Dirty Rush: She said She said

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Dirty Rush: She Said She Said"

Podcast: Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge
Host (for this episode): Jennifer Kessler
Guests: Kate, Sabine, Grace, Molly
Original Air Date: January 17, 2026

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Main Theme / Purpose

This episode of "Dirty Rush" dives into the highs and lows of sorority recruitment—commonly called Rush. The hosts gather candid stories from women with a variety of Rush experiences: some loved it, some hated it, and others fell in between. The conversation explores how expectations, timing, personal fit, and campus culture shape Rush, aiming to give advice and reassurance to current or future rushees.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Range of Rush Experiences

Segment: 02:54–08:46 (Kate), 14:02–31:55 (Sabine), 36:15–47:50 (Grace), 49:07–57:45 (Molly)

• Pressure & Preconceptions: Guests acknowledge that coming from a family of sorority women or knowing people in houses can both ease nerves and increase pressure.

  • “I think I was more excited than nervous because I knew that I…had so many resources.” —Kate (05:02)
  • “I don't think that if I had older sisters, I would have been the type of person to rush.” —Kate (08:38)

• Rush as Both Exhilarating and Stressful: The process is described as repetitive, nerve-wracking, and at times fun, with rules about "off-limits" conversations (boys, booze, Bible).

  • “It's just girls having conversations. But yeah, it was all like very similar conversations every time I'd go into like a different house.” —Kate (06:45)

• Campus Culture Matters: Southern schools like TCU have particularly intense Rush experiences, whereas other campuses may differ in selectivity, process, or culture.

  • “Doing it at a Southern school is obviously like very different than other things. But yeah, I think it worked out well.” —Kate (09:38)

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2. Rushing at Different Stages: Freshman vs. Transfer or Junior

Segment: 14:02–31:55 (Sabine), 36:15–47:50 (Grace)

• Non-Traditional Entrants: Sabine, who rushed as a junior after studying abroad, intentionally avoided joining friends' houses to carve out a unique experience.

  • “I wanted it to be like, my own unique experience.” —Sabine (14:53)
  • “Going into recruitment and joining a sorority could only be net positive…if I'm going to join a sorority, it's only going to be awesome.” —Sabine (16:03)

• Timing and Maturity: Older students tend to have more confidence, less anxiety, and a broader perspective.

  • “I think freshman year is the time that I grew the most...If you don't feel like yourself when you get to school, it seriously doesn't do any harm to join as a sophomore or to try it later.” —Sabine (20:50)

• Community Beyond Freshman Year: The idea that you make “forever friends” only as a freshman is debunked; shifting life circumstances can open opportunities for meaningful bonds later in college.

  • “Being in a sorority, to me, is the gift that keeps on giving.” —Sabine (26:20)

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3. The Judgment & Selection Aspect

Segment: 36:15–47:50 (Grace), 49:07–57:45 (Molly)

• Impersonal Processes (Virtual Rush): The pandemic forced some schools to do Rush via slides, videos, or Zoom—leading to an experience Grace describes as alienating and shallow.

  • “At the school that I was at, the first round of recruitment, you actually don't talk to the girls at all. You submit a slide…then the first round of Recruitment is them going through the slides and picking girls that they want back based on those.” —Grace (38:47)
  • “It feels very impersonal and like they’re just looking at a picture of you and ruling you out.” —Grace (39:44)

• Surface-Level Judgment: Many felt that Rush focuses too much on appearances and superficial qualities, regardless of candidates’ real personalities.

  • “It just felt very judgmental, and you kind of feel like the spotlight is put on you.” —Grace (38:38)

• Invasive Questions & Mixed Messages: Some rules discouraged discussing certain “off-limits” topics, yet these same topics would still be brought up—making interactions confusing.

  • “We weren’t allowed to talk about boys, booze, and… Bible, maybe…but then you would have these girls bringing up boys…” —Molly (49:07, 50:45)

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4. The Emotional Impact & Aftermath

Segment: 43:11–47:50 (Grace), 49:07–57:45 (Molly)

• Dealing with Rejection: Personal stakes and rejections can deeply affect mood, self-esteem, and perception of the process.

  • “Already my expectations have not been met…I'm taking it personal, and I feel like that kind of snowballed into maybe my attitude throughout the rest of Rush…” —Grace (43:11)
  • “It's so much pressure. Pressure to try to impress everyone.” —Jennifer (55:41)

• Advice for Future Rushees:

  • “Give yourself credit for what you've already been through…if it goes well, awesome. But if it doesn't, I know that I'm going to be able to recover.” —Grace (44:29)
  • “Do not take it personal whatsoever, because it's literally the weirdest system ever.” —Molly (54:22)
  • “Be yourself...I feel like the way to be authentic is just to kind of be vulnerable and like, say...what I'm feeling in my experience.” —Molly (55:49)
  • “It will always work itself out…you might not end up in the house you thought…but you will find your people regardless.” —Sabine (30:37)

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5. Suggestions for Improving Rush

Segment: 46:51–47:50 (Grace), 49:07–57:45 (Molly)

• Make It More Personal & Less Comparison-Based:

  • “Just being mindful of canceling out some of that noise and maybe not asking all the questions to other people or not giving away too much information to other people and just keeping it more of a personal experience.” —Grace (47:04)
  • “You never know…what the qualifications are that they need…so I would definitely say do not take it personal…” —Molly (54:22)

• Being Vulnerable and Honest:

  • “Be comfortable being vulnerable…not just during rush…but to be open because people will almost always…be vulnerable with you, and it's a really…great way to connect.” —Jennifer (56:25)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On setting expectations:
  • “You meet your forever friends when you're a freshman…But then I show up at Cal as a junior, and if you had told me three years ago that I'd still be making best friends…that I wouldn’t have believed you.” —Sabine (25:29)
• On the negative side of rush:
  • "I actually really didn't like it because I felt like they were trying to have me be a certain way, talk a certain way. It felt degrading..." —Molly (49:07)
• On rejection and advice:
  • “It's hard not to take [rejection] personal, especially at such a pivotal time in your life.” —Grace (40:50)
• On authenticity:
  • “The way to be authentic is just to kind of be vulnerable and like, say…Because I feel like each week, I agree, I'm in a different place each week, literally.” —Molly (55:49)
• On personal growth and perspective:
  • “If you think you like the idea of being in a sorority…but you don't feel like when you get to school, you're yourself…it seriously doesn't do any harm to join as a sophomore or…later.” —Sabine (20:50)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:54 – Show's first real content segment, introducing the topic & Kate’s story.
• 03:23–09:38 – Kate discusses her TCU Rush experience, pressure, and outcomes.
• 14:02–31:55 – Sabine shares her journey as a transfer/junior, with insights on timing, confidence, and leadership.
• 36:15–47:50 – Grace recounts the difficulties of virtual Rush, feelings of judgment, and her eventual positive takeaways.
• 49:07–57:45 – Molly outlines her negative experience, group pressures, and advice about authenticity and resilience.

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Conclusion & Key Takeaways

• Rush is highly individual: some thrive, others struggle, many land somewhere in between.
• Timing, self-confidence, and expectations matter deeply—joining later can benefit personal growth.
• The process is often judgmental and at times superficial, but taking things less personally and focusing on authentic connection pays off.
• Vulnerability, positivity, and perspective are essential tools for navigating Rush and college social life in general.
• Rejection, while painful, is not personal—if it's not a fit, something better may be ahead.

This episode presents a balanced, honest look at sorority recruitment, giving listeners both empathy and practical advice, whether they are anxiously awaiting Rush, debriefing from their own experience, or just curious about what really happens behind the scenes.

Transcript

[Jennifer Kessler]

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[Gia Giudice]

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[Jill Winterstein]

it's Jill Interestein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast where we talk about astrology, natal charts and how to step into your most vibrant life. And today I'm talking with my dear friend Krista Williams.

[Jennifer Kessler]

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[Jill Winterstein]

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[Grace]

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[Jill Winterstein]

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[Sabine]

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[Jennifer Kessler]

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[Gia Giudice]

Welcome to Dirty Rush, the truth about sorority life with your hosts, me, Gia

[Jennifer Kessler]

Giudice, Daisy Kent, and Jennifer Kessler. Hi, you guys. Welcome back to another episode of Dirty Rush. Rush week. Best week of your life or absolute nightmare? Today on Dirty Rush, we're talking Rush, love it or hate it, and hearing directly from people who lived it and survived it. So first we are bringing in Kate. Hi, Kate.

[Sabine]

Hi.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Hi. Where'd you go to school?

[Kate]

I went to school at tcu.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Ah, Texas girl.

[Kate]

Yes.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Yeah, I went to ut, so. And tcu. From. From what I hear, TCU has an intense rush.

[Kate]

It is pretty intense, yeah. We have 13 houses and there's so many girls, so it's really interesting.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Wow. Well, listen, today I want to hear from you if you loved it or you hated it. We're talking about the whole process of it, and obviously it could be nerve wracking, thrilling, scary. So we're just trying to, you know, talk to some of you guys and see differing opinions. How was it for you? How was Rush?

[Kate]

Personally, I, like, following my sisters to my school was really interesting because one of my sisters has graduated and one is currently an active member and she's a senior.

[Jennifer Kessler]

And.

[Kate]

And so I went in with a lot of preconceived notions about, like, sororities and, like, I knew their friends that were in their sororities or in different ones. And then my sister, who's currently a senior, she lives with all Kappas, but she's a Sigma Kappa. So, like, I knew her Kappa friends and I just, like, knew so many people going in. So it was nice to see, like, the type of girls that were in each. But I think that, like, I really didn't know until I went, like, what I would actually think about the sororities. But I think it was nice, like, being able to go in with, like, an idea of what I was setting myself up for and what kind of girls were like.

[Jennifer Kessler]

It was. It helped to sort of, like, it helped to sort of dissipate the nerves a little.

[Kate]

Yeah, totally.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Yeah. Although, I mean, you tell me, were you nervous?

[Kate]

I was nervous. I was, yeah. I was totally nervous. I mean, it's a lot to live up to, especially both of, like, my older sisters being in A sorority? Yeah, going through rush and it going pretty well for both of them. So that was interesting. Um, but I. I think I was more excited than nervous because I knew that I, like, felt confident and like, had so many resources and. Yeah, I was just more excited, I think.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Did you know? You kind of know. Did you kind of know what it was going to be like before? You know, I think some people go in blind, but it sounds like I know. Yeah, you probably knew the rundown, right?

[Kate]

Yeah, totally.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Do you have an easy time talking to people?

[Kate]

I do have a pretty easy time talking to people. I think that, like, knowing especially what question, like what type of questions they were going to ask and like, what we're going to be talking about and whatn to mention and things like that. I think that it was like, really easy and I'm a people person, so it was like, just exciting to like, have conversations with girls my age.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Yeah, of course. So you were kind of. You were prepared. Yeah. I think that probably does change things. You know, just kind of knowing how it's going to go, especially like what kind of questions you're going to get asked. What kind of questions did you get asked?

[Kate]

I mean, it's a lot of the same conversation over and over again, like going into the different houses and especially it depends on the round. But like, philanthropy was so baseline. Just like, where are you from? What do you like to do? What's your major? Like, what building do you live in? And like, how's moving and stuff like that. Because I did. It's fall semester rush and so it was all very general. And then like, as it went on, just like not mentioning, like, what do they say? Like the three Bs or whatever and stuff like that.

[Jennifer Kessler]

What are those?

[Kate]

It's booze, boys and Bible. And then other people say, like, Biden's like, not politics. Or there was another. I can't remember, but like, you just like shouldn't mention those things. But like. And probably half of the conversations I had, I mentioned them.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Really?

[Kate]

I won't say. I'll like advise that, but I think it's like, okay if you let it slip a few times because we're all like, human. It's just girls having conversations. But yeah, it was all like very similar conversations every time I'd go into like a different house. But it's just like fun talking to, like, girls my age about fun things.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Were there any. Were there any points of it? Even though you, you know, you did sort of know what you were getting into. Were there Any points where you were really nervous or, you know, stressed because you love the girls that you didn't expect to love? Or was there any of that? Or was it just. Did you sort of. Were you able to breeze through it?

[Kate]

I wouldn't say it was like, a total breeze through for me because obviously, like, I kind of. Well, my sister is, like a senior, so she's an active member and going in. I, like, thought of her sorority, obviously, as an option, but so I didn't really, like, know if that's what I, like, for sure wanted or not. But, like, going into the houses that I got back, I was most nervous about sk, which is Sigma Kappa, which my sister's in, because I, like, felt so under pressure because, like, if I didn't get. I didn't even know if I wanted it for sure. But, like, if I didn't get it or if it didn't go well, I just felt like, oh, like, that's weird. Like, I should, like, be good in it because, like, my sister's in it. So that was pressure and.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Right.

[Kate]

Some that I didn't know any about. It was really fun to go to those ones because, like, I didn't have any, like, expectations that I could just, like, really freely, like, say whatever. And, like, the girls were so nice, so that was fun. Like, there are some other ones that, like, some girls from my high school that are, like, older went to, so seeing them was pretty nerve wracking. But it was really fun to like, have familiar faces.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Do you feel like you rushed? Well, you went in, I guess, because you were definitely going to rush. There was no doubt about it. But did you ever feel like maybe I did it need to take this path or did you ever, you know, regret it or were you. Did it all just feel like this is what I was supposed to do?

[Kate]

I mean, yeah, there's like, a little bit of both. I don't think that if I had older sisters, I would have been the type of person to rush.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Really? Why not?

[Kate]

I don't know. I also, like, with going to tcu, I don't think I would have gone there if, like, a bunch of people from my high school.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Really?

[Kate]

Yeah, because we're from Nevada. It's, like, so random to go to Texas from Nevada.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Just, like, eventually, like, people started going a lot, and then both my sisters went, and then I visited so much that I ended up loving it. But I think that if I didn't go to tc, I would have gone to, like, Boulder or something more, like, outdoorsy. Or like something like that. But I mean, I'm so glad that like I have like been brought on this path and like followed my sisters because it's so much fun. And like, I think that now it's like totally where I was meant to be. But I don't know if I would have like sought it out myself. And then like in terms of rush, I think I maybe would have done it like no matter where I went. But like doing it at a Southern school is obviously like very different than other things. But yeah, I think it worked out well.

[Jennifer Kessler]

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[Gia Giudice]

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[Jennifer Kessler]

All right, guys, so now we are bringing in Sabine. Hi, Sabine.

[Sabine]

Hi. So happy to be here.

[Jennifer Kessler]

So happy to have you. Welcome. We're talking today about Rush. Loved it. Hated it. So I'm just gonna shoot some questions at you first. I think that you rushed as a junior. Is that right?

[Sabine]

Yeah, I rushed as a junior. Bit of an unconventional experience, but seriously like, only the highest compliments to the entire process. Like, I had the most amazing time

[Jennifer Kessler]

really going through recruitment. Yeah, Yeah. I rushed as a junior, too. And I remember feeling I had a. I mean, I enjoyed it. I went in there with sort of these, you know, I sort of knew where I wanted to be. I was a junior and I had friends in a certain sorority. But it was a little strange for me just with all the freshmen. I don't know, you felt like you didn't feel any of that.

[Sabine]

So my experience was a bit different because I'm in a dual degree program. So I spent my first two years studying abroad in France. And so when I got to Berkeley, I only knew, like, my high school best friends that had chosen to go to school in Berkeley. But. And I knew what sororities they were in. But I made the mental note before the process that I didn't want to join a house that my friends were in because I wanted it to be like, my own unique experience.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Love that.

[Sabine]

I went into it with, like, zero. I knew the houses they were in, and I knew kind of the vibes of the houses. But I went into it and I was like, I'm going to take this experience as my own. I'm going to meet the girls, I'm going to feel the energy of the house. I'm going to see how the process goes, and I'm going to go where my gut is. And it wasn't kind of the process. It wasn't the feeling of, like, I know which one I want to be in, and I'm going to do the whole recruitment process just for that house.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Right.

[Sabine]

Like, I was there to kind of. I've been thinking a lot about the process in general because I've seriously gained so much from it and being in, like, I'm in DG now, and it's been the most amazing. Like, it's been, like, the experience that changed my time at Berkeley.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Really. And is DG not the one that your friends from high school are in?

[Sabine]

No. So none of. I didn't know anyone going into it.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Okay.

[Sabine]

And I've been reflecting a lot about the process, and I think what changed it for me and what made it this, much like this, just so incredible was that for me, going into recruitment and joining a sorority could only be net positive. Like, I only was thinking about it in the sense that, like, I got to Berkeley with the most amazing best friends from France, and I felt such an amazing community already that I was like, if I'm going to join a Sorority, it's only going to be awesome. Like, I'm not going to do it if it's kind of like a in between experience.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Well, okay, so I just have to ask you because I think that is such a wonderful, positive, fabulous way, right, to enter into this crazy experience. Are you like that all over the place in real life?

[Sabine]

I. I really try to be.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sabine]

For context. So my sister was in a sorority. She went to Purdue University and she was in Phi Mu, and she also had that experience. So she went through recruitment during COVID So she did all of her recruitment on Zoom. She ended up in a house that fit her like a glove, met the most amazing people. And like, I always saw. I saw her experience in her four years in college, and I was like, I want that. But then I went to France, which had nothing close to a sorority, of course, had a bunch of international students who knew nothing about sorority life. And I've always had this feeling in me, like I was class president in high school. I've always had this sense of, like, I know that if I went to a traditional US University for four years, I probably would have done the full exec sorority experience and have been really involved, just because that's. That's a space where I feel the most myself. Kind of like a leadership position with a bunch of, like, really positive girls who are happy to be there and want to be a part of this experience and, like, love just like, because you. You're not in a sorority if you don't want to be in it. You know what I mean? It's like, you're paying the dues and you're showing up to the house and you're going to chapter, and if you don't want to be in it, then that really shows. And so I was like, I think I could so see myself in a space in which I'm surrounded by people who all want to be there and all want to be a part of it. And so I think I definitely try and carry that through other parts of my life and do things that feel like they just click for me. And so I went into the experience being like, I, if this doesn't work on day one, I'll just drop. And then day one, I was like, this is awesome. Like, this is so fun. Like, I'm just chatting with people. Like, everyone's happy to be here. Like, it was. It was seriously a week. That was just fun. Like, it was just super fun.

[Jennifer Kessler]

I mean, listen, because we're bringing in girls that did not love the process as well. So we're talking to a mix. But I think what is, what is resonating with me is what you said about you knew going in that it was going to be good, right. Like you have. And I'm sure, you know, that kind of power, positive thinking carries over in all different aspects of your life. But, you know, for our listeners, I don't know, I mean, I, I think that that probably made a huge difference. I don't know how to tell people to get in that mindset. Right. But I, if you're going and saying it's going to be good, period, that it can sort of not be maybe. I don't know.

[Sabine]

I think that in a way for me, like, it was definitely a mindset switch because I knew even as a sophomore when I was in France that I, when I got to Cal that I would want to join a sorority. So I kind of already had it in the back of my mind. And so I went into the summer before junior year being like, this is going to be really like, in my head I was like, this is going to be weird. Like, it's going to be weird to be a 20 year old with a bunch of 17 year olds going into recruitment with people who have just moved out of their house and like their hometowns. And, you know, I had all that craziness as a freshman and I was, in my head, I'm like, if I was a freshman, like, I was, I was really thinking back to my time and I was like, if I was a freshman in France and I had to go and do recruitment, I don't know, I, I would, I didn't feel like myself at that time because I had just moved out of my house. I had just moved like thousands and thousands of miles away from my parents and everything that I had known. And I feel like if I had gone into that experience and tried to do recruitment in that mindset, like in that version of me, I don't think I would have ended up in the most perfect place that I'm in now, if that makes sense.

[Jennifer Kessler]

It does make sense. And I think, you know, for our listeners either, sometimes Rush doesn't go well and maybe they want to try again as a sophomore or junior or for kids or, you know, girls that are transferring.

[Grace]

Right.

[Jennifer Kessler]

What you're describing right now, I think is, is super interesting and insightful because, you know, you could kind of go two ways, right? Like, I was sort of like, as a junior, huh? Like, I feel kind of silly with all these freshmen, but what you Just said, I wouldn't have been the same person freshman year.

[Sabine]

Right, right.

[Jennifer Kessler]

And so in terms of my own just self confidence, just sort of growing into myself, I had definitely had more of that as a junior. So just an interesting point for listeners who are thinking about maybe not rushing freshman year, rushing after that. Right.

[Sabine]

I think I needed the time because I, I, I think when I think about, like, just like my life in general, I think freshman year is the time that I grew the most, like, in a, in a span of time. Because obviously it's so crazy to move abroad. That's like the most insane, like, uproot of everything you've ever known. But then you're also kind of being forced to live alone and you're taking really hard classes and you're by yourself. Like, I didn't know anyone when I moved abroad and I didn't even speak French. So like a lot of really crazy, just like super crazy life experiences that over the span of the year, when I got back the summer after my freshman year, I was like, I feel different. Like, I could actively feel that I, like, had grown and had experienced things that I never would have realized. And I think that is, like, one of my biggest pieces of advice is if you think you like the idea of being in a sorority and you like the concept of, like, what it has to offer, offer in that sense of like, community and sisterhood, but you don't feel like when you get to school, you're yourself. Like, it seriously doesn't do any harm to join as a sophomore or to try it later or to do like, some schools offer spring recruitment or cob and do the whole, like, kind of get yourself some time to settle in and to start to feel like yourself again. Because those first couple weeks, at least for me, and I can confidently say for a lot of my friends, were so, like, unnerving and like, unsettling because you just didn't, you were in a space that you didn't recognize. And so to do all that and to feel that way and then to also have to like, basically elevate elevator, pitch yourself to girls for a week straight is very weird.

[Jennifer Kessler]

I would think so. I mean, especially coming from, you know, being abroad. And I, so I picture sort of, you know, abroad is so being, it's so worldly. Right. You're in, you said you didn't speak the language and you are just being exposed to this culture and then you're all of a sudden becoming a sorority girl. And I, whatever that means. Right. And I would think that. That would be a huge pivot. But, you know, interestingly enough, the way you're describing it, it worked for you.

[Sabine]

Right?

[Jennifer Kessler]

Like, if you think of, oh, I'm going to. I don't know, was it Paris? I don't know where you were.

[Sabine]

I was right outside of Paris. Yeah.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Okay, so you go to Paris for two years, you learn to speak the language, you're around Parisians, and now all of a sudden, you're a sorority girl. Right. Like, what? And I think that's so cool that, that, that, that. The way that. That worked for you. Yeah, I think that, like, as a mom, I remember really trying to convince both my kids, but particularly my daughter, to take a gap year, because I. I just think that it's an opportunity to sort of grow and grow into who you are and maybe become a little more self confident and self aware. She didn't. He didn't. But I think that it. It. For anybody maybe considering waiting a year, I agree with you. I think it's. It can be a no sort of fabulous way to just not be bombarded when you start school. Right?

[Sabine]

Yeah. And I think I've definitely. There's this sense of. When I. When I think about my time in dg, I have this sense of, like, big sister feeling, which has been like, I'm. I have an older sister, so I've always grown up being the younger sister, and I very much, like, have all the traits of a younger sister. And then I joined dg and I'm best friends with girls that are two years younger than me. Like, I got into a friend group of a bunch of freshmen as a junior, and I started to feel this sense of, like, purpose by joining. It's kind of weird. Like, I joined a sorority, and you'd expect that. It's like the stereotypes of, like, sorority girl and, like, parties and all this stuff. But then you join it and you're like, no. Like, I feel, like, very, like, maternal over, like, girls that are younger than me. And I feel this sense of, like, I have so much that I want to tell you and wisdom and all this stuff that I never have had a space to give because I've always been the younger sister.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Right.

[Sabine]

And I, like, join a house of girls that I'm like, I care so much about you guys and want you guys to have the best college experience. And so I want to, like, give you all this advice of things that I've been learning over my time.

[Jennifer Kessler]

I felt like that, too. That's so interesting, because I definitely, you know, Brushed as a junior, and then even I had to live in the house as a senior. So, you know, I'm a senior, and they're all sophomores. Yeah. And there was absolutely a difference in a good way, because I loved the whole pledge class. But that's so interesting. Yeah. And I think. I don't know, the big sort of. The big point I'm getting out of, like, just talking to you and if we can convey this is that you don't have to do it as a freshman and maybe even better. Right?

[Sabine]

Yeah. You. You kind of see this portrayal of sorority life through, like, movies and Instagram and stories you hear from older sisters and aunts and moms about, like, your time in a sorority and how it completely changes your life and you meet your bridesmaids. And I think I had this perception in my head that those are all things that happen when you're a freshman. Like, you meet your forever friends when you're a freshman.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Right.

[Sabine]

And then I show up at Cal as a junior, and if you had told me three years ago that I'd still be making best friends, like, my junior and senior year of college with girls than me, that I wouldn't have believed you. Because in your head, you think, like, oh, you meet your friends, like, right when you get to college, and those are the people you stick with. But, like, for me, and I've said this phrase to people before, because I always get the, like, oh, you're in a sorority. Like, especially for my friends in France, like, they kind of give me.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Yeah, that's what I was saying.

[Sabine]

They're kind of like, oh, you're a sorority girl. And I'm like, being in a sorority, to me, is the gift that keeps on giving. Like, that's the phrase I use because, like, you meet people and you become friends with people, and it's amazing. And then you're like, I can already see myself, like, when I graduate in May, I've already been meeting DG alum who are like, oh, my God. Like, I want to chat. Like, how was your time? Like, everyone, it's like, seriously, like, community.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Yeah.

[Sabine]

You feel that sense of, like, everyone was happy to be a part of it, and everyone's happy to continue to give back to it. And we have moms who come in and. And come to our chapter meetings and talk to us and, like, share their experiences and talk about their jobs and, like, help us with, like, networking, like, events and things like that. Like, there's so much to offer that it's not just that thing you do as a freshman and make friends. It's like you can do it whenever it works for you and you still feel that, like, amazing return. Like there's all. There's so much that keeps on being given to you.

[Jennifer Kessler]

I guess, Yeah, I love everything about that. And just because I'm a negative human. Is there anything about it that you didn't like?

[Sabine]

Not really, but I was trying to think about that. I was. I've been thinking, honestly, this is gonna sound really dumb. The only thing that I would say is a negative is the out of body experience you have when you're a junior and you step into a frat. Like, I would, I would go to initially when I joined that first semester, I would go to events with the girls in my PC who were all freshmen because, like, it's a bonding thing and it's fun and like your chapter president kind of tells you it's required to like, go to these social events. And I show up and I'm like, I feel old. Like, I feel weird that I'm like, at a frat.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sabine]

Like 20, 21. And I'm like, I shouldn't. Like, it's kind of the sense of like the target audience. Like, I am not the target audience for this type of event. And that's completely fine. And it's. I can, it's fun because I'm with my, like my best friends and we're having fun, whatever. But I'd say that's the only thing that like, has never. It never got like, easier.

[Jennifer Kessler]

I get that. I never like going into the frat houses, period, so. But wait, but in terms of rush though, is there anything just that, that process?

[Sabine]

Honestly, like, the recruitment process, for me, I think the only thing that felt weird was like, I really try to live my life in like a very honest, authentic way. And I felt guilty and almost kind of like it's a weird feeling to go to houses that, you know right off the bat you just don't click with. And there's nothing wrong with that. Like, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being. Because I. I'm really lucky. I was. I went through the recruitment process and then this past fall, I was a part of the recruitment process, so I was on the other side of it. It was really interesting to see, like, there are certain houses you just don't click with. And on one end of it, when you're going through recruitment, you kind of feel like you need to fake it and you kind of feel like you need to still, like, Give them your best and give them your all. Because you don't want to be rude, you don't want to, like, act like you don't care. But then on the other end of it, when you are recruiting, it's really heart wrenching to see girls that you know are amazing and would be friends with any day of the week and are awesome. But it's almost like you kind of need to make these, like, judgment calls of, like, are they the best fit for us? But also, are we the best fit for them? Like, can we do. Would they love our house as much as we think they might love this house? And so it's kind of like, that was always the weirdest part for me on both ends of it was like the mind, not mind games. That sounds, like, dramatic, but, like the behind the scenes of, like.

[Jennifer Kessler]

No, I get it, believe me.

[Sabine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Because you're. You are sort of weeding people out and weeding people in, and it's a. It's a strange thing. What did you enjoy more? Being on which side of it?

[Sabine]

Definitely going through recruitment.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Yeah.

[Sabine]

Like, being the cause. I love to chat. I love, like, I love. I love a, like, random stranger interaction. I love an elevator pitch. Like, I. It's kind of just my thing. I'm very extroverted and I enjoy it. So I almost. I actually had a Snapchat story during the whole week of recruitment that I added some of my, like, hometown friends and my France friends on. And I, like, would post little, like, outfit checks. Like, this is what I'm wearing today. This is what the round is. And then I would, after each house, I would, like, take a picture and be like, oh, my gosh. Had the best conversation about this. Like, love. Just also to help me remember everything.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Right.

[Sabine]

But I remember doing that and being like, honestly, this is, like, really good practice for, like, awkward conversations that you. Yeah, I was like, this is good, like, interview Network, like, awkward practice. And so I kind of interpreted the whole week, especially coming into it as a junior. I was like, this is good. Just like life experience. Like, I'm not seeing this as, like, the end all be all, because I'm already feeling so good in myself as a junior in college and in the friends that I have, have that it wasn't everything to me, which I almost think that's also maybe a bit of advice. I almost think that maybe taking some of the pressure off that, like, it'll work out. It always does. And people say that and you think it's a joke and you think it's cliche, but it really, really does. Like, it always finds a way to work itself out. You might not end up in the house that you thought you were going to be in, but you will find your people regardless. You might not even end up in a house at all. And you will go a different route in college, or you'll still be friends with girls and sororities, but you just won't be a part of it. Like, it will always work itself out. And I think when I was going through the recruitment process as a junior, I just felt that sense of like, I'm gonna take from this what I can get and I'm not gonna stress about all the other things. Like, it's just like I was like it's just gonna be fun. Like it's just gonna.

[Jennifer Kessler]

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[Gia Giudice]

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[Jennifer Kessler]

what

[Ben Higgins]

do you do when the headlines don't explain what's happening inside of you? I'm Ben Higgins and if you can hear me is where culture meets the soul. A place for real conversation. Each episode I sit down with people from all walks of life, celebrities, thinkers and everyday folks. And we go deeper than the polished story. We talk about what drives us, what shapes us and what gives us hope. We get honest about the big stuff. Identity when you don't recognize yourself anymore. Loss that changes your you purpose when success isn't enough. Peace when your mind won't slow down. Faith when it's complicated. Some guests have answers. Most are still figuring it out. If you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you. Listen to if you can hear me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jill Winterstein]

Hi, this is Jo Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast where we talk about astrology, natal charts and how to step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with a mini driver.

[Kate]

The Irish traveler said when I was

[Jennifer Kessler]

16, you're gonna have a terrible time with men.

[Jill Winterstein]

Actor, storyteller and unapologetic Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom, loving and different perspectives and I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius like are misunderstood a sun and Venus in Aquarius in her seventh house spark her unconventional approach to partnership.

[Jennifer Kessler]

He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms on different houses, in different places, but just an embracing of the isness of it all.

[Jill Winterstein]

If you're navigating your own transformation or just want a chart side view into how a leading artist integrates a shot astrology, creativity and real life, this episode is a must. Listen. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your podcast.

[Jennifer Kessler]

All right, you guys. So now we are bringing in Grace. Hi Grace.

[Molly]

Hi.

[Grace]

How are you?

[Molly]

How are you?

[Jennifer Kessler]

Good. How are you doing? Good. We're talking about Rush, the good, the bad, the ugly and I believe from my Little notes here that you actually were not a huge fan of the Rush process.

[Grace]

I was not. I have kind of mixed feelings.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Right.

[Grace]

So I. My freshman year of college was 2020, so obviously when I was rushing, it was very different than other people's experience because we did it all online. It was via Zoom, and I just feel like it's harder to connect with people that way. And especially when you're making such a big decision on a house, it's hard to not be in that environment and get to interact with people face to face. Yeah, I feel like that kind of threw a wrench in my experience initially. And going through Zoom recruitment, just. It didn't end up going very well for me. I got dropped by a lot of the houses, and I took it all very personally because I did care about it a lot, and I really wanted to get into, especially at the time, like, what I considered a top house. I cared so much about that freshman year.

[Jennifer Kessler]

What is it called? What do they call it? Top tier. They didn't call it that when I went, but top.

[Grace]

Yeah, like top house or whatever. Top tier house. Yeah. And I feel like after it not going well the first time and having kind of a year of distance from it, I initially thought I would never do it again. But I did end up deciding to go through with Rush again sophomore year after not getting in the first time. And I will say I had a much better experience the second time because we got to do it in person. I felt like I got a more cohesive vibe of each of the houses, and I had already made some friends in each one, which made it really a better experience. Just having connections, I think, is so important when it comes to Rush. And so I think the second time doing it redeemed itself a little bit, but I don't know the whole thing for me, it just felt very judgmental, and you kind of feel like this spotlight is put on you, and, I don't know, it was an interesting experience.

[Kate]

Can you.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Do you have any. Do you have any, like, specific memories of it where, you know, you just felt like you were being judged or.

[Grace]

Yeah, I feel like I can think of two examples. One, I don't know how it works at other schools, but at the school that I was at the first round of recruitment, you actually don't talk to the girls at all. You submit a slide with a picture or a couple pictures of you, and then you answer these three questions, and all the girls in the sororities go through these slides, and then the first round of Recruitment is them going through the slides and picking girls that they want back based on those. And then from a potential new members perspective, you watch a video of each sorority and you kind of rank them based on the vibe of the video and like, where you think you might fit in best. And I feel like because they did it that way, it feels very impersonal and like they're just looking at a picture of you and kind of ruling you out and you can't get a feel for the person really, at all.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Yeah, I think that sounds hideous, if I'm being honest. Like, it's like, okay, we're judging you on your looks. Go.

[Kate]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Grace]

And I mean, you know that these girls are using Instagram and tick tock and social media just to kind of stalk people beforehand too. And so I think for me, what made me feel really judged off the bat was like, almost like how impersonal the first round was. And that's your first impression, you know, and if you can get cuts from

[Jennifer Kessler]

some of the houses, you know you wanted.

[Grace]

I got dropped by a lot of them, especially the first time that I rushed. And honestly, the second time that I rushed, I got more. I dropped by more than I expected to as well. And I think it's hard when you can't make your own first impression. It feels like you're just ruling people out too early.

[Jennifer Kessler]

I think it's so interesting also just talking to you and looking at you and you're clearly, you're pretty and you're clearly sweet and smart and all of that. Right. So. But I'm sure it does take a toll. You're. You're, you know, you're putting your picture out there and somebody saying, no, I don't want you. Which is, you know, hard for me to imagine looking at you. But it happens to everyone.

[Grace]

Totally. It's hard not to take personal, especially at such a pivotal time in your life where you're coming into this new environment, you're probably moving states or moving out of your home for the first time. Like, I think you're more likely to take things personal. And I know that that's kind of where I was at when I was 18 years old. So I think that that first round, just the way that they did it at my school to me, felt a little bit more judgmental. And then I feel like within Russian stuff, you know, your conversations can go a million different ways. And the house that I ended up in, I had great conversations with and I didn't feel judged for a second. But some People like to ask more invasive questions about boys or parties and stuff like that and those kind of conversations. I feel like lines can get blurred and people can misinterpret things, and it feels.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Give an example.

[Grace]

There was one house that I talked to, and this was when I rushed sophomore year the second time. And they were like, so how many boys have you hooked up with since you've been at school?

[Jennifer Kessler]

Wow.

[Grace]

I was like, first of all, what kind of question is that? Second of all, yeah, what are you gonna take from that?

[Jennifer Kessler]

Not really. Legal? Yes, exactly.

[Sabine]

Yeah.

[Grace]

Like, what about that adds value to me or something like that? You know, it's weird.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Yeah. We had a guest before you who said that there were three Bs that she couldn't talk about during Boys, the Bible and maybe.

[Kate]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Grace]

But they asked those questions anyways. And I feel like it's always those kind of questions that make you feel

[Kate]

like, oh, is this the.

[Grace]

Where I want to be? If they're judging me based off of these things, you know, I mean, what

[Jennifer Kessler]

are you supposed to say? Oh, my God, I have been with so many boys, I can't even keep track? Or, like, no, I didn't. What do you want me to say? Exactly.

[Kate]

Exactly.

[Grace]

It's, like, hard because I feel like you can't really give a right answer to that question.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Right, right, right.

[Grace]

Because judgment can be placed either way.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Do you feel like after, you know, you got rejected from the first round or whatever, from. Did your mood change? Like, was it harder for you then to. Like. I just know sometimes in life, right. If we get rejected, it sets a tone. Like, if you're having an experience like this, right. And it doesn't go well at the beginning, it can set a tone for the rest of it. And you can. You could feel more nervous, more insecure. Do you feel like it? That's what happened.

[Grace]

Yeah, I do feel like that's kind of what happened. I remember freshman year when I rushed, that kind of did set the tone for me. I got dropped by a lot of houses initially, and I was like, oh, wow. Already my expectations have not been met. I'm really thrown for a loop. I'm taking it personal, and I feel like that kind of snowballed into maybe my attitude throughout the rest of Rush, which in turn ended up being a huge life lesson for me when I redid Rush sophomore year. And I feel like that time, maybe what pushed me through to the end or what made me more successful in it was the fact that I kind of realized, like, okay, Maybe people will help me out in the beginning, but that doesn't mean that I can't redeem myself in the conversations that I have later on or keep an open mind to houses that maybe I didn't expect, having great connections with and stuff like that. So I feel like. To your point, Yeah, I definitely feel like that could have been maybe a downfall for me the first time I went through rash and somewhere where I was actually able to redeem myself the second time, so.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Right, right. And. And what advice would you give to our listeners who have had a similar experience? They didn't get in, you know, to be able to not only do it, but also sort of maybe even enjoy the rush process the second time around.

[Grace]

I think that the second time around, it's almost like you really have nothing to lose. You know, you're going into this again. You've already created a life for yourself at school where you are a little more settled with your friends, hopefully, or a little more settled in a new city or whatever the case may be. And so it's like, if you've already built ground for yourself and gotten through freshman year maybe without having been in a sorority, I think it's just realizing, like, okay, I feel secure in what I've built beforehand. I'm going into this, and if it goes well, awesome. But if it doesn't, I know that I'm going to be able to recover. So I'd say, like, give yourself credit for what you've already been through, because it is kind of hard to feel like you're on the outside of something if you didn't get into a sorority freshman year. And I think that it's all about just, like, being grateful for what you do have and keeping in mind that it's not a huge loss if it doesn't go well, but it could be a great addition if it does go right.

[Jennifer Kessler]

I love that. Thanks. Well, so the house that you're in, you got into, was that a house that you expected or you wanted to get into or was. Did that? Yeah, you know, like, the first time around, the set versus the second time around.

[Grace]

I remember really liking this house the first time around, and I was kind of shocked that I got dropped by them. So they were definitely on my radar when I went back sophomore year, although a lot of my friends were in different houses. So I was like, do I want to do what my friends want to do? Or would I maybe want to join this house that I don't have as many friends in? But I remember really liking and, yeah, I ended up just kind of having the best conversations there, and it definitely was, like, one that was towards the top of my list. So I was really happy to get it, and I feel like I was really happy to then make more connections within it. And the girls were great, and it ended up being a really, really fun time.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Is there any. My last question. Do you think there's anything you could suggest that would make Rush a better experience? You know, it's interesting, obviously, you know, doing it the way you did, submitting pictures freshman year, I'm thinking you would say that's not a good idea. Yeah, you wouldn't suggest that. But anything else, you. Any twists or things that you think could make it a better process?

[Grace]

I feel like kind of what I was talking about earlier, attitude and perspective is everything. If you're someone who's going into Rush, it's just really important, I think mostly to keep an open mind because.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Grace]

And I think I would also recommend not really talking to other people about it. I think maybe freshman year, where I got so in my head about it was were on these zooms. It's Covid. My roommate is sitting next to me on zooms, and it's all going really well for her. And then we're spending hours talking about it after, and everyone in my dorm is like, what house do you. Like, what house do you think you're getting into? What this, what that? And I think just being mindful of canceling out some of that noise and maybe not asking all the questions to other people or not giving away too much information to other people and just keeping it more of a personal experience. I feel like that would have been kind of helpful for me because at the end of the day, it is your decision, and you never want other people's opinions or judgment to cloud your own.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Okay. I think that is great advice. I think, actually, I'm thrilled that that's what you are offering to our listeners. I think that it sounds to me as an older person, like that's going to be something really helpful that our listeners.

[Grace]

I hope so. Yeah, I hope.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Well done. All right, guys, so now we have Molly. Hi, Molly. Thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, yeah. We're talking about Rush, and we've had callers that have loved it and callers that have hated it. And I. This must be about me somehow, that I want to talk more to the ones that hated it than loved it. I don't know why I feel that way, but I just think it's first of all, it's a very hard thing. And I think talking about that is going to help a lot of our listeners, because I think that, you know, people have all kinds of experiences, and I think especially talking to people like you who didn't like Rush and still ended up in a sorority. So tell me a little bit about your experience. How did it go and why wasn't it the best?

[Molly]

Yeah, so I didn't love it. I actually really didn't like it because I felt like they were trying to have me be a certain way, talk a certain way. And it also was kind of. It felt degrading the way that they chose who was gonna talk the most, who was gonna be on the floor. It was very clear the system that they were doing, whether it was looks or it was. I don't know, like, they just. They wanted to put, like, the certain people forward, and it was kind of degrading. It wasn't a fair. Wasn't a fair representation of the entire group. So. That I didn't love. But, yeah, mostly I would say it was. They wanted us to use a specific dialogue. And I love to talk to people. I love to get to know people, and I know that people enjoy me as well, so I was excited to do this. At first, we couldn't discuss a lot of the topics that would be fun to talk about, which I can understand to an extent, but it definitely felt like they were trying to put something forward that wasn't specific to the individual. In my experience, we weren't allowed to talk about boys, booze, and.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Right. The bees.

[Molly]

The bees. And I can't remember the third B, but it was Bible, maybe. Yeah, okay, that could be it, but. And, like, I didn't need to talk about boys or booze or anything, but that's one, for example, that we weren't allowed to. But it definitely made it uncomfortable when they would bring it up, and we had to, like, redirect the conversation. It was just a very forced discussion, and it just made feel very unnatural. And then I'm stressed, the other women are stressed, and everyone's kind of putting on a face or putting on a show, and it just becomes, like, inauthentic versus, like, the. Versus, like, the fraternities. It's just a lot more laid back, and I think it shows who the

[Jennifer Kessler]

boys are more than the Rush process with. Yeah, right. Yeah. So I just want to make sure I have it. I understand. So they would tell you, don't talk about boys, and then you would have these girls bringing up boys. And you had it like, was. Did they know that they were doing that to you? Is it purposeful that they were trying to see how you could evade a question or. Or you don't even know. Maybe you don't know.

[Molly]

I think they would forget because I do know that they have the same rules, so they're not supposed to bring it up, but I think they would maybe forget or maybe they would try and show that they're. Oh, whoops, I didn't know. But I do like to party or, like, they would want to say something.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Right.

[Molly]

And I do know that some of the sororities would not completely follow the rules. And then I think that was, like, a good look or. But not a good look for.

[Jennifer Kessler]

So complicated. Right?

[Molly]

It's like, yeah, it's just kind of ridiculous.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Yeah, it could just be. I know. It, it. And we're talking to, you know, quite a number of you guys today and a lot of people that really just loved every single minute of it and then those that didn't. And I can kind of, you know, relate to both because it's very hard to be your authentic self in these situations, right. When you're trying to please people and you're trying to put forth your best self, not even knowing what that really is. Would you have any advice for our listeners that either. Well, you know, some of our listeners, they've already. They're in now, or they're going to go through spring. Like, any advice for girls that are hating it and feeling all of these ways about it and, you know, is there anything you could suggest that could help?

[Molly]

I mean, I would say to be yourself. I know, like, everyone says that, but I really mean it. Like, you just want to put yourself forward and show who you are, and the right sorority who sees the value in you will come. But it's also, at the same time, the system is so messed up that even if you are showing your best self, you never know, like, what the qualifications are that they need. Like, maybe your grades aren't it, or if you're in a sport and they won't. They don't want people in a sport or, I don't know, like, there's a lot of things that will get you denied and it has nothing to do with you or, like, your personality or whatever. So I would definitely say do not take it personal whatsoever, because it's literally the weirdest system ever.

[Kate]

So that's kind of my advice, I guess.

[Jennifer Kessler]

I mean, I think it's so great because we're having, again, we're having these girls on here that, that loved it. And I think that that's helpful for our listeners because they can get excited about the process. And, you know, also just some, some girls like you that are very honest and real about it and say it wasn't the best, but in the end, I'm glad I did it, you know, so we can kind of help maybe set expectations here. And I know it's. It's true. It's like, that's advice for at my age, you know, that's. I get the advice. Just be yourself. You don't even know at your age, I didn't know who myself was. So that was not an easy thing. Right. And. And now it's like the buzzwords are all about. It's all, you know, be authentic. And at, again, now at age 57, I'm way more aware of who I am and it's way easier for me to be authentically Jennifer. But I think that's probably hard for a lot of people, you know, at 18 and. But just as opposed to. I mean, I just remember wanting everyone to like me so badly and it didn't matter if I knew I was going to even be in the house. Like, I don't. This is not the house for me. I still was. It was so much pressure. Pressure to try to impress everyone.

[Grace]

Totally.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Yeah. And so, I mean, that. That aspect of it can be really difficult.

[Kate]

So I do think about, like, I

[Molly]

totally understand that where, like, you don't really know who you are. But I think when I say be yourself, it's like in that moment, because I feel like. I feel like the way to be authentic is just to kind of be vulnerable and like, say. Because I feel like each week, I agree, I'm in a different place each week, literally. So, like, if I'm just vulnerable about what I'm feeling in my experience when this happened, or with question, like, I don't know who I am, but, like, that's what I'm feeling. And this is.

[Jennifer Kessler]

That's like, the truth of what's going on with you. So I, I tell that to my daughter and I've learned that I. I'm so impressed that you know this about yourself because being vulnerable now, after all, you know, after going through college and life and marriage and kids, and I connect with people most when I'm being vulnerable, honest and vulnerable. And I have found, again, sort of off topic. So excuse me, but if I had a, you know, impart any advice to someone your age and I'm not saying go in and on a first meeting and tell everyone your deepest, darkest necessarily. But be comfortable being vulnerable. You know, I don't know. I'm really. This is whole thing is a lot for me and you know, I am kind of a shy person or.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Whatever it is. And not just in during rush. Right. But to be open because people will almost always. At least that's in my experience then be vulnerable. Vulnerable with you. And it's a really. It's a great way to connect. So solving all the world's problems here, seriously. Right.

[Molly]

Everyone needs to tune into this and you'll feel.

[Jennifer Kessler]

Yes, please. Yes, please. I loved having you. I'm sorry you didn't love rush, but it sounds like you did love being in a sorority.

[Molly]

Absolutely.

[Jennifer Kessler]

And you're doing your thing now.

[Grace]

Yes.

[Jennifer Kessler]

It all works out okay, lovey.

[Sabine]

This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human.