Unmasking Diagnoses Later in Life: Autism and ADHD in Adults | S4E4

Summary

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Turning Points: Navigating Mental Health

Episode: Unmasking Diagnoses Later in Life: Autism and ADHD in Adults (S4E4)

Release Date: October 9, 2024
Host: Frances Lease, Tufts Health Plan | Boston Globe Media

Brief Overview

This episode shines a spotlight on adults who receive an ADHD or autism diagnosis later in life. Through deeply personal stories and expert insights, the show explores what it means to realize, often decades into adulthood, that the daily struggles and self-criticisms one faces have a name—and how this realization can reframe an entire life. The episode features:

• The lived experience of Grace, a late-diagnosed autistic woman with ADHD
• Psychiatrist Dr. Thor Bergerson on the systemic barriers to adult diagnosis
• Journalist and author Eric Garcia on shifting the autism narrative from “fixing” to accepting and supporting

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Grace’s Story: Discovery and Transformation

00:09–09:40

• Early Career Struggles:
  Grace recounts starting her career in public teaching, encountering overwhelming challenges, and feeling unsupported. “I can look back now and say that some of the problems I had as a teacher, I felt at the time that it was all my fault.” (00:30–00:38)

• Diagnosis as Turning Point:
  Her diagnosis of ADHD and autism at age 35 recontextualized a lifetime of feeling “consistently inconsistent”—a label her husband gave her early in their marriage. She describes the internal conflict:

  “Autism says get it done right now... stick to the standards... My ADHD says I don’t give a rat’s fanny. I’m going to do what I want.” (02:05–02:34)

• Path to Diagnosis:
  The spark for self-recognition came when her daughter was flagged as possibly neurodivergent. Grace read her daughter’s ADHD symptom list and realized:

  “I have every one.” (02:52)
  She sought diagnosis, remarking, “It was eye opening, it was transformative. No, I still make a lot of mistakes, but at least now I understand why.” (03:30–03:57)

• Lack of Support and Family Resistance:
  Both her older daughter and her spouse struggled to accept her diagnosis, compelling Grace to navigate the journey alone:

  “As I was going through the discovery phase, I won’t call it a honeymoon because there’s nothing sweet about it… I had zero support. I really worked at it alone in the beginning.” (04:13–04:55)

• Resilience and Identity:
  Grace found tenacity within herself, driven by a sense of justice and refusal to let challenges derail her goals:

  “When I realized this is identifiable… this is something I can learn about.” (05:09–05:54)

• Friendships and Finding Her Tribe:
  She reflects on how friendships operate for her:

  “Squirrels like me, we burn through friendships… But when I made a friend that we were sharing the same characteristics… talking really helps. Misery loves company… My squirrel friends that I met over the past 20 years, we’re still best friends because of that bond.” (06:10–07:30)

• What Diagnosis Changed:
  Grace likens ADHD to “being in a slow rainfall of post-it notes,” describing both the challenges and clarity of self-understanding:

  “A diagnosis is not an end all. That’s just the key. You still have to open the door. You still have to walk into the room.” (08:54–09:40)

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Dr. Thor Bergerson: Systemic Barriers and Misconceptions

10:27–18:54

• Genetic Roots and Family Patterns:
  Dr. Bergerson’s research began with structured interviews in families of diagnosed children, quickly revealing ADHD’s strong genetic component. (10:27–11:42)

• Barriers to Diagnosis:

  • Diagnosis often depends on being sufficiently “disruptive”—especially for boys—leaving many undiagnosed if they present as quiet or simply underperforming.
  • Economic inaccessibility of private neuropsychological testing and limited insurance coverage
  • Shortage of psychiatrists familiar with ADHD, particularly for adults:

    “There are disruptive barriers, economic barriers, there’s the stigma… There’s a pretty slim chance I think you’ll be diagnosed.” (11:55–13:53)

• Presentation in Adults:
  Most adults enter treatment due to depression, anxiety, or persistent gaps between intent and achievement—often at the urging of someone close. The underlying ADHD frequently goes unrecognized because:

  “There’s a gap between what they know they can do and what they actually do. And that gap is always pretty big and consistent.” (14:15–15:21)

• Misconceptions About ADHD:

  • Not always about hyperactivity or disruptiveness
  • Unrelated to intelligence
  • Medication is not always required, and is not inherently addictive
  • “It’s not a personal weakness,” as many believe

    “I see a ton of very intelligent people with ADHD. It’s just a matter of like, making things come to fruition that you think about.” (15:41–16:40)

• Advice for Suspected ADHD in Adults:
  Dr. Bergerson suggests starting with routines for sleep, movement, and nutrition. If basic routines remain a challenge, it’s worth seeking professional assessment:

  “If you think it’s like holding you back and it’s making you unhappy, then it’s worth talking to somebody about.” (17:45–18:54)

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Eric Garcia: Shifting the Narrative on Autism

19:46–27:09

• Critiquing the “Cure” Approach:

  “We focus too much on trying to cure autistic people, not enough of trying to help them live fulfilling lives.” (19:46)
  Eric’s journalistic and personal lens challenges decades-old misinformation, noting how autistic people’s voices have been largely excluded from shaping policy.

• History and Diagnostic Blind Spots:
  Autism was not even recognized as a distinct diagnosis in the DSM until 1980; misdiagnosis and misunderstanding were rampant:

  “It was often seen as a symptom of schizophrenia. You’d see autism and childhood schizophrenia kind of used interchangeably.” (21:12–21:36)

• Disparities in Diagnosis and Cultural Stereotyping:

  • Black and Latino children are frequently misdiagnosed with behavioral disorders instead of autism
  • Assigned-female children’s symptoms often overlooked, as shyness or intense interests don’t “fit the stereotype”

• Importance and Limits of Self-Diagnosis:
  Social media (e.g., TikTok) provides community and visibility, but cannot replace a clinical evaluation. Still, Eric affirms self-diagnosis as valid, particularly for those who lack access to formal diagnosis:

  “I think self diagnosis is valid for all the reasons I just articulated… TikTok and Instagram are not a diagnostic tool. They’re a good way for you to connect with people… After that, you almost have to do your own homework.” (23:39–24:32)

• Strengths and Nuanced Perspectives on Autism:

  “The fact that neurodivergent people are so able to focus singularly on something is incredible… The same autism that makes me a good reporter is what lets me drive a car. Those things are not mutually exclusive.” (24:51–26:11)
  He cautions against excusing bad behavior as a feature of autism, emphasizing the importance of continued learning and humility:
  “If you have sincerity… and a desire to learn, that’s all you need.” (27:09)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Grace, on the conflict of dual diagnoses:

  “Autism says get it done right now… My ADHD says I don’t give a rat’s fanny. I’m going to do what I want.” (02:05)

• Grace, on self-discovery:

  “I honestly believe that depression in people with ADHD is often situational… Because we make a hell of a lot of mistakes. Every day, all day long, I make mistakes. So me getting diagnosed, it was eye opening, it was transformative.” (03:10–03:57)

• Dr. Bergerson, on misconceptions:

  “It’s not a personal weakness. I think that keeps people from coming to see me.” (16:40)

• Eric Garcia, on shifting priorities:

  “We focus too much on trying to cure autistic people, not enough on trying to help them live fulfilling lives.” (19:46)
  “The same things that make me a good reporter… is the same autism that makes it possible for me to drive a car. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.” (26:11)

• Eric Garcia, on learning:

  “When you first start learning about autism… you’re going to mess things up… If you have sincerity, you have a willingness and a desire to change and to learn, that’s all you need.” (27:09)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:09 – Grace describes her teaching career and struggles
• 01:16 – Grace’s diagnosis of ADHD and autism
• 02:05 – Internal conflict between ADHD and autism
• 02:52 – Discovery via daughter’s symptom checklist
• 04:13 – Family reaction and support
• 06:10 – “Squirrel” friendships and finding community
• 07:53 – Rainfall of post-it notes analogy
• 10:27 – Dr. Bergerson: background and genetic findings
• 11:55 – Barriers to diagnosis (“disruptive enough,” economic barriers)
• 14:15 – Adult presentation of ADHD
• 15:41 – Busting misconceptions about ADHD
• 17:45 – Advice for undiagnosed adults
• 19:46 – Eric Garcia: motivation for writing about autism
• 21:12 – History of autism diagnosis
• 23:39 – Self-diagnosis and social media
• 24:51 – Strengths of neurodivergent people
• 27:09 – Emphasis on humility and continued learning

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Episode Takeaways

• Receiving a late diagnosis can be a revelation—but comes with its own challenges, such as a lack of support, self-doubt, and outdated social perceptions.
• Supportive communities—whether “squirrel friends” for ADHDers or online groups for autistic adults—are critical for healing and growth.
• Longstanding misconceptions, economic barriers, and systemic biases keep many from accurate diagnoses.
• Viewing neurodivergence through a lens of acceptance and individualized support, not “fixing,” is key to empowering those with ADHD and autism.
• Expert advice suggests routines, self-education, and seeking assessment if symptoms are disruptive to one’s happiness.

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Transcript

[A]

I was educated to be a teacher. I went into public teaching. Soon after I was married.

[B]

Meet grace. After nearly 30 years at the IRS, she retired only to find that Stane home was driving her up the wall. So she decided to dive back into her first love, teaching.

[A]

I can look back now and say that some of the problems I had as a teacher, I felt at the time that it was all my fault. I realized now I was not getting the support that I needed as a first year teacher, so I quit. After my first year, Grace gave teaching.

[B]

Another shot and this time it felt different, better, even empowering.

[A]

This year's fantastic.

[B]

Nearly 30 years after she first tried to pursue this passion as a public school teacher, she's finally thriving. So what changed for Grace?

[A]

I was not diagnosed at the time and I wasn't aware that there was a problem that I needed to address.

[B]

At the age of 35, after years of struggling in the workplace, Grace was diagnosed with ADHD and autism.

[C]

Foreign.

[B]

Welcome back to Turning Points, a show about navigating mental health, sponsored by Point 32 Health. I'm your host, Frances Lease, and today we're talking about how a diagnosis late in your life can drastically change your world. We'll hear from experts and learn about the barriers to diagnosis, the interplay between ADHD and autism, and how these conditions shape the lives of those who live with them every day. But first, let's hear from Grace again. She shared with me how autism and ADHD intersect in her life.

[A]

There's a terrible conflict between the two when you have the two combined because autism says get it done right now. It has to be perfect, stick to the standards. A lot of pressure in my head to be organized, use an organizer, keep my room clean, all these real stressors. My ADHD says I don't give a rat's fanny. I'm going to do what I want. So I demand organization. I often don't follow through. So when my husband and I were first married, he would say, I am consistently inconsistent.

[B]

So when did you first discover that you were neurodivergent and how did this discovery change your life?

[A]

It was before I was 35. My then 8 year old daughter came home with a little pamphlet from school and the teacher was concerned about her neurodivergency at the time. And I looked at those 17 symptoms of ADHD and I said, yep, I have everyone. And it changed my life because I took the steps necessary to get a diagnosis to work through. Is it depression? Nope. I honestly believe that depression in people with ADHD is often situational that you get angry at yourself, caused you depression. Because we make a hell of a lot of mistakes. Every day, all day long, I make mistakes. So me getting diagnosed, it was eye opening, it was transformative. No, I still make a lot of mistakes, but at least now I understand why.

[B]

Imagine discovering that the challenges you faced for decades have a name, a reason behind the chaos. For Grace, that realization was powerful. But the path to that diagnosis wasn't easy and it wasn't without resistance, especially from those closest to her.

[A]

My children, my senior daughter, still won't accept it. My spouse, it was really hard on him. It really was. And as I was going through the discovery phase, I won't call it a honeymoon because there's nothing sweet about it. I said to him, I'm walking this journey and I have to figure out. It became paramount that if I'm going to keep my job, I'm going to have to do something. And when I realized that my ADHD was my threat, it became paramount that I deal with the issue. And I had zero support. I really worked at it alone in the beginning.

[B]

Walking that journey alone is something so many people can relate to, especially when the support system just isn't there. But Grace didn't let that stop her. She dug deep, finding resilience in places she never knew she had.

[A]

Part of being on the spectrum is you have a real strong, powerful urge for social justice. You demand balance. And I'm tenacious and I'm not going to let this problem prevent me from meeting my long term goals. And long before my diagnosis, when I was in high school and I failed history, I did not let that keep me from graduating. When I realized that, hey, this is identifiable. This is not a ufo. This isn't something at the bottom of a black hole. This is something that I can learn about.

[B]

Yeah, so you just had an innate strength to say, hey, I'm going to figure this out, however I need to figure it out, and it'll all come together. So what has helped you the most since then and how do you approach life differently now that you have all this knowledge?

[A]

Squirrels like me, we burn through friendships because whether the object is a friendship or it's a hobby, we're gonna find out everything we can about it and finish it.

[B]

In the ADHD world, some call distractions squirrels. Think of it like a squirrel that keeps darting off after every new thing. It's the same for them. They might dive into different interests or ideas with a lot of energy, but not always for long. This can Happen with friendships, hobbies, or projects. It's not about losing interest. It's just how their attention works.

[A]

And we're not going to go back. And friendships are no different. But I found that when I made a friend that we were sharing the same characteristics, same problems, that talking really helps. Misery loves company. You get a chance to talk to somebody and have the same experiences and you get that comfort. Like, yeah, I'm not as crazy as I thought I was. And my squirrel friends that I met over the past 20 years, we're still squirrel friends. We're still best friends because of that bond. And they are the ones that helped me get through it.

[B]

So it's like once you find your tribe, you're like, okay, I don't need to explain all these things to you.

[A]

Bingo.

[B]

If I disappear, you'll be all right. You know, I'll be back. And then there's not that pressure.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Because you guys have a full of understanding of each other.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So as a result of all these experiences that you've had, how do you approach life now?

[A]

So as I get older, I'm thinking, I wish I would have known this stuff 40 years ago. And so every day is not just a new day. It's like, what's next? Bring it on. ADHD is like being in a slow rainfall of post it notes. And I've read this analogy where you reach out and you grab a post it note and then toss it. You reach out and you grab another one because all day long you're filled with stimuli. And when you get a post it note that says, shut up, you talk too much, I go, yeah, I overshare. And nobody told me I ever shared until like 5 years ago. A squirrel said, hey, do you ever get in trouble for talking too much? I said, yeah. Ooh, do you think maybe this might be. Yeah, it is. So you slowly learn.

[B]

So you kind of been in the season of just discovering more about Grace.

[A]

Yeah. Without the diagnosis, I would have fumbled along, being rejected, being deep in problem with depression, problem with self esteem, problem with overeating. I would have had a lot more problems and not understanding why. It's amazing just having the diagnosis, having somebody say, come on, we need to talk. You know, can I please give you a call? Let's talk. It changes everything. A diagnosis is not an end all. That's just the key. You still have to open the door. You still have to walk in the room.

[B]

Grace's journey highlights the ongoing process of self discovery. Whether we have a diagnosis or not, it's about finding those moments of clarity, seeking support and embracing what makes us unique. But Grace's story is just one of many. Countless adults are diagnosed with autism or ADHD later in life, often after years of struggling with symptoms. To really explore these challenges and figure out how to handle them, I've invited some experts to join us. First up is Dr. Thor Bergerson, a psychiatrist who's been specializing in ADHD and co occurring disorders for over 20 years. He's the founder of ADHD Boston and has dedicated his career to improving the lives of adults with adhd. Let's hear how he got into this field.

[C]

When I was a medical student, I was interested in working with kids, but I wasn't sure. So I was at University of Vermont and I started working with a child psychiatrist who is doing research and his research was family studies of adhd. So they'd have an identified patient which was a child with ADHD. This is back in 1994, 1993, and we, we, meaning me and three other students, would get in a van and we'd have these old big laptops and we'd go to the family house of the child identified, you know, with ADHD and we'd interview their whole family. So it was a structured interview, sort of like the diagnostic criteria. And then we'd compiled that data and what we found was, and what other researchers found was that there was a strong genetic component to adhd. And so many of the people I saw were coming to see me for symptoms of adhd, so they were describing it, they didn't necessarily knew what they were describing. So I found myself treating, and I was treating children and adults.

[B]

Dr. Bergeson's career from those early days of research clearly influenced his understanding of ADHD and why so many adults are still undiagnosed or misdiagnosed. It's a problem that goes beyond just medical barriers.

[C]

So it's usually boys who are diagnosed, and they're usually diagnosed because they're disruptive and because they cause problems in the classroom for the teacher, for other children. Sometimes those kids are diagnosed because of those problems. And so what happens is if you're a student and you're not disruptive and, and you're just not doing well, then nothing really happens unless you have parents who are very much involved, which is hard to be. And so what happens is some kids get tested and that's either educational testing at school or private neuropsychological testing, which costs a lot of money and a lot of insurance doesn't cover. So there are Economic barriers. There are behavioral threshold barriers. You have to be disruptive enough. So when I was young, I'm 55, it was is very rare. And I grew up in rural Vermont, very rare for any child to be diagnosed. In fact, I don't have any recollection of anybody being diagnosed with adhd. So there are very few psychiatrists who treat it and also very few child psychiatrists. So most ADHD is diagnosed and treated by primary care. Doctors, like pediatricians and pediatricians are a little more comfortable with it. But as you get older, adult primary care physicians are not comfortable with it. And I think in some cases they're told not to treat it if they see it because you prescribe medicines that are controlled substances. So there are a lot of barriers. So there's disruptive barriers, economic barriers, there's the stigma. There's a lot of stigma around it because it is considered a disorder, which I disagree with that, and it's considered a disability. Depending on where you're from, who your parents are, who your teachers are, there's a pretty slim chance I think you'll be diagnosed.

[B]

Yeah, I would agree with that because I was a counselor at a high school and a middle school. And like you said, if you don't have parents who are involved or aware or notice or see any subtleties or themes, it can really fly under the radar. So speaking of that, what does a later in life diagnosis look like compared to a childhood diagnosis, then?

[C]

It's really the same stuff, it's just a different setting. So most adults present in my office complaining of being depressed, discouraged, anxious, and not getting things done that they intend to do. So despite having very good intentions and having plans, at the end of the day, they find out they haven't done many of those things. And so a lot of times they're encouraged by a partner or a co worker or a friend because it's very difficult to evaluate yourself, to see yourself. Adults generally come in to see me because of work problems, relationship problems, or some people come in educated. They know what the symptoms are. It's very easy to do this kind of research and take tests on the Internet and so on. So a lot of people just suspect that they have it. But most of the time it's because there's a gap between what they know they can do and what they actually do. And that gap is always pretty big and it's consistent. It's like consistently there.

[B]

Yeah. So there's this really strong desire I'm thinking about, like my cousin has an adult diagnosis of adhd. And there's so much that she plans and wants to do, but gets so overwhelmed by the tasks and everything else. So what are some of the most common misconceptions about ADHD that you encounter in your practice?

[C]

So the misconception would be that it means that you're hyperactive, impulsive, all over the place, like sort of the classic boy with ADHD who's, like, throwing things around and running around. And a lot of people say, well, that's not me. I don't do that. The other misconception is that it has something to do with intelligence. It has nothing to do with intelligence. I see a ton of very intelligent people with adhd. It's just a matter of, like, making things come to fruition that you think about. Another misconception has to do with the treatment, and that the treatment is you have to take medicine. You don't have to take medicine, although it helps, and that the medicine is addictive, which it's not. And I guess that it's kind of an excuse or a weakness. Right. So a lot of people think if I'm saying that I can't direct my attention where I want it to go, that's a personal weakness. They internalize it. And that's also a misconception. I think they keep people from coming to see me.

[B]

Yeah, I guess you're doing a lot of debunking. Right.

[C]

It's really making people feel comfortable. Like, I just try to make people feel comfortable.

[B]

Yeah. Because like you said, a lot of people do come in and think that something is wrong with them or they're less than because they're not able to do xyz. But Susie over there can do it, but I can't. Why can't I do it? That sort of narrative. So I see that it's a lot of rewriting the narrative that they've sort of been holding onto for a lot of years.

[C]

That's true. Yeah. And I think that it helps if you know somebody who has it and who you respect and who has been treated, and they're saying, hey, this really helped me. That happens a lot. And that that's probably part of the reason there's a little bit less stigma around it.

[B]

It's clear that addressing ADHD requires more than just medication. It's about a holistic approach, including lifestyle changes and understanding the individual's unique needs. For those who suspect they might have ADHD but haven't been diagnosed, Dr. Bergeson's advice is a great starting point.

[C]

My advice would be to try to put into a routine the things that your body needs. So, you know, you need to sleep, you know you need to eat and your body wants to move, so you really need exercise of some sort. So if you think you have ADD and those things are not consistent, like you eat when you're starving and you sleep when you're exhausted and, you know, you maybe walk sometimes to work, sometimes you don't or whatever, and that's the only exercise you get. Then if you do those things or you, you try your best to keep those things in a routine and it's still very difficult for you to stay on task or to listen or to follow through, then I think it's worth, you know, consulting somebody. So, you know, talk to your primary care doc. That's the first thing you can take. You know, online screening tests. If you score high on those, it's likely enough that you might want to talk to somebody about it. And I would say my advice is don't be shy about it. If you think it's like holding you back and it's making you unhappy, then it's worth talking to somebody about.

[B]

I like what Dr. Bergeson said because if that one conversation can really shift your life, I think it's definitely worth it. Whether it's finding a routine that works for you or seeking out professional help, the journey to understanding and managing ADHD is personal and unique. And I hope today's discussion provides some clarity and encouragement for those navigating their own paths. Next, we have Eric Garcia. Eric is a Washington, D.C. based journalist focused on politics and disability. He is currently the senior Washington correspondent for the Independent and the author of We're Not Changing the Autism Conversation. His book has been praised for its insightful exploration of autism, which aims to shift the narrative around autism from one of trying to fix autistic individuals to one of acceptance and support. Here's Eric telling me what inspired him to write the book.

[D]

Well, I think we focus too much on trying to cure autistic people, not enough of trying to help them live fulfilling lives. But, and that leads to the next question of like, well, what does it look like to live a fulfilling life as an autistic person? And I think about it also as a political journalist. And my train of thought was essentially, bad ideas about autism are perpetuated and as a result, policymakers have just not been able to have good information and therefore they've created policies about autistic people that didn't have the input of autistic people and therefore could have some Negative outcomes, not everybody's fault. But it was just like that was how it was created. And so that led me to work on this book and really think hard about what is it like to be autistic in America? How did we get here, and what are the alternatives?

[B]

Eric's motivation to write his book stems from a broader desire to address and correct misconceptions about autism. It's a powerful reminder of how important it is to view autism through a lens of understanding and support, rather than solely focusing on fixing it. Well, I love the idea of just sharing more about the inner world and the inner workings of someone who has a diagnosis of autism. So why do you think that later in life diagnosis occur and what is overlooked in childhood and why?

[D]

Yeah, this is great. I think we have to remember autism didn't get a separate diagnosis in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, also known as the DSM, until 1980. For the longest time, it was seen as a symptom of schizophrenia. It was funny. When I was researching the book, I would often see autism and childhood schizophrenia kind of used interchangeably in articles.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Seen over the 60s and 70s. So take that into account. I think that's why you've seen a lot of elderly people. It's fascinating talking with elderly people who got diagnosed later in life because there just wasn't that knowledge that just didn't exist. I think the other thing is that after 1980, the diagnostic criteria expanded, but on the other end, again, I think a lot of it is cultural. So, for example, a lot of black and Latino kids are misdiagnosed with behavioral disorders when they really just have autism.

[B]

Eric also highlights how gender stereotypes and societal expectations contribute to the misdiagnosis of autism. This reflects the need for more nuanced approaches to diagnosing and supporting autistic individuals.

[D]

A lot of girls people assign female at birth are generally misunderstood. Girls are almost expected to be demure and shy. So, like, when they aren't chatty or talkative, they fly under the radar. And then also, weirdly enough, I think, like a lot of the special interests that girls have just aren't clocked as autistic. So, like, for example, I think that, like, if a teenage girl knows all of the backstory to Taylor Swift's latest song and notices, oh, the chord progression is similar to this one. So it's a hat tip to all that. That's, you know, a special interest.

[B]

You know, it's that attention to detail almost does that.

[D]

Attention to detail, pattern recognition. It's like like everybody else, I'm a huge Taylor Swift fan. Like everybody else on the planet right now, it seems. But like a lot of the accounts that I follow, they admit they're autistic, and that's their special interest. So I think that late diagnosis happens because culturally we see, oh, autism. They're obsessed with numbers or they're obsessed with trains or they're engineers or they're coders.

[B]

Yeah. So it's just really a serious miseducation that's happening.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah. And this goes to the other thing, and forgive me, I'm gonna go on a soapbox. A lot of people say, ask me what I think about self diagnosis. I think self diagnosis is valid for all the reasons I just articulated. So unless you need the piece of paper for, you know, accommodations, I could see how that happens. Now, the other question that I get a lot is like, well, what about TikTok? So, like, I think social media is a great gateway. I think it's a phenomenal gateway. I mean, there's a study from Drexel University showing that a large chunk of TikTok videos about autism are just misinformation or just not true or they're exaggerated. TikTok and Instagram are not a diagnostic tool.

[B]

Yes.

[D]

They're a good way for you to connect with people and say, like, oh, these things that I've gone through and I've experienced. Yeah. Other people experience them. That's cool. I'm less alone. But after that, you almost kind of have to do your own homework.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

You know, you have to read books, you have to read. You have to say. And, like, if it jives with everything you feel and you don't need the piece of paper, then I can totally understand it.

[B]

And so, based on our conversation, I mean, we can see that neurodivergent behavior isn't wrong. It's just different. Can you elaborate on the strengths and unique perspectives that people with autism have?

[D]

Yeah, I want to be clear that my benefits and strengths and advantages are different from everybody else's. But I think the fact that neurodivergent people are so able to focus singularly on something is incredible. The fact that the kind of social office politics are kind of second language to them allows them to question why there are certain cultural mores. And at the same time, I want to be very clear, and this is part of the second book that I'm writing right now, there's almost this idea that, like, a lot of these autistic savant males, like, it's almost like, oh, well, they're autistic. Of course they don't understand social niceties. And of course they're kind of a jerk to people. No, that's malarkey. No, that doesn't give you an excuse to treat people wrong. That doesn't give you an excuse to say horrible things. But I think that, you know, it does help you to question social norms and social understanding, and I think that goes a long way. Yeah, it's important to recognize that the same things that make me a good reporter, which makes me very bullish, and being willing to ask very aggressive questions when I'm a reporter in my day job, is the same autism that makes it possible for me to drive a car. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

[B]

Right.

[D]

People say, oh, you're saying autism is a disability. Autism is a disability. It's in the DSM.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Autistic people fought to include autism in the ADA Amendments Act 2008. I mean, I think that a lot of it is also systems. I think that a lot of people, when you say that, like, oh, well, you don't really understand autism, I think they take it almost as a personal front. But then what I say is, like, it's okay. I didn't understand autism for a long time, and I'm autistic. I still don't understand autism. That's why I'm writing books about it. That's why I'm writing about it, because I want to learn more about it. When you first start learning about autism, when you start learning about disability as a whole, you're going to mess things up. You're going to say things that you regret. There's stuff that I wrote earlier in my writing about autism that I no longer believe, but I got a lot of things wrong. But I kept coming back to the well. I think that if you have sincerity, you have a willingness and a desire to change and a willingness and a desire to learn. That's all you need.

[B]

Eric is right. The narrative is changing over time, which is amazing because we just need more credible information and resources out there to help people understand this at a much deeper level. Here's what I learned from these conversations. First, Grace's experience shows us the power of community, how finding your people can be the key to not just surviving, but thriving. It's a reminder that even when the path is unclear, we're not walking it alone. Second, Dr. Bergeson's work highlights the many barriers that prevent timely ADHD diagnosis in adults. These include economic constraints, behavioral thresholds, and systemic stigma. And finally, Eric's journey underscores the importance of shifting the conversation around autism. His work encourages us to move away from trying to fix autistic individuals and instead focus on acceptance and support. Thanks for listening and visit globe.com turningpoints One word for more information on mental health care and resources. Turning Point Season 4 is produced by Point 32 Health, the parent company of Harvard Pilgrim Healthcare and Tufts Health Plan, and the Studio B team at Boston Globe Media, in partnership with Pod People, Point 32 Health, Harvard Pilgrim Healthcare and Tufts Health Plan are committed to connecting the community to personalized solutions that empower healthier lives.