Are Little House on the Prairie and Deadwood the same show?

Summary

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TV Is Good — Episode Summary

Podcast: TV Is Good
Date: July 13, 2026
Hosts: Alan Sepinwall & Kathryn VanArendonk
Episode Title: Are Little House on the Prairie and Deadwood the same show?

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Overview

In this episode, Alan and Kathryn dive deep into two TV Westerns—Netflix’s new, much-debated adaptation of Little House on the Prairie (2026) and the iconic HBO drama Deadwood. They examine the surprising thematic overlaps between both shows, interrogate the American myth-making baked into "pioneer" narratives, and consider how “revisionist” takes on old stories wrestle with past and present politics. The episode offers sharp, funny, and sometimes personal critique on why frontier stories still fascinate, how TV adapts difficult source material, and what it means to be "good" TV now.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Why Pair Little House and Deadwood?

• Purposeful Contrasts and Parallels: Kathryn sets up the episode by noting that both shows, set during westward expansion, present mythic (and messy) narratives of American origins.
  • “They are almost exactly the same story... Deadwood and Little House take place within five to eight years of each other. It’s just what the camera chooses to look at—and what gets left out.” (43:51)
• Both shows are about settler optimism, peril, and delusion—one through family drama, one through crime, profanity, and mud.

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2. Deep Dive: Little House on the Prairie (2026 Netflix)

a. The Cultural and Literary Legacy (06:41–14:26)

• Kathryn’s Personal Context: Introduces the original books by Laura Ingalls Wilder, their messy politics, and the fraught, foundational place they hold in American children’s literature.
• American Myth-Making: The original TV series (1974–83) veered away from the books, leaned into Christianity, and contributed to America’s self-image.
  • "They're an important part of American literature for children, which was a kind of nascent category of book altogether in the early 20th century... Just as like an American propagandizing thing. They're very messy politically." —Kathryn (09:48)
• Historical Timeline: Noted that the stories retell American expansion as benign “family adventure,” often eliding (or distorting) the dispossession of Indigenous people.

b. The New Series: Hopes & Fears (20:10–32:47)

• Kathryn’s initial qualms:
  • "The trailer felt like a trailer designed to say: this is Little House for trad wives... for the Yellowstone crowd. My brain just started doing alarm bells." (20:10)
• Subverting Romanticism: The pilot reveals Pa’s incompetence immediately; disaster strikes at their first river crossing.
  • "You’re like, oh, this show knows Pa’s an idiot. And I was like—such a relief." —Kathryn (23:47)
• Casting Notables:
  • “This is the hottest Pa Ingalls has ever, ever been… Luke Bracey, it's just the perfect amount of sun on his face, his beard. Is this the hottest man who has ever been on television?” —Alan (24:05)

c. Wrestling with Race & Rewriting the Past (25:46–32:47)

• "Woke" Little House?
  • Introduces new or reimagined characters: Black doctor (Dr. Tan), Black shopkeeper, Osage neighbors.
  • Alan points out the show’s conscious effort: "It’s Little House gone woke, which we’ll talk about in a little bit..." (19:23)
• The "Malaria Episode": Both find it the weakest; it tries to dramatize the family’s isolation and the arrival of Dr. Tan, but leans on odd dream sequences and clunky exposition (27:26–31:15).
• Struggles to Balance History and Modern Messaging:
  • “I don't know if there's going to be more pushback for this show for being woke or… for it being not woke enough. I also don’t know who this show is for.” —Kathryn (32:20)

d. The Audience & The Show’s Achievement (34:15–40:29)

• Nuanced Endorsement: Both hosts ultimately recommend the show, especially as a rare, reflective, and responsible stepping stone for families to discuss American history and its myths.
  • “For me, that’s why I love this show. I actually think this Little House is astonishingly good... It was so good at giving that... I’m so grateful to this show for giving me that opportunity to share it with [my kids] in a way where I could also tell at every moment that the show was wrestling with how to do that in a responsible way.” —Kathryn (34:15)
• On Direction and Authenticity:
  • “This show is entirely directed by women, and two directors are Indigenous… the kind of choice you make when you’re being very, very conscious and careful of what it means to make Little House in 2026.” —Kathryn (38:01)
• Still Romantic, Still Beautiful: Despite its critical eye, the show can’t (and maybe shouldn’t) fully escape the romance of the prairie.
  • “If you are worried that the thing that you're gonna come away with is an overly romantic vision of the West... I can't say that it doesn't do that, because it is also so beautiful.” —Kathryn (38:35)
• Alan’s Balanced Critique: Some parts can feel too neatly reconciled or "fantastical" (37:49). Occasionally it's “a little too much toward the fantasy of, you know, can’t we all get along,” but the push-pull is honest.

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3. Deep Dive: Deadwood (HBO, 2004)

a. The Essential Premise and Characters (41:56–43:51)

• Alan gives a brisk but colorful overview of the pilot, setting, the real history behind the cast, and why David Milch wanted to explore lawlessness evolving into law.
• Historical perspective: Deadwood, like Little House, is about “settlers” on recently dispossessed Indigenous land, grasping for legitimacy through commerce and violence.

b. “It's the Same Story, Just Filthier” (43:51–48:30)

• Everything is Grimier: Kathryn marvels at the muddy, shambolic world of Deadwood vs. the idealized prairie—the “dirtiest person they have ever been in their lives” (44:44).
  • “This is all of Little House, but with the lid off... It’s nature, red in tooth and claw." —Kathryn
• Morality and Myth: The characters long for myth, but crash into reality; the “gold rush” as capitalist fever-dream.

c. Making Law, Making Myth (48:30–54:37)

• Opening Scene, Core Theme: Alan spotlights the opening hanging-as-law scene.
  • “This is a distinction without a difference, or it’s everything... It’s the code—there must be a way we all agree on, or nothing separates law from mob.” (49:38)
• Characters Knowing Their Place:
  • “They may have foolish dreams, but other than Brom Garrett, they know: maybe this'll work out, but probably not.” —Alan

d. “Poetry, Profanity, and Libertarian Bullshit” (57:27–59:25)

• Signature Language: Alan performs a famous extended “cocksucker” monologue (57:27) to underscore how Deadwood’s extravagant swearing is part poetry, part anthropology, and a thumb in the eye to sanitized Western myth.
  • “I may have fucked up my life flatter than hammered shit, but I stand here before you today beholden to no human cocksucker!” —Whitney Ellsworth (as read by Alan, 57:27)
• Libertarian Dreams: Even the most “decent” character is really, in TV’s mythos, a libertarian fantasist. “That would be pretty recognizable to Rose Wilder Lane, founding mother of American libertarianism.” —Kathryn (58:44)

e. Introduction of Characters, World-Building (55:25–61:17)

• From the soap grifter to the tragicomedy of Brom Garrett and his laudanum-numbed wife, Deadwood is ruthless about the fate of the naive—and the cost of “the American dream.”
  • “This show is always funny, even as it is some of the bleakest shit you have ever seen on television.” —Kathryn (60:17)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Little House’s revisionism:

  “I don’t know if there’s going to be more pushback for this show for being woke, or...for it being not woke enough. I also don't know who this show is for.”
  —Kathryn, 32:20

• On Pa Ingalls' hotness:

  “Is this the hottest man who has ever been on television?”
  —Alan, 24:05

• On the draw of western myths:

  “It’s what I like so much about it, while also being ultimately unresolved. Because there is no resolution you can have.”
  —Kathryn, 39:29

• On Deadwood’s opening morality play:

  “This is a distinction without a difference, or this is everything.”
  —Alan, 49:38

• On Deadwood vs. Little House:

  “They are the same show, actually.”
  —Kathryn, 62:31

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Essential Timestamps

• [06:35]–[14:26] — Kathryn’s summary of the Little House books, TV legacy, and mythmaking
• [20:10]–[24:05] — Initial fears & reactions to the 2026 Netflix adaptation
• [25:46]–[32:47] — Conversation about the show’s handling of race, politics, adaptation
• [34:15]–[40:29] — Who the Netflix Little House is for and why both hosts recommend it
• [41:56]–[43:51] — Deadwood: pilot setup and cast
• [43:51]–[48:30] — Parallels between Little House and Deadwood
• [48:30]–[54:37] — Core theme of law vs. lawlessness, opening execution scene
• [57:27]–[58:44] — Deadwood’s signature profanity/poetry
• [60:17]–[61:17] — On Brom Garrett’s tragic naiveté
• [62:31] — “They are the same show, actually.”

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Tone & Takeaways

• Warm, witty, analytically sharp, but never detached: Alan and Kathryn balance reverence for TV history with well-timed mockery, personal stories, and meta-critique.
• For listeners new and old: The summary is robust enough for complete newcomers to understand not just what happened in the episode, but why these TV artifacts matter—politically, culturally, and personally.

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Next Week

• New Show: “Lucky” (Apple TV+, starring Anya Taylor-Joy & Timothy Olyphant)
• Classic Show: “The Queen’s Gambit” (Netflix miniseries)

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Episode Verdict

Was the TV good this week?

“It was really, really, really good. Really good TV week.”
—Kathryn (62:56)

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Transcript

[Alan Sepinwall]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hey guys.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Welcome to Giggly Squad, a place where we make fun of everything, but most importantly ourselves. I'm Paige Desorbo. I'm Hannah Berner. Welcome to the squad. Giggly Squad started on Summer House when we were giggling during an inappropriate time. But of course, we can't be managed, so we decided to start this podcast to continue giggling. We will make fun of pop culture news. We're watching Fashion TR pep talks where we give advice, mental health moments and games and guests. Listen to Giggly Squad on ACAST or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alan Sepinwall]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. I'm Alan Sepinwall. I'm a TV critic.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

I'm Katherine Van Arendonagh. I am also a TV critic.

[Alan Sepinwall]

We are friends and neighbors and we love to talk about TV with each other.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

And now we are going to talk about it with you.

[Alan Sepinwall]

That's right. This is the TV is Good podcast. And every week we're going to look at one current show and one classic show as we try to answer an important question. Is the TV good?

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

This week we are going to be talking about the new Netflix adaptation of Little House on the Prairie. And this adaptation asks, what if we sat down and actually thought about what the hell's been going on with Little House on the Prairie all this time?

[Alan Sepinwall]

And then we will be looking at a very similar tale of westward expansion when we welcome you to fucking Deadwood. It can be combative.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

That's right. So a couple things to talk about. First of all, obviously the most important and most vital thing for everyone to know, right up top, is that after complaining about how my daughter had posters on her walls and that none of them were of TV shows, she then designed a poster for me of Patricia from Widow's Bay. And it looks exactly like all of her posters of like, Olivia Rodrigo and like Taylor Swift lyrics and things where it's all kind of, you know, tones of pink and red. And it's Patricia with the gun. And it says, like Patricia Final Girl worldwide tour, which is particularly funny given the context of Widow's Bay. And so I, I, I get to now have this lovely image in my life. And yeah, I should never complain about her posters situation.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I've seen this. It is extraordinary work by her. I think, frankly, you should make that your new background for this and take down the, the flowers, which are lovely, but probably should look, if I can have April Ludgate holding the severed heads of the Black Eyed in mind.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

You should put it right here.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Exactly. Get more on Brand.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay. Several questions.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yes.

[Alan Sepinwall]

One, you complained about this to me. Did you complain about this to her or did she do this of her own accord?

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

I. I mentioned to her, I didn't complain about it, but I was like, how did you pick the things? And then we talked.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay. And did. And like. So she understood your level of sadness that there was no television amongst.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

She. She understood that it was a question that I was asking without tempting to be pointy about it in any direction.

[Alan Sepinwall]

All right, this is fair. This is fair. All right. Then the second question is, how much of Widow's Bay has she seen versus, like, this was just her Googling stuff.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yes, she has seen one and a half episodes of Widow's Bay and she has enjoyed those episodes very, very much. She saw episode four with Patricia and loved it and was obsessed with Patricia. And then she wanted to watch the part of episode five with Chris Fleming in it, because I have written about Chris Fleming and she has seen quite a lot of Chris Fleming's comedy and likes Chris Fleming very much. And so she wanted to see him be a shaman. And I am open to her watching as much more as she wants, but she is concerned about the episodes that are scarier than that. So, you know, we'll see. We'll see how it goes.

[Alan Sepinwall]

This is fair. Eventually we're going to have to do a whole thing on, like, what media we have either forced on our children or have been startled to find our children doing. But that is for down the road.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yes.

[Alan Sepinwall]

In the shorter term, it's now we're in the middle of July. We have a new Patreon poll up for the options of what you guys want to do for our August Patreon episode. One of those is a returnee, the runner up from our last poll, which is Surf, Dracula, Sugar, and the whole problem of TV shows that take a whole season to get to what their actual premise is. The other ones, if you're a Patreon subscriber, you can go find out. Vote. We are bound by your vote, so, you know, gonna have to do whatever it is you say, but whatever it is, we're looking forward to it. These are all exciting choices for us.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yes. And as is always the case, if there are other ideas that come to you where you're like, I really want this, or like, a thing we mentioned in an episode, feel free to send us an email or throw it into a comment under one of the polls and. And we will keep track of what seems to be of interest to all of you.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, it's patreon.com tvisgoodpod and tvisgoodpodgmail.com all the socials and YouTube and Apple and Spotify and where, wherever it is that is easiest and best for you to comment. We are checking it all.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yes. Yes, we are. And we are so appreciative to all of you who have been hanging out on the Patreon and interacting with us on socials and things. It's really. It's really nice to be feeling like we get to hang out with this little group of people who are excited about, you know, about Patricia, obviously.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Mainly Patricia. Yes. But, yeah, I mean, there's. There's a thing where pretty much like at least twice a week, you and I are texting back and forth and something has gone wrong and I just text. Okay, Podcast is canceled. I'm glad. We have not actually canceled it yet. Although I feel like we've come. We've come close a few times.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Couple times. Couple times. And you never know. Tomorrow could be the day you could be listening to the last episode and we don't even know it yet.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I'm just saying sometimes things are said that I feel like can't be unsaid.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

It's true. It's true. It's a rancorous and deeply fraught relationship, and I think it's going to stay that way. Okay, it's time to talk about Little House on the Prairie.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Oh, you've been itching to do this. I'm going to hang back a little on this one.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

I really, really have been itching. This was one of the ones that I saw episodes of long in advance. Let me. So first I saw first there was a. Maybe it was a year or more ago, I did a panel with Dana Fox, who is a writer and wrote on Wicked for Good. And I was talking with her, had a great time on that panel, and then discovered after following her on Socials that she was not one of the sort of close producers, but one of the distant producing partners for a new Little House adaptation. And I thought, what? A new Little House adaptation? What is that gonna be like? For all of the reasons that we will get into, it is a very complicated text to be wrestling with in the year 2026.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Well, I feel like we should go back. What is Little House on the Prairie?

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Well, I'm gonna get there. This is. This is the contest.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay, sorry, sorry.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

This is the context.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay. I'm hanging back, I'm literally moving my chair back from the microphone.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

So then, then I get, then, then the trailer comes out. And the trailer. It was a couple months ago and the trailer was all of the things I was concerned about when I first learned that there was going to be a new Little House Show. It is a family of four people, Ma and Pa Ingalls and their two daughters, Laura and Mary. And they are 19th century American settlers and they are in the prairie, in the beautiful prairie of Kansas, and there is nothing around them. And over voiceover Laura Ingalls, who is the narrative point of view character, says she's the youngest daughter, says, like, we were a family and we were so alone in the great prairie. And I thought, oh, no. Oh, dear. Because this is a really fascinating and messy foundational text for American life. Little House on the Prairie is a series of books. It is one is actually the. I think it's the third book in a series of books by Laura Ingalls Wilder. They were written beginning in the 1930s about Wilder's childhood in Wisconsin, Kansas, Minnesota, in the 1860s, 70s and 80s through to her adulthood. And they tell the story of her family moving from Wisconsin. Her father moves them from Wisconsin to Kansas to try to settle land because he's been told that there's free land for the taking in Kansas. They then leave Kansas and move to Minnesota where they spend a couple years. And then Pa's like, fuck that. I can't handle all these people in Minnesota. I gotta try to go.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I believe that's an exact quote from, from the fourth book.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yes, that's on the banks of Plum Creek, obviously. No. And so then he, he, he moves back out into Kansas again and, and settles. And that is where the family eventually lands. And the, the books are a, they're an important part of American literature for children, which was a kind of nascent category of book altogether in the early 20th century. And so they are foundational texts for children's literature just as a thing, as like an American propagandizing thing. They are very messy politically because although I think the books themselves have a fair. Have at least some nuance to how they think about whiteness and Manifest Destiny. They're obviously also products of being written in 1930 about the years 1868, 1870, 1875. And they are edited and there is a lot of collaboration by Laura Ingalls Wilder's daughter, Rose Wilder Lane, one of the founding mothers of American libertarianism.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Oh, great. Yeah. That's awesome.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

So you, you Read these books. I was read these books. My mother read my sister and I these books when we were little. And it was impossible to listen to her reading them without even then in the like early 90s, all of these lenses happening at once. The. You're a child narrator because Laura narrates herself as a child thinking about what this was like. And so you're imagining yourself on the prairie and the beauties and the hardships and the sort of innocent naivete of your position as a child in this family. But then I was also listening to my mother being like, why is Pa moving them 40 miles away from the nearest other human being? But she was also beguiled by, fascinated by the sort of American myth making of them, even as she was constantly also narrating her own response to like, Pa, you dummy. But none of that was in the books. And so I grew up with kind of both of those voices in my head at the same time. And then there was also, after the publication of these books and their financial success then happened to be fueling the libertarian movement in the United States. Then there is this landmark, wildly successful, nine season long Little House on the Prairie television show starring Michael Landon that begins in 1974 and is very loosely related to the books. They have many of the same characters and one of the same settings, but are doing a real freestyle on like, what these books are actually talking about their relationship with American founding myths. There's quite a lot. There's actually more Christianity in the TV show than in the books, I think, which is an interesting sort of position for them to be holding. And then just as a fun bit of historical synchronicity, the books take place. Little House on the Prairie takes place. It's a little bit squishy, but it's like 1868, 1870s. The Little House on the Prairie TV show started in 18 or in 1974. This current TV adaptation is coming out in 2026. So the TV show has an episode that takes place in 1976 in which.

[Alan Sepinwall]

That airs in 1976. Set in 1876.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Set in 1876.

[Alan Sepinwall]

This is one of the ones I've seen which we'll get to.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yes. So they are celebrating the American Bicentennial by telling a story about the American centennial. And we are now then returning to this show at the semi sesquintenio. I don't. Look, I'm not gonna. I'm not even gonna talk to the 50th. And we all feel normal and cool about that.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Everyone's happy, everyone is happy.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Okay, so that's. That's an intro to Little House. There's more. What do you got, Alan?

[Alan Sepinwall]

All right, well, so how much of the show, the original show, did you watch?

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

The original Little House was something I would say see on TV and then would perpetually try to watch because I knew the books very, very well. And so it was constantly seeing it on daytime TV in, like, many, many years later reruns, and being like, I don't understand. Where's the Prairie? Like, where's the hardships? Why is Mike. None of these stories are in the books. I was fascinated by Nellie Olsen, who sort of is in the books, but he's in a much bigger deal. I mean, it was one of my earliest examples of. Is this canon? What's the real source text here? Like, this timeline has nothing to do with the timeline that I know. And I found it mostly frustrating and baffling in that regard.

[Alan Sepinwall]

So it debuted when I was, like, a toddler, basically, but it was in syndicated reruns for a long time, and it ran long enough for me to be aware of television. And I. I was one of those things where I was like, oh, this is a girl show. Because, you know, the opening credits are Melissa Gilbert, like, Running through the Tall. And so I would occasionally see it because the thing about being a Gen Xer is there was only so much TV on, and sometimes you're flipping around and that's what you watch. And so I've seen maybe five episodes of the show. The ones I have the strongest memory of are there's one where they play football and they invent the forward pass.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Sure. Great. Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Several about the older sister Mary going blind and dealing with that. I've seen the centennial episode, although that I only saw last year when I was doing a listicle of, like, the best Fourth of July episodes. And that's a very good one. And I have seen they did a couple of, like, sequel TV movies after the show ended, one of which involves Pa Ingalls blowing up the town of Walnut Grove because he does not want the evil businessmen to be able to control it.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yes.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And so I've seen all that. So it's Michael Landon and Mino Palouse.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

And as a fun fact, it's because Michael Landon wanted to blow up the set because he was so mad about the idea of the set ever being used for something that was not Little House on the Prairie.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Exactly. All right. So my kids have read at least some of the books. I've never read them. So, like, I know Nellie Olsen sucks. I know enough, but not a ton. So, for instance, when I was watching this show, the show is based on the actual Little House on the Prairie book. The family is moving from the little house in the big woods in Wisconsin to Kansas. There's some sort of dark thing that recently happened to them that inspired them to move. And it will shock you to learn that this is sort of information gradually teased out over the course of the season until there's a flat. Not. It's not a flashback episode. Is it a dream sequence episode? How would you describe it?

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

It's sort of both. I am, that is, I think, the weakest episode of this season.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes, I would agree with that. So you've got Alice Halsey as Laura Ingalls. She is again our narrator, Luke Bracey as Pa, Crosby Fitzgerald as Caroline, and Skywalker Hughes as Mary. And then a bunch of other characters, some of whom I assume are in the books. Like is Dr. George Tan, played by

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Jocko Sims in the book, but has been quite rewritten for the purposes of this adaptation.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay, so they come to this town of Independence which is being put on Osage land. And everyone just assumes, all right, well, the government will come in and make a treaty.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Well, the town itself has already been purchased and is not from the Osage. Yes, but Pa. And this was historically the case. There were flyers all over states like Minnesota and Wisconsin and Michigan trying to get white settlers to come out to Kansas and the Dakotas and Nebraska, I assume, and settle these lands. Even though they belonged, they were sort of being actively belonged to the Osage nation. And the idea was that you tell all these white people that there's free land out there, they go out, they settle it, not realizing that the government does not actually own it and that the this is Osage or other tribal land. And then essentially you, you astroturf a, a, a war between you. You allow this white nationalism to sort of sweep over, sweep over Manifest Destiny and take over this land so that the government has an excuse to be like, we have to defend these people. We come in and then, and then force the indigenous people from that land. Pa does not realize that the flyer that he received about Freeland is lying to him.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes. So that that's going on. They have. They' nearest neighbors are an Osage family. And Laura befriends their daughter, Golden Eagle. The town doctor is black Georgetown, played by Jocko Sims. The shopkeeper is a black woman. So there it's little house has gone woke, which we'll talk about more in A little bit, but so they set up all these things. It is not the setup of the show, which was based on a later book after they've moved to Walnut Grove, Minnesota. I think Mr. Edwards, their other neighbor, is the only other character you might know, and he's played by Warren Christie. So you said the trailer gave you qualms.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yes, I had like rosemary qualms.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Talk about

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

felt like and feels like a trailer designed to say this is little house for trad wives. This is little house for the Yellowstone crowd. This is. This is this family that we are just going to pretend that they are. This is the books. This is actually very similar to how the books treat Laura's point of view. Again, written from 1935, where it's like they have gone out into the middle of nowhere. They have chosen this place to build a home. Pa. You know, somehow a guy, Mr. Edwards, shows up to help them. But they are entirely on their own, making this homestead out of nothing except their own hard work and resilience. And to get to any other resources, any other people is, you know, days and days of walking or riding once they get horses and it is. They are like on. It's like they are on Mars. And of course, this becomes, you know, reading it now in 19, the 1990s, when I was a kid and then now again in 2026 is your brain is just screaming about all of the ways that it is eliding the politics of that experience and what. What those years were actually like and what people like families like the Ingalls were doing. And I was worried that the show was going to do exactly that. And the opening scene does the very first scene of the first episode of this show is Laura in voiceover. This ador. Like a really strong performance by Alice Halsey as Laura Ingalls. It was my family and we had to move out from the big woods. And you can see these images of this. This iconic covered wagon trundling by itself. And it skips ahead for a second. You see these images of them in the prairie. And she is looking out over this vast empty space. And it's like. But we were a family and we were gonna make it together. And you're. My brain is just doing alarm bells. Alarm bells, right? And then the second scene goes back a little tiny bit without being like, oh, we're not actually there yet. You're just suddenly not in the prairie anymore. You are instead at this river crossing. They have. The wagon comes up to this river and there is this ominous piano that is. Has Sort of fallen apart. And Laura's like, ma, why did they leave this piano here? And Ma's like, it was probably just too heavy for them to take. And you're like, that's such a weird image. And Pa looks across to the other bank and he's like, there's wagon tracks over there. This is a totally fine place to cross. And he gets them all loaded up into the wagon and they head out over the river. And wouldn't you know it, the water is way too deep. The horses freak out. The wagon goes tilting precariously over to the side. All of their food is ruined. Ma gets injured. Their beloved family dog, Jack is swept away by the current. They stagger, go over to the other bank eventually. And you're like, oh, this show knows Pa's an idiot. And I was like, such a.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Such an idiot, but a beautiful idiot.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Okay, well, this is the other thing. This is the hottest PA Ingalls has ever, ever been. I mean, like, how did you feel about this? I had. I was. I was like many versions of myself at once while watching it. How did it seem to you?

[Alan Sepinwall]

So I'm aware, like, Michael Landon was considered one of the most beautiful actors on TV in his time, especially on Bonanza. But then he sort of matured and he becomes astonishing. Head of hair, just, you know, handsome man. Even going up to when he's an angel on highway to Heaven. Luke Bracey, I watched him and it's just like the perfect amount of, like, sun on his face, in his hair, in his beard. And I believe I did text you and our friend Linda, and it was like, is this the hottest man who has ever been on television?

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yes. I think the answer might be yes. He. His shirt is open at all times, even though it's a terrible idea for sun control. Like, just button it up, Pa. But no, he's never gonna button it up. And he's got a little scruffy beard, which, if you have seen Luke Bracey in previous things, it does not work without the beard. This is a particularly magic styling for this man. He has this beaming smile and he is able to convey something really important for this particular version of pa, which is he is well intentioned. He truly does not mean anyone any harm. He truly wants the best for his family. He wants this bright new future. He wants to get away from whatever dark secret it was that was in his past, which we'll get to eventually. But he also has no idea what the fuck he is doing. Like, none. None. So. So I'm curious how you thought about Dr. Tan. Like, tell me how you feel about Dr. Tan. And then I'm going to tell you what it's actually like in the books, because it's crazy.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Again, my only real knowledge of the books is the show. They're, you know. And to be honest, like, I had forgotten that the show was set in Minnesota. So, like, I'm watching the season. I'm like, huh? Like, the Olsens don't run the store, you know, I guess Nelly's just not going to be a character in the show, huh? They've added a black doctor. I guess I understand why they're doing that. So I was not aware that any of this was the source material. And again, I started thinking, all right, they're making a show from a perspective of 20, 26, and they want to acknowledge sort of the realities because we know that there were black professionals in the West. We know that, like, there were Indian settlers, some of who not Indian settlers, but some Indians who, like, got more westernized, who did not like.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

For the Osage tribe, which is a tribe that, as everyone knows from Killers of the Flower Moon, had this relationship with purchasing, making deals with the American government where they actually purchased their own reservation land. And there were more. There was more sort of economic, beneficial, economic relationship between the Osage and the American government than was the case for many of the other tribes.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes. And there's another character. I forget her name, but she is, like, she runs her own casino and is possibly a madam who's French. So it's sort of. I'm thinking, like, okay, they're trying to make a more progressive little house. And at the time, I'm curious, like, is this going to integrate with the text? So now tell me the actual Dr. Tan.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Right. So the malaria episode, which we both find frustrating, what happens is.

[Alan Sepinwall]

That's the one with the dream sequence.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yes. What happens in that episode, which is. I think it's episode five in the show. Four or five, as happens in the book, everyone gets very sick all of a sudden. And they, you know, first Mary gets sick, and then Ma gets sick, and then Pa gets sick. And finally Laura is the last one. She has to try to go out and get medicine, Raise. Get help, get medicine for them. Eventually, Dr. Tan figures out he, like, rustles some quinine out of. Out of the townsfolk and. And sets out and helps everyone. And of course, while they're all sick, they have all these dream sequences where you realize sort of the nature of the familial friction that drove them out to Kansas in the first place. I did not need this information, whatever. In the novel, this is the one place where Dr. Tan shows up is this malaria sequence. He does not exist as a character really elsewhere. And it is one of the strangest. Like, I remember being read this sequence as a child and being like, what is happening? They are all very, very, very sick all of a sudden. And because your narrator is Laura, the child, it's like I'm lying on the floor and I. I am so exhausted and so terrified, and I have no. And everyone around me is dying and I am crawling my way to try to get the water bucket because all I need is a ladle full of water. And then suddenly a man, a black man. I have never seen a black man before in my life comes into this home. And the description of, like, how white his teeth are against how dark his skin is, is so. Like. It is so vivid. And it is not she. She is. She loves and is so grateful for this man who comes in and saves their lives, but he is also so other to her because he is. Because she is so ill and out of her mind, and she has never seen anyone who looks like him before. And it is actually one of the more arresting and not obviously not like racially open and enlightened, but. But curious and compassionate depictions of, like, an interaction between this young white girl who has no idea that black people exist, and this doctor. This doctor saves their lives. They all know it and recognize it. And he is kind of. He is. He is this magical figure which obviously has all of its own terrible associations with how white people often envision black people in fiction. But it is so unconsciously just full of all of these feelings that she has about this black doctor. It is a very complicated image. And then he sort of disappears forever. And I think you can look at that scene and read it a lot of different ways in the book. It is most striking in comparison with the Osage in the book, who are entirely negative. They are like terrifying warriors who come in and threaten them and force them to leave, even though they should be allowed to be here. Like that. That is the depiction. Even though Pa does have a line in the novel that's like, I think they'd probably like to be peaceable, but, like, unfortunately, we're all here in this land together. And, like, what are you going to do? And you're like, pa, is that really. Was that really what's going on? And so the racial politics of the book are. Are quite complicated, but obviously really not what you could ever Put on television in 2020.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Isn't Ma in the books, like, sort of violently anti Indian?

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yes, Ma. So the show translates that into a. A softer version of Ma's fear because she's much. She's fearful for her family. She feels threatened. She's not racist because of just big racist feelings. She's like, I am threatened by the fact that, like, we are in this place and they are. They have come into. There's a scene where two Osage men just come into their house. And so the show attempts to turn that into something that is not about, you know, racial prejudice, but instead about Ma's specific physical feeling. Threatened. Obviously, that is also recreating that kind of dynamic. But. But the show. I think this is part of the question about this show that. That is interesting.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Let's get into this.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Like, I don't know, watching this, if there's going to be more pushback for this show for being woke or if there's going to be more pushback for it being not woke enough. And I also don't know who this show. I know who this show is for. It is for my kids. But I am curious whether that will actually end up being the audience that watches it and who the audience will be.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay, because we get into this. We talked about this in a previous episode about L, for instance, where it's like, you're making something based on IP and are like, how are the people who already know and love that IP going to respond? So, just to use a different example, but similar in some ways, when they revived Battlestar galactica in the mid-2000s, like the OG, fans of the original, stunningly mediocre at best, Battlestar galactica from the 70s were so deeply offended by almost everything that was happening, and they eventually called it, like, Geno Galactica in name only. And yet, like, a whole new audience found it, loved it, thought it was incredible. Our friend Mo Ryan's writing a book about it, so there's a lot there to deal with. But, like, that was one that was not in any way concerned about appeasing the previous audience at the TCA panel. I remember for Edward James Olmos on the stage said, you know what? If you love the old show that much, don't watch this. It's going to hurt you. And you could see the president of syfy Channel, Bonnie Hammer, like, burying her head in her hands, like, this is not what we want. This is not the message we want to spread. Eddie. So I do wonder, like, if. If you're somebody who loved Michael Landon and Melissa Gilbert and everybody else, and future Malcolm the Middle creator Linwood Boomer, like, is. Are you gonna find this satisfying or are you gonna find it? Like, it's. It's too different from the text that,

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

you know, I mean, it is much, much closer to the. To the books, and yet is also wrestling with the books actively at war with itself about how to depict parts of what those books are like and what. And not just what those books are like, but sort of the long arc of meaning for what those books. Books have been as American texts of. Of building the West. For me, I just. I feel like I haven't said this clearly enough. Like, for me, that's why I love this show. I actually think this Little House is astonishingly good. I watched all episodes of it with my kids and then realized as I was doing it that they had. They had had very little engagement with all of this material either, as the books, because I. Because of my own now very complicated feelings about those books, have not read them to my kids. And so this was their first version of Little House. I. We were talking about, you know, Osage land. We were talking about Malaria. We were talking about why Ma is so frightened. We were talking about Laura out there by herself in the prairie shooting rabbits. We were talking about how you got to dig a well, and then the air can be bad down. And that's a whole thing. I mean, these are the kinds of images of what. What life was like in the 19th century that I was fascinated by as a kid that my kids really have not had any access to. And it was so good at giving that to them. And I was. I'm so grateful to this show for. For giving me that opportunity to share it with them in a way where I could also tell at every moment that the show was wrestling with how to do that in a responsible way, which what I would be doing if I were reading Little House out loud to my kids right now, you know?

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah. And we've not mentioned yet the name of Rebecca Sonnenschein, who adapted the books and is the showrunner of the show. I agree with you. I think this is a really good show. I think that there are some stumbles here and there. The Malaria episode, obviously. David Mamet, totally normal guy. Nothing wrong with him whatsoever. He likes to say that backstory is bullshit. And while I would not go that far, I do think that there's a lot of time when shows like this, like, become a little too convinced that backstory is necessary. And I. I don't need to know they're. They're here. Something bad happened, enough to cut themselves off from everyone who knows them and everyone who cares about them. That's it. So I didn't love that. I think that there are occasionally times where it's. In its wrestling with all of these problems with the text. It maybe leans a little bit too far into the way we would like it to be. You know, there's. Yes. So, you know, so there's a scene in one episode. I won't say what happens or who's involved, but, like, for a while there, I'm thinking, okay, Emily, the black shopkeeper, is maybe being accepted a little too much by the town. And then there's a scene where it's like, oh, no, this person is just, you know, a. An awful, awful racist. You know, and it's like, I'm not happy to see that. But at the same time, it felt like, yes, this is an acknowledgment of what Emily's existence would actually be like. And so. But occasionally it leans a little too much towards the fantasy of, you know, can't we all just get along? But I do think, like, the way that Good Eagle and her family are portrayed is really interesting. The relationship that the two families eventually wind up having is good, but, like, just the. The level of danger that the show is able to depict.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

The fact that, like, again, PA is a beautiful idiot. He shouldn't have taken them there. And that even once they start to have help and are able to do things, things are constantly going wrong so hard beyond their control.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yes. Yes. It's very, very good at depicting danger in a way that my kids found really compelling and upsetting in the right way. The other thing I want to mention is that this show is entirely directed by women, and two of the directors are indigenous directors who have previous credits on reservation. Do one of the great, great shows of the. Of the 21st century.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Guys, if you haven't watched Reservation Dogs, put the episode on pause and go binge all the reservation dogs on Hulu.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

One of truly the great shows of the last 25 years. And that is the kind of choice that you make when you are being very, very conscious and careful of, like, what it means to make Little House on the Prairie in 2026 in a way that I'm. I'm really grateful for. And the thing that I find as I watch it, as I think about it, like, the last. The last thing that I want to say is that it. If you are worried that the thing that you're gonna come away with is an overly romantic vision of the West. I can't. And like this story and this family. I can't say that it doesn't do that because it is also so beautiful. Like the shots of the prairie, the shots of these kids running around in the grass and the rabbit like they

[Alan Sepinwall]

are PA playing the fiddle and the girls singing along to the fiddle.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yes. It is an incredibly romantic depiction of this story and these people. And then at the end, the thing that happens in the book happens to these, this family. And they are like, oh, shit, like, we shouldn't be here. And so I, I think the show cannot escape how, how romantic it is and how much it is trying to get away from that romanticism and can't quite do it and doesn't even really want to do it and shouldn't do it. And like all of that is, is baked in here. It's what I like so much about it while also being ultimately unresolved. Because there is no resolution you can have.

[Alan Sepinwall]

No. And we'll, we'll see if this becomes a Netflix show that defies the odds and they get to do more seasons and they get to adapt other books.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Seems unlikely, but I really hope so.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I, I don't know, but I was. Thank you for saying, like, we had to do this. I probably would have checked it out anyway, but the nudge from you is always very welcome, Catherine.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

I am, I am glad. I really want other people to check it out and, and talk about it because I want them to make the next book.

[Alan Sepinwall]

There's nothing like the American Express Platinum card. Find out your welcome offer after you apply, which could be as high as 175,000 points. Learn more and find out your [e-mail] explorer Platinum terms apply. Here's a tip for you. There's a podcast out there with fans waiting to be your next customer. They tune in every week. They trust the host. And that host wants to talk about brands like yours in their own words, words to their audience. The problem is you just haven't been introduced yet. We're acast where that introduction happens. As the world's largest podcast marketplace, we let you browse shows, see who's listening and book host red sponsorships or run your own ads, all from one platform. Transparent pricing, real time data, complete control. Start advertising on podcasts by visiting acast.com advertising advertise. Okay, let's talk about Deadwood. First of all, we are mostly just going to talk about the first episode because this is one of the greatest shows ever made. And we want to give ourselves room to revisit it down the road, whether it's on the main feed doing a whole Deadwood Patreon episode, whatever.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

So this is just a taste, a taste of Deadwood.

[Alan Sepinwall]

A taste we will not be talking about. Really spoilers anything that happens beyond the first episode, which is conveniently also called Deadwood because the creator of the show, David Milch, like, hates episode titles and does not like, put any thought into them whatsoever. In fact, the very first time I met him, when I was like obsessed with NYPD Blue and I was a 22 year old intern at the Star Ledger, we're having lunch and I'm talking about NYPD Blue and I start referring to episodes by names and he gets increasingly confused and finally is like, kid, you're the only one at this table who has any idea what the fuck you're talking about. So for those of you who don't know, Deadwood was a western that ran on HBO from 2004 to 2006, created by the aforementioned David Milch, legendary multi Emmy winning writer from shows like Hill street blues and NYPD blue. It's set in the 1870s in the Dakota territories in an illegal mining camp that was stolen from the Lakota once gold was discovered. It stars Timothy Oliphant as Seth Bullock, a former marshal from Montana, now trying to run a hardware store with his buddy Saul Starr, played by John Hawks. Ian McShane plays Al Swearengen, who manages the Gem Saloon and is the local crime lord. Molly Parker plays Alma Garrett, a wealthy woman who has been dragged to Deadwood by her idiot husband who is convinced like they're gonna have the greatest adventure in the world. And when we meet her, she is already basically coping entirely by just drowning in laudanum whenever possible. Keith Carradine plays the legendary gunslinger Wild Bill Hickok. And Robin Wygert is Bill's friend, Calamity Jane, among many, many other just incredible actors. Almost everybody except Alma and her husband are based on real figures from the West. There was a Seth Bullock, he was friends with Teddy Roosevelt. There was an Al Swearingen. Obviously there was a Wild Bill and Calamity Jane and most everybody else. Katherine. Why have we decided to pair this with Little House? This adult, incredibly profane, like the most profane show that has ever been made?

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yeah, it's so good because they are. This is almost exactly the same story, almost exactly the same story as Little House. It is taking place within 5 to 8 ish years. It depends on what? How you're actually dating the particular Osage conflict that happens in this little, little house season. But they are. They are in South Dakota. It is 1876, I believe, and they are. They are. We begin. Our opening characters are Seth Bullock and Saul Starr. And they're like, we're going to Deadwood. That's where the promise is. That's where our future is. That's where this new country is headed. And they get there, and it does not look.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I want to put a pin. I want to get back to the opening scene. Not now. But I do want to talk about the opening scene.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Great.

[Alan Sepinwall]

So continue.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

They get there, and it does not look like. You are not seeing beautiful waves of. Of prairie land. You are not seeing astonishing sunsets. You are seeing the grimiest, shittiest, muddiest, grossest collection of humanity that have all packed themselves into. Like, every single thing about the Deadwood set is. This is what sort of first pulled me into this show is just what it looks like. Everyone is the dirtiest person they have ever been in there. Like, every ev. All of them are so grimy, and they are setting up these tents, and Seth and Saul are trying to buy this little corner lot from Al Swearengen so that they can use it to set up this hardware store. And it is guys on horses. Just like, there is this. There's a shot. There's a moment later in this pilot where they finally set up the hardware store, and they all come out and Seth and Saul are, you know, holding out their. Their wares and selling them, and he holds up a chamber pot, and he's like, if you don't know what this is for, your neighbor will be glad for you to learn. And you're like, oh, right, they're shitting in the streets. Like, that's what this is.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I forget if it's actually seen in the pilot or not, but, like, it's definitely. You will periodically on the show see a character standing against the wall of a building and pissing on the building, like, unabashedly.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yes. Yes. And so this image of what Western Expansion was like is. It is nature, red tooth and claw. Like, only the strong survive. Even money means nothing because Brom Garrett has come out here well, well funded and is taken for all he is worth by else within moments of this show beginning. And he doesn't even realize that it's happened out from under him. And it is every single thing about Little House on the Prairie. But it's like. It's like that. That painting The. The one. I'll have to think of the name of it, where it's like Heaven and. And Hell, the Hieronymish boss painting. And so they have this brief moment, the garden, in the Garden of Earthly Delights, where you have this breeze that, like the panel where everyone's, you know, it's heaven, and then on the other side, it's like a guy playing a fiddle out of his own ass. Like just, you know, it's. It's insanity. It's insanity. Yes. It's so good.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah. And it's. It's the same basic idea as what you're seeing in the town of Independence and Little House, which is. This was Indian land. And, like, none of it was even purchased from the Lakota. They just came in, moved them on out. And as A.W. merrick, the. The. The publisher and sole writer of the Deadwood Pioneer, played by Jeffrey Jones, says, the whole goal is to force the government of the United States to acknowledge. To absorb Deadwood into America. And so every choice that's going to be made in later episodes is done entirely with kind of that in mind. And so they think, like, look, we're just going to get in on the ground floor. We're going to get this gold, but we're also just going to set up these businesses. Swearengen is not mining for gold. He's taking advantage of everybody who is and making money off of them from both liquor, but also his various criminal pursuits, you know, his sex workers. Trixie, played by Paula Malcomson, is another key character in a fascinating relationship. So all of this is going on the show. Originally, Milch wanted to make a Roman cop show. And he goes. And he went. He goes to pitch it to hbo, and he does a whole long, elaborate monologue about it. And then the two HBO executives are meeting with. Say, that sounds really great, David, but we're developing the show called Rome about two Roman centurions. What else have you got? And he immediately pivoted and said, okay, what about a Western? Because the goal was not so much that he was fascinated with the Old West. It's. He's fascinated with the idea of how civilizations are built and how law, it comes out of lawlessness. And so that's why I want to talk about the opening scene, because we begin. We're back in Montana. Seth and Stahl are getting ready to leave. And Seth is doing his last duty as a marshal in this town, which is. Clell Watson has been arrested for stealing a horse of a local businessman. He's going to Be hanged in the morning. The problem is the local businessman is drunk, wants to, like, lynch him now and hang it. Hang him himself that night. And Seth realizes, all right, we're. Either I give this guy over to him, or I have to come up with another idea. And his idea is, I'm going to take Klell onto the porch of the sheriff's station or the Marshall station, I'm going to hang him myself. Under color of law is the phrasing he uses. And on the one hand, this is a distinction. You could argue this is a distinction without a difference, or you could argue that this is everything.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

It's like we have to do a thing a certain way. And if I let you lynch this man, you know, when does that stop? You could go and kill anybody. Whereas if I do it, he's still going to be dead, but he's going to be dead under these codes that we as a people have agreed upon is what mattered. And it's. Oliphant, like, really did not come into his own as an actor, I would argue, until Justified and later on. But he is so good in this scene, you know? And it's like he's the dominant figure in this episode. McShane becomes more prominent later, and he's just like. He's staring down the crowd. And the actor playing Khloe Watson, he has to give this whole monologue about all the things he wants to say to his sister, who's not going to be there until the next day. And it's really tender and it's really sad. And then Bullock says, come ahead. And Clell hollers, fuck you, at the top of his lungs. And Seth breaks his neck to make sure he does not suffer.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yes. It's one of the crazy. I mean, rewatching it, I just kept thinking about Clell making sure, first, Seth offering, I'll help you with the fall, you know?

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah. And it's just everyone understands, like, this is, again, this is brutal country. And Clell is trying to, like, weasel his way out of it and convince Seth, like, take me with you. And I know all these scores we can make on the road to Deadwood, but ultimately, he's resigned to it. And I think that's everybody in Deadwood. They may have, like, foolish dreams in their head, but other than, like, Brom Garrett, I think ultimately all the characters on the show recognize maybe this is going to work out, but probably not, because this is a brutal world in which we live, and we can only do our best. And there's People talk all the time about how like the opening scene of every scene season of the Wire, tell you what that season is about. This scene scene really does it for Deadwood and sets you up for all the things that's going to come. Because Seth is now going to Deadwood. He does not want to be a marshal. He. He wants to sell hardware. And you've got Wild Bill coming in and he has also been a lawman as well. And he's just looking to gamble and get away from, you know, various warrants against him.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And it's.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yeah. I mean, this is so much.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Catherine.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

It's like, I love this show too. It is all of the. They all have this veneer of being there for the dream of the American west, but they. They immediately. There is no way to actually watch anyone's actions. They are immediately pivoting to rank capitalism at all opportunities. Or they are there because of the lawlessness. For Wild Bill, it's fascinating to watch him roll into town and watch AW Barrick go up to him and be like, oh my God, it's a celebrity. It means that this town is really happening. It means that, like, American myth has arrived. Deadwood is part of history, and all Wild Bill wants is for everyone to ignore him, buy him a drink and let him gamble. And the refusal again and again to participate in the kind of like, grandiose myth making that Merrick loves so much is so much of what this show is about. It also occurred to me, had never occurred to me before, but watching it in the context of Little House on the Prairie, of course, the Swedish settlers who have come, like we meet them, the Wild Bill and Calamity Jane meet them rolling out of town, having come to the west to make their fortunes. And their decision was, we gotta get the fuck out of here. This place.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah. This was a mistake.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

This place is a shit show. And then our closest version of a. Laura Ingalls is the lone survivor of a righteous and well, well, a what seems to be an indigenous. Like an attack from the Lakota, as far as we know, in this episode, right?

[Alan Sepinwall]

No, no, no, no, no. Swearengen figures out very quickly that it. His guys.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yes. Although that is the kind of the thing that they are going to.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes. Deal with later. And in terms of American myth making, it's interesting because the episode climaxes. Seth and Wild Bill hit it off famously, immediately. And they realize very quickly that this guy who has come into town to tell them about the Indian massacre is in fact one of the people who perpetrated the massacre and he's trying to leave and they go to confront him and they're like, get off your horse. And he won't. And they slap leather and they gun him down. And then there's the. The heroic banter, like, about which one

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

of them actually shot him.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And this is like basically the only time anything like this ever happens on Deadwood. It is classic, like western mythology. This could have been in a John Ford movie, you know, an Anthony Mann movie. And instead it's here and from there, like we are just getting into Deadwood. But it's just. It's fascinating to me that Milch and Walter Hill, who directed the pilot, like, like, decided that this is where they wanted to begin, given how little the rest of the show feels at all like your classic things with John Wayne or Jimmy Stewart.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yeah. Yes. The other thing that I kept thinking about was the. This unnamed guy at this point who is wandering around outside of the hardware shop trying to get everyone to buy soap with a prize inside.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Oh, yeah.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

And, you know, it is this scam. This is like obvious. Griffin and I kept thinking about the soap, right? And like, how dirty this entire show is. And to give us this image of somebody saying, like, you could buy soap, we could clean this whole thing up. And it is. And everyone, or at least Seth immediately recognizes it as the. The barest, least well disguised grift of all time. It is dirty inside the soap that is. That is Deadwood, you know?

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yep.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Man. And then Trixie getting beaten. You also get Doc Cochran, played by

[Alan Sepinwall]

Brad Dourif, the great Brad Dourif.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

This incredible moment where Trixie shoots John, who is beating her, and Doc Cochran comes in and is just can't stop thinking about how incredible it was. This guy continued to live and talk for several minutes after having been shot through the brain and he puts a

[Alan Sepinwall]

probe through his skull, grossing out poor Johnny. Oh, my God.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

It's so.

[Alan Sepinwall]

It's.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

It's. Yes. The way the concision of how it lays out all of these characters and who they are. It's hard to imagine a better introduction to Doc Cochrane than for him to come in, be very sweet to Trixie, do his. Do important doctoring, and then being like, I'm so sorry, but I do have to put a probe through this guy's skull because I just need to. I just need to understand exactly what's happening right here.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And it's again, without getting too much into spoilers for later seasons, it's just fascinating to see how Al is positioned here both in General and in his relationship with Trixie versus how Al is depicted over the life of the series and eventually the dead with the movie, which they made many, many years after the cancellation because it's, you know, you want to talk about character arcs, this is one of the just best evolutions of a person ever. And one of the great performances. We got to talk about the profanity because I remember much like when Mad Men debuted, it seemed for a while that all anybody could talk about was how much the characters were smoking. And Matt Weiner would say things like, oh, we toned it down. Like it would be so much more than even we're depicting. This was Milch's argument as well. Everyone lost their minds about how much people were swearing on this show. And it's kind of funny that one of the real people on the show, his last name is Swear Engine. And so Milch's argument is like, if you go back and you look at like what was written at the time about how cowboys talked, it's. You would not believe it. And so I'm now going to do a dramatic reading.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Please.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I will not remotely do it justice to the work of the great Jim Beaver as prospector Whitney Ellsworth. But he is drink. He's drinking in the saloon with Al and he declares, I may have fucked up my life, flatter and hammered shit, but I stand here before you today beholden to no human cocksucker and holding a working fucking gold claim. And not the US government telling me I'm trespassing. I or the savage fucking Redman or any of these other limber dick cocksuckers passing themselves off as prospectors had better try and stop me.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Poetry, poetry, poetry. But also, like, this is. This is essentially the. What becomes one of the best characters, like from a moral standpoint, like, this is the purest hearted person on this show, essentially. And the thing that he is articulating there would be pretty recognizable to Rose Wilder Lane, founding mother of American libertarianism. Like, the thing that he is excited about is that finally he is free of all of these other things. Of course he is not. But like, this is the, this is the lie that he tells himself. This is what he is so excited about.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, there's this conflict of at the moment it is law, pure lawlessness. But at the same time, everyone understands that we have to eventually be absorbed into America and how can we balance it? But right now this is just anything goes. Except if Seth Bullock and Wild Bill figure out that you've massacred a family of Swedish Settlers.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Right, right. And the. The sense of internal moral code and what is actually allowable. And watching it, I agree with you. This is not Oliphant fully understanding himself as a performer yet, but what he can do is have a face that you look at and you're like, this guy doesn't seem particularly comfortable with what's going on, but he also doesn't seem to understand his own discomfort like that. That is really.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, I think to a degree, Tim's, like, limitations at that point work with the character because Milt's. Milt starts to write every character towards the actors, which. Which all great, like, showrunners do. He's just especially great at it. And so, for instance, he saw that Jim Beaver had this core of decency, and so that's sort of where Ellsworth goes. And with Oliphant, I think he kind of saw, like, he doesn't necessarily know how to access everything yet. So I'm going to make this a character who does not understand his own emotions other than his rage. It's just he's. He can always get to the rage. Everything else is sort of just a complete model for him.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yeah. Yeah. Ugh. Yes. I mean, I. There are so many scenes in this. This first episode, I. I do just like. You have to talk a tiny bit about. About Brom Garrett, one of Tim Ottmanson, the.

[Alan Sepinwall]

What an idiot.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Just exquisite performances of. Because that. That character. It's sort of. This show is very funny. Is always funny all throughout, even as it is some of the bleakest shit you have ever seen on television. He is so good at playing this doofus and watching this negotiation play out in the saloon where it's like he thinks that he's gotten this claim for, you know, 16,000, but everyone knows he actually has this credit, or 14,000, but everyone knows he ACTUALLY has this credit for 20,000. And you can watch all the characters come in and start to, like, talk him up. Farnham comes in and is like, oh, by the way, oh, my God,

[Alan Sepinwall]

William Sanderson is Amy Barnabas. We. Okay, we. We need to cut this off soon because clearly we need to do, like, 12 more episodes about Deadwood and maybe just about Deadwood continue from Garrett.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

But what I. What is. This is another moment where you introduce a character very, very quickly, are able to establish exactly what that guy's deal is, how he is being. He has no idea what is. He cannot read any of the signs and symbols. He wants the money. He wants the sort of. Of myth of it, the growth, the the wealth that he feels like he has been promised, cannot access. It has not two brain cells to rub together. And then the tragedy of watching him go back to his wife who is stuck inside this hotel room high off her mind and describe all of his successes to her. And you can see her knowing that he has like, first of all, not even caring that he has spent all their money because what the fuck is she supposed to do? All she can do is sit in this hotel room and then just the fall, like in her eyes as she can see that he has lost everything they had for no purpose whatsoever is so, it's just, it's so good. It's so good.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Brom Garrett is Charles Ingalls in my TED Talk. I will explain.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yes, yes, they are the same show. Actually.

[Alan Sepinwall]

We, okay, we joke all the time when we've been doing this. When we revisit a classic show, instantly all we want to do is go and watch the rest of it. Like I really want to watch the rest of Deadwood. But it's, we have other things going on. So that leads us to our conclusion for today. Catherine, was the TV good this week?

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

It was really, really, really good. It was a really good TV week. Really good week. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

All right, what are we doing next week?

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Next week we are talking about a new Apple series called Lucky. You have seen some of it, but I have not seen it yet. So I am excited to discover. But it stars Anya Taylor Joy. And, and you know, she's, she's pretty good on screen from what I've heard.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Well, that brings us. It also stars Timothy Oliphant. So you're get, you're gonna get us Oliphant and later Oliphant in back to back weeks. Then we are going to be. Our classic show is going to be a bit more recent this time because we want to talk more about Annie Taylor Joy. So we will be revisiting her breakout role on the Netflix chess miniseries the Queen's Gambit. We'll be talking about sort of all throughout. You can revisit. You don't necessarily have to, but if you want to, you can. That's still streaming on Netflix when we're not podcasting. We are writers. You can find my writing at What's Alan watching? Catherine'sulture.com, my Rod Serling biography, A Journey into the twilight zone with TV's first visionary is available for pre order. You can find links to all three of those things in the show notes.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Yes. And if you want to get in touch with us directly. You can find us at tvisgoodpodmail. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. We really, really appreciate it. We really want to give another shout out to all of the people who our subscribers to our Patreon episodes. We're very excited to record whatever it is that you guys pick for us to record next.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, so we've got to beat the algorithm so you help us with that because we hate the algorithm. But you know what? We love Catherine. We love tv.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Love tv. There's something in that line that really makes me wish I could figure out how to do a joke about but you'll help us with the fall. But that's too dark. Okay, thanks.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I'll help you with the draw, help

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

you with the drop. Thanks to Joe Kennedy for our theme music and Kate Bergener for our artwork and Riley Routh for editing.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Thank you for listening. There's nothing like the American Express Platinum Card. Find out your welcome offer after you apply, which could be as high as 175,5000 points. Learn more and find out your [e-mail] explorer Platinum terms apply. Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend hey guys.

[Katherine Van Arendonagh]

Welcome to Giggly Squad, a place where we make fun of everything, but most importantly ourselves. I'm Paige desorbo. I'm Hannah Berner. Welcome to the welcome to the Squad. Giggly Squad started on Summer House when we were giggling during an inappropriate time. But of course we can't be managed, so we decided to start this podcast to continue giggling. We will make fun of pop culture news. We're watching fashion trends pep talks where we give advice, mental health moments and games and guests. Listen to Giggly Squad on Acast or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alan Sepinwall]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.