By Order of the Faithfuls: The Fan Favorite w/ Stephen Fishbach

Summary

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Two Ts In A Pod: By Order of the Faithfuls — The Fan Favorite w/ Stephen Fishbach

Podcast: Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge
Host (for this episode): Wells Adams and Dolores Catania
Guest: Stephen Fishbach
Release Date: March 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

This lively episode of By Order of the Faithfuls brings Survivor legend Stephen Fishbach into the fold to unpack behind-the-scenes dirt and firsthand strategies from his time on the show. Wells Adams and Dolores Catania lead a candid, humorous, and insightful discussion on what really goes down on Survivor, from the physical and psychological challenges to the art of strategy—and even the, well, bathroom logistics. The group also explores the parallels and differences between Survivor and other reality competition series, discusses the culture of fandom, and highlights Stephen’s new novel, Escape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Survivor’s Physical and Psychological Demands

• Initial Reactions and Physical Toll

  • Dolores expresses awe over the cast’s endurance:

    “People poop their pants this time. I give them so much credit. You know, I'm just overwhelmed with everything that's going on. I could not do it.” (02:48)

  • She notes that despite extreme conditions, not everyone is an athlete, pointing out the diversity of Survivor contestants.

• Mental/Emotional Strain

  • Stephen highlights the complex emotional landscape, especially regarding forming and betraying alliances:

    “You are cuddled up close in the shelter, it's freezing out, it's raining, you're shivering together, and then the next day, you're lying to each other's faces and betraying them... the money is so transformational that you literally are destroying someone's dreams when you vote them out.” (21:15)

2. Bathroom Logistics on Survivor (Deep Dive!)

• Fans’ Burning Questions

  • Wells opens the door:

    “Can we go back to him shitting his pants? I have so many questions about like, logistics of like, how this all works.” (13:20)

  • Stephen answers with candor and detail, outlining how contestants mostly use the ocean, emphasizing its relatively antiseptic quality.
    • “Most people will go in the ocean and poop… There is Purell. Like in your med kit, there's Purell. So after you poop, you know, you go and Purell your hands. But you know, you also like wipe off in with the silt of the ocean.” (13:46)
    • Special ‘poop zones’ are established on the beach (“Deuce Iteria”), while in jungle locations, contestants dig holes and use leaves, which he surprisingly compliments:

      “The leaves were actually, like, lovely. If I think someone can make a fortune and, like, leaf toilet paper, it was like, there was soft.” (15:15)

• Illness and Hygiene

  • Sickness is less about viral infections (the game environment is isolated) and more often due to environmental stress, dehydration, or eating the wrong things—such as coconuts:

    “Coconuts are a laxative. And so if you're, like, only eating coconuts, you know, you lose some control.” (16:02)

3. Survivor’s Game Strategy and Social Dynamics

• Old School vs. New School Play

  • The panel discusses the evolution and depth of Survivor strategy, the emotional investments contestants make, and how connections outside the game shape in-game alliances.
  • Stephen remarks on the importance of forming real friendships to create strong alliances:

    “Alliances are like friendships first. You know, you have to have those deep emotional connections in order to build those alliances.” (22:52)

  • He admits to overstrategizing the second time he played:

    “I totally like, I was planning like too far out. And then you lose sight of what's happening right in front of you…” (22:52)

• Returning Legends vs. New Players

  • On why legends like Boston Rob, Sandra, Tony, and Parvati aren't in the current season:

    “…They’re such icons and you do sort of want to see new things and to see new players… it's fun to see new players get the chance to shine, which maybe it would be harder to do when they're so in the shadow of somebody else.” (17:33)

4. Fandoms and Internet Culture

• Survivor Audience vs. Real Housewives
  • Stephen finds the Survivor fanbase more positive than other reality show fandoms:

    “I actually feel, weirdly, the Survivor audience is, like, really lovely and kind for the most part, you know, and, like, they see the nuance and, like, the best of people… in terms of general Internet toxicity, I feel like they're actually sort of like the cream of the crop.” (08:08)

  • Dolores and Wells compare notes, with Dolores joking about the difficulty of voting people off and her own reluctance as a housewife.

5. Behind-the-Scenes: Production, Confessionals, and Manipulation

• On Producer Involvement
  • Dolores asks whether producers influence gameplay. Stephen says Survivor and Traders are “hands off”:

    “The format itself is so good. Like, the format drives the conflict. You don't need to, like, put your thumb on the scale.” (29:08)

  • He discusses the subtle influence of confessional interviews, saying questions can “shape your thinking.”
  • On being awkwardly posed for on-camera interviews:

    “So much of it is about the light… but they do sort of, like, pose you. So there were all these, like…you're like, yeah, like it's so uncomfortable sometimes.” (29:31)

6. Stephen Fishbach’s Book: Escape

• About the Novel
  • Stephen plugs his new novel, inspired by his Survivor experience:

    “It's about a 40 something has been reality contestant who goes back on his jungle themed survival show. It's fictional, it is not autobiographical.” (26:57)

  • The protagonist faces off against a manipulative producer (with its own twists).
  • Available in print and as a popular, well-narrated audiobook:

    “It's got a great audiobook, and it's actually won a bunch of audio prizes… Julia Whelan… is one of the key narrators… It's… there's multiple narrators, and it's got a great cast.” (28:05)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “People poop their pants this time. I give them so much credit.” — Dolores Catania (02:48)
• “I think this is… very Traitors-like, the show… they're vicious. They're going through people’s bags.” — Dolores Catania (04:18)
• “Even as it is sort of what you have to do to be a part of this game… money that's gonna, like, pay off your father's debts, you know? Oh, sorry… you need this for medical treatment for your child. Well, I gotta vote you out.” — Stephen Fishbach (21:57)
• “Most people will go in the ocean and poop… You use leaves to, you know, wipe yourself. Yeah, and the leaves were actually, like, lovely.” — Stephen Fishbach (13:46, 15:15)
• “If you're thinking of going on Traitors, anybody — watch [Survivor] first!” — Dolores Catania (04:53)
• “I was not looking back, looking to go back to Survivor, but when it did turn out to be a fan vote, I just thought it would be a really neat thing to have that opportunity. It ended up being a totally disastrous season for me.” — Stephen Fishbach (07:33)
• “Do they producers step in every once in a while? ... I do think the Survivor producers… or really hands off because, like, the format itself is so good. Like, the format drives the conflict.” — Stephen Fishbach (28:59)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:35 – 05:00: Wells and Dolores banter about Survivor’s challenge and personal limitations
• 06:07 – 09:01: Stephen Fishbach’s Survivor career; fan vote, TV legacy, and audience culture
• 13:20 – 16:02: Behind-the-scenes on, literally, “pooping on Survivor,” hygiene, and illness
• 17:14 – 18:21: Missing Survivor legends this season — is that a good thing?
• 18:35 – 22:15: Game alliances, returning players, emotional realities of the competition
• 22:52 – 23:39: Strategy pitfalls, overthinking, and alliance-building advice
• 26:55 – 28:34: Stephen’s book, Escape: plot details and audiobook rec
• 28:35 – 30:14: Reality TV production: interview setup, producer influence, and confessional mechanics

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Conclusion

This episode expertly blends humor, nostalgia, and rare behind-the-scenes insight into the world of Survivor and reality TV. Stephen Fishbach’s candidness both delights and informs, providing fans with a peek beneath the surface of game strategy, production secrets, and the psychological rollercoaster of reality competition—all with plenty of laughs and a memorable amount of leaf-based toilet paper talk.

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Transcript

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[Wells Adams]

welcome in all you faithfuls, traders and survivors, another episode of By Order of the Faithfuls. Wells Adams, here alongside Dolores Catania. We are in episode two of Survivor. Dolores, how are you liking the show so far?

[Dolores Catania]

Well, there's a lot of crazy things going on. People poop their pants this time. I give them so much credit. You know, I'm just overwhelmed with everything that's going on. I could not do it. I absolutely. I have a lot of respect for them doing it. And then, you know, they're doing really extreme physical things on this show, but. And nothing against anybody. I'm not in shape, but a lot of people are not athletic here. It doesn't seem to me. There's a few, but not everybody looks like they're running marathons. We have a very, you know, diverse cast. Physically diverse cast.

[Wells Adams]

Yeah, it's fair. You wouldn't want to do it. I was watching last night talking to my wife, and she's like, how's it going? I haven't watched, you know, Survivor since, like, the first season. And I was like, you know, I really like this show and I feel like I would do really well on it. And then she retorted with it's all a political game and you got kicked out of Traitors on the second episode. You'd be terrible at this. And I said, well, hold on. I didn't really get a fair shake 2. I do think that I'm really good at, like, I'm. I'm really good at camping. I'm good at, like, being out in the elements. I'm good at fishing and hunting, and I wouldn't have a problem, like, sleeping on the beach. I think I could do it. I don't know. Should I apply for this show 100%?

[Dolores Catania]

I think you could do it. I think this is. This. This is very. Traitors like the show.

[Wells Adams]

Yeah, for sure.

[Dolores Catania]

You know, at the end when they vote somebody. Mean the games, though, they're. They're vicious. They're going through people's bags.

[Wells Adams]

Oh, yeah.

[Dolores Catania]

See, had I been more familiar with this gameplay, I've watched a few season, a few episodes over the years, but I didn't get into it. But now I'm getting into it, I would have handled the Survivors players very different. Yeah, I would have never believed Danielle

[Wells Adams]

Or Carolyn on Traders.

[Dolores Catania]

You're saying on Traders. Yeah, had I watched this, this. If you're thinking of going on Traders, anybody watch this first?

[Wells Adams]

Yeah, I 100 agree and probably watch Big Brother too because yeah, they are exactly. Yeah, they are cutthroat and yeah, there are no holds barred. I'm excited about today's show. We're going to have one of the legends from Survivor on in Stephen Fishback. He's a push cart prize winning writer and former television executive. A two time Survivor. Contested voted onto the show the second time by more 10 million fans. He finished as runner up on his first season and finished in ninth place on his second season. In 2009, he was named one of People magazine's hottest bachelor. Sorry, ladies. Yeah. He now lives in Washington D.C. with his wife and two daughters. Fortunately, he's off the market. Ladies. Stephen published a fictional novel last month called Escape which follows a has been reality TV star that hits a little closer to home and a disgraced producer who gets one last shot at redemption on his set on a remote island, obviously influenced by his time on Survivor. Stephen. Welcome to by order of the faithful, Survivor edition. Stephen, how are you, buddy?

[Stephen Fishback]

I'm great. I'm so thrilled to be here chatting with you guys. This is wild.

[Dolores Catania]

We're so happy to have you and thanks for your time. I mean, I know you're really busy writing books and being the hottest bachelor in people magazine of 2009. I mean that makes you busy. But we know you're off the market now.

[Stephen Fishback]

A lot has happened since 2009. Yeah. And even then there was really some questions. I don't, I think that ballot was a little bit questionable, I think.

[Wells Adams]

Yeah, yeah, it was, it was, it was like you, Leonardo DiCaprio, George Clooney and Stephen Fishback.

[Stephen Fishback]

Yeah, I mean it was a bad year. It was a bad year for us. They had 45 and then they were like, how do we fill this out with just not.

[Dolores Catania]

Well, own it.

[Stephen Fishback]

To be clear, I was dressed up as Gilligan in, in that episode of People. So it was not exactly my hottest moment. Even as Bachelor.

[Dolores Catania]

That hysterical. Well, hey, you were on an island and you were deserted on a deserted island, but you did very well one day on that island. Stephen, I'm out. And we're excited about the new book. I can't wait to. I want a signed copy. I'm gonna send you my address.

[Stephen Fishback]

It's on its way. All right.

[Dolores Catania]

All right, cool.

[Wells Adams]

Yeah, we were talking about it before we started the show. You kind of downplayed it, like, oh, I was just runner up and then I got ninth. But you were voted by 10 million fans to rejoin the Survivor cast in your second opportunity on the beach. That must have felt really cool to have that many people behind you.

[Stephen Fishback]

It really was awesome. I mean, and honestly, part of the reason I went was because it was a fan vote. Like, to me, that seemed just cool to be a part of. Even if it happened, you know, I would be able to be talking about it a decade later and say, like, oh, the fans voted me, and how cool is that? So I was not looking back, looking to go back to Survivor, but when it did turn out to be a fan vote, I just thought it would be a really neat thing to have that opportunity. It ended up being a totally disastrous season for me. For what it's worth, I'm still mad at those fans.

[Dolores Catania]

That's okay. It still makes good tv. And your fans are savage. Like, they. They love you one second, and then the next minute you could fall from grace for nothing.

[Stephen Fishback]

Well, it does seem like the Internet generally is. Is that way, but I actually feel, weirdly, the Survivor audience is, like, really, like, lovely and kind for the most part, you know, and, like, they see the nuance and, like, the best of people. And honestly, like, as like an, you know, in terms of, like, general Internet toxicity, I feel like they're actually sort of like the cream of the crop,

[Dolores Catania]

not like they're not trying to destroy your. Your life. Yeah, yeah.

[Wells Adams]

Doris, what are you talking about? You're on Real Housewives. Like, that. That fan base,

[Dolores Catania]

I just look at all. All like. Yeah, it's just. But, you know, I. I just. I would want to keep everybody. I don't want to vote anybody out, you know.

[Stephen Fishback]

Well, you guys were executing, you know, you were, you know, banishing and killing.

[Dolores Catania]

It's a hard thing to do. Yeah, it really is.

[Wells Adams]

So Survivor 50, we're in the second episode. Are you offended? You weren't. You weren't invited on this season, or were you and did you turn it down?

[Stephen Fishback]

I was not invited, and I made it very clear to them that, like, I was not looking to go back. So, like, that's what I tell myself is the reason they didn't invite me. But also, they've got a lot. Like, since I was on, you know, 10 years ago, there's been a lot of, you know, skinny strategy nerds. So they've. They've got a really rich. Yeah, we saw there's some great nerds this season. You know, with Christian in this last episode.

[Dolores Catania]

But you didn't poop your pants.

[Stephen Fishback]

Well, I took my pants off, but I did have a stomach issue.

[Wells Adams]

Yeah.

[Stephen Fishback]

In fact, Christian's confessional about it where he mentions gastrointestinal distress was a reference to my confessional 10 years ago, so.

[Dolores Catania]

Oh, I love a good reference.

[Stephen Fishback]

I really am the right person to talk about about this episode. But like I sort of touched by his beautiful homage to one of my finest moments.

[Dolores Catania]

Oh, I love it. Well, you have a lot of I feel like even in we have a lot of survivor references in movies and things like that, don't we?

[Stephen Fishback]

Yeah, it's really such a cultural, you know, touchstone these days, I think.

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[Wells Adams]

Can we go back to him shitting his pants? I have so many questions about like, logistics of like, how this all works.

[Dolores Catania]

He does, yes.

[Wells Adams]

Okay, so are, are you guys, are you guys pooping in the ocean? Are you digging cat holes in the beach? Or is there a porta John that they, they say don't talk about because we only want people to know about it for just like health reasons. What's happening in the bathroom sector of Survivor?

[Stephen Fishback]

This is great. I'm so truly happy to be talking about this. It's a really, it really is a really interesting subject because I want to know too. Like people want to know when there. So now Survivor only films on a beach, right? And actually the ocean is a relatively antisept, septic place to poop. And I think most people will go in the ocean and poop, okay. You know, simply because of like the, the salt water salinated. There is Purell. Like in your med kit, there's Purell. So after you poop, you know, you go and you know, Purell your hands. But you know, you also like wipe off in like with, with the silt of the ocean, you know, just to like Sort of. This is really getting quite graphic quite fast. But, you know, it's important.

[Dolores Catania]

So.

[Stephen Fishback]

And. And then, you know, there. There was one time when Monica, from my second. Both were sort of, like, pooping at the same time. And we just made clear to steer, you know, be far enough away that we each had our own personal space, you know, within that.

[Wells Adams]

Do you guys have, like, a portion of the beach where you're like, okay, down there is where the toilet is, but not here, because we fish over here.

[Stephen Fishback]

Yeah. You don't want to be where, you know, things are going to wash up on shore, I think.

[Dolores Catania]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

[Stephen Fishback]

Yeah. Okay. But back in the day, so my first season, I was not on an island. I was in Brazil. So, like, you know, we didn't want to poop in the river, which was actually, you know, a little bit less antiseptic, I guess, than the ocean. I honestly do not have a medical degree, so, like, please don't take any of this as, you know.

[Dolores Catania]

No, it makes sense, though. Yeah.

[Stephen Fishback]

So we would dig holes, and we did have sort of like, a portion of our kind of area. Like, that's what we call the Deuce Iteria, where we went and pooped. And you use leaves to, you know, wipe yourself. Yeah, and the leaves were actually, like, lovely. Like, if I think someone can make a fortune. And, like, leaf toilet paper, it was like, there was soft.

[Dolores Catania]

It was, you know, given enough for patent that.

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I mean.

[Dolores Catania]

I mean, D was actually talking about that, I believe, in the first episode, how you do wipe yourself with leaves.

[Stephen Fishback]

Yeah, it's great. It's very. They're wonderful. Yeah.

[Wells Adams]

But do people get sick a lot there? Because, I mean, yeah, sure, you have Purell and stuff, but I imagine you're just not as clean as you normally would be. And I could see people getting, like, stomach bugs and getting, like, knocked out for those reasons.

[Stephen Fishback]

Well, honestly, because it is sort of a closed environment. You're not getting, like, you know, the flu. Flu. Yeah, exactly. Or cold. I mean, people get staph infections. When we've seen a lot of people get medevaced with staph infections over the years. I think the bigger issue is, like, stomach things just from, like, ambient environmental stressors. Like, I think with Christian, the issue was probably they were eating a lot of coconuts. And coconuts are a laxative. And so if you're, like, only eating coconuts, you know, you lose. You lose some control. But, you know, there's also issues with, like, hydration. Like, weirdly, if you're not getting enough hydration. Right. You can get stomach sick. And so there's just like, you know, if you're eating kind of like. Yeah. Like food that's, like, maybe not perfectly preserved, you could not feel so great in your stomach. So. And you saw that some of these people are drinking sour Coke sources.

[Wells Adams]

I wanted to ask you about that because I was like, well, surely this is going to give you guys diarrhea if you're drinking, like, it's moldy coconut milk.

[Stephen Fishback]

Yeah. I think that I trust Christian as a scientist that, you know, to be fair, he's a robotic. So he's not a coconut scientist. But I do think that he knows better than to drink a sour coconut if it's sour. Like, that's your body saying, like, no.

[Dolores Catania]

Yeah, yeah, right, Fair enough. But.

[Wells Adams]

So one girl was like, this tastes good. I like this. Tastes like. Going back to this cast, you know, are you surprised that some of the biggest names aren't there? Like, Boston Rob's not there. Sandra, Tony, Parvati. Like, are you surprised that those guys aren't there?

[Stephen Fishback]

I mean, in some ways I think it's good because they're such icons and you do sort of want to give, you know, to see new things and to see new players. And, you know, I feel like when they're there and I. I'm, you know, I think for maybe more casual fans, they want to see the big names, and that's how I probably would feel, you know, for the shows that I'm a casual fan of. Like, I love to watch the challenge, and I, you know, I want Wes on. On the screen. You know, I want to see CT again.

[Wells Adams]

Yeah.

[Stephen Fishback]

But for me, because I think I'm, like, deep in it. Like, it's fun to see new players get the chance to shine, which maybe it would be harder to do when they're so in the shadow of somebody else. I mean, Siri is one of the legends of the game, and you just see her, like, running circles around these people, you know, like, we only want, like, one or two cerise on the cast.

[Wells Adams]

Yeah.

[Stephen Fishback]

To, like. But, like, you just see how completely dominant she is. She's always been one of the best, and she also has years and years of experience.

[Wells Adams]

You brought up the challenge, a show that I. I love a lot, too. And. And. And one of the things they do on the challenge is the veterans usually always kind of go after the newbies. Is that something that happens in Survivor a lot, even if it's not, like, unspoken?

[Stephen Fishback]

Yeah. I mean, I think what's interesting about Survivor and that that's not the case for the challenge is first of all, I think everyone's a little more strategic on Survivor.

[Wells Adams]

Yeah.

[Stephen Fishback]

So like the new players on the challenge are like, they're just like wide eyed sheep. You know, they're like what, what's going on around me. They. But I do think people on Survivor are a little savvier and because there are, you know, fewer of those old schoolers. But, but you know, I, I think those bonds also run deep. You know, you see that siree and Ozzy are just have a bond from having played for decades together, like literally decades. And it's funny to me that, you know, three of my real life best friends on this cast are Rick Devins, Christian and Emily Flippin and somehow they don't see that. You know, they think Surya's their buddy and they're like, should we vote out Ozzy? And no. And I think that was really interesting, the fact that you lose sight of everybody's history when you're out there and you think it's this little self contained bubble, but it's really not. And these relationships from outside the game really do persist into the game.

[Dolores Catania]

Yes.

[Stephen Fishback]

Have much more reality TV experience than I do. Like, what's your perspective in terms of how much you can see the thing happening in front of you with all these other relationships outside of it?

[Dolores Catania]

I think it hazes it. I think it's hard.

[Wells Adams]

I mean, like I've done what, eight seasons, nine seasons of paradise and everyone seems like its own little nucleus of, of fun, you know, and so everyone bonds really well together. So I understand like when, when these tribes are, you know, like crying over someone leaving over, you know, popping an Achilles and all this, I can totally rationalize that. And I think for the, the viewer that hasn't been on the show is like, this is dumb. They just met or like they just started playing the game. So I can, I can rationalize it a little bit.

[Stephen Fishback]

Yeah.

[Dolores Catania]

But the old school players are like, you can't let emotions get in the game.

[Stephen Fishback]

Yeah, well, it's so interesting because then there's also. But on another level, like they're also much more in some ways emotional. I mean, we had that great scene with like Colby and Rizzo where Colby's like, you know, you've got hardcore and it's not emotions, I guess, but just like this sort of like Rizzo's like, I want to play a game, like I don't care about, you know, all this other stuff. Like I'm here to play, like, the strategic game of Survivor, and, you know, Colby's like, we gotta fish and hunt and be, you know, survivalists.

[Dolores Catania]

Yeah. Yeah. It's a. It's definitely bonding when you're in this, immersed in this thing, and you have nothing else going on. You don't have your phone, you don't have a tv, you don't have anything but what's there.

[Stephen Fishback]

Yeah.

[Wells Adams]

Looking back on. On your seasons, is there anything that you wish you had done differently or changed or are you happy with the way you played?

[Stephen Fishback]

Well, the second time, definitely there's some things I would have changed. I mean, honestly, my second time, I was, you know, it's. It's really emotionally challenging. I mean, as you. As you were saying, you know, to vote someone out, you know, is. Is hard. And I think that's magnified on a show like Survivor where you're literally relying on these people for, like, their body heat at night. You know, you are cuddled up close in the shelter, it's freezing out, it's raining, you're shivering together, you're holding onto each other, and then the next day, you're lying to each other's faces and betraying them.

[Dolores Catania]

It's a total mind.

[Stephen Fishback]

It is. And I mean, as you. You know, and the money, too, on Survivor is so transformational that you literally are destroying someone's dreams when you vote them out.

[Wells Adams]

Yeah.

[Stephen Fishback]

You're like, you. You know, this money that's gonna, like, pay off your father's debts, you know? Oh, sorry. Got. You gotta go. Like, you have, like, two moving a story. Like, oh, you need this for, like, medical treatment for your child. Well, I gotta vote you out, you know, and so, like, that is, like, a really difficult thing to do, even as it is sort of the what you have to do to be a part of this game, you know, what

[Dolores Catania]

you sign up for. But what would make anybody sign up for this? I mean, I get a lot of other things.

[Stephen Fishback]

Yeah, even.

[Dolores Catania]

But I am not signing up for this. But watch. I'll wind up on this show someday, maybe.

[Stephen Fishback]

I hope it happens. That would be great.

[Dolores Catania]

What makes someone say, I want to do this?

[Stephen Fishback]

I think it's the adventure. I mean, I love strategy games, but, I mean, I have to say, like, after that first time, I was really, like, shell shocked from it, and I didn't want to do it again. And I think I came in my second time a little bit less open. And you see how you really have to open yourself up to these people to have, you know, the capacity to form alliances.

[Dolores Catania]

Right?

[Stephen Fishback]

Like, alliances are like friendships first. You know, you have to have those deep emotional connections in order to build those alliances. And the other thing that I did wrong my second time, which I'm curious will happen, this game is like, I had a really powerful advantage. It was a steal a vote and I like lost sight of the game in front of me because I was already projecting out six. Oh, here's how I'm gonna use this at the final five. You know, so I totally like, I was planning like too far out. And then you lose sight of what's happening right in front of you and you see some people who have, you know, I wonder if that happened to Savannah where she has her block of vote this advantage and she like was not being open with it in a way that maybe she should have. And she loses sight of like the, the strategy that's happening right in front of her.

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[Wells Adams]

Tell us all about your book Escape.

[Stephen Fishback]

Oh thank you so much. Yes. So Escape is actually based on my life as, you know, part of this sort of reality TV universe. It's about a 40 something has been reality contestant who goes back on his jungle themed survival show. It's fictional, it is not autobiographical.

[Wells Adams]

And does this guy shit his pants at some point in the book?

[Stephen Fishback]

He has, yeah. And while there he faces off against a manipulative producer who's sort of like going through traumas of her own. So like obviously I've been a contestant on Survivor twice. I've been podcasting about this, you know, genre for decades. I was a TV executive and so I wanted to kind of like capture what it's really like to be on one of these shows in a way that I hadn't seen before in fiction. And so so far it's been going great. It was a bestseller and congratulations.

[Dolores Catania]

Thank you. That's Amazing. I'm very happy for you.

[Stephen Fishback]

Yeah, it's been an awesome ride so far. And, you know, for anybody listening, if you're interested in shows like Survivor, it might appeal to you.

[Dolores Catania]

I think it would appeal to me.

[Wells Adams]

I am highly dyslexic, so I listen to books on tape. Is this on Audible?

[Stephen Fishback]

It's got a great audiobook, and it's actually won a bunch of audio prizes. It won, like, the, I don't know, the Earphones award from Kirkus or something. So. Yeah. And it's got a great cast. Julia Whelan, who many people may know if they listen to audiobooks, who, like the New Yorker called the Adele of audiobooks, is one of the key narrators, and Sean Patrick Hopkins is another one, and he's, you know, won every award out there. So it's. Yeah, it's a guy. It's. There's a multiple. There's multiple narrators, and it's got a great cast. So actually, it's a fantastic audiobook.

[Wells Adams]

Okay, cool.

[Dolores Catania]

That. For my cardio, I have one question. Yeah. And I mean, maybe you can answer it, maybe you can't. It seems like, you know, sometimes producers step in in reality shows, Right. But in Traders, zero produced absolute less than zero. How about here? Did the. Do they producers step in every once in a while at all or.

[Stephen Fishback]

I mean, they're there, of course. They're asking interview questions. And I think that's something that's really interesting, and that's one of the things I explore in the book, which you guys are experienced with, like, way confessionals.

[Dolores Catania]

Yeah, yeah.

[Stephen Fishback]

And the way a question can kind of shape your thinking. But I do think the Survivor producers, and that sounds like the Traders producers, too, are really hands off because, like, the format itself is so good. Like, the format drives the.

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The.

[Stephen Fishback]

The conflict. You don't need to, like, put your thumb on the scale.

[Wells Adams]

Who decides where you do your interviews, Because a lot of times people are, like, awkwardly sitting on a tree, looking sideways. I'm like, why was this the angle that we thought was good.

[Stephen Fishback]

That's really funny. That is absolutely something. These are great observations. Yes. So you are sort of, like, led to by a producer, and you're like, pose there. And they're like, you know, it's. So much of it is about the light because, you know, you're outside, so it's like they've got, like a bounce which reflects the light from the sun. But you also, like, you know, they're aware of the shadows. You have to be far enough away. From camp so that you can't be overheard. Right. And nobody like kind of breaking off from camp is going to stumble on you where you are.

[Sonesta Advertiser]

So.

[Stephen Fishback]

Yeah, but they do sort of like pose you. So there were all these like you're like, yeah, like it's so uncomfortable sometimes. That's, that's really, that's a very funny episode.

[Dolores Catania]

That's the only produced thing. So it's good they don't get involved anymore because that's a rough one.

[Wells Adams]

Stephen, this has been so much fun talking with you and getting some behind the scenes stuff and hearing about all the stuff that you're doing, especially with your book Escape. We are going to ask you to stick around for our next episode where we're going to recap the entire episode two, which should be very fun. Everyone out there, thank you so much for listening to By Order of the Faithful, Survivor Edition. We'll be back again with more Stephen, who will be recapping episode two. See you guys.

[Stephen Fishback]

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[Stephen Fishback]

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[Stephen Fishback]

Check out Odoo at O D O o dot com. That's O d o o dot com.