Legally Brunette: Ellen Greenberg - Suicide or Homicide?

Summary

Two Ts In A Pod: Legally Brunette - Ellen Greenberg: Suicide or Homicide?

Podcast: Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge
Episode: Legally Brunette: Ellen Greenberg – Suicide or Homicide?
Date: October 7, 2025
Hosted by: Emily Simpson & Shane Simpson (Legally Brunette on Two Ts in a Pod feed)

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Main Theme and Purpose

This detailed episode focuses on the mysterious case of Ellen Greenberg, a Philadelphia first-grade teacher who was found dead with 20 stab wounds in her apartment in 2011. The controversial investigation and rapid switches between ruling her death a suicide and then a homicide—and back again—provide a springboard for Emily and Shane to interrogate evidence, question official findings, and discuss the ongoing fight by Ellen’s parents to have the case re-examined. The episode is equal parts recap of the recent Hulu series Death in Apartment 603: What Happened to Ellen Greenberg? and a legal/social autopsy fueled by true crime curiosity.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Case Overview and Media Recap

• [10:35-13:03] Emily introduces the Hulu series about Ellen Greenberg and offers a brief recap of the case:
  • January 2011: Ellen found dead in her Philadelphia apartment with 20 stab wounds, kitchen knife in her chest.
  • Fiance Sam Goldberg found her after breaking through a latched door.
  • Police quickly ruled suicide; medical examiner first ruled homicide, then changed back to suicide.

"When you see a headline and the headline is 'stabbed 20 times. Suicide or murder?', you say, 'well, she... was clearly, yeah, murdered. Because how does someone stab themselves 20 times?'"
— Emily Simpson [12:12]

2. Ellen’s Mental State and Relationship Context

• [14:03-19:21] The hosts reconstruct Ellen’s life and deteriorating mental health:
  • Ellen’s parents and friends noted a drastic behavioral change in the months prior—anxiety, desire to quit job and move home.
  • She attended three psychiatrist appointments and was prescribed Klonopin and Ambien.
  • Psych notes just before her death: “not suicidal”, “75% better”.
  • Ellen’s texts revealed struggles, especially regarding her job, desire to escape, and feeling unsupported by her fiancé.

"To me, she was spiraling, and she was becoming increasingly depressed and increasingly upset... It makes me sad because I feel like people missed... how clearly sad she was."
— Emily Simpson [16:15]

• Shane questions the lack of support from Sam:

“He would say things like, ‘you’re not a quitter’, and that bothered me.”
— Emily Simpson [15:36]

3. Day of Death Timeline

• [20:46-27:54] The timeline on January 26, 2011 is meticulously pieced together:
  • Snowstorm (“nor’easter”) causes early release from school.
  • Ellen comes home, works from her laptop, communicates with friends, and is last digitally active at 4:45pm.
  • Sam leaves for the gym at 4:45pm, returns at 5:30pm but can't get in—the latch is locked from inside.
  • He calls and texts angrily (“Hello? Open the door. What are you doing? I’m getting pissed…”) [23:19].
  • Neighbors hear Sam trying to force entry, but nothing else.
  • Eventually, Sam breaks down the door at 6:30pm, finds Ellen, and calls 911.

“If you’re not answering the door… the first thing you do is see if they’re okay. This guy is getting pissed at her, like she’s refusing to open the door… Is that normal behavior for them?”
— Shane Simpson [23:54]

4. Investigation Response & Crime Scene Handling

• [27:54-44:57] The hosts highlight several investigative failings and peculiarities:
  • Police quickly accept the scenario as suicide due to the locked door and Ellen’s mental health history.
  • Sam’s uncle (a lawyer) gains access to the apartment the next day—retrieves not just a suit, but Ellen’s devices, purse, pays for and triggers a crime scene clean-up before the autopsy is reviewed.
  • Conflict between the medical examiner (initially ruling homicide, citing multiple deep wounds and old bruises) and police.

“His uncle that is asking for access to the apartment immediately. And he does it to get a suit. He says it's under the pretense of wanting to get a suit, probably for the funeral… He takes the computer to her purse and her phone, and he also pays for a crime scene cleanup to come in and wipe everything down.”
— Emily Simpson [44:11]

5. Autopsy and Forensic Doubts

• [46:00-49:09] Dr. Marlon Osborne’s autopsy documented:
  • Multiple stab wounds (chest, abdomen, back of neck, aorta, lung, spine).
  • 11 bruises at different healing stages.
  • Still, the final determination kept shifting after police meetings.
  • Uncertainty if she had any suicide precursors aside from recent anxiety.
  • Superficial wounds mixed with lethal ones; typical in hesitation suicides, but rare in stabbings.

“A lot of people, if they—not a lot of people choose stabbing for suicide, let’s be clear!—but if they do, there are a lot of times… hesitation wounds.”
— Emily Simpson [46:56]

6. Points for Suicide and Homicide

• [62:26-64:09] Evidence for Suicide:

  • Shallow hesitation stabs.
  • No defensive wounds.
  • Door locked from the inside.
  • No disturbance, struggle, or forced entry.
  • Search history found for “methods of committing suicide” (despite chain of custody issues).

• [64:09-68:41] Evidence for Homicide:

  • Possible post-mortem wound (lack of hemorrhaging at spinal cord).
  • Bruising on neck possibly indicating strangulation.
  • Multiple healing bruises (suggests prior abuse).
  • Sam’s odd and delayed recognition of the knife in 911 call.
  • No witness to his door-break except Sam.
  • Uncle’s premature intervention disrupting evidentiary chain.
  • Clean white towel in Ellen’s hand, very little blood on it.

“The wounds on the back of the neck... on the spinal cord, the pathologist was of the opinion that because there was no hemorrhaging, that cut occurred after death… that could have been struck after death, which obviously means it wasn’t suicide because she can’t stab herself if she’s already deceased.”
— Emily Simpson [64:30]

• Shane comments on the lack of defensive wounds:

“You would think that if it was a blitz attack… that she would put her hands up… there were no defensive wounds… and only her DNA on the knife.”
— Shane Simpson [61:36; 62:10]

7. Official Delays, Parental Advocacy, and Recent Developments

• [73:53-75:05] Ellen’s parents maintain a legal and public fight for justice:
  • Two civil lawsuits (2019, 2022) against the Medical Examiner’s Office and the City of Philadelphia, citing botched investigation and coverup.
  • 2025: Settlement includes agreement to reclassify death as “undetermined” and conduct a new independent autopsy.
  • As of this episode, outcome of new autopsy and findings still pending, with a court hearing set for October 14.

“He reportedly made the decision after reviewing new information in the case and consulting with a pediatric neuropathologist. The settlement also included an undisclosed amount of money… Despite the settlement earlier this year, the Greenbergs claim they have received no updates or news regarding Ellen’s case."
— Emily Simpson [73:11]

8. The Hosts' Theories and Emotional Takeaways

• The hosts vacillate between both possible verdicts, highlighting the sheer ambiguity and emotional toll.
• Emily leans, tentatively, toward suicide based on the weight of direct evidence but admits doubt and frustration.
• Shane pushes back on details in the suicide narrative, especially the lack of deep mental health/criminal history and the odd behavior of Sam and his uncle.

_“I’m more frustrated ending this podcast than I was starting it… Just enough evidence to be confused."
— Shane Simpson [57:08, 73:49]

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Emily on case complexity:
  “At the end of the day, it reminds me of just like the Karen Reed case where the only people that know what happened don’t speak. Don’t speak. And I don’t know if we’ll, we’ll ever actually know what happened, but we’re going to talk about it.” [11:08]

• On Sam’s angry texts as Ellen is unresponsive:
  “He’s not saying, are you okay? … He’s pissed.” — Emily Simpson [24:21-24:30]

• On the broken chain of custody:
  “The chain of custody is broken when the uncle comes and takes it [the laptop].” — Emily Simpson [56:25]

• Medical examiner’s flip-flopping:
  “Following the meeting with investigators, Dr. Osborne made an unprecedented decision to change his original ruling. He reversed his earlier classification of the death as a homicide and… concluded that Ellen’s death was actually a suicide. Dr. Osborne has stated that no notes were taken and there is no recording of this important meeting.” — Emily Simpson [59:36-60:41]

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Important Timestamps

• [10:35] Case introduction: Ellen Greenberg summary and Hulu series mention
• [14:03] Ellen’s psychological struggles begin
• [20:46] Day of death timeline starts
• [23:19] Sam’s text messages to Ellen when locked out
• [27:54] Key investigative sequence: police/timeline breakdown
• [44:11] Uncle's intervention, evidence/scene destruction
• [46:00] Autopsy findings and hesitation wounds discussion
• [54:41] Debated web search history and chain of custody issues
• [59:36] ME’s ruling change after private meeting with police
• [61:13] Ellen’s parents react to cause-of-death flip-flop
• [62:26 & 64:09] Side-by-side lists: evidence for suicide vs homicide
• [73:53] Legal battle by Ellen’s parents and settlement
• [75:05] Upcoming October 14 court date

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Tone and Style

Throughout, Emily and Shane maintain a conversational, questioning, and sometimes playfully argumentative style, rooted in legal analysis and true crime enthusiast energy. They express genuine frustration and empathy both for Ellen’s parents and for the murkiness of the investigation.

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In Summary

Emily and Shane deliver a thorough dissection of the Ellen Greenberg case, highlighting the contradictions, forensic ambiguities, and emotional toll on the family. The episode effectively balances skepticism and compassion, offering listeners a detailed case breakdown, social insight, and a reminder of the complexities facing both justice and those left seeking it.

"I don’t know… that’s the question. Was it a suicide or a homicide? It’s enough evidence on both sides to confuse you. That’s right."
— Emily Simpson [73:50]

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Next steps: Listeners are encouraged to follow upcoming developments, particularly the October 14 hearing and results from the independent autopsy, as Ellen Greenberg’s still-unresolved death remains one of the great contemporary unsolved mysteries in true crime.

Transcript

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[Sophie Cunningham]

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[Emily Simpson]

So you're telling me that the AI that's meant to make everyone's job easier to manage just adds more to manage? On top of the thousands of apps the IT department already manages? Funny how that works. Any business can add AI. IBM helps you scale and manage AI to change how you do business. Let's create Smile to Business IBM, You've.

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[Emily Simpson]

Welcome to a new episode of Legally Brunette. I will be your host today, Emily Simpson with Shane with Shane Simpson. First of all, just a reminder to everyone that we are now on our own feed. So when we have weekly episodes they will go on to our new own Legally Brunette feed. So please make sure that if you haven't done so already, make sure that you find us wherever you listen to your podcast. Make sure you follow us, leave a review if you would like.

[Shane Simpson]

Join the Community Join the community.

[Emily Simpson]

All right, we're going to do a few updates first before we go into the Ellen Greenberg case. First of all, I know that you've probably seen Diddy in the news again, so if you do Remember that? The. The jury acquitted Combs of racketeering and sex trafficking charges back in July, but convicted him on two of the lesser charges, which were transporting former girlfriends for prostitution. The judge Subramanian sentenced Sean Diddy Combs just recently to 50 months in prison and fined him $500,000 and ordered five years of supervised release. Before he was sentenced, Combs addressed the judge begging for mercy and apologizing for his sick actions. You know, I also saw, and I don't know if you saw this, but also saw that his defense team made a, Like a montage, like, a video.

[Shane Simpson]

Of what?

[Emily Simpson]

Of him, like, being with his family. I. I think they were trying to show.

[Shane Simpson]

Trying. They're trying to make him like a human.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, like. Yeah, they're trying to humanize him. So apparently they showed some video montage of him, you know, with, like, his kids and being a dad, and it's like, forget about all that other shady stuff that he was involved in.

[Shane Simpson]

This is the real trial right here.

[Emily Simpson]

So prosecutors had pushed for more than 11 years, while the defense sought 14 months, which would have equaled the time he had already served. Since Combs has been in custody Since September of 2024, that would have been time served. He was already done 14 months. So obviously his defense was pushing for the amount of time he's already served. He will receive credit for over a year that he served, but however, he's still going to have to serve the 50 months.

[Shane Simpson]

But 50 months, do they say, like, when he's eligible for parole or any. Any early.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't, I don't know that. But usually, you know, just based upon just what we know in general terms, most people serve about half of their sentence.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh. Unless it's a federal. Is this federal crimes?

[Emily Simpson]

Federal crime.

[Shane Simpson]

Right. Yeah, I think he's obligated to serve.

[Emily Simpson]

Like, 80% or 80%.

[Shane Simpson]

Either way, it's not enough. It's only a couple years, really.

[Emily Simpson]

Three.

[Shane Simpson]

Three more years at the most.

[Emily Simpson]

I also read today, right before we started doing this podcast, I saw an article that said that he had already book speaking engagement prior to his sentencing that I guess he was so sure that he was gonna, you know, get released.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, really? He had a release party?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, he had. He already had a speaking engagement that.

[Shane Simpson]

He already had everyone sign the NDAs for the new party.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. So that's where we're at with Diddy. Also, if you haven't listened yet, we did do an episode on the yogurt shop murders, which was in the city of Austin. This was back in 1991. And we were talking about when we just recently did this episode about there was some DNA evidence. Do you remember at the end of the episode of the yogurt shop murders, we talked about how there was some DNA evidence. And I had read that the FBI had tested it, and they felt like they knew who it was, but they weren't giving that information.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah. Because of privacy concerns.

[Emily Simpson]

We were wondering. Right. What that was about. And then, lo and behold, right after we released that episode, there came all this new information that they had solved this crime, which I have never seen happen, but the timing of it was impeccable.

[Shane Simpson]

So I think we caused an outrage.

[Emily Simpson]

We did. I think everyone listens.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay, okay. We'll release it.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. Everyone listens to Legally Brunette. And then they were just. They were just like, we founded.

[Shane Simpson]

Like, this is unacceptable petition. Everyone called their congressman, and it was all exactly squared away.

[Emily Simpson]

So good job, Shane. Making things happen in the. In the true crime world. So In June of 2025, Detective Daniel Jackson, he determined that a.38 cartridge that was found in a drain at the scene of the I can't believe it's yogurt. Had not been submitted into the national integrated ballistic information network in many years, and that the software had greatly improved. So In July of 2025, they received a hit to an unsolved 1998 murder in Kentucky. In August of 2025, Detective Jackson requested a YSTR DNA search from all labs in the US that kept YSTR profiles. And the South Carolina state lab was the only lab that found a complete YSTR match from a 1990 Greenville, South Carolina, sexual assault and murder. The profile belonged to known serial killer and rapist Robert Eugene Brashers. Robert Eugene Brashers committed suicide back in 1999 with the same make and model of weapon used to shoot Amy Ayers, which was one of the girls that was murdered in the yogurt shop murders with a.380 pistol. Detective Jackson also learned that on December 8th of 1991, less than 48 hours after the yogurt shop murders, Brashers was stopped by border patrol at a westbound checkpoint between El Paso, Texas, Texas, and Las Cruces, New Mexico. He was driving a stolen car out of Georgia and was in possession of a.38 pistol. We have confirmed that this is the same gun that he used to commit suicide in 1999 as the serial numbers match. So.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, wow.

[Emily Simpson]

So there we go.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah. So the bullets matched, right?

[Emily Simpson]

That's what they said. And the DNA matched.

[Shane Simpson]

But all the way back in early 90s, they had that evidence.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, they saved the bullet, right? Right.

[Shane Simpson]

But they couldn't. They didn't match it until more recently.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

Wow, that's crazy. It just goes to show you there's so much room for error, unfortunately.

[Emily Simpson]

And it goes to show you how, how, how scientific things can be and how the science is constantly improving and that things that couldn't be solved years and years ago now when you take a second look.

[Shane Simpson]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

Because they can be. And it's also did they hold on to the evidence? Did they preserve it correctly? Can they retest the DNA?

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[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or osa, in adults with obesity, they may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lily, a medicine company.

[Emily Simpson]

All right, let's move on. This is a new Hulu series called the Death of Ellen Greenberg. And the big question that looms over this case was, did Ellen Greenberg commit suicide or was it a murder? I will tell you. First of all, I watched the series. It's a three parter on Hulu.

[Shane Simpson]

What's it called?

[Emily Simpson]

It's called death in apartment 603. What happened to Ellen Greenberg? I watched it twice, actually, because you always miss things the first time. And I don't know, it's like I watched it.

[Shane Simpson]

First time you thought it was suicide. The second time you watched it, you thought it was a murder.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, it's like I watch it and I think one way and then I'm like, I'm gonna watch it again. And then I just, I don't know. We're just gonna go through it because this is a convoluted, complex case. And honestly, at the end of the day, it reminds me of just like the Karen Reed case where the only people that know what happened don't speak. Don't speak. And I don't know if we'll, we'll ever actually know what happened, but we're going to talk about it. So let's just do a brief synopsis.

[Shane Simpson]

That's what we do.

[Emily Simpson]

That's what we do.

[Shane Simpson]

We unsolve. We don't solve mysteries.

[Emily Simpson]

We don't.

[Shane Simpson]

We talk about unsolved mysteries.

[Emily Simpson]

We talk about them. We dissect it, we give opinions.

[Shane Simpson]

And then, and then it'll get solved. And then someone else podcast.

[Emily Simpson]

So let's do a brief synopsis of this case. If you haven't heard about it. In January of 2011, a first grade teacher named Ellen Greenberg was found dead with 20 stab wounds in her kitchen in a Philadelphia apartment.

[Shane Simpson]

First of all, okay, right there you think murder, right?

[Emily Simpson]

And I will tell you, I didn't know a lot about this case, but I had heard of it before. And when I say I'd heard of it, I mean, I saw headlines, right? And when you see a headline and the headline is stabbed 20 times. Suicide or murder, you say, well, she.

[Shane Simpson]

Was clearly, yeah, murdered.

[Emily Simpson]

Because how, how does someone stab themselves 20 times? But we're clearly going to get into that. After breaking down a latched door, Sam Goldberg, Ellen's fiance, discovered her body with a 10 inch long kitchen knife sticking out of her Chest and stab wounds to her back and also to her head. At the scene, police shocked all of Ellen's family and friends when they ruled her death a suicide. This is immediately like, this is not an in depth investigation.

[Shane Simpson]

Well, at this point, it doesn't need to be. If you see all those wounds, you're gonna be quick to assume.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, let's, let's just take it back a step, because I don't think they knew that there were 20 stab wounds until the medical examiner did the autopsy later.

[Shane Simpson]

So they walk in and they see blood everywhere, knife wounds, and they think their first thought is suicide.

[Emily Simpson]

What department is this? Well, let's go through it. What department is this? We gotta. We gotta take a deep dive. So after police removed her body, a professional crime scene cleaning company wiped down the kitchen thoroughly. The next day, I believe it was.

[Shane Simpson]

The next day crime scene cleaning.

[Emily Simpson]

It was a crime scene.

[Shane Simpson]

It wasn't like kind of housekeepers. We need.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, I need a. I need that company.

[Shane Simpson]

It's not cutting it. What we got.

[Sophie Cunningham]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

We got a lot of kids and a lot of dogs. Yeah. Then just days later, during her funeral, the Philadelphia medical examiner's office ruled the case a homicide. Then inexplicably, four months later, Ellen's cause of death was switched back to suicide. The city of Philadelphia closed the case without further investigation. And Ellen Greenberg's bizarre and tragic death is the subject of what we just talked about. The ABC News Studios docu series death in apartment 603. What happened to Ellen Greenberg? All right, let's start with a timeline of events, and let's go through this. So we. First we have to talk about Ellen and Sam's relationship. So back in 2007, Ellen met her fiance, Sam Goldberg, through a mutual friend, and they went on a blind date. After three years of dating, Sam proposed to Ellen on the beach during a trip to California. And Ellen and Sam moved to an apartment in Maniac Philadelphia together. This is still. We're still back in 2010. In the month leading up to her death, Ellen's parents and friends began to notice a significant change in her behavior. Ellen, who had always been cheerful and composed, became increasingly anxious and stressed. When questioned about these changes, Ellen attributed her anxiety to work pressures and the stress of planning her wedding, which was scheduled for August of that year. In December of 2010, her anxiety had reached a point where she even expressed a desire to quit her job. You know, she did this multiple times. They show text messages in the series where she's. She's texting her Mom. And she's texting her fiance saying how much she hates her job and how stressful it is, you know, and it is. It is really hard to have a job. I. I taught high school for four years before I went to law school. And I would tell you that was my least favorite job out of all the jobs I've had. It was stressful teaching. I taught high school. She's teaching first grade. But, you know, you know, her colleagues and the other people in the school.

[Shane Simpson]

Was it a newfound, like, career, new school, maybe. You know, a lot of changes. Right. Getting married. So there's a lot of reasons for her to be stressed.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. And I. I don't. I. I don't question her level of stress. I think she was clearly stressed out by this job. And you know what bothered me? When she would text her fiance and say how much she disliked her job and that she wanted to quit.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah. What do you say?

[Emily Simpson]

He would say things like, you're not a quitter, and that bothered me.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, that was his way of trying to motivate her. Like, you're better. Yeah, but that's not the. That's not listening to her problems.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. And I just felt like she's clearly. I mean, this isn't just like, I had a bad day. To me, it was. She was spiraling, and she was becoming increasingly depressed and increasingly upset. And, you know, I don't know if there's other things. There's speculation that maybe there were other things going on in their relationship that was adding to her stress that she just didn't want to talk about. But the only thing that she was verbalizing to anyone was how stressful her job was. And I. It just. It makes me sad because I feel like people missed the. The mark on how clearly sad she was. And this is a young girl. I mean, she. She graduated from college. She's clearly intelligent and talented.

[Shane Simpson]

She got as far as being able to get her teaching credential.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. I mean, she could find another job easily. I just. I wish the fiance was like, if you're that miserable, it's not worth it. You should. You know, we should do something, and you should find something else.

[Shane Simpson]

I feel like you're trying to teach me something.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. So are you listening to what I'm saying?

[Shane Simpson]

Are you stressed?

[Emily Simpson]

I'm always stressed. I'm always stressed.

[Shane Simpson]

All right, duly noted.

[Emily Simpson]

She was expressing a desire to quit her job, and then she also said she wanted to move back home with her parents, which is another kind of telling factor that she's supposed to get married to Sam coming up. And she's saying she's asking her parents if she can move back home. So I don't know how, how that works and what she had in her mind or what was going on, that she is engaged, she's planning a wedding, she's getting married soon.

[Shane Simpson]

But she's like she doesn't have anyone to talk to.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, her mom, you know, well, at.

[Shane Simpson]

Least her close, what should be her closest person or fiance.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. She says in a text to her parents, I want to leave this place. Get me out. Shortly thereafter, Ellen had also asked a cousin who lived in the Philadelphia area if she could temporarily move into the cousin's home and stay with her family. When asked if her fiance would also be joining her, Ellen did not respond. As Ellen's anxiety continued to escalate, she saw a psychiatrist on three different occasions who prescribed her Klonopin and Ambien. You know, Ambien's a sleep aid and Klonopin is a type of anti anxiety medication. Ellen initially reported to our loved ones that the medication seemed effective and that she felt better. Now we move on to 2011. Ellen texted her mom, Sandra, I'm starting the meds. I know you don't understand, but I can't keep living with feeling this way. She then saw her psychiatrist, Dr. Ellen Berman. And the notes from the visit say that she wants things in control. My whole life she's been a hard worker. She's anxious as she's not sleeping. Her job sucks. So again, it all goes back to those kids, her career.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh yes, and those first graders.

[Emily Simpson]

Her psychiatrist also mentions that she never revealed that there was any issues with her fiance. She always spoke height.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, it was always work related.

[Emily Simpson]

The anxiety was always work related as far as what she was expressing. Expressing, yeah. In January of 2011, Ellen saw psychiatrist Dr. Ellen Berman again. And the notes from that visit said she wants to quit, but mom and fiance don't want her to. She can get out of contract with two weeks notice when she starts to work on something and she starts thinking about everything else and she's not suicidal. So those are the notes from the psychiatrist. This is shortly before her death. Then on January 19th, Ellen saw the psychiatrist once more. This was her third visit. I know she had three visits with the psychiatrist before the incident happens. And the notes from the visit say Ellen is way better. She feels 75% better, agrees she should just get through till June, which would be the end of the school year. Right?

[Shane Simpson]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

And she tends to Walk around compulsively, neatening up. That's a.

[Shane Simpson]

What's that mean?

[Emily Simpson]

That's like a nervous reaction. Sometimes I do that if I have anxiety. It's like you can't sit still. You have to constantly be.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Doing things.

[Shane Simpson]

Have you ever noticed when you're mad at me, I clean the house?

[Emily Simpson]

No, but I noticed. Well, you haven't noticed that I noticed that I clean the house.

[Shane Simpson]

No. When you're mad at me. No. You go in the bed and look at Instagram, and then I'm doing laundry.

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, my gosh.

[Shane Simpson]

So I can relate.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay, so. January 22nd of 2011, Ellen sent out her save the dates for her upcoming wedding, which was going to happen on August 13th of 2011. Her friend also had an upcoming wedding, and they went shopping for bridesmaids dresses that day. While looking for a bridesmaid's dress, Ellen began crying and told her friend, I'm so sorry. I know I'm not myself, but I'll get it together.

[Shane Simpson]

Doesn't sound like 75%.

[Emily Simpson]

No. January 26, 2011. So this is four days after she goes shopping for bridesmaids dresses with her friend, and she's obviously not doing well. She's crying, she's saying she's gonna get herself together. This is the day of her death. So for context, there was a huge snowstorm that day. They call it a nor'. Easter. I never heard of that before. Have you heard of that before? A nor' easter snow?

[Shane Simpson]

No.

[Emily Simpson]

I saw that multiple times in articles and when they were talking about, like.

[Shane Simpson]

Where it comes from, like northeast or something like that.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't. I don't know.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

At 7am this is the day of her death. At 7am, Ellen spoke to her mother. At 12pm, Ellen received a text from a friend. Yeah, you are getting out early. This is in reference to the school closing early because of the snow. And she replied with, quote, thank goodness. At 1:15, she left her job.

[Shane Simpson]

So thank goodness in reference to having a short work.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, having a short day. Right. At 1:26, Ellen stopped for gas and topped off her tank. You know, and I've heard some people say, like, if you knew you were going to commit suicide, why would you fill your gas tank up or something like that?

[Shane Simpson]

Well, I don't know that she knew she would.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

And assuming it was a suicide, she contemplates it probably regularly throughout the day, some days more than others.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

But she's not thinking, like, I'm gonna kill myself on Tuesday evening. You know, if there's a snowstorm when we get out early. But first I gotta go grocery shopping. I mean, they don't think like that. I don't imagine.

[Emily Simpson]

So then at 2:30, she's in her apartment and she remotely enters the grades for her first grade students. Then at 3:47pm Ellen sends her final text at 4:45pm And I think this is, I think we should hold onto this time period. 4:45pm Ellen uses her laptop. I don't know. Does Ellen use her laptop? Someone uses her laptop.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay, her laptop is used.

[Emily Simpson]

Her laptop is used at 4:45pm in her.

[Shane Simpson]

Like, like, in what fashion is it used?

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know. I think they just. I think they just know. I don't know how it was used, but forensically, for whatever reason, you. Can someone use the laptop? At 4:45pm, Sam Goldberg, Ellen's fiance, leaves the couple's home. And surveillance at their apartment building captures Sam entering the on site gym. Now we know in the apartment that they live in that there are, there is security in the lobby. Okay, so you can see him get off the elevator at that.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, you mean cameras, cameras, not security.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, well, security cameras. Okay, you can see him get off the elevator and go to the gym. So you know that he left the apartment around 4:45 and he does go to the gym. Then at 5:30pm the cameras catch him exiting the gym on the first floor of the apartment complex. And then he returns to the apartment. When he returns to the apartment at 5:30, he realizes he can't enter because the latch was locked from the inside. So despite using his key and banging on the door, Ellen would not respond or unlock it. And you know what I'm talking about with one of those latches. It's that swing latch.

[Shane Simpson]

Like the old ones were like a chain, right? This is like a latch that only from the inside could be locked. And usually you can open a little bit, if at all.

[Emily Simpson]

So from 5:30 to 5:42pm Sam repeatedly calls Ellen and sends her text. Also, they interviewed another couple that lives on that same floor. And the only sound or disturbance they heard was Sam trying to bust through the door trying to get into the apartment. Okay, so here's some texts that he sent. Hello? Open the door. What are you doing? I'm getting pissed. Hello? You better have an excuse. What the. Ah, you have no idea. So those are the texts that he's sending.

[Shane Simpson]

I have a. I have an issue with this. Okay, maybe it's premature to break this down, but if you're not answering the door. I've learned in life, if someone's, like, not answering the door or they're running late, the first thing you do is see if they're okay. So if I'm banging on the door and you're not answering, I'm gonna get frustrated, but I'm also gonna think, are you lying in a pool of blood or something? Like, this guy is getting pissed at her. Like. Like she's refusing to open the door for him. Is that normal behavior for them?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, I don't know. And that's a good question, and that's something that probably should be analyzed is he's not saying, are you okay?

[Shane Simpson]

Right. Or why aren't you opening the door?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. He's not calling her mom and saying, have you talked to Ellen? Is she okay? He's pissed.

[Shane Simpson]

Right. He could also just assume she's asleep. I mean, that would be.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, I guess also, maybe he's thinking, why did she do the swing last?

[Shane Simpson]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

He knows it's. He knows she's inside or someone's inside because it's locked up from the inside only, but he's mad at her. Like. Like she's refusing.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, then that's a good. That's an interesting observation or question because did they get in a fight before he left the apartment? I don't know. Because is he thinking that she did the lock?

[Shane Simpson]

Right. Right. If. If they had an ongoing issue, then it would make sense, like, you're ignoring me. Open the door. Like, this isn't what we do. But that's. I don't know.

[Emily Simpson]

So then after sending these texts, Sam then went downstairs again to the lobby, and he asked Phil Hanton, the doorman, to help him break the lock. Phil told him that he wasn't allowed to leave his post. So at this time, Sam, see, now.

[Shane Simpson]

This is even another problem. Did he go to the doorman and say, something might be wrong, she's not open the door. Or. Or he's. I mean, so far you're acting like he's saying, she's mad at me, won't open the door. Can you help me break the lock?

[Emily Simpson]

Right. So you're saying if he was truly concerned about her safety and health, he could have said, you need to call 91 1.

[Shane Simpson]

Because she said, that would have been if he had. Yeah. If he had concerns for her, that would be, I think, a typical response of like, she's not opening what's going on? Instead, it's more like, at least from what you just read, he's Saying she's. She won't open the door for me. Can you break the lock?

[Emily Simpson]

Yes, he does. He does ask.

[Shane Simpson]

That's the odd.

[Emily Simpson]

The doorman.

[Shane Simpson]

I'm not saying he's guilty. I'm just talking about that behavior isn't. Wouldn't be typical.

[Emily Simpson]

So the doorman, Phil, who they also interview on the Hulu series, tells him that he's not allowed to leave his post. I guess they had changed for this apartment complex. They had changed up some things and the security or.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah, he's like, if I leave here, then I compromise the front door. Which is what he. His assignment is.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. So at 5:44, neighbors heard Sam call Ellen's name out several times. At 6pm, Sam goes downstairs again to request help from Phil, but Phil tells him that it's against policy. He offers to call Ellen instead. Ellen cell gets two calls from Venice Lofts, but no one answers. Ellen cell gets another call from Venice Lofts, but no one answers. So Phil offers to call the police. This is at 6:07 and 6:10. So now the security or the. The doorman, whatever you want to call him, is now calling and she's not answering. Then at 6:23pm Sam is seen on the surveillance camera entering the elevator. And at 6:30pm he proceeds to break down the door to their apartment. Inside, he finds Ellen slumped on the floor in the kitchen, leaning against the cabinets with blood everywhere. And he calls 91 1. All right, so here's. Here's where it gets all muddled to me. Clearly, maybe, possibly should say clearly or maybe. I don't know. This is where I'm saying it's muddled. It's all I. It's hard. The two scenarios are she either committed suicide or Sam killed her. There is no other option.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah, your. Your analytical skills are on fire today.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. However, he claims that when he left the apartment to go to the gym that she was alive.

[Shane Simpson]

And how long was he gone?

[Emily Simpson]

He was gone 30 minutes, 40 minutes. So she either committed suicide within that small time frame, latched the door, committed suicide.

[Shane Simpson]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

Or it's also possible that if it was a murder, that he killed her before he went to the gym.

[Shane Simpson]

It's possible.

[Emily Simpson]

So that's a possibility.

[Shane Simpson]

But then what about the door latch?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, that's another conundrum. But I guess it is possible that he could have had the forethought to manipulate because there are videos. You can watch videos of how to manipulate that swing latch. You can pull it. There's like, there's ways to pull there's also.

[Shane Simpson]

We don't have an answer to this, but he. From the inside, he could have latched it and then pull. Forced it open. That's a little bit of a stretch, now that I think about it, because it's probably.

[Emily Simpson]

Wait, you're saying.

[Shane Simpson]

So it could have busted it open from the inside.

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, you're saying it was never actually.

[Shane Simpson]

To make it look like it was. No, it was latched. Like, for instance. It's a little bit of a stretch, but he goes inside, he kills her or whatever. He latches the door from the inside, and he's on the inside, and now he pulls the door open and busts it open with the latch. So it looked like from the outside. He kicked it in, but it's from the inside.

[Emily Simpson]

He pulled it open, but he goes to the gym. So when does he go to the gym? And then when he shuts the door, what does he do?

[Shane Simpson]

I don't know. You're right. This. This is a mess.

[Emily Simpson]

I know it is.

[Shane Simpson]

I. I said it was a stretch.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. Okay, so he calls 911 upon entering the apartment and finding her in the kitchen.

[Shane Simpson]

Well, wait, then if it's latched the only way it could have been then for. Because you just shot down my theory.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay.

[Shane Simpson]

The only way it could have been was, like you said, he manipulated it to latch it on his way out after he had killed her. Had he killed her at all?

[Emily Simpson]

Or there's the possibility that it was never latched and somehow this guy was just so diabolical and smart, he knew.

[Shane Simpson]

He just busted the latch somehow.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, because I. I took up. I have a photo. I'll show you a picture. Yeah, on the screen when I was watching it, because they have a photo of the latch, and I wanted to see if it was actually.

[Shane Simpson]

Let's see it and let's discuss it. So you thought you had a. You thought you solved the crime?

[Emily Simpson]

I was like, I'm going to solve this right now.

[Shane Simpson]

Screenshot it and zoom in.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes, I'm zooming in. So look, this is what the door looks like.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah, it's a latch, like a hotel, like you see in a hotel. So this swings.

[Emily Simpson]

What? This is what, the door.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, that's it broken. Oh, that's the real one.

[Emily Simpson]

Let me see it. Yeah, that's the real one. This isn't like a. This is the crime scene photo.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, yeah. I. I don't know if we're going to kick that open. I think it would be a lot more busting that. Remember when I Keller Got locked in a bathroom door and I busted it open. Yeah, you did how much wood damage?

[Emily Simpson]

That was so hot when you did that.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah, I can break a door tonight if you want. I'll lock you in the bathroom and break you out.

[Emily Simpson]

That was actually at Elizabeth Vargas's house. I never bring up housewives on this podcast, but this is probably the first time I've ever done that. But that was Elizabeth Vargas's house.

[Shane Simpson]

That big was stuck in the bathroom.

[Emily Simpson]

She did some remodeling on that house. And they did a crappy job on a bathroom. And Keller went to the bathroom and he got locked in it.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah, he was in there for a long time.

[Emily Simpson]

For an hour. No joke. We slid the iPad, his iPad, underneath the bathroom door to entertain him so that he could watch videos until we could get him out.

[Shane Simpson]

And we.

[Emily Simpson]

And so Elizabeth sends over the handyman to get my child out of the bathroom. The handyman cannot get this child out. He can't get the lock to work. Shane gets so frustrated, he just goes all Hulk on it and he just takes the whole door down.

[Shane Simpson]

I think it was two kicks.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know, but it was hot.

[Shane Simpson]

It was a lot more wood broken than that little thing.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes, it was.

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[Emily Simpson]

All right, the operator instructs Sam to remove Ellen's sweater and to administer cpr. When he lifts her slouched head, he discovers the knife lodged in her chest. And the operator instructs him to stop administering CPR and says, the paramedics are on the way. I We have to go into this a little bit deeper, though. When he's I actually, they show the the 911 call, or you can listen to it. The 911 operator says to him multiple times because he says, she's bleeding and she's on the floor. The operator says, look at her chest.

[Shane Simpson]

To see if it's moving.

[Emily Simpson]

Like, look at her chest, look at her chest. She says it a few times. Then she says, okay, you need to do cpr. And then he says something to the effect of do I have to? Or something like that. No, he does. This is. I mean, he says, like, I guess I have to. Like, he's not. He's not like, yes, I have to give CPR to her.

[Shane Simpson]

No, it is a little bit of a laughable response.

[Emily Simpson]

It is. He says something to the effect of like, I guess I really have to or something. Then, okay, remember this woman is slumped down. She slumped like she slid down the cabinets.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay?

[Emily Simpson]

She's sitting. Her legs are sprawled out in front of her. She has a knife in her heart. He walks into the apartment, he calls 91 1, and he never makes reference to there being a knife in her heart until, like halfway through the call when she tells him that he needs to do cpr. And he's like, okay, all right. And she's like, you got to open her shirt. You got to get her sweater off.

[Shane Simpson]

And he's like, okay, like, I forgot one small detail. Yeah, there's a knife in her heart.

[Emily Simpson]

And then all of a sudden he's like, oh wait, she stabbed herself. So the way the 911 call sounds is like he never noticed the knife sticking out of her chest. And then he notices it on the 911 call and then he says she stabbed herself. No, she fell on her knife.

[Shane Simpson]

What?

[Emily Simpson]

I know. So the 911 call is strange.

[Shane Simpson]

Everything's strange so far.

[Emily Simpson]

And again, we've talked about how in certain circumstances that we've never been in, like when we even talk about the Bryan Coburger cases and the fact that the girls didn't call until.

[Shane Simpson]

Right. We don't know what normal, what reactions there are.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. We're trying not to be judgmental because we've never been in that situation. I've never walked into an apartment and, and someone needed 91 1.

[Shane Simpson]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

However, his responses do sound strange. He sounds like he doesn't want to give her cpr. He, he doesn't seem to notice the knife.

[Shane Simpson]

Sounds like he doesn't want to bring her back to life.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. Sticking out of her chest. Until later. And I don't know how you don't notice that. That. I mean, to me, when you open the door and you walk in the apartment, that would be the first thing that you notice is that she has a knife plunged into her chest.

[Shane Simpson]

Right. Did he move her at all like before he. Because my thought would be if you walk in, you see someone like that, you would be quick to call 91 1, but you'd probably also be quick to go attend them in some way, even if it's just checking on them or moving them in a more comfortable position or pulling the knife out or something. Like you would do something.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. So they find Ellen. So then at 6:36pm Emergency responders arrive on scene. That's because once he says that there's a knife in her, obviously the operator says, then don't do cpr, like don't touch her. They find Ellen in a semi upright position between two corner cabinets with a serrated knife plunged four inches into her chest. A strainer filled with blueberries and an orange appearing freshly sliced, rested on the counter. Two clean knives are in the sink and the knife block looked as if it fell over. Ellen suffered 20 stab wounds in total. However, a caveat, just about the stab wounds. They don't know that there's 20 stab wounds until after she's taken away from the scene. And the medical examiner, they just see.

[Shane Simpson]

The one knife in her chest and.

[Emily Simpson]

She, she has A wound in the top of her head that's like 2 inches. So at 6:42pm Ellen's pronounced dead at the scene. When police question Sam, he tells them about Ellen's medication and her poor mental health. The police rule her death is suicide. Now they say that they ruled it a suicide pretty quickly one because said that the door was latched from the inside. Now I don't know how much they investigated the door actually being latched or.

[Shane Simpson]

They just take his word suicide or.

[Emily Simpson]

If they just take his word for it and they see.

[Shane Simpson]

Cuz when I was looking at your picture, it looks like the latch, you could, I mean you could, you could literally yank it also just with your hand like you know, cuz it protrudes out and you could just pull it with your hand like a lever and then try to. And it only had like the screws busted out. It wasn't that impressive.

[Emily Simpson]

So they take his word for that. It was locked from the inside. So they take. So the police are saying, okay, well the door was locked from the inside. They look and then the balcony, there's fresh snow, there's no footprints. So they're like, well it couldn't have been anyone else. There's no surveillance video of anyone else going in or out to go up to that floor. The neighbors don't hear any disturbance other than him yelling.

[Shane Simpson]

The doorman never left his post.

[Emily Simpson]

Right? The doorman didn't leave his post. So. And then he says, Sam says that there's mental health issues and that she was kind of spiraling and that she was taking these new medications and so they rule a suicide pretty much on scene and then the body's taken away. So January 27, 2011 at least left it open.

[Shane Simpson]

Like do they have to determine right then and there? They certainly should have left it open. It's questionable.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know. They just said they found him cooperative and I guess he, I, I don't know, he cooperated and, and the door latch was busted and, and she had some mental health issues and there was no su. There was no suicide note. And as far as I remember, I think at that time there was nothing there. She also had a laptop and I believe that they didn't find any kind of evidence or search or anything on.

[Shane Simpson]

Her laptop to indicate suicide.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, but they still ruled it a suicide at that time. Not even undetermined, just suicide. That was the police investigation.

[Shane Simpson]

Search his phone.

[Emily Simpson]

You know, that was another thing I was thinking about and I, I don't know, I did end up Reading later, because I thought, well, who else did he call? Did they do a forensic analysis on his phone at all? Did they see. Not only was he calling her or texting her, but was he calling anyone else? Was he, you know. Yeah, and, you know, I don't know about that. I did read that there were some inconsistencies later with him saying he had called certain people or whatever, and then it didn't.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, the little inconsistencies don't never really bother me. It's like, okay, so someone said they called person A and then person B, and then they said it was B and then A. I mean, there's a lot going on. No one really. No one's keeping track of what's going on.

[Emily Simpson]

So on January 27, 2011, Ellen's body was removed from the Venice loft apartments and transported to a morgue for an autopsy. Before Ellen's autopsy was completed and the results of the professional examination were known. Sam Goldberg's lawyer, who is his uncle, who is also a lawyer, James Schwarzman. This is very interesting to me, and this is what pushes me over into the murder side. So let's talk about this. Sam Goldberg has a uncle who is a lawyer. His name is James Schwarzman. He called the apartment building's property manager, requesting access to Ellen and Sam's apartment. So here's a doctor, Marlon Osborne is performing an autopsy on Ellen. In his examination, he notes multiple stab wounds to the chest, abdomen, and the back of the neck. He creates a draft autopsy report and finds homicide. So here's where the conflict begins. You've got the police who find her body that night and rule it a suicide immediately based upon certain factors. The door latch, Sam being cooperative, and no one else could have possibly.

[Shane Simpson]

Nothing really exciting.

[Emily Simpson]

But then the medical examiner does the autopsy, and then he rules it a homicide. So now you've got two conflicting reports, Right. And then you've got. I'll.

[Shane Simpson]

I'd side with the homicide at this.

[Emily Simpson]

Point, but then you've got the uncle of Sam, who is a lawyer, who is now calling the apartment complex and wants access into the apartment. So the property manager of Venice loft apartments, her name is Melissa Ware, she contacts the police after the uncle calls and asks for access to the apartment because he says he wants to get a suit for his nephew. The police department tells Melissa it was not an active crime scene anymore. And then they gave her the number of a crime scene cleanup crew to use for the apartment.

[Shane Simpson]

How soon is this? After the.

[Emily Simpson]

This is like the next day. Wow.

[Shane Simpson]

I would. I Would not be. I don't know if I'd be so quick to clean. I don't know. I don't know.

[Emily Simpson]

But again, this. There's.

[Shane Simpson]

If I believe it was a suit, if. If it was me and you were dead. Okay?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane Simpson]

And it was clear. So I know it's a suicide because I'm. I'm the only person, right. I know it's a suicide. Yeah. I'd call a cleanup crew. Probably quickly, too.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane Simpson]

But also, if I murdered you, I'd call a cleanup pretty quickly, too. Exactly. I don't know. Again, I don't have any answers.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, it's his uncle that is asking for access to the apartment immediately.

[Shane Simpson]

Right, right, right.

[Emily Simpson]

And he does it to get a suit. He says it's under the pretense of wanting to get a suit, probably for the funeral.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

Police say. So when she asked the police, which was the right thing to do. Right. She doesn't grant this guy access. She says, let me call the police first.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah. She's preserving the crime scene.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. So she does the right thing. She's calls the police, and she's like, I don't know. You know, can I let him in? And they're like, sure, it's already been ruled suicide. And. Oh, and by the way, you can let him in. And also, here's the number of a crime scene cleanup crew so that they can go in and just. Really. Just wipe the place down perfectly.

[Shane Simpson]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

So the next day, the uncle comes to the apartment, but he doesn't just take a. A suit. He takes her devices. He takes her laptop and her phone and her purse. See, that's where I'm like, he.

[Shane Simpson]

He knew what he was doing. Whether he knew that there was a conflict with homicide versus suicide, and whether he knew what happened or not, he took it probably just. Just to smother it.

[Emily Simpson]

So what kind of attorney was he?

[Shane Simpson]

Was he a criminal?

[Emily Simpson]

You know, I don't know. I didn't. I didn't know. I don't know that.

[Shane Simpson]

Elderly law. Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

So the apartment manager calls James Schwarzman, and again, remember, James Schwarzman is. Is the uncle, the attorney uncle. And told him that he could have access to the premises and relayed the recommendation of a crime scene cleanup service. So she says, okay, the police said, you can go get a suit. Also, they said that I should hire a crime scene cleanup.

[Shane Simpson]

I bet Schwartzmann. I bet Sam told his uncle to take the devices. Oh, while you're there, can you grab some of this incriminating device?

[Emily Simpson]

Or the uncle is Looking out for his.

[Shane Simpson]

Right. That was my first thought. Now I'm thinking, well, maybe Sam's like, can you grab her devices?

[Emily Simpson]

So then Schwarzman agrees for the family to pay the cost of the crime scene cleanup, and she arranged for the services to be completed before he and his son even arrive. He and his son would be his cousin. His cousin arrive at the complex. So this all happens quickly, very quickly. I mean, you've got. The next day, you've got. This guy wants access to the apartment. He wants to get a suit. He says, a suit. He takes the computer to her purse and her phone, and he also pays for a crime scene cleanup to come in and wipe everything down. James Schwarzman showed up and removed not only a suit from the apartment, but also Ellen's purse, cell phone, and laptop. So that's where I can go. I can maybe hang my hat on the suicide. I can think. You know, stabbing yourself seems like a really, really.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, very difficult.

[Emily Simpson]

Difficult, Difficult and long.

[Shane Simpson]

And she didn't have such a history of mental struggles to be able to, like, justify, like. Oh, yeah, she was really out there, you know, like drug use, this and that. So she's numb to things, and then she kind of is violent towards herself or cutting or anything like that.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. You're saying there's no precursor.

[Shane Simpson]

No, this is. I'm a first grade teacher. And then her choice of suicide is stabbing herself.

[Emily Simpson]

I know.

[Shane Simpson]

20 times. And then cutting her head and stabbing her neck and all that stuff.

[Emily Simpson]

I know. But you know what? The majority of the stab wounds are very superficial.

[Shane Simpson]

Not deep.

[Emily Simpson]

Not deep. And what I learned was a lot of people, if they. Not a lot of people choose stabbing for suicide. Let's be clear on that. But if they do, there are some cases of it. There are a lot of times superficial. Where there's superficial because they're called hesitation.

[Shane Simpson]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

Because it's.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

You're working yourself up to it.

[Shane Simpson]

It's hard to actually fully stab yourself. I imagine so.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. So it's like you're. You're trying, and you're kind of seeing.

[Shane Simpson]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

And then. So I think it's out there. I think it's difficult to grasp that, but I don't think it's impossible.

[Shane Simpson]

No, it's. It's been done before. And also Artie Lang did that already laying.

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Shane Simpson]

He stabbed him. I think on two different occasions. He stabbed himself.

[Emily Simpson]

Wow.

[Shane Simpson]

Didn't succeed. But. But he also had high. And that's what I'm getting at. He had a lot of cocaine use. Drug use, very extreme. A lot of adrenaline to be able to do such a thing. She's a first grade teacher. I know that comes with stress, but I mean, not, not to this level.

[Emily Simpson]

You know, all I can think is that she was really, really spiraling and she was on medication and you've got. And she probably. They said she went from like this, happy, go lucky, like, never had any anxiety to all of a sudden she's closed off, she's not sharing things with friends, and she has all this anxiety about her job. And maybe it was more than her job. Maybe there was a lot more things going on that she was just not verbalizing, so. January 28, 2011. The autopsy findings are that Dr. Osborne classified the death as a homicide, which obviously contradicts with what the police department ruled it, which was a suicide. His findings from the autopsy on January 27 provide critical details about the cause of death and the nature of the injuries. His stain. There were multiple stab wounds. Ellen had numerous stab wounds to the chest, abdomen, and back of the neck. The stab wounds affected vital areas, including the aortic arch, left lung, and cervical spine. This indicates severe trauma to essential organs and structures. The presence. This is also important. They also found in the autopsy that there was the presence of multiple bruises at different stages of healing, which would suggest a pattern of physical altercations or abuse occurring over time.

[Shane Simpson]

And where were the bruises?

[Emily Simpson]

All over. I think she had 11 different bruises on arms, legs.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, wow.

[Emily Simpson]

So then again, you can take from it what, what you want, but maybe a lot of the stress didn't have so much to do with workplace. Workplace. But maybe there was abuse at home.

[Shane Simpson]

You know, what, the boyfriend, if he was. This is a case where you think, oh, wow, well, maybe it was murder. But then had he been arresting, convicted, we probably do be doing a podcast on. There's not enough evidence.

[Emily Simpson]

I. I know, and I thought about that. I thought if they ruled it a homicide and they arrested him and he went to trial, I'd be sitting right here saying the same thing, that he probably did it. But I don't know if I would convict him if I were on that jury, because there's reasonable doubt.

[Shane Simpson]

But had they done a proper investigation or. I shouldn't say proper, more thorough with her devices. I don't know what else there was eyewitness testimony or ear witness, you know, what people can hear nearby, all that. Maybe there'd be more evidence one way or another.

[Emily Simpson]

And maybe there should have been. I mean, I don't know that they ever gave Him. A lie detector test. And I mean that. I know you can say whatever you want about lie detector tests, but every police force uses them. The CIA and the FBI.

[Shane Simpson]

No. And for indictments and all kinds of things.

[Emily Simpson]

Things. I'm saying, if he had been given a lie detector test about his story and the latch and all that, he passed, then that's something. That's something. But if there was deceit noted, that's something else. Another route to go. And they. They didn't do that.

[Shane Simpson]

Although I just watched a video and was reading up on a man who was convicted of killing his wife. Even though he hadn't. He was released 25 years later. He passed two lie detector tests during the investigation. Didn't matter. They still arrested him and convicted him.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, wrongfully. That does help. It does happen. Then the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania issued a search warrant, and the items they searched and seized are listed below. It was assorted knives, the blood samples, a serrated knife with the black handle, a bloody hand towel found in the kitchen, other potential evidence items related to the crime scene, assorted clothing, a diamond ring. She didn't wear her ring, fingerprints and a Rubbermaid container. And also when they found. This is. I. I don't know what to make of this, but when they found her body, when she was slumped down and they found her and she was deceased, she had a white towel in one of her hands that was. That didn't have any blood on it. It was pretty pristine. So I don't know what to make of that other than maybe, like, if. If she did commit suicide, then maybe on the, like, she's losing her life and she slumps down. Maybe she grabs it off the counter, she's holding on to it. I don't know.

[Shane Simpson]

No idea if this was a murder. If Sam was like, holy crap, that was easier than I thought. Like 24 hours, she was. It was suicide. They don't investigate. And I get to clean the apartment. And they even told me who to call.

[Emily Simpson]

You know, here's. Here's where when I think and I try to. I try to visualize what happened. I try to visualize it as a murder. First of all, if he did murder her, it wasn't a planned murder.

[Shane Simpson]

No.

[Emily Simpson]

I mean, he would have just broken up with her.

[Shane Simpson]

No, that's not true. Well, you're saying all people would break up instead of murdering their spouse?

[Emily Simpson]

No, I'm saying it wasn't planned. It's not premeditated. I mean, this guy isn't like someone that's going to.

[Shane Simpson]

I would have guessed that it had. It just built up maybe in a short period of time, and then it was an explosion and then bam.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. I'm saying he didn't planet if he did murder her, it's because something happened in that apartment. Words were exchanged.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah. It ramped up real quick.

[Emily Simpson]

There was some heat of the moment.

[Shane Simpson]

I said, know what you said about breaking up?

[Emily Simpson]

I'm saying he th. This guy is engaged to her. He's not going to plan to murder her. I'm saying if he doesn't want to be with her anymore, he would just break up with her. He's not going to murder her to get out of the relationship.

[Shane Simpson]

Lots of people don't do that.

[Emily Simpson]

No, they're not. No. But they do that because they're married and they don't want to pay child support and they don't want to lose custody of their kids. These guys, they don't have any connection.

[Shane Simpson]

Most of all, he doesn't have a history of any crime.

[Emily Simpson]

Right, right.

[Shane Simpson]

To. To indicate that he would be like that or violence.

[Emily Simpson]

If we're going to make it that he murdered her, it has to be a heat of the moment. It had something happened, I would agree with that. She came home from work, she's spiraling, maybe she's acting crazy. He's telling her to calm down, Something happens, and he grabs a knife and attacks her.

[Shane Simpson]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

My question is, though, when someone murders someone with a knife, in the heat of the moment, they don't leave superficial wounds. Right. I mean, I would think that they're. They're not just. They're not just, you know, testing and like, doing little, you know, like millimeter little wounds to the back of her neck. I mean, if he is in the heat of the moment and he blitz attacks her, then he's. He's going to.

[Shane Simpson]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

Plunge a knife into her. Not mess around enough to stab her.

[Shane Simpson]

It's going to go all the way through.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. I'm just saying he's not going to be like, oh, here, let me just do like some little tiny baby stabs. Baby stabs. And then, oh, now I'm gonna stab you for real. Like, I don't. I don't picture that happening.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah. I. I don't know. Everything you say is true and understandable, and it just leaves more questions.

[Emily Simpson]

I know. All right.

[Shane Simpson]

I need answers, not questions.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay, let's go back to. Because this is also interesting and, and also it goes back to the computer searches like we talked about before. They initially said that there wasn't Any kind, anything that they found on the computer with a. I. I assume just with this police investigation, it was a basic cursory review of her devices, right?

[Shane Simpson]

Probably.

[Emily Simpson]

Then the uncle comes in the apartment under the pretense of getting a suit, but he takes her laptop and her phone.

[Shane Simpson]

Did he take a suit?

[Emily Simpson]

I don't even know if he took a suit. I don't know. So then in 2019, the case gets reopened and the Pennsylvania Attorney General's office claimed that there were web searches found on her computer for, quote, methods of committing suicide, quick death and depression that they had found on Ellen's computer.

[Shane Simpson]

Now, again, does he have access to her computer?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, the uncle took the computer.

[Shane Simpson]

I know, but I meant. I meant prior to the death, because he could. You know, I'm just thinking like a criminal. I can go in there and search.

[Emily Simpson]

So you're saying suicide. Wait, you're saying who? The fiance.

[Shane Simpson]

Like if Sam used her computer to make those searches. I'm just trying to make sense of this. Bring cases that are cut and dry. That's what we need to talk about.

[Emily Simpson]

Some sources indicate the searches occurred in December 18, 2010, for suffocation and suicide methods, and on January 10, 2011, for quick death. She also reportedly browsed the website about painless suicide.

[Shane Simpson]

Well, if you go off of that, then why wouldn't it be a suicide?

[Emily Simpson]

Because they're saying it's controversial. They're saying that there's a dispute. There is a fundamental dispute over the computer evidence. The use of this evidence to support the suicide ruling is controversial. This is a computer evidence. Due to the chain of custody issues and conflicting reports. You've got one side saying, hey, she said she was searching for suicide before. And you know what it means, chain of custody. The chain of custody is broken when the uncle comes and takes it.

[Shane Simpson]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

That's when the chain.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah, but why can they know when the searches were made?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, that's the problem, is that apparently you can manipulate the searches as well.

[Shane Simpson]

Well, then. Then go back to what I just said. He probably. He could have planted those searches for suicide. Okay, I, you know, I suggest everyone, everyone that's having a breakdown of the relationship probably look in their search history. Like, if I look at my search history right now, and it's like suicide and all this stuff, I'm gonna know what you're up to.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes, but again, that would be premeditated. And I see.

[Washington Post Advertiser]

I would have.

[Emily Simpson]

I could. Right. I'm just saying 20 year olds that are engaged, they're not. It's not premeditated.

[Shane Simpson]

I don't know. It's very confusing. I'm more frustrated ending this podcast than I was starting it.

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[Emily Simpson]

So March of 2011 they changed the manner of death again. The police department demanded a face to face meeting about Ellen's case with Dr. Osborne. Remember he was the original medical examiner that ruled it a homicide and his colleagues which was also attended by a high ranking representative from the Philadelphia District Attorney's office Following the meeting with investigators, Dr. Osborne made an unprecedented decision to change his original ruling. He reversed his earlier classification of the death as a homicide and. And concluded that Ellen's death was actually a suicide. Dr. Osborne has stated that no notes were taken and there is no recording of this important meeting. So what happened is the police rule of the suicide. The medical examiner does the autopsy and rules at a homicide. Now you've got conflicting reports and you've got these parents that are pissed off. Right. So now the police department or the city has a problem. So then there's a meeting. And then after the meeting, the medical examiner says, oh, okay. Any rules of the suicide?

[Shane Simpson]

There's not much conviction over there, and.

[Emily Simpson]

There'S no notes taken and no records of what happened in this meeting. And when they deposed everyone and asked them about what happened in the meeting, every single person said, I don't recall, or something like that. So In March of 2011, Ellen's death certificate was quietly updated from homicide to suicide. Ellen's parents, Josh and Sandra Greenberg, were astounded by the sudden change. It made no sense to them that Elle would have inflicted 20 stab wounds to herself.

[Shane Simpson]

And some of the wounds were on the back. Right back.

[Emily Simpson]

Neck. It's on the back of the neck, but it's up high. So, again, reachable. It's reachable. So that's.

[Shane Simpson]

But why would you do that to the back of your neck?

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know. But you know what? It's reachable. But it's also. There were also very. There were a few that are, again, like those hesitation type of.

[Shane Simpson]

And do we know there's no defensive wounds of any kind?

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, that is a good question. No defensive wounds. And that was another good question. That was another reason that initially the police ruled it a suicide. Because, again, you would think that if it was a blitz attack where they were just having some heated moment and he grabs the knife and he goes for her, that she would put her hands up, that she would fight back, that she would put her arms up. And there were no defensive words on him. Right.

[Shane Simpson]

He didn't have anything on him.

[Emily Simpson]

No. Also, there was only her DNA found on the knife that they removed from her chest.

[Shane Simpson]

Now, again, that doesn't mean he didn't do it. It just means he didn't have DNA on it.

[Emily Simpson]

There's just. There's. His DNA wasn't found on it. I don't know, he could have wiped the knife or he could have just not left DNA.

[Shane Simpson]

But again, all right, all this said. What do you Think it. What do you think it is?

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know. I mean, I don't know. That's the question. So was it a suicide or a homicide? Let's just go through some things that points to suicide. It's shallow hesitation stabs. No defensive wounds on her hands.

[Shane Simpson]

The door was latched.

[Emily Simpson]

No. There's new snow on the balcony. No footprints. So that means that there's no other perpetrator. No one else was in the apartment. She's had mental health issues. She was taking new medications. She went to three visits with a psychiatrist. And it was well known that her demeanor had changed and that her outlook on life had changed and that she was pretty depressed. She was spiraling at school that day. Her colleague said that she was acting abnormal, that she was spiraling, she was having a hard time, happy that it.

[Shane Simpson]

Was an early out. Right.

[Emily Simpson]

She was happy she was leaving school early. The door was locked from the inside. This is based on Sam's statement and also I guess the visual that they saw that the lock was broken. But again, I don't know. Could that be manipulated?

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Emily Simpson]

The apartment was undisturbed. There's no signs of a struggle. So again, you would think that if he attacked her that there would be things knocked over, something broken.

[Shane Simpson]

No defensive wounds. There's no defensive marks on him.

[Emily Simpson]

They found a Google search on her computer for quick suicide and painless suicide, but again, that's debatable because we don't know exactly when that was because the chain of custody was broken when the uncle took the laptop. The knife showed only Ellen's DNA. Sam stayed on scene and was cooperative. And Ellen's last digital footprint was activity on her computer at 4:45, which was the same time that Sam left for the gym. And the neighbors did not hear any type. Type of fight or disturbance.

[Shane Simpson]

So that's a lot.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. That's pointing to a suicide.

[Shane Simpson]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

Evidence that points to a homicide. There is a lack of hemorrhaging on the spinal column injuries. This is interesting and this is complex because I'm not a medical. I don't know anything about any medical type of terms or anything, but there is. There was a wound that was hit the spinal cord sheath in the back of her neck.

[Shane Simpson]

Which means what?

[Emily Simpson]

Which means that one of the medical examiners was of the opinion that because there was no hemorrhaging around that cut into the spinal cord, that that cut occurred after death. That's another. That's another.

[Shane Simpson]

That's another thing to confuse us.

[Emily Simpson]

That's another confusing thing to look at that points towards a homicide. So Lindsay Emery, a pathologist who. Who's also certified in neuropathology, conducted one of Ellen's examinations and testified saying that a lack of hemorrhage means no pulse. So that means that there's the possibility that that could have been struck after death, which obviously means it wasn't suicide because she can't stab herself if she's already deceased.

[Shane Simpson]

No. You know, it reminds me of that Utah case where it was a. It wasn't a murder suicide. It was a suicide murder.

[Emily Simpson]

What is that?

[Shane Simpson]

This lady went to shoot herself. They were in a car and she pointed the gun in her head. I don't mean to laugh at her death, obviously, but she points again at her head, shoots herself, the bullet goes through her head and then hit the passenger husband and killed him.

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, but she didn't mean to kill him.

[Shane Simpson]

No.

[Emily Simpson]

She didn't want to kill him.

[Shane Simpson]

No.

[Emily Simpson]

And she died. And he died.

[Shane Simpson]

She died first.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane Simpson]

So suicide, she killed him.

[Emily Simpson]

So suicide murder as opposed to murder suicide. Okay, I see what you're saying.

[Shane Simpson]

So strange things can happen. Strange things, but it can happen, but it's very rare. In that case, there was evidence to prove the order of, you know, killing.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

In this case, it's just really confusing. And I'm probably more frustrated now that you brought up this case than I was yesterday not knowing about this case.

[Emily Simpson]

All right, So I made a bullet points of just what led me to believe suicide. Now we're talking about homicide. Homicide. So there's the pathologist who said that it could. The spinal cord hemorrhaging.

[Shane Simpson]

The lack of hemorrhaging.

[Emily Simpson]

The lack of hemorrhaging. 20 knife wounds. Also there is string. There was possibly strangulation marks on her neck. Ellen Greenberg's 2011 autopsy noted bruising to her neck which some forensic experts have interpreted as evidence of strangulation. This has been a key factor in the long running controversy over whether her death was a homicide or suicide. I don't know though. I feel as if it was an actual strangulation. First, that there would be noticeable marks. Also evidence appoints to homicide or the bruises in varying stages of healing, which would suggest that he was violent, it was an abusive relationship or abusive with her previously. No one was with Sam when he broke the door down. Okay, this is interesting. And this was a controversy that came up originally when the medical examiner first concluded or the police concluded that it was a suicide. It's because they were under the assumption that when Sam came back to the apartment and busted the door down and broke the latch from the inside, that the security guard was with him. I don't know where that story came from, but they were under that assumption, and the medical examiner was under that assumption. So when he ruled it a suicide.

[Shane Simpson]

They considered there being witnesses.

[Emily Simpson]

He considered the latch that there was properly. Right.

[Shane Simpson]

Weird.

[Emily Simpson]

So then he. The medical examiner then learns later that that wasn't true, that the security guard, or the. Or the doorman, whatever you want to call him, never actually left his post. So when Sam broke the door down, he was alone. There was no witness as to.

[Shane Simpson]

That's odd, that a. Maybe it's not odd, but a medical examiner taking in, like, evidence like that, like eyewitness testimony and stuff.

[Emily Simpson]

I know.

[Shane Simpson]

Well, I thought your medical examiner look at them medically.

[Emily Simpson]

I know, but you know, what I took away from that? It was the totality of the circumstances. It was. It was all these things that he found during the autopsy, but then also. Also thinking the door was latched from the inside, that the police already ruled it a, you know, a suicide, that he thought that Sam was accompanied by the doorman and that the latch was you.

[Shane Simpson]

And I could do all that. I thought this guy's supposed to have training to look and learn about wounds and stab wounds and, you know, hemorrhaging and all that stuff.

[Emily Simpson]

Also, the strange 911 call kind of leads to the thought that it could possibly be homicide. The fact that he doesn't notice the knife in her heart when he first comes into. When he calls 91 1, he doesn't mention it until, like, halfway through the call to do cpr. It just doesn't sound like. He doesn't sound like a grieving fiance.

[Shane Simpson]

The clean rag in her hand is kind of seems random, you know, also.

[Emily Simpson]

Someone said, I don't know that when people. Because when someone commits suicide and it is a stabbing suicide, that normally they lift their shirt up or their clothing up. Her stab was through her sweater.

[Shane Simpson]

That's interesting. Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

So that's something else.

[Shane Simpson]

But then is there a. Is there. Is there a normal routine for suicide by stabbing?

[Emily Simpson]

There's not. All you can do is look back at, you know, and, you know, it reminds me of even Amanda Knox's case where the prosecutor was so hell bent on the fact that. That the body was covered, that it must have been a woman.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Because, you know, women.

[Shane Simpson]

That's what only women do, that women cover the body.

[Emily Simpson]

So again, it's not a proven science, but I think it's just something.

[Shane Simpson]

Something to think about.

[Emily Simpson]

It's something to think about that and. I don't know, I'm trying to picture myself, like, trying to stab myself. I don't know. Maybe I probably would lift my shirt up.

[Shane Simpson]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know.

[Shane Simpson]

I don't know. I know. You wouldn't lift my shirt up.

[Emily Simpson]

No.

[Shane Simpson]

It would go right through my favorite shirt if you had to.

[Emily Simpson]

And then also, again, when we're talking about homicide, the possibility of a postmortem cut into the spinal cord, which would have occurred after death because there was no hemorrhaging. A security guard said he had not been there when the fiance forced open the door. And despite two relatives claims that they'd been on the phone with Goldberg when he forced open the door, a CNN analysis of phone records and other evidence seemed to contradict that claim. So I guess there were relatives that claimed to have been on the phone with him when he broke the door down. And then forensically, it seemed that that didn't.

[Shane Simpson]

That doesn't mean anything to me. If. Even if they were, because if he's going to fake it, he could fake that, too, but you know that. So the wounds on the back of the neck were the ones that were not hemorrhage.

[Emily Simpson]

No. Well, just. There's several wounds on the back, but.

[Shane Simpson]

It was the back of the neck.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, but there was one that was close to the spinal cord, and that's the one that wasn't hemorrhaging.

[Shane Simpson]

Hear me out, okay? When someone dies.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane Simpson]

Is it like as soon as they're heart stops beating, that's the moment they won't hemorrhage or is there.

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, you mean is there a leak?

[Shane Simpson]

Because it's on the. It's on the back of the neck and she's leaned up against the cabinet. I would think she died. I mean, the position that she's in, that means someone. She has to die in that position and then get stabbed. Like, they move her head away from the wall, stab, and then put it back. I don't know. It just seems a little out of order.

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, I see what you're saying. You're saying because it was a. If. If we're. If we're taking it as a postmortem stab.

[Shane Simpson]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

Then she's already on the ground and she's already slumped over and.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah. And you're saying back of her neck's probably covered or she's up against the wall, or it's not easily Accessible? Yeah, I don't know. Just more questions, no answers.

[Emily Simpson]

So Ellen's parents continue to fight against the suicide ruling to this very day. So Ellen's parents, Josh and Sandy, filed two civil lawsuits. One in 2019 against the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office and Dr. Osborne to change the ruling on their daughter's death certificate. And then another suit in 2022 against the City of Philadelphia, former Chief Medical Examiner Sam Gulino, and others involved, alleging that the investigation was mishandled and covered up by the city officials. In February of 2025, the Greenberg celebrated a major legal victory when the city settled both suits and the medical examiner's office agreed to reopen its investigation into Greenberg's cause of death. The ruling came shortly after Dr. Osborne signed an affidavit stating that Ellen's death should be classified as something other than suicide, according to NBC Philadelphia. He reportedly made the decision after reviewing new information in the case and consulting with a pediatric neuropathologist. The settlement also included an undisclosed amount of money. The Greenbergs went back to court in September of 2025. The case returned to court last month as attorneys for her family pressed for answers about delays in the independent autopsy review. So that was part of the settlement, was that someone else was going to do an independent autopsy. Despite the settlement earlier this year, the Greenbergs claim they have received no updates or news regarding Ellen's case. The next hearing on the matter is scheduled for October 14, which is this month.

[Shane Simpson]

Next week.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. And they're supposed to have this independent autopsy done prior to October 14th. So we will continue to follow this case.

[Shane Simpson]

If we solved another crime, we will.

[Emily Simpson]

Follow this case and see what happens and see if this. This crime. I. This is one of those crimes where even. Like you said earlier, even if they. It's ruled a homicide and they're going to go back and reinvestigate now, there's.

[Shane Simpson]

Just enough evidence to be confused.

[Emily Simpson]

It's enough evidence on both sides to. To confuse you. That's right. I don't know. I lean towards suicide. You know what, though? I was thinking about this guy, Sam.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

So first they rule it a suicide, and he's probably like, yes. Then at the funeral, if he did it right then at the funeral is when the media outlets report that it's been changed to a homicide or not changed with. The medical examiner said it was a homicide. So that guy's probably, like, pissing his pants, right?

[Shane Simpson]

If he did it.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, no, it doesn't matter if he did it or not. They ruled it. If they rule it a homicide. It's, it's him. I mean, he's the only perpetrator they're gonna come after. Then they change it back to a suicide. So he's probably like, okay, I'm in the clear again. And now they're, they're, you know, ruling on whether they're going to investigate it again or not. I mean, this guy probably wakes up every day and has, he's, he's just.

[Shane Simpson]

Am I a person of interest today or am I a victim today? Which is it?

[Emily Simpson]

And if, if he was the perpetrator, then good. I mean, he should be living in a state of perpetual fear and hell. But if he didn't do it, that is a crappy way to live life. Not knowing whether they're going to come after you, you or not.

[Shane Simpson]

Right?

[Emily Simpson]

So at the end of the day, we don't know what's going to happen. We'll see what happens on this court date in October 14th. And again, thank you so much, guys, for listening to Lili Brunette. We appreciate you follow.

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Someone will be eliminated.

[Emily Simpson]

Pressure is coming down.

[Commercial Announcer]

Trainer games on Prime Video January 8th.

[Shane Simpson]

Watch the trailer on trainergames.com hey, audiobook lovers. I'm Cal Penn. I'm Ed Helms. Ed and I are inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with our new podcast, Irsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

[Commercial Announcer]

Each week we sit down with your favorite iHeart podcast hosts and some very special guests to discuss the latest and.

[Shane Simpson]

Greatest audiobooks from audible, listen to Earsay on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow Earsay and start listening on the free iHeartradio app today.