Episode 361 - Madam C.J. Walker Theater

Summary

Two Girls One Ghost
Episode 361 – Madam C.J. Walker Theater
Release Date: February 22, 2026
Hosts: Corinne Vien & Sabrina Deana-Roga

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode honors Black History Month by diving into the remarkable life of Madam C.J. Walker – the first female self-made millionaire in the United States – and the fascinating, haunted history of the Madam Walker Theater in Indianapolis, Indiana. Corinne and Sabrina explore Walker’s legacy as a trailblazing entrepreneur and philanthropist, the creation and cultural significance of her namesake theater, and the enduring spirit said to inhabit its halls. The discussion touches on Black excellence, historical racism, perseverance, and the importance of community spaces, seamlessly blending history with the supernatural.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Podcast Banter & Housekeeping
[01:19–04:00]

• The hosts kick off with lighthearted basketball banter and a playful discussion about paywalls and Patreon content.
• They clarify that while paid options exist for ad-free and early episodes, the regular content remains free, and they happily overdeliver on Patreon perks.

  “We have over 104 free episodes produced for you every single year.” – Corinne (05:00)

Dreams, Ghosts & Real-Life Hauntings
[08:53–11:29]

• Sabrina shares a recent disturbing dream involving spirits warning her about an impending threat, with her child Noah waking up simultaneously, suggesting a possible paranormal connection.
• Her mother also reports hearing a woman’s voice in the house.

  “The spirits at my house…were warning me that something was coming for me and was going to try to attack, and they were going to try their best to protect me, but they didn’t know if they could.” – Sabrina (09:17)

• The hosts reflect on the thin line between dreams, hauntings, and the need for spiritual cleansing.

Madam C.J. Walker and the Birth of a Legacy
[13:30–55:00]

Background & Early Life
[16:49–19:58]

• Madam C.J. Walker was born Sarah Breedlove in 1867 to formerly enslaved parents in Louisiana.
• The only child in her family born into freedom, she became an orphan at age seven and worked as a domestic servant with almost no formal schooling.

Early Adulthood & Formative Experiences
[19:58–24:39]

• Married at 14 to escape abuse, became a widow at 19 and a single mother.
• Moved to St. Louis, joined the African Methodist Episcopal Church, and was inspired to seek greater independence.

Building an Empire
[24:39–31:47]

• Started out selling Annie Turnbo Malone’s ‘Great Wonderful Hair Grower’, learning sales and marketing.
• Married Charles Joseph Walker, began developing her own hair care formula, and launched ‘Madam Walker’s Wonderful Hair Grower’.

  “She was one of the first people to use before and after photos as proof…it was like modern-day influencer techniques, but in the 1910s.” – Corinne (31:47)

Empowering Black Women & Business Innovations
[29:49–33:26]

• Trained an “army” of Walker Agents, empowering thousands of Black women with sales, business, and grooming skills.
• Her marketing genius—branding her products with her image, using testimonials, and national mail-order—set industry precedents.

Indianapolis, Philanthropy & Community Building
[33:26–38:15]

• Relocated headquarters to Indianapolis, contributing to a burgeoning Black business corridor.
• Funded churches, institutions, and civil rights organizations.
• Sued a racist theater for discrimination and vowed to build a cultural center of her own.

Creation and Significance of the Madam Walker Theater
[41:41–48:36]

• After Walker’s death in 1919, her daughter and business associates fulfilled her vision by building the Walker Building—a four-story multipurpose complex including a theater, ballroom, restaurant, drugstore, salon, and more.
• Opened in 1927, it became a key refuge for Black artists and travelers during the Jim Crow era, listed in the famous Green Book.
• Hosted legendary performers such as Nat King Cole, Ella Fitzgerald, and Duke Ellington.

  “The Walker Theater offered something rare in segregated America. It stood as a physical representation of everything Madam C.J. Walker believed in—that Black excellence didn’t need permission to be. It just needed the space.” – Corinne (46:20)

Survival, Restoration & Present-Day Operations
[47:33, 48:36–49:02]

• Despite urban renewal threats, the community rallied to save the building.
• The center remains a beacon of community, performance, and cultural education, dedicated to Walker’s legacy.

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The Haunting of the Madam Walker Theater

Reported Paranormal Experiences
[49:06–51:39]

• From construction days onward, reports abound of shadow people, spectral figures, and unexplained activity—especially during renovations or large events.

  “Staff, performers, and caretakers alike...report footsteps in empty hallways, doors opening and closing on their own, lights turning on after hours, and the feeling of being observed. And not in a scary way, but in almost an authoritative, supervisor way.” – Corinne (50:04)

• A woman dressed in period clothing—believed to be Madam Walker herself—has been seen in various parts of the building, especially the theater and upper levels.
• Activity is described as protective and supervisory: Madam Walker’s spirit seems to remain to oversee operations, ensuring the space remains true to its purpose and legacy.

The Ghost Light
[13:30, 49:06]

• The theater tradition of leaving a “ghost light” on takes added meaning here – left specifically for Madam Walker.

  “The staff here always remembers to leave the ghost light on for Madam C.J. Walker.” – Corinne (51:44)

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Highlights, Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “She didn’t just build a theater—she built a sanctuary. A place where Black artistry, ambition, and excellence were allowed to exist loudly.” – Corinne (13:14)
• “If I could tattoo every person who has inspired me on my body, I would include her.” – Corinne (03:33)
• “I hope to be a fraction of the type of woman that she was. To give back.” – Corinne (52:22)
• “Madam Walker is most prominent...She is simply guarding and overseeing the space because she cares about it deeply.” – Corinne (51:18)
• “She had three months of formal education, and at the time of her death...her assets were valued at over $1 million, earning her a place in the Guinness Book of World Records as the first female self-made millionaire in the United States. Not just the first Black female—first female, generally.” – Corinne (53:28–53:35)
• Direct quote from Madam C.J. Walker [55:00]:

  “I am a woman who came from the cotton fields of the South. From there I was promoted to the washtub. From there I was promoted to the cook kitchen. And from there, I promoted myself into the business of manufacturing hair goods and preparations. I have built my own factory on my own ground.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:19 – Banter, basketball, and business updates
• 08:53 – Sabrina’s dream and ghostly experiences at home
• 13:30 – Atmospheric intro: the Walker Theater at night, segueing into history
• 16:49 – Madam C.J. Walker’s birth, childhood, and adversity
• 24:39 – Early business ventures, Annie Malone, and start of Madam Walker’s empire
• 29:49 – Empowerment of Black women through the Walker Agent program
• 33:26 – Move to Indianapolis and increasing philanthropic work
• 41:41 – Construction and opening of the Walker Theater
• 46:20 – The theater’s role during Jim Crow era and the Green Book
• 49:06 – The hauntings: ghostly sightings and Madam Walker’s lingering presence
• 52:22 – Reflections on Walker’s lasting inspiration
• 55:00 – Madam C.J. Walker’s own words
• 56:47 – Listener paranormal story from Indianapolis

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Listener Submission
[56:47–61:50]

Sabrina shares a listener story from Morgan, who experienced sleep-paralysis-like hauntings in a Southside Indianapolis apartment, featuring spectral figures and unexplained phenomena like the smell of cigarettes and disturbed blinds. The hosts connect Morgan’s experiences to broader themes of hauntings and the thin boundary between dreams and the paranormal.

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Tone and Original Spirit

Corinne and Sabrina keep their trademark conversational, enthusiastic, and irreverent style throughout, mixing heartfelt admiration, humor, and occasional light cursing (“fucking goddamn legend!”), while emphasizing the inspirational power of Walker’s story.

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Conclusion

The episode stands as both a celebration of Madam C.J. Walker’s trailblazing impact and a chilling account of her spiritual legacy. The tales of the haunted theater serve as a living testament to Walker’s indomitable spirit and her continued influence on the Indianapolis community and beyond. Listeners are encouraged to learn more, share their own stories, and draw inspiration from Walker’s unmatched resilience and generosity.

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Key Takeaway

Madam C.J. Walker’s life and afterlife exemplify resilience, vision, and selfless leadership. Her empowering legacy lives on in the very walls of the Madam Walker Legacy Center—where the lights, history, and spirits never truly fade.

Transcript

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[Sabrina]

Your planet is now marked for death.

[Commercial Voice]

Marvel Studios the Fantastic Four First Steps is now streaming on Disney.

[Sabrina]

We will protect you as a family.

[Commercial Voice]

Light em up, Johnny Marvel's first family is certified fresh on Rotten Tomatoes. That is fantastic. And critics say it's one of the best superhero movies of all time. Marvel Studios the Fantastic Four first steps now streaming on Disney. Rated PG 13. What time is it, Ben? It's Clobber Dawn.

[Corinne]

Very spooky. Hey.

[Sabrina]

Hey. This is two girls, one ghost. Two girls, One ghost, one coast.

[Corinne]

And I like basketball now.

[Sabrina]

Wow. Oh, because you went to. She goes to one Celtics game. She likes basketball.

[Corinne]

And now I'm a Celtics fan. I like. A couple weeks ago I said that the Bruins were the one Boston team that I could support.

[Sabrina]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

But I realized that my family wasn't a big basketball family either. And like, we went to Nets games

[Sabrina]

growing up, but I don't have Nets. Who are the Nets?

[Corinne]

The Nets. New York Nets.

[Sabrina]

They're.

[Corinne]

There's New York Nets and New York Knicks.

[Sabrina]

Sorry. To the Nets. I didn't know you existed. Never heard about you. That's not saying much. As if I'm a huge basketball player.

[Corinne]

If you're a huge basketball gal.

[Sabrina]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

But so, yeah, I'm really leaning into my Boston nerves and going to.

[Sabrina]

Do the squeaky sneakers not bother you. That's what I. That's what drives me insane at basketball games. The like constant squeaking.

[Corinne]

I feel like it's loud enough in the live arena. Yeah, I do hate basketball sneakers, personally.

[Sabrina]

Like the look of them.

[Corinne]

The one year that I played basketball. They're so uncomfortable. Oh yeah, they look. They're like clunky.

[Sabrina]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

And I also broke my thumb playing basketball.

[Sabrina]

But now you're the Celtics number one fan.

[Corinne]

Number one.

[Sabrina]

Number one. She knows everyone's names, all the stats.

[Corinne]

I'm your Woo girl. I know nothing. Except for I. Actually now I know a couple of the players because people who played last night.

[Sabrina]

Oh, I thought you meant like personal. Damn.

[Corinne]

Stay tuned.

[Sabrina]

Not yet. She goes to one game. She's dating four of the players on the team. Had they seen four of them. Well, you said a few.

[Corinne]

That's a lot to juggle.

[Sabrina]

You said a few.

[Corinne]

I know. Know some of them equal. I'm dating four. Spread the rumor. Take to Reddit. Sabrina's dating four Celtics players.

[Sabrina]

Which ones?

[Corinne]

I'm not, but.

[Taco Bell Announcer]

But.

[Corinne]

Hi, I'm Sabrina. That's Corinne.

[Sabrina]

Hi.

[Corinne]

And this is an episode that we. Following last week's. We are celebrating another episode for Black History Month. And I'm so excited about this episode because this woman and the haunting we're gonna talk about is so inspiring and so badass.

[Sabrina]

Cause last week was not uplifting. Uplifting.

[Corinne]

I mean, obviously, it's, like, drenched in racism and sadness, but her story and the perseverance is just so absolutely incredible. If I could tattoo every person who has inspired me on my body, like, I would include her.

[Sabrina]

Yeah, that's actually a really cool tattoo sleeve idea.

[Corinne]

Sabrina also has a tattoo sleeve.

[Sabrina]

You're on your way. You have a few, actually.

[Corinne]

Okay, before I get into this badass, inspiring, haunting, and story, let's discuss some business real quick.

[Sabrina]

Okay.

[Corinne]

Some of y' all are like, oh, my God, you're grabbing money and everything's behind a paywall. No. Nothing has changed.

[Sabrina]

Oh, you guys are saying that about us?

[Corinne]

Yeah, people say that about us.

[Sabrina]

Well, stop.

[Corinne]

Well, stop it. Stop it. We'll punish you. We'll stick your little booties.

[Sabrina]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

Turn around with our unmanicured nails.

[Sabrina]

Say, yes, mommy.

[Corinne]

Say, yes, Mommy.

[Sabrina]

Give you a little tickle. Spiders crawling up your pet. Spiders crawling up your.

[Corinne]

How could you be mad at this cutie? No, but I did want to clarify. We have added new subscriptions, so, like Apple plus subscription, where you can get episodes one week early and ad free. And then the bonus episode that has always existed behind a paywall on Patreon.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. Maybe you just didn't pay attention to Patreon, and that's okay, but the bonuses have existed for a few years only. There.

[Corinne]

And also, let me just be very clear to you. We have over 104 free episodes produced for you every single year. Over.

[Sabrina]

Yeah, I understand that it's confusing because it's like suddenly you get. Your podcast feed is showing that there's, like, an episode behind a paywall. Your schedule hasn't changed at all. It's just now you're seeing something that you didn't know maybe existed before, that always did. But it was on Patreon. But now we're giving you access.

[Corinne]

Exactly.

[Sabrina]

On a different platform.

[Corinne]

Exactly.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. Nothing's changed. You're not forced to Pay any extra money? No, you just got to wait a week. Which you already were doing.

[Corinne]

You were already doing.

[Sabrina]

And now you know you are. Yeah. Which is what's bothering you. So if you just pay a few dollars a month, your bothers could go away.

[Corinne]

Yeah. And then on Patreon, we have so many bonuses. And this is part of running a business, is you have to make money, do operate a business, but we make it worth your time. And like on Patreon, we have book clubs, we have campfire stories, like live interaction.

[Sabrina]

I'm a toot our own horn because we had a meeting with someone who

[Corinne]

did an audit of our Patreon.

[Sabrina]

Yes. Who like, does a lot of Patreon memberships and is an expert there. And they were. They were aghast when they saw how many perks we had. They were like, this is. They were concerned for us.

[Corinne]

They're like, how do you do all of this?

[Sabrina]

And we were like, oh, we didn't know that. That was a lot.

[Corinne]

Yeah. So you're welcome.

[Sabrina]

The experts say it's great, but the.

[Corinne]

The point is that you don't have to pay. Sorry, what?

[Sabrina]

I spoke out loud.

[Corinne]

What'd you think about.

[Sabrina]

I need to read the book club. Book this in a couple days.

[Corinne]

It's literally in two days. Yeah, well, it's on Spotify.

[Sabrina]

I already bought it on Audible.

[Corinne]

It's free on Spotify.

[Sabrina]

Okay. Shit.

[Corinne]

But it's good as context. We're talking about we.

[Sabrina]

One of our perks here, which is book book club on Patreon.

[Corinne]

And this is the January book club book. So at this point when this episode comes out, it will have passed, but you can rewatch it. And then there will be a new book club book that we picked that we will be discussing in March. But we read. We used to live here for the January book club. And I learned Morse code for this because between every chapter there's like secret messages in Morse code.

[Sabrina]

Oh, really?

[Corinne]

Yeah. And I literally have a pen on my book and I've been decoding.

[Sabrina]

Whoa. So cool.

[Corinne]

It's very fun.

[Sabrina]

Which. Okay. Not to get on a side tangent before we like, we're ready to jump into the episode. I know. Like, we try to keep it brief in the top, but not today.

[Corinne]

Not today.

[Sabrina]

Have you been on the side of TikTok where there's this like one abandoned, boarded up house that is, I guess, for sale, but every single night someone. And they're like videotaping it every night for like months, someone is like flashing with the different, like, porch Lights and stuff.

[Corinne]

SOS I'm not there.

[Sabrina]

And people are, like, calling the police. And the police are like, it's boarded up. It's fine. It's empty. And then other people are, like, no, I think, like, people. People are being, like, trafficked or they're. And it's just, like, big drama where it's like, the. It's not being investigated properly.

[Corinne]

Where is the.

[Sabrina]

And yet there's a.

[Corinne]

Let's show up there.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. I don't remember off the top of my head, but it's like, one of those things where it's just the frustration of, like, it not being actually investigated, truly looked into and investigated fully when it's. It seems like there's someone kept in this house that for weeks is trying to send out a message. And then it's like, now it's on the Internet. How long is the delay between, like, maybe whoever is causing the danger to the people in that house discovering that

[Corinne]

it's on the Internet?

[Sabrina]

That it's on the Internet?

[Corinne]

Let's hope it's just a paranormal thing.

[Sabrina]

I sure hope so. Damn.

[Corinne]

Okay, well, that's sad.

[Sabrina]

Sorry. Oh, Morse code. Yeah. Someone's being kept in an abandoned house and no one's helping.

[Corinne]

Um, I really don't know how to transition from that to this, but. So we're just gonna say, hey, now it's time for the ghost story. All right, everyone, forget what Corinne just told you.

[Sabrina]

Well, there is a small ghost. Never mind. What?

[Corinne]

You have a ghost story?

[Sabrina]

Sort of.

[Corinne]

What?

[Sabrina]

My mom was hearing voices last night when she was staying here.

[Corinne]

What kind of voices?

[Sabrina]

Well, it was after, like, Jessama. She's like. She's like you. She's constantly being like, you have to cleanse your house. Like, it is so bad here. Like, whenever we can open the windows in the spring, we'll do it. But it was. I told Sabrina this earlier. I won't go into details. I had a terrible nightmare. And in the night, what also was scary in the nightmare is I was in my own body. So it wasn't like I was, like, seeing myself normally. Like, I was. I was in the same view that I am in my body now.

[Corinne]

Oh. That's how all my dreams are.

[Sabrina]

Oh, really?

[Corinne]

You, like, see yourself from a pov, like an aerial perspective. Oh, interesting.

[Sabrina]

Those ones, I feel like I'm controlling. Like, I'm in charge of the dream and my little avatar self. In this one, I was, like, fully, like, I was in my own body, but essentially, like, the gist of the dream was I Thought I was having a panic attack. Ended up, like, seizing and then suddenly being able to see all the spirits at my house. And they were warning me that something was coming for me and was going to try to attack, and they were going to try their best to protect me, but they didn't know if they could. And I woke up because Noah, at that moment, had also woken up, like, in the height of my, like, scared dream. And he's, like, screaming, which is.

[Corinne]

This is the second time you guys have had.

[Sabrina]

This is, like, the third time.

[Corinne]

A shared experience with dreams. Like, he's almost picking up on your nightmare.

[Sabrina]

Yeah, like, my nightmare. And then he's terrified. So I go in, tend to Noah. An hour later, he's up again in his crib. So my parents were here, and I go in. Cause my mom's like, if you need help, like, let me know. So I go. And I was like, mom, can you go in this time? I'm scared. He put himself back to sleep in the moment that I was asking my mom to go help. So then I go back to bed, and my mom says, like, within that, like, next, like, 20, 30 minutes, she was hearing a woman speaking here and there, like, intermittently.

[Corinne]

I mean, I think you need to listen to your mother. We need to cleanse your house.

[Sabrina]

I know, but it's too cold. I can't open the windows.

[Corinne]

You can do it for, like, 20 minutes.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. I mean, the spirits of the house are, like, literally warned me.

[Corinne]

Yeah. Everything is saying, yeah.

[Sabrina]

It was crazy, too, because it was like I was seeing everyone. It was like that scene in Ghosts where it's like Sam first sees all the ghosts, and they're all, like, taken aback just as much that, like, she can see them. And it was totally like that. Like, I was seeing all these different people. There was a couple, a man and a woman.

[Corinne]

Don't you wish there was, like, moments like this that you were a really good drawer?

[Sabrina]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

And you could just sketch them all so you remember their favorite. Yeah.

[Sabrina]

You could, like, videotape your dreams so you could rewatch them like a homeless black mirror.

[Corinne]

Um, okay, well, I don't. Stay tuned on what's coming for Corinne now.

[Sabrina]

How do we transition from this one?

[Corinne]

All right, well, today, like we said, we are talking about an inspiring story to honor Black History Month. And I'm gonna just paint a picture for you to get us into is late. As patrons pour out of the doors of the Madam Walker Theater, staff can't help but listen in on conversations, catching snippets of Praise for the evening's performance. The opera was brilliant, the performances, heart wrenching. One patron even gives their rendition of the closing ballad. It's shrill. But the staff loves how the performance has left an impact on all those who came to watch it. The last of the theatergoers exit the building and staff members lock the main doors. They assist with the departure of the cast and crew. And soon the theater is empty. It's dark, quiet. The ghost of the evening's activity still palpable on the walls. The staff does their final check on the building, getting ready to head home themselves. But there's one task left. The most important of all. To turn on the ghost light. See, while they may be leaving the theater for the night, locking up an empty building, they know it is never really truly empty. For when night falls upon this building, when the patrons, the cast and the crew depart into the dark, something remains inside. Something or someone not of flesh and bone, but of spirit. Strong and resilient. Madam C.J. walker, the woman for which the building was built by and is named after, her spirit walks the halls of the theater at all hours of the day and night. And while her hauntings have touched many, sometimes literally.

[Sabrina]

Wow.

[Corinne]

It's her story that truly touches the world. She didn't just build a theater, she built a sanctuary. A place where black artistry, ambition and excellence were allowed to exist loudly. Madam C.J. walker fought to create in a world that tried to silence her. So this is her story, and it is utterly inspiring. So like we said, in honor of Black History Month, we are exploring the haunted Madam Walker Theater in Indianapolis, Indiana, and telling the story of Madam C.J. walker, who is the first female self made millionaire in the United States.

[Sabrina]

Whoa. Yeah.

[Corinne]

Mind blowing.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. That's incredible.

[Corinne]

As you will hear, her story is so powerful. She is and was so powerful that she is truly still with us, both literally and figuratively, because her spirit has been seen. We'll start with a little introduction to the theater, and then I'm gonna give you a whole her whole story because it's just incredible.

[Sabrina]

Amazing. So the Walker, I'm like, how do you get the title Madame?

[Corinne]

She picked it.

[Sabrina]

Oh, so we could be madams.

[Corinne]

We could change our names to Madame.

[Sabrina]

I don't have dresses that fit Madame. Madame.

[Corinne]

I feel like these outfits don't give Madame. They give Old Maid.

[Sabrina]

I was the same sweatshirt every single recording. And I like. It's so ridiculous because it's so cold in here. So we just have to. But like, sometimes I do put an effort and like, wear normal tops and, like, change the top I have underneath this. But you would never know because it's cold. So I'm going to put on my sweatshirt.

[Corinne]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sabrina]

Madame.

[Corinne]

Madame.

[Sabrina]

Let's just get sweatshirts. Say madame.

[Corinne]

Okay. That's how we. That's how we become madams.

[Sabrina]

All right.

[Corinne]

The Walker Theater is now known as the Madame Walker Legacy Center. It was built in 1927 based on plans that Madame C.J. walker had created. She was an incredible and inspiring black woman.

[Sabrina]

And.

[Corinne]

And this was built in downtown Indianapolis, Indiana. It is one of the few remaining African Art Deco buildings in the entire United States and was designated a National historic landmark in 1991. Since its opening in 1927, it has been an integral part of the Indianapolis community. And the stage has seen the likes of Nat King Cole, Ella Fitzgerald, and so many jazz greats. Dang.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. Oh, that is something. If you had a time machine to go back and see. I know those people singing live. Oh, I can't even imagine. Like you'd feel like even just thinking about it. Yeah, like my body's like vibrating. Like the richness of their voices.

[Corinne]

And this building continues to be a beacon of inspiration, progress and artistic excellence, and is the last surviving iconic building on Indiana Avenue. So the center is dedicated to preserving the history of the building, championing the artistry and the legacy of Madam C.J.

[Sabrina]

walker.

[Corinne]

Which is why we are gonna talk all about her. Because I too am like, let's make sure we never forget this woman.

[Sabrina]

Amazing.

[Corinne]

The first female self made millionaire was a black woman.

[Sabrina]

Unfortunately, I'm included in here, probably the majority of listeners. This is gonna be the first time they ever heard about it.

[Corinne]

100%. Yeah. Yeah.

[Sabrina]

Where is this? In history class? Right?

[Corinne]

This is why I like to think of two girls and one ghost. A little bit of like a history class.

[Sabrina]

It is.

[Corinne]

We do deep dives. We're not always perfect, but we really try to get the whole story.

[Sabrina]

Okay.

[Corinne]

As I've said a million times, and we'll continue to say a million times in this episode, she's a fucking goddamn legend. All right.

[Sabrina]

That's the tattoo, her face, and then, fucking Goddamn legend

[Corinne]

Madam C.J. walker was born, named Sarah Breedlove on December 23, 1867, on a Delta Louisiana plantation. Her parents names were Owen and Minerva Breedlove. And Sarah was one of six children. And Sarah was the youngest. And she was the first and only child in the family born into freedom because the Emancipation Proclamation was issued by President Lincoln in 1863. And Sarah was born in 1867.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Corinne]

So prior to her birth, her parents and older siblings were enslaved by a man named Robert W. Burney on his Madison Parish plantation. After the Civil War, Sarah's parents worked as sharecroppers. And then Sarah was born in 1867. So, yes, although she was born into freedom in quotes, like the idea of that was true, she was still born into a world very, very deeply shaped by slavery and deeply rooted in racism.

[Sabrina]

And just because the Emancipation Proclamation existed did not mean for a lot of people that they were free.

[Corinne]

No. And her parents still worked as sharecroppers on a plantation. They were not financially independent in any way.

[Sabrina]

No.

[Corinne]

Yeah. Society was still deeply oppressive. Her family, like I said, was still working and living on a plantation where they had been previously enslaved. They didn't own property, didn't have economic independence. So family was. And their community was the most important part of their lives. Unfortunately, when Sarah was only six years old, her mother Minerva died of cholera in 1872. Did I say it right?

[Sabrina]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

I always say it wrong, but I did it right.

[Sabrina]

I think sometimes you say cholera.

[Corinne]

Yeah, right.

[Sabrina]

I don't know.

[Corinne]

You said it right, but I said it right.

[Sabrina]

Cholera.

[Corinne]

Because you always correct me. So I always wait. It's always that word you like, stop and wait for me to do it.

[Sabrina]

Cholera.

[Corinne]

Cholera.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. You did it. Yay.

[Corinne]

So her mother sadly died when Sarah was just six years old. Her father remarried, but died one year later in 1873. So by the age of seven, Sarah Breedlove was an orphan.

[Sabrina]

Oh, my gosh.

[Corinne]

Seven years old.

[Sabrina]

Did she get to stay with her siblings?

[Corinne]

She did move to Mississippi and lived with her older sister and her brother in law. But unfortunately, her brother in law was a. An abusive prick.

[Sabrina]

Oh, yeah.

[Corinne]

So she's seven years old. She's living with her sister and her brother in law. She begins working as a domestic servant. She's a child. She had very little to no formal schooling. I think she said that she had in total like three months of formal schooling.

[Sabrina]

Wow.

[Corinne]

But she would take literacy lessons at the church that she attended regularly during earlier years. So like I said, her time with her sister and brother in law was rough because her brother in law was abusive. And so Sarah knew she had to get out of the situation. She's around like 13, 14 at this time. And she knew that the only real way out was getting married. So at 14 years old in 1882, Sarah married a woman, Married a man named.

[Sabrina]

Oh, shoot. I was like, yes.

[Corinne]

No, she made it.

[Sabrina]

She's safe.

[Corinne]

So in 1882, when Sarah was only 14 years old, she married a man named Moses McWilliams, whose age is never really documented, but I imagine he's much older. There's not much about their relationship together. They did have a daughter who they named Laila, who we'll talk about later in the story, but she goes by a Laila. Yeah, a apostrophe.

[Sabrina]

Layla.

[Corinne]

It's a beautiful name. In 1887, so five years after getting married, Sarah's husband Moses died. So she's now 19 years old, a widow, and a single mother to a daughter who's 2 years old.

[Sabrina]

My God, what a tough life.

[Corinne]

Yeah. So as you can see, like, literally my next sentence is like, her upbringing was difficult and full of adversity. She was forced to be resilient, to move, to start over, to persevere, because she had no choice but to. I have been on a mission to find the best bras and underwear, and mission complete because we found skims.

[Sabrina]

I've been seeing a lot of people try skims online and just, like, all these videos and stuff and for finally you. And I did order some. I put them on. These are so stretchy, so comfortable. Also seamless.

[Corinne]

I just shopped the Fits Everybody collection, and I bought, like, every type of underwear they have, but I love their thongs, and they're boy shorts. It fits your body and moves with your body. It feels like magic.

[Sabrina]

It does.

[Corinne]

They're so comfortable, you forget that you're wearing them. Especially their bralettes.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. And also, as someone who deals with some weight fluctuation, I was like, oh, this is the underwear that actually will, like, grow and shrink with you.

[Corinne]

We're never gonna go back to anything else. We love skims, and we think you will too. So you can shop Skims Fits everybody [e-mail]. after you place your order, be sure to let them know that we sent you. You can select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the dropdown menu that follows the

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[Corinne]

When her first husband died, she moved to St. Louis, Missouri, where all four of her brothers worked as barbers. She found a job as a laundress and a cook and joined the African Methodist Episcopal Church. And this is, like, a very transformative phase of her life because it's here that she finds a community with other black men and women. She's exposed to, like, a new way of life and new way of thinking. It's this time where a fire was lit under her, where she was like, I deserve more, and I can achieve more. I can do more. I. I just have to work my ass off for it.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. Which, like, she's a child, too. Yes. A young child. Like, that's. It takes a lot. A lot.

[Corinne]

And she was really, really determined to build a better life for her daughter. She worked for as little as $1.50 per day, but she did save enough money to send her daughter, Layla Alela, to get an education in the city's public schools. She then married a man named John Davis. Again, I couldn't find much on this relationship, but the men in the story are not the important ones. She.

[Sabrina]

Skip.

[Corinne]

Skip. Yeah. Like, literally the only sentence was got married to this man named John Davis. But it was troubled. They later divorced. So I don't know the full details, but now it's the early 1900s. Sarah's a single mother still struggling financially, working hard, laborious jobs, long hours, and this stress and strain was manifesting physically. She was losing hair, and she was having a lot of scalp issues, which was a common for a lot of these people who were working really hard hours, didn't have access to, like, the best clean water or products.

[Sabrina]

Because humans are not meant to be like this.

[Corinne]

No.

[Sabrina]

We're supposed to frolic in meadows. We're supposed to share our eggs with our neighbors.

[Corinne]

We live in peace. She found a product called the Great Wonderful Hair Grower, and she started using it. And this is by a company called Poro System or by Poro. And this woman who created it is an African American businesswoman named Annie Turbo Malone, who she also is an inspiring woman in her own right. She ended up creating financial independence for thousands of women, including Sarah Breedlove. So Sarah. Oh, my gosh, Starts using this product.

[Sabrina]

So she was, like, kind of like the first ever mlm, but without being an mlm.

[Corinne]

Totally. Yeah, totally.

[Sabrina]

It's like you bring. Bring everyone on to sell your products. You get a. A pink car at the end.

[Corinne]

It kind of is. Yeah, it kind of is like that. It was a good.

[Sabrina]

But.

[Corinne]

It was like a good.

[Sabrina]

But a good one.

[Corinne]

A good one.

[Sabrina]

Yes.

[Corinne]

So Sarah finds this product, she starts using it for her own hair, and she also joins Malone's sales team. So she starts going door to door selling this product.

[Sabrina]

She.

[Corinne]

She learned sales techniques, marketing strategies. She started to build financial independence through this job. And one year later, in 1905, Sarah moved to Denver, Colorado, where she met and married an ad man, an advertising man named Charles Joseph Walker. And it's at this time, when she marries Charles Joseph, C.J. walker, that she changed her name to Madame C.J. walker.

[Sabrina]

So she still working that job?

[Corinne]

Yes, but she marries Charles Joseph, and she's continually trying to, like, grow her hair back. So she starts to experiment with her own formula. She has Annie.

[Sabrina]

She was selling a product that she wasn't actually.

[Corinne]

Sure. No, it worked. It did. There is a little bit of drama here.

[Sabrina]

Okay, we'll get.

[Corinne]

We'll get there in a second.

[Sabrina]

All right. Oh, wow.

[Corinne]

But so she's basically experimenting with a similar formula to the great, wonderful hair grower that Annie Malone.

[Sabrina]

She's taking the Krabby Patty recipe, and she's adding a little dancing extra. Got it.

[Corinne]

And then she found something that worked. She married an advertising guy. She had learned a lot from her time working for Annie Malone.

[Sabrina]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

And Sarah, or I guess now at this point, Madam C.J. walker has an idea.

[Sabrina]

Wait, but she's living in a different state at this point. Right, but.

[Corinne]

So these companies are doing door to door sales all over the country.

[Sabrina]

Oh, okay. So it wasn't just, like, specific to, like, a region, like a small region.

[Corinne]

These are, like, national.

[Sabrina]

How are they gonna know what she does? Got it.

[Corinne]

Yeah. So her idea is to start her own hairline. So now her and her husband become a power couple. Madam Walker took all of her knowledge from her time working with Annie Malone and the desire to create more hair treatments, combined with her husband's marketing and advertising expertise. And she launches her own line of hair products and straighteners for African American women. And it is called. Keep in mind the product. Annie Malone's product is called the Great Wonderful Hair Grower. Madame Walker's is called Madame Walker's Wonderful Hair Grower.

[Sabrina]

Oh, that's a little too close.

[Corinne]

I did have to look it up because in Most stories, no one mentions this, but I'm like, Annie Malone must have been pissed.

[Sabrina]

Right?

[Corinne]

So, yes, it did cause some drama. Malone did accuse Walker of stealing her formula and her business model. But yes, there was drama. But the beautiful part of the story is that both businesses did thrive.

[Sabrina]

Okay.

[Corinne]

So if one didn't, maybe I would feel differently. But both companies did become that.

[Sabrina]

It's like she's being blatant about kind of ripping off the other company. But at the same time, I don't entirely blame her for her own formula because, like, look at half the products out there. Most of their ingredients are gonna be the same. It's just about like adding an extra this or that or like the, the amounts. But it's not like there's some magical new concoction of entirely different ingredients that

[Corinne]

do the same thing.

[Sabrina]

Like.

[Corinne]

Right.

[Sabrina]

All the products are gonna be similar. Yeah.

[Corinne]

I think it was especially spicy tea because at this time, there are probably only two black women in this business.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. And she definitely didn't sign that. Non compete. No, no.

[Corinne]

So, yes, there was definitely real competition between the two. But I. I think what is beautiful about this is that two black women were able to build successful business empires in a racist male dominated business world. And they both employed thousands of black men and women and created this, like, whole new avenue of professionalism that didn't exist before. And what set Madam C.J. walker apart was how she built and scaled her business. With the help of her husband in advertising, he helped establish a mail order business as well. He also helped her with all the marketing and stuff. And her products promoted health and were designed specifically for black hair and scalp health. So her first product, Madame Walker's Wonderful Hair Grower, was a scalp ointment that you were supposed to use alongside other products. So she built like a whole self care regimen.

[Sabrina]

And also like depending on your hair type and everything, like, there's so many different variations.

[Corinne]

Right.

[Sabrina]

There's no one size fits all. No. It is so hard to find, like the right thing for your own head and hair.

[Corinne]

And I think that was like the one thing that really set her apart is that she wasn't just trying to sell one product. She was trying to sell like education too, of like how to take care of your hair.

[Sabrina]

Right.

[Corinne]

And this is an entire regimen. This isn't just like one thing. It's like, use this with this and this. Or depending on your issue, use this with this instead.

[Sabrina]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

So Madame Walker is selling a whole regimen and she is selling her products door to door. She began to train other black women to sell for her and created like this army called the Walker agents. That's what they were called. They would go door to door.

[Sabrina]

That sounds kind of scary.

[Corinne]

I know. The Walker Agents, but it also has like a like sophistication. Madame sophistication to it.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. You know, it feels very like Men in Black to me, where it's like someone's just like coming out. Like I pictured them all like in suits and being like, what do you know? Knock, knock, knock.

[Corinne]

Well, picture like these are beautiful black women who are being empowered for the first time to have.

[Sabrina]

You could sell me anything.

[Corinne]

And Madame Walker trained them. So she has like these sessions where she trains them not just on how to be saleswoman and go door to door, but she trains them on business matters, on sales, bookkeeping. Like she is providing a whole education. It's like business school that never existed, especially for women.

[Sabrina]

I love that. Yeah, yeah. So it's like if they. Yeah. Setting them up to go out on their own if they ever want to start their own business.

[Corinne]

Totally. She supports it.

[Sabrina]

That's how you make good friends.

[Corinne]

She also taught them grooming and hygiene techniques so that they could sell those to their potential patrons. And by the 1910s, there were thousands of Walker agents operating across the US, the Caribbean and Central America. She opened beauty schools where women could become certified beauty culturists. She truly.

[Sabrina]

She's expanding.

[Corinne]

She's expanding and she's building an entire career path for black women.

[Sabrina]

Oh, my God. Yeah. All while being a mom.

[Corinne]

All while being a mom. Yeah. She also was a branding genius. She was one of the first women just generally like first women, first people to put her own face on her products. She also was one of the first people to use before and after photos as like proof of it working. She also ran newspaper ads to target potential customers.

[Sabrina]

People who are in like marketing, like business marketing degrees. Do you learn about her?

[Corinne]

I doubt it.

[Sabrina]

This feels so important to like the core of understanding.

[Corinne]

Do marketing people do like history of marketing or do they just focus on how to market today?

[Sabrina]

Good question. I don't know. I never took a class.

[Corinne]

Me neither. Yeah, but one of the articles that I found was like, she basically was using modern day influencer techniques, but in the 1910s.

[Sabrina]

That's amazing.

[Corinne]

Like a whole decade or a whole century before that I even existed.

[Sabrina]

And there was just so much emphasis on like beauty standards and looks back then to. Not that there's not today, but like

[Corinne]

in a different way.

[Sabrina]

Yeah, yeah.

[Corinne]

In 1910. Madam Walker and her husband got a divorce, but she kept the name Madam Walker, especially now that's like her whole business. And she continued to build her empire. After the divorce, she relocated to Indianapolis, Indiana and built a factory for her company. And it wasn't just a random, oh, Indianapolis sounds great. No, this area, especially Indiana Avenue in Indianapolis, was becoming this really important black business and cultural centers, like one of the most important in the Midwest. There were various black owned companies laying roots here, specifically on Indiana Avenue. And so it's here that Madam Walker moved her company headquarters because she saw an opportunity, but she also saw responsibility. And this is what I love about her. She is not selfish. She's not like, there's only room for one of us here. She is constantly paving paths that other people can walk alongside her.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. Good in heart, great in heart.

[Corinne]

She continued to build and advocate for black women's economic independence. And as her wealth increased, so too did her philanthropic and political outreach. Her company was never just about selling products. It was about building something bigger for black women and the black community. So it's here, while in Indiana, that Madam Walker began to give back. She funded black institutions, supported black newspapers, donated to schools, churches, civil rights organizations and so much more. She joined the Bethel AME Church, donated $1,000 to the new Senate Ave. YMCA. She also decided around this time that she wanted to build something bigger on Indiana Avenue. A place that could function as a headquarters not just for her company, but for the black community in general.

[Sabrina]

Dang. This is very. I mean, obviously she came before these people, but it's reminded me so much of like, the work Prince did, of what like Dolly Parton does, where it's just like, it's for the good of everyone else. It's not for like, the public. There's perception of who she is. It's just like, how much can I do to better everyone else in my community and like, share what I have to make everyone else feel better and do better and have better opportunities.

[Corinne]

I wish every person could just be a fraction of her.

[Sabrina]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

And have that mentality, all while looking great. Yeah. So she is looking around and she does travel a lot. She's doing a lot of. She like, starts speaking on panels and she gets involved in politics. She, like, she goes back and forth between Harlem. She loves New York and Indiana. She's traveling for work, but she sees Indiana Avenue and she's like, I feel like there needs to be a space where people can come together for everything, for the arts, for meeting, for business and just Community in general. And it's also around this time in 1914, she visited what was called the Isis Theater in downtown Indiana. And it was a usual stop. She loved going to see the cinema and the movies. And this one day, she goes, she goes up to get a ticket, and the man who's working there, this like, white man goes, oh, the price has changed for black people. You now have to pay 25 cents. But the price didn't change for whites. According to legend, that moment she refused to pay. And she went back to her office and had her attorney sue the Isis Theater. And then she decided, fuck it, I'm gonna create a theater of my own.

[Sabrina]

Fuck, yes.

[Corinne]

Yeah.

[Sabrina]

I love it. Cause it's like a little bit done in spite, but, like, it's like, because I can. Because I can. But then it also just like, benefits everyone else in the end.

[Corinne]

Oh, exactly. Yeah, totally. So, yeah. So as legend goes, on this day, when the price change for blacks, Madame Walker decided that her community center that she was imagining and trying to build in Indiana, on Indiana Avenue, would have its own movie house. Throughout the next few years, Madam Walker began to acquire land along Indiana Avenue with the intention of building a massive multipurpose complex. And as she's gathering this land and making plans for this building, she's splitting her time between Indiana and New York and she builds a stunning estate in Irvington, New York. It's called Villa Laro. And it is. It's still standing today. It is the most beautiful. Look at this place. It feels Gatsby esque. Look at this picture.

[Sabrina]

This is like a place that people get married at.

[Corinne]

Oh, it's stunning. And it's truly a physical symbol of everything she accomplished. Like, she is the face of a rags to riches story where she was born on a plantation where her parents had previously been enslaved.

[Sabrina]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

Into a world that in, like, her whole life, even today, we live in a very, like, racist society. And she was facing it in, like, the worst of it, you know? So I think it's absolutely incredible that this villa exists and that she was able to build it for herself. She would host people here. She would spread her wealth and knowledge through the black community. And by 1918, Madam Walker was at the center of black cultural and political life. And she's continuing with her plans to build this cultural center in Indiana. But unfortunately, she never sees it come to fruition in life because on May 25, 1919, Madam C.J. walker died at the age of 51 due to kidney failure and complications from high blood pressure. She died in her home in New York in Villa Loro. And you would think perhaps her spirit lingers at the villa, but no, because Madam Walker had a dream. And even though she never saw it come true in her life, she made sure it came forth and she oversaw its completion in her afterlife.

[Sabrina]

Wow. Damn. This girl needs to rest. Like she deserved it. But she.

[Corinne]

I do think she. She's still very much a workaholic, and that is ingrained in her spirit, but she very much enjoys. And I think this is the beauty of it, is, yes, she worked her ass off, but she enjoyed what she did.

[Sabrina]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

And I think even now in the afterlife, she seems to be enjoying all that she built.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. So getting to witness other people, like, build their dreams.

[Corinne]

She loves to oversee and watch other people excel.

[Sabrina]

Love it. I have been dealing with ocd, I guess, a lot of my life, but officially went and got seen about it when I was 14. And I feel like there's a lot of misconceptions about what OCD is. And I will say, while I thought I had it under control, having a child and being postpartum has totally shaken all of that up. And suddenly, like, the anxiety, the OCD triggers have been a little bit all consuming, I guess, to put it. So that's where no CD comes in. And it's something that I think is super important and we should definitely talk about. OCD is a serious and highly misunderstood condition. But with the right kind of help from a specialized therapist who truly understands what you're experiencing and is trained to treat it, OCD is extremely manageable at no cd. That's no C D. Every therapist deeply understands ocd. And what's great is the therapist, like, truly deeply understand OCD and. And how it attacks the things that you care about most and how to help you get back to living the life that you want. And NOCD accepts most major insurance plans and is covered for over 155 million Americans. And NOCD makes sure that you're supported between sessions. So they have these powerful in app tools as well, such as therapist messaging, peer communities, which I found really helpful, and also life support groups. If you're ready to start getting help from a therapist who truly understands OCD, visit nocd.com to book a free call. That's asking n o c d.com now, if you've been a long time, two girls, one ghost listener. You know that Sabrina has a beautiful Siamese cat, Leia, who kind of got conditioned to realize when we were wrapping up our podcast, episode recordings and would be very very vocal asking for her Smalls when we were wrapping up. So people would tell us all the time that their cats loved listening to our episodes because Leia would scream at the end. But she was not screaming for ghosts. She was not screaming for us. She was screaming for Smalls. This podcast is sponsored by Smalls Smalls Fresh Cat Food is protein packed recipes made with preservative free 100% human grade ingredients that you'd find in your fridge and it's delivered right to your door. And that is why cats.com named Smalls their best overall cat food. And for a limited time you can get 60% off your first order plus free shipping when you head to smalls.com forward/tgog and starting with Smalls is super easy. You can just share information about your cat's diet, health, food preferences and they put together a personalized meal plan for your cat and if your cat is anything like Leia they will go ballistic over it. And after switching to smalls, 88% of cat owners reported overall health improvements, which is a really big deal. And the team at Smalls is so confident that your cat will love their product that you can try it risk free. So stop guessing which meals upset their stomach for a limited time because you are a two girls one ghost listener. Get 60% off your first order plus free shipping when you head to smalls.com forward/tgog one last time. That's 60% off your first order plus Free shipping when you head to smalls dot com forward slash tgog and the

[Corinne]

first person she oversaw and watched Excel was her daughter Alela, who became the president of the company when Madam C.J. walker passed away. So Alayla, along with the company attorney and General Manager Freeman B. Ransom, saw to it that Madam C.J. walker's vision came to life. Together they decided to begin construction on this center that her mother had always dreamt of. On a triangular shaped lot that Madam Walker had purchased. Not too long after the incident at the Isis Theater, Alela Walker commissioned the local architectural firm of Rubbish and Hunter or Rubesh. I don't know how to say it, but I kind of like Rubbish. To design a 48,000 square foot building that they would name the Walker Building to honor her mother. This building still stands. It is massive. It is a block long four story building located at 617 Indiana Ave. And the doors first open in December 1927, eight years after Madam C.J. walker died. But this building became everything she dreamt of and more. Like I Said in the beginning of the episode. This is like one of the last African art deco buildings that still exists today. It was built and reinforced with concrete yellow brick faced walls. And it has two main facades. It includes storefronts and then a theater with a stage, emergency exits. There's terracotta architectural details around the ground level. The decorative elements contain African, Moorish and Egyptian motifs and geometric lines like. So this building kind of inspired today's shopping malls. Oh, it's massive. It had a drugstore, a salon, a beauty school, a restaurant, professional offices, a ballroom, and a 150 seat theater.

[Sabrina]

Oh, wow.

[Corinne]

Yeah, it's.

[Sabrina]

In my mind it was like just a theater.

[Corinne]

No, it is everything.

[Sabrina]

Because she wanted a space where everyone could come together.

[Corinne]

She wanted it to be more than just a theater, more than just the headquarters for her office. She basically wanted a. A place where she could do everything she wanted to do in one place, which was help other people have a beauty school, go to the theater, have a ball. Because she loved her little, like gatherings and galas.

[Sabrina]

Socialize, socialize, entertained.

[Corinne]

There were restaurants. Yeah. And upon opening In December of 1927, it became one of the most important black cultural and business landmarks in the Midwest. And so now, as context, 1927 Jim Crow laws are very, very entrenched in society and heavily practiced throughout the United States, which meant segregated schools, segregated housing, segregated restaurants, theaters, hotels, hospitals. Discrimination was rampant. And also so was violence against blacks. It's like a. I can't even. It's just horrible. And so Indiana, where this building is opened, had one of the largest KKK memberships in the country. So as you can imagine, the black community here, I mean, everywhere, lived in constant state of fear, hyper awareness and surveillance. So during this era, black people and travelers were often refused service at hotels, businesses and restaurants, which meant traveling in the United States became a really dangerous thing. You didn't know where you could be safe and black. Success was often met with suspicion and violence. So when black people traveled the country, they had to be hypervigilant. In 1936, Victor Hugo Green published the Green Book. It was first published in 1936. It listed businesses that would serve black travelers safely. Listed in the Green book were many businesses along Indiana Avenue. It and the Madam C.J. walker Theater became a place of refuge. And it was a place that people knew was safe when they were traveling through Indianapolis. By night, the Walker Theater glowed with jazz and laughter. There were lines literally down the block. And by day, the building buzzed with business training, organizing legends of jazz and entertainment Came to the Madame Walker Theater. Duke Elling, Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald, like the greats, Nat King Cole, everyone I mentioned in the beginning.

[Sabrina]

Wow.

[Corinne]

And it's also, I mean, like, so devastating because these artists, everyone loved them. They were able to perform and sell out white venues, but they were not allowed to stay at hotels by those white venues.

[Sabrina]

It's like that movie that's like, all about that experience, the Green Book. Oh, yeah,

[Corinne]

the movie called Green Book.

[Sabrina]

Yeah, that one. I didn't remember the name of it, but yeah, that's it. Yes, that's it.

[Corinne]

So the Walker Theater offered something rare in segregated America. It offered everything all in one. I don't think there was a hotel, but it was a venue. Restaurants, businesses, like, everything existed there. And it stood as a physical representation of everything. Madam C.J. walker believed in, that black excellence didn't need permission to be. It just needed the space. And she imagined the space, and her daughter made the space come to life. It was a major hub for black cultural and commercial life through the 1950s. But then in the 1950s, the buildings and surrounding neighborhoods began to shift, especially with. And this is something I learned when I was in Minnesota, like, a lot of the highways were built to specifically split, like, segregate communities and, like, cut off access from black communities to, like, the central areas.

[Sabrina]

Oh, my God.

[Corinne]

And that was what happened in Indiana, too. So a lot of communities were literally, like, kicked out. Similar to, like, Lake Lanier. The. They just wanted to build highways and things for the white community. And so they would just literally uproot the black communities.

[Sabrina]

That's like, I can't. The amount of effort put in to just. It's horrible. Yeah.

[Corinne]

So due to this, the theater closed in the 1960s and was about to be demolished in the 1970s because it had fallen into disrepair. But then enter a nonprofit group that literally formed to save the building. In 1979, they began restoration on the building and established the Madame Walker Urban Life Center. They fought to protect the building. They were able to get it added to the National Register of historic places in 1980, and they reopened the building in 1984 and reopened the theater in 1988. In 1991, the building was designated as a national Historic Landmark and has continued to operate under the same values and wishes of Madam C.J. walker. So truly. Almost a century after Its opening in 1927, the Madame Walker Legacy center, as it is now called, continues to operate as a live performance venue, A community art tub, offers cultural education and community centered programming, and it is completely dedicated to preserving the legacy of Madame Walker.

[Sabrina]

Wow. Incredible. I'm so glad it was saved.

[Corinne]

I know.

[Sabrina]

This feels like a place that you should go on a school field trip for. Sure.

[Corinne]

And I looked up their schedule. I think when this episode comes out, there's like an opera happening.

[Sabrina]

Fancy.

[Corinne]

Yeah. And then there's like orchestras who come in and perform. But it seems like they're doing such a good job of upkeeping the legacy and the dream that Madam Walker wanted, that she is right there watching it all happen.

[Sabrina]

Of course.

[Corinne]

And her spirit resides in this building.

[Sabrina]

So the ghost light is specifically for her? For her.

[Corinne]

But there are other spirits. Oh, yes. So from the very beginning of this building being opened, I think even during construction, people have made comments about hearing and seeing things, especially when they're alone in the building. There have been reports of visitors seeing shadow people sitting in the theater seats and standing on the stage itself. There's this one story of a woman who was attending some event, like a gala or something at the building, and she decided to just, you know, give herself a little self guided tour. And she walked into the theater and when she's looking down over the seats, she sees two people sitting in the seats. And then she sees two people sitting on the stage. And one of the women she looks at and she's like, kind of taken aback because she looks so much like Madam Walker. In a blink, all four people. People gone.

[Sabrina]

What kind of meeting were they having?

[Corinne]

I don't know. Talking about the night's performance.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. Testing out the acoustics. Making sure everything's perfect.

[Corinne]

Right. And staff, performers and caretakers alike all report very similar things. Footsteps in empty hallways, doors opening and closing on their own. Lights turning on after hours. And the feeling of being observed. And not in a scary way, but in a like, almost like authoritative, like, supervisor way, which I love because she's. She's still making sure everything is done right. Right.

[Sabrina]

No funny business.

[Corinne]

No funny business.

[Sabrina]

Building.

[Corinne]

No. And then there is a very common sighting of a woman in period clothing. She's always very well dressed. She's seen in various spaces in the building, but most commonly in the theater and upper levels of the building. And there's no way to confirm 100% that it's vanilla C.J. walker. But everyone thinks it is. Everyone agrees it is. That she has come to watch her daughter construct and give way to the dream she had. And that she loved it so much that she stayed.

[Sabrina]

I mean, everything makes sense there, like who she was, how she spent her time, what motivated her, what she Loved.

[Corinne]

Who wouldn't want to stay and watch Nat King Cole perform Like Ella Fitzgerald.

[Sabrina]

Oh, my gosh.

[Corinne]

She loved watching the musicians perform. And she also championed black businessmen and women. And so I think she just continued to do so in the afterlife, of course.

[Sabrina]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

Everyone agrees that while perhaps there are multiple spirits present in the building, Madam Walker is most prominent. And she is simply guarding and overseeing the space because she cares about it deeply and is always watching it. Has reported that activity increases during renovations. Like, she's making sure everything is done properly. During large events, she likes to mingle and observe. And she's just watching the.

[Sabrina]

She's socializing. She was a networker and she works out now.

[Corinne]

Yep. So whether you believe in the paranormal or not, there is no doubt that the spirit of Madam C.J. walker is very much alive and thriving in the Madam Walker Legacy Center. She is an inspiration. She has this beautiful rags to riches story, and she made sure to give back to others and pave paths for others to walk alongside her. So the staff here always remembers to leave the ghost light on for Madam C.J. walker to wrap up this episode and again emphasize just how fricking inspiring and badass Madam CJ Walker really was and is like, I hope to be a fraction.

[Sabrina]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

Of the type of woman that she was to give back.

[Sabrina]

She's incredible. Yeah.

[Corinne]

She's an inspiration. At its height, Madam Walker employed 40,000 African American men and women.

[Sabrina]

Wow.

[Corinne]

She founded the National Negra Cosmetics manufacturers association in 1917. And as her wealth increased, so too did her philanthropic and political outreach. She became active in the anti lynching movement. She donated $5,000 to the NAACP's efforts. And just prior to dying of kidney failure, she revised her will and bequeathed two thirds of any future net profits to charity. Two thirds.

[Sabrina]

And it all started because she was looking for something to help her hair health. I'm sure she would have found a different reason or avenue to like make all of this happen anyway, but like, how incredible that it just snowballed into this huge thing where it's like it wasn't just about one company. It was about very quickly became like, how do I use business and networking to benefit my community?

[Corinne]

Yeah. And to educate others.

[Sabrina]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

Yeah. She only had three months of formal education and she, at the time of her.

[Sabrina]

Learned to read in church.

[Corinne]

Yeah. At the time of her death on May 25, 1919, her combined personal assets were valued at over $1 million, which earned her a place in the Guinness Book of World Records as the first female self made millionaire in The United States. Not just the first black female self made millionaire. First female self made millionaire generally in the United States. Madame Walker, a woman who was born to formerly enslaved parents on a plantation that her parents had previously been enslaved on, a woman who endured adversity, racism and abuse, became the first self made female millionaire in the United States. A fucking icon.

[Sabrina]

Seriously.

[Corinne]

I don't think her hair product brand still exists like the Madame C.J. walker brand. But there is a new beauty and hair care line called Madame by Sundial Brands, which I think is the same one who does like shea butter, Shea moisture. Yeah, that sort of. There are 11 products that are available online in 3,000 stores nationwide and online on Walmart.com.

[Sabrina]

damn.

[Corinne]

Her story isn't just history. It's a reminder that we do not need to accept the limits placed on us. That we can continue to open doors, we can build our own wealth while giving back and providing opportunity for others too. She opened doors and she built something that others continue to walk into. And that is powerful.

[Sabrina]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

So the last sentence I will say for this portion of her story is going to be a quote from Madam C.J. walker herself. She said, I am a woman who came from the cotton fields of the South. From there I was promoted to the washtub. From there I was promoted to the cook kitchen. And from there I promoted myself into the business in manufacturing hair goods and preparations. I have built my own factory on my own ground. Yeah.

[Sabrina]

Incredible. It's just so wild because, like, not only was she born into the world that she was born into, but like,

[Corinne]

she also became an orphan, I know,

[Sabrina]

very young and was around abusive men,

[Corinne]

married at 14 years old.

[Sabrina]

It was just like thing after thing after thing so easily.

[Corinne]

Yeah.

[Sabrina]

Could this have not happened for her?

[Corinne]

She made it happen.

[Sabrina]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

And made it happen for so many

[Sabrina]

others and set her daughter up for a much better life.

[Corinne]

Yeah.

[Sabrina]

Dang. That is a good story. So uplifting. Coming off of Lake Lanier too. Thank goodness.

[Corinne]

I know. I was like, you know, we wanted to feature some stories for Black History Month and I. There's so many houses that were on the Green Book.

[Sabrina]

Or like, there was one that I was doing, but I took it away because it was like the reverse underground railroad. And I was like, this is too depressed.

[Corinne]

And then there's also so many plantation stories.

[Sabrina]

You gotta balance it out. Right.

[Corinne]

But no, I'm so glad that I found her story and I hope it touches you. Maybe her spirit will touch you if you go to the theater.

[Sabrina]

Goddamn. Fucking badass.

[Corinne]

Yeah. Goddamn legend.

[Sabrina]

Wow. Amazing. Okay, well, I was like, this happens in Indianapolis. Why don't I pull up a listener story from Indianapolis? Would you believe it if I told you, in our entire inbox, we only have 11 emails from Indianapolis? Or at least with the word Indianapolis.

[Corinne]

Well, what about Indiana?

[Sabrina]

I didn't search. I was looking for Indianapolis.

[Corinne]

All of you from Indianapolis, where are you hiding your stories?

[Sabrina]

Yeah, I was like, I cannot believe this. This is from Morgan, who lived in a haunted place in Indianapolis.

[Corinne]

Love it.

[Sabrina]

Hi, ladies. I just started your podcast recently. I'm a few years behind, but so far I'm loving it. I listened to your dream episode, and I have a few dreams to share with you. I lived in Indianapolis by myself for the first time ever in this little studio apartment on the south side. I always had an uneasy feeling at night. Whether it was just me overthinking the fact that I was alone or it was really something, I'm not sure. But usually on the weekends, I went home to visit family, and then I'd come back, and my apartment would always feel like someone had lived in it while I was gone.

[Corinne]

Oh, it's so unsettling.

[Sabrina]

It smells like.

[Corinne]

That's not just like a because you live alone.

[Sabrina]

That's a. I'd also be scared that someone actually was breaking in because of this next sentence.

[Corinne]

Oh, no.

[Sabrina]

It smelled so strongly of cigarettes, and I don't smoke, and people were not allowed to smoke inside the building.

[Corinne]

But that is also such a ghost trope to smell like cigarettes.

[Sabrina]

True. It honestly maybe could have been some workers because there were people working on the building, and it was just a weird place to begin with. Anyways, dream number one. I'm in my bedroom. I'm awake and only able to lift my head up when this elderly lady with gray straight hair holding my mirror that I had in my room started screaming at me to look in the mirror at myself several times while pushing the mirror strongly towards me.

[Corinne]

No, don't look in the mirror.

[Sabrina]

So I finally got out of this sort of trance. I woke up, like, I was never asleep, super creeped out. And then I just hid underneath my blankets and fell asleep. The second dream I had, I was in my bedroom again, and I wasn't able to get up. In the dream, there was a section of blinds in my window with a space big enough for someone to peek through. And this man was looking at me through the window, which was directly across from my bed. And in the dream, all I could see were his eyes and the outline of his cheeks. I looked multiple times at the man, and he never broke the stair. And when I did wake up, the blinds were exactly how they were in my dream, Separated enough for the man to look in. I was pretty crazy about the window due to it being right where people could see in. So I know for a fact that it was closed all the way before I went to sleep. I haven't lived there in a couple years now, and I haven't had any kind of dreams like this since. Super creepy. But the woman and the man's faces, they still stick with me. Love the podcast. Morgan. Morgan. I don't think these were dreams. I think this was paralysis, given that you couldn't move in both situations.

[Corinne]

And also to kind of full circle here. Corinne, your dreams are for sure messages, too, and hauntings. And the same as Morgan.

[Sabrina]

Morgan. Yeah.

[Corinne]

You are both haunted.

[Sabrina]

I like how Morgan's like, oh, these are my dreams. So I was. I was frozen in space and I couldn't move, and I felt like I was awake and I saw these weird things, and then when I woke up, it was exactly how it was in my dream. That was sleep paralysis. That was a haunting.

[Corinne]

You want to believe it was just a dream.

[Sabrina]

You want to believe you were asleep,

[Corinne]

especially when you're alone, is so creepy.

[Sabrina]

Yeah. Like, look. Look at yourself.

[Corinne]

Look at the mirror. Which also makes me think, like, she's like, come into the portal. Come into this other side.

[Sabrina]

I was like, what? What would Morgan have seen if she looks? It's almost like a dark scrying mirror. It makes me wonder, like, what would have been shown. So creepy.

[Corinne]

Very creepy.

[Sabrina]

And the strong smell of cigarettes, the window being open so that that guy peeking in was.

[Corinne]

It does feel like there's two specific ghosts, and they're both terrifying.

[Sabrina]

I know.

[Corinne]

I want to know where this building is and look up the history of that area. Also, I'm sure other people in that building.

[Sabrina]

Was it in the south side? Yeah, on the south side. Yeah. And that it was a weird building. Strange building to begin with. So much history in that place, too. Yeah. I'm so curious. The guy looking in the window reminds me a little bit of Gerald's game. Like that.

[Corinne]

Oh, I was thinking Golden State Killer.

[Sabrina]

Oh, I was just thinking, like, in Gerald's game, she doesn't believe that that guy is real. She thinks that she's, like, seeing a ghost, but someone was actually entering.

[Corinne]

Terrifying.

[Sabrina]

Not to spoil a book that's been out for a long time or a movie that's been out for a few years, but.

[Corinne]

Well, if you have any hauntings from Indianapolis. If you have any paranormal stories at all. If you just feel super freaking Inspired by Madam C.J. walker and her story, let us know. You can email us at 2girls1ghost podcastmail.com youm can also add your thoughts in the comments. If you're watching on YouTube or on Spotify, let us know what you think. We care. We care about your thoughts and you can join us on Patreon. Like we said in the beginning, nothing has changed for the usual things that you listen to, but you can get bonus content. You can get episodes one week early and ad free on Patreon. And there's book club and so many other things. If you so desire, shout out to

[Sabrina]

Jamie Ryan and to Emma Laventer who help us and are on our team. Thank you for producing the podcast and helping it exist. Yes and thank you to all of you listeners who are really the only reason this exists.

[Corinne]

We love you all so much and

[Sabrina]

we will see you on the other side.

[Corinne]

Very spooky.

[Sabrina]

Thanks for listening.

[Corinne]

We love to hear your stories and your feedback. So we have a little survey for you. Please visit two GOG fans to take our Listener survey. That's the number two the letter G O G Fans to take our listener survey.