Podcast Summary: Twenty Thousand Hertz

Episode: "The Nursery Rhyme That Ruined a Rock Band"

Host: Dallas Taylor
Date: September 24, 2025

Overview

This episode of Twenty Thousand Hertz explores the fascinating and tragic story behind the legal battle over one of Australia’s most beloved rock anthems, “Down Under” by Men at Work, and its unexpected connection to the Australian nursery rhyme “Kookaburra Sits in the Old Gum Tree.” The episode dives into questions of musical originality, copyright law, cultural traditions, and the very real consequences—artistic, emotional, and financial—of this infamous copyright dispute.

The narrative unfolds through the lens of the Cautionary Tales podcast and its host, Tim Harford, examining not just the legal specifics but also the human fallout and broader implications for creative expression.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Inspiration vs. Infringement in Music

• Dallas Taylor sets the stage for a nuanced discussion about how all songs borrow from their predecessors, but where to draw the line is a contentious issue, often with severe consequences.

  “When it comes to music, originality is a tricky thing because every song that’s ever been written contains some elements of songs that came before it. So where do you draw the line between inspiration and infringement?” (01:21)

2. The TV Quiz that Sparked a Lawsuit

• In 2007, Australia’s Spics and Specs quiz show aired an episode asking which nursery rhyme inspired the flute riff in “Down Under.” On air, the connection to “Kookaburra Sits in the Old Gum Tree” was revealed (03:56).
• This revelation piqued the interest of Norm Lurie, managing director of Larrikin Music Publishing, who owned the rights to “Kookaburra.”

  “Someone watching Spicks and Specs that night was certainly intrigued by the exchange and quickly reached out to Norm Lurie… Did he know that Men at Work had used Kookaburra…?” (03:58)

3. Creation of "Down Under" and the Flute Hook

• The flute riff in "Down Under" was added by Greg Ham and intended to be an “Aussie cliché melody,” not an outright copy.

  “Greg Ham threw in a flute hook. Down Under was quintessentially Australian, and he wanted to add to the existing composition what he called an Aussie cliche melody.” (06:57)

4. History of "Kookaburra" and Its Composer

• Marian Sinclair wrote “Kookaburra Sits in the Old Gum Tree” in the 1930s for a Girl Guides competition. She was not interested in commercializing her song and regarded it as something that merely “came to me from above… I don’t own it.” (09:23)

5. Copyright and Legal Action

• After Sinclair's death, Larrikin Music acquired the rights. Following the revelation on TV, Larrikin sued Men at Work for 60% of “Down Under’s” profits, provoking intense distress, legal chaos, and personal tragedy for the band members.

  “Men at Work's flute maestro, Greg Hamm, took the news of the court case hard. I'm terribly disappointed that that's the way I'm going to be remembered… for copying something.” (12:58) “When I co Wrote Down Under back in 1978... I appropriated nothing from anyone else’s song. There was no Men at Work. There was no flute. Yet the song existed.” — Colin Hay (14:54)

6. The Court Case and Its Impact

• The court ultimately sided with Larrikin, awarding only 5% of post-2002 royalties, not the 60% sought.

  “It’s a big win for the underdog, said a lawyer when the judgment was finally read... Men At Work had lost.” (29:53) “They’d wanted 60% of all the profits... and the judge gave them 5%. And then only on money earned since 2002... It was deemed that a greater share would have been excessive, overreaching and unrealistic. It’s thought this 5% settlement amounted to only around $100,000. Both sides had spent millions in legal fees, so while Men At Work had lost the case, there were really no winners aside from the lawyers.” (33:57)

• The personal toll was immense: Greg Ham, wracked with guilt, struggled with addiction, and died after downsizing to pay for legal bills (30:53). Colin Hay found performing the song deeply upsetting, and friendships were damaged.

7. Wider Implications: Copyright’s Role and Reach

• Harford reflects on the trade-offs inherent in copyright law, how protections can favor corporations over creators, and how “insanely long” copyright terms (e.g., 70 years after the author’s death) may inhibit creativity.

  “If you make copyright protections very generous to creators, that makes them richer... But if copyright protections are too generous... they limit our ability to remix and adapt old ideas or just to enjoy them…” (19:03) “So why are copyright terms so insanely long? ...No, it’s all about corporate power.” (19:54)

• The episode compares the Men at Work case to other copyright controversies, such as the Beatles parody band, the Rutles, who were forced to share credits and royalties despite their tribute being playful parody (26:38).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Quoting Kookaburra in Down Under was a clever nod to Australian history and culture. It’s a repeated three second Easter egg that works well with the music and makes sense with the lyrics. But sadly, that’s not how these cases are judged.” — Dallas Taylor (29:38)
• “It’s people you love who you’re losing over litigation based on greed and opportunism.” — Colin Hay (32:20)
• “I haven’t spoken to Colin for ages. It all got weird between us. ...I’ll never hear it without knowing that I’ve got this awful connection to it.” — Adam Hills, host of Spics and Specs (33:53)

Important Timestamps

• 01:21 — Introduction of the episode’s core question: inspiration vs. infringement
• 03:56 — The quiz show moment that exposed the connection between “Down Under” and “Kookaburra”
• 06:57 — Origin of the iconic flute riff in “Down Under”
• 09:23 — Marion Sinclair and the creation of “Kookaburra”
• 14:54 — Colin Hay’s defense of his creative process
• 29:53 — Verdict against Men at Work
• 30:53 — Greg Ham’s personal struggles and death
• 33:53 — Adam Hills on the fallout with Colin Hay

Tone and Storytelling

The episode strikes a reflective, sometimes somber tone, balancing quirky musical trivia with the seriousness of legal and personal consequences. Drawing on archival quotes, interviews, and skillful narration, the podcast invites listeners to question the balance between protecting creative rights and fostering innovation and cultural exchange.

Final Reflection

Twenty Thousand Hertz concludes that copyright law, while meant to protect creators, can have unintended, sometimes devastating consequences—especially when corporate interests overtake the intentions of original artists. The “Down Under” saga is less a caution against copying than a call for more measured, humane, and culturally sensible copyright laws.

This episode’s story originally came from the Cautionary Tales podcast, written by Tim Harford and team.