The Sonic Brand Makeover We Didn’t Know We Needed

Summary

Twenty Thousand Hertz: The Sonic Brand Makeover We Didn’t Know We Needed

Host: Dallas Taylor
Episode Release Date: April 16, 2025
Podcast: Twenty Thousand Hertz
Episode Title: The Sonic Brand Makeover We Didn’t Know We Needed

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Twenty Thousand Hertz, host Dallas Taylor delves into the intricate world of sonic branding by exploring the journey of revamping the theme music for the popular podcast Switched On Pop. Through insightful discussions with key stakeholders and industry experts, the episode unpacks the challenges and creative processes involved in redefining a podcast's auditory identity.

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1. The Genesis of a Sonic Makeover

Timestamp: [00:01] – [02:21]

Dallas Taylor introduces the episode by reflecting on his own podcast's intro and expressing a desire to refresh its sound to mirror the collaborative spirit exhibited at the end of each episode. This introspection sets the stage for the main narrative: Switched On Pop's decision to overhaul its longstanding theme music.

Dallas Taylor [00:50]: "I wanted to start the show in the same way we end it with a small but mighty team passionately making something together."

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2. Sparking the Change: Conversation with Charlie Harding

Timestamp: [02:21] – [07:04]

Dallas introduces Charlie Harding from Switched On Pop, who shares the motivation behind changing the podcast’s theme song after 400 episodes. The original jingle, created hastily using GarageBand loops, no longer resonated with the show’s evolving identity.

Charlie Harding [03:18]: "I knew that we had our very first episode. We needed some kind of theme song, and I literally just dragged together a bunch of garage band loops."

A panel of critics, including Lauren Michelle Jackson and Kat Zhang, provide candid feedback, criticizing the original jingle for feeling dated and lacking sophistication.

Lauren Michelle Jackson [05:08]: "It's trying. Maybe a bit too hard, right? It's not cool. It's not cool enough."

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3. Seeking Expert Insight: Collaboration with Dallas Taylor

Timestamp: [15:08] – [17:09]

Realizing the need for professional input, Charlie reaches out to Dallas Taylor, a sound designer and owner of Defacto Sound. Dallas breaks down the components of sonic branding, distinguishing between elements like jingles, theme songs, and sonic logos.

Dallas Taylor [15:38]: "A jingle is a short piece of music that has lyrics in it... A Sonic Logo is something very short, like the Netflix thing."

He emphasizes the importance of retaining memorable elements while allowing room for evolution.

Dallas Taylor [16:59]: "My first instinct for anyone is, like, not to lose something that has existed for so long."

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4. Enlisting Musical Talent: Turning to Archiris

Timestamp: [17:09] – [21:44]

Charlie proposes hiring Zach Tenorio and Jossy Adams from the acclaimed band Archiris to spearhead the creation of a new theme. Their expertise promises a fresh yet coherent sound that honors the podcast’s legacy.

Charlie Harding [17:25]: "I want to hire an actual composer... Zach and Jossy of Archiris... to redo our theme music."

The collaboration aims to maintain the core melody while infusing timelessness and contemporary synthesizer elements.

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5. Crafting the New Theme: Iterative Feedback and Refinement

Timestamp: [27:04] – [38:35]

Zach and Jossy present multiple compositions inspired by classic and modern synth sounds. They experiment with different harmonies, rhythms, and vocal integrations to align with the brief of creating something both timeless and reflective of current pop music trends.

Nate Sloan [27:58]: "Those strings really fit our brief of something timeless. They sound kind of classic, but also totally contemporary."

As they iterate, feedback from critics like John Caramanica and Hrishikesh Hirway plays a crucial role in shaping the final product. Suggestions include incorporating a radio dial effect and ensuring the theme conveys the podcast’s essence without feeling overly commercial.

John Caramanica [07:13]: "What are you hoping to evoke emotionally but also kind of like philosophically in a listener who heard that?"

The team navigates these critiques, striving to balance innovation with familiarity, ultimately enhancing the theme's sophistication and appeal.

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6. Finalizing the Sonic Identity: A Seamless Blend

Timestamp: [38:35] – [43:42]

After numerous revisions and layering of instruments, vocals, and sound effects, the new theme emerges as a complex yet harmonious composition. With over 100 tracks, the theme embodies a rich tapestry of sounds that reflect the podcast’s dedication to music analysis and education.

Charlie Harding [35:00]: "And when we're done, audio bumper, we got a sonic identity."

The revamped theme receives positive feedback from early listeners and critics, praising its smoothness and blend of old and new elements.

Lauren Michelle Jackson [37:34]: "I love the revamp. It's smooth, very suave, while still retaining a bit of the old sound."

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7. Insights and Reflections: The Emotional Journey of Sonic Branding

Timestamp: [41:00] – [43:21]

Charlie reflects on the emotional and human aspects of creating a jingle, highlighting how sonic branding transcends mere technical composition to embody the creators' hopes and values.

Charlie Harding [41:24]: "It was the process of exploring these sounds that really made it all come together."

Nate emphasizes the profound impact of sonic elements on a podcast's identity, recognizing the delicate balance between creativity and consistency.

Nate Sloan [42:58]: "It’s actually very emotional, very human, very much about what our hopes and goals and ambitions and loves are."

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8. Conclusion: A Harmonious Success

Timestamp: [43:21] – [44:28]

With the new theme finalized, Switched On Pop now boasts a sonic identity that marries tradition with modernity, resonating more deeply with its audience. The episode concludes with an affirmation of the collaborative effort and the value of professional sonic branding in enhancing a podcast's presence.

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Key Takeaways

• Sonic Branding Complexity: Crafting a theme involves more than just selecting pleasing sounds; it requires aligning with the brand's identity and evolving with its growth.

• Importance of Feedback: Constructive criticism from diverse sources can significantly refine and enhance the creative process.

• Collaboration with Experts: Engaging with professional sound designers and composers can bridge the gap between creative vision and technical execution.

• Emotional Resonance: A successful sonic identity is one that emotionally connects with the audience while maintaining the brand's core essence.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Charlie Harding [04:24]: "I think one of the great challenges with changing any kind of identity is that there's all of this loaded nostalgia for the thing you already knew."

• John Caramanica [07:13]: "What were you hoping to evoke emotionally but also kind of like philosophically in a listener who heard that?"

• Nate Sloan [16:43]: "We need to keep it nice and quick, right?"

• Lauren Michelle Jackson [37:34]: "I love the revamp. It's smooth, very suave, while still retaining a bit of the old sound."

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This episode offers a compelling exploration of the nuanced process behind sonic branding, illustrating how thoughtful collaboration and responsive iteration can culminate in a resonant and effective auditory identity for a podcast.

Transcript

[Dallas Taylor]

Hey listeners, there's just a few weeks left to enter our Sound off short story competition. What we're looking for is fully produced sound related audio stories that are around five minutes or less. They could include interviews, narration, sound design, music, whatever helps tell the story. We'll count down the winning stories in a special episode this summer. The top creator will also get a private feedback session with our team, as well as $100 in credit to our online store. Submissions close on May 7th. For more info and to submit your story, visit 20k.org soundoff there's also a link in the Show Notes I've been making 20,000 hertz with the incredible team at my sound agency, Defacto sound, for 211 episodes and over eight and a half years. And in all that time, our introduction has always just been me saying this. You're listening to 20,000 hertz. I'm Dallas Taylor. If you've heard a few episodes, you might have picked up on a theme which is listening. I start our episodes with youh're listening to and I end them with thanks for listening. I also intentionally call you the audience listeners. Now, one of my favorite things happens at the end of every episode when you hear the voices of the people who made the show reading their own credits. But in the intro, it's always just me, and that started to feel off. So I wanted to start the show in the same way we end it with a small but mighty team passionately making something together. It reflects what this show has always been, a labor of love crafted by people who care deeply about sound. So today I'm excited to debut our brand new intro, which sounds like this. You're listening to 20,000 hertz. I'm Dallas Taylor. The idea to change our intro started with a conversation I had a few months ago with my friend Charlie Harding from Switched On Pop. He was thinking about refreshing their show's theme song after 400 episodes. And as you'll hear, it turned out to be a pretty epic endeavor. Here's Charlie Harding and Nate Sloan from Switched On Pop.

[Charlie Harding]

Nate, what do you think of when I play you this song, Switched On Pop?

[Nate Sloan]

You know the TV show from the 60s about the band the Monkees? Yeah, it had that theme song. Hey hey, we're the monkeys and people.

[Charlie Harding]

Say we monkey around.

[Nate Sloan]

Yeah, I never loved it, but. But I found it sort of comforting when it would come on. I feel like this is similar. I'm like, I don't know, it's not a great, masterful piece of music, but I've Kind of grown to love it over the years, I guess.

[Charlie Harding]

Thanks. Because I wrote it in an hour. I don't remember the moment exactly, but I knew that we had our very first episode. We needed some kind of theme song, and I literally just dragged together a bunch of garage band loops. I don't think there's an original piece of music in there. It's literally just a bunch of stuff that anybody has on an Apple computer.

[Nate Sloan]

We've recorded 400 episodes. I feel like every time you've cringed through our theme music, not to mention the emails we've gotten from people saying, what is with your theme music? Let's give yourself a little bit of credit, though. What are we hearing? We have this radio dial changing stations at the beginning. That's symbolic, right? That represents our willingness to listen across genre and style. Charlie. To find common musical material. That's beautiful.

[Charlie Harding]

Thank you.

[Nate Sloan]

Now, does anyone listen to the radio anymore? Perhaps a question worth asking.

[Charlie Harding]

I just feel like 400 episodes, 10 years of making this show. We need a change. And so today we're going to rewrite the theme and we're going to make it better, or at least we're going to make it different.

[Nate Sloan]

This is smart, Charles, because even if we end up with a theme song that still doesn't work, you will have let everyone in on the process, and they can see how hard you tried, if nothing else. And maybe when they listen, they'll listen with sympathetic ears because they know you did everything you could.

[Charlie Harding]

I appreciate it because I think one of the great challenges with changing any kind of identity is that there's all of this loaded nostalgia for the thing you already knew. And familiarity bias is real. In case you do feel particularly attached, I want to let you know I think you're wrong. And so do some of the best voices in the world of music.

[Lauren Michelle Jackson]

My name is Lauren Michelle Jackson. I am a professor of English at Northwestern University and a critic at the New Yorker.

[Charlie Harding]

Lauren is one of my favorite music writers. I literally teach her work in my classes, and when I played her the theme, this is what she said. Pop.

[Lauren Michelle Jackson]

Yeah, it's trying. Maybe a bit too hard, right? It's not cool. It's not cool enough.

[Charlie Harding]

Here's culture and music critic Kat Zhang of the Cut, formerly of Pitchfork.

[Lauren Michelle Jackson]

It sounds like game show music. It also sounds like it wouldn't even.

[Charlie Harding]

Make it to demo status if pitched.

[Lauren Michelle Jackson]

As a pop song.

[Charlie Harding]

Ian Fitchuk, currently nominated for a Grammy for producer of the year. It gives me the feeling of hearing one of my kids, like, least favorite Video game, maybe circa 2007 or eight from another room.

[Nate Sloan]

And just being like, oh, no, here we go again. This game. And it really just in no way.

[Charlie Harding]

Mirrors the legitimacy of this wonderful podcast. If we need podcast musical legitimacy. Well, I know just the person who knows a lot about great music and great podcasts.

[Hrishikesh Hirway]

I'm Hrishikesh your way. I. I'm a singer, songwriter, and the host of Song Exploder.

[Charlie Harding]

And when I played him the theme.

[Hrishikesh Hirway]

I mean, it's cute. I like it. Cause you made it. But if I didn't know that you made it, my eyebrows might have gone up a little. It makes me smile and it kind of makes me laugh, which, you know, some people might see that as a positive thing, but it might not be the feeling that you want from a listener.

[Charlie Harding]

That's very generous of you. I think I'm gonna get rid of the vocals. I think I'm just gonna go. Because that is kind of the melodic theme. Can I live with that?

[Hrishikesh Hirway]

I think you can. I think if you change the bass sound to make it slightly less. I think. I think that'd be good. But I think you should keep the vocals switched on.

[Lauren Michelle Jackson]

Pop.

[Hrishikesh Hirway]

Having the words in there, it does feel like an iconic part of the theme in my mind.

[Charlie Harding]

Okay, some useful feedback from friends of the podcast, but I feel like we could use some really unvarnished criticism.

[John Caramanica]

John Caramonica, host of popcast at the New York Times.

[Charlie Harding]

John doesn't hold back.

[John Caramanica]

All right. I can tell you have a fondness for the game shows of Eastern Europe. Look, what I want to say is that were you thinking of, like a breakfast cereal spinoff of the show to have that kind of sound? Like, is that where you were going with it? Were you thinking, like, this podcast thing? Unlikely to go. However, there's a packageables angle on the back end of this. Is that where you were?

[Charlie Harding]

I could have actually made some money if I did that.

[John Caramanica]

I am confident that if you went into an advertising or marketing meeting with that right now, you would walk out with an incredible job. Music supervising some of the worst serial commercials that you've ever heard. I'm gonna go journalistic on you for a second, please. What were you hoping to evoke emotionally but also kind of like philosophically in a listener who heard that? What did you want them to take away?

[Charlie Harding]

I wanted it to be a jingle that was diva esque, that would announce itself as being every kind of pop music. So it begins with a radio FM sweep that is completely anachronistic. It has a Sort of like trap orchestra, those big horns, trap sort of sounds. It's got some wub wub from the dub step. It's got a swung piano going bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. It's got a bunch of sound effects for sort of cinema stuff. Oh, it's got a funk ending, bass line. I wanted it to be maximalist, everything. And I wanted to say pop music. I'm not sure that that brief says pop music.

[John Caramanica]

Anyway, okay, so two notes, right? So number one, have you considered a radio dial with static in between so you are switched and then the on is on, like a country on. And then pop is maybe like a metal pop, you know, like, have you considered that as a way to communicate, to telegraph multiple genres? Number one or number two, you should have done something chaotic. Maybe you should have hand cut tape with one of those like hand splicers.

[Charlie Harding]

Just a thought. DIY it. I like it.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah. So those are my notes.

[Charlie Harding]

That's a great review. I appreciate it.

[John Caramanica]

You couldn't be more welcome.

[Nate Sloan]

Well, that was humbling.

[Charlie Harding]

Totally. It's really unfortunate too, because this is the only original piece of music in the theme. I found someone on Craigslist to sing harmonies. Yeah, we've never spoken, never met, just traded some files.

[Lauren Michelle Jackson]

Hello.

[Charlie Harding]

So nice to meet you. Hi, I'm Charlie.

[Lauren Michelle Jackson]

It's so nice to meet you.

[Charlie Harding]

This is the singer, Maria Z. I found my email exchange with her from 10 years ago and I reached out to see if she remembered how we first connected to make this theme.

[Lauren Michelle Jackson]

Was it Craigslist?

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah. So in 2014, I made a theme song out of GarageBand Loops and I thought we should have someone sing over this. I don't really remember writing that Craigslist ad, but I was like, I gotta find someone to sing. You wrote me. Hi there. I'm interested in helping with your jingle. I have a great home setup and could record and send everything back on Sunday. I have a big range and can sing with a lighter or heavier, funkier soulful tone. Whatever you need for the diva role.

[Lauren Michelle Jackson]

Listen, when I see the word diva, it is on and popping. I'm like, I'm there.

[Charlie Harding]

Do you have any recollection of doing that recording?

[Lauren Michelle Jackson]

I actually do. I mean, it's a little hazy. I don't remember the melody. You're going to have to play it for me.

[Charlie Harding]

Obviously I can do that. Here, let me play it for you a second. Switched on pop. No way.

[Lauren Michelle Jackson]

That is hilarious. I sound so young. Oh, Sweepstown. That was a lot shorter than I remember though.

[Charlie Harding]

So do you Know anything about this podcast that you've contributed to?

[Lauren Michelle Jackson]

Short answer. No. I think I work on so many things that I often forget what I'm part of. But I did check out recently since we reconnected, and I took a look at what you've been doing, and it's amazing. It's awesome.

[Charlie Harding]

How many pieces out in the world would you say have your voice on it right now?

[Lauren Michelle Jackson]

Oh, my God. Over a thousand projects. Like 2000 something crazy.

[Charlie Harding]

What's the biggest job you've done where people might have heard your voice?

[Lauren Michelle Jackson]

I recently had a song placed on Movie Spirited. It was Santa, baby.

[Nate Sloan]

Yeah.

[Charlie Harding]

Me too. Whoa. I'm so thankful to get to connect. It's so funny that we probably lived just a few miles from each other for 10 years and have been, in this very roundabout way, a part of each other's lives. Your voice has been heard by, like, many millions of people at the introduction of our show. I think you nailed it. I asked for a diva vocal and you delivered.

[Lauren Michelle Jackson]

I delivered.

[Charlie Harding]

Okay. Thank you, Maria.

[Lauren Michelle Jackson]

Thank you so much for including me.

[Nate Sloan]

She crushed it, by the way. Yeah, she's arguably the best part of this intro. Sorry, Charles.

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah, totally. Hopefully we can find some kind of way to keep part of her vocals in our rewrite. But it's pretty clear from all the feedback that we've received that it's past time that we need to refresh our our jingle. And Nate, I don't know if you remember, but I've actually tried to rewrite this theme song, like, a couple of times, and every single time, you're like, nah, that's not it.

[Nate Sloan]

It's my fault. I'm sorry. I have taste.

[Charlie Harding]

Here, let me play a few. Switched on pop. That was me just trying to get rid of using loops and make everything by hand back in 2019. You rejected it.

[Nate Sloan]

And I still do in 2021.

[Charlie Harding]

I tried this. You said no.

[Nate Sloan]

I said, that's daft junk right there.

[Charlie Harding]

After you said no. In 2021, I tried again.

[Lauren Michelle Jackson]

Switched on up.

[Nate Sloan]

That sounds like the intro to a Nickelodeon show from the 90s.

[Charlie Harding]

Oh, my gosh. It is like a bad Rugrats spin off or something. Despite all of your rejections, there have been a couple of alterations to the theme over the years. Like in our anthems series.

[Nate Sloan]

You know what? That slaps. But not an everyday theme song.

[Charlie Harding]

Also not an everyday theme. Are Beethoven miniseries.

[Nate Sloan]

Pretty sick, Very Sturman Drung.

[Charlie Harding]

And then a bunch of times I've just tried to get moody with it.

[Nate Sloan]

You were deep in your feelings.

[Charlie Harding]

Admittedly, it was like deep pandemic when I wrote those three. Yeah, I could tell it was not good times.

[Nate Sloan]

So year after year, you found ways to fail. Sorry, I'm kicking you when you're down.

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah.

[Nate Sloan]

What makes you think this time will be different, Charlie?

[Charlie Harding]

Well, I realize I am way too close to this original theme, and I thought that maybe if we could get another perspective, that would help. And so I called up an expert on sound design to help me think about how to go about rebranding our show.

[Dallas Taylor]

I'm Dallas Taylor, and I'm a sound designer and own a company called Defacto Sound, and I also host a podcast.

About sound called 20,000 Hz.

[Charlie Harding]

Dallas will help an organization craft their Sonic identity, and so I asked him to break down the various aspects of Sonic branding and what we should be considering.

[Dallas Taylor]

So there's a bunch of different things that all branch underneath the global title of Sonic branding. So that can be something like a jingle. I think of a jingle as a short piece of music that has lyrics in it. Like, nationwide is on your side.

Or 800-588-2300.

[Nate Sloan]

Today.

[Dallas Taylor]

There's the theme song. You know, we're thinking about, like the Friends theme song, no one told you.

[Zach Tenorio]

That was gonna be this way, where.

[Dallas Taylor]

It'S like a whole piece of music that. That's really designed to give you the time to transition into this world. I think of things like Sonic Logo as something that's very short, you know, like a. Like the Netflix thing. And then, you know, you also have other elements that could be considered under this kind of Sonic branding idea, like an audio tag that could be something that is either happening at the very end, like the intel chimes. Those are the main things that I think of under that Sonic branding. And it's interesting because when you reached out about the switched on pop jingle, I would say it's kind of like between a jingle and a theme song. It does have, like, a lot of memorability to it. So my first instinct for anyone is, like, not to lose something that has.

Existed for so long.

That would be my gut of the direction to go. Probably less change than you want to make, but enough that you feel satisfied in it.

[Charlie Harding]

Okay. So per Dallas, I feel like we need to rewrite our jingle, make a longer theme that we could use for our credits, and have some kind of audio tag that we could put at the beginning and end of the show if we need it. But since I have failed so miserably trying to rewrite the theme so many times, here's what I want to propose. I want to hire an actual composer.

[Nate Sloan]

Wise Hans Zimmer.

[Charlie Harding]

I emailed. Not available. I'm not joking. I really did email.

[Nate Sloan]

Good for you.

[Charlie Harding]

I also want to keep it about friendship. You know, I feel like this is fundamentally about us hanging out and our relationship to music together. That's how it all began. So I want to keep it humble. We don't need Hans. I want to talk to our friend Zach Tenorio, who has played on the show a couple of times. People hear his music every single time we play the ad break. That's him on the synthesizer. This year, Zach is nominated for a Grammy for his arranging on Willow's new record. So not just a friend, but acclaimed musician. Zach has been an old pal. He's in the band Arch Iris with our other friend, Jossy Adams, who's also an amazing composer. Also going to help out in this project. I thought we would hire them to redo our theme music, and I feel like we need to give them some parameters. So I'm just curious, like, what are the things that matter to you that we can give them in a brief?

[Nate Sloan]

Okay. Well, one of my issues with our old theme music is I feel like it's a little long.

[Charlie Harding]

Way too long.

[Nate Sloan]

So I feel like one thing. Let's keep it nice and quick, right?

[Charlie Harding]

I feel like I want to have some continuity. Like, we do have a core melody. Like, I feel like that that is a sonic identity that I don't really want to lose.

[Nate Sloan]

I would love to have some textures that feel more reflective of what pop music sounds like in 2025.

[Charlie Harding]

Well, I kind of want to keep doing the show for, like, another 10 years with you. And I got it so wrong in 2014. Maybe we could say a little bit more timeless.

[Nate Sloan]

That works for me. Timeless.

[Charlie Harding]

I feel like we should also honor the Switched On Ness of our show.

[Nate Sloan]

Ah, the Wendy Carlos of it all.

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah, exactly. We need some synthesizers.

[Nate Sloan]

Yeah.

[Charlie Harding]

I mean, after all, Wendy Carlos's Switched On Bach is our namesake. It's the most successful classical record. It legitimized the synthesizer. I feel like we have to include that. Anything else?

[Nate Sloan]

Do we want a vocal again? Do we need to say Switched On Pop? Is it instrumental? What's your take there, Charles?

[Charlie Harding]

Reach says we need the vocal. I think we gotta keep a vocal of some kind. There's gotta be a voice.

[Nate Sloan]

Okay. So short, timeless, synthesized, but also continuing our original in some way.

[Charlie Harding]

Okay, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna call up Zach and Jossi from Archiris. And let's see what they say. Oh, my goodness, can you take a step?

[Zach Tenorio]

Can you come?

[Charlie Harding]

That is amazing.

[Zach Tenorio]

We're a happy family.

[Charlie Harding]

Oh, it's so good to see you all.

[Zach Tenorio]

It's good to see you too.

[Charlie Harding]

Zach and Jossi were hanging out with their one year old baby, who took a few steps on FaceTime for me. Very cute.

[Zach Tenorio]

Do you want to talk vision? Yeah.

[Charlie Harding]

Let's talk about music. I don't want to rewrite this thing from scratch. I think we got to keep the core composition. I don't think that the sounds are important. I think what's important is a musical gesture, like a bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. That is the theme. And so I want to keep that. I want it to be a little bit more timeless and not trying to match the trends of any musical era. I would like it to be more idiosyncratic to us. I would like to have something that I play and I want to make sure Nate plays something because we are tied to Wendy Carlos. It must be synthesizers.

[Zach Tenorio]

I love that. And that actually, I feel like as a palette to me, those sounds that Wendy Carlos was making back then sound timeless. They sound timeless and they happen through every decade of pop music. It sounds like a fun challenge. Are the vocals going?

[Charlie Harding]

It could be like vocoder. It could be some, like some way of using the voice.

[Zach Tenorio]

So it's basically, it's just like sound switched on pop music. Right. And then a minute of music. It definitely seems fun.

[Charlie Harding]

All right, thanks for thinking this through.

[Zach Tenorio]

All right.

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah. All right. Love y'all. Bye. So I sent Zach and Jossy off for that brief, and when we come back, we'll hear what they came up with.

[Dallas Taylor]

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[Charlie Harding]

Okay. Hey, can you hear me?

[Nate Sloan]

Yeah.

[Charlie Harding]

All right, where are you?

[Nate Sloan]

Outside the library.

[Charlie Harding]

Okay, so Zach sent me a little audio clip and some inspirational music that I wanted to get your feedback on.

[Nate Sloan]

Okay.

[Charlie Harding]

So I gave him our brief of, like, shorter, some vogue synthesizers, and he sent back these songs as ideas. First is the song Kid A. Off of the record. Kid A.

[Nate Sloan]

I like it. It's a little avant garde, a little out there.

[Charlie Harding]

Okay.

[Nate Sloan]

But, you know, so is some of our analysis. So that seems appropriate.

[Charlie Harding]

Okay. The second song that he was interested in was Yesterday by no Name, specifically the string synths.

[Nate Sloan]

Those strings really fit our brief of something timeless. They sound kind of classic, but also totally contemporary. I like it.

[Charlie Harding]

Okay, cool. The last piece that he sent was Mort Garson's Ode to an African Violet.

[Nate Sloan]

Plantasia Baby, you know, we asked for synthesizers. This is like a classic synth sound that I would be honored to have as part of our theme music.

[Charlie Harding]

Okay. So that's the sound palette that he wanted to work with, with. And he was fiddling around after chatting with him yesterday, this is the idea, like, rough sort of demo. Is he going in the right direction?

[Nate Sloan]

I think it's definitely the right direction.

[Charlie Harding]

Oh, great.

[Nate Sloan]

Now, one thing I'm realizing I'm missing is the delineation between the two themes within that short melody. I feel like it's always been sort of question and answer switched on pop. Like, can we still have that sort of back and forth element by changing the timbre or the harmony somehow?

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah, I like the call and response.

[Nate Sloan]

That's the only thing that comes to mind.

[Charlie Harding]

Okay, cool. There's a couple things that I wanted to get your feedback on. One was maybe evolving the harmony a little bit. So, like, right now the whole thing is very simple. It's just in the key of C. It goes C, B flat, C, switch, Don Pop, which is very, like, medieval. Well, we could do different chords. Like, we could reharm it and so, like, one option was to go, like, E flat, B flat, C. Switch, Don. Pop. Or you could do, like, the upward approach. A flat, B flat, C. Switched on. Pop.

[Nate Sloan]

I'm probably more partial to the ascending approach. Reminiscent of the final cadence of Whitney Houston's 1991 Super bowl performance of the National Anthem.

[Charlie Harding]

Which I. I think it's inspired by Jimi Hendrix's performance of the National Anthem, which does the same thing, but many years earlier.

[Nate Sloan]

I mean, we are an anthemic podcast, so.

[Charlie Harding]

Okay, so let's do the A flat.

[Nate Sloan]

B flat, C. Yeah, yeah, that's the one.

[Charlie Harding]

Okay. And then I was thinking that we could play with the rhythm a little bit instead of doing the like, which is very bluesy. Maybe make it a little more syncopated and then slow it down.

[Nate Sloan]

Nope, don't like it.

[Charlie Harding]

You don't like it?

[Nate Sloan]

No. I think if we change that, it becomes sort of unrecognizable, and. I don't know. I don't know. It's. Something about that syncopation isn't working for me.

[Charlie Harding]

You don't want to evolve and grow and change.

[Nate Sloan]

Okay, okay, fair. Fair point. Charlie.

[Charlie Harding]

If you don't like it, we don't gotta do it.

[Nate Sloan]

I actually like the tail of it. Da, da da. I feel like that has a nice sort of finality to it. Whereas if we draw it out, then it just feels kind of. Kind of draggy to me.

[Charlie Harding]

Okay, well, it's not drag. This is all about getting to the point. Few other notes I have. I think it'd be really fun if we had Zach, like, have one moment where you play something. One moment where I play something. You know, just like, to make it a little more personal.

[Nate Sloan]

Yeah. We should have our fingerprints on this thing.

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah. I'll play, like, mandolin or guitar. You'll play some kind of keys.

[Nate Sloan]

Let's do it.

[Charlie Harding]

Okay. I think I want to hear some vocals.

[Nate Sloan]

Yeah. We're a show about pop music, and with some exceptions, it's a vocal art form. So I feel like we need some vocals in there.

[Charlie Harding]

Okay. So we've got the right direction.

[Nate Sloan]

Sounds like a plan.

[Charlie Harding]

Okay.

[Nate Sloan]

Can I go back to work now?

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah, I'll call Zach.

[Nate Sloan]

Right on.

[Charlie Harding]

Cool. All right. Thank you, Nate.

[Nate Sloan]

You gotta check.

[Charlie Harding]

Zach. We love it.

[Zach Tenorio]

You love it.

[Charlie Harding]

I played Nate the audio samples. He digs them. Loves the direction that we're going in. And we have a few notes, because that's how this works, right?

[Zach Tenorio]

Yes, of course.

[Charlie Harding]

One of the things that works about the current theme, making them feel a little bit more Call and response. Y would be fun if we got Nate and me in there, right? You do want to put vocals back in.

[Zach Tenorio]

Okay, so the reharm is good. I'm not changing any of the harmony right now. Like you're happy with that, I think.

[Charlie Harding]

Are you doing the reharm in the current version that you just sent me?

[Zach Tenorio]

I am doing the reharm.

[Nate Sloan]

Yeah.

[Zach Tenorio]

Goes to A flat, B flat, C. And then. Then during the lick, I kind of modulate to the four chord.

[Charlie Harding]

Oh, I like that.

[Zach Tenorio]

Yeah, it feels new in a cool way to me. It's like, resolved, but not like 100% resolved, if you know what I mean.

[Charlie Harding]

I actually hadn't realized that the opening chord, that is an ab. Let me hear that one.

[Zach Tenorio]

The first one is A flat. Yeah, A flat, B flat, C. That's funny.

[Charlie Harding]

I had heard it as if you were doing the C. B flat C, the original. Because it's so ingrained in my head.

[Zach Tenorio]

Yeah, that's. I mean, that makes sense.

[Charlie Harding]

And also, you just did it so subtly, I didn't even notice that you had done it, which is perfect.

[Zach Tenorio]

Okay, cool.

[Charlie Harding]

Awesome. Thanks, Zach.

[Zach Tenorio]

Yeah, of course, Daxin.

[Charlie Harding]

Okay, well, in the last couple of days since we caught up, I ran our feedback by Zach. He loved it. I gave you homework.

[Nate Sloan]

You wanted me to play the last tag of the theme on. Let's see. Irish penny whistle, five string banjo, and grand pian. Charlie, for whatever reason, I only pick the most annoying instruments to learn. It's something deeply wrong with me.

[Charlie Harding]

Thank goodness that you can play the piano.

[Nate Sloan]

I know, I know. It's my saving grace.

[Charlie Harding]

And so I was like, what on earth am I gonna do with this? The goal was to add some personality and texture to the synthesizers that Zach and Jossy had given us. As a reminder, this is where they left us off.

[Nate Sloan]

Yeah.

[Charlie Harding]

And of course, everyone thought, what that needs is some banjo, some pen whistle, and some additional piano. So this is what I did with your material.

[Nate Sloan]

That's pretty money. Yeah. Little Easter egg for the heads.

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah. And when you layer it in.

[Nate Sloan]

Shockingly euphonious.

[Charlie Harding]

Okay, so your little banjo flute, piano thing completes the second half of the theme. And I layered together a bunch of guitars for the first half of the theme. I wanted to complement the sort of funkiness of the synthesizers, but then layer it with some distortion.

[Nate Sloan]

Yeah. A little Van Halen in there.

[Charlie Harding]

And this is what it sounds like with the synths.

[Nate Sloan]

Love it.

[Charlie Harding]

But I also asked Zach and Jossy to, of course, include some vocals. And so we've got Zach on vocoder, Jossy on lead vocals, and I even buried a little bit of the original vocals that I did as a demo. I'm not going to isolate those. And I also included some of Maria's original harmonies. Switch on pop. Okay. And then the last thing is we asked for some sound effects that would swoop in and out. John Carmonica said that we needed some tape sound effects, so I made sure to get some tape splicing in here.

[Nate Sloan]

Wow.

[Charlie Harding]

And the final theme all together sounds like.

[Nate Sloan]

Okay, that's sick. I love it. I love it. How many tracks is this thing we are currently at?

[Charlie Harding]

Let's see. We're talking 102 tracks.

[Nate Sloan]

That is absurd. That's more than like Nicki Minaj's Starships. Starships. What is going on? How do. How does a six second jiggle have 102 tracks?

[Charlie Harding]

Because there's so many layers of synthesizers. I mean, my guitar tracks alone are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14. 16 tracks of guitars. Your banjos, flutes, and pianos are all layered twice. All the vocals are stacked like 12 times. The vocoder is stacked multiple times. There's just like endless layers that are all just like gently supporting each other.

[Nate Sloan]

Okay. 102 tracks, 12 critics, five composers. Have we nailed this thing? Have we threaded this needle? Have we corrected a decade of offensive theme music?

[Charlie Harding]

Well, I played it for some of our earlier critics, and here's what they had to say.

[Lauren Michelle Jackson]

I love the revamp. It's smooth, very suave, while still retaining a bit of the. Of the old sound.

[Charlie Harding]

So love it.

[Nate Sloan]

Much better.

[Charlie Harding]

It sounds like the cool upgraded theme to, like a Bill Nye the Science Guy type show, which is not off.

[Nate Sloan]

Bill Nye the Science Guy.

[John Caramanica]

Bill Nye the Science.

[Hrishikesh Hirway]

Charlie, I think this sounds great. Kind of reminds me of the theme song from 3, 2, 1, Contact, which I love. So, yeah, thumbs up from me.

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah.

[John Caramanica]

This sounds to me like what a movie in, like 1983 would have imagined that an answering machine outgoing message would have sounded like in 2050.

[Nate Sloan]

Please leave a message for switched on pop after the tone.

[Charlie Harding]

So between 3, 2, 1, contact. Bill Nye the Science Guy and the futuristic answering machine. I realized that our brief that included heavy amounts of synthesizer makes the whole thing lean towards, like, PBS soundtrack music.

[Nate Sloan]

A PBS science after school program. Oh, my goodness.

[Charlie Harding]

Which is that not appropriate for what we're doing? A reading rainbow.

[Nate Sloan]

A reading rainbow. I mean, it's probably so subconsciously buried in our synapses that it was Only a matter of time before these sounds came out. Who wouldn't aspire to bring the. The mix of entertainment and edification that Bill Nye has provided over the years? That's the greatest compliment you could ever get.

[Charlie Harding]

I know. I'm pleased.

[Nate Sloan]

The Bill Nye of pop music analysis.

[Charlie Harding]

But wait, there's more, Nate.

[Nate Sloan]

Oh, God. More tracks.

[Charlie Harding]

You know, I spoke with Dallas from 20,000 hertz, and he told us that a podcast doesn't just need a little jingle. It needs a sonic identity. And so I was thinking, how could we extract a little bumper sound effect that would play at the beginning and end of our show or whenever we needed it? And I think Zach gave us the perfect material. It's right at the very beginning.

[Nate Sloan]

I love that.

[Charlie Harding]

Isn't that cool?

[Nate Sloan]

It's epic.

[Charlie Harding]

The only thing is, I feel like it's a little too long. Like I want something super short. So. So over too many hours, I toyed with these sounds, which are comprised of a tape stop, a record drop, a cassette tape, a tiny bit of radio static from our original jingle, and just the shortest blip of that synthesizer. And this is what I came up with. That's going in. And when we're done, audio bumper, we got a sonic identity. I don't know if it's dun and I like it.

[Nate Sloan]

Let me hear it one more time. It's close. It's close. I think we might have to take that one to the woodshed for a sec, but I like where we're going with it. Okay, Charlie, you're not a sound designer.

[Dallas Taylor]

No.

[Nate Sloan]

You're a songwriter. You're not a composer of soundtracks and scores. This is new terrain.

[Charlie Harding]

Forget a little.

[Nate Sloan]

Okay, sorry. Okay, let me start over. Charlie, you're an accomplished composer who has worked in many different fields in media, but as far as I know, you've never. Besides our own earlier jingle, you've never composed a sting like this before. What'd you learn through this process?

[Charlie Harding]

Well, first of all, these are the kind of things that people don't have opinions about until you ask them. And so everybody listening right now is going to have all of a sudden a very strong opinion about something which is completely irrelevant they would have otherwise never paid attention to. Yeah, but that includes myself. I really thought a lot about what do we want to sound like? And it was the process of exploring these sounds that really made it all come together. Like, I knew we wanted to maintain some consistency in our sound identity, and so we couldn't throw out the jingle completely. Yeah, I wanted to lean More into something which is honest to ourselves, which I think is that synthesized switched on sound with us playing our instruments in there, including our goofiest instruments. And then when I finally shared this thing back and got all this feedback of, like, it's giving pbs, I was like, perfect. Yeah, that's actually where I do want to be. Like, my dream is probably to have a music education show on pbs. And so in that way, I think it's been a success going through this process and uncovering these.

[Nate Sloan]

Yeah, yeah. That's something I would not have anticipated at the start of this process. I would think of making a jingle as a purely kind of calculating and almost scientific process. Yeah, no, but it's actually very emotional, very human, very much about what our hopes and goals and ambitions and loves are. Then how to fit that into five seconds of sonic material is a fascinating challenge. So every time I listen to a podcast or.

[Charlie Harding]

Or any.

[Nate Sloan]

Or any show, really, I'm going to be thinking about, like, okay, so what is this jingle trying to tell me? What does it tell me about the people who made it and the values of this particular piece of media? And hopefully a bop as well. Hopefully we've created, you know, at least a top 40 Billboard hit, if not Hot 100.

[Charlie Harding]

Well, on that note, I said that I would get you a jingle. I said that I'd get you a little sonic logo or tag or bumper, whatever you want to call that little thing is. But I also said I'd get you a song. And Zach and Jossy of Archiris have delivered. They've given us credits. Music.

[Nate Sloan]

This is epic. This is like what they play before you're about to watch a light show at the planetarium or something. It's so fun.

[Dallas Taylor]

That story came from Switched On Pop, a podcast about the making and meaning of popular music. Each week, Charlie and Nate pull back the curtain on how pop hits work magic on our ears and our culture. In recent episodes, they've explored how Rihanna's hit Umbrella transformed how pop music was made and how Spotify's algorithms dictate the soundtrack to our lives. Follow Switched On Pop right here in your podcast player. 20,000 Hz is produced out of my sound agency, Defacto Sound. To hear more, follow Defacto Sound on instagram or visit defactosound.comswitch.

[Charlie Harding]

Pop is produced by Rana Cruz, edited by Art Chung, Engineered by Brandon McFarlane. Illustrations by Iris Gottlieb. Music by Zack Tanorio and Jossy Adams of Arkiris. We're a member of the Vox Media Podcast Network and a production of Vulture, which is part of New York Magazine. You can [e-mail] pod additional material for.

[Dallas Taylor]

This episode was written by Casey Emerling with help from Grace East. It was sound designed and mixed by Graham Gold. I'm Dallas Taylor. Thanks for listening. A few reminders. First, remember that you can support us by supporting our sponsors. The more engagement these companies get from our listeners, the more likely they are to book with us in the future, which is what allows us to keep telling these stories. With that in mind, simplify your business systems with NetSuite at netsuite.com 20k get your job. Post more visibility with Indeed at Indeed.com Hertz Maximize your sales with Shopify at shopify.com 20k finally, if you have any interest in audio storytelling, then I highly encourage you to enter our Soundoff Story competition. You can find the full details and submit your [e-mail] Soundoff submissions close on May 7th. I can't wait to hear what you come up with.