Two Ts In A Pod: Legally Brunette - Ellen Greenberg: Suicide or Homicide?

Podcast: Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge
Episode: Legally Brunette: Ellen Greenberg – Suicide or Homicide?
Date: October 7, 2025
Hosted by: Emily Simpson & Shane Simpson (Legally Brunette on Two Ts in a Pod feed)

Main Theme and Purpose

This detailed episode focuses on the mysterious case of Ellen Greenberg, a Philadelphia first-grade teacher who was found dead with 20 stab wounds in her apartment in 2011. The controversial investigation and rapid switches between ruling her death a suicide and then a homicide—and back again—provide a springboard for Emily and Shane to interrogate evidence, question official findings, and discuss the ongoing fight by Ellen’s parents to have the case re-examined. The episode is equal parts recap of the recent Hulu series Death in Apartment 603: What Happened to Ellen Greenberg? and a legal/social autopsy fueled by true crime curiosity.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Case Overview and Media Recap

• [10:35-13:03] Emily introduces the Hulu series about Ellen Greenberg and offers a brief recap of the case:
  • January 2011: Ellen found dead in her Philadelphia apartment with 20 stab wounds, kitchen knife in her chest.
  • Fiance Sam Goldberg found her after breaking through a latched door.
  • Police quickly ruled suicide; medical examiner first ruled homicide, then changed back to suicide.

"When you see a headline and the headline is 'stabbed 20 times. Suicide or murder?', you say, 'well, she... was clearly, yeah, murdered. Because how does someone stab themselves 20 times?'"
— Emily Simpson [12:12]

2. Ellen’s Mental State and Relationship Context

• [14:03-19:21] The hosts reconstruct Ellen’s life and deteriorating mental health:
  • Ellen’s parents and friends noted a drastic behavioral change in the months prior—anxiety, desire to quit job and move home.
  • She attended three psychiatrist appointments and was prescribed Klonopin and Ambien.
  • Psych notes just before her death: “not suicidal”, “75% better”.
  • Ellen’s texts revealed struggles, especially regarding her job, desire to escape, and feeling unsupported by her fiancé.

"To me, she was spiraling, and she was becoming increasingly depressed and increasingly upset... It makes me sad because I feel like people missed... how clearly sad she was."
— Emily Simpson [16:15]

• Shane questions the lack of support from Sam:

“He would say things like, ‘you’re not a quitter’, and that bothered me.”
— Emily Simpson [15:36]

3. Day of Death Timeline

• [20:46-27:54] The timeline on January 26, 2011 is meticulously pieced together:
  • Snowstorm (“nor’easter”) causes early release from school.
  • Ellen comes home, works from her laptop, communicates with friends, and is last digitally active at 4:45pm.
  • Sam leaves for the gym at 4:45pm, returns at 5:30pm but can't get in—the latch is locked from inside.
  • He calls and texts angrily (“Hello? Open the door. What are you doing? I’m getting pissed…”) [23:19].
  • Neighbors hear Sam trying to force entry, but nothing else.
  • Eventually, Sam breaks down the door at 6:30pm, finds Ellen, and calls 911.

“If you’re not answering the door… the first thing you do is see if they’re okay. This guy is getting pissed at her, like she’s refusing to open the door… Is that normal behavior for them?”
— Shane Simpson [23:54]

4. Investigation Response & Crime Scene Handling

• [27:54-44:57] The hosts highlight several investigative failings and peculiarities:
  • Police quickly accept the scenario as suicide due to the locked door and Ellen’s mental health history.
  • Sam’s uncle (a lawyer) gains access to the apartment the next day—retrieves not just a suit, but Ellen’s devices, purse, pays for and triggers a crime scene clean-up before the autopsy is reviewed.
  • Conflict between the medical examiner (initially ruling homicide, citing multiple deep wounds and old bruises) and police.

“His uncle that is asking for access to the apartment immediately. And he does it to get a suit. He says it's under the pretense of wanting to get a suit, probably for the funeral… He takes the computer to her purse and her phone, and he also pays for a crime scene cleanup to come in and wipe everything down.”
— Emily Simpson [44:11]

5. Autopsy and Forensic Doubts

• [46:00-49:09] Dr. Marlon Osborne’s autopsy documented:
  • Multiple stab wounds (chest, abdomen, back of neck, aorta, lung, spine).
  • 11 bruises at different healing stages.
  • Still, the final determination kept shifting after police meetings.
  • Uncertainty if she had any suicide precursors aside from recent anxiety.
  • Superficial wounds mixed with lethal ones; typical in hesitation suicides, but rare in stabbings.

“A lot of people, if they—not a lot of people choose stabbing for suicide, let’s be clear!—but if they do, there are a lot of times… hesitation wounds.”
— Emily Simpson [46:56]

6. Points for Suicide and Homicide

• [62:26-64:09] Evidence for Suicide:

  • Shallow hesitation stabs.
  • No defensive wounds.
  • Door locked from the inside.
  • No disturbance, struggle, or forced entry.
  • Search history found for “methods of committing suicide” (despite chain of custody issues).

• [64:09-68:41] Evidence for Homicide:

  • Possible post-mortem wound (lack of hemorrhaging at spinal cord).
  • Bruising on neck possibly indicating strangulation.
  • Multiple healing bruises (suggests prior abuse).
  • Sam’s odd and delayed recognition of the knife in 911 call.
  • No witness to his door-break except Sam.
  • Uncle’s premature intervention disrupting evidentiary chain.
  • Clean white towel in Ellen’s hand, very little blood on it.

“The wounds on the back of the neck... on the spinal cord, the pathologist was of the opinion that because there was no hemorrhaging, that cut occurred after death… that could have been struck after death, which obviously means it wasn’t suicide because she can’t stab herself if she’s already deceased.”
— Emily Simpson [64:30]

• Shane comments on the lack of defensive wounds:

“You would think that if it was a blitz attack… that she would put her hands up… there were no defensive wounds… and only her DNA on the knife.”
— Shane Simpson [61:36; 62:10]

7. Official Delays, Parental Advocacy, and Recent Developments

• [73:53-75:05] Ellen’s parents maintain a legal and public fight for justice:
  • Two civil lawsuits (2019, 2022) against the Medical Examiner’s Office and the City of Philadelphia, citing botched investigation and coverup.
  • 2025: Settlement includes agreement to reclassify death as “undetermined” and conduct a new independent autopsy.
  • As of this episode, outcome of new autopsy and findings still pending, with a court hearing set for October 14.

“He reportedly made the decision after reviewing new information in the case and consulting with a pediatric neuropathologist. The settlement also included an undisclosed amount of money… Despite the settlement earlier this year, the Greenbergs claim they have received no updates or news regarding Ellen’s case."
— Emily Simpson [73:11]

8. The Hosts' Theories and Emotional Takeaways

• The hosts vacillate between both possible verdicts, highlighting the sheer ambiguity and emotional toll.
• Emily leans, tentatively, toward suicide based on the weight of direct evidence but admits doubt and frustration.
• Shane pushes back on details in the suicide narrative, especially the lack of deep mental health/criminal history and the odd behavior of Sam and his uncle.

_“I’m more frustrated ending this podcast than I was starting it… Just enough evidence to be confused."
— Shane Simpson [57:08, 73:49]

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Emily on case complexity:
  “At the end of the day, it reminds me of just like the Karen Reed case where the only people that know what happened don’t speak. Don’t speak. And I don’t know if we’ll, we’ll ever actually know what happened, but we’re going to talk about it.” [11:08]

• On Sam’s angry texts as Ellen is unresponsive:
  “He’s not saying, are you okay? … He’s pissed.” — Emily Simpson [24:21-24:30]

• On the broken chain of custody:
  “The chain of custody is broken when the uncle comes and takes it [the laptop].” — Emily Simpson [56:25]

• Medical examiner’s flip-flopping:
  “Following the meeting with investigators, Dr. Osborne made an unprecedented decision to change his original ruling. He reversed his earlier classification of the death as a homicide and… concluded that Ellen’s death was actually a suicide. Dr. Osborne has stated that no notes were taken and there is no recording of this important meeting.” — Emily Simpson [59:36-60:41]

Important Timestamps

• [10:35] Case introduction: Ellen Greenberg summary and Hulu series mention
• [14:03] Ellen’s psychological struggles begin
• [20:46] Day of death timeline starts
• [23:19] Sam’s text messages to Ellen when locked out
• [27:54] Key investigative sequence: police/timeline breakdown
• [44:11] Uncle's intervention, evidence/scene destruction
• [46:00] Autopsy findings and hesitation wounds discussion
• [54:41] Debated web search history and chain of custody issues
• [59:36] ME’s ruling change after private meeting with police
• [61:13] Ellen’s parents react to cause-of-death flip-flop
• [62:26 & 64:09] Side-by-side lists: evidence for suicide vs homicide
• [73:53] Legal battle by Ellen’s parents and settlement
• [75:05] Upcoming October 14 court date

Tone and Style

Throughout, Emily and Shane maintain a conversational, questioning, and sometimes playfully argumentative style, rooted in legal analysis and true crime enthusiast energy. They express genuine frustration and empathy both for Ellen’s parents and for the murkiness of the investigation.

In Summary

Emily and Shane deliver a thorough dissection of the Ellen Greenberg case, highlighting the contradictions, forensic ambiguities, and emotional toll on the family. The episode effectively balances skepticism and compassion, offering listeners a detailed case breakdown, social insight, and a reminder of the complexities facing both justice and those left seeking it.

"I don’t know… that’s the question. Was it a suicide or a homicide? It’s enough evidence on both sides to confuse you. That’s right."
— Emily Simpson [73:50]

Next steps: Listeners are encouraged to follow upcoming developments, particularly the October 14 hearing and results from the independent autopsy, as Ellen Greenberg’s still-unresolved death remains one of the great contemporary unsolved mysteries in true crime.