← Truth in the Barrel
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- [00:00]
Michael Ware
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Amy McGrath
Welcome back, everyone, to special Devil's Cut edition of Truth in the barrel. I'm Amy McGrath. Today we are discussing the role of Christianity in public life and politics in America. We are lucky to have Michael Ware, the founder, president and CEO of the center for Christianity and Public Life, and he's written a really important book called the Spirit of Our Politics, Spiritual Formation and the Renovation of Public Life. Welcome, Michael.
- [00:31]
Michael Ware
Hi. So good to be with you. Glad to have this conversation.
- [00:35]
Amy McGrath
Well, it's an important one right now, and I'm really thankful that you would come on the show and talk to us because there's a lot to discuss at the moment here about Christianity, public life and what's happening in America.
- [00:50]
Michael Ware
Yeah, absolutely.
- [00:52]
Amy McGrath
Well, let's start out. You're the CEO of the center for Christianity and Public Life and want to get your take on what is the state of Christianity and public life in America right now.
- [01:08]
Michael Ware
Yeah. So, you know, it's a big story. Faith plays a really important role in this country and our history and our present and our future. And in a lot of different ways. As, you know, as you've traveled the country, traveled Kentucky, there are just so many different permutations of a religion and religious experience in this country. I'd say maybe a few things. One, America remains exceptional when it comes to religion, comparative to a lot of other places in the world. And religion is the source of so many Americans sense of self, sense of their place in the world, sense of community. That's really important to understand about America. Large number, around 40%, depending on the poll of Americans, say that their religion informs their daily decision making. The vast majority of Americans are religious. It's actually hard to think of another meaningful marker, another meaningful characteristic that binds Americans together than religion. Now, not all Americans are religious, but there are more Americans who are religious than are male or female or who are Democrat or Republican. And so that's really important. That being said, we've seen over the last 20, 30 years, though, it's there's some data to suggest it's plateauing, but we've seen a rise in religious disaffiliation, a decline in church attendance and regular participation in religious life compared to where America was 30 years ago. I think a lot of people thought that that would mean that religion became less important, less salient in American life. But I actually think that pressure on religion has actually increased the conflict and salience that we see in the religious and political landscape in such a way that religion in some ways hasn't declined in importance. But Actually has increased in importance. And I think we'll be able to talk about some of that. Maybe just one more comment I make is I think that the ways in which religion is being, and specifically Christianity is being misused has brought to the light in a different way and for different people, the good things that religion brings and can bring. In a way that is, in some way, it's encouraging to me, you know, like in the same way that I think some people understand the importance of character among those in public office. That seems like a really important thing to people who maybe didn't think so 15 years ago. So we're seeing through the misuse of public office, the misuse of religion, I think a rising awareness of, of the value of good character, the value of religious contribution that is positive.
- [04:37]
Amy McGrath
It's interesting what you say, that religion has increased its importance maybe in public life. And I, I, I think you're right about that, if you really think about it. The one of the things that that has concerned me is, you know, in my experience in the military, commanders, leaders, many were religious.
- [05:05]
Michael Ware
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Amy McGrath
And that was very important, that they go to church, that they be seen. I always felt like that was good.
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Michael Ware
Yeah.
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Amy McGrath
But they were very professional in the sense that in public life, meaning in public service, in the United States of America, where we have a Constitution that has the First Amendment, which, you know, says that we don't try to push religion onto citizens, where citizens can have and whatever faith they want or no faith at all. And that's not a requirement.
- [05:45]
Michael Ware
That's right.
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Amy McGrath
And all of these things in public life. I found that the leaders, at least in the military, did a very good job of, of not making that front and center. And I worry that that has shifted a little bit, this sort of underlying litmus test now in the military, for example, where you have to be this.
- [06:11]
Michael Ware
Yeah.
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Amy McGrath
Or you will not be promoted or you will not be welcomed in this unit. And of course, then more broadly in America.
- [06:22]
Michael Ware
Right. Well. And I think that is important for the integrity of our armed services and the functioning of our armed services for just the culture of the institution itself. But as you note, the military has always had a sort of representative role of America at large. And the Constitution does offer a, it says you can't apply a religious test for public office. Now, that doesn't mean that citizens can't ask about the religious commitments of public officials. It doesn't mean that public officials can't talk about their faith and how it motivates them, but it does, does mean that we have. There can't be a legal standard in which what it means to be or be qualified to be a good public official, a good member of our armed services, a good citizen, equates to being a good standing member of a particular religious tradition. And that's, that's vital for the integrity of the institutions, but, but also for the integrity of our religious communities. It's, it's, it's been very important not to conflate what it means to be a good citizen with what it means to be a good Lutheran or Catholic or Muslim or Jew. And that's something that's worth not taking for granted.
- [08:04]
Amy McGrath
Well, tell us why a little bit about your work at the center for Christianity and Public Life and why, why you started this work.
- [08:13]
Michael Ware
Yeah. So at ccpl, which is now about three and a half years old, we think the state of our politics is in large measure a reflection of the state of our souls, the, the kind of people we are. This is the beauty and weakness of our democracy. It can't quite get around the kind of people we are. You. And so at ccpl, we care deeply about what we call formation. We care deeply about, we think things like character, virtue are not just private goods, but public goods and qualify as areas of knowledge that the public ought to consider and ought to guide public decision making. So that's the formation piece. We think that the kind of people we are has much to do with the kind of politics that we have. And I'll just say this is like just a, in some corners, a much easier and obvious argument to make now than, than it was, than it was 10 or 15 years ago. But so, so that's, that's one piece. And then we care a lot about the public imagination and particularly the contributions that the Christian faith tradition, ideas, people have to make for and to the public good. So we think that Christianity has a lot to offer for the good of our communities and everyone in them. We think that they should be an offering, not an imposition. So we talk about Christian contribution to the public good in a spirit of loving service, not as an act of imposition. And we think that these contributions are a clear, as you look at our past, they're clear as you look at our present and what so many religious people and communities and churches are doing today, making up large percentage of the social safety net in our country, providing an enormous number of volunteers and other resources like physical space, obviously the contribution to the sort of moral and character fabric of our communities. We think that that is important for America's future too. And maybe I just finally say we think that the ideas can't operate separate from the nature of the person. That actually at the center of the Christian faith in particular is not a series of right answers or policy points, but a, but a person, the kind of person you are. And that, that has to be at the center of any Christian public, public witness or representation.
- [11:08]
Amy McGrath
It's interesting you talk about the public good because I had a really good discussion a couple of months ago with some Catholic nuns, sisters of Loretto in Kentucky, and they talked time and time again about common good.
- [11:23]
Michael Ware
Yeah.
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Amy McGrath
And that we needed to have public officials who understood and tried to work for the common good. I've heard in my time in politics people say, well, religion isn't necessarily Democrat or Republican.
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Michael Ware
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Amy McGrath
But I've, we have a leader in this country right now in our president who has stated some really in my belief, kind of terrible things.
- [11:55]
Michael Ware
Yeah.
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Amy McGrath
You know, he, he stated at the National Prayer Breakfast.
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Michael Ware
Yeah.
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Amy McGrath
He questioned why anyone who is religious or Christian would ever align with the Democratic Party.
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Michael Ware
Yeah, yeah.
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Amy McGrath
And I just, I feel like how do we square this right now with, with, with the leader of our country weaponizing religion in this way?
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Michael Ware
Well, you can't square it and you don't square it. He went to the National Prayer Breakfast, which intentionally recruits and asks both Republicans and Democrats to co host the breakfast. They specifically recruit and ask Democrats to attend the breakfast. And like the sitting president does so often, he will use and appropriate any setting for his own personal grievances and self interest, including prayer breakfast. At a previous prayer breakfast, after Arthur Brooks, the former head of the American Enterprise Institute, a right of center institution, gave a talk about loving your enemies directly drawing on the teachings of Jesus, Donald Trump took the podium to say essentially how he thought that that was all hogwash. And really loving your enemies doesn't really work and you're a fool if you do it and so, or if you even aspire to love your enemy. So that's who he is. That has been clear from the outset. And I don't think that there is any squaring those kinds of comments with any genuine articulation or reflection of, of the faith. Yeah.
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Amy McGrath
Why do you think there, there aren't more Christian leaders like yourself saying that?
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Michael Ware
I definitely understand the question. I do think it's, it's important to be said. And you know, I have, as you and I have discussed, I have my criticisms of the Democratic Party. For those who don't know, I worked for President Obama, not a longstanding sort of Democrat. I worked for one person and have significant critiques of both parties. But one thing that's important to say is tens of millions of religious people, including tens of millions of Christians, voted for Barack Obama, voted for the Democratic candidate in every national election. And so I think sometimes the discourse that happens among those who are opposed to the current president or would not vote for the current president often, or it can, I think, a privilege, actually do exactly what they don't want to do, which is to say that the, those who identify as Christian and support Trump are somehow more Christian than those who don't. And so we look at, like, a number, like 81% of, you know, white evangelicals supporting Trump in 2016. I think it was depending on the, on the exit poll around that in, in 2024, you go like, look at, look at, you know, that's a, that's a big number. But, but actually, if you, like, take Christianity as an aggregate, all the different Christian expressions, it's, it's, it's, it's much closer to an even split. And of course, there are some Christian communities that overwhelmingly or, you know, strong majority support support the Democratic candidate. What I am looking for are expressions of Christianity within both parties, people who support candidates across the spectrum that maintain a distinctiveness from those political agendas. The question is, is, is, is your politics sending you to faith or is your faith sending you to politics? And that is a critical divide. And frankly, for me, that's something I'm, I'm more, I care much more about that than where people might, might sort of identify something. A lot of, you know, as I travel the country, people are often surprised to find that just because they register as a Democrat or Republican doesn't mean that you need to agree with every jot and tittle of the party. Like, like, right, like, like actually, one of the, Our political parties are supposed to serve as a vehicle for mediating difference, not just between the two parties, but within the party itself. And so, so that is just a, a critical role that Martin Luther King used to talk about. Faith as a thermostat. It can change the temperature as opposed to just reflecting back and reading the temperature of a room. And that's what faith can do at its best.
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Amy McGrath
Yeah, that's really interesting. And so that leads me to ask you, where do you think both parties misunderstand religious voters or Christian voters? Where do you think both parties misunderstand?
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Michael Ware
I think it is both parties read faith and sort of their interest in faith, they Read it as to their advantage to sort of claim affiliation and representation, but very little exchange. And so, you know, you say, well, I agree with this, this tradition on this issue. And so therefore, you know, I, you know, this politic politician, you know, I, I, they have to vote for me. I ran religious outreach for a presidential campaign. And one thing I noticed, looking at the history of religious outreach in American politics is the easiest way and the most manipulative way and the most common way, as I was coming to the job to see, is the easiest way to do faith outreach is to say, well, if you're a real Christian, you'll vote for my candidate and vote against the other candidate. And so it's an appeal to identity. And I think that's really misguided. I think religious people are wrong to respond to it in the way that some do. And I think it leads public leaders to actually miss out on much of what they have to gain from learning from religious communities and traditions. So instead of looking to sort of like, claim religious voters, claim civic leaders, elected officials, candidates approaching religious communities say, you know, you're serving the poor in your experience. You know, we're having a big debate right now about affordability. Do you know who knows a lot about affordability? The person reaching a leading outreach ministry at any local congregation in your state or your district. We're having a big debate about artificial intelligence and what it means for the future of, like, what it means to be human. Do you know who's thought a lot about what it means to be human? Religious traditions that have built up over millennia, these ideas in ways that aren't just reactive to the moment. And so I think both parties could do a lot from just seeking viewing religion as a constituency to actually viewing religion as a resource. Leadership and religious voters, and frankly, all citizens could do a lot to incentivize that kind of relationship, as opposed to being sort of easy sells for,
- [21:15]
Amy McGrath
for,
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Michael Ware
for being appealed to through, like, sentiment and symbols. Like, those things matter to an extent. And, you know, it suggests something about a candidate or public official sort of openness to you. But I think religious voters would, would do themselves a favor if, if they weren't so easily wooed by just so symbolic and rhetorical appeals.
- [21:48]
Amy McGrath
No, that's super interesting because you bring it from the, from the voter's perspective that you wish, you know, maybe some religious voters would think a little bit more broad, but also from the leadership perspective of elected officials and maybe parties to not look at religious voters as just a constituency, like, you know, well, we won young voters overall. We won the older voter or the population. It is, it is a factor in how people vote the same way as maybe your identity, your gender, your ethnicity, maybe your background, being in a union or the type of job that you have, or your pocketbook. And the policies that are happening right now. It is a factor, but it may not be the most important factor even in your vote.
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Michael Ware
It may not be, it also will not conform to the, the modes and ways of our politics. And so sometimes politicians think, well, what do I have to say to someone who attends sort of that church? I know the median voter in that church isn't going to vote for me. That may be true. But also if you actually listen and if you actually show up, it turns out that actually a lot of folks in that socially conservative evangelical church have real concerns about labor and wages in this country. Turns out that they have real concerns about social media use and how social media companies are affecting the lives of their children and families. And of course, you know, the converse works as well. I mean, I think, and, and I think we'll, we'll, we'll get, we'll get into this. But I think Donald Trump has, was part of his success, not the whole of it, but part of his success was suggesting a different kind of Republican approach to things like Social Security and Medicare. Now, whether they've lived up to that in office is another question. But an open to labor, an openness, and we'll definitely talk about this, a less jingoistic approach to American foreign policy. These kinds of things appeal to a broad set of Americans in different ways that sort of were outside the early 2000s, sort of a la political alignment. And maybe it doesn't cause people to vote for you, but it allows for room for conversation that wasn't there previously.
- [24:41]
Amy McGrath
Yeah, no, that's a good point. And, and you have argued in the past that political life should flow from life in Christ.
- [24:48]
Michael Ware
Yeah.
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Amy McGrath
And what, what do you think that actually requires of Christians in America right
- [24:58]
Michael Ware
now, in this moment, requires joyful confidence in the Lord. I, I think that there is a, there is a misinterpretation out there that the, the, the problem for those who are concerned about the influence they see of religion and Christianity on our politics? I think that there's a common misinterpretation that the most belligerent sort of forms of political engagement, religious political engagement, that the cause for that is too much confidence in one's faith. So, you know, if only, if only they just didn't believe so strongly they would be more amenable in public life. That is not my experience. My experience is that the most belligerent forces in our politics are actually profoundly insecure. Insecure in many ways, including in their own faith, insecure and uncertain that their faith actually meets the test of reality. And that's why they need to grip so hard. That's why they're worried that if they aren't always on guard, reality might prove to be unkind to their faith. But Christians who have joyful confidence in the Lord, and there's a philosopher by the name of Dallas Willard who defined joy as a pervasive and constant sense of well being. And at my events, Amy, over the last, last few years, I've, I've asked audiences how often, how, how many of you would describe our politics as full of a pervasive and constant sense of well being. And, and it's a laugh, but it's a good question for Christians to ask themselves. When politics is in the room with me, when I'm talking about politics, when I think about political life, is there a baseline, foundational, pervasive sense of wellness? Or when I think of politics, am I prone to contempt? Am I prone to condemnation? These are important things to wrestle with as Christians, and I think as citizens, we need to think about whether the kind of politics that we want can flow from a mode of participation that is totally inconsistent with that aspiration. In other words, like if, if we want a politics that cares for those who are left out, what, what the Catholics would refer to as a preferential option for the poor, for the outcast, can we have a mode of politics that is fueled by self interest and contempt? And I think so. Often we have political strategists who say that we are going to get to a healthier politics just on the other side of a politics of hatred and trivialities. And I just want to say that's not going to work. The outworkings of our politics are going to be consistent in real ways with the nature of our politics. So if we want a politics that has kind outcomes for the American people, we can't do that through a politics of, of belligerence. And, and Christians can bring that. One of the, one of the reasons why, and to be clear, I think this is not exclusive. You know, I think we, we all know. I know I've worked with people who are not Christian, who are serve in public office, who advocate politically in tremendously healthy, wonderful ways. Ben Sasse is a friend of mine, and I think for those, you know, Ben received Ben Sasse, former United States Senator from Nebraska. He received a cancer diagnosis. I disagree with Ben on a number of political issues, but in my, in my first book, I talked about how grateful I was that as a sitting United States Senator, Ben Sasse would say that politics is not ultimate. Now, that is the kind of statement that can, like, frankly, like, if when pastors say it, it's kind of like, well, yeah, you're a pastor. Like, yeah. What was hurtful about Ben saying it was clearly, he wasn't saying politics is unimportant. Like, like, clearly he dedicated it. But what he was saying was my confidence is not in my political positions or in my winning. Winning a political battle. Right.
- [30:24]
Amy McGrath
Or in, in that seat or in that race.
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Michael Ware
Exactly. And if Christians could bring that, if Christians could bring that to politics with an ability to foreground the common good, as opposed to politics as just this forum for self expression, this sort of forum for getting what you can get out of it by any means necessary, that would be a benefit to everybody. And Christians have unique resources to draw on because we, we actually don't think that our security is found in political outcomes. And our politics could use a. Could use some of that.
- [31:03]
Amy McGrath
That's super interesting because there's a lot going on right now, Michael, you know, and we are, are now at war in the Middle east yet again. And one of the things that there's so much going on and it's changing literally by the day. But one of the things that that has struck me about this is we see political and religious leaders all claiming to be political and religious leaders almost on the opposite side of this in Christian. Let me give you my examples.
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Michael Ware
Great.
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Amy McGrath
Pope Leo.
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Michael Ware
Yeah.
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Amy McGrath
The head of the Catholic Church in the world has been pretty outspoken.
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Michael Ware
Yeah.
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Amy McGrath
About this war, why it was started, that it needs to end.
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Michael Ware
Yeah.
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Amy McGrath
On the other hand, we have our Secretary of Defense, our Secretary of War, who is, you know, he has brought religion and Christianity into his job, into his leadership in ways that we have never seen, and is championing this as the reason for this war. I want to read you a few things where he said a day ago in a Christian prayer and worship service at the Pentagon, where he prayed for Almighty God to, quote, pour out your wrath and break the teeth of the ungodly. Quote, he begged the Almighty to sanction, quote, overwhelming violence against those who deserve no mercy. Now, you contrast that with Pope Leo.
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Michael Ware
Yeah.
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Amy McGrath
And you're. And it's just so tremendously opposite.
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Michael Ware
Yeah.
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Amy McGrath
And. And I, I just, I'm not sure I have Ever seen that kind of rift?
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Michael Ware
Yeah.
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Amy McGrath
In, in Christian thinking about something as of the magnitude of War and Peace before.
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Michael Ware
Yeah. What I feel really strongly and confidently, sort of categorically is that the spirit with which this administration has communicated about this war, the lack of sobriety, one thing that always stuck with me. After he left office, George W. Bush went to Saddleback Church with Pastor Rick Warren around his book Decision Points. And for those who don't know, Saddleback is one of the most influential evangelical churches in America, tens of thousands of members. And Pastor Rick was interviewing George W. Bush about his book and they got to the point in the book where Bush was talking about the decision to go to war in Iraq. And Bush sort of played out his, sort of his, his, his arguments and the, the, the decision he made and why he still thought that that was the right decision. But it was clear watching online the level of, the level of sobriety that he had. But the audience was so, my read on it was the audience was so uncomfortable with the weight that that was evident in Bush's own playing out of his reasoning that when he got to the point of I still made the right decision, essentially, I'm paraphrasing, of course, there was kind of a rah rah hoot holler USA sort of applause from the audience and Bush cuts them off and says, no, that wasn't what I was doing here. And I think for any commander in chief I know, President Obama, the decisions related to sending our service members into combat weighed heavily on him. That is a healthy and righteous response to the weight of what you're doing and of the responsibility and the flippancy, the memeification, the jingoistic mockery with which official communications from this president himself, but also the department, the War Department, that goes contrary to any, a standard of responsible, ethical, respectable military or national leadership. And that sort of flippancy with life itself ought to be roundly condemned and does America no service, no service at all. I could go on, but I feel very strongly and of course this is the same sort of tone that they bring so often, not always, but so often to so much of their agenda. And it is, it's, it is not befitting of the office they hold.
- [36:45]
Amy McGrath
Yeah, I agree. And I'm not, I'm not sure when America where is going to soberly look at this. The hypocrisy here is very plain and simple. We have a president administration who mocks Biden for getting out of a war and losing 13 service members in the process of getting out of a war. And on the turnaround, he starts a war in which we've already lost 13 service members.
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Michael Ware
Yeah.
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Amy McGrath
There's a hypocrisy there.
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Michael Ware
Yes, yes.
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Amy McGrath
Where you blast the administration for getting out of a war, and then you turn around and start one. And sometimes I feel like, where is the outrage? We have lost the same amount at this point, and the outrage doesn't seem to be there. Where are we as a nation going to really look at that hypocrisy at some point? We have to.
- [37:45]
Michael Ware
Yeah. Citizens need to ask of themselves, are there things I'm excusing now that I have justifications and rationalizations for that that I just would not have excused with a different political party or with a different person in charge? And. And if so, is that a dereliction of the limited responsibility and influence, you know, I have and prompt the question of where are my convictions and where are my principles? Where is my sense of right and wrong coming from? And I'm just gonna say, if it's coming from the interests of a political party or politician, no matter who that is, that is not solid ground to stand on. And our democracy needs more out of you. Needs more out of me. Needs more out of us than that.
- [38:51]
Amy McGrath
Well, very well said. And we all thank you for your work and your voice. It matters right now. It's really interesting conversation, and I appreciate you being on this Devil's Cut edition of Truth in the Barrel.
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Michael Ware
Yeah. I appreciate your friendship and leadership, Amy, and love serving with you.