Episode 321 - The Ouija Board Murder of Clothilde Marchand

Summary

Two Girls One Ghost: Episode 321 - The Ouija Board Murder of Clothilde Marchand

Hosts: Corinne Vien and Sabrina Deana-Roga
Release Date: May 11, 2025
Podcast Description: Two Girls One Ghost delves into the supernatural with meticulously researched and listener-submitted tales. In this episode, Corinne and Sabrina unravel the chilling true story of the Ouija Board Murder of Clothilde Marchand, set against the backdrop of 1930s Buffalo, New York.

---

1. Introduction to the Story

Timestamp: [02:40]

Corinne opens the episode with an intriguing premise: "Today we are going to travel back in time to 1930s Buffalo, New York, where the infamous Ouija board murder took place." She teases listeners with the promise of a story rich in supernatural elements, betrayal, and tragedy, emphasizing that the true horror lies in human actions rather than the paranormal.

---

2. Historical and Social Context

Timestamp: [05:03 - 07:34]

Corinne sets the stage by describing Buffalo in the 1930s—a city grappling with the Great Depression. The population was a melting pot of immigrants from Ireland, Germany, Italy, and Poland seeking prosperity. Concurrently, the Seneca Nation faced systemic dismantling due to colonization and broken treaties. The Seneca, known as the "keepers of the western door," were being marginalized, a theme that becomes pivotal in the unfolding story.

---

3. Introducing Key Characters

Timestamp: [07:35 - 09:44]

• Nancy Bowen: A 66-year-old Seneca healer and herbalist, respected in her community. Nancy's marriage to Charlie Bowen, a man nicknamed "Sassafras" for his herbal trades, exemplified a harmonious blend of indigenous and urban cultures.

• Lila Jimerson: A 45-year-old schoolteacher educated in white schools, leading a dual cultural life between the reservation and the city. Lila is deeply involved with Henri Marchand, Clotilde's husband.

• Charlie Bowen: Nancy's husband, whose sudden death in 1929 becomes the catalyst for the ensuing drama.

• Clotilde Marchand: A French immigrant and wife of Henri Marchand, portrayed initially as a victim but later unveiled as a central antagonist.

---

4. The Ouija Board Sessions and Revelation

Timestamp: [10:50 - 14:27]

Grieving the unexpected death of her husband, Nancy turns to Lila for spiritual guidance. Despite traditional Seneca practices not involving Ouija boards, the popularity of these boards in the 1930s influences their decision to use one. During a seance, Nancy pleads for her husband's presence, leading to alarming messages: "B E Y O N D beyond," followed by "T H E Y K I L L E D M E" ([16:10]).

Sabrina remarks, "Oh, my God. Nancy could not believe it," highlighting the shock and fear induced by the Ouija board's messages. Nancy deduces that her husband was murdered, not by natural causes, and that the perpetrator is a woman named Clotilde who resides on Riley Street in Buffalo ([17:17]).

---

5. Confrontation and Murder

Timestamp: [24:44 - 28:34]

Fueled by the Ouija board's revelation and a corroborating letter from a Mrs. Dooley accusing Clotilde of witchcraft and jealousy-driven murder, Nancy decides to confront Clotilde. On March 6, 1930, armed with a hammer, Nancy approaches Clotilde at 576 Riley Street. The confrontation escalates tragically: "Nancy then chloroformed Clotilde Marchand and beat her to death with the hammer" ([28:12]).

---

6. Arrests and Legal Proceedings

Timestamp: [28:34 - 37:20]

Both Nancy and Lila are arrested for the murder. During the trial, it emerges that Lila exploited Nancy's grief to execute her own vendetta against Clotilde. Lila, romantically involved with Henri Marchand, used Nancy's spiritual vulnerability to manipulate her into committing murder. Henri, portrayed as a manipulative and unethical artist, emerges as a significant yet initially overlooked figure in the case.

Corinne notes, "Justice was not served," as Nancy is sentenced to time served and released, while Lila is acquitted due to insufficient evidence of direct involvement ([35:12]).

---

7. Media Sensationalism and Cultural Stereotyping

Timestamp: [37:03 - 43:18]

The media sensationalizes the case, focusing on the Ouija board and witchcraft, thus reinforcing negative stereotypes about Native women and the Seneca tribe. Headlines like "Pagan rites of 500 years ago still Practiced" and "Indian Models Trial for Witch Murder" reveal the pervasive bias and lack of empathy towards indigenous communities. Corinne emphasizes, "The real horror was not supernatural. It was human. Specifically, it was man."

---

8. Henri Marchand’s Exploitation and Downfall

Timestamp: [37:20 - 39:48]

Henri Marchand, Clotilde's husband, is revealed as a sexual predator who manipulated and exploited Native American women, including Lila. His unethical relationships and lack of accountability further compound the tragedy. Corinne expresses disdain, stating, "He was never prosecuted and lived a secluded, quiet life with his child bride until he died in 1952."

---

9. Aftermath and Legacy

Timestamp: [40:56 - 43:18]

Artist Marie Watt revisits Nancy Bowen's story through a poignant art project, placing Nancy’s narrative within the broader context of systemic racism and trauma. This modern reflection honors both Clotilde Marchand and Nancy Bowen as victims, advocating for a reevaluation of historical injustices and the portrayal of marginalized communities.

---

10. Reflections on Spiritual Manipulation

Timestamp: [44:54 - 48:44]

Corinne and Sabrina discuss the darker side of spiritual practices, highlighting how individuals like Lila manipulated spiritual communication for personal gain, leading to tragic outcomes. They caution listeners about the prevalence of fraudulent psychics and mediums who exploit vulnerable individuals, urging due diligence and skepticism when seeking spiritual guidance.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Corinne: "This is Two Girls One Ghost. And we are your ghostesses." ([03:08])

• Sabrina: "And this is very appropriate is a tombstone that says, here lies my last fuck." ([03:13])

• Corinne: "The Ouija board murder is no exception." ([07:36])

• Corinne: "Nancy Bowen was taken into custody and questioned, where she immediately confessed to the murder." ([28:10])

• Corinne: "The real horror was not supernatural. It was human. Specifically, it was man." ([37:22])

• Sabrina: "Men are bad. It's just like the same type of guy exists in every single generation." ([32:52])

• Corinne: "Witchcraft didn't work so good, so she, Clotilde, decided to kill Charlie." ([20:58])

• Corinne: "No, you have to kill her herself." ([28:19])

---

Conclusion

In this deeply engaging episode, Corinne and Sabrina unravel a complex tale where grief, manipulation, and cultural prejudices intertwine, leading to a tragic murder that echoes beyond its time. By shedding light on hidden injustices and the exploitation of spiritual practices, Two Girls One Ghost not only entertains but also provokes critical reflection on historical narratives and the enduring impact of systemic biases.

---

Disclaimer: This summary captures the essence of Episode 321 - The Ouija Board Murder of Clothilde Marchand while omitting non-content sections such as advertisements and promotional segments.

Transcript

[Corinne]

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[Sabrina]

This episode is.

[Corinne]

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[Sabrina]

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[Corinne]

Very spooky. We finally have microphone stands.

[Sabrina]

What do I do with my hands?

[Corinne]

Dance. Jazz fingers.

[Sabrina]

My right arm. There goes my bicep on the one side.

[Corinne]

Shoot. Rip. Biceps.

[Sabrina]

I'm already moving the mic.

[Corinne]

We also added some lights. We moved around. I will say Corinne moved things around. So you still have biceps from the heavy lifting.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. And the mic stands. Honestly, these microphones, for anyone who's never held one of these microphones, they're freaking heavy. And so it's hard to find a mic stand to hold them. We've actually gone through a lot of.

[Corinne]

Mic stands that we have.

[Sabrina]

So when we say we finally got mic stands, it's not like we weren't trying. We tried like four or five brands.

[Corinne]

Yeah, these are perfect.

[Sabrina]

Yes. Apparently Dax shepherd uses this on Armchair Expert, which is what someone posted in Reddit. And then I just bought them.

[Corinne]

Reddit is.

[Sabrina]

And it's working.

[Corinne]

I used to be afraid of Reddit and now I love Reddit.

[Sabrina]

Oh, I live on Reddit.

[Corinne]

I just didn't understand how it looks so dark web, just the mainframe and the layout of it.

[Sabrina]

Well, I guess I also don't know how to search within Reddit because I still Google search and then I just scroll down until there's a Reddit hit and then I click on Reddit and go from there.

[Corinne]

You know, you can also Google search and then do dash Reddit and I'm sure it will come up quicker.

[Sabrina]

Okay, well, I'm learning.

[Corinne]

Thanks. We're all learning here. And we have a really exciting story for all of you today.

[Sabrina]

I was jazzed about it and it's gonna be spooky because this is two girls, one ghost.

[Corinne]

Two girls, one ghost. And we are your ghostesses. That is Corinne. I can use my hands.

[Sabrina]

I know. And I like the. I like the light behind you. You look so cool.

[Corinne]

You look so cool. Look at your Tiffany's lamp. Oh, I'm Sabrina, by the way. Hi.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. Oh, I should have lit the candles. Already failing.

[Corinne]

Well, we'll do it for the next one. You lose them?

[Sabrina]

No, still working it out.

[Corinne]

You know who we are at this point, hopefully, if you don't welcome. This is who we are. And you're welcome.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. And this is very appropriate is a tombstone that says, here lies my last fuck.

[Corinne]

That's how we feel about lighting the candles right now.

[Sabrina]

Yep.

[Corinne]

I have a book recommendation, and I feel like everyone's probably like, well, no shit, it's good. But the Housemaid by Freida McFadden.

[Sabrina]

Every single person and their mother has been posting this on Instagram. Stories.

[Corinne]

Well, because they're making it a movie with Sydney Sweeney and what's her name from Mamma Mia. And from Girls.

[Sabrina]

Amanda Seyfried.

[Corinne]

Yeah. I'm on the second book, so there's three in the series. I am continuously shook by the twists.

[Sabrina]

What is it about? What's the, like.

[Corinne]

So the concept is this woman, she goes by Millie, she gets a job as a housemaid, and she has, like, a sordid past and has been in prison and stuff. So, like, getting a job has been difficult for her, but she gets this job where she's a live in housemaid for this really wealthy family. But not all is as it seems. And then when it seems like it seems like something, it's not all as it seems. Again.

[Sabrina]

Okay, I need to read this because this is kind of how I felt with God of the woods, and I loved that book so much. So I do want to read this one. Is it a horror? Is it like Parasite?

[Corinne]

Not like Parasite. It is thrillery. It's murder mystery. Yeah. But Frida McFadden does such a good job of giving you twists that you wouldn't expect, which is so rare.

[Sabrina]

I feel like even when I try to make up a twist in my head that I wouldn't expect, like, I can't. It's just. It's impossible to not just go with the same formula everyone else has done. Yeah.

[Corinne]

No, so good.

[Sabrina]

I.

[Corinne]

This morning I was reading the second book and I didn't want to leave. Like, I was like, sorry. Recording. Sorry, Apology.

[Sabrina]

I should have canceled. And then I got me to read the book. I wanted to start today, I'd be like, okay, I'll sit in here and read.

[Corinne]

But today we're also talking about a story that has such insane twists and turns that I never saw coming. It's a true story, and let's just get into it. There are a lot of photos if you want to watch on YouTube, but they're not necessary to the story, but they're just really interesting to, like, look at as we tell the story. It's 1930. A woman asked a Ouija board for guidance, and it led her to the door of another woman, a hammer in hand. Today we are going to travel back in time to 1930s Buffalo, New York, where the infamous Ouija board murder took place. Newspapers were inked with headlines like, witch Slaying Murder by Ouija Board. But the truth behind these sensationalized headlines is far more tragic and far more twisted than I ever could have imagined.

[Sabrina]

I can't even fathom how. How this comes to be.

[Corinne]

Well, because I obviously was drawn in by Ouija board murder, right? As many people would be like, is it Slenderman?

[Sabrina]

Is the Ouija board telling someone to murder someone?

[Corinne]

It's worse.

[Sabrina]

Did the Ouija board murder? Tell me everything, Sabrina. I can't wait. Who murdered who?

[Corinne]

The Ouija board murder is a chilling, true story that intertwines spiritualism, betrayal, and a monstrous manipulation. Content warning. Today's episode does involve a violent and tragic murder in addition to conversations about social injustices, particularly towards native tribes. So before we dive into the story, I want to set up the historical and context landscape of this story. It's 1930s. Buffalo found some cool photos of that time. But like much of the country and world, Buffalo was struggling to recover from the Great Depression. Buffalo was made up a lot of immigrants from Ireland, Germany, Italy and Poland who had come to Buffalo for work and prosperity. But now they're faced with a really stark. Factories were closed, jobs and food were scarce. But there was and is another group of people who were being systematically dismantled. The native Seneca people. The Seneca are known as the keepers of the western door, and they had long inhabited the greater Buffalo region. But by the 1930s, their world had been drastically altered by centuries of colonization, war, and broken treaties. A lot of their land had been absorbed by what was now the Buffalo cityscape, and they were being pushed to other reservations. And they were often, and this is important in this story, they were often villainized by media and law because the settlers and colonizers were like, let's make these people the villains. So that we can take over more of their land.

[Sabrina]

Right? Yeah.

[Corinne]

Scapegoat.

[Sabrina]

Easy.

[Corinne]

Yes, the Ouija board murder is no exception. So with this context, I am going to share the story from the perspective of a Seneca woman, Nancy Bowen. Perhaps as tragic as the murder in this story is the fact that the details surrounding the involved Seneca women are scarce. Like just doing a brief Google search on Nancy Bowen, dozens of articles appear about the murder, but there's no information outside of it and very little information on her history, which is upsetting. But thanks to the Buffalo Historical Society and an American Seneca artist by the name of Marie Watt, I was able to find more information on her. And I'll get to Marie Watt at the end. She did this really cool art piece to honor Nancy Bowen later on in the story. Well, I guess not later on in the story. Recently in history. Nancy Bowen was born sometime around 1866 on the Catarugas reservation in western New York. She was a respected Cayuga healer and herbalist. She married the love of her life, whose name was Charlie Bowen, and together the two of them lived a peaceful life and became a really integral part of their community. Together, they would travel to Buffalo, New York, where Charlie would sell sassafras, which earned him the name Charlie Sassafras Bowen or Sassafras.

[Sabrina]

Have we learned about him before? Why does this sound so familiar?

[Corinne]

I don't know. I don't think so.

[Sabrina]

But I think we did something about sassafras not too long ago.

[Corinne]

I think when people sold sassafras, you just got the nickname, hey, Sassafras.

[Sabrina]

Sassafras.

[Corinne]

It's a good nickname.

[Sabrina]

It is.

[Corinne]

And Nancy would sell her herbal remedies. So it was a prime example of indigenous people coming together with the urban city folk and this, like, blend of cultures and sharing different beliefs and ideas.

[Sabrina]

How long did that last?

[Corinne]

Yeah, so I wrote it was a example of this mutually beneficial relationship, or so they thought. In late 1929, Nancy's life was turned upside down when her beloved husband, Charlie Sassafras Brown, died suddenly. The loss was obviously devastating. It was unexpected and gut wrenching, and the weight of the loss was near impossible to carry. So Nancy Bowen did what many of us, our listeners, those of you who are listening, would do. She sought spiritual guidance. Remember, Nancy herself was a respected spiritual practitioner in her community. And this community was one rich with a spiritual tradition deeply rooted in harmony with nature, a reverence for ancestral spirits, and a very profound belief in the interconnectedness of all things living and dead. So I'm not a native. I don't have all these practices. I'm not well versed in their beliefs. But I did want to provide as context that they are very spiritual practitioners.

[Sabrina]

I thought you were about to sing Colors of the Wind, because that's what I'm picturing that you're going to be like. But I want to provide and.

[Corinne]

But I do really want to sing for all of you. Please plug your ears now. I do love that song, such a good one. So I'm not gonna sing for you, but I just wanted to give some context. Not that we all need context, because here we are all big believers in the paranormal and don't need to justify the desire to go inquire or seek spiritual guidance, especially after a loss of a loved one. But when Nancy's husband passed away, Nancy turned to a friend, a fellow spiritual practitioner, Lila Jimerson.

[Sabrina]

Lila, I like that name. Millie and Lila.

[Corinne]

Millie is from the book, but.

[Sabrina]

Oh, I'm at it, dude.

[Corinne]

But Millie is a good name. Lila and Nancy. In this story, Lila Jimerson was born sometime around 1884 on the same reservation that Nancy Bowen was born on. And this was a close knit community, meaning the two women knew each other. And when one member suffered a loss, the other members of the community showed up in support. I'm really so self aware of my hands right now.

[Sabrina]

Well, I'm watching them too, because you're.

[Corinne]

Using them so much, my Italiano. So Lila was a schoolteacher who had been educated in white schools and had become very enmeshed in a dual cultural lifestyle, spending half of her time on the reservation and the other half among the urban landscape. In 1929, at the time of Charlie Bowen's death, lila was approximately 45 years old. Although some reports vary. And again, this is an issue of like, what details seemed important to reporters and what didn't. Another report said that she was 36 at the time, but Nancy Bowen was 66. So Nancy Bowen came to Lila Jimerson for support, but not just emotional support, but for spiritual aid as well. See, Nancy felt that her husband's death was a little too sudden. She felt that something was amiss. Lila agreed and suggested that they utilize some spiritual practices to inquire further with the other side.

[Sabrina]

This is Sassafras who died, right?

[Corinne]

Correct.

[Sabrina]

He's a businessman. He's making money, he's making trades, he's talking to all types of folk.

[Corinne]

Yep, exactly.

[Sabrina]

Plenty of opportunity to make some enemies.

[Corinne]

And he seemed healthy otherwise, so it was shocking. Lila agreed. And traditional Seneca Spiritual communication typically involved dream interpretation, some gatherings and rituals. They did not typically involve a Ouija board.

[Sabrina]

And now this is where it would have been appropriate for us to have a Ouija board here.

[Corinne]

And the planchette flies across the room.

[Sabrina]

And if you think we're going to play it, you're wrong.

[Corinne]

Just a prop, but stay tuned because we might have an update on that. Hint, hint. So they didn't typically involve Ouija boards, but at this time, Ouija boards were quite popular in pop culture and becoming quite a phenomenon. They were patented in 1891 and made their rounds during the spiritualism movement. And now in the 1920s and 1930s, they were very commonly used. And I found this like, advertisement for Ouija boards. And I don't know specifically what year it is from, but I think I searched 1930s Ouija board ad and it said, special low price, offer $1. So they were accessible.

[Sabrina]

Yeah, even conversion, like, even if that was like 20 bucks, I feel like that's still.

[Corinne]

Right.

[Sabrina]

You could buy a Ouija board, especially if this is something where you're in your own practice, like you're helping other people connect to the other side. And Lila also grew up, you were saying, in this sort of like limbo of Seneca practices and literally mental culture. Yep. And boom.

[Corinne]

Right. So Lila, like I said, was living this enmeshed life. So she liked integrating the more Americanized modern practices with her own native ones. So there she is, she whips out her Ouija board and she's like, hey, Nancy, let's use this as a bridge to connect to your beloved Charlie. Again, details here are a little bit unclear, but apparently over the course of multiple seances and Ouija board sessions, something very chilling became apparent. Nancy was apparently correct in assuming something suspicious with her husband's death. Charlie Sassafras Bowen did not die of natural causes. He was murdered. Dun dun, dun, dun, dun dun. Feels like an old timey, like black and white 1920s murder mystery.

[Sabrina]

It does.

[Corinne]

So while not officially documented by Nancy and Lila, the following conversations were eventually shared in court after the fact. Nancy and Lila sat in a dim candlelit room. Ouija board. Between them, Nancy prayed for one last encounter with her late husband, Charlie. She pled for his presence, for his spirit to come through, for closure. That's what she thought she was looking for. She closed her eyes, took a breath, and together, her and Lila placed their fingertips on the planchette. A chill ran from the top of her head to the soles of her feet. The energy in the room became charged There was a connection formed with the other side. Now, Nancy asked to speak to Charlie. She wished to tell him how much love she had for him, how his departure had turned her life upside down. How she missed him and how her soul ached for his. How despite his absence, he remained a constant in her mind and in her heart. She felt life had grown bleak and gray without him. Now, contact with the other side and with the deceased is never certain. So Nancy did not know what would happen. She could only hope. And then the planchette moved slowly. B E Y O N D beyond. Did that mean they had connected to a spirit on the other side? Charlie, who resided in the beyond? Before long, more messages began to be spelt. T H E Y K I L L E D M E they killed me.

[Sabrina]

Oh, my God.

[Corinne]

Nancy could not believe it.

[Sabrina]

I. I literally have chills. Can you imagine being in this situation?

[Corinne]

So the two women head to the.

[Sabrina]

Soles of my feet.

[Corinne]

Chilly willies.

[Sabrina]

Goosebumps.

[Corinne]

So Lila and Nancy, obviously, like you can imagine. Just like the energy in this room is so palpable. And they're wondering who. Who killed you? Charlie.

[Sabrina]

Right.

[Corinne]

Nancy is more desperate than ever. She needs these answers. Who killed her husband?

[Sabrina]

Did she have any suspicions, or was she going in blind?

[Corinne]

She was going in pretty blind. I mean, she had suspicions that there was some type of foul play.

[Sabrina]

But who the potential trainer was.

[Corinne]

In what was surely the most intense and yet clear communication with the other side, the two women received all of the answers they needed. Truly, all of them. Charlie's spirit continued to share the details of his murder and even named his murderer a woman named Clotilde. Clotilde was a witch. And not only did Charlie's spirit give this name, he gave her address. She lived on Riley street in Buffalo, New York.

[Sabrina]

Was this an affair?

[Corinne]

So Charlie continues to describe the woman in great detail. She's short in stature, she has bangs and missing teeth. Of course, Nancy wanted to know more, and she really wanted her husband back. Knowing that that wasn't possible, her desires turned to justice. Now more than ever, she wanted justice for her husband's death? No, no, no. Not just death. Her husband's murder. Then the planchette went still. The candles flickered, and it appeared that Charlie's spirit had left the room. Lila and Nancy closed the session. And Nancy looked to her friend Lila, perplexed. What the hell just happened? I mean, can you imagine? Processing your husband's death is one thing, and then learning it's a murder? And all of this information, like, I wouldn't Know what to do with it.

[Sabrina]

And also, on top of that, I would have assumed that it was, like, a fellow businessman. And to hear that it's this witch woman, you're like, well, why? In what scenario did you cross paths with her?

[Corinne]

So many questions.

[Sabrina]

There's a lot of emotions I'm sure she's going through.

[Corinne]

Right. What happened next, according to legal documents and sources available online, is that Lila told Nancy she actually knew someone by the name of Clothild. Clotilde.

[Sabrina]

Clotilde.

[Corinne]

Clotilde. It's a French name. Apologies for mispronouncing it. Clotilde Marchand, who happened to live on Riley street in Buffalo, New York. If you have alarm bells ringing, great. You should. Taken aback and likely in shock, Nancy left the seance and returned home, continuing to live her days in this fog, going through the motions, trying to process the information she learned. And then she received a letter in the mail. This letter stated that Clothilde Martrand was a white witch who had cast a spell on sassafras Charlie Bowen, out of jealousy.

[Sabrina]

And she received this letter in the mail.

[Corinne]

In this letter.

[Sabrina]

So now there's another party outside of the spirit of her husband coming through the Ouija board, confirming the same theory.

[Corinne]

And this letter is signed by a Mrs. Dooley. Nancy does not know a Mrs. Dooley, but like you're saying, she's getting another piece of information that is verifying what Charlie's spirit had said through the Ouija board session.

[Sabrina]

This also makes me think of the watcher, too. Like, now I'm almost. I'm suspicious of the woman who was even doing the Ouija board session. Too good.

[Corinne]

You should be, Lila. Now, Nancy has all this information. This letter says that the white witch cast a spell on Charlie out of jealousy. Jealousy of what? Was it an affair? More letters from the same Mrs. Dooley followed. I could only find this one small photo of the letters received. And I, like. You can see it's, like, pretty hard to make out what it said.

[Sabrina]

Oh, but it does. It's like a casual letter. Like it's on normal letter paper.

[Corinne]

Yeah. So what? I think I can read from this letter. And there's some of it that's unclear, but this is what I think it reads. It's dated February 5th, and it says 29, but I think the year is actually 1930, so that might just be, you know, it's a new year. You always write the wrong year by accident. So it says, Dear Mrs. Bowen, I have known Charlie for years. He always a great help to me. I am so sorry to say that he is kill by witchcraft. Now you are going to die very soon too, with a witch. And then there's some stuff that's unclear. Your body unclear in mud. No, there is a woman do made a doll out of you. She made a doll. Grease oil. So the rest is pretty unclear. And it's only a small little image of the letter. So it's not the full letter. But these letters are detailing Clotilde Marchand's actions. As such, her witchcraft didn't work so good, so she, Clotilde, decided to kill Charlie.

[Sabrina]

This is also making me curious if there was another person who was this sort of like psychic medium who was doing automatic writing and getting these messages from specifically Sassafrass, like he's watching all this happen and trying really hard to tell someone.

[Corinne]

There's a lot of confusing questions that come up in this whole story.

[Sabrina]

There's too many players.

[Corinne]

So many players. So Even further this Mrs. Dooley warned in her letters that Nancy would be next and that the only course of action to take in order to protect herself was to kill this witch, Clotilde Marchand. After the Ouija board communications and the collection of ominous letters, Nancy Bowen was so convinced that Clotilde Marchand had murdered her husband and would soon come after her, she was determined to get justice. Spring is in the air. But you want to know what's not in the air of my house? Is the smell of Leia's kitty litter. Thanks to Pretty Litter, because it obliterates odors so we can all enjoy the wonderful scents of spring. And even if you're allergic to cats, Leia, you can come into my house and be like, wow, it smells delightful. It doesn't even smell like there's a cat here, right?

[Sabrina]

And Pretty Litter's non clumping formula traps odor and moisture. It's ultra absorbent, it's lightweight, it's low dust, and one six pound bag works for up to a month. And it also gives you peace of mind. I know that it helped detect a UTI in Leia 1 time.

[Corinne]

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[Sabrina]

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[Corinne]

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[Sabrina]

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[Corinne]

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[Sabrina]

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[Corinne]

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[Sabrina]

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[Corinne]

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[Sabrina]

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[Corinne]

So on March 6, 1930, Nancy Bowen traveled to 576 Riley street in Buffalo, New York and knocked on the front door to confront Clotilde Marchant. She knocked on the door with one hand and in the other hand she gripped a hammer. Clotilde Marchand answered the door. Nancy Bowen confronted her, asking if she was indeed a witch who had killed her beloved Charlie. According to Nancy, Clotilde was dismissive but ultimately did verify the claims that she was a witch and content warning. There is detail of a murder here and also some upsetting information in the next like 30 seconds. Nancy then chloroformed Clotilde Marchand and beat her to death with the hammer before fleeing the scene of the crime. Later that day, 12 year old Henri Marchand, Clotilde's youngest son, returned home from school only to discover the gruesome and bloody crime scene. His mother's lifeless body lay sprawled across the first floor landing. Poor Henri ran to the nearby science museum to get his father and two other brothers. Police were called and an investigation began. Now, most times when you look up this story, it starts here where Clotilde Martin's body is found at the foot of her stairs. And it's the story of a young boy returning home to find his mother dead at the foot of the staircase. From an investigative standpoint, I guess that makes sense that this would be the beginning of the story because that's the murder if you're cop, the suspicious death. Correct. So investigators find her body and for some time they think it's an accident that Clotilde had fallen down the stairs to her death. But of course, as we know, this story is far more complex and far from over. So police and medical examiners brought 52 year old Clothilde Martin's body into custody. And with the discovery of bloody gashes and the odor of chloroform, they determined that this was no accident. This was murder. The murder hit newspaper stands immediately. Clotilde Marchand was a prominent figure in Buffalo society, married to an even more prominent man, Henri Marchand, who was a prolific artist. A little bit of history about Clotilde. She was born in France, either in late 1877 or early 1878. She moved to America with her husband, Henri Marchand, who was a renowned French American sculptor and diorama artist. And together the couple had three children. Clotilde was said to be a very supportive wife and mother who took a backseat to her husband's career. A wallflower, although perhaps not by her own volition, but because society in that time placed women in a role and there was very little to get out of that role. And husbands put women in a role too. As is common still to this day, the police that had. Their primary suspect was Henri Martand Clark, Clotilde's husband. They called him in for questioning, but he had an alibi. And soon after, neighbors reported that they had seen an elderly native woman in the neighborhood, which led police to Nancy Bowen. And I don't know what pieces were strung together to get to Nancy Bowen, but they did. They got to Nancy Bowen. Nancy Bowen was taken into custody and questioned, where she immediately confessed to the murder. Nancy had admitted she killed Clotilde Marchand, but. But she felt justified in doing so because Clotilde Marchand was a witch who killed her husband and then was going to kill her, too.

[Sabrina]

How do you.

[Corinne]

But she has the letters.

[Sabrina]

I was gonna say she actually does have tangible proof now, because it's not just like, oh, the spirit of my dead husband told me through a talking board.

[Corinne]

Right.

[Sabrina]

She also received a letter, and she has a witness, which is Lila.

[Corinne]

Right. So she's sad, obviously. She's remorseful and sorrowful, but she also feels justified. She's like, I did the right thing. I had to do this. This was the only course of action I could take.

[Sabrina]

So she's fearing for her own life now, too.

[Corinne]

Absolutely. And the police don't typically go, ah, yes, the old witch killed my husband, so I killed the witch alibi very seriously. But then they began to uncover an even more wicked plot and an even more malevolent manipulation. So Nancy disclosed the events that took place following her husband's death. The Ouija board session, the letters. And it became clear that Lila Jimerson had taken advantage of her grieving friend for her own murder plot. Because Lila Jimmerson was romantically involved with one Henri Marchand, Clotilde's husband.

[Sabrina]

Oh, my God.

[Corinne]

Isn't this wild?

[Sabrina]

Also so fucked up because she knows that they have children.

[Corinne]

But it gets even more fucked up. On March 7, 1930, both Lila Jimerson and Nancy Bowen are arrested for the murder of Clotilde Marchand. And this is when it becomes sensationalized. And it's like in all the headlines and all of the newspapers are villainizing and they're using the word Indian women and like magic witches and just all these negative stereotypes about the Seneca Native tribe that was commonplace during this time. And kind of like I was saying, the marginalized, systematic injustices that were which.

[Sabrina]

Clotilde said that she also practiced a bunch of poseable tears.

[Corinne]

Yeah.

[Sabrina]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

But the case was far from closed, and the truth was yet to be revealed, for something much more malicious lay beneath the surface. So now both Nancy Bowen and Lila Jimerson are in custody, accused of first degree murder. And then the true story begins to unfold. Like I said, Henri Marchand was a well known artist, known for his highly detailed wax figures and dioramas. His art, though, is absolutely unimportant to me and I refuse to show it on this podcast or give him any time of day because this man deserves no recognition. So the newspapers are printing Henri Marchand and Clotilde Marchand, this like, beautiful, happy family now destroyed by Native or like by Indian women, magic women, witches. But their family was not this perfect family that newspapers were painting them out to be or him out to be. Henry often recruited Native American women as models for his art. And he prided himself in seducing said models to a point where he bragged about his sexual conquests, claiming they were a professional necessity.

[Sabrina]

Oh God, that reminds me of that, like modern day, that once it's photographer.

[Corinne]

I think it happens a lot.

[Sabrina]

Yeah, he like photographs all the celebrities naked, but like he has his own books where like all of his models he's like literally having sex with.

[Corinne]

It's disgusting. And he's clearly taking advantage of his power position and taking advantage of women who are mostly from marginalized communities. Yeah, he was a sexual predator. He crossed boundaries, took advantage of women. And Lila Jimerson actually was one of the many models that Henri Marchand had worked with. And he took advantage of her, manipulated her, led her to believe he loved her. Henry had very little regard for these women, as becomes very, very clear in the trial. He had no intention of leaving his wife for any of them. But that did not stop him from enchanting them and making them fall in love with him. Like, I think he enjoyed that. It was like a game for him. That poor Clothilde, I know he led Lila Jimmerson to believe that he would leave his wife for her. Lila was deeply and profoundly in love with Henry. She wanted to be with him forever. But in her mind, the only thing that stood in her way, in their way, was Clotilde Marchand. I believe Henry made Lila believe that the only thing standing in their way was Clotilde. Like he, he is a master manipulator. He knew what he was doing. He was taking advantage of all these women and he loved the fact that they loved him and, and like they almost would do anything for him. So when it's just like tale as.

[Sabrina]

Old as time, can we just collectively stop with these people?

[Corinne]

Right.

[Sabrina]

The end of men.

[Corinne]

The lesson of this story is men are bad.

[Sabrina]

It's just like the same type of guy exists in every single generation.

[Corinne]

I know.

[Sabrina]

And people, well now think about like.

[Corinne]

The way he acted and like, then it passes on to like his children and then, you know, it just.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. Which is also going on.

[Corinne]

And when you watch, when you read Housemaid, there's a lot of that as well. Like it's just generational trauma passed down and continuously. Someone needs to stop it. This is how Lila is feeling. And she has been led to believe the only obstacle that is getting in the way between her and Henry being together forever is Clotilde. So when her friend Nancy Bowen comes to her convinced that there is some aspect of foul play in her husband Charlie's murder, Lila saw an opportunity and she took it. Lila planted the idea that Charlie was murdered by Clotilde Marchand during the Ouija board session. She manipulated the planchette to spell out messages like, killed Clotilde Buffalo. When Nancy took no action immediately, Lila took it a step further and wrote letters to her friend Nancy, signed Mrs. Dooley. At first the letters reiterated what the Ouija board said. Clotilde had killed Charlie. But Lila had to then heighten the stakes. Not only had Clotilde killed Charlie, but she was now going to kill Nancy next. The only way to stop all of this from happening was for Nancy to kill Clotilde herself. And that is exactly what Nancy Bowen did. She killed Clotilde Marchand. And I am sure there was a brief moment where Lila thought everything had gone according to plan. That Henry would come running to her, wed her, and they would live happily ever after. But no, instead, as is typical, Henry pretends he doesn't even know her. He gives zero shits about Lila. He's ice cold to her. Not a care in the world. Then the trial of Nancy Bowen and Lila Jimerson begins in May 1930 and lasted about two and a half weeks. And I'm going to stand very firmly on this. Justice was not served. Nancy Bowen pled guilty to manslaughter. But most people already saw her as a sympathetic figure, which I do really appreciate, because they could have really villainized her and Lila a lot more.

[Sabrina]

But she was coerced.

[Corinne]

But she was coerced. She was the 66 year old woman who was grieving the loss of her husband. And just even this picture of her, like you look at this photo and you just want to give her a hug.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. It's hard because I think I would feel differently if it were strictly her seeking revenge. But she was also. Her own life was threatened too.

[Corinne]

Exactly. So so people do see Nancy pretty sympathetically. She's a grief stricken elderly woman who was taken advantage by a love stricken, jealous woman that she thought was her friend. The Buffalo Times wrote that Nancy told her story as if recounting a vision, convinced even still that she had acted on the side of righteousness, which in her reality she did. She apparently had also asked another man by the name of Victor 2 gun to kill the witch because it was believed and also told to Nancy that this witch, Clotilde, witch in quotes. Clotilde, had marked Victor2Gun's pregnant wife for death as well. But Victor2Gun was working and didn't want to lose time by killing Clotilde. So Nancy went to do it herself. Newspapers loved this Ouija board witchcraft angle. There's a bunch of photos that I'm including in here that have newspaper headlines. Pagan rites of 500 years ago still Practiced. Indian Models Trial for Witch Murder Reveals Confessions of Indian Women. Say Ouija Board Magic Forced killing. They're just like really leaning into it. There's like virtually zero headlines that focus on Henry and his part of it.

[Sabrina]

Right. And instead of just focusing on this, like one specific, specific individual who is completely manipulated by this man, they're instead using her entire culture and community to blame.

[Corinne]

Exactly. I will say, and I am grateful for this. People were pretty disgusted by Henry when, like, a lot of stuff comes out and I'll share more about that in a minute. So they do include his illicit affairs and betrayals, but that's not what they're leading with. That's like buried in the story that you have to read.

[Sabrina]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

And consensus agreed that Henry was perceived as a disgrace and there was very little sympathy for his actions. But aside from, like, his career kind of dwindling and becoming less of a prominent figure in Buffalo, he had no punishments for his actions.

[Sabrina]

I'm not surprised. But wow.

[Corinne]

It is said that during the trial, everyone in the courtroom fell silent as Nancy Bowen shared her tragic truth. And then that Lila Jimerson broke down weeping with remorse. And that Henri Marchand was utterly tone deaf, egotistical, making comments like, in my work, it was necessary to win the confidence of my models. Sometimes that meant personal relations. According to the Associated Press, there were audible gasps when the artist admitted his professional necessities, a euphemism no soul in the room failed to understand.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. Cause what the fuck? Also, like, if you're hiring models, then that's their profession. If you have to have sex with someone and create a relationship and make them romantically involved, with you in order to get them to pose the way you want, then that's not hiring a model, right?

[Corinne]

No, he wanted.

[Sabrina]

That's taking advantage of someone that you are spurring up a fake relationship with.

[Corinne]

He wanted to take advantage of them?

[Sabrina]

Yeah. Disgusting.

[Corinne]

At the conclusion of the trial, Nancy Bowen was sentenced to time served, meaning she was released at the end of the trial. Having said spent two to three months in jail while awaiting the trial. She returned to the reservation and lived quietly until her death a few years later. But again, as she's released, all of these newspapers are like Witch woman trundles back to reservation. It's like upsetting. But her plans were to go home and plant corn, which I think is very wholesome. And I appreciate that for her. Lila Jimerson was acquitted. And while she was responsible for the coercion of the murder during that time, emotional manipulation was not enough for a conviction. Whereas today that would absolutely be. And I do. While I have sympathy and empathy for Lila and her situation, she is at fault. I still very much believe, like, she has responsibility in this. Lila went on to marry and lived not far from the reservation in Perrysburg, New York until she died in 1972. And then Henri Marchand. Perhaps the most infuriating aspect of the story is that, yeah, maybe his career was destroyed after his wife's murder, but he was never convicted of anything. And after the trial, mother trucking Henri Marchand goes on to marry his deceased wife's 18 year old niece.

[Sabrina]

If he wasn't already dead, I'd say.

[Corinne]

Let'S kill him right the fuck I know.

[Sabrina]

What a disgusting man.

[Corinne]

Yeah. He was never prosecuted and lived a secluded, quiet life with his child bride until he died in 1952.

[Sabrina]

Thank you for writing Child Bride because.

[Corinne]

Literally, newspapers of the day sensationalized the story, framing it as a bizarre tale of witchcraft and savagery. But the real horror was not supernatural. It was human. Specifically, it was man. So I want to honor both Clotilde Marchand and Nancy Bowen. They were both victims in this case. I do believe Lila was manipulated, but like I said, jealousy is not an excuse to lead someone else to commit murder. Clotilde Martand was apparently a real artist, but but had put her gift aside to allow Henry to pursue his. I couldn't find any of her paintings, but they were apparently exhibited once in 1930. But there's no photos of her paintings I know. In 2022, artist Marie Watt, who I mentioned in the beginning of this episode, created a project aimed to revise Nancy Bowen's story and in quotes place it in the context of what was happening present day to reflect those who have directly experienced death, incarceration and and familial community trauma as a result of entrenched racism. The project included two neon signs spelling out Nancy Bowen's name hanging on the exterior facade of the Buffalo History Museum.

[Sabrina]

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[Corinne]

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[Corinne]

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[Sabrina]

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[Corinne]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee full [e-mail] and as this is a paranormal Podcast I think we can agree that the spiritual realm was invoked and played a very important role in this tragic murder. But it was the devilish cruelty of the living that led to Clotilde Martin's unjustified end.

[Sabrina]

Holy shit.

[Corinne]

Doesn't that take so many twists?

[Sabrina]

So many. I also wish I was a detective back then because as soon as that letter came in, I was like, Lila, right? I would have caught her fast, right? Maybe before the murder, but that's just me. In hindsight, right? Looking at what you've written, I definitely.

[Corinne]

Wouldn'T have but like you can really see it from Nancy's perspective and like.

[Sabrina]

Well, and also like at the time, just so many different cultures and yeah, just being a woman at that time and an elderly woman and already just so much going on and like she's friends with Lila, like she sees so much. I'm actually shocked that her friendship, like it seems like Lila was so in love with this man. I'm actually shocked that she didn't try to like parade that information around and that Nancy didn't already know about him.

[Corinne]

Well, I think it's because Henry was like, you can't tell anyone about our relationship. You know, he was so good at, I mean, he had relations with how many women? We don't know. We don't even know the extent of it, but he was bragging about it. And so I'm sure just the power he had over them and their lives and the control he leaned into that. There's actually also. I know, I mean, this is interesting because it does bring up another conversation about the way that some people have used spiritual communication to manipulate. And there are stories of famous people losing loved ones. And then these like self proclaimed psychics and mediums say, like, oh, your loved one has come through to me and has this like ominous warning that they need to share with you.

[Sabrina]

Or even in so many different crime and missing person.

[Corinne]

Exactly.

[Sabrina]

There's people and like, yeah, there's the rogue psychic that actually does get the correct information. But it's kind of just like what we talk about where it's like when we want to go get a reading. How do you know that someone is legit? It's such an easy profession for people who are fake to kind of go in and prey on people and like, what are you going to do? Be like, well, I think this information that you give me on my future is false, so give me my money back. Like that. It doesn't work like that, so. It does.

[Corinne]

Actually. One of our listeners recently sent US a DM on Instagram. And she had gone to see a psychic. And the psychic was like. Or a medium, a spiritual practitioner of some kind. And this woman was like, you have a curse on you. I'm not going to charge you for your reading. I'm just going to charge you for the supplies I need to buy to remove this curse from you. And, like, the supplies cost, like $5,000 or something like that. And our listener, thankfully, didn't give the full amount. She gave, like, a deposit, which still is unfortunate. And then things got even shadier and seedier, and the psychic was like, now I need to borrow your car and all this stuff.

[Sabrina]

Okay. And then you take them to small claims court.

[Corinne]

Yeah. So it is one of those things where unfortunately, because with the paranormal and spiritual communication, it is hard to verify the authenticity of people. There are con men and women out there who are taking advantage of your emotional state for their own benefit.

[Sabrina]

Because some people go and get readings for fun. Right. Like Salem in October. Everyone wants a reading. It's just funsies. But there are people who. Yeah. When you go, you're looking for something. You're looking for emotional validation on, like, a path or an issue that you're having.

[Corinne]

And they can prey on that. Yeah. I want to say, like, there were some kings who had their own oracles.

[Sabrina]

Right? Yeah.

[Corinne]

And people who just make. Yeah. Every decision based on.

[Sabrina]

But it's like, if you find someone who is legit.

[Corinne]

Yeah.

[Sabrina]

I'd be so tempted too.

[Corinne]

But it's finding someone who's legit that sometimes is difficult.

[Sabrina]

And I feel like everybody was a story about someone who was really legit. You're like, who did you go to? And they're like, I can't remember.

[Corinne]

Right.

[Sabrina]

Like, why?

[Corinne]

Yeah. You don't realize how rare it is until, like, after the fact.

[Sabrina]

Right.

[Corinne]

But yeah. I think this is just like a caution to those of you who are listening to always do your due diligence. Never give a psychic medium money beyond, like, the reading cost. If they're like, asking you for an absurd amount of money and saying the only way for a curse to be removed from you is if you pay me $5,000. Red flags.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. If you have a curse on you, here's a free tip. Join our discord. There are so many practicing witches. There's literally like a coven that exists within two girls, one cross that has nothing to do with us and our abilities.

[Corinne]

Right.

[Sabrina]

It is people who actually practice and have really good advice for you, your culture, however you practice and will help you come up with things to rid yourself of these curses or can direct you to like, what is appropriate and normal for someone who is given. Giving these offerings.

[Corinne]

Exactly.

[Sabrina]

So seek guidance there. Because just blindly spending money on people like this. Yeah, you do. You can get yourself in some hot water.

[Corinne]

It does also make me, like, upset. Cause I'm thinking about this is like, what would go through my mind is what if this person is a legit psychic medium and if I don't pay them the money because, like, they're taking advantage of me, they. They do put a curse on me. That's my, like, worst case scenario brain going down these rabbit holes. Not that I would give them the money in that situation, but like, if.

[Sabrina]

You give them money, then they're gonna. And keep asking, like, you're just.

[Corinne]

I know.

[Sabrina]

You're better off saying no and taking the hit of a potential curse which will then negatively affect them and Comes around.

[Corinne]

Goes around. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah, that is the story of the Ouija board murder, which.

[Sabrina]

Incredible.

[Corinne]

And I also was so surprised I've never heard of it before. It reminded me of the Ouija board escape that the, like, prisoners had done. But then it also was shocking to me when I was googling it how many news stories, smaller news stories there are about people like, claiming a Ouija board caused them to commit a murder.

[Sabrina]

Well, okay, is that them trying to set themselves up for an insanity defense or dis. Now, I might. Well, I'm not planning on murdering anyone.

[Corinne]

Please don't.

[Sabrina]

I might use that.

[Corinne]

This is recorded. This could go into evidence.

[Sabrina]

Well, here's the thing. I'm not going to kill anyone, but. Yeah, no, that makes me think that it might have been like an attempt at setting up.

[Corinne]

Yeah, I didn't read into it that much, but I did save a link for a future episode. So stay tuned.

[Sabrina]

Okay, so I did not know what your story was about yet. I picked a Ouija board story that kind of has to do with relationships and love.

[Corinne]

Well, how perfect.

[Sabrina]

Here we go. But this one ends a little bit nicer.

[Corinne]

That's good. We like that.

[Sabrina]

This is from Margie. Hey, gals. I'm currently binging trying to get caught up. And I'm listening to encounters127 where Julia shared her mother's experience. Experience. And the board gave the name of her future husband. So this reminded me of what my dad always told us happened to him when he was young. And I'll preface by saying that by the time my younger siblings and I came around, my dad was a pastor. And the story of a Ouija board was a warning to not mess with these things because they can mess with you back.

[Corinne]

Yeah. Any form of divination and communication, it's opening yourself up. Yeah.

[Sabrina]

So dad and his fiance Glenda were at a party and someone brought a board out. And they all got around it to play. The obligatory first question began. And when it was my dad's turn to ask a question, the man who made me the smartass that I am said, what's the name of the woman I'm going to marry? And the board spilled out, D I, A, N. And he says that he and Glenda just laughed together and then went on with their lives. So cut to years later, and my dad and Glenda got divorced. A whole lot of mental and physical abuse. Not to mention the fact that she got pregnant while he was in the Navy overseas.

[Corinne]

Oh, shit. Okay.

[Sabrina]

So when he was telling us the story and got to the name that the board had given him all those years before, we realized that it had given him our mom's name. Her name is a misspelled version of Diane, because her dad was filling out the paperwork for her birth certificate. And he spelled it like it sounded. So he left. He left off the silent letters at the end. No. So, D I, A, N. Diane, that's the only Ouija board story I have. Because I won't play. I'm way too afraid of what it will tell me. We lived in a poltergeist house for a long, long time. And I was the target of most of the activity almost every single night. So I didn't want to give it a voice. Chicken butt that I am. Stay spooky, ladies.

[Corinne]

Margie, this is amazing.

[Sabrina]

Right? And of course, it's a. It's like a Ouija board at a party. So he and his fiance, Diane, were about to get married.

[Corinne]

Are like.

[Sabrina]

You mean not Diane or Glenda?

[Corinne]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sabrina]

They're just, like, joking around, thinking, like, how silly. This means nothing. And it probably did feel like nothing for years because they did get married.

[Corinne]

Because they got married, but it was about his second. That is wild. Could you imagine when he. When he met her, the shock he probably felt, right? Like he saw her across. I don't know what. How they met, but saw her across the room. He's like, wow, there's something about that woman. I'm drawn to her. Hey, what's your name? Diane. But spelled D I, A, N, like wild.

[Sabrina]

And it does make me wonder how long it took him to make that connection. And also interesting that now that he's a pastor, he tries to tell that story as a warning against Ouija boards. If anything that promotes them.

[Corinne]

I'm like, get me a Ouija board right now.

[Sabrina]

Right. Like, oh, spooky story, dad, you were told. You're what we all ask, like, what's the name of our future husband? What's the name of our future child? Like, these are the things that, like, when we're 16, we're writing in our journals. Yeah, this happens. And he did it on a Ouija board at a party. First Beyonce.

[Corinne]

That's so wild and so cool.

[Sabrina]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

Actually. Okay, we need to talk real quick about our investigation that we did in the room in here.

[Sabrina]

Oh, yeah.

[Corinne]

So if you missed it in encounters 278, at the end of the episode, we did a little ghost tube session to communicate with the spirits in this office to try to understand what spirit had scared Noah. A lot of people have, like, put their comments in the episode, trying to, like, ask us questions and then their theories on what happened. Multiple people asked if there's a book on. On the bookshelf that is written by a Keith, but then another person. And this kind of seems like the most true. Was like the spirit was telling us that the spirit that scared Noah was just a visitor passing through, and that that spirit's name was Keith, but that he's not here. Oh, like that Keith just passed through and scared Noah accidentally. Not that he was a bad spirit, but maybe the way he appeared or something like that.

[Sabrina]

Well, that could make a lot of sense too, because after I gave my light threat to the office that night, when I was putting Noah to bed, I saw feet going back and forth, like, pacing in front of his door, like, under the crack. And then the baby aquarium turned on. But it felt good. It felt positive. Like, someone was just, like, worried maybe about my upset with the spirit realm.

[Corinne]

Yeah.

[Sabrina]

So it didn't feel like the same thing, but it was also weird because it's like, I feel like I'm pretty sensitive to these things and in my mom, too. Like, my mom always hears everything.

[Corinne]

Right.

[Sabrina]

Noah was so scared. And we were both right here, and.

[Corinne]

We'Re like, what did this happen? But that was so different than anything you'd ever experienced in this house.

[Sabrina]

Right.

[Corinne]

So does that. That's why it made sense to me. Like, oh, it just was like a one time passing through a spirit. And then a lot of people were like, andy's cursed and haunted. Not cursed. People were like, andy's haunted and something's in him. I was like, andy. You're Andy. Want people look at Andy and think that he should be haunted, but he is adorable and precious and stop talking about him that way. I'm gonna be upset.

[Sabrina]

But if he is haunted, it's with good vibes.

[Corinne]

Yeah. Happiness.

[Sabrina]

The joy of all of our community.

[Corinne]

The way that you're protective of Noah right now is how I'm protective of Sandy. So back off, everyone.

[Sabrina]

Also, wait a second. I just remembered something. One of our listeners met my Aunt Diane. Now, that Diane came up in that story when it was in Portsmouth, and it was, I don't know, like a couple weeks ago. My Aunt Diane didn't even tell me. My mom told me.

[Corinne]

She was like, so funny.

[Sabrina]

Okay, so my Aunt Diane works at her friend's liquor store or whatever, and she, this woman, like, whipped out a wallet and it had a Ouija board on it. And then Diane, like, struck up a conversation like, oh, do you like that stuff? Like, I have a niece that is all the spooky, creepy niece, spooky shit. Yeah. And the woman knew two girls from ghost and apparently gave Aunt Diane a handshake. So Diane got a handshake from this listener. I have yet to receive one.

[Corinne]

I'll give you a handshake. Thanks. Yep. Nice doing business to be so clammy. You are. Give us your handshakes and also your ghost stories. Email them to us@2girls1ghost podcastmail.com if you don't watch to this point, look in the show notes. That's where all of the information is. If you're wondering, although you've not made it to this point, so I'm telling this to people who do know anyway. But if you're looking for any information about the episode or how to contact us. Show notes, description. It's all there.

[Sabrina]

Watch on YouTube if you're not already. We're on every listening platform and one thing that does really help if you is rating and reviewing and telling everyone else.

[Corinne]

Yes, liking subscribing on YouTube and also if you want bonus content or episodes ad free and one week early, join us over on Patreon. There are so many fun perks over there and the community is spectacular.

[Sabrina]

Spooktacular book club is maybe one of my favorite perks.

[Corinne]

Yeah, we're reading Ghost eaters by Clay McLoyd I think is his name. And it's like a gothic supernatural book about. It's kind of like the Matrix. Like if you could take a pill and be able to see the other side. We haven't started reading it yet, but it's our next book club book we'll be reading and meeting on June 25, which is the new moon, which I'm excited. How fun. And we'll talk about it then.

[Sabrina]

Thank you to all of you for coming week after week. Don't forget to share your stories with us. And thank you to our editor, Jamie for helping us cut the floss. We love you all and we will see you on the other side. Very spooky.

[Corinne]

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