Diamonds in the Rough: Trauma Bonds

Summary

Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge
Episode: Diamonds in the Rough: Trauma Bonds
Release Date: January 16, 2025
Host/Authors: Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge
Guest: Dr. Nadine Macuso

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Introduction

In the episode titled Diamonds in the Rough: Trauma Bonds, hosts Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge delve deep into the complex dynamics of toxic relationships through the expertise of Dr. Nadine Macuso. Dr. Macuso, renowned for her insights into trauma bonds and her personal experiences surviving an abusive marriage, provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the psychological traps that bind individuals to harmful relationships.

Meet Dr. Nadine Macuso

The episode begins with Erica (Teddi) introducing Dr. Nadine Macuso, affectionately known as Dr. Nay. Dr. Macuso shares her harrowing personal journey from a tumultuous eight-year marriage to Jordan Belfort—the infamous stockbroker portrayed in The Wolf of Wall Street—to her transformative path in healing and education. Her academic achievements include a master's in counseling, a PhD in somatic psychotherapy, and specialized training in the neuroaffective relational model. Dr. Macuso is also the author of Run Like Hell: A Therapist’s Guide to Recognizing, Escaping, and Healing from Trauma Bonds.

Understanding Trauma Bonds

Dr. Macuso provides a clear and insightful definition of trauma bonds, describing them as “a toxic, dysfunctional relationship between two emotionally attached people” where one partner exerts power and control over the other. She emphasizes two critical conditions that define a trauma bond:

1. Power Imbalance: One person holds and exploits power, whether through financial means, emotional manipulation, or other forms of control.
2. Intermittent Reinforcement: The abusive partner alternates between cruelty and generosity, creating an unpredictable environment that strengthens the emotional bond.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Nadine Macuso [05:48]: “A trauma bond is a toxic, dysfunctional relationship between two emotionally attached people… One person holds the power and they exploit the power.”

The Psychology Behind Trauma Bonds

The discussion delves into the psychological mechanisms that make trauma bonds so enduring and difficult to break. Dr. Macuso explains that individuals with personality disorders, such as narcissism and psychopathy, often recognize and manipulate these dynamics to maintain control over their partners. She describes them as “true con artists” who can present a charming facade (“Romeo”) while harboring manipulative and abusive behaviors behind the scenes (“Dirty John”).

Notable Quote:

Dr. Nadine Macuso [07:59]: “Animal trainers who use intermittent reinforcement... the animals bond to them 230% more than just straight kindness.”

Personal Stories and Shared Experiences

Erica and Tamra share their personal experiences with trauma bonds, describing the emotional turmoil and cognitive dissonance that arise from being in such relationships. They discuss feelings of loneliness, insecurity, and the struggle to reconcile the loving moments with the abusive ones. Dr. Macuso empathizes, highlighting that these experiences are common symptoms of trauma bonds, including complex post-traumatic stress disorder (C-PTSD).

Notable Quote:

Erica [18:02]: “I have a history in my life of meeting people and thinking that, I don't know, maybe it's that I'm not enough…”

Healing and Recovery

The conversation shifts to healing, with Dr. Macuso outlining steps for recovery from trauma bonds. She emphasizes the importance of self-awareness, therapy, and understanding one’s own personality traits and attachment patterns. Dr. Macuso also introduces her Pathological Lover Checklist, a tool designed to help individuals identify red flags in relationships.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Nadine Macuso [35:05]: “You have to know your attachment pattern… understand your developmental trauma. You have to understand yourself before you can really choose effectively.”

Practical Tools and Advice

Dr. Macuso offers practical advice for those looking to break free from trauma bonds and rebuild their lives. She encourages journaling as a means to process loneliness and advocates for trusting one’s instincts and bodily sensations over distorted thoughts exacerbated by ego and external pressures.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Nadine Macuso [36:38]: “Trust the body. Don't trust the mind because that's where the ego and all the distortions are, but the body doesn't lie.”

Conclusion and Empowerment

The episode concludes with affirmations of resilience and growth. Dr. Macuso shares that 75% of abuse victims experience post-traumatic growth when they actively engage in their healing process. She underscores the importance of self-trust, continuous personal development, and the belief that one deserves healthy, loving relationships.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Nadine Macuso [29:57]: “Victims of this sort of abuse... go on to experience post traumatic growth if they do the work.”

Final Thoughts

Diamonds in the Rough: Trauma Bonds offers a profound exploration of the intricacies of toxic relationships and the pathways to healing. With Dr. Nadine Macuso’s expert guidance and the hosts’ empathetic narratives, listeners gain valuable insights into recognizing, escaping, and ultimately healing from trauma bonds. This episode serves as an empowering resource for anyone navigating the aftermath of an abusive relationship, providing hope and practical strategies for reclaiming one’s life.

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Key Takeaways:

• Trauma Bonds Defined: Toxic relationships characterized by power imbalances and intermittent reinforcement.
• Psychological Impact: Leads to cognitive dissonance, loss of self, and C-PTSD.
• Healing Process: Involves self-awareness, therapy, and trust in one’s instincts.
• Empowerment: Emphasizes post-traumatic growth and the importance of continuous personal development.

Recommended Resource:
Dr. Nadine Macuso’s book, Run Like Hell: A Therapist’s Guide to Recognizing, Escaping, and Healing from Trauma Bonds, provides an in-depth exploration and practical tools for individuals seeking recovery from toxic relationships.

Transcript

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[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

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[Erica]

Hi, guys. Welcome to another episode of Diamonds in the Rough with me and Erica.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Hi, everybody.

[Erica]

We are bringing on Dr. Nadine, aka Dr. Nay. She is known to her patients as Dr. Nay. She is the real life inspiration behind naive Naomi Belfort's character in the Wolf of Wall Street. I mean, I think we all watched that movie with Margot Robbie and Leonardo DiCaprio, but it wasn't just a movie, it was actually real life. She survived a turbulent eight year marriage to Jordan Belfort marked by abuse, greed and trauma. Following her experiences, Dr. Macuso, which is Dr. Nadine, relocated to California. Her journey of trauma and healing inspired her to return to school at the age of 39, where she earned her master's in counseling and a PhD in somatic psychotherapy. She further specialized with a two year postdoctoral training in the neuroaffective relational model. She also has a book, Run Like Hell, A Therapist Guide to Recognizing, Escaping and Healing from Trauma bonds. At age 22, she married Jordan, the nefarious stockbroker portrayed in the Hollywood blockbuster the Wolf of Wall Street. The marriage began as a fairy tale, but once they were bonded, Jordan's mask be to slip. And acts of infidelity, narcissistic abuse, and insatiable greed and uncontrollable drug addiction became Nadine's nightmare. She's here, so I feel like she could give us more information than I can read off of her bio. So let's talk. Let's talk.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Hey, guys.

[Erica]

Hi.

[Teddy]

How are you?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

I'm good. How are you doing?

[Erica]

We're doing okay, but we would love to hear just a little bit of like your backstory and then we'll start asking questions and doing that kind of stuff, if that works for you.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Sure, sure. So, well, you know who I was married to.

[Erica]

Yeah, yeah. And hold on. He's a motivational speaker now, Correct?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Isn't that amazing? Yeah, he is. And so, you know, I met him when I was 22. I was so young and clueless. And this was 30 years ago, before anybody was talking about narcissism or trauma bonds or anything like that. Right. And so then I left him about eight years later and restarted my life in LA. I lived in Manhattan beach for 24 years. So my heart is broken for Los Angeles right now. And I went back to school at 39, got my master's, got my doctorate. And what was happening in my practice was I saw all these smart, kind, beautiful women coming in, being betrayed, having financial abuse, being lied to, being coercively controlled. And I was like, we have A problem. And I went back to the research and wrote my book, and now it's my specialty.

[Guest]

For any of us that are listening, could you explain what a trauma bond is? I think people look, I think they have an idea, but from an expert, you know.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yeah, sure, sure. So a trauma bond is a toxic, dysfunctional relationship between two emotionally attached people. There are a few things that make it different. One of the things is that the pathological person or perpetrator wants power and control over their partner. That is their main mission. While they are so much, whatever they call in love with this person. Right. But it has to have two conditions for it to be a trauma bond. There has to be a power balance. One person holds the power and they exploit the power. Right. They can have it because they have.

[Guest]

More resources, financial power. It could be anything. Do you think that these personalities know what they are doing or they just themselves?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

I think it's both. They are just themselves. They have personality disorder, so they think this is just who I am, but they totally know what they're doing because they will harm, lie, exploit, and betray anyone and everyone to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status. Right. And the second piece of the trauma bond is the intermittent reinforcement, where 70% of the time they're cruel, they're controlling, they're betraying, they're abusive. But that 30%, they're kind, generous and helpful and almost.

[Guest]

And almost like overly kind, overly, overly complimentary. Like, you got all the presents and all the trips and all the shit. Right? Right. Comfort and made you feel loved and made you feel like it's not that bad. Okay. He doesn't talk to me for two weeks, but I can stick it out.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Right? Right. Because I would get into a fight and then there would be a horse in my driveway. Right. As an apology. So there were these very. So what happens is the extremity of these two behaviors that they exhibit toward us is actually what creates the bonds. Because the research shows animal trainers who use intermittent reinforcement. The animals bond to them 230% more than just straight kindness.

[Guest]

Wow. Are these personalities born or are they made?

[Erica]

I was going to ask, is this learned or is this learned?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

It's learned. It's usually learned behavior. Or they up too entitled or they're overly abused.

[Erica]

Even though we think that narcissists have these big egos, they're actually the most insecure.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yeah.

[Erica]

Is that accurate?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yeah, that can be accurate. And you know, I use the term pathological lover because I think they're much more than a Narcissist. They usually have some psychopathy, right? That's why sometimes they're criminals. They have sadism, and then they have Machiavellianism, which means they're highly strategic and manipulative. As Erica. You know, I'm not telling you. You don't know. I'm just maybe giving you names for.

[Guest]

It, you know, just confirming everything that I've experienced.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

I know, unfortunately, that you live through.

[Guest]

Yeah, it's okay. I mean, you know, it's also interesting to speak to someone who's also basically been through the same thing. And it's nice that it really says a lot to your character that you took this experience and really, you know, went to school and are helping other women. But it's. It's hard when you're living with someone like this because they're not all bad, but they're great. And it's. They're sort of mercurial in the way that they are. And they. And I'm sure your ex husband, too, was very bright, and that's very bright. And that's how they pulled this off. Because if you're a ding dong, you cannot manipulate all of these systems and all of these people to your advantage.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

That's right. That's right. And you know, they're. You know, they're true con artists, right, because they wear the mask, and I call the two masks Romeo and dirty John or Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. But they can wear that mask and have this amazing public image and trick everybody, but then behind the scenes, you know, be very manipulative and cruel to us, which can make it even more confusing because now we're, like, gaslighting ourselves. Like, it's not that bad.

[Guest]

That's what I just said. It's not that bad. I can stick it out. It's really okay. What's wrong with me? I should be grateful. This is better than it could. You know, it could always be worse. I think that we, as women, or especially women, are a lot more susceptible to this entire thing. And I don't know about your ex husband, Jordan, but Tom had some of the best social skills I've ever seen in my entire life. Yeah, most of the time.

[Erica]

There's always an extreme talent involved with this. Correct, Correct.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Correct. You know, my ex is a grandiose narcissist, right? He is the best seller in the world. I mean, who does what he did and write a book and then get the best people in the world to make the movie?

[Guest]

Now he's a motivational speaker.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Motivational speaker. So. Yeah. And that's why I wrote my book, because I really wanted to take the stigma away from the victim. Because we're constantly asking like, didn't she know? Why did she stay? Instead of asking, no, why does he do that?

[Erica]

I also want to know like what it is because, you know, I have a history in my life of meeting people and thinking that, I don't know, maybe it's that I'm not enough and that I can make them better and that, that I'm going to create this new life and then that gives me this hole that I'm feeling in my heart or whatever it may be.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yes, yes.

[Erica]

What is it that creates us to do that?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Do we all have deficits and do we all have some form of developmental trauma and do we all have things that we need to fix about ourselves? Of course. But that's different than pathology.

[Guest]

Pathology for anybody that's listening that may. May not know. Could you explain pathology?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yeah. Is someone who's mentally unwell because they will use, harm and exploit anybody and everybody. You know, we. I went into my relationship with the intention to love and connect. Doesn't mean I didn't have imperfections, but it's the motivation behind the behavior I didn't go in to use. Exploit betraying control.

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[Guest]

I'm going to ask you a question, and this is just. I. I'm asking from a personal point. So. Okay, looking back.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yes.

[Guest]

Were you ever confused at who or what you were looking at or what you were experiencing? Even post, even looking back now? Like, was I really. Did I miss something? Did I experience that? Why? What is not. Click. What was true? Really? Like, what was true about my life?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yes. That is very common. And there it's a symptom that's only for. From a trauma bond, usually like cognitive dissonance, it's called, which is the mental confusion that you feel because you're constantly battling. Is he good? Is he bad? Am I crazy? Is he crazy? Is the relationship good? Is the relationship bad? And so you have three different layers of cognitive dissonance about you, him and the relationship that keep you totally confused during. And it's 100% symptom after a trauma bond.

[Guest]

PTSD.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yes, it's a part. Yeah. So you have cognitive dissonance, loss of self, and complex post traumatic stress disorder afterwards.

[Guest]

Yes.

[Erica]

And do you find that it makes people like. I feel like in general, ever since I've been a child, I've had a very hard time being present in conversation. Like, if I'm with my kids, that's one thing, but kind of any other situation, it's like, my guard is always like, I'm here.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Always you, like, you're always being like, being feeling hyper vigilant and.

[Erica]

Yes. And so is that a sign of that? And then like, I guess that's one question. And then the next question is like, as we're all moving into new chapters of our life, like, what is the difference? There's trauma bonded. And then a word that we hear a lot in 2024, 2025 is love bombing. I don't fully. Yeah. What. What exactly is that?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

So love bombing is a manipulation tactic. Right. So it's for somebody to buy you flowers and take you to a nice dinner. But love bombing is intense and it's like constant admiration and adoration and constant texting and where are you? And we're soul mates after two weeks. Right. And I have a saying, if it feels too good to be true, it probably. Yeah, Yeah.

[Guest]

I think that, you know, it's interesting. I remember when, like, Tom and I were married, he'd call me 40 times a day.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

There you go.

[Guest]

And when you try, for me, right.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

In it's not normal. It's not healthy.

[Guest]

No. But in the. When I tell people this, they're like, that's impossible. I was like, no, that was how I lived. You know, I lived like that for over 20 years, where I could get the most charming, most loving human being. And then there would be this slight, you know, flick of the eye and it'd be completely different. Or, I mean, or to watch him twist in front of someone else. Like, I've seen so many things, but then. And I don't know how you felt, but I saw him do really generous things for people.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And I'm thinking, okay, let's talk about my gambellianism or my, you know. Yeah, yeah, that's right. What, you know, what is true? What was true? What was this person's true true personality? Was any of it real? Why was I susceptible to that? Why did I buy into all of that and why did I defend that? And it's very difficult place to be as a. You know, and when you've never dealt with a personality like this, it almost seems impossible.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yeah. And here's the thing, right? Is that if you are a trusting person, we just assume everybody's like us. We can't even imagine that somebody like this exists till we experience it. And again, it's those extreme kind, generous mixed with the extreme crazy, controlling, brutal behaviors that cause cognitive dissonance. And. And it keeps you trapped. It's the glue. Cognitive dissonance is the glue. And when you see them. Nice. You get hopeful. Wait, though, that is really who they are. And then that's the hook.

[Guest]

It almost even becomes more sweet when you see them. Like, it becomes sweeter and they're nicer and they're far more loving and generous. And it's. The unpredictable element of these personalities is really what drives or at least drove me to be like, what the am I dealing with?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Right? Because it's not a cycle. Because if it was cycle, we could predict it. You never know when the behavior's coming. So that.

[Erica]

Can a narcissist actually love you?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Well, you know, narcissism runs on a spectrum, right. So I think there are some people that have severe rigid personality disorders, and they're not going to change and they're not capable of love the way you and I think about it, because they can't have empathy, they can't have compassion. And love has two qualities. Quality of connection and giving someone the space to be who they are. A lot of times they can't do that. So often they're not capable of loving us the way we need to be loved.

[Guest]

I think that they have their own version of love. Like, I think that they feel to a point, but ultimately they're going to put themselves or their business or their personal Persona, their public Persona first, Right?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

And yeah, and we're not objects, right? Like, we're really more like objects to them. And again, they will use, harm, exploit and betray us to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure and status. And I just don't think that's love.

[Erica]

Is there a checklist or something equivalent to, like, signs for somebody to look out for?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yes, yes. In my book, I have a pathological lover checklist and I have it on my website. And here we go. If you meet a guy and they're like, my ex is crazy. Probably a reason why, probably made her crazy. Right away, you start to catch them in lies, right? Starts to be a little disrespectful, belittling you, blames you for everything. Words not matching action lacks or more skills of compassion. Right? So I have sexual promiscuity, extreme substance abuse. Right? So they all don't have every single thing. But on my pathological lover checklist, I forgot how many items there are. If they score over certain amounts, run my cow. Don't wait, because the longer you stay, the more you invest into the relationship. Then you're like, oh, God, I gotta stay. I invested.

[Guest]

I want to ask you. We're talking mostly about men, but this is also true in women.

[Erica]

Yeah, 100%.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yes.

[Guest]

So men or, you know, anyone that.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

You know, any, any sexual orientation, like any, you know, any configuration of a relationship, it can happen between boss and employee. It can happen between friends. It, you know, it can happen in different types of relationships, especially where there's a hierarchical difference. Right?

[Guest]

Yeah. Power imbalance, whether it be financial or, you know, professional, that's usually the opportunity for these personalities to come in and get you. I mean, not get you, but.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you become. You become prey for them. And, and a lot of times they gain power like my ex did because he was so threatening and dominating and intimidating. I feared him. So did I. Oh, I had severe fear. Yeah.

[Guest]

And when I tell people that, they just kind of look at me like he was an older man and I.

[Erica]

Was like, yeah, so, yeah, there's so even. So I have a question. Do you think that somebody that is potentially raised by a narcissist is more prone to then want to be married to one?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

You can be more prone because you had you Know a lacking father that wasn't there, or you grew up with some developmental trauma. But in my book, and this is what the research shows, there's a great book called Women who Love Psychopaths where I got a lot of my research from, and I know it's a great title. And what the research showed is that women that score very high in certain personality traits, and again, anybody could take it on my website, such as agreeableness or conscientiousness, meaning they're loyal and tolerant and pro social or very determined and disciplined. They are actually perfect prey for these men. And I score very high in both because those qualities that are good. But woman comes to me and she's like, I'm organized and I'm loving. I'm not going to say, oh, we're going to therapize that out of you. They get weaponized by this personality, they take advantage of it. So it's not just that dysfunctional women, you know, of course, yes. Is there a reenactment of relational trauma? Yes. But anyone and everyone can fall prey to these people.

[Guest]

How long did it take you to recover?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Oh, how about this?

[Guest]

Or have you.

[Erica]

And did you find another person like him right after?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

That's what I, I dated a lot, I had a lot of fun. And then I'm married for 23 years with my husband, 25 years. It took me, I would say, a few years. And I've been in a lot of therapy.

[Erica]

What was the final straw?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Oh, for me, well, he kicked me down the stairs when I told him I wanted him to get sober. And so that was beyond scary. And the second straw was when I told him how, when he did get sober, how hard it all was. He was like, it wasn't that bad. And that lack of remorse put me over the edge. And then once he got arrested and got an ankle bracelet, I knew I was safe because he had lost all his power. The power imbalance shifted.

[Erica]

Yeah.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Like, bye. Bye. So I had three last straws.

[Erica]

Yeah. And you guys co parent, right? You have kids?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yes, we do. We do. We do.

[Erica]

And how does that work?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

It works great because the power imbalance shifted, so I kind of got lucky. I always say that he got arrested in a strange way, but my, my kids are great. My daughter's a therapist, my son's a businessman. Like, they're doing great.

[Guest]

I'm happy to hear that. I'm happy to hear that you, you know, are safe and happy. Children are wonderful.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

We, we came out the other side, but, you know, we Did a lot of work. We processed it. We didn't pretend, you know, having to.

[Guest]

Go through something like this, which is super public, and having people weigh in, not really understanding, you know, where I was coming from or what I was experiencing, and everyone sort of filling in the blanks. It's very difficult because it oftentimes takes a toll on what am I really going through, what am I seeing? Like, how. How do I sift through this. This entire blur of a life and really get down to how do I heal and how do I pull myself together? Because that is the ultimate goal. Like, I can control him.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Okay, no, you could have never controlled Tom. Oh, my God. The judge is going to control.

[Guest]

I mean, please, I was as good as Jordan.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Okay, right. Like, you weren't controlling Tom and you were not responsible for his behavior.

[Guest]

No, and I. And I. And it. I know that. But knowing that and feeling that are two completely different things.

[Erica]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Like feeling that from the inside out and saying, you know what, Erica? These things happened to you. There were some beautiful experiences, There were some bad experiences, but ultimately that's over and he's gone and, you know, whatever. But now I have to pull myself together and move forward. And that, I think, is, like, it's the sweetest thing, but it's also the hardest thing because you're totally. It's almost like a. You have to look back and say, what was true about that life and who am I? And what is this? It can be very heavy.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Well, it is very heavy. It is very heavy. I mean, that's. The whole last section of my book is all about healing. Because the research shows, though victims of this sort of abuse, 75% of them go on to experience post traumatic growth if they do the work. So you're going to be in that group. You're going to experience post traumatic growth because you're putting in the work. And it is possible, but, yeah, it takes a lot of work.

[Erica]

But I have a. I also have another question. Like, there's like, we went to, like, you know, this whole couples therapy thing, and it announced me as an introvert. And, like, it was shocking information for everybody. Even though I've been saying this my entire life, I'm like, no. Like, if I'm being paid to show up and do it, I can do it. But, like, I'm naturally an introvert, so I enjoy my alone time. I need to, like, recharge all of these things. But there's moments that I'm feeling now where I feel really lonely and I don't know if those loneliness feelings mean that I've made a mistake or, like, this is just something I have to get used to, and this is, like, the new change in my life. And I. Oh, my God, I'm so embarrassed. I'm getting emotional. But, like, that is such a confusing part of all of this. Like, are you supposed to power through or, like, are you supposed to give it, like, I don't know.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Oh, no, no. I think loneliness is. I was very, very lonely, painfully lonely. And I had my kids, you know, and I was like, why am I so lonely? Same exact way you're feeling.

[Erica]

Yeah.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

And I found that. I think that's a very normal process of it. I think that we are built for connection. We're social beings. And I. What really, really helped me was journaling. That's what helped me deal with that loneliness. And I think it's a very normal process of it. And I don't. I don't know your situation well enough, but I don't think it means that you need to go back. I think it's something that you're going to learn to develop a deeper relationship with yourself.

[Erica]

Yeah.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

And you will. But very common. And I'm sorry you're going for that. I have a lot of empathy for you.

[Erica]

Oh, thank you.

[Guest]

Teddy's in the thick of it right now, you know, and it's very fresh and very hard, and I. I feel for her because, you know, none of this is easy and to pick yourself up and, like, even be on a podcast today and to talk about it, you know. Teddy, you need to cut yourself a break. If you didn't say you felt lonely, I would be worried that you were, like, not. Not in touch.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yeah. And, Teddy, I remember the loneliness being, like, painful. I remember, like, an ache, and I.

[Erica]

Like, it's a constant ache that I'm trying to, like, fake my way through.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yeah.

[Erica]

But then it's like. And I have talked about this in therapy, then it's almost like I'm attracted to, like, another chaotic situation. You know, I don't want to give too much away about my parents or anything like that, but, like, clearly, my dad was a rock star. He met some girl he met at the Rainbow Room, and it was my mom, and they had babies, and he was married already. Like, everything was a shit show. So, like, clearly there's been a lot of ups and downs in my life, and I. My only goal has ever been, like, I just want to give, like, my kids stability.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yeah.

[Erica]

And I don't know. I guess I Just. I don't know if it's loneliness or I feel scared. I also don't feel like maybe I'm enough, you know, like all those things.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yeah. And I mean, what's your. Listen, let's think about it. So there's loneliness, which is really fear and insecurity, right? But then there is, you know, like, reflection, like trying to figure it all out. And then there's a deep grief, right, for the life that you're not going to have anymore. And they're all normal feelings, you know? And that's why sometimes when you leave this very chaotic experience, it's good just to hunker down, be with you and your kids, you know, do what you're doing. But I implore you not to judge your feelings. They're all okay. It's like we get so hard on ourselves. And there's shame, too. Right, you mentioned. Yeah.

[Erica]

So much shame.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

So there's so much shame. And. And shame is the worst to deal with because it means, like, I'm broken. I don't matter. I can't be fixed. But that's not true. You've just gone through a relational trauma. I implore you, don't judge yourself.

[Guest]

Betty's always been hard on herself.

[Erica]

Well, the world has always been hard on me.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

We gotta fire your inner critic. Don't internal, you know, it's so hard. You guys are in the spotlight. I don't even know how you do it, honestly. But I don't internalize everybody else. Projects all over you guys. That's all it is, is projection.

[Erica]

If you're in ovarian retirement and, like, you're looking to, like, expand your life in a relationship, like, how do you find yourself in a place where you don't put yourself exactly where you were before, Right?

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

So that's why I say go to therapy. Take your personality trait test. You have to know your attachment pattern. You have to know your personality traits. You have to understand your developmental trauma. You have to understand yourself before you can really choose effectively. And there I have two sayings about that. If somebody can hear you, they can love you. And my husband, my current husband, I'll never forget the first time we had an argument. And I was. And he goes, yeah, I, I, I can see that. I was like, what? You can see that you can hear me. And it's also when you do enough work on yourself and the work is never ending. I'm 57, and I still work on myself. You learn to trust yourself, and you will.

[Guest]

I believe that. I believe that. Trusting yourself is the true is the true win in all of this is like being able to say, you know what Erica, no, that is not right. And being sure, like just knowing it from your gut like this is not right, that is not okay or this is right, you know this feels good.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

That's right. And trust the body. Don't trust the mind because that's where the ego and all the distortions but the body doesn't lie. Like you say, when that gut goes this is right, then you go, don't ignore the oh. Like I did when my ex asked me to get engaged and I said yes. I grabbed the five carat diamond but my gut said oh. So don't ignore the gut.

[Guest]

It's easy to be distracted by sparkly things.

[Teddy]

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[Erica]

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[Erica]

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[Teddy]

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[Teddy]

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[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondence and contributors, and with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else ready to laugh and stay informed. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Host]

The forces shaping markets and the economy are often hiding behind a blur of numbers.

[Co-Host]

So that's why we created the Big Take from Bloomberg Podcasts to give you the context you need to make sense of it all.

[Host]

Every day in just 15 minutes, we dive into one global business story that matters.

[Co-Host]

You'll hear from Bloomberg journalists like Matt Levine.

[Jon Stewart]

A lot of this meme stock stuff.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Is, I think, embarrassing to the sec.

[Co-Host]

Amanda Mull, who writes our Business Week Buying Power column.

[AJ Stephens]

Very few companies who go viral are.

[Erica]

Like, totally prepared for what that means.

[Co-Host]

And Zoe Tillman, senior legal reporter Courts are not supposed to decide elections. Courts are not really supposed to play a big role in choosing our elected leaders. That's for the the voters to decide.

[Host]

Follow the Big Take podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.

[AJ Stephens]

Ever wonder what it's like to be on the phone with an NFL general manager as you finalize the biggest contract in NFL history? I'm A.J. stephens, Vice President of client strategy at Athletes first, where we've negotiated $1.4 billion in current NFL quarterback contracts. Introducing the Athletes First Family podcast, the Quarterback Series, along with my co host Brian Murphy, athlete's first CEO, we're pulling back the curtain on how these historic deals come together. You'll hear directly from the agents who shaped the NFL's financial landscape, the ones who negotiated Justin Herbert's extension into Sean Watson's fully guaranteed contract that sent shockwaves through the league. This isn't just about the numbers, though. It's about the untold stories behind these massive negotiations and the relationships the NFL superstars like Dak Prescott, Tua Tungavaloa and Jordan Love have with their agents at Athletes First. For the first time ever, the agents who orchestrate these deals are sharing the details of the negotiations and everything that led up to their clients signing on the dotted line. Listen to the Athletes First Family podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Erica]

So while we're on the topic of some of these relationships, let's talk about some of the high profile relationships that have kind of come to an end. This year. We've got Jessica Alba and Cash Warren. They're divorcing after 16 years of marriage. She said they didn't always treat each other the best before they split and they had become roommates. Do you think that's Common. Especially after having kids or.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Oh, yeah, that can happen for sure.

[Guest]

Right.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

That, you know, to keep your sex life alive, it takes intention. And if you don't feel emotionally connected, especially women, they're not turned on. Right. So I know what exactly was happening with their relationship, but I think that that's. Can. Can happen very readily. Very.

[Erica]

So if you're not actively working on pursuing the intimacy of your relationship, even if somebody's not a narcissist, even if there's not these issues, like, you're gonna have distance.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

You're gonna have distance. And also the emotional intimacy. You know what's sexy is constantly revealing yourself and getting vulnerable. Your partner and letting them know you.

[Erica]

Yeah. Then we've got Sophie Turner and Joe Jonas have been an extremely public custody battle. People believe Joe was weaponizing the press against his ex wife. We know now publicly that Joe Jonas, Brad Pitt and some others, they've all used the same PR company, which is, I think, quite common in Los Angeles.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yeah. Not surprised.

[Erica]

Essentially the question is when you see an ex start weaponizing their partner as a bad parent or this or that, their campaign.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Erica]

So what's like the appropriate response when that happens?

[Guest]

From silence or.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

I would say silence. Yeah. I would. I would not give it air time because you know your truth, you know the type of person you are, and it'll die down. There'll be a new heads line, as we know tomorrow, and I would not waste my breath on that. Like when the movie came out.

[Guest]

Oh, my God. That's right.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

That's right. I said nothing. You know why? Because I had nothing to say. Now I use the movie and I exploit it to help women everywhere.

[Erica]

Was it she a sword? Exploit. But I'm.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

But I wasn't going to defend myself because I know who I am.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah, I tried that. It didn't work out.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Well, Erica, yours was so different, you know? Right. You tried to. Exactly. There's our point. There's our point.

[Guest]

Didn't work out.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Right. Like, they'll pick some. They'll find somebody else to pick on. Go ahead.

[Erica]

Our last celebrity couple we need to discuss are. And I don't even know if you know who they are, but it's Jax Taylor and Brittany Cartwright. Which is the question that so many of our listeners have is if you are once a cheater, are you always a cheater?

[Guest]

Yes.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yes. Sorry. Sorry, Dr. No, I love that you answered yes. And I. I do know them a little bit because I watch all the crazy people on YouTube that talk about all the reality shows because I'm a reality junkie, so this is so much fun for me. It's my guilty pleasure. So, yes, I have heard about them and I do think. Unless you like, listen, here's the thing. Unless someone makes an intentional decision to change their patterns of behavior, they're not going to change.

[Erica]

Right.

[Guest]

And you cannot control them.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

No. Not even for a second.

[Guest]

And not. And there's no point in even trying because that is the. That is the one thing I wish women understood is that. And I mean, and when you look at other women going through things, it's like you cannot control your partner.

[Erica]

No. And. And something that he said, like, I knew before we got married. And then blah, blah, blah. I'm like, well, but then you married her and then you had kids with her. Like you made this decision repeatedly.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of children running around in adult bodies.

[Guest]

This is true.

[Erica]

Yeah.

[Guest]

I'm one of them.

[Erica]

Yeah, same.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

I think I just stopped being one of 57. So. I get it. I get it. Yes.

[Guest]

I'll tell you what. And entering the dating pool or being single.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Right.

[Guest]

So after I've been married all of my adult life, my first husband and now, you know, my second husband, and just getting to a place where I feel like I can start to go out or, or be social or maybe even date someone, which I don't even know how to do, which is fine. But it's interesting because I feel like such a toddler. Like I. I am a child running around in a body. This looks like a teenage dream, meaning it is exploded with clothes. Like, this looks like a. A little girl's house over here. But that's really where I'm at. Like I'm just trying to put it together.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

And that's okay because you know what the best part is? To know where you are and know thyself. And that's okay. And by the way, we're all. We're never better or worse. We're all just suffering human beings. And that's okay. Like, all the same, I think once we all real. Once people realize that, it makes life a lot easier.

[Guest]

I have so enjoyed this conversation.

[Co-Host]

Me too.

[Erica]

I'm like. And anyways, when you become my full time therapist now that you've been on the pod.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Listen, guys, back on I love Housewives. So I'm so happy to be here and happy to support and just have me back whenever you want.

[Erica]

All right.

[Guest]

We'd love to have you back because I know so many people would benefit from your expertise. Thank you so much for your time.

[Erica]

Thank you. Please stay safe.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Okay? Sending so much love to la.

[Erica]

Thank you.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

All right, bye. Bye, bye.

[Jon Stewart]

Catch Jon Stewart back in action on the Daily show and in your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. From his hilarious satirical takes on today's politics and entertainment to the unique voices of correspondents and contributors, it's your perfect companion to stay on top of what's happening now. Plus, you'll get special content just for podcast listeners, like in depth interviews and a roundup of the week's top headlines. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Host]

The forces shaping markets and the economy are often hiding behind a blur of numbers.

[Co-Host]

So that's why we created the Big Take from Bloomberg Podcasts to give you the context you need to make sense of it all.

[Host]

Every day in just 15 minutes, we dive into one global business story that matters.

[Erica]

Matters.

[Co-Host]

You'll hear from Bloomberg journalists like Matt Levine.

[Jon Stewart]

A lot of this Meme stock stuff.

[Dr. Nadine Macuso]

Is, I think, embarrassing to the SEC.

[Host]

Follow the Big Take podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.

[Questlove]

People, my people, what's up? This is Questlove Man. I cannot believe we're already wrapping up another season of Questlove Supreme. Man, we've got some amazing guests lined up to close out the season. But, you know, I don't want any of you guys to miss all the incredible conversations we've had so far. I mean, we talked to Amerie, Johnny Marr, Eve, Jonathan Schechter, Billy Porter, and so many more. Look, if you haven't heard these episodes yet, hey, now's your chance. You gotta check them out. Listen to Questlove supreme on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

[AJ Stephens]

$1.4 billion in NFL quarterback contracts. The untold stories behind the biggest deals in football history. I'm AJ Stephens, Vice president of Client Strategy at Athletes first, introducing the Athletes First Family podcast, the Quarterback series. My co host, Brian Murphy, Athletes first CEO, and I are sitting down with the agents who have negotiated contracts for Justin Herbert, DeShawn Watson, Dak Prescott, Tua Tugovailoa and Jordan Love. Listen to Athletes First Family Podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.