Love Island & Lost

Summary

TV Is Good – Episode Summary

Episode: Love Island & Lost
Date: June 1, 2026
Hosts: Alan Sepinwall & Kathryn VanArendonk

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Episode Overview

TV critics and friends Alan Sepinwall and Kathryn VanArendonk dive into two iconic “love on an island” shows from very different genres: the reality TV juggernaut Love Island USA and the beloved, time-bending episode “The Constant” from Lost. Kathryn, a reality TV aficionado, takes Alan through the appeal and structure of Love Island USA, aiming to make sense of its widespread popularity. In the second half, the pair revisit one of Lost’s most acclaimed episodes, exploring why “The Constant” still stands out in TV history. Their lively back-and-forth blends critical insight, pop culture nostalgia, and a healthy dose of camaraderie and banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage (02:35–03:02)

• Podcast mission: Each week, Alan and Kathryn discuss whether TV is good, focusing on both new releases and classic TV.
• Today’s focus: Why Love Island USA is a modern reality sensation and a critical revisit of “The Constant” (Lost, S4E5).

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2. Love Island USA Explained

(Main Segment: 03:02–41:39)

The Basics and Cultural Context

• Love Island USA is described as “an elaborate experiment in swimwear engineering thinly disguised as a reality show.” (03:02, Kathryn)
• Kathryn presents herself as “Love Island conversant” and hopes to give listeners the vocabulary and context to be part of the cultural conversation.

“Our hope is that … when people are like, ‘The thing I watch is Love Island,’ you will be like … at least I understand something about what you are talking about.” (03:02, Kathryn)

The Show’s Unique Format

• The show revolves around singles in a villa who must “couple up” to avoid elimination (19:42, Kathryn).
• Viewer participation is critical: “Viewers are actively participating in the process … both coupling people up and deciding who should be eliminated.” (19:34, Kathryn)
• The rapid production cycle (airing nearly every night for a month) creates a semi-live, event TV feel for viewers, requiring “habitual connection.”
  • “It is, like playoff season for sports.” (24:21, Kathryn)
• Alan compares the communal aspect to peak TV and sports, seeing Love Island’s eventized structure as a return to appointment TV.

“It requires you to really lock into the communal experience for you to be engaged … it’s shared in a way that I think very little television is.” (24:23, Kathryn)

Casting & Evolution of Success in America

• US version initially tried to mimic the UK show’s “regionalism” but found greater success by casting a mix, including actual Brits and Australians.
  • “Americans still wanted the Brits … they showed up and were playing a game in a way … Americans hadn’t yet clocked.” (27:33–28:56, Kathryn)
• The universal appeal: balancing authenticity with manipulation.
  • Reality TV has evolved beyond people pretending it’s all “real”; now fans “decode” what’s authentic versus produced, creating a new layer of engagement (32:38, Kathryn).

Gameplay and Key Twists

• Success requires managing both romantic attachments and the viewing audience’s sympathies.
• Two major mechanics drive the structure:
  1. Bombshells: New contestants introduced to disrupt relationships (35:24, Kathryn).
  2. Casa Amor: Mid-season split where existing couples are tested with new singles, forcing drama and possible re-coupling — “just blow up the entire thing midway through the season and start over again.” (36:13, Kathryn)
• The show “owns its dumbness” through witty, British-style voiceover commentary (especially by Iain Stirling), which sets it apart from “prestige” reality competitions (39:08–40:22, Kathryn).

Why Watch?

• For skeptics (like Alan), Kathryn highlights the show’s essential “sweetness”:
  • You invest not just in the drama, but also in the contestants’ relatability and occasional sincere connections.

“The ability to get invested in, not cruelty, is actually what is going to be the most compelling hook for you.” (41:05, Kathryn)

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3. TV Critic’s Detour: The Knicks’ NBA Finals Run

(07:57–12:19)

• Alan briefly digresses to share his obsession with the New York Knicks’ playoff run—a “beautiful basketball” narrative with “Ted Lasso vibes.”
  • Kathryn: “So it’s a Ted Lasso situation.” (11:08)
  • Alan: “We have to believe—they’re tapping the sign.” (11:11)

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4. Revisiting Lost: “The Constant”

(42:40–62:16)

Episode Context and Recap

• Alan gives a rapid-fire, context-rich recap of Lost and sets up “The Constant,” an episode centered on Desmond’s time-displaced consciousness and his love for Penny (43:40–44:37).
• Kathryn affirms the episode’s status as perhaps the “easiest one to point to as why this show was incredible,” blending “surprise” and emotional payoff. (45:37, Kathryn)
• Notably, Desmond was a late addition to the cast, yet his love story “became the romance that people ultimately invested in, I think the most.” (48:07, Alan)

The Magic of “The Constant”

• The episode’s emotional resonance comes from how it ties the series’ complex temporal puzzles to human longing.

“It matters that you love someone. And that they love you.” (52:28, Kathryn)

• It’s a rare moment where Lost’s convoluted mysteries serve the human story, not vice versa:

“The emotional logic tracks, even if nothing to do with the boat or the outrigger or the hatch or any of it else does.” (52:45, Kathryn)

• Alan highlights how the final phone call—after so much suspense—remains one of TV’s most powerful romantic climaxes (48:50, Alan).

Reflections on TV’s Changing Landscape

• Lost's old network format makes space for experimental or “off-format” gems like “The Constant”; current short-season dramas rarely have that luxury.
  • “There is no longer room for guys hang out and fix up a VW bus. There probably is not room for something like the Constant.” (55:52, Alan)
• The emotional thread is what sustains fan devotion, despite plot convolutions or disappointing answers in Lost’s finale.
  • “The people who liked it were the ones who were invested in the people … who, for the most part, got very satisfying emotional endings.” (54:54, Alan)

On Context and the Power of Payoff

• The hosts compare Lost’s “The Constant” to Six Feet Under’s famous finale montage—both emotionally impactful, but The Constant earns its affect through the entire episode’s structure and build-up (57:35–59:42, Kathryn & Alan).

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5. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “This is what we in the good old days used to refer to as service journalism.”
  — Alan Sepinwall (04:37)
• “This is a tale as old as time.”
  — Kathryn VanArendonk, on Love Island's premise (19:34)
• “The artifice versus the authenticity is the—like a QAnon style decoder ring.”
  — Kathryn VanArendonk, on how fans approach reality TV authenticity (32:38)
• “It is purely a popularity contest.”
  — Kathryn VanArendonk on Love Island's gameplay (30:42)
• “It is so, so reassuring and comforting and uplifting to have that argument have weight within this show where you don’t know what matters.”
  — Kathryn VanArendonk on Lost’s message in “The Constant” (54:32)
• “There is no longer room for guys hang out and fix up a VW bus. There probably is not room for something like the Constant…”
  — Alan Sepinwall on shifts in TV formats (55:52)
• “Thank you for wanting to talk about Love Island so I would have the excuse to do this.”
  — Alan Sepinwall, closing his thoughts on the emotional payoff of revisiting Lost (61:53)

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6. Important Timestamps

• Love Island USA Deep Dive: 03:02–41:39
• Knicks Digression: 07:57–12:19
• Lost – “The Constant” Recap and Analysis: 42:40–62:16
• Comparing Emotional Impact in TV: 57:25–59:42
• Next Week’s Tease (Vampire Shows): 62:26–63:19

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7. Looking Ahead

• Next week: They’ll explore vampires on TV—“The Vampire Lestat” and revisit Buffy the Vampire Slayer’s iconic Season 2 two-parter “Surprise” and “Innocence.”
• Listeners are encouraged to catch up on these episodes on Hulu for full context.

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Episode Verdict

Was the TV good this week?

“Yeah, I think the TV was good. And I think the TV, fingers crossed, is going to continue to be good in the month of June with Love Island USA and presumably your beloved Knicks.”
(62:16, Kathryn)

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Additional Notes

• Hosts promote the new Patreon and tease bonus material, e.g., a deep dive on Mad Men’s “The Suitcase.”
• They repeatedly thank and acknowledge their producer/editor and the community for ongoing support.

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Summary Table

| Segment | Timestamp | Highlights | |------------------------------|------------------|-----------------------------------| | Love Island USA Deep Dive | 03:02–41:39 | Event TV, gameplay, casting, appeal| | Knicks NBA Finals Sidebar | 07:57–12:19 | Obsessive fandom, sports narrative | | Lost: “The Constant” | 42:40–62:16 | Emotional resonance, time travel, nostalgia | | Emotional Impact in TV | 57:25–59:42 | Earned payoffs, montage vs narrative| | Next Week’s Tease | 62:26–63:19 | Vampires in TV history |

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For New Listeners

This episode is a vital, engaging primer on why Love Island USA is more than a summertime guilty pleasure and why Lost’s “The Constant” is a landmark moment in serialized television. Whether you’re a reality TV skeptic, a Lost nostalgist, or just a fan of sparkling, thoughtful TV criticism, Alan and Kathryn give you the context, analysis, and laughs to keep you coming back for more.

Transcript

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[Alan Sepinwall]

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[Katherine VanArendonk]

monetize their podcasts everywhere.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Acast.com. Hi, I'm Alan Sepinwall. I'm a TV Critic.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

I'm Katherine Vanarodonk. I'm also a TV critic.

[Alan Sepinwall]

We are friends and neighbors and we love to talk about TV together.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

And we are going to be talking about it with you.

[Alan Sepinwall]

That's right. This is the TV is Good podcast. And every week we're going to try to answer a simple question, is the TV good?

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Today we are going to be talking about the monumental, undeniable TV phenomenon, Love island, usa. It is an elaborate experiment in swimwear engineering thinly disguised as a reality show. And many of you will have at least heard about it at this point. And I am a. I would not describe myself as a Love island expert, but I am Love island conversant. And the goal for today is to try to explain, explain to Alan why this is a compelling piece of entertainment for lots of people and including me, and why. And what if you are not familiar with Love island, our hope is that you're going to come away from this conversation so that you can make it through this summer. And when people are like, I've been watched. The thing I watch is Love Island. You will be like, I haven't been following maybe, or I just started this season. But like, at least I understand something about what you are talking about. Do you know what I mean?

[Alan Sepinwall]

The words that are coming out of their mouths will make sense to you.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Yeah. And you will. You will be able to nod politely and ask interesting questions, follow up questions. Rather than that thing where your eyes just glaze over and you dissociate for a while. Or is that just me? Am I the only one?

[Alan Sepinwall]

Well, I mean, this is what we in the good old days used to refer to as service journalism. So you're welcome.

[Pura Fragrance Announcer]

Great.

[Alan Sepinwall]

In addition to that, we will also be talking about a very different version of Love on an island, the Lost episode, the Constant, which is an hour of television which contains much less swimwear but a similar ratio of people weeping while shouting about their feelings. So we contain multitudes here on TV is good.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

That is right. Well, TV contains multitudes and that's really what we're here to help with.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Exactly. All right, so before we get to that, some housekeeping. First of all, as you're listening to this, we have released our first Patreon episode [e-mail] tvisgoodpod. This is, as we mentioned last week, about the Suitcase, the arguably greatest episode of Mad Men. It is not a commentary. We'll be doing some of those later. It was really fun. If you are not a paid Patreon subscriber, We're going to be releasing a very short teaser of it so you can get a kind of a sense of what it is and maybe if you can, you will consider supporting us. We love doing this is a lot of fun. It's also time and money and effort and everything. And so joining the Patreon not only gets you bonus material, but also just helps you support what it is that we're doing. So if you have the means, we would appreciate that.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

You're going to be shocked to discover that we ended up in several conversational cul de sacs. Culs de sac about bottle episodes and the Apple TV show Sugar show. That I have relatively strong feelings despite not really liking the show that much. Maybe I'm. I have mixed feelings about Sugar and then. But we also spend quite a lot of time just really thinking about this fantastic and for me, really formative episode in, like, how I think about what TV is and can be. It's also so good if you have not seen the suitcase lately.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Oh, boy.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Put that sucker on. Have a nice time.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Exactly.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Have a nice time. Yeah. Yes. So you can find that at patreon.com tv is goodpod. That is where our Patreon is. And as Alan said, the Patreon is a way to get access to this and other bonus materials. But also, it's like, we gotta pay our producer, Riley. Riley's so great, and we really love them. And. And we can't do this if we can't pay Riley. So we.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, we're helping us out in this area. So please. That's all right. Some stuff. We'll tease the next episode towards the end, but some things to look forward to over the next month. We'll be doing Widow's Bay, the Vampire, Lestat, House of the Dragon. I may finally have my excuse to watch Taskmaster, which is a show I've heard wonderful things about forever and have just never been able to make the excuse. This could be it. There's only two seasons I have to catch up on, right, Catherine?

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Yeah, that's correct. Two meager seasons of television. And Taskmaster is going to be something that, if we get it onto this schedule, please let us know if that's something that you guys would be interested in hearing about. Of course. But also for me, it would be a really fun way to make an argument that I care about a lot, which is that it's. It's incredible children's television. And it will also teach them how to swear, which is really a useful skill, I think.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Finally, before we get to Love island usa, a conversation I'm very much looking forward to. We have to talk about the single best program that has been on television for the last month, and that is the New York Knickerbockers, who are just stampeding their way to the NBA Finals. We're recording this on Wednesday, May 27th. So I don't know yet who the Knicks will be facing in the finals, but a lot of regular TV critic style TV watching has had to go by the wayside for me as I've watched Jalen Brunson and Karl Anthony Townsend Co. Just be awesome and play the most beautiful basketball I've ever seen in my many decades of rooting for this misbegotten team. Katherine, you know, thoughts on Mikel Bridges?

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Okay, here's what I would really love for you. I don't follow sports almost at all, but I love when you get to close to the end of a season and everyone gets all excited about something and then I'm like, cool, what's the narrative here? Like, catch me up, give me a recap of like, you know, I'm so happy for the New Yorkers. Everyone seems to be so cheerful. I love the whole Zoran Momdani retweet tweeting Vivek Ramaswamy cheering for the Cavs. I'm in. I'm, I'm, I'm always excited about the event, but like, I, I need. Give me some grappling.

[Alan Sepinwall]

All right, okay. You like narrative? Here is a friggin narrative for you. The New York Knickerbockers, one of the original franchises of the NBA, were good and bad for most of the 20th century. The, the late 90s, they were really good. They made it to the NBA finals twice. We get to the 21st century and things go to shit. They are the most embarrassing team in the NBA for two decades. Really, really bad. Stupid decision after stupid decision and it just becomes like, why am I rooting for this team? I once sort of infamously, have you ever heard of Jeremy Lin? About 10 years ago, for about two weeks, he was the best basketball player on the planet. And they had what was called Linsanity. It was a phenomenon.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Cool.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay. The Knicks let him go as a free agent and I was so upset, I like, I created a Tumblr just to complain about this and declared that I was leaving my Knicks fandom forever. And that resolution lasted until the like, training camp of the following season because I have no willpower whatsoever. So Knicks fans, we've been suffering. We've been like, the owner of the team is an embarrassment. There was just all sorts of terrible things both on the court and behind the scenes. And then all of a sudden, in 2020, James Dolan, the terrible owner of the team, hired a new executive. And basically it has been this massive turnaround. They signed a point guard. His name is Jalen Brunson, who. Who everyone just assumed was a Nepo baby because his dad is a coach and briefly played for the knicks in the 90s. And it's like, okay, he's pretty good, but the Knicks have overpaid for him, and they're just bringing in people that they know and this isn't going to work. And instead, Jalen Brunson turned into one of the best players alive, and suddenly this colossal embarrassment is one of the best teams in the NBA and is potentially four wins away from winning their first championship since before I was born. So that is your story.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

So it's a Ted Lasso situation.

[Alan Sepinwall]

A Ted Lasso, exactly. We have to believe they're tapping. They're tapping the sign. So great.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Well, it has been so much to them.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And I'm sorry to people listening to the show or to reading me@what's allanwashing.com if I'm maybe not as current on Current TV, but, God, I gotta watch the next.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

When does this end?

[Alan Sepinwall]

Well, the game one is on June 3rd. It is a best of seven series, so there could be as few as four games. Could be as many as seven. That'll go for about two weeks.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Okay.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And then finally I get my regular television back. But, you know, hopefully I will be getting it back with the Knicks having a trophy. We'll see.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

That's so. It's so exciting. Everyone's going to get shirts.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Oh, yeah. No, I'm pre ordering shirts already. I'm very excited.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

It's also good timing because I. What little I have been able to absorb about the schedule of how one watches these things suggests that it's a fairly immersive experience. Right. Like, you have to be. It's like every other day there's a game.

[Alan Sepinwall]

It's been every other day so far. I think there's two or three days between games in the finals, which, you know, will elongate it and allow them to make more money.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Sure. Edging.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes. Often the phrase that I think of when I think of the New York Knickerbockers is edging.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Great. It's a phrase I think about a lot in the context of our word. I think about a lot in the context of Love island usa.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Oh, look at you transition. Very nice, Very nice.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

The other really relevant bit of context for that is that it sounds to me like this sports fandom is this. It requires a great deal of your time.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

And the timing is actually uncannily similar. The first episode of this next season of Love Island USA is going to begin on June 2nd. First of all, Alan.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

What's your relationship to reality shows?

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay. This is important. 1999. No, 2000 Survivor debuts. You know, great.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

We're doing like the full harp.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I'm Gen X. I grew up watching the Real World. You know, I watched, I think the first four or five seasons I may have tapped out around Miami. Like, I liked it when it was still like, people are living their lives and they're also in this house. And when it just became, you cannot have a life outside the house and you have to do whatever the producers say, that is when I kind of lost interest. But Survivor, I was obsessed with American Idol. I recapped every episode of for a long time. And then sometime around when we started really getting into peak tv. Or maybe it was. No, it was when I started working at hit fix in 2010 with my good friend and former podcast co host Dan Feinberg. He was already covering those shows and Amazing Race and the other reality vintage reality shows I was into at the time. And so there was no need for me to write about them. And then we were starting to get into peak TV and it becomes, well, if I'm not writing about this thing, I can't really spare the time to watch it, especially when I like other things better. And so reality TV very quickly fell out of my diet. And I will watch some, you know, the family and I, we love, you know, somebody feed Phil, you know, some travel shows, you know, the State. One of the Stanley Tucci Italy shows has gone into the rotation lately. But like, you know, Project Runway, Top Chef, Drag Race, Trader. I've never seen an episode of Traders. I'm aware that all of my friends love Traders. I just haven't seen it. It's not that I'm like anti reality tv. It's just at a certain point, I just, I had to make triage and I had to cut away a whole swath, an entire genre of television in order to be able to function with what I do. Like, how do you do it, Catherine? You have two small children. They require more hands on, like, parenting than mine do. And yet you're watching Love island and almost all of the stuff that I watch.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Yeah. I mean, it's not going great all the time, if I'm honest. You know, I don't. I don't really ever. I mean, it's like when anyone asks you, right, like, how do you watch everything? There's not a good answer. And you just sort of. You're like, every single day, say, is. It's like that thing where my calendar and my watch schedule is like, when you pull up the floorboards, and then you're like, we gotta call an exterminator. Like, that's kind of. That's. That's. This is the vibe. And. And so, you know, we. We make our. We make our choices and we do our best. But I do think part of the reason we wanted to have this conversation is peak television looked like a very specific, narrow kind of thing for quite a long time. And as part of my work at Vulture has evolved over the last several years, and I know you were feeling this at Rolling Stone, and I'm sure you are also feeling it among some of your readers of the newsletter. Reality TV is like. It's the thing people are watching. It is. It has increasingly moved out of this, like, this is this nether world of thing nobody wants to admit to, and really dominated a lot of the television conversations in the last several years. And I have. I have mixed feelings about that because I. There are a number of ethical and sort of labor concerns that are associated with a lot of these shows. Not that that's not the case on, you know, any kind of production. As we mentioned briefly in our Suitcase Patreon episode, you know, go sign up for that. But they are different, and they are, I think, more built into this, the nature of the thing in reality.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah, I mean, I. I remember like, in sometime around 04.05, maybe even earlier than that, I would be anywhere I go in terms of, like, at a party or, you know, family get togethers or whatever, people will talk to me about tv. And back then it was a lot of, when is this reality TV stuff going to go away? And obviously it hasn't. And some of those same people or same types of people now want to talk about Love island or Traitors or any of these shows. So, yes, I guess I appreciate the excuse to try to get back into it to a degree. We will see over the course of this project that you and I are doing together, how much I will actually be able to incorporate into my viewing diet. Katherine, tell me about Love island usa.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Great. So Love island, we're going to focus on Love island usa. And this is largely because of my own triage. I am not as conversant with its mothership, Love island uk, but they are connected projects in in more ways than just the premise. So Love Island UK started in 2015 and became this wild phenomenon. And obviously whenever there is a reality premise that does really, really well, producers are jumping all over how to port that over to American audiences. And there are a number of reasons why, unlike a lot of the K reality shows that do really well on Netflix, you really needed a Love Island USA specific version rather than just having all of the Americans watch the UK version, which they do. There's an enormous American fandom for the UK version. But Love island has some very specific things about its DNA that make it region locked in a way that is not the case for other reality shows. Now, again, not locked like Americans are watching UK left and right, 100%.

[Alan Sepinwall]

However, this could only be made with American contestants.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Not so much this. You need to be in a United States time zone to participate. The premise of Love island in, in any of its iterations is a very familiar one from a lot of reality shows. There is a villa, it is in a tropical location and there's a lot of very hot, very sweet or mean or angry or traumatized or, or ambitious or whatever it is, young singles who arrive in the villa and they are gonna hook up with each other. Like this is. This is a tale as old as time.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes, maybe not as old as time. I mean the bikini was only invented in mid 20th century.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

The difference, the distinguishing elements of Love island are these. The singles are all in this house and they can't survive through whatever the next round is. And I'm kind of doing quotations around round because there's a fair amount of Calvin Ball in the structure of this show. They cannot survive unless they are coupled up. You have to be in a couple with somebody else in order to not be eliminated. And every, every round, people get to vote, they get to you, they get to go on the Love island app and viewers are actively particip participating in the process of both coupling people up and deciding who should be eliminated. Again. We've had elements of this before in shows like American Idol. Any of the ones where you're texting, you know who the voice who you think gets to stay and who you who you think should leave. This is familiar. The Love island does add the fun element of occasionally then asking viewers to be like this person should hook up with that person. And so you are kind of moving dolls around the House. Not always, but that is. That is also a feature of it.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Wait, wait, wait, hold on. So, like. Yeah, you do not ne. Like, even if you're not into somebody, if the audience says you have to get with them, you have to get with them sometimes.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Sometimes.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay, yeah.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

So this, the whole villa is rigged with cameras.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Like. Like us, like a Big Brother house. This is not a show that is built like Love. Love is blind, where you have human operated. I mean, there are human camera, human camera operators. But a lot of the footage that you're watching is this surveillance style. There was a camera set up in the kitchen, and there's one in the makeup stand, and there's one in the bedroom. And what this allows them to do is to cut together footage quite quickly. And so unlike most reality shows, there is a new episode of Love island most nights of the week for several weeks. How many, like, when those episodes are and how many weeks has. Has varied somewhat across the runtime of this show. But this is what I mean when I say region locked, because there is a new episode that comes out every day, and then you as viewers have a fairly limited period time to watch that episode and then vote before the results of your vote have real impact on the island. And so if you are watching an international version, like, your voting period is happening partially in the middle of the night, episodes are coming out not timed to where you are. And so it is very helpful for the viewership of something like, you know, a show like this to have, like, this is the US Version.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And is this the kind of show where you can dip in and out, or if you're watching a season, you are pot committed every night to watching this thing.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

I mean, you. You can turn on Love island whenever you like. They're going to do their best to recap narratives so that when you turn on an episode, you're not completely at sea. But you will 100% have missed all of the lore. And this is, I think for me, this is like, the main reason why this show has become so incredibly dominant in the last couple of years, and why it's moved from CBS to Peacock has been so important for requires this habitual connection to it. And as television has drifted farther and farther away from weekly appointment viewing, people still really miss having a thing that's like, I know this came out today, and it is important for me to watch it so that I can be a part of the conversation in what is happening in television and Love Island. You. You got to keep showing up. You can't Fall too far behind. But it's Also, it's not 10 weeks of an Apple show. It's. It's like a four to five week period in the summer that you are committed. It's like, Nick, it's like playoff season for sports.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Sure, I get that.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

And so it allows every, it creates this communal experience. It requires you to really lock into the communal experience for you to be engaged. And then of course, you are waking up every day and you are saying, I cannot believe the challenges that they did last night. How do they have the production value for that stripper pole? Right. Like, it just is. It is. It's shared in a way that I think very little television is. In a way, I miss it. It's so good. It's so important. Okay, so what, what questions do you have lead me through what you would like to know.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay, so again, going back to the prehistoric days of reality tv, Big Brother comes over from Europe to America and the first season is a catastrophe. Just nobody's watching. It's tedious. The audience is repeatedly voting out anyone who is remotely interesting because anyone who's remotely interesting is in some way like bad. And they're just, they want to keep the nice people around and the nice people are the most boring. So after the first season they completely reconceptualize everything and among other things, they get rid of the audience votes and it's just, it becomes entirely a game player, strategizing, etc. And it becomes much like Survivor and all of the other ones. This is, you've got your audience participation aspect of it. This is many years later. What is the, like, are there specific types that the audience seems to really pull for or push against?

[Katherine VanArendonk]

This is another element of why it took Love Island USA quite a while to really connect with people and has been an important part of the peacock era of this show and its success. There was this like well documented American fandom for Love island uk and the assumption was at the beginning that you bring it over to the US and you put it on CBS every night. Which nobody is going to CBS every night. They want to be able to watch it on a streaming platform because if it's every night, I, I actually do really want to be able to like decide if I'm starting at 8 or 8:30. Like my, my life does have to have some kind of fle around this

[Alan Sepinwall]

whole idea of like broadcast shows and linear cable shows that you can only watch the next morning on the affiliated streamer that needs to go away. But the problem is the business model makes that hard to do.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

A mess. Yes. So that was part of it. But I think there was this other assumption, which was like, people loved these Love Island UK dummies. They have a particular look and Britishness to them. A lot of really incredible regional British accents. People not from these do not sound like Oxford Cambridge graduates. They sound like they're from Manchester. They have. There's a lot of British regionalism that people. American audiences were enjoying. And I think the logic was you bring them over, you do a US Version, and you're going to stock it with similar American regionalisms. You're going to have a guy from Boston and you're going to have a guy from Alabama and a guy from Texas and a guy from the. The Midwest, and people are going to be like, look at that crazy Boston accent. Isn't it so funny that he talks like a surfer? No. Americans still wanted the Brits. This is one of the fascinating things about this experience. Yes. Part of why Love island usa, the turnaround in it is that they started casting some Brits. It's also Americans, okay. It's also plenty of Americans and they look and sound great and often do have the kind of like, he's got the deep Southern accent and she sounds like she's from Vermont or whatever. But there's also people from Australia and people from, like, deep Manchester in. In the uk and there's a number of, like, theories about why this was necessary, some of it being that the people who they were able to cast from the UK understood what they were signing up for. In a way, a lot of the Americans didn't. And so they showed up and were playing a game in a way that, like, I think a lot of the American contestants hadn't yet clocked that they needed to.

[Alan Sepinwall]

So this then brings me to the next question, which is, like, gameplay. What. How. What defines a successful Love Island USA player? How do you get to the end? What are you sort of trying to do?

[Katherine VanArendonk]

As I said before, the structure of this show is a fair amount of Calvin Ball. There are. There are. Which is part of the appeal, right?

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Viewers got tired by the predictability of something like Project Runway. And when you have just a bunch of singles in a villa, producers can look at them and be like, you know what would be fun tomorrow? A water slide challenge. Like, it just is. It is. They. They can create all kinds of different twists and. And turns. And that has made the gameplay obviously have to adapt technically. The goal is to be the couple who wins at the end. You it's. You have to be in a couple.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

And you then get the most votes from all of the viewers to say that you are the winners of this season. And you. That comes with a cash prize and fame and all of the associated reality TV cultural trappings. But the things that viewers are voting for have nothing to do with, like, how many challenges did you win or did you, you know, find a certain number of immunity idols or was there any kind of objective measure of how you got to the end? It is purely a popularity contest.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay. And generally, do they go for, like, the nicer people or do they go for the more colorful characters?

[Katherine VanArendonk]

The way the gameplay has evolved has forced the show and the participants in the show to adapt a really careful balancing act. So to give you a sense, the first episode, usually, you know, you get. I can't remember, it's like 8 to 10ish hot singles. Obviously it's not an even number because you're going to have a lot. It's going to be five men and four women or whatever the case is. And they then all start doing that. Do you like him? Do you like her? And just like something like the Bachelor or Love is Blind, you have to do a fair amount of staring into the camera and saying, I really like this person. Even if I were not here on this island while where everyone is watching me, I would be interested in dating this person because everyone has figured out that. That the appeal of the game is feeling legitimately. And. And, and I think there's this belief among people who have not been following the last several years of reality TV that stems from this memory of the End of the Hills where it was like, we all know they're not friends. We all know this is fake. As you're driving away, the backdrop goes up and the whole artifice of it has been revealed. And how can you keep watching reality TV after that because you know that this whole thing is fake? Are now in a completely different era of how people engage with these shows. The artifice versus the authenticity is the. Is like a QAnon style decoder ring that you then become invested in.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Which parts of this are fake? Which parts of this are real? I know this whole thing is fake. I am going into this thing with a baseline understanding that all of this has been created. And yes, producers are manipulating them and yes, of course, their motives are suspecting. But do you think. Look at how he looked at her. I think that was real. I think despite what he keeps saying to the cameras, he is into her and so this, this is how you continue to find these stories to be compelling. Because it is the kind of work that everyone does in your real life where you are with all of your friends and you're like, she keeps saying that she wants to break up with him, but look at her. She. Why, why are we still going out with them all the time? She should just do it is a really satisfying kind of interpersonal decoding that people like to do. This is a long winded answer to say that winners of Love island have to be effective manipulators of both sides of that they have to be able to have played the game, have demonstrated their willingness to stab people in the back, to be strategically smart about the choices that they are making and who they are connecting with and who clearly is not an audience favorite. But they, they have to be doing it in a way that is subtle enough that there can still be this enormous fandom that says I, but I just think they're good for each other. Like, I know it's fate, but I think they're good for each other, you know? Yeah.

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Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

All right, so tell me more about the show. Hold on. Before we do that, I. I did Wikipedia. So a couple things. The bikini was officially invented in 1946. Yes, yes. By Louis Rard in France, named after the Bikini atoll where the first public test of a nuclear bomb had taken place. This is all super relevant to Love Island. However, there is evidence in antiquity of these. There is a mural that was found circa 5600 BC that depicts a mother goddess astride two leopards, wearing a costume somewhat like a bikini diva. And the two piece swimsuit can be traced back to the Greco Roman world where bikini like garments worn by women athletes are depicted on urns and paintings dated back to 1400 BC.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Yeah, you can't be telling me that like people weren't wearing basically a bikini going back for as long as.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay, find it. So Love Island USA is baked into our DNA as a species. I apologize.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

A couple of other important points to think about when you are understanding how Love island works. The one thing that always, always happens is that there are bombshells. So you're not just following these same people. And it's why you can't just necessarily come in halfway into the middle of the season, are introduced regularly while other people are being eliminated. So you're like, all of the couples are settled in, everyone's pretty comfortable. And then it's like hot new single walks in. Are they going to be the cool new thing? Is it Worth breaking up your couple in order to try to get on the new cool thing. So that's the bombshell. The other thing that happens is halfway through the season, there is something called Casa Amor.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay, you've been warning me about this. I want to hear what is so spec. What is deserving of the hype. Hype regarding Casa Amore.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

So it they switch which gender it is. But if there are more men than women currently on the island, the Casa Amor will be full of women. And if the vice versa, it'll be full of brand new men. And everyone splits. The couples split for a week. So the men then go and do a kind of mini new version of Love island over in. And then they bring in singles on the other side too. And then everyone comes back together and it's like, do you actually want to stay with the person that you were coupled in before, or have you created this new connection with the Casa Amor person? How. How are all of the loyalties going to work out? It is a really wild, like, just blow up the entire thing midway through the season and then start over again.

[Alan Sepinwall]

All right. Okay. So then this raises another question.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Yes.

[Alan Sepinwall]

You know, on most shows, on the traditional scripted shows, people are always most invested in the original characters. And you start bringing in other people later in the series, and it's like, yes, exactly. Tailies or, you know, whatever. Every now and then you'll get like a Ben and a Chris on Parks and Rec. But mostly it's like, we are loyal to the people who brung you.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Yes.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes. Okay, so now you're talking about you've got bombshells and you've got Casa more people. So there's just waves of new additions who are not on the island to begin with. Do they tend to do well, or is the audience mostly invested in the original group?

[Katherine VanArendonk]

It is hard to say because often audiences stay invested in most of the people in the original group. However, sometimes even in the course of a few weeks, those dynamics can get so unpleasant and toxic that what you get instead is people being like, I. I have had it. I cannot deal with this person anymore. Dump them. I don't even care who this, like, anonymous blonde person is. They would be better just end this thing. And so you people have flown way too close to the flame and for sure gotten dumped, and then you end up with a fair amount of new people by the end. Okay, yeah, so that's. That's something that happens. The other thing that I want to mention that really distinguishes this show is the voiceover, which was Then stolen as an idea in Netflix's the Circle. Ian Sterling is a British guy who does the voiceover of the of Love island uk and also now does it for Love island usa. And so you're at. As you're watching all of this kind of surveillance style footage of, for instance, all of the men making breakfasts for all of the women while all of the women sit in their little makeup stands, because it takes the women a long time to get ready every morning because they have to put on a full face of makeup. And so part of the ritual has become not by the rules, just by the way. Love island culture has developed within itself. The men make breakfasts for the women that they're interested in. Who gets a breakfast?

[Alan Sepinwall]

Seems like a nice group of people.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Okay, who doesn't get a breakfast? Did you give her two pieces of avocado toast or just one? All of this. She doesn't like the onions. And yet you put the onions on them anyhow. So as you're watching all of this surveillance footage, which is not shot by human camera operators directly, and so it's a little bit like, what am I even looking at? You then have Ian Sterling, who is both describing what is happening in the scene so that you notice that he only gave her one piece of avocado toast, but also lightly making fun of them at all times, which allows the show to own its own dumbness. It's not pretending like something like Top Chef or Project Runway, that this is the best of the best. It is saying, look at these sweet himbos. Look at how much she is crying. She's only known him for three days. And so you then, as the audience, can still have this emotional investment in these people without the cognitive dissonance of these people. I mean, what is even happening here? I cannot respect myself for watching this. Like, it lampshades it at all times, which is part of what has made the DNA so successful, I think.

[Alan Sepinwall]

All right, so then the last question I have is because you've known me a long time, you know, sort of what my tastes are and what they aren't, what is the one aspect of Love island that you think if I were to turn on Peacock on June 2 because the Knicks are not playing that night.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Start watching. That would make me give up my beloved Knicks in the finals and just be watching Love Island USA for the next month.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Okay. I'm not ever going to pretend that there's anything about Love Island USA that could compete with a lifelong fandom and a championship run from before, from that has not happened since before your birth. Yes, I do think that Love Island USA has to lead with sweetness because you have to be invested in these people. There will always be toxic ones. There will always be turds in the pool, but you have to have a certain amount of. Of baseline. These are adorable people who say silly things to each other. And I. I think the ability to get invested in, not cruelty, is actually what is. What is going to be a most. The most compelling hook for you.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay, that sounds good. All right. I can't promise anything, but it's June 7th.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

I'm gonna find some clips. I'm gonna find some clips and just send you, like, look how silly this is. I have faith in myself to at least pique your curiosity.

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[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay, so we talked about Love Island. Now we're going to talk about love on an island with the classic Lost episode the Constant, the fifth episode of season four of one of the most acclaimed but also one of the most polarizing television programs of the 21st century. So this is midway through season four. This is the season where you're. You're finding out that some of the people on the island made it back to the mainland. And so instead of getting flashbacks, you're now getting flash forwards to what happened with the Oceanic Six. This episode has nothing to do with that. The. The main thing that is happening here is there's a ship with a bunch of, like, researchers and pirates and other people with fuzzy motivations that the show never entirely untangles has arrived on the island. Daniel Faraday is a physicist. Miles Strom is a medium. There's Charlotte. I forget what her deal is. Frank Lapidas is a pilot who Sawyer calls Chesty Larue. And now whenever I see Jeff Fahey on the show, I go, hey, it's Chessy Larue.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

There's this new group of people, Bombshells, if you will.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes, they're the bombshells. Saeed wants to go to the boat and find out what's going on. And Desmond insists on going with him because at first they thought that the boat belonged to Desmond's longtime lover, Penny. And then, famously, Charlie dies while writing on his hand, not Penny's boat. Exactly. So Desmond wants to find out what's going on. They get in the helicopter, and then all of a sudden, Desmond is flashing back. He's traveling back in time to his Life in the 90s as a member of, I think, the Royal Scots Guards. And he's going back and forth. And it turns out that this is a thing that happens to some people from this boat's crew as they go back and forth because of the weird timey wimey properties of the island. And another one, played by Oscar winner Fisher Stevens, dies as a result of this. Desmond is going to die, too, unless he can somehow get a hold of his emotional constant, which is Penny, which means he has to get a hold of Penny's phone number. So that is the setup of the episode, the constant.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

And for anyone who's completely at sea, Lost was a television show.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Oh, my God. What am I even doing here? Okay, let's. I mean, do you want to start over, or should we just go from here?

[Katherine VanArendonk]

No, no, I think it's funnier this way.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Just great.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Loss is a TV show.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Loss is a TV show. A plane crashes on an island. Weird shit is happening on this island. There's a polar bear on this island. There's like a frozen wheel. There's all of these people on the island. And for whatever reason, our main character is Jack Shepard, who could not possibly show less interest in the weird shit happening on the island. But there's this colorful group of characters, one of whom is Desmond David Hume, who in the previous season of the show kept getting flash forwards, like he was getting prophetic visions of the future. These have now stopped, and somehow now he is traveling back in time. Crazy stuff is happening on this show. Catherine, first of all, is the constant, the most beloved episode of Lost.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

I mean, mine, of course, is the Nikki Paolo episode.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Sure, sure, that's. You gotta. You gotta roll how you roll.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

It is probably the easiest one to point to as why this show was incredible. I think there are a ton of different moments, particularly early in the first season, where the appeal was that it would keep pulling the rug out and you would go like, wait, this is the show I'm watching. This is the show I'm watching. And you get that early, like, episode three, walkabout twist. You get all these different incredible discoveries. The, the season one finale where you get the whole hatch thing that is introduced into the show. So I think there are depending on what you liked about Lost, there are probably different answers to that question that would all make sense to me. I think this is the episode that best lives in the pocket of all of the different things that work about this show where you are combining surprise where you. You are truly like, wait, this is what this show is still about. And its ability to keep doing that in season four is. Is remarkable. It is for necessarily because of its DNA is the kind of show that had to do what I think Damon Lindelof at the time called Tap Dancing.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Where you are in this. Like, I, I. What I want to give you is answers, but I can't give you answers. And so we are stuck in this need to make it seem like we are moving forward, but actually we are standing still and the constant is able to not actually go move so far forward. Except you are really finding out interesting pieces, information at the same time, answers without answers. One of maybe the best examples of the show's ability to do that. And then of course, the only reason you are still watching this show four seasons in is because you care about who these people are and you care about what their, what their feelings are. And there is no episode of Lost that does that better than this one.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And it's funny because again, getting back to our discussion before about how people invest most in the original characters. Desmond is not introduced until the start of season two. He's not a regular until season three. Penny is an infrequent presence on the show. Mostly appears in Desmond flashbacks prior to this. And yet, like, this is a, this is the romance that people ultimately invested in, I think the most, certainly more than any of the. The triangle between Jack and Kate and Sawyer. And I guess eventually it became a quadrangle with Juliet. And there's some great stuff there. But, like, this is the swooning Lost romance episode. And you, you asked me, I think last week about, like, how, how much I like romance. I love the romance in this episode and the way that Henry and Cusick and Sony Walker play the final scene where you finally do get the phone call. Like, I'm just, you know, heart thumping out of the chest on that.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Yeah. Yeah. So I, I wonder if you could talk about, like, I. This is another one where I was certainly watching and following TV stuff and, and reading your recaps and reading what everyone was writing about, but I was not a professional TV critic at the time. What did what? Do you remember when this episode came out? Like, what the general mo. Were you watching it live? Did you have a screener? Do you remember the.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I don't. I don't think. I think we occasionally got screeners, but, like, with network shows especially back then, you were not getting every episode in advance. So this was the day. Days I would just stay up and write about it. And this was when I hit. My first kid was very young, so I don't know what the hell I was doing. But, yeah, so I stayed up and I wrote about it and I raved about it. And I remember, like, the comments at the time. People were very, very into this one. This was. Sometimes you get, like, the thing that becomes recognized as a classic later. This was one you're watching. It's like, oh, this is something special. And, you know, and it's. Even before you get to the phone call, just sort of again, I think. And he's never been able to replicate this and anything else I've seen him in. But Henry and Cusick is, like, so compelling as Desmond. And Desmond is, like, this interesting character and really charismatic. And then on top of that, you have all the stuff on the boat. And the funny thing is the boat never amounts to anything. You know, you've got Kevin Durand as Kimi, who's this super imposing physical presence. And I wish he had been able to play Jack Reacher at some point. Point. But, like, Kimi is nothing. Charlotte, among the group that comes to the island is really nothing. They don't know what to do with her. There's just a lot of characters that the show would introduce, played by these really interesting actors, and they would go nowhere. And, you know, there's a lot of talk on the boat about the Captain. The Captain is nothing. And yet, like, the. The. The. The core ideas, the core emotions, the way that the show is able to use the past to inform the present is still really effective. And this is maybe the most direct version of that, because you're having him literally, especially at the beginning. There is no time gap between when he goes to the present and the past. He's always returning to the exact same moment. And so you're seeing, like, he's. He's saying a sentence in one reality, then he's finishing it in the other, and he's finishing in the other, like, two seconds after, like, young Faraday is seeing him at Oxford. And so. And then eventually you get to the phone call and it's. You're seeing Desmond walking away from Penny's flat in the past. And you're seeing Desmond on the phone with Penny in the present and you're hearing the voiceover in the glimpse of the past. And it's always. It all feels like time is a flat circle. This is all happening at once. And everything that we ever go through in life affects what we're going. Affects what we're feeling in this particular moment. It's really powerful and really, like, beautifully done. And Lindelof and Carlton Cues wrote this one. It's sort of like when you get a. Get the. It's not always the case that when you get the showrunners writing an episode, it's the best. This is one of those.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

This is one of those. I think it is. Also the show gets stuck in all of these places that are so arcane, where you're like, it's the. It's the polar bear and it's the hatch and it's the Dharma Initiative. And it is very difficult to keep track of and purposely on their part. Which of these things are important? Which of them are ultimately going to be red herrings or are even going to be red herrings by, like, the next episode? Does the captain ever actually amount to anything? I do not know. I can't tell what size any of these clues are. And so it's really, really satisfying to have an episode where the answer is it matters that you love someone.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yes.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

And that they love you. And that whatever else is happening, as this show has been jumping back and forth in time from the first episode. And what matters is the thing you, the audience, also keep noticing and caring about, which is what Things stay the same. This person was this to them when they were before the island. And they're still. It still has the meaning for them afterward. The emotional logic tracks, even if nothing to do with the boat or the outrigger or the. Or the hatch or any of it else does.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah. John Locke, like island badass survivalist, is the same emotional person that he is whenever we see him back in the real world. He's just more physically capable now, but he's still, like, aggrieved and resentful and, you know, self doubting. So.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And it's. Please.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Well, I was just gonna say, I think the other thing that those flashbacks, part of why they were so appealing, particularly in the first season, when they still felt quite novel, is that they are demonstrations of context. Right. This kind of person in this situation has this kind of meaning. And then when you put them in this totally different context where they are among strangers on this island. All of those personality traits suddenly have use or suddenly mean nothing, or they develop all these different ways of interacting with the people around them. And that is really, I think, appealing as a story for. For, like, people to follow because we often feel so, and are. Are legitimately so impacted by the contexts around us. And so there's something like, I. If I were in this other. What would it be like? If I were on Love island or if I were on Survivor, would my personality do this or would it do that? And a lot of fiction is the ability to imagine those kinds of things. And this one argues, yeah, the context matters so much. But also, there are some things that are always going to stay the same, that are always going to be who these people are. And it is so, so reassuring and comforting and uplifting to have that argument have weight within this show where you don't know what. What matters.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah. And the thing is, when you get to the end of Lost, there were some people who loved the finale and some people who hated it. And I think. Think really?

[Katherine VanArendonk]

I had not heard that. I had not. I had. This is brand new information to me.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay. It's. I don't want to make it like a pure binary, but it does feel to a degree, the people who hated it hated it because the thing they cared about most on Lost was the mystery, the answers. And the answers, for the most part, were not good. And like, even Linda Lof will tell you that. But the people who liked it were the ones who were invested in the people, the characters on the show who, for the most part, got very satisfying emotional endings. And you talked before about tap dancing. And there are definitely episodes in the run of the show that are just like, we have to do something here. We have to fill an hour. But there's also ones where they have to fill an hour and they do something beautiful with it. This is one of those. Trisha Tanaka is dead, which is from the previous season, where Hurley and Charlie, like, fix up the. The Dharma Initiative, you know, VW Bus. That's one of my favorite episodes of the show. It has no bearing on the plot whatsoever, but it's about the people. And that's the kind of thing that we have, for the most part, Lost, no pun intended, in the downgrade.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

I'm doing the DiCaprio meme.

[Alan Sepinwall]

God. All right. It's the thing that we. We no longer have. When we've gone from 22 episodes per season of a drama to 10 or eight or six, there is no longer room for guys hang out and fix up a VW bus. There probably is not room for something like the Constant, because again, Desmond is not that important a character in the grand scheme of things, even within the plot of the show. Maybe they would do it, maybe they wouldn't. So I. But I'm glad that it got here and it's very potent. But here's the other question I want to ask you, which is I did for the second never released season of the Too Long didn't watch podcast. I watched the Six Feet under finale with comedian Maria Bamford, and she did not like it. She had not seen the rest of the show and even, like the closing

[Katherine VanArendonk]

montage did nothing for her release the archives. I need to hear that.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I don't have the rights to it. I wish I could, but I remember watching it and like, I'm thinking, all right, she. We're talking. She's not into it. She's not into it. She's not into it. And I'm also thinking, you know what? To be perfectly honest, most of this finale is just okay. But I'm thinking, all right, we're gonna get to the Sia montage with Breathe Me where we see how everybody dies, and Maria Bamford's heart is going to go grow three sizes and she's going to love this. And she did not at all because she did not have the context for it, which was interesting. But still, watching the episode, it made me think how much of when people talk about how Six Feet under her maybe has the best finale ever, is that pretty much just that montage? And so I think it kind of is.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Yeah, I think so too. In the case of Six Feet under, for sure.

[Alan Sepinwall]

All right, so that brings me to this. How much of the constant the fact that we love it is the phone call versus the whole episode?

[Katherine VanArendonk]

I think it is less the case for this than it is in the Six Feet under finale for a couple reasons. The first one is that unlike the Six Feet under finale, you can kind of where you can take that montage and you're like, I, I. You can watch it in a vacuum by itself, essentially. The phone call doesn't actually mean that much unless you have this buildup, and particularly of the stress of watching Desmond continue, like, further and further lose his grip in time and of Fisher Stevens head slowly exploding. Little asterisks here. If you haven't followed the career of one Fisher Stevens recently, I really recommend a browse through the Wikipedia page. He's like a highfalutin Like. Like documentary director.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Yeah. I was not joking when I said Oscar winner Fisher Stevens. He produced an Oscar winning documentary.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Yes. And it's. It's. I have a lot of questions for and about Fisher Stevens, and I don't know if I'm ever gonna get the answers, but maybe one day. Yes. So I don't think the phone call can be excised and appreciated on its own in a way that that Six Feet under montage can. That's the first thing. The second thing is that I like a lot of the earlier stuff. I like the way that they don't do a lot of hand holding about the time travel in the beginning. And you're just. You're sort of adrift, trying to figure out what's happening in Desmond's brain. I really love the stupid, like, the mouse ran through the maze even though he wasn't gonna teach it to her for another hour. That's.

[Alan Sepinwall]

That's some Bill and Ted shit right there.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Bill and Ted shit. And then the mouse is dead, because, of course the mouse is dead. And yes, these are. No wheels are being reinvented here. But it is so well executed that I am in. I am up for it occasionally in this episode, as I was revisiting it, it really was. I have not watched it in quite a long time and it was like, wow, that guy. What is that guy? Did that ever. Nope. No idea. Not important. Okay.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I mean, I think even the last bit, when you cut to Daniel on the island, writing in his. Seeing the page in his journal, like, if I ever get into trouble, Desmond will be my constant.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Don't think that was actually a thing. But again, it's been a long time because I know what ultimately happens to Daniel and it is not tied to Desmond.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Yeah, I. I could not remember that either. But I do love a Scribbly Mania notebook. I think that's a fun prop in most contexts.

[Alan Sepinwall]

How many of them do you own?

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Oh, my God. I can probably pull some out, right? Look, I have. I have a Scribbly Mania notebook right here.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I knew you would. Yep, yep, yep.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

That's right. Wow.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Wow.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

To be read so thoroughly again.

[Alan Sepinwall]

We've known each other for a minute.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

For a minute. Yes. Okay. So, I mean, what do you feel like, you looking back at this? Does it feel like when we wash the suitcase, or does it feel like it's a little more tied to the rest of the show? Or. I mean.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I mean, the suitcase is tied to the rest of the show. I don't. Like you said at the beginning of this, like, if you've never seen the suitcase, watch the suitcase. And my reaction was no, if you've never watched the suitcase, watch Mad Men, like watch all of Mad Men because obviously you will get to appreciate like the, the acting clinic that Jon Hamm and Elizabeth Olsen. No, Elizabeth Moss as Peggy Olsen put on over the course of that hour. But you're not going to appreciate it because you don't have the context of their relationship over the course of four plus season seasons or three plus seasons. This. So I think you should go back and watch Mad Men. This definitely made me feel nostalgic for Lost. The problem with losses. It's a lot of episodes, some of which are great, some of which are not. And so I, maybe at some point it will make me want to go back and pick and choose through some of the highlights, I don't know. But I. This made me very happy. And I think it frankly works more as a self contained thing than the Suitcase does. Because the Desmond Penny relationship was a much more minor aspect of the show. And all you really need to get is like, he screwed it up with her. She's the love of his life. And then Sonja Walker when she turns up, like she sells the rest of it.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Yeah. She's so great in this episode. So great. Yeah.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Oh God, thank you. Thank you for wanting to talk about Love island so I would have the excuse to do this.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Yeah, I mean, it's still a toss up as I think as to which show is the greater TV accomplishment. But you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of opinions out there floating.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I will, I will have to do some research and get back to you. All right, Catherine, I ask you this every week. Was the TV good?

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Yeah, I think the TV was good. And I think the tv, Fingers Crossed, is going to continue to be good in the month of June with Love Island USA and presumably your beloved Knicks.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Go New York, go New York, go. Next week we will be talking about the vampire Lestat, formerly known as Interview with the Vampire, which is returning to amc. And we will be pairing that with another vampire show discussion, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the Season two Two Parter, Surprise and Innocence, which I was not allowed

[Katherine VanArendonk]

to watch when it was on at the time, even though I really wanted to. And so I get to continue my role of being able to be like, haha. Now it's my job.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Okay. I'm very happy for you. I have some spite behind my career as well. And we'll dig into all of that next week. Those are the 13th and 14th episodes of season two. If you want to catch up, they are on Hulu. You don't have to Unlike when I started this Lost segment without explaining what Lost was, we will give you full context, although the title tells you a lot of it already. She is Buffy and she slays vampires and I'm really looking forward to it.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

And as we mentioned at the top of the episode and also throughout the episode, and I will continue mentioning we have a pa. We have a Patreon. It is at tvisgoodpod we have this episode about the suitcase. We also have a little snippet of a piece of relevant TV coverage about the Hex finale that may be of

[Alan Sepinwall]

interest to you, and we'll be dropping that later this week. So if you're a Patreon subscriber, you will get that one. But generally the Patreon for now will be once a month.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

Yes, that is right. Okay, please remember to rate, review and subscribe. Also, you can join the Patreon for free and at least be no notified of when new episodes come out. And so that's another really good way just to stay connected to the show, even if which we completely understand, you are not at a place where you are able to support us with cold, hard American or frankly, international cash. Yes, we appreciate it, partly because it helps us beat the algorithm.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And we hate the algorithm. But you know what? We love tv.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

We need to give ourselves thanks to Joe Kennedy for our theme music, Kate Bergener for our artwork, and Riley Ralph, our editor, for editing.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Thank you for listening.

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[Alan Sepinwall]

acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

I'm Lara Marie Shainhals.

[Alan Sepinwall]

And I'm Terry o', Donnells, and together

[Katherine VanArendonk]

we are the hosts of Sexy Unique Podcast, a podcast for geniuses about reality tv, pop culture. And every once in a while, a tangent about 9 11.

[Alan Sepinwall]

I mean, it really affected all of us.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

On Sexy Unique Podcast, we insist on discussing the creme de la creme of reality television.

[Alan Sepinwall]

From the current season of Vanderpump Rules to tried and true classics like early seasons of Real Housewives of New Jersey to underrated gems like VH1's Rock of Love and even Gallery Girls, we're talking about all of it.

[Katherine VanArendonk]

So what are you waiting for? Listen to Sexy Unique Podcasts now on itunes, Spotify, and Wherever podcasts matter.

[Alan Sepinwall]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.