Does Lucky give us Anya Taylor joy?

Summary

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TV Is Good Podcast Episode Summary

Episode Title: Does Lucky give us Anya Taylor joy?
Hosts: Alan Sepinwall & Kathryn VanArendonk
Date: July 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Alan and Kathryn dive deep into Anya Taylor-Joy’s new Apple TV+ con artist thriller, Lucky, created by Jonathan Tropper. They examine whether the show delivers on its premise, especially as a showcase for its star. The hosts also revisit Taylor-Joy’s breakout hit The Queen’s Gambit, reflecting on why it became a phenomenon and how her persona continues to shape her career. Along the way, they discuss recent Emmy nominations, stray into the world of Bluey fanfic, and unload some sharp (and hilarious) opinions on Netflix’s The Hawk.
Major topics include the creative team behind Lucky, the show’s approach to the heist genre, what makes Anya Taylor-Joy so compelling, the forgotten art of “fine” TV, and the peculiar power of TV aesthetics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Housekeeping, Bluey Fanfic & Fandom Weirdness

• Kathryn’s book update: Kathryn talks about copy editing her upcoming book on Bluey and how reading the style sheet led her down a rabbit hole of Bluey fanfiction on AO3 ([04:27]).
• Fanfic Explainers: Alan realizes terms like “MPREG” and “Omegaverse” may need explaining. Kathryn clarifies:

  “MPREG is a fandom term for imagining a man being pregnant... specifically is the idea of imagining a CIS man who is pregnant.” – Kathryn ([05:56])

• The pair riff on wild fanfic scenarios, from Bluey in the Epstein files to Bluey as Doctor Who. While they agree it’s funny and validating for fandom culture, Alan apologizes for bringing it up.

  “If you can imagine it. Of course it’s there. That’s the rule of fanfic.” – Kathryn ([06:50])
  “Mistakes were made.” – Alan ([10:37])

• Alan gives a TV deep cut for MPREG fans:

  “Alien Nation... at a certain stage of the pregnancy, the embryo is transplanted into the man, and so the man gives birth.” ([09:12])

2. Patreon Polls, Emmy Nods & TV News

• The Patreon poll for the next episode: Aksis Mundi (The Leftovers S2E1) wins, with the hosts expressing regret for not yet covering Surf Dracula, Station 11, and Atlanta.

  “I can’t imagine a situation where we never talk about Station 11, what I think is maybe the best show for me of the 21st century so far.” – Kathryn ([11:57])

• Emmy Nomination Reactions ([16:32]):
  • Excitement over nominations for Widow’s Bay (Cade O’Flynn, Dale Dickey)
  • Disappointment for The Lowdown’s lack of recognition
  • Your Friends and Neighbors (another Jonathan Tropper series) receives only a Best Drama nod, nothing else—a rare, odd occurrence ([18:45]).
  • Kathryn’s “Matthew Rhys supremacy” mood.
• Special sports crossover: Knicks player OG Anunoby appears on Your Friends and Neighbors, which Alan credits for the Knicks’ playoff run ([19:39]).

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3. Main Review: Lucky (Apple TV+ Series)

Introduction and Concept:

• Created by Jonathan Tropper (known for pulpy action in Banshee and Warrior, as well as Your Friends and Neighbors).
• Lucky stars Anya Taylor-Joy as a con artist from an entire family of grifters (father: Timothy Olyphant; husband: Drew Starkey; mother-in-law: Annette Bening).
• The show is described as a “thriller where people have to deal with some heisty things and run around doing disguises” ([03:31]).

Is Lucky “Good” TV?

• Kathryn:

  “It’s fine. I think it does what it says on the tin... It is a well-executed version of those things for the most part... It feels very safely designed.” ([20:52])

• Alan:

  “It’s definitely become a challenge...where you either have to really love something or really hate it. And there is no...room...for the mixed review of the show.” ([22:01])

  • For him, Lucky functions as an “Anya Taylor Joy delivery system ... also Timothy Olyphant delivery system” ([22:52]).
• The story is convoluted and not especially compelling, but Taylor-Joy’s presence “pulls you through" ([22:52]).

Performance Deep-Dive: Anya Taylor-Joy

• Alan:

  “There is just something about her...the way the camera looks at her, and just about, like, the stillness that she has or the way she is in movement.” ([22:52])

• Kathryn:

  “She spends so much—like, there’s really only one kind of thing happening in her brain most of the time...less of the interesting transparency that I think she is good at doing.” ([24:09])

  • The script gives her “less of her being a con artist than there could be.” ([25:52])
• Both agree Taylor-Joy’s beauty and screen presence can be a distraction in roles not written for it:

  “Has everyone seen this person, this like alien immortal goddess who is walking among us?” – Kathryn ([28:01]) “Those eyes...have their own planetary systems.” – Alan ([29:17])

Supporting Cast: Annette Bening & Timothy Olyphant

• Kathryn’s favorite is Annette Bening:

  “Every time she’s on screen...why are we not following this all the time?”
  “She has these huge, chunky glasses...what if Martha Stewart continued to follow a life of crime vibe.” ([32:10], [34:02])

• On Olyphant:

  “This is a character I have not seen him play a billion times before. He could roll up to set having not seen the script...I’m happily gonna turn to those colors again and again.” – Kathryn ([35:07])

  • Oliphant is enjoyable but perhaps under-utilized.

Should Lucky Be a Movie?

“Yes, it should have been a movie.” – Kathryn ([37:52])
“It could have been movie or at least...five or six episodes as opposed to seven.” – Alan ([39:03])

Notable Segment/Quote:

• “If Dale Dickey shows up in season two of Lucky or Cato Flynn...Dell Dickey and Beth Grant as like sisters who run a criminal empire together, give it to me right now.” – Alan & Kathryn ([38:38])

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4. [Timestamp: 41:44] Classic Discussion—The Queen’s Gambit (Netflix)

The Phenomenon & Its Era

• The Queen’s Gambit, adapted from Walter Tevis’ novel, is seen as Anya Taylor-Joy’s introduction to the world.
• Became a cultural touchstone during the pandemic lockdowns (2020):

  “It was a complete phenomenon. It was also a Covid era phenomenon...who was I when I first watched this show?” – Kathryn ([41:45])

• Alan felt “low man on the totem pole” among critics, enjoying Taylor-Joy and the look, but found it overlong and oddly paced ([44:17]).

Aesthetic as Narrative

• Kathryn:

  “Aesthetic is why people like Twisted Metal...Lessons in Chemistry, similarly, is an aesthetic in search of a story.” ([49:01])

• Alan:

  “Frank...is another one of those...writers who becomes a great director. I think he is one of those. The look of this, more than anything else, is what’s driving you through.” ([51:25])

  • The fashion, set design, and period details set Queen’s Gambit apart even from Mad Men ([51:25]).

Anya Taylor-Joy & Ensemble

• The surrounding cast—Thomas Brodie-Sangster, Bill Camp, Marielle Heller, Moses Ingram—help normalize Taylor-Joy’s striking appearance ([53:15]).
• “Bill Camp, who never gives a bad performance...there’s a stillness to his performance as well.” – Alan ([54:18])
• Moses Ingram’s character and the race element:

  “Their friendship is so important...lovely to have those race elements in the show, except...what is the role of constantly pointing out the fact she is white and her friend is black?” – Kathryn ([56:59])

The Chess Visualization

• The innovative ways the show visualizes chess—on the ceiling, through Taylor-Joy’s performance—receive praise.

  “Sometimes you are seeing the pieces projected on the ceiling...sometimes you’re just looking at Anya Taylor Joy’s face and you understand exactly what it is that she's feeling...” – Alan ([50:24])

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5. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “If you can imagine it. Of course it’s there. That’s the rule of fanfic.” – Kathryn ([06:50])
• “Mistakes were made.” – Alan ([10:37])
• “It’s an Anya Taylor Joy delivery system.” – Alan ([22:52])
• “Has everyone seen this person, this like alien immortal goddess who is walking among us?” – Kathryn ([28:01])
• “Give it to me right now. Call it Lucky season two, have Anya Taylor Joy just be running around in the background.” – Kathryn ([38:44])
• “Aesthetic is why people like Twisted Metal...As long as it’s a thorough look first, then characters and story later.” – Kathryn ([49:01])
• “Bill Camp is definitely in that [‘can’t be bad’ actor] category.” – Alan ([54:18])

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6. Important Timestamps

• Intro & Housekeeping: [03:13]
• Kathryn’s Bluey Fanfic Adventure: [04:27–10:33]
• Patreon Poll/Emmy Discussion: [10:37–19:39]
• Lucky Review Starts: [19:11]
• Anya Taylor-Joy Deep Dive: [22:52–31:34]
• Supporting Cast (Bening, Olyphant): [31:34–36:58]
• Movie vs TV/Season 2 speculation: [37:31–39:24]
• Queen’s Gambit Discussion Start: [41:44]
• Aesthetic as Plot: [49:01–51:25]
• Ensemble/Supporting Cast: [53:12–56:59]
• Chess Visualization: [50:24–51:25]

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Tone & Language

The hosts keep an upbeat, self-aware, and humorous tone throughout:

• Willing to poke fun at themselves, each other, and the TV industry (“Mistakes were made.” / “I apologize for bringing this up”).
• Relaxed critical banter mixed with affection for the medium (“This is a TV-shaped object that will fill the TV-shaped hole in your life…”).

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Summary Conclusion

• On Lucky: Polished, entertaining, but never transcendent; most worthwhile as an Anya Taylor-Joy and supporting cast showcase. The plot is serviceable but never surprising, with memorable set pieces but little depth.
• On Anya Taylor-Joy: A mesmerizing screen presence whose uniqueness is both her greatest asset and a challenge for credibly playing “ordinary” roles.
• On The Queen’s Gambit: A phenomenon driven as much by style and mood as by story, with a supporting cast and aesthetic vision that amplify Taylor-Joy’s strange allure.
• TV Today: The hosts lament the vanishing “good but not great” show, and reflect on how collective appetite and platform aesthetics can drive a phenomenon.

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Next Week Teaser:
The hosts will tackle Stuart Fails to Save the Universe (HBO Max’s latest Big Bang Theory spinoff), alongside a survey of improbable TV spinoffs—including Mrs. Columbo and The Brady Variety Hour.

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For further comments, feedback, or fanfic recommendations:
tvisgoodpodmail.com

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Notable Quote of the Week:

“It is a TV-shaped object that will fill the TV-shaped hole in your life until the next great thing comes out.”
— Kathryn VanArendonk ([58:11])

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Transcript

[Alan Sepinwall]

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[Kathryn VanArendonk]

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[Alan Sepinwall]

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[Alan Sepinwall]

acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hey guys.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Welcome to Giggly Squad, a place where we make fun of everything, but most importantly ourselves. I'm Paige Desorbo. I'm Hannah Berner. Welcome to the Squad. Giggly Squad started on Summer House when we were giggling during an inappropriate time. But of course we can't be managed. So we decided to start this podcast to continue giggling. We will make fun of pop culture news. We're watching fashion trends pep talks where we give advice, mental health moments and games and guests. Listen to Giggly Squad on Acast or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. I'm Alan Sepinwall. I'm a TV critic.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

I am Kathryn VanAirendonk. I am also a TV critic.

[Alan Sepinwall]

We are friends and neighbors and we love to talk about TV with each other.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

And now we are going to talk about it with you.

[Alan Sepinwall]

That's right. This is the TV is Good podcast. And every week we're going to look at one current show and one classic show as we try to answer an important question, is the TV good?

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

This week we're going to be talking about Anya Taylor Joy's new Apple TV series is called Lucky. It is created by Jonathan Tropper and it is, as you may be shocked to discover for an Apple TV series, a thriller where people have to deal with some heisty things and run around doing disguises. And we're going to talk about it

[Alan Sepinwall]

and we will be sticking with Anya Taylor Joy to revisit one of the surprise hits of the streaming era, her chess miniseries for Netflix, the Queen's Gambit. We're recording this on a Tuesday before any of this happens. As we've talked about before, you are working on a book about the TV show Bluey called Bluey Years that's not coming out until next summer. But you know you're working on a book. Books get done way in advance. I had to turn my Rod Serling book in way earlier this year and it's not out until octo over. Yes, today, this morning. What aspect of the Bluey Years were were you talking about?

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Well, I was copy editing. I'm working on the copy edit for this book, which means it's almost done. And when you are copy editing a book, they the copy editor creates a style sheet which is a list of all of the correct spellings of like specific place names and people names. And so that you know that like that exactly when you use what kinds of hyphens and things and it's fun to read down those style sheets. They're sort of like, it's like when you could do those association bubbles or like word frequency bubbles where you're like, which ones do I use most regular. It's like a sort of map of what the book is like in this kind of interesting abstracted way And I was reading down the list of the M section, which reads Maths, Minisode, Miranda comma Lin Manuel, Mr. Rogers, Neighborhood, Moore comma Sam, Mount Kurta, MPREG multi year Muppet Babies. And so I thought this was quite funny and I posted it. And then people were like, oh, no, I bet there's Bluey omegaverse stuff on AO3. And I thought, you know, I. I should probably double check just because I. I'm sure it is, but I'd like to have more of an understanding.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay. All right, so let's rewind for just a moment, Catherine, for some, for people who are maybe less online than you or I, you threw out about five different terms in that sentence that I feel like maybe need to be unpacked. So, first of all, what is mpreg?

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Mpreg is a fandom term for imagining a man being pregnant. It is not the. What you use when you are a pregnant trans man. That's just pregnancy. But mpreg specifically is the idea of imagining a CIS man who is pregnant.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay. And there. There's a big demand for.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Yes, it is a very popular fandom, sort of sub genre. There's quite a lot of MPREG fandom about the pit. People really want Dr. Robbie to have impregnated Whitaker, for instance.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Oh, no, no. It's not even so much the empreg. I just don't want. The people on that show should not be, for the most part, sleeping with each other. And certainly Robbie should not be sleeping with the younger doctors, even though he did it with Collins and just Robbie's. Okay.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Anyway, I then started exploring the vast world of Bluey fanfic. There's a lot of stuff that you would expect, if you can imagine it. Of course it's there. That's the rule of fanfic. There's one where Bluey's in the Epstein files.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Oh, my God. Look, this is my idea to bring this up for the show, so ultimately, I'm the one who should apologize. I am so sorry to everyone who is listening to this.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

But there's also one where Bluey becomes the new Doctor who, which I think is a good idea worth considering or bad idea.

[Alan Sepinwall]

There's people in my house who love both Bluey and Doctor who. Is this just a Doctor who story or is there adult content in this as well?

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

I have mostly been reading down the tags and sort of descriptions of these. There's only a couple I've actually now read. One of them was when I discovered one that was Ilya from heated rivalry, watching Sleepy Time with his daughters, which was.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Oh my God.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Which was really sweet. A lot of them are very, very wholesome. They're just like continuation stories of other episodes or like telling the camping episode from another character's perspective. Inevitably there are some when they grow up and they have crushes and they are all different, like stages of life. Obviously there's a bunch that are quite sexual in many. This episode of Bluey is called Threesome, for instance.

[Alan Sepinwall]

No, no, it's not.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

But there's also like Bandit in a post apocalyptic landscape, wandering around trying to find his family after they've all been. It's like, it's just what a. The human imagination. I don't recommend that you necessarily go on this same voyage that I have been exploring, but I am very grateful and I have to say it does sort of validate the kind of point of the book because there's also this whole category that's just characters of other things watching Bluey, like Ilia watching Sleepy Time, but like Peter Parker watching Sleepy Time, people from Lone Star911 watching watching Bluey like it just like how they make some feel. And so that. That was really nice actually to discover.

[Alan Sepinwall]

So two things. One, if any of our listeners happen to actually be in MPREG into MPREG, I might recommend. There was a 1990s sci fi TV show on the Fox network called Alien Nation which was adapting a movie with Mandy Patinkin and James Caan about alien immigrants who crash land on Earth and just have to get assimilated. And one of them works as a copy of. And among the the gimmicks that they come up with for their, I believe one and only season is that the aliens, the woman becomes impregnated first and at a certain stage of the pregnancy, the embryo is transplanted into the man and so the man gives birth.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

What a fun premise.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And so they could do one of those classic TV episodes where like the non doctor has to deliver a baby in the middle of, you know, some highly stressful situation, but in this case it's a man who is going through labor. Wow. The second is this is now reminding me of yet another story from the unreleased second season of Too Long Didn't Watch, which is we did Sex in the City with Max Greenfield. And at one point I had to explain the concept of pegging to Max Greenfield. And I yeah, this was not necessarily one of the more expected aspects of hosting a podcast.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

You know, it leads you into all these unexpected corners like the Bluey Omegaverse AU

[Alan Sepinwall]

let's move on.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Again, I'm so sorry you brought this up.

[Alan Sepinwall]

No, it's entirely. It's entirely my fault. Mistakes were made. All right. So as we talked about last time, we set up a new Patreon poll for what's going to be our August episode. We picked four different topics, including Surf Dracula, which was the runner up last time. We assumed because of that it was going to move ahead and win. It did not. Your August episode of the TV is good. Patreon is going to be Aksis Mundi, the season two premiere of the Leftovers, AKA perhaps the biggest transformation and or leveling up any television show has ever done from its first season to its second. Leftovers is streaming on hbo Max. You can watch the episode. We'll obviously be talking a fair amount about the first season as well and some about where it goes, but it's mainly about this idea of, like. Cause we've been dealing with this a lot lately. And we may be dealing with it with our main topic of today's show, where you have a TV show that's adapted from a book or a movie and the whole first season tells the story of that book or movie. What do you do if you come back? And in most cases lately it's sort of, I don't know. Why are we here? I don't know. And the Leftovers is like the platonic ideal of how you can actually do it.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Yeah, it's really the hold my beer of TV writing.

[Aura Advertiser]

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[Kathryn VanArendonk]

E. I want to mention about the poll. I personally found this one very challenging because I want to do Surf Dracula and I want to do the Station 11 episode that we talked about and the Atlanta episode. So this is for sure one where you're going to be seeing one or multiple of those options on future polls because I can't imagine a situation where we never talk about Station 11, what I think is maybe the best show for me of the 21st century so far. Well, it's an interesting conversation.

[Alan Sepinwall]

So if you want to hear us talk about the Leftovers, if you want to hear the two previous episodes about the Americans and Mad Men, you go to patreon.com tvisgoodpod that is correct.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

I see. The next item on our housekeeping list is to mention that we have both watched and maybe not enjoyed a television show. What is it, Alan?

[Alan Sepinwall]

That is Netflix's the Hawk, a new golf comedy starring Will, Bill Ferrell and Fortune Femster and Jimmy Tatro, created by Ferrell and Chris Henchy and Harper Steele. Somehow Two different members of the frat pack have now done streaming golf comedies because last year we got Owen Wilson in Stick. This one co stars Luke Wilson. So it's all like, all of it. Let's make it the 2000s again by science or Magic. I love Will Ferrell. I've enjoyed some Will Ferrell sports comedies. This show is so bad, it's really,

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

really unbearable to watch. And I do need to say that in the context of my own reaction to this show. I hate golf. I hate all elements of golf. I hate all everything about golf and am baffled by it. And so I am. I will fully admit to my own anti golf bias. And this is nothing against golfers, except sometimes what it is. But generally, not, not generally against golfers. It truly is. Like it's not associated with enough good things for it to outweigh the things that drive me insane.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Hold on. I don't care about golf either, but have you ever seen the Kevin Costner film Tin Cup?

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

It's a golf movie.

[Alan Sepinwall]

It is a golf movie. It is perhaps the most attractive that Kevin Costner has ever been on film and certainly the funniest he has ever been on film.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Okay. I mean, fine.

[Alan Sepinwall]

That's fine. Okay. I just. I was curious if even that could perhaps bring you out of it. Okay, so you hate golf, but is that the reason that you hated the Hawks?

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

No, no, no. I want to be clear. I hate golf. And I did not like Stick, a show that many people think is fine. And I think you were fine with Stick for the most part.

[Alan Sepinwall]

It's, it's. It's aggressively fine. It's perfectly cromulent.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Yes. I like Marc Maron. You know, the Hawk is really a different level of unbearable for me. And it is. There are so many miscalculations about it and, and particular to do with the characterization of Will Ferrell, whose name is Lonnie Hawkins, the Hawk. And it is like a show that can't decide whether It's a Danny McBride show or whether it's like a feel good sports thing, which is such an unfortunate space to be inside. Because if you are gonna go Danny McBride, like Eastbound and down and these kind of. Or the righteous gemstones, these, these largely satiric, deliberately unlikable characters who you then grow to have these other relationships with. You gotta go full like you. That does not work halfway it. You can't if you're not fully committed. The whole thing is just like, this is an asshole. But the show doesn't seem to know that he's an asshole. Or it does, but it thinks that it's cute that he's an asshole.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I think it's. It's. He's. He's an uninteresting asshole. Like, Ron Burgundy is so fucking weird. And that's what makes Anchorman funny. It's the ways in which he's a narcissistic dick that make that show, that movie, as sort of incredible as it is. Talladega Nights, which is the one that sort of kicked off this whole sports phase of his, I like substantially less, but he's still a weirdo in that there's nothing, like, interesting. He is just selfish and doesn't care about anybody but himself.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

And, yeah, I'm very curious about creatively how this happened. Like, who's. Whose fault is this? Is it a kind of defensive, not wanting to demonstrate vulnerability and weirdness on Feral's part? Is it a. Is it just a sheer laziness issue? I don't. I don't know what's happening, but it's bad.

[Alan Sepinwall]

All right, last thing before we move on to Lucky, because we record these things sometimes well in advance. We were not able to respond to the Emmy nominations in a timely fashion. It's been a couple of weeks now. Are there any particular Emmy things that you would want to bring up?

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

I don't know. I'm so bad at understanding and following the Emmys. Like, it's hard. Like, it is the part of being a TV critic that I am truly worst at. I am very grateful that Widow's Bay got as many nominations as it did. I'm very. I mean, Cade o' Flynn would have been a like, we ride at sunset kind of omission. But the fact that they also nominated Dale Dickey, I. Is so, so, so lovely. Year of Matthew Reese. Matthew Reese, supremacy.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Three nominations. Acting for Widow's Bay, for Beast in Me. And he's also a Widow's Bay producer. Keri Russell, you know, Matthew's partner, got both for Diplomat and for being a producer of the Diplomat. Yeah, I'm really bummed the Lowdown didn't get anything that.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Yeah, me too. That is really unfortunate.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I'm excited. Pluribus got a lot of nominations, including some like, you know, Carlos Manuel Vezca and Carolina Vedra, who I would not necessarily to get nominated. That. That could have very easily been sort of like the Pit Season 1 treatment, where it was just Rhea Seehorn and essentially nobody else. But, you know, even Jeff Hiller got a guest star nomination for basically one scene on this show.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

I mean, Jeff Hiller should get nominations.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, no, Jeff Hiller's incredible. Also, Jeff. Interesting. Jeff Hiller and Liza Colon Zayas announcing the nominations, and he got that unexpected guest nomination, and she was not nominated for supporting actress for the Bear. So that's. That's unfortunate for her in that particular context. The last thing is, and it's specifically because we're about to talk about Lucky. You mentioned Jonathan Tropper before. Jonathan Tropper has created a bunch of TV shows, one of which is another Apple series, your Friends and Neighbors, Jon Hamm as the gentleman thief. Your Friends and Neighbors was nominated for best drama at the Emmys and nothing else. The last time this happened was 17 years ago when Big Love got nominated for best drama and nothing else.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Interesting.

[Alan Sepinwall]

It's so weird, especially because we had a bunch of different. Like, we had. We had shows like Task that got a number of other nominations, you know, for, like, acting and writing and directing, and were not nominated for best drama. So I don't know what exactly is going on there.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

I'm not a your Friends and Neighbors fan, so it's not one where I feel wounded by some overlooked omission.

[Alan Sepinwall]

No, no, me either. It's just. It's an oddity. Like, obviously, the. The Emmy voters liked it enough to vote for it for that, but nothing like, you like the show about Jon Hamm, Gentleman Thief, but you don't like Jon Hamm.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Yeah, I mean, the thing I like about your Friends and Neighbors is that I believe canonically the Don Draper character listens to podcasts about pop culture because there is a scene where he's listening to Blank Check. And so for that, I say thank you for your support, Jon Hansen and

[Alan Sepinwall]

also OG Anoby from the Knicks, the person responsible for the greatest play in Knicks history. And I apologize to the people who hate me talking about the Knicks on this show. He played himself in an episode of your Friends and Neighbors this season, and it aired shortly before the Knicks went on, like, their championship run. So even though I'm not super into the show either, I thank it for that. All right, so let's talk more. Jonathan Tropper, as you said, Lucky was created by him, written by him and Cassie Pappas Tropper, sort of well known previously not only for your Friends and Neighbors, he's a novelist. He has created several other TV shows, sort of in the pulpy realm of Banshee and Warrior, both of which are utterly delightful and kick ass. And they're on HBO Max. This is based on a novel by Marissa Stapley it stars Anya Taylor Joy as a con woman in an interconnected family of con artists. Her dad is a con artist played by Tim Oliphant, who we discussed last week when we were talking about Deadwood. Her husband is a con artist played by Drew Starkey. Her mother in law is a con artist played by Annette Bening, who is in arguably the greatest con artist movie of them all. The grifters in the show, Lucky finds herself being hunted both by other criminals and an obsessed FBI agent played by ingenue Ellis Taylor after a robbery goes awry. Katherine, what did you think?

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

I am in a place that I don't love to find myself as a TV critic because it's sort of the hardest place to be in for this show, which is the like, it's fine. I, I think it does what it says on the tin. I think if you like TV where people are like running across the tops of semi trucks and then jumping between the semi trucks to escape to evade discovery and they end up in disguises. And also there's a special code that somebody has to remember and you thought it was gone and then they remember it. Like these are the. It is all the tropes that you expect it to be, all the kinds of twists and discoveries that you expect mostly in the order that you expect. And it is a well executed version of those things for the most part, although I have some issues with some of the performances. But there is nothing about it where I'm like, you know what's so good? This new show, right? It feels, it feels like it is designed, it is safe, it feels very safely designed.

[Alan Sepinwall]

We've run into this thing. I think I liked it a little bit more than you and I'll talk about that. But it's definitely become a challenge, I would say in the last 10 years or so of discourse about TV entertainment, anything where you either have to really love something or really hate it. And there is no, there's no room or understanding of the mixed review of the show. That's, you know, a BB minus C plus, you know. And I would say this is probably a solid B for me because I look at it as this is an Anya Taylor Joy delivery system. To a lesser extent, it's a Timothy Olyphant delivery system. It lets the two of them do the things that both of them are very good at and we will talk about those. I did not care at all about the story. I could only kind of follow parts of the story. There is an elaborate con involving like stolen gas or underpriced gas or something. And every time they explain it, I somehow understand it less. The story's not great. There's a bunch of ancillary characters played by actors I usually like, like Kilston Collins and William Fichtner, who just really don't work at all. There's a bunch of plot holes where characters are doing things and you don't understand why. And it's clearly just to keep the story moving and just to keep Lucky, you know, out in the field as opposed to being captured or killed or whatever. And yet, when Anya Taylor Joy is running around or, you know, moving in slow motion away from an explosion or covered in blood or whatever it is she's doing, she's really compelling. There is just something about her. And we'll talk about it more when we get to the Queen's Gambit. She holds the camera, and that's a real. That's an I know it when I see it kind of thing. It's not necessarily about your physical appearance, although she does have a striking physical appearance. It's just there is something innate about the way she holds her body, about the way the camera looks at her, and just about, like, the stillness that she has or the way she is in movement. She's running around a lot in this that I think is just really interesting and pulled me through this, even though, again, I was not super excited about the actual plot of Lucky.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

And I want to be clear. Her name is Anya Taylor Joy, and I will struggle with that throughout the rest of this episode.

[Alan Sepinwall]

You've gotten it right so far. I'm very proud of you.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

I know, I know, I know. I'm going to do my best. I agree with everything that you were saying about her as a performer. I feel like this show does not require her to actually use her ability to do those things as well as I wish that it would. She is. She spends so much. Like, there's really only one kind of thing happening in her brain. Most of the time there's not. There's maybe two different places where she has to play a more complex emotion than just, oh, no, I will be caught, or, oh, no, how did I get into this place? I am so frustrated by. Insert character's name here.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

And so there is less of the interesting transparency that I think she is good at doing. And we will talk about more in Queen's Gambit, and instead it is replaced by a lot of, well, the other thing is, as in Queen's Gambit, like, there is this reliant on what her childhood was to what this character's childhood is in order to inform this current character's actions. And using those flashbacks should be giving me more information that helps me understand something about who this character. Like I should feel surprised by what's in those flashbacks. And instead they are just like the most bog standard person teaches a younger kid to learn how to do crimes kind of a thing.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And she. And she doesn't like it and resents it. And, but.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

And she doesn't like it and resents it and so, and so then to get those that kind of like, ooh, but this is what her childhood is like. And then you come back to her in the present. I, I don't then look at her face and think, oh, there's all this interesting depth that I suddenly now see in this performance. I look at her face and I think, like, oh, now she's gonna run over there. And then she does. Like, it just feels emptier than I wish that it did.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, I get that. I looked at the flashbacks more as an excuse because Oliphant's character, when the show begins, is in prison. And so his role in a lot of episodes early on is just. She calls him, he calls her, and he gives her advice on things. And so the flashbacks are a way to work him more into the story. But you're right, they don't offer a ton of insight. And as we talked about with Little House last week, sometimes it's just, you don't need that backstory. You kind of get it. You can say it in a couple of sentences. And I think you're also right that, like, there's less of her being a con artist than there could be. But there's a few, like, sequences that are fun like that. Like she, you know, she has to keep changing clothes and so that. That's one of the things. So for. In one sequence, for instance, she's in a suburban neighborhood and comes across like a wealthy kid's birthday party and is very quickly able to insinuate herself as she's posing as somebody's nanny. And then she gets inside and then she, you know, steals an outfit and people are allowing her to do this. And then she steals several birthday presents because she knows they'll have cash in them. That's a fun sequence. There's a few like that. There's maybe less than there could be. But there's also car chases, although the big car chase steals a move from baby driver. So again, it's the most predictable version of it. But if you happen to like the genre. It does it well enough and especially with her at the center of it. Let's talk more. I mean, what are your feelings about her as a performer? She kind of came out of nowhere. She, you know, she has lived a bunch of places, but is primarily like English. She's got the English accent, had been in some movies, then certainly turned up in Queen's Gambit, which we will talk about, and has gone back to films and attempted to step into Charlize Theron's shoes as Furiosa. Are you genuinely an, are you generally an Anya Taylor Joy person?

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

I am not gonna go out of my way because she's like in something to be like, oh my God, it's a must watch. I do find her to be a really interesting screen presence. I think the choices that she makes are often are she has the ability to hold your attention. I, I sometimes feel like the. She is so unusually gorgeous that in roles that don't write that in as kind of part of who this person is, it almost upsets the apple cart as far as your ability to be in the rest of the story and not have it be like, has everyone seen this person, this like alien immortal goddess who is walking among us? Like it, it's, it works a little bit here because it sort of helps her be the con artist because she can be so, so compelling and people find themselves wanting to help her but it really like she, she cannot pull off normal person.

[Alan Sepinwall]

In the Jack Reacher books, they talk all the time. They, they use lots of different, very graphic descriptions of how big Jack Reacher's hands are. You know, it's like it's the size of dinner plates. It's the size of like, you know, a fully cooked turkey. I forget. Exactly. But his, his hands are really goddamn big. And I think about that a lot when I'm like watching Andy Taylor Joy and those eyes because they're like, you know, they have their own like planetary systems or something. It's ridiculous. She is so like you said, alien looking and arresting. I don't think she necessarily always has to play a gorgeous person, but she always like there has to be some acknowledgment that like this is a really unusual looking person. You know, she's always going to stand out in a crowd no matter what. And I do think they play it well here because as you say, like, no matter what situation she's in, people kind of are drawn to her and want to help her out. And some of that is just. She's a good Actor. You know, lucky the character is a good actor at playing. You know, I'm an abuse victim on the run. I'm a nanny. I'm. Whatever it is in this particular moment. But some of it is just like, oh, this is someone really interesting and charismatic, and I would like to remain in their orbit for a little while. You know, let me help them.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Yeah. I. I have yet to see the Anya Taylor Joy role where I am truly transformed by, like, I think Queen's gambit is the breakout for a lot of reasons, and that is one of them. But beyond that initial thing, I have yet to see her in something where I'm like, this is a performance that only she could give, and that this is and is completely transformed from what I imagine this character might have been by what her role is. But, you know, we'll see. It's. It's. I think it will be curious to watch what choices that she makes for what roles to take also, because clearly there is an appetite to put her in stuff. And whether it wants to lean more indie or whether it goes more blockbuster, I think will have a real impact on sort of how her performance develops and, like, how. How that Persona ages over time.

[Alan Sepinwall]

That makes sense. Let's. Let's talk about the two sort of most prominent supporting roles. Nat Banning, have you seen the Grifters?

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

No, I've never seen the Grifters.

[Alan Sepinwall]

The Grifters is amazing. It's so good. I rewatched it, like, a month or two ago, not even realizing that this was coming. And so it was nice to have this in my head. Like, that was the thing that put her on the map. And she. You know, and it's very different because then it's. She's young, you know, she is. She's the temptress. She tries to be a temptress here in one scene. And William Fichtner says something really vicious and misogynist and ageist to her about that, and that's a really good scene there. But how did you feel she was in this role?

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

This is my favorite part of this show, is I always like Annette Bening. And the character, for me, has a lot more texture and interest than the lead character does and certainly than the husband. Exactly. Ex husband, boyfriend character played by Drew Starkey, who is. I mean, I was talking with my colleague, Roxanna Hadati, and she was like, well, he's no Harris Dickinson. And it really does feel like they were hoping there would be more appeal, charisma, texture there than I certainly was getting from that role. But Annette Benning, who plays his mother, the. Not Harris Dickinson's mother, is. Has all of the. Like, every time she's on screen, you're like, oh, this should be. Why. Why are we not following this all the time? It almost upsets the dynamic, the kind of protagonist dynamic here, because I am so much more compelled by her character and what she is pursuing. And honestly, her perspective. Like, she is mostly the villain, but I'm kind of like, Anya Taylor Joy is just a little twerp who's, like, running away like. Like, let's get Annette Benning page. Right? Like, she. This. She worked hard to steal this money, and she deserves to have it back.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, there. There's. There's so much fun in, like, how exasperated she becomes by Lucky. And I think at one point she says something like, you know, how can someone so small cause so much trouble? And it's very easy to see a show, a story told from her perspective and just, you know, I've done all this work I've done, and then suddenly along comes this father, daughter, con team, and they fucked everything up for me. And now somehow they've roped my son into it, and what. What are we even doing here? And I don't get no respect because I'm a. I'm a lady and a male crime business and all of that.

[Aura Advertiser]

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[Alan Sepinwall]

And, yeah, I think I agree with you. She is terrific.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Yeah. And her costumes are great. She has these huge, chunky glasses that she's really, really rocking. And she's got kind of a like, what if Martha Stewart continued to follow a life of crime vibe to her that I think is. I am completely on board with. My greatest regret is that there are not more scenes with her and Oliphant, who would be so fun to watch play off of each other more than they have the opportunity to here.

[Alan Sepinwall]

All right, so let's talk about him. Because last week we were while discussing Deadwood, we noted this was really early in his career. He had not come into his own as a performer yet. He was not always having an easy time accessing his emotions. He seemed often very uncomfortable. And David Milch wrote to that, and he made it work for the character. And it is ultimately a great character. But then what we've seen him do, you know, unjustified and everything since then over the last 15 years, is really just a vastly more confident and relaxed and versatile performer. And, you know, how did you feel he was in this?

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

He is. This is okay. Like, if Anya Taylor Joy phones in a performance, I'M like, okay, I don't. I, I see the face. I don't get a lot here. When Olafant phones in a performance, which I think he's kind of like, this is no version of. This is a. Is a character I have not seen him play a billion times before. Like, he could roll up to set having not seen the script, get handed these lines to play into the telephone and just. And this is what it would be like, except I'm like, hey, it's Timothy Olafa. He's doing such a nice job in, like, go talk in the phone more, please. And his hair is doing that, like, upward swish thing that it is really aged into.

[Alan Sepinwall]

She and Walton Goggins. I think it's a friend. Jim Panawazik joked that, like, he and Goggins have sort of merged into the same person unexpectedly. And I like that.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Oh, it's beautiful. It's very. It's really fantastic. I, I think that the best, the best scenes with him are those flashback scenes where he is teaching the young version of Anya Taylor Joy how to be a little kid criminal. And there's a sort of scene at the end where they have to get really emotional. That too. And it frustrates me because it does feel like the script does not make those interesting or distinctive enough that he has something really indelible to work with. It just feels like a color by numbers opportunity. And yes, I am thrilled to see my favorite typical Timothy Oliphant colors return. Like I wear. I'm happily gonna turn to those colors again and again. Let's paint them on the wall. But. But, like, there's not. There's nothing that really blows my hair back in the way that his hair is always blown back.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Such a good head of hair. Very, very envious.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Is that natural or does he have, like, elaborate work happening up there?

[Alan Sepinwall]

I. I could not even begin to speculate as someone who has just let mine go and put no effort whatsoever into trying to restore it. I'm not even up on what the technologies are.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

If you, if anyone out there is listening to this and knows any secrets, just. I'll never tell. I'm just curious.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Just shoot me tvisgoodpodmail.com or find us on any of our socials.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Yes. Yeah. All right.

[Alan Sepinwall]

The last one on this before we move on to Queen's Gambit. And it gets back to sort of what we were talking about before. This adapts the entire novel. Apple is at the moment, I don't believe, calling this a limited series. So two questions one are you interested in seeing Further Adventures of Locky? And two is this yet another streaming show that should have been a movie.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Yes, it should have been a movie. I would be interested in seeing more of this show almost entirely dependent on who is cast as future guest performers or like recurring performers. Because Lucky to me is not a compelling enough lead where I am signing up just to watch her continue running around like hopping into strangers cars and going like drive. You know, like that's it just doesn't, that doesn't have a strong enough pull for me. If though there are enough guest performers that I really care about if Dale Dickey shows up in season two of Lucky or Cato Flynn, really anyone from

[Alan Sepinwall]

Dell Dickey and Beth Grant as like sisters who run a criminal empire together,

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

give it to me right now. Call it lucky season to have Anya Teller Joy just be running around in the background. Yeah, like if they, if they do a justified with this I could be on board. But short of that I may be. This may be it for me.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, I again, I liked it a little bit more than you do. I agree it should. It could have been movie or at least it could have been, you know, five or six episodes as opposed to seven. But. But I enjoyed it. If there's good guest stars, I will come back. It's not something I'm going to be holding my breath to see more of, but you know, especially in this summer period when there is less stuff to talk about, I found it perfectly entertaining.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

It's certainly better than the Hawk by really exponential degrees.

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[Alan Sepinwall]

now let's talk Queen's Gambit.

[Aura Advertiser]

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[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Queen's Gambit is where we all first met Anya Taylor Joy. It was a complete phenomenon. It was also a Covid era phenomenon. And so as I was looking back at it, I had that experience of like, who was I when I first watched this show? Why was this a phenomenon? Was it that we were all trapped in our homes for a long period of time while this show first came out? And, and so the, the exploration of what, like what this show has meant, it's not that old. We often go back for older shows, but it felt like a useful point to be able to go back and just pinpoint exactly where this came from. So it was a phenomenon. It kind of has disappeared a little bit. It was Adapted from the 1983 novel by Walter Tevis and it follows Anya Taylor Joy as Beth Harmon. She is a fictional child chess prodigy who then grows up into an adult chess wizard. It's set during the 1950s and 60s and she becomes one of the best chess players in the world. And throughout, she is dogged by this immense, almost completely capsizing number of traumas from her childhood, including her parents death, her move to an orphanage, being adopted by another couple, her later drug and alcohol addiction. And all of that is the, the thing that she feels like enables her to play chess, but of course is also preventing her from being able to function as a chess wizard person. And, and so the show follows her from childhood all the way through adulthood in this sort of big triumphant scene. We both watched the finale. Just to revisit, like, what this show was.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I watched a bit of a few other episodes. I think I watched most of the premiere and I watched the penultimate episode two, just to refresh my memory.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Sure. What do you remember when you first watched this show? When it came out? Because What I remember is I was like, oh, Queen's Gambit. And then three weeks later I was like, oh, my God, we're all obsessed with Queen's Gambit. What is going on?

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, this is one of the ones where I don't want to say I missed it, but I was definitely like low man on the totem pole. I thought she was wonderful. I thought parts of it were wonderful. I also felt the same way about this as I did about Scott Frank's previous miniseries, Godless, which is. People have been trying to adapt the Walter Tevis novel for a long time. Alan Scott had had the rights, so he gets a co creator credit on this, even though I don't believe he. You know, most of the final version has much of him in it, but they've been trying to make it as a movie for a long time. And with both Godless and this, it feels like another one of these. It was a movie, we expanded it. And so it's kind of an. It's kind of the wrong length to me in that, like either you can tell the story of her as an adult or you can maybe make it a little bit longer and explore some things. And it. It's kind of neat. At least at the time I felt it was kind of neither fish nor foul in that way. Even though I thought she was great, even though I thought it looked great, even though the chess sequences were really compelling and I was just really bugged by the pacing. And instead, as you say, it became this phenomenon. I had people saying, what the hell are you complaining about? Sepinwall. This is so good. She is so good. And going back and rewatching part of it as opposed to the whole of it, I was able to mostly focus on the good things this time, but I was also not sitting through all seven hours of it. But that was my feeling. And I think Frank has gotten as he's moved along. For those who don't know, he was really a successful screenwriter in the 90s, 2000s and 2000s. He wrote Get Shorty, he wrote out of Sight, which I coincidentally rewatched last week, forgetting that it was a Scott Frank screenplay. That movie is a goddamn banger. He wrote Logan, et cetera. And for the last eight, nine years, he's mostly been doing tv. His most recent thing is also for Netflix, Department Q, which I believe we both really, really like.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Yeah, Department Q is great. On the other hand, he also made Monsieur Spade for amc, which should be so much my shit. It should be.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Like I should just Be like screaming from the rooftops. It has. It is so boring and plotting and Clive Owen is playing Sam Spade from, like. But it just is. It has. Yeah, it is inert all the way through.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah. So some of it's really good. Godless, I think, would have either been a great movie or it should have been much longer and spent more time on, like, the women in the town.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

It should have gone full deadwood. Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah. It's kind of giving you just enough to wish you had more or just enough that you wish you had less. And I think. I think Queen's Gambit is a little bit better in that regard. But still, like, you still feel the fact of. I'm a feature writer who knows how to write features. How do I make this work over two to three times, you know, the length that I would ordinarily be playing.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

And I continue. I also went back and watched it and was taken by a number of things about this show that I had mostly forgotten. When I sat down to watch the finale. I had completely forgotten how much of it is about her friendship with this woman named Jolene and how much of it is about her getting clean at the end somehow that I had. It was like. I remembered the last episode being entirely about this giant chess tournament. Question.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes, it's a chess tournament in Moscow.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

In Moscow. And instead it, like, the whole first half of that episode is about her ability to get well enough to be in the chess tournament. And. And I. I also liked those scenes better than I remember liking them before. But I. I was mostly taken by the aesthetic of it and how thoroughly conceived and how beautifully enacted things like the costumes and the set design and the design of how she imagines the chess happening in her head. All of these things. And so as I was going back and thinking, like, why was this show. Like, why was everyone just head over heels for this show? How much of it was aesthetic as plot, almost aesthetic as. As hook, and how much of it was the show itself? And I tend to think aesthetic was. And there are. This is also an endemic thing for television. It's not always this aesthetic. It's often not this aesthetic. But I like. I think aesthetic is why people like twisted metal. That peacock show about the cars that drive, which is entirely just a hollowed out, like, monster truck with a guy going like, ah. You know, and that's like the whole show.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I'm sorry, what's the guy doing

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

with the rock fingers? Like, that's that whole show. Lessons in chemistry, I think, similarly is an aesthetic in search of a story that I. Yes, yes, yes. And at a moment when a lot of what, how people engage with visual media is social media and like an Instagram look that is. It sort of almost doesn't matter what that look is as long as it's a thorough look first and then characters and story later. Yeah, I think Queen's Gambit, that is a huge part of why it was interesting. But I, I don't mean to then say that it was bad at its job. That scene with the chest, all the scenes with the chess tournament at the end, the way that the hallway is this kind of elongated and inverted chessboard scheme with these like dark floor and these white dashes in it. All of her clothing playing with white and black and then ace like off kilter shapes. The, the whole sort of visual thing of how she sees the chest in her brain is so striking. How did you feel about the. How she sees chess in her brain? Because I am kind of mixed of two minds about it.

[Alan Sepinwall]

The interesting thing is because I watched a little bit more than you do. There are scenes, especially in the penultimate episode where she's trying to sober up and it's not quite working and so she's going on another bender. But you will see there and you'll see in some of the earlier episodes like she's just playing chess games in her head and sometimes you are seeing the pieces projected on the ceiling in front of her and sometimes you're just looking at Anya Taylor Joy's face and you understand exactly, you know what it is that she's feeling as she does this. It's a really good looking show. Frank, I feel like is another one of those. Sometimes you have a guy who's a writer for a long time and then they move into directing and it turns out, oh, they're a very good writer. They're a great director. I think he is one of those. I think the look of this more than anything else is what's driving you through. She looks amazing. The outfits they put her in are amazing. You know, Beth, through a variety of ways, she sort of keeps coming into money and seemingly has an unlimited clothing budget and is just wearing all of the coolest like mod fashion.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Good for her. Good for her. She's got the little hair flip, the little.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, I mean the, like the white coat she's wearing in the final scene of the show. It's just like they, they're knowing exactly how to dress her, they're knowing exactly how to style her hair, how to make up that like incredible Face all of these things, how to accentuate the eyes. So she looks really good on top of just her skills and her charisma as a performer. And like you say, the set design is really good. Like, we, you know, we've seen Mad Men cover a lot of this same period, and almost none of this looked like Mad Men. It had just its own sense of, like, love for the period. And it feels just as 60s, but it's not like the exact 60s you've seen before in prestige TV.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

It also then gets the benefit of she's playing in international locations. And so it is not as locked into the Mad Men like we're pretty much in New York or sometimes in California or like one episode in Italy thing. So they have more globe to. To mess around with, which I think helps. I think the other thing that I did not appreciate as much at the time and, and look back on very fondly now is the really deep bench of secondary character actors that they have of playing around in here. And here's the thing. Like, I think one of the ways to make Anya Taylor Joy's whole physicality work is to fill the screen with other people who look, and I mean this politely weird, who just have interesting, unusual faces and presences. So, for example, Thomas Brody Sangster, who I know best, and I assume most people know best as the kid, the drummer kid from Love. Actually, he's Ferb.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Excuse me. He is the voice of Ferb.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Great.

[Alan Sepinwall]

He says one line per episode.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

But his face, as an on screen performer, his face has always had this uncannily angelic quality to it, which is why that scene in Love actually works as well as it does to have him in here. And you're like, oh, it's that kid with his bizarre elfin face. But now he's got a little. He's got a little goatee, he's got a little mustache on. Like, suddenly, like, that is kind of an interesting. He plays a. A chess, like, early. What is that? He's not a hipster. He's the 50s version of a beat. He's a. He's a 50s, a beatnik guy. Love. Love all of his ridiculous beatnik outfits. You also then, I mean, Bill Camp is in here. Henry Melling is in here. These are just people who have fascinating looks to them and it makes the whole world make more sense with her in it.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And Bill Camp, who never gives a bad performance, you know, never. Roger Ebert used to say, like any movie, if it has Em. Emmet Walsh or Harry Dean Stanton in it, can automatically not be terrible because of them. I think Bill Camp is definitely in that category. He just shows up and you're like, okay, you know, he was in Drive Away Dolls, which is a pretty bad movie. But, like. Like, his scene is wonderful, and there's a stillness to his performance as well. He plays the custodian who teaches her chess in the first place. He doesn't like to talk. He clearly is not comfortable around people, doesn't think girls should play chess. And yet something about her and her abilities, but also her vulnerability draws him to her, and yet he's still barely opening up at all. And so you have these two people who don't really know how to communicate, and so it's just on their faces. And those are two great faces, by the way. Respect to Thomas. Brodie Sangster, in addition to being Ferb and the kid from Love, actually he played everyone's favorite character on Game of Thrones, Jojen Reed.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Great.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Tell me about your memories. What's your favorite Jojen Reed moment?

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

I don't know. I mean, I can't even. That show. We're gonna. That's a separate. That's a. We're gonna set that aside. We're gonna take. We're gonna table Jojen.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay. So we're gonna. We're guys, like, our next Patreon is. Forget about. We're doing the leftovers. It's definitely an all Jojen Reed episode.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Jojen all the time. So Marielle Heller also plays Alma as her adopted adoptive mother. Really fantastic. And I think Moses Ingram is. Is really great as Jolene, her. Her friend who gets away with calling her a lot of, you know, like, white slurs, which I think is. Race is a kind of interesting element of this show that you could easily. I don't think it needed to do. And I'm. I don't think that it was, like, why. It is a fascinating choice to be included. I don't want to say that it's extraneous because it. That feels really dismissive of something that's really serious and important. But because their friendship is so important, it's lovely to then also have these race elements in the show. Except that then also feels like, what are you show. Are you a chess show or are you trying to do, like, social. Just, like, what is the role of constantly pointing out the fact that she is white and her friend is black? I'm not sure. Yeah. Mixed motives going on in there, I think.

[Alan Sepinwall]

But I agree with you. Ingram. Ingram is really good in the Connection. You need to have someone, like, especially when camp is out of the picture, for her to open up too, but also someone who's going to be willing to talk. And, you know, Jolene is like, she is an extrovert, whereas Beth is an introvert. And so that's a good combination. Although then they start playing squash for.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Yes. To get her sober. I don't think this. I don't think this is a traditionally recommended, reliable form of kicking one's addiction to pills that allow you to visualize chess, but it worked for her. So. So good job.

[Alan Sepinwall]

All right. Okay. So better show with best friends playing squash. This or the Americans.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Oh, the Americans, no question. Better show with best friend slash brothers playing squash. This or Bluey.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I mean, is Bluey very good? I don't know. No, it's Bluey.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

I read a lot of fan. I've read a lot of fanfic.

[Alan Sepinwall]

That was okay. All right. Okay, let's. All right, we're shutting it down. Mistakes were made. I podcast canceled. All of this is my fault. Yes, Catherine, was the TV good this week?

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

It was fine. It will. It is a TV shaped object that will fill the TV shaped hole in your life until the great next thing comes out. And what might it be?

[Alan Sepinwall]

Oh, my goodness. So next week we will be doing Stuart Fails to Save the Universe, a new HBO Max. It's yet another spin off of the Big Bang Theory, focusing on Kevin Sussman's character, Stuart Bloom, who runs a comic book store. But this is a single camera science fiction comedy where Stuart and a bunch of other very minor Big Bang Theory characters are traveling across the multiverse trying to fix the timeline after it was broken by other characters from Big Bang Theory who may or may not appear in Stuart Fails to Save the Universe. Suffice it to say, it is very, very, very, very different from the source material. And as a result, what are we doing, Catherine, as our classic segment, I

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

have here in my notes. Notes, Alan explains Mrs. Colombo. I think we are also going to be considering other unlikely spin offs, including Mork and Mindy and the Brady Variety Hour. But I know nothing at all about Mrs. Colombo, and I will be looking nothing up. So Alan will get to tell me all about whatever that means.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, so we just want to talk about, like, spin offs that if you were to explain to someone who had only ever seen the original show what a related show would be like, they would say, what?

[Aura Advertiser]

What?

[Alan Sepinwall]

I'm sorry, what? Much like me responding to Catherine's listing of various types of Bluey fanfiction I did not.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

I want to be clear. There is so much other stuff that I did not say.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I thank you for that. At least there's no homework for next week. You can if you wanted to. The entire Brady Variety show pilot is on like YouTube on the Sid and Marty Croft channel. So if you want to subject yourself to that, as I did, you can. You don't have to. We'll be explaining everything as we go. When we're not podcasting, we are writers. You can find my writing@whatsalan watching.com. you can find Catherine'[e-mail] my Rod Serling biography, A Journey into the twilight zone with TV's first visionary is available for pre order. You can find links to all that stuff in the show notes.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

If you want to get in touch with us directly, you can find at. Find us at tvisgoodpodmail. We also have personal emails. I found one in my inbox recently from a lovely listener who mentioned that she really liked our conversation about vampire Lestat and really hopes that we come back and talk about more vampire Lestat. We will see when we get to the end of the season whether we want to just mention how much we but you should read Alan's recaps of vampire Lestat because it's really great.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I've not seen the finale yet, but the penultimate episode. You'll have seen the finale by the time this episode comes out. But all I've seen is the penultimate, which just some scenes that left my jaw on the floor. Like they're really doing some next level stuff this year.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

What a, what a great time. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. I have been checking out after my my plea to you. I have been checking out some of the additional like comments and ratings and I just really want to reiterate how much I appreciate everyone for doing that because it's so, so, so helpful for other listeners to be able to find us. And it also just, you know, I, I open it and then I see them and I go oh, that's nice. And it makes me feel nice. So thank you.

[Alan Sepinwall]

It also there was again one where people, someone was like Alan needs to stop talking about the Knicks. So yeah. Which I get. I understand nonetheless, you if you're watching this on YouTube, I'm wearing a Nicks T shirt today.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Something. Yeah, it's something that we care about a lot and it is the only way to be the algorithm.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And we hate the algorithm. But we love tv.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Thank you to Joe Kennedy for our theme music. Kate Bergner for our artwork and Riley Routh for editing.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Thank you for listening.

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[Alan Sepinwall]

acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Kathryn VanArendonk]

Hi, I'm Jessi Klein. And I'm Liz Feldman. And we are back for another season of Here to Make Friends, which is our podcast that is really just a to invite amazing guests onto our show and trick them into being our friends. Great guests like Linda Cardellini, Jeff Hiller, Paulina Porizkova, other people. And we'll also give you a sneak peek into what our text thread looks like. The kind of stuff we write about like should I buy this? Am I a unicorn? Do you think I'm a unicorn? Follow here to make friends wherever you get your podcast and watch us on YouTube.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.