Does The Bear earn a starred review?

Summary

TV IS GOOD – “DOES THE BEAR EARN A STARRED REVIEW?” Podcast Summary
Host: Alan Sepinwall
Co-host: Katherine Van Arendonk
First Guest: Tatiana Maslany
Date: June 29, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode devotes an in-depth conversation to the FX/Hulu series The Bear, discussing its surprising rise to prominence, dissecting the just-released final season, and exploring its broader impact on TV—particularly around debates about genre, episode structure, and star-making performances. The episode also introduces the podcast's first guest segment, with actor Tatiana Maslany paying tribute to Cheers and, by happenstance, the late sitcom director James Burrows. The discussion features entertaining banter, sharp critical analysis, and a candid breakdown of The Bear’s achievements and stumbles.

---

The Bear: From Under-the-Radar to Cultural Touchstone

[Begins at 07:04]

Main Theme and Purpose

• Alan and Katherine examine The Bear from its humble launch in 2022, with almost no marketing, to becoming a central pillar in TV discourse—including Emmy buzz, debates about binge vs. weekly releases, and the boundary between comedy and drama.
• The Bear is recognized for transforming the fortunes of stars Jeremy Allen White, Ayo Edebiri, and Ebon Moss-Bachrach, and for capturing intense critical and audience attention.

Quote

“When it premiered in 2022, there was...no big marketing push. I remember the screeners just kind of sitting in my account for a while and being like, is that show good? Probably not.”
—Katherine (07:18)

---

The Bear: Series Evolution, Highs and Lows

[Discussion from 10:08 – 14:19]

• Both hosts praise Seasons 1 and 2 as the show's creative peak, particularly Season 2’s standalone episodes (“Forks”, “Fishes”).
• Alan speculates that The Bear was initially envisioned as a three-season show before exploding into a five-season run, leading to “one season worth of story spread out over two” (Seasons 3 and 4).
• They agree that later seasons became “more self indulgent, more noodling… much more like talking about both the importance of restaurants and the importance of The Bear as an avatar” (Alan, 12:37), with exemplary moments but increasing filler.

Quote

“There are very few episodes of television where you can watch someone decide to take themselves seriously.”
—Katherine (12:09, on “Forks”)

---

Season Five Structure

[15:40 – 20:24]

• The fifth and final season takes a (mostly) real-time format: the first six episodes chart one highly stressful day leading to a pivotal service, with episode 7 focusing on the night’s service itself, and episode 8 as a denouement.
• The hosts appreciate the season’s commitment to the lived, physical experience of working in the kitchen—after the more “up its own butt” tendencies (Katherine, 17:11) of previous seasons.
• This season is described as a return to form, favoring sensory immediacy over heavy-handed metaphor.

Quote

“The best Bear stuff is where it lets the metaphor just sit and you see the steak and you know… you get all of the big cloud of other stuff that is happening. The worst is the Bear when Carmi looks at the camera and he’s like, ‘This steak is trauma.’ And you’re like, no, I got it.”
—Katherine (18:49)

---

The Stars Become Stars

[20:24 – 28:27]

• The hosts delve into why Jeremy Allen White’s Carmy is so compelling, noting both his “beautiful face and curly hair” (Katherine, 21:09) and his soulful, vulnerable performance.
• They explore the evolution of the three leads—Carmy (White), Sidney (Ayo Edebiri), and Richie (Ebon Moss-Bachrach)—and how casting and writing work in concert.
• Alan notes The Bear’s refreshing deviation from “brilliant but abusive TV genius” tropes, praising Carmy as “so hard on himself and so hard to read… a very different way.”

Quote

“He’s very good at that vulnerability. He’s got these eyes that say a lot. Carmi is not really a talker… There is something extremely soulful about him that makes like, makes you want to keep watching him even when he’s flailing around, and even when things are becoming as disastrous as they often are in that kitchen.”
—Alan (24:29)

• Katherine highlights that the show’s “obsession with food perfection understands that we actually just want to look at people’s faces, like normal people’s faces.”
  (26:26)

---

Hangout vs. Trauma: Is “The Bear” a Comedy?

[28:31 – 31:41]

• Alan and Katherine reject the “comedy” label, despite the show’s awards recognition in comedic categories.
• They discuss how the show’s tone is fundamentally anxious and stress-inducing, not light or comedic, though it does contain flashes of humor—especially in recent seasons.

Quote

“If you watch the show as written, however, it is pretty clear that…It’s not, these are all of our friends and they’re hanging out. It’s like, are these all our friends? Can they all hang out? And that’s not a comedy.”
—Katherine (29:36)

---

Spoiler-Filled Discussion: The Bear’s Final Season

[31:41 onward]

Notable Moments, Memorable Characters, and Structure

Local Flavor, Stakes, and Comic Relief

• The hosts praise the extended cameo of legendary Chicago meteorologist Tom Skilling (“the kind of stunt casting that gets it right,” Katherine, 33:10).
• Comic relief returns to form with the “Facks,” now used sparingly and more effectively. Matty Matheson’s Neil Fack earns a special shout-out.
• Katherine notes, “If you’re going to make an argument for this show as a comedy, Tom Skilling is where the rubber meets the road.” (34:01)

Service Meltdown: Stress and Catharsis

• The first four episodes ramp up the chaos and tension, with Murphy’s Law scenarios piling up, followed by a cathartic payoff as the team begins to work together and overcome obstacles.
• The season’s structure supports bingeing, and Katherine describes it as “the best argument for a binge drop of the bear.” (37:21)

Finale and Narrative Padding

• Some arcs (the “Gary” episode/backstory for Richie) are discussed as unnecessary padding, with both hosts relieved that the consequences are quickly resolved.
• Katherine: “You could do the car accident [without Gary]. I did not need to know the story.” (41:36)

Sentiment and Restraint

• A subtle tribute: Ebra says “as you wish” to offscreen character—as a nod to Rob Reiner (44:33).
• Katherine praises the show’s handling: “If you had shot it differently…it would have felt egregious and exploitative. Instead, it’s just so brief. And so it’s lovely.” (44:56)

Subplots, Resonance, and Closure

• The “air rights” plot is acknowledged as almost unnecessary busywork, but endearing thanks to strong performances.
• Improvement is seen in the integration of supporting characters, notably the Facks and Oliver Platt’s Jimmy.

Carmi’s Final Arc: Architecture, Monologue, and Plausibility

• Alan and Katherine are both critical of Carmi’s final arc as a would-be architect, culminating in a much-derided, lengthy monologue.
• Katherine: “My bigger issue… is that Carmi even wanting to do architecture and then the show suggesting that this is both a good and plausible next step for him is the kind of thing that I found most frustrating…” (51:53)

Emotional Closure: Relationships, Romance, Theories

• The finale delivers some “nice payoff,” especially Sydney receiving news of the Michelin stars and her emotional hug with Carmi (53:15).
• The show resists pairing Carmi and Sidney romantically, instead focusing on their creative/professional partnership.
• Alan: “I really just like the idea of them as spiritual, you know, kin. And they are quote, unquote cousins, too.” (57:32)
• Instead, Richie and Jess’s understated romance concludes with them flying to Japan—“sexy stuff.” (58:25)
• Fan favorite characters return for the finale birthday scene—Bob Odenkirk, Gillian Jacobs, Josh Hartnett, and more, in a closing family tableau.

---

Awards, Legacy & The State of TV

[62:10 – 64:16]

• The hosts reflect on The Bear’s awards fate—its brief Emmy dominance, later snub, and the prospect of a “farewell” win.
• Persistent confusion around genre categories (“comedy vs. drama” and “dramedy”), and how the TV Academy wrestles with evolving forms.

---

Cheers, James Burrows, and Tatiana Maslany

[64:55]

Transition: Celebrating Sitcom Craft & Guest Segment

• The passing of James Burrows, legendary director and Cheers co-creator, becomes an impromptu tribute segment.
• Katherine: “James Burrows is really the person who shapes our contemporary understanding of how timing works…how you become friends with someone on television. He was the master of it.” (66:58)
• Alan describes how Burrows’ stage background revolutionized the feel of multi-cam sitcoms, giving shows like Cheers their remarkable vitality and longevity.
• Burrows’ signature: “He could take good things and make them great. And he could take great things and make them extraordinary.” (71:22)

---

Guest Star: Tatiana Maslany on Cheers

[73:27 – 78:17]

• Maslany discusses her love of “living inside” a TV show and returning to Cheers as an adult.
• She lauds the show’s gender dynamics—how Shelley Long and Kirstie Alley gave their characters “a lot of baggage to carry…in a bar setting, in a very masculine setting.” (74:49)
• Both she and Alan reflect on the patience networks once had for shows to find their legs, contrasting with today’s trigger-happy cancellation culture.

“There was time for that show to find its legs…It was like two seasons for them to be like, we're gonna give this a chance.”
—Tatiana Maslany (76:20)

---

Final Thoughts

• Katherine: “The TV was good. The TV was pretty good.” (78:19)
• Alan and Katherine provide teasers for next week’s episode (Legally Blonde prequel and Hannibal), encourage ratings and feedback, and sign off.

---

Notable Quotes & Moments — At a Glance

• On the evolving TV landscape:
  “We hate the algorithm. But we love TV.” — Alan (79:46)

• Katherine in full comedic meta mode, talking about writing a Bluey book despite not knowing the show:
  “It's going to be fine, guys.” (60:41)

• On the Bear’s identity:
  “Is the TV good?” — Recurring closing line

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [07:04] – Start of deep Bear discussion
• [10:54] – Relationship to The Bear and Season breakdown
• [15:40] – Structure of Final Season & Episode Breakdown
• [20:24] – On stars and performances
• [28:31] – “Comedy” label debate
• [31:41] – Spoilers & Notable moments (Tom Skilling cameo)
• [38:49–40:28] – Comic relief and the Facks
• [44:33] – Tribute to Rob Reiner (“As you wish”—Ebra)
• [51:53] – Carmi’s architectural ambitions
• [66:58] – Tribute to James Burrows/Transition to Guest segment
• [73:27] – Tatiana Maslany guest segment
• [78:19] – Final thoughts and next week’s preview

---

Language and Tone

• Conversation is witty, deeply knowledgeable, and free-flowing, with playful asides and self-aware humor. Hosts alternate between fan-like enthusiasm and critical evaluation, capturing the spirit of The Bear itself.

---

For first-time listeners: This episode provides a masterclass in TV criticism—fun, rigorous, and grounded in admiration for great storytelling and craft. Even without watching The Bear, you’ll come away understanding its cultural impact, why it resonated, and how it earned (or didn’t) its metaphorical “starred review.”

Transcript

[Acast Advertiser]

Quick question. When was the last time a display ad changed your mind? Now think about the last time a friend told you about something they loved. Different feeling, right? That's how podcast advertising works. A host who's built real trust with their audience talks about your brand in their own words, in their own voice. It doesn't interrupt the experience. It's part of it. With acast, you can access the world's largest podcast marketplace. Choose the right shows, the right audiences, the right format, then watch the data tell you it worked. You're not buying impressions, you're buying influence. Learn more by visiting acast.com advertise.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I'm Alan Sepinwall. I'm a TV critic.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

I am Katherine Van Arendonk. I am also a TV critic.

[Alan Sepinwall]

We are friends and neighbors, and we love to talk about TV with each other.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

And now we are going to talk about it with you.

[Alan Sepinwall]

That's right. This is the TV is good podcast and. And every week we're gonna look at one current show and one classic show as we try to answer an important question. Is the TV good?

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

This week, we're gonna be devoting much of our episode to a grand, sweeping consideration of the bear, which just released all of its final season on fx, Hulu, Disney, wherever you get this particular service in your life. On June 25th, I think only the

[Alan Sepinwall]

first two episodes are on FX, but the whole thing is streaming on Hulu because the TV business is just weird that way. Yes, we will also have our first ever guest star, sort of as Tatiana Maslany, inadvertently helps us pay tribute to the late, great sitcom director James Burroughs.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yes, it's gonna be an exciting episode. I have many, many bare thoughts which I'm very happy to get into. But first, we want to make sure that everyone knows that our next Patreon episode is gon out next week. It's about the Americans. The finale of the Americans. We are so appreciative to everyone who has signed up for the Patreon so they can get access to that episode. We recorded it, and we were so normal and chill.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Very, very. The most normal.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

We had a completely, I think, proportional level of emotional response. I did not sing at all.

[Alan Sepinwall]

We were very chill, especially when male robot came up.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yeah. You know, and. And I actually. I was so normal about it that I definitely have not just gone back and started rewatching the Americans from the beginning with my spouse.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Oh, Catherine, can I come over? Like, I want to do it, too.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Which episodes do you want to come over for? I'll just flag Can I just move

[Alan Sepinwall]

in for a couple of weeks?

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yeah, I mean, sure. Our guest room, you know, it's. It's always up there.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I can run back over here for meals. You don't have to feed me.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Well, the problem is he has like, a real job, so we only watch like one or two episodes a day, so it's going to be a long commitment.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Look, that is just a much faster rate than we can watch anything over here. You know, my wife loves Survival of the Thickest. I have screeners for the final season of that on Netflix. And I said, hey, do you want to watch that tonight? And she's like, I do in theory, but yeah, yeah.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Oh, man, I'm so familiar with that. Eventually I will watch the other Bennet Sister, which has been a I do in theory show for me for a long time. But I'm really excited to finally check that out. When that.

[Alan Sepinwall]

When we were atx, my wife kept sort of asking everyone, what show should I watch? What show should I watch? And that one came up a lot, in part because Britbox was sort of a big presence in Austin, but also just people seem to think that that would be her thing and so maybe we'll do that together too.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Oh, yeah, that'd be good. The other thing that I wanted to flag housekeeping wise is that I was just checking in on our. The like, ratings and reviews that we have on a variety of podcast apps. And I just really wanted to thank everyone who has taken a minute to go over there and like click the stars button. And I. There are some really nice, a couple really nice comments also in some of these platforms and we appreciate it so much. I know you all understand that when you are looking to see whether a podcast is actually worth listening to, you look at the, like, how many stars it has and how many and like, whether the comments are actually any good. Certainly I do because I trust them a lot more than whatever random algorithm serves me a thing.

[Tatiana Maslany]

So.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

So if. If it is at all within your soul, if, if you wake up within the next week and it just feels like the spirit has moved you to. You know, I'm not going to pass like the little collection plate or anything, but, you know, we could play a little hymn and just be like. To just feel like what I understand Christianity is not particularly your paradigm, but it's like, does. Does the. Does the spirit move you to just hit the stars this week?

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, smash that, like, button, as the kids said 10 years ago.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yeah, I don't think the kids say smash that like button anymore?

[Alan Sepinwall]

No. I'm not even sure anyone says the kids anymore.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Well, I. I do. I do. Also, I have had a brusque awakening about what constitutes pop culture for the tweens, because in a fit of end of the school year mania, I've discovered that my younger daughter, or my older daughter suddenly remembered that we have a color printer. And I went. I woke up one morning and her room was normal. And then I woke up the next morning and it was covered with dozens of 8 1/2 by 11 printed sheets of paper of various pop cultural. And there is not a single TV show among them. And so I. I need to look into my own home and heart and really assess what's going on.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Look, and you're a TV critic and you can't even make that happen. I've more successfully indoctrinated mine. But we thank you for listening to or watching a podcast about television here in the year of our Lord 2026. And if you can do those reviews or ratings, it's really great. Both to encourage people who are searching, but also, like we say at the end of the episode, we hate the algorithm, but this is sort of the only way to beat it.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

So. Yeah. Yeah. And if somebody could figure out how to mock up a TV is good logo and then insert it into some kind of aesthetic Kawaii posters, Pinterest collection, that would also be helpful for me personally. But I understand that that's a. That's a bigger ask. And probably this is like the most

[Alan Sepinwall]

vulnerable I've ever heard your voice in all the time I've known you.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

I was like, I don't even think you know who Sixpence none the Richer is and that there they are. Anyway. Okay, all right, all right. We're gonna shave. We're gonna shake it off. We're gonna talk about the bear.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Bear.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Let's do it. Okay. I am assuming that if you are the kind of person who is listening to us on a podcast like this, you already know about the bear, or at least you have heard about the bear. But just in case. The Bear, I think, is a pretty surprising show to have reached the level of discourse that it has. When it premiered 2022, there was. There was no big marketing push. I remember the screeners just kind of sitting in my account for a while and being like, is that show good? Probably not. I don't know. I will check it out. We will see.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I watched a couple of episodes. I'm like, this is really stressful, and I'm not sure it's good. And I kind of stopped. And then, yes, then that first week happened.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yes. There was no big marketing push. It was not ip, which is also, you know, most of the big, many of the big shows that make it stuff like House of the Dragon has been. There was no sense that this was going to be like a major Emmys contender. I had no way of knowing in 2022 that when I opened up my inbox in 2026, I would get an email informing me of the bear slash Crate and Barrel collab.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yep, I got that too, because it's

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

a very small show. Ultimately. It's a. It's a show about a guy named Carmen Berzotto who inherits his family's sandwich shop after his brother dies. And at the end of the fifth and last season, which as we mentioned, came out last week, this show is now at the center of so many of the major conversations about, like, what is happening in television. It's like a binge versus weekly episode drop central conversation point, how to define a comedy versus a drama. Endless sub tweeting and not so sub tweeting about whether or not the Bear deserves the comedy nominations it has gotten or whether it should be called a drama. It's the center of a kind of prestige versus cozy questions in TV storytelling, whether or not it's a cultural slur to call everyone cousin. These are all elements of the Bear.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Jeremy Allen White, I.A. debery and Eben Moss Bacharach all becoming really big, incredibly ubiquitous stars over the course of this. It's really like you will get these viral hits sometimes on Netflix, like Squid Game, which arrive with very little promotion, but that's Netflix. And usually they're really high concept things. And this was FX on Hulu. I think it was still called FX on Hulu back then. But it's also, it's this weird, again, super stressful show set in a restaurant. And somehow like over that first week or so, everyone was losing their mind about it. And as sometimes happens, I went back and I realized, no, this is, as you get more into it, this is really great. And, you know, it has been among the more dominant forces in TV conversation over these last five years.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yeah, we should sort of jump into our bear conversation. How are we going to structure this, do you think?

[Alan Sepinwall]

All right, so let's. We're going to talk more broadly at first about both the entire run of the show and some of our overall thoughts on this final season. And then eventually towards the end, we will get into specific spoilers. We will warn you before that, the. This season has shorter episodes for the most part. You know, like five of. Of the eight are only half an hour. The other three are a bit longer. One of them is very long. But so in theory a lot of you will have binged it already. If not, you can save the last bit of this discussion for later on and jump ahead to Tatiana and James Burroughs and all of that. So what is your relationship beyond the start of it with the Bear?

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Catherine I really, I was one of the ones who really came around to the first season and I really liked the second season actually. I think the second season reminded me of a big kind of half cheesy, Half Serious Adult Drama,'80s Film of the kind that there are not a lot being made. Just a realist. Like here are some people in extreme circumstances. And it was sexy and it was. Everything was blue tinted, which is what I was led to believe. All of the sex was blue tinted in the 80s. And it was, you know, it was. I liked the. Where it ended. And it was also the season where the Bear really started to get into standalone episodes. Forks is in that second season.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Oh God. That's the one where Richie goes. For those of you who don't obsessively remember episode titles, Richie has a week long apprenticeship at the best restaurant in the world run by Olivia Colman, and completely like his personality entirely changes over the course of it and he discovers the magic of what restaurants can do. He starts wearing suits, you know, he sees Carmi's vision, he likes Sid, et cetera. It's one of the great TV episodes, honestly.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

He decides to take himself seriously as a person. And there are very few episodes of television where you can watch someone decide to take themselves seriously. And it just is. And most of it is this beautiful externalized realization of what is happening inside of him. And that is so much of the strength of the Bear. I then got quite frustrated with seasons three and especially with four.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I mean, I'm with you on one and two, definitely. I think two is the best season of the show. It has, you know, the standalone episodes, Marcus in Denmark and Copenhagen and the Fishes, which is the Bersato family dinner that goes awry. And then the soft opening of the restaurant. There's like four or five absolute bangers. And the rest of the episodes are good too. There's talk, we don't know for sure, that Christopher Storr, the creator of the show, who does not do really do interviews or does not put himself out there in a way that a lot of people in similar positions to him do planned this as a three season show and then it exploded into what it's become. And so suddenly we've had five seasons and so seasons three and four are basically one season worth of story spread out over two. It becomes a lot more self indulgent, a lot more noodling, you know, lifeless. It becomes much more like talking about both the importance of restaurants and the importance of the bear as, you know, an avatar and a representative of all the great things restaurants do. And there's some really good stuff in there. And the fourth season has a couple of my favorite episodes. One is Worms, which is Sidney, like taking care of her niece for an episode.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

A great episode.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And Bears, which is the wedding episode with the biggest table in the history of the universe.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

I do not like bears. But fair.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I mean that's one of the things that they started leaning into as the show became a success is stunt casting. And so that one has a million guest stars in it, including Brie Larson who I thought was good. But it's. There's definitely. It felt padded. It felt very, very padded and very much like he did not. The success of the show was coming to hurt the show at this point.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Now we come to this fifth season and they have done either done away with very special episodes entirely or seven of the eight episodes of the season are basically one very long special episode.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

An interesting way of. Yes. Thinking about it. I think it's actually because. So the structure of this fifth season is mostly 24 or the pit style episodes one through seven. It's an eight episode season. Episodes one through seven are sort of in real time. Ish. Not quite. But they are all one single day leading up to this final. This big service. Carmi has announced and the. The previous night that. That he is going to be leaving the restaurant. Everyone is super shaken by this car or IO is going to be. Sydney is going to be the new head chef and he's just going to be here helping out to help transition them to this new paradigm. And so these first seven episodes are all leading up to. Or the first six episodes lead up to episode seven. Episode seven is that service. And it is a longer episode for me. One through six is one kind of thing. Seven is a different thing and then eight is a different thing.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes.

[Acast Advertiser]

All right.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And we'll get into detail on all that. I can see it. But it's interesting because the show really did become notable. I mean the first episode, the thing that really people were talking about in the first season is the seventh episode out of eight review, which is where Sidney mistakenly sets the new online pre order system to take unlimited orders. And the kitchen is overwhelmed. And it's shot in real time, over 20 minutes. It looks like a continuous take. Even though I think they did four or five takes and stitched them together. And that's the one everybody was talking about. And very clearly Christopher Storr and the people he works with on the show looked at that and said, all right, well, what other experiments can we do? And so they started doing a lot of that in 2 and 3 and 4. Season 3 opens with basically a tone poem. It's this non chronological glimpse of all of the stops Carmi has made in his career along the way to the Bear. Plotless. There's just a bunch of different things like that. And that became what the show was known for, for good and for ill. And so it's interesting that like he has almost entirely dropped that this year. Even that seventh episode, which I agree is a bit different from the first six, is still to a degree a standard Bear episode in that like, okay, we're serving food, you know, we're. Everything is built to this. So why do you think, is it just because he's used up all of the other ideas over the course of the four, or do you think that there was something specifically you want to do the final season? You want to do it this way?

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

I kind of think that this was its own idea or was an idea that he would have had earlier. It's not that he was looking for this other kind of episode, artsy episode to do, but the, the swing of this show has always gone from we have these really tangible, sensory, lived in experiences and then it swings over into super, super thinky and heady abstract themes. And then it swings back into sensory. And the season, I think this season is doing after season four, which is way up its own butt, swings all the way back for season five into the like lived experiences of these people and the very physical realities of this kitchen. And then that last episode is the kind of swing back to the middle where it is trying to stitch those two things together, which is always what the bear wants to be doing. It wants to be saying, you know, I'm working on this piece at the time that I. We are recording this. I'm not sure if that piece will be up by over the time you're listening to it. Maybe you'll see it, maybe you won't have. I'm not sure. But I, I talk about in that piece how Much. The bear loves metaphor. And how every single, like, steak is like. It's not just a steak. It's like the whole memory of every steak you've ever had combined with your feelings about mentorship.

[Tatiana Maslany]

Right.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Like this. This scallop is trauma. No cigar is just a cigar. And the best bear stuff is where it lets the metaphor just sit and you see the stake and you know, because you are an intelligent viewer, like, you get all of the big cloud of other stuff that is happening. The worst is the bear when then Carmia looks at the camera and he's like, this steak is trauma. And you're like, no, I. I got it. I. I did get it. And he's like, I don. That you did. And season four, this is why I don't like bears. It's because every single person is basically looking at the camera and being like, when you're here, your family.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes, it is Olive Garden, the series. There's a lot of moments like that. There's at least one when you're here, your family moment in this season.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yes, yes.

[Alan Sepinwall]

But yeah, I actually thought season three was more up its butt than season four. Season four, to me, felt a little bit like a course correction. Although I think they may have filmed them together, which again, gets back to this idea that it was just one long self indulgence season that they spread out over two years because. And let's get into this now. Over the course of the show, the three leads became huge stars and were in everything. And so suddenly it became difficult to get everyone together. It's kind of a miracle. We've had five seasons of this show over five years.

[Acast Advertiser]

Yes.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Like, they've kept to an annual cadence. Only really slow horses does that. And they do like six episodes. I mean, I guess shrinking does a few others, but not a lot. And so it's impressive that they've been able to do it. But let's talk about Jeremy and IO and Evan.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yeah, they're hot.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I remember watching Shameless, the Showtime version, not the original British version. And even in the first episode, he plays the younger brother of Emmy Rossum's character. And I remember watching him and I think in the first episode of the second episode, he's doing like shirtless bare knuckle boxing to make money, which is very Jeremy Allen White thing to do. And I'm watching and I'm like, who the hell is this guy? He was really interesting to me then. And as that show started to really lose my attention, I kept watching it, I think at least another year Just for him and for Emmy. And so I was not surprised that eventually when he was in this higher profile thing, that everyone was surprised at. A high profile. He's become big. What do you think it is, though, about him that has struck such a chord with people?

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

I mean, sometimes you just are. Have an incredibly beautiful face and curly hair. I mean, there is. There. I'm not saying that he is not a talented performer. He is an incredibly talented performer and that is key to why this show works. If he is not as good as he is in this role, Bear is not happening. But you, you cannot discount just the genetic lottery element of why this show is pleasant to look at. And I'm also happy to shout out his forearms here. I. I think one of the things that this last season is particularly good at is sprinkling in these moments of audience awareness without going too far into feeling like it's preening or smug or like angry at the audience. It has a couple different things that are very smart little audience consciousness moments. And one of them is Ibram, who is an early Bear employee who then becomes in charge of the Beef, which is their, like, sandwich wind. Ibram is really wanting to convince Jeremy Allen White Carmi to make the Beef into a franchise. And every single time he is trying to talk himself up for it over the course of the last season, he's like, do not be fooled by his brilliant. His incredibly brilliant blue eyes. His brilliant blue eyes do not need to dazzle you. And. And so it is a role that I think very smartly gives somebody who has those physical attributes and then says he is also really serious and, and careful and sad and smart and careful and sad especially are, are ways that we as a kind of culture understand how to call something not dumb. And, and so there's like, it just this built up the Jeremy Allen White Persona in a really powerful way.

[Alan Sepinwall]

One of the interesting choices that the show makes is we've had. We've just been inundated over the last 25 years with TV shows about the brilliant but abusive genius. You know, it's just there's so many difficult men out there and Carmi is not a great boss. And that's sort of one of the running themes of the show. And you see by the end of this season, Sid is a much better boss than he is, but he's not abusive. It's more. I mean, he will occasionally be a dick. He yells at Marcus at the end of the online order episode in season one. But mostly it's just he is so Hard on himself and so hard to read and mercurial. It's just. It's a very different way. And it makes him. It makes it easier, I think, to deal with this idea that you're in the world's most stressful kitchen episode after episode, season after season. And he's very good at that vulnerability. He's got these eyes that say a lot. Carmi is not really a talker. You know, when he goes to Al Anon or something, it's almost surprising when you get this big monologue out of him. There's a very big monologue in the finale, which we will get to.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

We'll get to.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Is that monologue still going on as we're recording this?

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yes, he is still delivering it live. It is an art piece, I believe it's in. He is sitting in MoMA on a stool right now doing it.

[Alan Sepinwall]

But yes, there is just. There's something extremely soulful about him that makes, like. Makes you want to keep watching him even when he's flailing around and even when things are becoming as disastrous as they often are in that kitchen.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

And then Eben and IO, I think both of them are. IO is. Is a slightly different case because she. Her job is to come into the world of the show as a new person. In some ways, she is your audience surrogate character from the first season on, and she gets the kind of training montage arc that lets us really root for her. And I think that role is a little bit easier to just find. Not necessarily relatable, but a character that you want to support from the beginning. She doesn't have to deal with the prickly, like, I am failing at this thing. She is right almost all of the time. And IO is still so great at making Sidney, turning that fairly rote arc into something that has a lot of dimension that is so funny. There are a couple of scenes in this last season where you're like, oh, right, she's a comic actress and she. She has all of this personality that she can hold back. And then all of a sudden in a scene, you sort of pull back the COVID and she's like, yelling at the facts about something, and you're like, oh, yes, this is also who this person has always been. It's part of why that episode Worms is so beautiful because you have this whole other side of her and there seems. And her face is interesting in all three of these cases. I mean, Jeremy Allen White is perhaps one of the most classically beautiful, but, like, he. His eyes are too far apart and his face is the. The proportions of it are weird. Eben. Nobody's gonna look at Eben Moss back rack and be like, that is a conventional hot movie star. Like, that is it. That is an action star with a straightforwardly. Like. His chin is a little receding. His eyes are very hang dog. IO is gorgeous. But her teeth have these, like, little imperfections in them and her smiles, like, all. There is something about this show that understands, for all of its obsession with food, perfection understands that we actually just want to look at people's faces like normal people's faces.

[Alan Sepinwall]

There's a bit in terms of IO being funny in one of the episodes where she realizes that Richie is flirting with Jess, you know, one of the other front of house people, and she is so delighted in giving him shit about it. And I'm watching that scene like, oh, right, this is a comedy. At least it says it is.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Mm, mm. That's a fun little thing. And Eben, I mean, we talked about forks, that his ability to take Richie from absolute obnoxious side character into guy who almost swings too far in the direction of self seriousness and then is trying to pull himself back and learn how to be vulnerable to all of his own emotions. He has this. He's anxious for the entire last season, and he has this, like, routine that he's trying to do where he's, like, touching all the things around him and being like, computer, coffee cup, microphone, and it's so funny. And it's also. So you're just like, oh, Richie, it's gonna be okay, man. You just gotta keep going.

[Alan Sepinwall]

He has, in some ways become the main character of the show. Weirdly. Like, I mean, we'll get spoilers later, but the last scene of the show is Richie. It is not Carmi. It is not Sid. Like, that's. And that's a deliberate choice. You want to end because he has been. They've all been on a journey, but he has been on the biggest journey it feels of the three of them.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

I agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yes.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Comedy is the. Is the bear comedy. I'm putting you on the spot. You have to say yes or no. You cannot. There's no room for nuance here.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

No, it's not a comedy.

[Alan Sepinwall]

No, not a comedy. I agree.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

The argument that I found most persuasive about it being a comedy came from my colleague, Jesse David Fox, who accidentally watched the screeners of the first season backwards, because FX puts their episodes up so that when you open the website, you see the last episode first. And he watched that one first and then was like, well, this is an odd storytelling choice. And that last episode of the first season frames all of them sitting down for family dinner and having. And, like, having made it out the other side. And that, like, his entire experience of that first season started from there. And I can see where, if that is your entry point, you experience this entire thing in the way that you might experience Widow's Bay, which is like, sure, there's stressful things happening, but these are all of our friends and they're hanging out. I think if you watch the show as written, however, it is pretty clear that the question. It's not, these are all of our friends and they're hanging out. It's like, are these all our friends? Can they all hang out? And that's not a comedy.

[Alan Sepinwall]

No, it's all right. So the show begins in a place of grief. Mikey has died, played by John Bernthal, who we see occasionally and we saw in Gary, which we talked about in our teaser episode, and we'll talk about again here as it relates to this season. So everyone's grieving Mikey except Sid, who didn't know him and is new to this. Sid suffers from, at times, almost crippling anxiety. Carmi and Natalie's mom, Dee Dee, played by Jamie Lee Curtis, is mentally ill in some way. The show never diagnoses it. Carmi, also deeply anxious, has some traits of both his mom and his older brother. So there's a lot of, like, darkness baked into this. There's a lot of stress, and there is humor, and there are the facts, and we'll talk about the facts and whether the show ever gets them dialed in exactly right. But, I mean, it's a drama about these people sort of coming together, and there are hangout elements, but it's mostly. It's traumatic. And there's maybe more comedy this season than in any other. I don't know. Especially the early episodes are somewhat farcical in the sense that everything that can go wrong does go wrong in the restaurant. But it, to me, it really. It feels like a Sopranos kind of thing, where it's a serious show that is also capable of being incredibly funny when it wants to, but it's a drama.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

And even as all of those things are going incredibly wrong, I. There is a tone thing we. A comedy of errors is like, everything is going wrong and you're laughing. I was not laughing. I was very stressed. About the plumbing.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes. You know, the plumbing. Plumbing, bad. Plumbing, bad.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Plumbing bad. Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. Yes. Okay. So do we want to move into, like, what this. How we feel about this last season.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, I think we need to talk about it now. So if, again, if you haven't watched Summer, all of it, there's going to be spoilers. We'll have a time code. Tatiana. But we have to start, obviously with Tom Skilling. Beloved Chicago meteorological feature.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yes, Yes.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I have friends in Chicago. I mentioned to one of them that Skilling is in the show and they just texted back, oh, my God.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point. And for people who don't, like. I don't have. I don't know anything about Tom Skilling. I do not recognize his face. I think this, the reason that I like Tom Skilling so much in this is that the way Eben responds to him, Richie recognizes him when he comes into the restaurant. You immediately are like, oh, he is an important local celebrity. Like, Richie is very excited about this. He's just a normal kind of a guy. He comes in, he's playing himself and he, like everyone is excited about the local weatherman is a very different zone than Brie Larson plays the sister. And for me, the scale of this show makes so much more sense and is so much more pleasurable when it's. Everybody's excited about the weatherman versus Brie Larson is somehow Matty Matheson's like, relation. Do you know what I mean?

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I don't know how any of them are related to each other. Is Elsie Fisher the computer's niece?

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

I think she is. She is there. She is definitely Cheese. Her name is Cheese or cheddar or something. Yes.

[Alan Sepinwall]

No, she's Cheese. And it's interesting that, like the two bits of stunt casting in this season, other than the finale, which brings back almost everybody, you know who'd been in previous seasons is Elsie Fisher and Tom Skelling.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

And then, you know, Chris Storer is a Bo Burnham guy. Bo Burnham directed Elsie in eighth grade. So I did wonder if there was a kind of inside connection there. She's. She's fun as cheese. She's doing the very computer direct, angry thing, which is always fun coming from a younger female character as opposed to a gristled, angry male character who is the show.

[Alan Sepinwall]

The co creator of Billions.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yes, that is also true. And yeah, I just, I. If you're going to make an argument for this show as a comedy, Tom Skilling is where the rubber meets the road. I think, you know, because the stakes are dialed in correctly. The stakes are this is a beloved but Local figure rather than. This is an Oscar nominated. I don't actually know what Brie Larson's Oscar. Has she won Oscars? Probably.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I think she won for Room or whatever.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yes. And she's showing up, and you're just gonna see her and be like, oh, my God, that's who that is.

[Alan Sepinwall]

But the interesting thing about the stakes about Tom Skilling is it's not so much that they want to impress him, although obviously they do. It's that they think he is dining with the guy who decides about the Michelin star.

[Acast Advertiser]

Yes.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And that's among the big sources of tension of the season. And yet, I don't remember if it's in season three or season four, but there's an episode where very obviously the Michelin star guy is at the restaurant watching Richie set up the fake snowfall on the patio next to the restaurant and is super impressed. Yes. Did you even remember that watching this

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

season, as soon as they said the fake snow, I was like, oh, right.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah. But that's in the finale. So. But for me, I'm like. I'm watching this whole thing saying, that's not. They keep calling him Starman, and I'm like, that's not Starman. We've seen Starman. So this is all like, they think that this is what this is, but we know differently. And does that make sense? And I.

[Tatiana Maslany]

It was.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

It was just odd, I think, because they had never confirmed previous Starman was actually Starman. Like, it's very. It is very clear that they're pointing to it in the episode. But without. But without any actual proof that that's what's going on, I think you're. They're trying to leave space for you to be like, maybe it wasn't. Maybe I was wrong.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Fair enough. So what we get in the season is the first three, four episodes are unbelievably stressful. It's like they took the online ordering episode and said, what if we made that four episodes?

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

It's really tough.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah. There were definitely times where I'm like, I had that same feeling I had when I started watching the show of, do I want to continue with this? And obviously I was going to, because the bear is now the bear, and it's the job, and you do it. And then you get to, I think, around the end of episode four, and you can sense the turn is coming, and they're gonna do it, and they bust out the original Birth of Chicago T shirts that everyone's gonna wear, and you're like, okay, great. And then the next few episodes are some serious MacGyver shit where they're just figuring out ways to work around all of the problems that they're having.

[Podcast Ad Host]

Yes.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

They're perpetually making the portions smaller and smaller to the point where I'm like, is there any food gonna be on these plates?

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, they're losing dishes. Gary, the sommelier, like, has to guess which wine is in which bottle because the flooding, like, wiped off all the labels. All of these different things are happening. And it's like, this is, you know, this. The action is the juice here. This is what I'm really into now is seeing them all come here. And you don't. You can't really get that feeling if you don't have at least a couple of episodes of Murphy's Law over and over again. I mean, I don't know that we needed four, do you?

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

No, but thank God they are. They are all kind of in the 22 to 25 minute, 28 minute rang. So the brevity really does save you. I have long felt, particularly in seasons two, two, three, and four, that this should be a weekly show and not a binge drop. But this season is the best argument for a binge drop of the bear.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, I wouldn't want to watch some of these episodes in isolation. That would be very deeply unsatisfying.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

It is very clearly edging you to get to episode seven. And once you get there, you. The payoff is. Is quite clear. And. And there is people. I assume you guys are all listening to this on Monday. I am guessing many of you sat down with the beginning of what this was, Friday or Saturday night, and then just knocked the whole thing out over the weekend. It's built for that. I think, in a way that season two was not really.

[Alan Sepinwall]

No, I mean, I. You know, just from a selfish standpoint, as someone who would have loved to write about individual episodes of. I really wish the earlier seasons had been weekly. This is not that again. It's either no special episodes or it's all one special episode. And so it's all of a piece. It is a little too long, but I think ultimately the payoffs for it are very, very effective. And the fifth, sixth, and especially the seventh episode were super satisfying.

[Acast Advertiser]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tatiana Maslany]

Yes.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yes. They blessedly figured out how to do the facts again without making them so annoying. John CEN is not in evidence.

[Alan Sepinwall]

No. No John Cena. No Brie Larson.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

No Brie Larson. And they are doing the kinds of things that you sort of assumed they had been here to do all along the plumbing issues are clearly a problem for them. Somebody falls through the ceiling. You know, these are. These are fact shenanigans that. That we have always like. This has been their role. And it does feel like it finally understands how to dial them back into that.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, if they're a garnish, they're great. If, you know, if they're even a side dish, probably not. Although there is that one great scene with Neil Fack where he winds up dealing with Skilling and the guy they think is Starman. And they build running gag. He doesn't know what to do with his hands and it's a disaster. And then fake Starman, I think, asks about the tattoos and suddenly he lightens up and they love him. And that's wonderful. Matty Matheson is really good in that scene. And there's a bit earlier, an episode or two earlier where Richie just goes, facts assemble. And I laughed so hard because again, they had dialed them back enough that I could find them amusing again. And that was delightful.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

They also come back to the thing that they always were at the beginning, which is the financial strain of this restaurant means that the random guys that you've got kicking around are your best bets for dealing with your plumbing crisis. And they're not that great. And so they are tied back into the constraints of the show rather than trying to be this whole ornamental external thing.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, I agree with that. I mentioned Gary before. So this is the. The standalone episode that is technically, at least for Emmy purposes, considered part of season four. It's this flashback written by Eben and John Bernthal, set before the events of the series, where Richie and Mikey go on a road trip to Gary on behalf of Uncle Jimmy for purposes unknown. And Mikey kind of spirals and you see the really ugly and dark side of this character who everyone speaks of so reverently. Episode ends in present day, where you realize the whole thing has been. Richie has been remembering this moment while sitting in traffic in a torrential downpour, and he gets T boned. And as we talked about in our teaser, I remember watching this and thinking, this is stupid. Like, some people are not going to see this. Richie getting into a terrible car accident is going to be a big deal and they're going to be confused. And instead, one, they re show the car accident within the context of the series. And two, it's not a big deal. His car gets wrecked, Richie is fine. He comes to work. It's just yet another shitty thing that has happened in the early part of the season. So how did you feel about how they wound up tying it together? I mean, there's more Gary stuff later on.

[Acast Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

It really feels to me like Gary did not need to exist. You could do the car accident. I did not need to know the story of, of the car accident. This is once again one of those situations where the bear feels like it is being canny and a little oblique as it is telling me about all of its many themes. And instead I feel like I'm being walloped over the head with the 2x4 by like, Mikey had this like, Ebbins never, which he's never left Chicago. Like, this is bang, bang, bang. Like I all. I got it. I don't think there is anything that happens in Gary that you could not have sewed together and frankly is sewn in better into the fifth season.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, I mean, there's a great scene where Richie tells Carmi very obliquely about what happened in Gary. And it's mainly just, Mikey was an ass. I remember this time Mikey was an asshole and I shoved him or whatever. And Carmi just looks at him and says, I'm sure he deserved it. And you basically need those two sentences. And that says everything about Richie's relationship with Mikey and Carmi's relationship with Mikey and how much more complicated it was than maybe they would have suggested earlier. Yeah, I mean, again, there is padding even here. And that extends to Gary. But also, I just remember watching it and I said to her friend Linda Holmes, when I got to like, Richie shows up at the restaurant and he's fine. I wrote to her and says, oh, so the car crash was just schmuck fate. And, you know, which is like TV writers room term for, oh, we're going to do this cliffhanger where someone seems like they're about to die or about to be an incredible danger, and then you come back in the next episode and they're totally fine. I mean, did you feel like it was that or did you. Were you okay with the fact?

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

No, I was honestly relieved. I didn't actually want to have to deal with this car accident. I was concerned about a situation where like, Richie is not in the final season very much because of scheduling or something. If you, if for some reason you had to make Gary, I'm. I would prefer you make Gary and then make it mostly irrelevant. Then that either becomes a load bearing part of this show or that, like the car accident, you know, has meaning for some reason.

[Acast Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

So you mentioned earlier, IBRA is trying to turn the beef, the sandwich part into A franchise with the advice of Albert, played by the late, great Rob Reiner.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

And.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay, okay. So I'm watching the season, and I had just seen episodes of the new Larry David HBO show in which Rob Reiner does appear. It's one of the last acting jobs he had. And there's a Rob Reiner tribute card. So now I'm watching the screeners for the Bear, and Ebra keeps calling Albert on the phone, and I'm thinking, did Rob film something here? Are we going to see Rob? How am I going to deal with that? And he does not appear. And in the very last episode, Eber is on the phone with him again, and he's telling Albert something. And Albert says something back. And Ebert just goes, as you wish. I'm getting choked up now.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

I know.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And it feels like. It feels so unfair, like it should be so cheesy and such cheap manipulation. And it's great.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

It's so good. It's because they shoot it. There's no. Oh, this is another thing about this season. No needle drops. This whole season is just score. And that exact scene, that exact Hans

[Alan Sepinwall]

Zimmer score, no less.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yes. That exact context. All. All of it. If you had shot it differently, if the sun had been setting behind him, if there had been, like, a big music cue, it would have felt egregious and exploitative. And instead, it's just so brief and. And so it's lovely. The line. The line reading is quite restrained. It's exactly what you want.

[Alan Sepinwall]

So that's all part of the subplot. And a lot of the subplot is Jimmy, computer and cheese going around Chicago trying to find out if they can purchase the air rights to the building. So they can then sell that and someone will build a skyscraper on top of the bear. Or like in. In lieu of the bear, something along those lines. And it goes nowhere. And they even go to meet with, like, a family friend or neighbor or relative to. Because again, who the fuck knows how these people are actually biologically related? Who owns the air rights somehow? And everyone who goes in there is worried that someone named Raymond is there and they're getting very upset about it. And Raymond never actually appears. And I feel like Anton Chekhov once said, if you mention Raymond in your third episode, Raymond has to appear by the fifth, and Raymond does not appear. So, A, how did you feel about the subplot overall? And B, how did you feel about the Raymond of it all?

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

I'm fine with all of these things. I think I was probably more afraid that Raymond was gonna show up and he was gonna be like Harrison Ford or something.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, I assumed it would be stunt cast character.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yes. And so it was a relief to not see that on paper. I think the entire plot, the whole air rights thing, is busy work that does not need to be here. Except that I think air rights are funny. And I like watching these people all TR around in the rain under an umbrella, yelling at things and I like watching them have to go to some kind of Chicago municipal office to. To interact with the most non responsive public employee to try to get the information about who I like. It should not work. Except that I think that the execution makes me enjoy spending time with this busy work.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes, it's funny. Oliver Platt, who plays Jimmy, is a very funny actor who has not had a ton of opportunity to do that because he's not the villain of the show, but he's sort of. He's the bank. And so he represents sort of the ongoing tension of will this restaurant be able to survive or not. And here he's flailing because you find out he's lost three quarters of his fortune, do some bad trades.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

He can be part of the cast because he has no money now, like he can be engaged with the rest of the show because he is finally brought down to the same level as everyone else.

[Alan Sepinwall]

So that is a lot of fun. So we get through these seven episodes all on the same day, all with the same service. Then the finale, it picks up the very next day. So it's like three very tumultuous consecutive days in the life of the bear. And then we start jumping forward in time and we get some things, including Carmi's other career. And they set this up a little bit in season three or season four when he goes to look at the Frank Lloyd Wright house and he's really enraptured. And at the time that seemed like another one of those very self indulgent bear moments of let's just have Jeremy walk around the Chicago Treasure and look thoughtful and look soulful and maybe this will give him inspiration. But either way, won't it just be interesting to look at him in that place? And then that leads to, oh, Carmi wants to be an architect and he gets an interview. Cousin Stevie, played by John Mulaney, gets him an interview at a local architectural firm. Seems like a very prestigious place. He interviews with Bonnie Hunt, Chicago treasure. Bonnie Hunt. Love to see Bonnie Hunt, you know, as the head. And he gives the world's longest a. He has no architectural training, no experience. I Don't know that he ever went to college. I think he went to culinary school, but he has not studied architecture at all. He's a talented artist and he's no qualifications. And he comes in and he gives. Basically he has a therapy session with her.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Well, the scene is designed to make you. Because it is not clear why he is there until the very end of the scene. Yes, yes. And so you spend the whole scene being like. Like, is this, Is this therapy? Is he. Is this. I. I of course was like, is this a publisher? Is he writing a book?

[Alan Sepinwall]

Like, yeah, I thought it might be a Bourdain thing.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

And then at the very end, he gives. She's like, so why are you here? And he does the whole car me thing. And it's like, you know, I inherited this restaurant and it's really stressful and I'm a bad boss. And you're like, okay. And then at the very end she's like, I meant like, why are you here for an architecture internship? And he's like, oh, yeah, sure. And I truly was like, what the fuck is. I was. This is the most mad that I am about this season there.

[Alan Sepinwall]

One time, many years ago, I was interviewing for an internship at a website that I will not name when I was in college. And I went and I thought the interview was going really, really well. And then the woman interviewing me asked if there were any changes I might make to the website. And listener, I had never looked at the website.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Oh, no.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And she could tell. And that was bad. And I'm like, and she could tell. And the interview basically was done there. And we talked for another five incredibly awkward minutes. Yeah, that Carmi monologue, leave aside his lack of any experience. Yeah, that should be disqualifying then and there.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yes, yes, it should. Now, Stevie did give him bad advice as they're walking into the building. Stevie's like, lead with trauma. Which I don't know if Stevie's like pranking him or whatever, but he does. But my. My bigger issue with it is, like, not even the monologue itself, although I did find it to be the worst of the bears self indulgent tendencies. My thing is that Carmi even wanting to do architecture and then the show suggesting that this is both a good and plausible next step for him is the kind of thing that I found most frustrating about seasons three and four, because there is this way where you can totally understand why architecture would make sense as a thing that Carmi cares about. It's like a functional way that we live in the world that people tend to overlook, that you take totally for granted is utilitarian. Is just the, a reality of, of the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. You need food and you need shelter, but it can also be this incredible artistic outlet. It elevates our experience of the everyday. It is this, you know, creativity and shaping the world around us and blah, blah, all that's how Karami feels about food. So they're exactly the same. And so the bear is like, look, they're exactly the same. And I am like, like, Carmi doesn't know how to do AutoCAD. Carmi doesn't want to sit doing 3D modeling software in front of a computer for the whole day. Architecture jobs are largely to do with interacting with the public. Is that Carmi's strong suit not to mind? Like. And so it is. It is a missing the forest for the trees situation, which is the thing that I have been most frustrated by this show from the beginning. And it was just, just. I guess, I guess if it had pulled off the whole season without doing this, I would have been a little bit disoriented. And instead. And I was kind of like, oh, no, no, this is still the show. Show is still the show. But I.

[Tatiana Maslany]

But it's.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

It's dumb. It's dumb.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Our friend Dan Feinberg was watching these screeners after I'd seen them, and he got to the end of the seventh episode, which was the last one we got to see in advance of the season, and he wrote to me, I wonder what the series finale of the Bear is going to be? Since I just watched the series finale of the Bear.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yes. Dave, my husband and I also were talking about it and we were like, what do they even have left to wrap up? I thought of one thing that they had not wrapped up. Oh, two things. Whether or not they got Michelin stars, which I did not actually care about. The only open question was who was taking all the spoons. And that they did then figure out in the finale, which is a funny scene. Yes, only thing. Things.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, there are very good things in the finale, especially, I think some of the Richie stuff is good. And the moment where Carmi tells Sid that they got two stars and she's kind of dazed and then she goes out and hugs them. That's a very nice payoff to their entire relationship. Yes, that's good.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Didn't need it.

[Tatiana Maslany]

But it's.

[Alan Sepinwall]

No, you don't really need any of this. Like, it's one of those things where it's like, I can't really complain about most of it other than the Bonnie Hunt scene, through no fault of Bonnie Hunt, but that the finale doesn't need to exist. The episode seven is the end of the show.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

100%. Okay. For all of my complaints about Carmi as a future architect, what this show also gives us in the final season is a beautiful, beautiful gift to me. A person who wants to have a screenshot of somebody saying. Of an annoyed woman holding a wine glass and saying, Jesus Christ, Alan. Which it gave me. And I was so, so happy to receive this gift.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I believe his name is spelled Alan with two Ls so you can try it on me, but it's not referring to me because I'm Alan with the good spelling.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

That is a very quick fix in any photo editing software of my choice.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I really, I really like that character Alan Mitchell. There's, you know, they're desperate to turn over the tables and some people just won't leave. And so I think Richie gets the idea. Let's bring some of them back here and give them a tour of the kitchen and then we can turn over the table while they're gone. And like this one couple where the husband Alan Mitchell is a super foodie, will not leave and is just commenting on everything. Like it's just sort of the parody of the most pretentious possible person who

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

lives on the bear. It's like that movie, the menu.

[Alan Sepinwall]

You. Yes. You know, he see, he sees the green tape and he's like, you know, oh, Thomas Keller.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Now did my husband order green tape after this? Yeah, that's, that's, this is, I mean,

[Alan Sepinwall]

you guys have like a bear style kitchen. It's so organized and I both love and hate it every time I see it.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Because yes, my husband, my husband is the guy who will be like, oh, I'm gonna, it's gonna be a fun joke, but also I, I'm gonna have it and use it. And all of our perfectly labeled, like Bolognese that he made have green labels now. So.

[Alan Sepinwall]

But it does feel, mostly until you get to the finale, like the show is more self aware this season. There's the funny joke, I think also involving the Mitchells where somebody asks, like, are Carmi and Sid dating? And Pete, Natalie's husband, goes, no, but there are theories.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yes. That's not the Mitchells. That is Jamie Lee Curtis, who only shows up in exactly the amount of Jamie Lee Curtis that this show should ever. I said it. I'm not a fan of the yes should ever have had. She is there Sort of resolving a lot of the tension, the maternal tension. And she finally comes to the Bear and. And is just hanging out in the background and is so proud of everything that she's seeing. And she's flipping through all of Carmi's notebooks and she sees the photo of Carmi and Sid and that is why Pete is like. But there are theories, which I just like the Jesus Christ, Alan. Obnoxious couple. Well, just the husband. I think the wife is great and I think she's a legend. It is the show's way of being like, look at all these different ways of interacting with what this is. We are gonna both represent it and say, I see you. And we are gonna lightly tease it, but not in a way that I think is cruel or gets to that place where the show is fully frustrated with its audience. I think it's a beautiful level of that kind of thing for a final season. Really well done.

[Alan Sepinwall]

But this brings me back to something we talked about in our first Patreon episode about Mad Men, when the fact that Mad Men never had Don and Peggy hook up and how that was ultimately the right decision for that show. Was there ever a moment watching the Bear where you felt, oh, clearly, either they should be a couple or they will be a couple?

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

No, I never ever thought that about this show. I know other people did. I've seen the fan edits. I have never felt like that is where this show was heading.

[Alan Sepinwall]

No, I really like them as sort of creative partners, mentor, protege at first. But eventually she surpasses him. Like he says in the final season, her Coke ribs are better than anything he's ever made. And obviously she's a better boss than him. I like TV romance when it feels earned and authentic, but I guess I gravitate much more towards these platonic, you know, especially professional relationships. And I really just like the idea of them as spiritual, you know, kin. And they are quote, unquote, cousins, too.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yes. If you want romance, it should be a romance. This is at most of beautiful work, friendship, like, you know, that is allowed to be depicted on TV and the season.

[Alan Sepinwall]

It gives you romance. Richie very briefly touches Jess's hand and then they fly to Japan together.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Sexy stuff. Sexy stuff. Claire shows up in the birthday party scene.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Claire, such a forgettable. That's another thing that I liked much more about this season than the previous ones. The previous two. So much time and emotional energy was invested in the idea of Claire as this perfect, aspirational woman. And with all due respect to Molly Gordon, who I think is good in the role. Claire is nothing.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

There is no. There's no Claire there. And so we didn't get that. We do, however, get to see Natalie and Pete have sex under the tent in the back alley.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Good for them. It's hard to keep things going when you have a new baby. And I'm happy for them.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes, exactly. Yeah. So Claire comes back in the final scene. Bob Odenkirk comes back. I'm trying to remember. I feel like they brought back almost everybody but Sarah Paulson and Brie Larson. Yes. But Gillian Jacobs is there. Josh Hartnett's there.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

You're like, josh Hartnett, what are you doing here, buddy? And he's like, I'm so happy to be here.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah. And it's clearly they both like being on the show and also, I think, recognize that this show is a big deal and it's probably good for their profiles if they come back briefly at the end. And somewhat like, Bob is a Chicago guy, so I'm sure he's. He's got no complaint about having to go back there to film this. It's just interesting, though, to have, like, all of these heavy hitters here just for a birthday party scene where they don't say anything.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

On the other hand, I mean, I. I also was like, all right, all right, all right. We're doing that Bears scene again. But I like this version much better than the under the table party in the. In the previous season.

[Alan Sepinwall]

The biggest table anyone has ever built, and it changes sizes over the course of the episode.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yes, it's Clifford the Big Red table.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah. Richie climbs under it initially, and it's so small his legs are sticking out. And by the end of it, there's like 20 people under this table.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yes, it's Bluey's cubby episode.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Catherine, what do you know about Bluey?

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

I know very, very little. It's a brand new piece of information to me, and I unfortunately have now had to write a book about the whole thing. And so you get to discover whether I know anything at all about Bluey and Bandit, which I know may be a source of concern to some of you. It's going to be fine. It's going to be fine, guys.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I probably. And I don't know why. I don't know why you would ever choose to slander him.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

I do not slit. Okay, we're going to. Well, we got to do later.

[Alan Sepinwall]

We got tons of time for that. Tons of time.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

We'll get to this later.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Is there anything else we want to hit? Like, there there's the running threat in the season of. Marcus is really stressed that his dad, played by Harry Lennox, is coming for service. And he and Luca, played by the beautiful one Will Poulter, start getting into it.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yeah, this show really likes its beautiful men to have their eyes too far apart, but that's fine. The. I. I think this is a good last arc for Markus. I think he has been quite cuddly from the beginning of this show, and it's good for them to give that character more dimension and be like, no. Marcus could also be, like, uptight and overwhelmed by the artistry elements of this job. And they sew it all nicely together again by the end. I. I do think it's possibly a little bit too little, too late as far as the dad. I did spend a lot of time being like, I don't know why I care. I can see why he cares about this. Yes, I am not bought in on the. In the way that he is. But I. But all of the market and Luca stuff, I was for sure on board with, and so I was able to kind of substitute those, pull those things together, and it mostly hangs together, I think.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And there's that great punchline where Luca says to him, like, oh, he found out about the spoons.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yeah, yeah, it's great. It's great.

[Alan Sepinwall]

So the bear.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

The bear.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Good show. I wonder, like, because there, you know, it won. It dominated the Emmys its first season, I think. And I can't remember there was a point at which we assumed that the second season was going to win everything, too, but it came out while the third season was airing, and nobody liked the third season, and so it lost the comedy Emmy to hacks. Is that right?

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Something like that? I don't know.

[Alan Sepinwall]

So the Emmys kind of turned on the show, and I wonder if we're now at the end of this, especially since there's just less TV being out there. But you also have hacks ending. Whether there's now going to be. I guess they'll be in different Emmy seasons. It's all confusing because, again, the show debuts after the deadline. Ignore everything I'm saying. I just wonder if, like, there's going to be a reconsideration at the end, and it might be one of those things where, you know, goodbye, thanks for everything. Here's some trophies on your way out the door.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

I think it should. I think that would be a great. A great future for this show. I think it deserves to have a little bit of that. Come back to it. I still am frustrated by the comedy drama element of that.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes. And people talk all the time. It's like, well, you could make a dramedy category, but basically every show would be eligible for that.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And you could do a half hour category, but again, you have the bear competing with, you know, Abbott elementary, and that's. That's no good. So I don't know what the solution is in. In researching my Rod Serling biography. Available for pre order now. He was the president of the television Academy for two years in the mid-60s, and he tried overhauling the Emmys and getting rid of the competitive element altogether. And so there was a year where they just like, here are outstanding shows. And there was no the winner is. The loser is. They just kept giving out trophies. And everyone got mad at that too. So I don't know if there is a solution to this problem.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Probably not. Probably not. Although I kind of think we're closer to the Rod Serling version being a reasonable option now than we were at the time. So we'll see. You know, it's possible.

[Podcast Ad Host]

Do you keep hearing podcast ads like this one, for example, but always wonder how you actually get involved with them for your own brand or organization? Well, it's easier than you think. We're acast and we give you the platform to do it all yourself. Browse thousands of popular podcasts, choose the shows that match your perfect audience, set your budget, and launch. And if you want a hand, and our podcast specialists are there to help you launch with confidence. This is podcast advertising without barriers. Get [e-mail] advertise.

[Alan Sepinwall]

When you and I started planning out doing this podcast, the thing we talked about was, we'll start out, it'll just be the two of us because, you know, we're friends and neighbors and the whole deal, like we talk about at the top of everything. But eventually we wanted to allow room to have guest stars because not even necessarily to promote projects, but just to have people on and because we think

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Jamie Lee Curtis should come and talk to us.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, yeah, just come on. Because everybody loves tv and it's. What is the thing about TV you love? And we could have actors, showrunners, directors, fellow critics, friends, you know, one of our spouses could come on, whatever. However, we have options, and we figured we would do this down the line. However, I was at the ATX festival last month, and someone at Apple reached out and says, hey, do you want to interview Tatiana Maslany? Because she's going to be here for maximum pleasure, guaranteed. And I said, sure. And as I was preparing to do it. I realized, hey, this might be a good soft launch for the guest star segment. I won't have a camera with me, and I won't even have a good microphone with me. But what if I, you know, take out my phone and record a voice memo where Tatiana talks about a TV show that she loves? And so they agreed, and we did that, and I asked her, and she thought about it. And as you'll hear in a little bit, the show she wound up ultimately talking about was Cheers. And you and I had already decided, let's put the Tatiana segment after the bear segment, both because it's short and we'll be talking about the bear a lot, but also, hey, it's two, like, food service industry shows. Yes, yes, this all made sense. And then after we recorded last week's episode, James Burroughs, co creator of Cheers, the greatest director in the history of sitcoms, like the absolute legend Cheers, Frasier, the Friends pilot, Will and Grace, Taxi, Mary Tyler Moore, he directed so many things, won so many Emmys, was a giant. Burroughs passed away. And so inadvertently, the universe has come together to give us an excuse to talk a little bit about Cheers and about Burrows before we get to Tatiana's take. So what are your. What are your Burrows thoughts?

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

He is so embedded in the nature of what a modern sitcom is that it is difficult to know what this form actually is without him. Like, if he is not making sitcoms. Sitcoms are not sitcoms as we know them. There are a lot of common qualities between, I mean, like the. The sort of Lucy era of the sitcom. You can go back and you can watch. Like, obviously this is a genre that has been growing and changing from its first iteration from the radio in the 1940s. But James Burroughs is really the person who shapes our contemporary understanding of how timing works, how people enter, how to do pilots, where you are introducing all of these charact and setting up the emotional stakes of these things without it feeling like, I mean, other than Norman Lear, it is hard to think of a more. And. And Norman Lear is a very special case. And arguably, some of those Norman Lear sitcoms only work in a kind of Norman Lear universe. Whereas James Burroughs, the universe is not a particular political point of view or a vision of America. They're a vision of people and, like, how people interact with each other and how you become friends with someone on television. He was the master of it.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And there were obviously great sitcoms and great sitcom directors before him. James L. Brooks was one of the people who brought him in to direct episodes of the Mary Tyler Moore Show. Obviously, you cannot ignore the totemic seismic impact of I Love lucy in the 50s and the role it's played in shaping everything. But one of the things that Burrows did was he had come from the stage. His dad, Abe Burrows, wrote the book for Both Guys and Dolls and how to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying. So he knew the theater, he directed the theater. We actually talked to him for the Serling book because he directed a play Rod wrote, and then he goes into tv, and multicam sitcoms are basically a filmed play. And so a lot of TV before that is just, you know, here's the static camera, and we will have a couple of others rolling so we can get reaction shots and know establishing shot, medium coverage and all of that. But they were still relatively static. And starting with Cheers, which was the show that he created with Glenn and Les Charles, where they decided, let's go off on our own, even though we've been having fun on Taxi, they build this whole set of a bar, and the whole first season, I do not believe leaves the bar even once. And it could feel really stifling and really stage bound. And the way that Burrows shoots it, it is so fluid. It feels alive. It never feels like you're trapped there. It feels exciting to be there. You're shaking up all the time. When you go back and you watch those episodes, which are 44 years old now, they still play. They still play beautifully.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yeah. Like gangbusters. And, you know, there was a remembrance thread that I think Bebe Neuwirth was writing, and she was talking about how good he was at understanding how to make those sets feel alive, not just for the actors who are there on the set, but how to make it so that the thing that you're recording in front of the live studio audience plays as well as it can. And one of the things that he would do is, first of all, he would wander around behind the sets.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

So that it was like he was hearing all of it together, like the kind of laughter filtered through the. The voice of the actors. But the other thing he would do was if something was going wrong in the taping, but there was this big laugh line that was coming up. He would go. He would go, bup, bup, bup. And he would cut off the. The scene and then make them start it over again so that you did not ruin that initial audience reaction to that good laugh line later. Like, that's just those kinds of instincts are. Once you have them, they are diamond cut. Irreplaceable, perfect. And without them, like, anything is gonna fall so much more flat than you can pull. He could just pull these kinds of magic things out of scripts that sometimes were not all that exciting, you know?

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah. I mean, he directed a lot of garbage. You know, once he did Friends, and that was not a show he was intimately involved with. He was a hired gun brought in to direct the pilot. And Friends became friends. Suddenly the entire business was like, you have to get James Burroughs to direct your pilot. And some of those are really good, and some of those are garbage. And he couldn't make bad things good, much less great. But he could take very good things and make them great. And he could take great things and make them extraordinary, both with his sense of timing, with his work with actors, and just he would come up with little bits of business. David Crane from Friends talks all the time. The very last scene of Friends, the pilot. Ross and Rachel are alone in the apartment living room, and they've split an Oreo. And Ross is telling Rachel, you know, I had this crush on you. And it's this very sweet scene. And setting up what was ultimately a very problematic relationship that has not aged well a whole lot of ways. It's not James Burroughs fault, absolutely. But Burroughs is watching them, and Schwimmer and Aniston do a few takes, and they're just holding the Oreo. And finally, Burroughs turns to Schwimmer in between one of them and says, next time, after she gets up, eat the cookie. And it's like he's eating the cookie and he's chewing the cookie as he then stands up and does this dorky little half dance to celebrate. And it is so much more charming because his mouth is full than otherwise. And that was just an instinct that he had. And he took this thing that was already very good, and he made it special. All right, so this was great to get to talk about him. Now we're going to cut to Tatiana. Again, I did this on my phone. So our editor, Riley, has done their absolute best to make this sound good. In the future, when we have guests on, we'll be doing it the same way you and I talk. So you will get to both see them and hear them better. But this was, again, a soft launch. I have no idea if you're watching this on YouTube, how Riley has chosen to illustrate this interview.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Thank you, Riley.

[Alan Sepinwall]

But yes, we love you, Riley. But regardless, Tatiana, very smart. It was a very fun conversation. Let's hear it. Tatiana Maslany. What is something about TV that you love?

[Tatiana Maslany]

I love. Well, okay, so I get quite fanatic about something. I want to, like, live inside of something, whether it's music, whether it's, like, an aesthetic or whatever it is. And for me to get to sit with a TV show over a long period of time, you know, know, sit in a story for that long or sit with a kind of a sense of. Or a style of humor or like a certain actor or whatever for an extended amount of time, is kind of. I love that feeling, you know, to sort of live in the obsession a little bit.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Was there a show, like, when you were growing up that you were particularly obsessed with?

[Tatiana Maslany]

I mean, there were definitely shows that felt like even when Cheers would come on at the end of the night.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah.

[Tatiana Maslany]

Which is the end of the night, because it meant I had to go to bed.

[Acast Advertiser]

Oh, yeah.

[Tatiana Maslany]

But the feeling of Cheers coming on was like, oh, something's changing. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's something really like. And since then, my husband and I both, like, he. He started binge watching it and the whole series, and I was with him on it. And, like, seeing it as an adult now is such a different experience that, you know.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Well, it's interesting because when I was growing up, I mainly started watching it around the time that Kirsten Alley joined the show. I didn't see Diane until much later. And so as a kid, Rebecca, that was my show. And then I go back and watch it, I'm like, oh, my God, I had no idea it was all of this, too. Do you prefer one era to the other?

[Tatiana Maslany]

No, I literally think those two actors are just. They built such beautiful characters in both of those women who had a lot of. Of baggage to carry, you know, in a bar setting, in a very masculine setting. You know, there's so much about interesting masculinity stuff in that show and femininity and. And just, like, gender stuff. So I think, like, to be that powerful as a comedian and as. Just as an actor for those two women was just like.

[Alan Sepinwall]

It's really. It's impressive because it's a show, it's in a sports bar, the majority of the cast are mentioned. Diane does not belong there, does not like it, and it would be so easy for her to just be the butt of the joke. And the show has contempt for her, and it loves her.

[Tatiana Maslany]

Yes, it totally loves her. And she loves that character, too. You can feel her, like, defend that character to the dead. You know, she really holds steady to this counter to everybody else that if it didn't Exist, it would just collapse. Like, there'd be no spine to the show. Do you know what I mean?

[Alan Sepinwall]

I know exactly what you mean. Do you have a favorite episode or even a favorite Cheers joke?

[Tatiana Maslany]

No, I'm, like, trying to think. I always, like, the Cold Open is always just like, is it gonna work or isn't it? You know what I mean? Is it gonna hit? Like, and especially watching it now, that one wasn't great.

[Acast Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

But then they want us, like, a perfect, like, 92nd sketch.

[Tatiana Maslany]

Totally. Totally. And I think what I love, too, about and why I think that show comes up for me in talking to you is like, that there was time for that show to find its legs.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah.

[Tatiana Maslany]

That it wasn't like, oh, the pilot didn't. Didn't go well.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah.

[Tatiana Maslany]

It was like two seasons or something for them to be like, we're gonna give this a chance.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Warren Littlefield was here yesterday. At the time, he was a junior NBC comedy executive assigned to Cheers. And in the first season, it was the lowest rated show on network tv.

[Tatiana Maslany]

Right.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And they're like, should we renew it? And I think he said, Grant Tinker said, well, do you have anything better to replace it with?

[Tatiana Maslany]

Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

So they kept it on, and eventually by the end, it was the number one show on tv.

[Tatiana Maslany]

Which is like, so couldn't happen nowadays.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

No.

[Tatiana Maslany]

It's like as soon as something doesn't hit right away or some. It's not memed or whatever, it's like it just goes. And so it's just really like. Yeah, it's. I mean, I don't know how that, how we ever get back to that kind of trust and faith in a. A, you know, a voice or whatever. Yeah.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Because even something like Orphan Black obviously never had the viewership of Cheers. But, like, it debuts and immediately there's all this buzz around. Have you seen this woman and what she's doing?

[Tatiana Maslany]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. It has to have the pilot has to say everything right away. Do you like. As opposed to, like, I even remember, like, watching Deadwood and being like this. I, I, it always felt to me like HBO shows. I was like, I need like, seven episodes and then I'm in. Yeah. Cause then I, like, then I'm in the world in a way that, you

[Acast Advertiser]

know what I mean?

[Tatiana Maslany]

Because there's so much information initially. Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Like I always tell people about the Wire is you need to set aside four hours to watch the first four episodes, otherwise you're gonna have no idea A, what's happening, and B, if you like it right.

[Tatiana Maslany]

You have to, like, sit in it. Sit with it a little bit.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

I think that's what I love about

[Tatiana Maslany]

television, is that you can sit in something for a time and sort of like. It's like a. It's like reading a novel as opposed to, like a novella, you know, it's like.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, that's right.

[Tatiana Maslany]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Katherine, was the TV good this week?

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

The TV was good. The TV was pretty good. Yeah. Yep.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I mean, that's. We talked about Cheers a little bit. That's something of an understatement.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Okay, well, Cheers is. Cheers is. I mean, a legend. I. I'm. Yeah, I'm just still thinking about Carmen as an architect. But I'm gonna shake it off. It's gonna be okay.

[Alan Sepinwall]

There's. Just think about the coke ribs. The coke ribs are really good.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

All right. All right, well, they can ship me some coke, then. I'll.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Chucky and Chi Chi and the guys from the Beef threw a big party out on the patio where there may or may not have been cocaine.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

There was. I think there was cocaine. All right. Okay. Yes. So what are we talking about next week, Alan?

[Alan Sepinwall]

Next week we will be talking about Prime Video's Legally Blonde prequel called Elle.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

And then we are going to be talking about another show that has all of the exact same qualities and characteristics and will appeal to the exact same audience of Illegal Blonde prequel, the NBC Horror Show. Hannibal.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I cannot wait to talk about Hannibal. Yeah, you can find my [e-mail] you can find Catherine's [e-mail] my Rod Serling book, available for pre order. All those links will be in the show notes. And if you want to contact us directly to ask for segments, or maybe at some point we will do listener mail because you know August is going to be a little slow. You can write to us.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

[e-mail] Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. You heard us talk about it before, but it is the only way to beat the algorithm.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And we hate the algorithm. But we love tv.

[Katherine Van Arendonk]

Thanks to Joe Kennedy for our theme music and Kate Bergener for our artwork and Riley Ralph for editing.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Thank you for listening.

[Tatiana Maslany]

Foreign.

[Acast Advertiser]

When was the last time a display ad changed your mind? Now, think about the last time a friend told you about something they loved. Different feeling, right? That's how podcast advertising works. A host who's built real trust with their audience talks about your brand in their own words, in their own voice. It doesn't interrupt the experience. It's part of it. With Acast you can access the world's largest podcast marketplace. Choose the right shows, the right audiences, the right format, then watch the data tell you it worked. You're not buying impressions, you're buying influence. Learn more by visiting acast. Com Advertisement.