Legally Brunette: Karen Read - Case Closed

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Legally Brunette: Karen Read - Case Closed"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge
• Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
• Episode: Legally Brunette: Karen Read - Case Closed
• Release Date: June 19, 2025
• Description: Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge team up to Tell All. Listen each week as they watch and rehash as only they can. Who knows housewives better than housewives?! Right?! Teddi and Tamra are Two Ts in a Pod.

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Introduction to the Case

[00:00 - 03:00] The episode "Legally Brunette: Karen Read - Case Closed" delves into the high-profile legal battle surrounding Karen Read, a woman who was retried for the murder of John O'Keefe. Karen initially spent over a decade in prison for a murder she maintains she did not commit. During her incarceration, she became a jailhouse lawyer, advocating for fellow inmates.

Notable Quote:

"You're supposed to have your faith in God, but I had nothing but faith in her." – Karen Read [00:00]

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Case Overview and Trial Proceedings

[03:00 - 12:00] Hosts Emily and Bob Crawford provide a comprehensive overview of the Karen Read case. Karen was charged with second-degree murder, manslaughter while operating a motor vehicle under the influence, and leaving the scene of a collision resulting in death. The incident occurred during a blizzard in January 2022 when Karen allegedly hit her boyfriend, John O'Keefe, with her Lexus SUV and left him to die.

Key Points:

• Prosecution's Claim: Karen Reed intentionally hit John O'Keefe while under the influence of alcohol.
• Defense's Argument: The collision was unintentional, suggesting that O'Keefe was attacked by others inside the house and the dog's involvement led to his injuries.

Notable Quotes:

"The prosecution does not scrub them. Yes. They were hoping that we just all forgot that." – Bob Crawford [12:17]

"The defense is complete. Defense in this case is basically that he was beat up inside the house by other people, police officers, and the dog was somehow involved and attacked him, and then they drug his body." – Emily [08:36]

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Testimonies and Evidence Presented

[12:00 - 35:00] The retrial brought forth several key testimonies that played a pivotal role in shaping the jury's perspective.

1. Jennifer McCabe's Testimony [19:00 - 21:00]:

   • Background: Friend of both Reed and O'Keefe; sister-in-law of Brian Albert, owner of the residence.
   • Defense's Focus: McCabe's text messages suggested a potential cover-up.
   • Key Issue: Despite knowing Brian Albert is a police officer, McCabe did not seek his immediate assistance during the incident.

   Notable Quote:

   "You have all these police officers that are alleged to have killed him and were worried about whether the dog did or did not scratch him." – Bob Crawford [20:22]

2. Brian Laughlin's Testimony [20:35 - 21:04]:

   • Role: Long-time snowplow driver familiar with the neighborhood.
   • Defense's Claim: Did not observe any body at the scene during his multiple passes between 2:40 and 2:45 AM.

   Notable Quote:

   "He could clearly see the front door of the home... I saw nothing." – Brian Laughlin [20:52]

3. Sergeant Yuri Buchanik's Testimony [22:07 - 23:17]:

   • Background: Massachusetts State Police Officer.
   • Focus: Investigative misconduct by former trooper Michael Proctor, who was dismissed for mishandling the initial investigation.
   • Defense's Angle: Proctor's involvement suggested potential bias and corruption within the investigation.

   Notable Quote:

   "Clearly, the reason he was on the stand is they're trying to take away the power from Michael Proctor and his." – Emily [23:31]

4. Trooper Nicholas Guarino's Testimony [24:00 - 26:23]:

   • Role: Massachusetts State Police Officer.
   • Prosecution's Claim: Karen Reed called John O'Keefe over 50 times, leaving multiple voicemails expressing frustration and anger.
   • Interpretation: These voicemails were used to depict a strained relationship and possible motive.

   Notable Quote:

   "This is a woman who had no idea that a man was laying dead on a police officer's lawn." – Emily [25:25]

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Closing Arguments

[35:00 - 51:00]

1. Defense - Alan Jackson's Closing Statement [35:00 - 43:50]:

   • Central Argument: Emphasized the lack of concrete evidence linking Reed directly to the murder. Highlighted inconsistencies in the prosecution's case, such as the condition of the tail light and the demeanor of the medical examiners.
   • Focus on Reasonable Doubt: Argued that no medical expert confirmed that John was hit by Reed's vehicle, thereby instilling reasonable doubt in the jurors' minds.

   Notable Quote:

   "There is no evidence that John was hit by a car. None. How much more reasonable doubt could there be?" – Alan Jackson [35:00]

2. Prosecution - Hank Brennan's Closing Statement [43:50 - 53:00]:

   • Main Points: Asserted that Reed was under the influence and intentionally left John to die, painting the act as second-degree murder.
   • Argument on Relationship Dynamics: Discussed the unhealthy state of Reed and O'Keefe's relationship, suggesting that heightened tensions and alcohol consumption led to the fatal incident.

   Notable Quote:

   "John O'Keefe is not a body. John O'Keefe was not a buffalo on a prairie. John O'Keefe was a person and he was murdered by Karen Reed." – Hank Brennan [54:00]

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Verdict and Aftermath

[53:00 - 75:00]

After over a month of testimonies and four days of deliberation, the jury delivered its verdict:

• Not Guilty: Karen Reed was acquitted of second-degree murder, manslaughter while operating under the influence, and leaving the scene of a collision resulting in death.
• Guilty: Found liable for operating a vehicle under the influence with a blood alcohol level of 0.8% or greater.
• Sentencing: Karen Reed was sentenced to a year of probation.
• Pending Civil Suit: The O'Keefe family has a pending civil lawsuit for wrongful death against Reed, which was stayed during the criminal trial and is set to proceed post-verdict.

Notable Quotes:

"The jury got it right. She should have been acquitted. But it's sad." – Emily [28:47]

"It's an epitome of reasonable doubt. Like, this case is so fascinating." – Emily [72:20]

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Discussion and Analysis

[35:00 - 75:00]

Emily and Bob Crawford engage in an in-depth discussion analyzing the trial's outcome, questioning the integrity of the investigation, and expressing skepticism about the police department's role.

Key Discussion Points:

1. Police Investigation Concerns:

   • The hosts highlight potential corruption and negligence within the Massachusetts State Police, especially concerning the lead investigator Michael Proctor.
   • They question why Proctor was excluded from the retrial and discuss the defense's implications of a police cover-up.

2. Evidence and Reasonable Doubt:

   • Emphasis on the lack of medical evidence directly linking Reed's vehicle to O'Keefe's fatal injuries.
   • Discussion on the inconsistencies in physical evidence, such as the shattered tail light and missing shoe, raising doubts about the collision's nature.

3. Civil Suit Implications:

   • The hosts debate the feasibility and morality of the O'Keefe family's pending civil lawsuit against Reed, considering the mistrial and the standards of evidence in civil cases versus criminal cases.
   • They draw parallels to the O.J. Simpson case, where the defendant was acquitted criminally but found liable in civil court.

4. Public Perception and Media Influence:

   • Discussion on how public support and media coverage may have influenced the trial's outcome.
   • The impact of Reed's documentary "A Body in the Snow" and her public interviews on jurors' perceptions.

Notable Quotes:

"Now the police department's guilty." – Bob Crawford [28:04]

"I'm saying, how do you go forward with this wrongful death suit against Karen Reed when you sat in court every single day and you heard all of the tests?" – Emily [69:17]

"This case should be studied in law school. It is." – Emily [72:44]

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Conclusion

[75:00 - End]

The episode concludes with Emily and Bob reflecting on the complexities and unresolved questions surrounding the Karen Read case. They express hope for future developments in the civil suit and underscore the case's significance in legal studies due to its emblematic demonstration of reasonable doubt.

Final Thoughts:

• The case remains controversial, with lingering doubts about the investigation's integrity and the true nature of the incident.
• The hosts anticipate continued public interest and media coverage, drawing comparisons to other high-profile legal cases.

Notable Quote:

"This is such a fascinating... It's a puzzle." – Emily [71:26]

---

This episode of "Two Ts In A Pod" meticulously unpacks the intricate legal battle of Karen Read, highlighting critical testimonies, evidentiary debates, and the broader implications of the verdict. Through insightful dialogue, Emily and Bob shed light on the complexities of the justice system, the challenges of achieving true accountability, and the enduring quest for justice in perplexing cases.

Transcript

[Emily]

This is an iHeart podcast. The girlfriends is back with a new season, and this time I'm telling you the story of Kelly Harnett. Kelly spent over a decade in prison for a murder she says she didn't commit. As she fought for her freedom, she taught herself the law. He goes oh God. Harnett jailhouse lawyer and became a beacon of hope for the women locked up alongside her. You're supposed to have your faith in God, but I had nothing but faith in her. I think I was to save souls by getting people out of prison. The Girlfriends jailhouse lawyer listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danielle Robay]

Just like great shoes, great books take you places through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.

[Emily]

I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies.

[Danielle Robay]

I'm Danielle Robay and this is bookmarked by by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from hello Sunshine and I Heart Podcast, where we dive into the stories that shape us on the page and off. Each week I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk stars and more for conversations that will make you laugh, cry, and add way too many books to your TBR pile. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Bob Crawford]

I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, a different type of podcast. You, the listener, ask the questions.

[Emily]

Did George Washington really cut down a cherry tree? Were JFK and Marilyn Monroe having an affair?

[Bob Crawford]

And I find the answers. I'm so glad you asked me this question.

[Emily]

This is such a ridiculous story.

[Bob Crawford]

You can listen to American History Hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My uncle Chris was a real character, a garbage truck driver from South Carolina who is now buried in Panama City alongside the founding families of Panama. He also happens to be responsible for the craziest night of my life. Wild stories about adventure, romance, crime, history and war intertwine as I share the tall tales and hard truths that have helped me understand Uncle Chris. Listen now to Uncle Chris on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Danielle Robay]

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[Emily]

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[Emily]

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[Danielle Robay]

Clean, it's got to be tied.

[Emily]

Hi, guys. Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunette. I'll be your host, Emily.

[Bob Crawford]

And Shane.

[Emily]

Just Shane. This is actually a very exciting day today. We were super happy that this worked out because the Karen Reed verdict came in today. So we were definitely going to get into that. We're just going to go through the case a little bit, do a little overview, go into the closing arguments and then talk about the verdict. But before we go into Karen Reed, we always like to do a little bit of an update in the beginning on some of the other cases that we talked about. So I don't know if you guys had the opportunity to listen to this episode, but we did go into the Idaho murders a couple episodes back if you want to go back and look for it. But one of the things that we talked about was the doordash driver. Do you remember this? And we were like there was such a close time frame as to when the delivery was made and then there was actually evidence of a photo of the food delivered. But this was the same time that Cobra, wasn't it?

[Bob Crawford]

The doordash issue caused more question questions to be had than answers. Like it. Wasn't it more confusing?

[Emily]

Most likely. But I remember saying that once this trial starts, we're going to see the doordash driver. And that was. That was a new update that came out. I read that today that a doordash driver is expecting to testify at the upcoming Idaho murders trial, which will start in August. I don't remember the exact date, but it's August. And that she actually saw Brian Coburger during a delivery on the night of the fatal stabbings. It's a 44 year old woman identified only as MM and documents. And she told police during a traffic stop. So she got pulled over in Pullman, Washington last year that she delivered food to Zanna Kernodal on the early hours of November 13th of 2022.

[Bob Crawford]

One of the victims or just someone visiting the house, Zanna, was one of.

[Emily]

The college students that was murdered that evening. So the door dash driver uttered the words I saw Brian there to officers, adding that she had parked right next to him when she had pulled into the house. The purported delivery is alleged to have taken place just minutes before Kernodle, her boyfriend Eth and the two roommates, Kaylee and Madison were all stabbed to death. By a masked assailant. The woman also told an officer that she may be called to the stand to testify at Coburger's trial, according to body cam video of the conversation, which was posted to YouTube, quote, I have to testify in a big murder case here because I'm the door dash driver. So. Yeah. The woman says in the clip as she's being questioned over a suspected DUI back in September of 2024.

[Bob Crawford]

That's. That's something a doordasher never thought they would be a part of. Yeah. When you. When you signed up to be a doordasher, did you think that you would be a witness to, like, one of the largest murder cases in the country?

[Emily]

Right.

[Bob Crawford]

In terms of popularity and the fact.

[Emily]

That she literally delivered the doordash, like, as he was. Yeah. How does it feel?

[Bob Crawford]

Like you could have been murdered?

[Emily]

No, I mean, that's a possibility.

[Bob Crawford]

What was your tip that night?

[Emily]

The trial against Bryan Coburger is just a few months away, but family and friends of the victims will have their voices heard in a new documentary which will be on Amazon Prime. It's called One Night in Ice, Idaho, the College Murders.

[Bob Crawford]

Oh, when's that coming out?

[Emily]

I don't know if there's a date, but I believe it's soon. It will spotlight the Morning after the 4 University of Idaho students, Zanna, Ethan, Madison, and Kaylee were killed in their home off campus in 2022. It's told in captivating, tense, and emotionally wrenching detail by only those involved in and affected by the crime. The series intimately explores the American tragedy and its continued impact and fallout. This is described in the Amazon prime press release.

[Bob Crawford]

Oh, so they. So they've announced it formally.

[Emily]

It's actually airing July 11, 2025, which, by the way, is the day after that. Real Housewives of Orange county season 19 airs on July 10th. So this airs the next day.

[Bob Crawford]

It won't affect your ratings.

[Emily]

Thank you for that. So you guys will have lots of good stuff to watch in July. So, you know, I don't know. I. It'll be interesting to see what they do say because clearly they can't say things or give interviews that are going to impact. Right.

[Bob Crawford]

The trial one way or another.

[Emily]

Right.

[Bob Crawford]

But we're definitely gonna have to discuss that one.

[Emily]

Absolutely.

[Bob Crawford]

It's like one episode.

[Emily]

Do we know it says a docu series, so.

[Bob Crawford]

So there's more than one?

[Emily]

Yeah. All right, let's move on. And before we get to the verdict, which came out today in the Karen Reed retrial, let's Just go through and do like a little bit of a reminder about everything that's happened so far. So what were the prose and the defense arguing? I know this. So many people are invested in this case, so a lot of you know this. But I do feel like it's important just to have like a basic overview so we can get into closing arguments.

[Bob Crawford]

My memory refreshed.

[Emily]

Yes. And Shane has. I've been married to him for 16 years, so his memory is about as long as a butterfly.

[Bob Crawford]

What?

[Emily]

Because every day you're like one.

[Bob Crawford]

I've never heard that. I don't phrase before.

[Emily]

Well, I figure a butterfly doesn't have a long term memory because they don't last very long. But every day you're like, what are you doing today? Wait, did you tell me again, what.

[Bob Crawford]

Are you doing today? Now we're getting into something else that's. You don't tell me what you're doing until five minutes before you're like, oh, yeah, I forgot. I'm going to Las Vegas this week.

[Emily]

That is not even true. All right, anyway, back to Karen Reed. So the prosecutors alleged that Reed hit her boyfriend, John o', Keefe, with her car. She had a Lexus SUV outside of the home of a fellow police officer, Brian Albert, in January of 2022 and left him to die there during a blizzard.

[Bob Crawford]

This is three and a half years.

[Emily]

Yeah. This is after a night of drink. The defense has argued that Reed's vehicle could not have hit o' Keefe and instead said that o' Keefe was attacked by a dog and beaten by other people who were in the house before. He was then thrown out in the snow and left to die.

[Bob Crawford]

That's a gang up. When the dog also joined in.

[Emily]

Oh, yeah, man. The dog's like, let's get him. Okay, look, I have a. I was thinking about this today because I was thinking about how the defense. The defense is complete. Defense in this case is basically that he was beat up inside the house by other people, police officers, and the dog was a part of it.

[Bob Crawford]

Right.

[Emily]

I. I have. We have a German shepherd. He's a German shepherd husky. If there is a fight, if there is an altercation in this house, that dog would get into it.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Emily]

I know.

[Bob Crawford]

Okay, so what's, what's your point?

[Emily]

My point is, is that pretending or, or trying to act like a German shepherd in a home of a police officer, if there was a fight, that a German shepherd wouldn't have, like gotten involved in an altercation with men when.

[Bob Crawford]

There'S, you know who's arguing that the dog wasn't involved? The prosecution.

[Emily]

Well. Well, they're arguing that she hit him. I'm just saying that's not a far fetched idea. That's my point. My point is not like the defense came up with some random theory that doesn't.

[Bob Crawford]

But it's also, to me, it wouldn't sway me one way or another. I mean, it's like you have all these police officers that are alleged to have killed him and were worried about whether the dog did or did not scratch him.

[Emily]

Well, it comes down to the evidence on his arm.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah.

[Emily]

I mean, it looks like scratches and dog bites.

[Bob Crawford]

Oh, and the dog was relocated.

[Emily]

The dog was.

[Bob Crawford]

He went under a witness protection program.

[Emily]

The dog is currently. Yes, because here's the other thing that didn't make sense to me. It was Chloe. Is the dog okay? Chloe was re home shortly after this incident. And how can you not find Chloe? Like, wouldn't you go chipped and.

[Bob Crawford]

Well, I don't know.

[Emily]

I mean, I. I feel like if my dog was involved in an altercation and then I just gave him away.

[Bob Crawford]

Shouldn'T that be subpoenaed? Like we're going to subpoena. Like who? The dog?

[Emily]

Yes. He's compelled to come into court.

[Bob Crawford]

I'll just re home the witness and no one's going to ask about him.

[Emily]

Brief overview of what happened after the first trial. So we know that there was a hung jury in the first trial. So the commonwealth decided to retry her, which again, I thought was a huge mistake.

[Bob Crawford]

That's exhausting. At least I think a hung jury in general, like as a layperson, a hung jury means there's doubt. And so why would you try again? Like, let's find some more people that might find them guilty. These people didn't find them guilty. Let's go find some more.

[Emily]

These people didn't work out. Let's try different ones. Yeah. At least four jurors who served on Karen Reed's last her first trial last year have confirmed that she was found not guilty of second degree murder and leaving the scene of personal injury and death, according to Reed's attorneys. I do remember that Reed's attorneys did try to make a motion before the court that she be acquitted because there were juries that spoke afterwards that had had relayed the information that they did find her guilty, even though they didn't formally say that. They just, it just came up with. They said we couldn't make a decision. And so it was a huge Talk.

[Bob Crawford]

To the jurors then afterwards, because can they be, like, what was convincing? Why did you think they were. You mean, why did you think they weren't guilty?

[Emily]

You mean to say we eliminate what worked and what didn't? However, the jury could not come to an agreement on a third charge of manslaughter while operating a motor vehicle under the influence. Her lawyers filed multiple appeals all the way to the Supreme Court, claiming Reed should not have been retried on the counts the jury apparently agreed on, saying it would amount to double jeopardy even. Each appeal was denied. She's pleaded not guilty to all three charges and maintains her innocence. She was facing this. And this is the retrial. Three main charges with the death of John o', Keefe, second degree murder, manslaughter while operating a motor vehicle under the influence and leaving the scene of a collision resulting in death.

[Bob Crawford]

So you might have said this, but can I ask a question?

[Emily]

Did.

[Bob Crawford]

Is she using the same attorneys?

[Emily]

Yeah, she. Well, she added to her team. She has a bigger team this time, but she still. Her. Her main attorneys are Alan Jackson, then prosecutor.

[Bob Crawford]

Is the same prosecutor.

[Emily]

No, Remember, we talked about this before they brought it.

[Bob Crawford]

That's why I said, remind me.

[Emily]

Yes, I'm reminding you.

[Bob Crawford]

Remember my memories. Yes, yes.

[Emily]

It's probably worse. They brought in a special prosecutor, Hank Brennan, who also represented or. Yeah, the. Remember.

[Bob Crawford]

Oh, yeah, I remember.

[Emily]

Whitey Bulger. Whitey Bulger. Yes, his first name.

[Bob Crawford]

Whitey.

[Emily]

Yeah, he was a mobster.

[Bob Crawford]

Oh, yeah. Okay. This makes you think of Tighty Whitey.

[Emily]

That's righty. Tighty. Whitey Vulture. So what happened to Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to.

[Bob Crawford]

There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond and.

[Emily]

Left a woman behind to drown. There's a famous headline, I think, in the New York Daily News. It's teddy Escapes, Blonde Drowns. And in a strange way, Right, that sort of tells you the story really became about Ted's political future, Ted's political hopes. Will Ted become president?

[Bob Crawford]

Kappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control.

[Emily]

And he's not the only Kennedy to survive a scandal.

[Bob Crawford]

The Kennedys have lived through disgrace, affairs, violence, you name it. So is there a curse? Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family.

[Emily]

Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Bob Crawford]

American history is full of wise people.

[Emily]

Walt Whitman said something like, you know.

[Bob Crawford]

99.99% of war is diarrhea and 1% is glory.

[Emily]

Those founding fathers were gossipy AF and they love to cut each other down.

[Bob Crawford]

I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, the show where you send us your questions about American history and I find the answers, including the nuggets of wisdom our history has to offer. Hamilton pauses and then he says, the greatest man that ever lived was Julius Caesar. And Jefferson writes in his diary, this proves that Hamilton is for a dictator based on corruption. My favorite line was what Neil Armstrong said. It would have been harder to fake it than to do it. Listen to American History Hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danielle Robay]

Just like great shoes, great books take you places through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.

[Emily]

I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies.

[Danielle Robay]

I'm Danielle Roubais and this is bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from hello Sunshine and I Heart Podcasts. Every week I sit down with your favorite book lovers, authors, celebrities, book talkers and more to explore the stories that shape us on the page and off. I've been reading every Reese's Book Club pick, deep diving book talk theories and obsessing over book to screen casts for years. And now I get to talk to the people making the magic. So if you've ever fallen in love with a fictional character or cried at the last chapter or passed a book to a friend saying you have to read this, this podcast is for you. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Emily]

From iHeart podcasts and rococo Punch.

[Danielle Robay]

This is the Turning River Road.

[Emily]

I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but. But I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult.

[Danielle Robay]

Leader married himself to 10 girls and.

[Emily]

Forced them into a secret life of abuse. Why did I think that way? Why did I allow myself to get so sucked in by this man and thinking to the point that if I died for him, that would be the greatest honor.

[Danielle Robay]

But in 2014, the youngest of the girls escaped and sparked an international manhunt.

[Emily]

For all those years, you know, he was the predator and I was the prey. And then he became the prey.

[Danielle Robay]

Listen to the Turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or Wherever.

[Emily]

You get your podcasts. I'm Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford, and in session 421 of Therapy for Black Girls, I sit down with Dr. Afia and Billy Shaka to explore how our hair connects to our identity, mental health, and the ways we heal. Because I think hair is a complex language system, right. In terms of it can tell how old you are, your marital status, where you're from, your spiritual beliefs. But I think with social media, there's like a hyper fixation and observation of our hair. Right. That this is sometimes the first thing someone sees when we make a post or a reel is how our hair is styled. We talk about the important role hairstylists play in our communities, the pressure to always look put together, and how breaking up with perfection can actually free us. Plus, if you're someone who gets anxious about flying, don't miss session 418 with Dr. Angela Neal Barnett, where we dive into managing flight anxiety. Listen to Therapy for black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

[Danielle Robay]

You get your podcasts.

[Emily]

Let's talk about some of the key witnesses and some of the things that were brought up during this retrial.

[Bob Crawford]

Let me ask some basic questions. When was the first verdict again or the first lack of verdict?

[Emily]

You mean the mistrial? Yeah, it was last year.

[Bob Crawford]

So she had to go a year of waiting to be prosecuted again.

[Emily]

Again.

[Bob Crawford]

And then she had to go to a nearly, you know, a lengthy trial over a month. Man, now what's she gonna do?

[Emily]

Well, she has a civil suit against her still.

[Bob Crawford]

I mean, that's, that's nothing. That's nothing compared to going to prison.

[Emily]

Oh, yeah.

[Bob Crawford]

I mean, and the civil. Okay, we'll talk about it.

[Emily]

Yeah, let's get to the civil laters, but let's just go through some of, some of the testimony and some of the evidence in the retrial. Jennifer McCabe's testimony, who was a friend of O' Keefe and Reed, who was also in the home that night, she is a friend of both of them, but she is also the sister in law of Brian Albert, who owns the house. So defense attorneys say that Jen McCabe's text messages show she organized a cover up around how John O' Keefe wound up unconscious in the snow outside of 34 Fairview. Quote, Carrie talked to the cops and kept it simple. McCabe said in a text at about 8pm on January 29, 2022, the day O' Keeffe's body was found outside her sister Nicole Albert's home. Then Jen McCabe's sister responded, we'll get more info tomorrow. Don't want to text about it. In addition, Alan Jackson asked Jen McCabe why she didn't ask her brother in law Brian Albert, a police officer, for help given that he would have had first responder training and lived in the home. McCabe said she didn't think to go inside to get Brian Albert, find warm blankets or to check whether the Alberts were also in peril and that she was entirely focused on helping o'. Keeffe. I thought this was really great when, when Alan Jackson was cross examining her on the stand, she. He's cross examining Jen McCabe. Her brother in law and sister live inside the home where a dead man is found on their lawn. She knows that her brother in law is a cop and a first responder. She never goes to the house, she never knocks on the door. She never asked him to come outside to help to give cpr. She never goes into the house to investigate and see whether her brother in law and sister are okay or if something happened inside the house that she needs to check on. Why did she not do that?

[Bob Crawford]

Because the Boston Police Department taught her otherwise. Because that's why. It might not be the first body on this lawn, by the way.

[Emily]

Well, it's the first body on it. You mean the first body that anyone knows about on his lawn?

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah, exactly.

[Emily]

Brian Laughlin's testimony, he's the snowplow driver. I found his testimony very credible, very credible, very compelling.

[Bob Crawford]

He was that guy like knew everything. Like he was like the Snowplow guy for 35 years in that neighborhood or something ridiculous like that. Well, he, well, he was in the neighborhood for 35 years.

[Emily]

Yeah. I don't know how long he'd been a snowplow driver. However, his testimony was on point. It was concise.

[Bob Crawford]

He knew the properties, he was. He knew who lived there, he knew how long they. Like he was familiar with the neighborhood. It wasn't like he was just going up and down roads and following a map. Like he knew.

[Emily]

So Brian Laughlin was a snowplow driver. He's called to the stand to testify for the defense. Brian Lawren testified he did not see a body in the yard at 34 Fairview early in the morning on January 29, 2022. Despite passing by the house multiple times, law firm first drove the snowplow past the home between 2:40 and 2:45am Though it was dark and snowing hard. Lawrence testified he could clearly see the front door of the home. When asked, he saw on the lawn by the flagpole? Law firm responded, I saw nothing. Did you see a 6 foot 1, 216 pounds man lying on that lawn? Defense attorney David Ienetti asked. No, he said, I found his testimony to be very credible because he talked about specifically, he knew the route specifically, he knew the name of the streets, he knew the times specifically, he knew exactly what time he got there and checked out.

[Bob Crawford]

It was so natural. It was so, like, normal for him to respond. Respond. He didn't have to think like this was his routine.

[Emily]

And also, when you're talking about someone on a snowplow, it's not in a regular car, like he's sitting up high.

[Bob Crawford]

Well, no, I. I don't know. It could be. Was it a pickup truck snowplow or was it like.

[Emily]

No, they called it like Frankenstein or something because it was like kind of an older model and it was kind of put together.

[Bob Crawford]

It probably was just like a F250 or something.

[Emily]

I don't know. But I know he was sitting up high and I know that it was.

[Bob Crawford]

Well, which is high, is high.

[Emily]

And it was very well lit.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And that he's consistently on guard and looking left to right and scanning because he doesn't want to hit. He's on a big snowplow.

[Bob Crawford]

He doesn't want to plow anybody.

[Emily]

He doesn't want to plow any bodies over. So he has to be very, very careful and he has to be very alert and he has to be very aware of his surroundings. So the fact that this man did not see a body on the lawn between 2:40 and 2:45am when the prosecution has made it clear that she hit him at 1231, the body would have been there. All right, Sergeant Yuri Buchanik's testimony. He is a Massachusetts State police officer. He testified about the investigation and Reed's emergence as the suspect in o' Keefe's death. However, the misconduct of previous state trooper Michael Proctor, who was absent from the retrial, loomed heavily over his testimony. Now, we all know Michael Proctor was the investigator, the lead investigator in the first trial.

[Bob Crawford]

He was in this testimony, in this.

[Emily]

Trial because the prosecution did not want to call him, because he, he was. He was fired. He was let go from the police department for how he bungled the first case, how he didn't investigate it thoroughly. He had all those text messages, you know, with his friends, talking about Karen Reed, calling her. I don't know, what do you say? He said she was hot. And then he was like, talking about looking for Naked photos on her phone of her.

[Bob Crawford]

And he said, dollars at work here and goodness.

[Emily]

So he was. He was not brought back to testify. I'm sure the prosecution was hoping that everyone just forgot that he even existed.

[Bob Crawford]

Right. There was no former trial.

[Emily]

This is the first one. Michael Proctor. Never heard of him, though. Buchanik. Through Buchanik, prosecutors tried to minimize Proctor's influence in the investigation, while the defense held Proctor up as the lead investigator. Buchanik said each homicide case is a team effort. During cross examination, defense attorney Alan Jackson tried to restore the sense of Proctor's control over the case, showing Buchanik's investigative documents that carried Proctor's name or signature. Still, Buchanak refused to call Proctor, the lead investigator, referring to him as the case officer. Clearly, the reason he was on the stand is they're trying to take away the power from Michael Proctor and his. His name all over this case. Trooper Nicholas Guarino's testimony. He is also a Massachusetts State police officer. Guarino testified for the Commonwealth that Reed called O' Keefe more than 50 times and left eight voicemails between the time she said she dropped him off at 34 Fairview. And when she started searching for him the next morning, all the calls went unanswered. Quote, you're a effing pervert. She said in one voicemail left at 1:10am per Guarino's testimony. Seven minutes later, she left another. You're effing using me right now. You. You're effing another girl. You're a effing loser. F yourself. At 5:23am she left her seventh voicemail. John, where are you? You know, when I listen to these voicemails, because I've heard all of them. This is a woman who had no idea that a man was laying dead.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah.

[Emily]

On. In a yard.

[Bob Crawford]

Right.

[Emily]

Or else she's the best actress I've ever seen because her voicemails are a woman who is. Who has no idea where this man is.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And she thinks he's not coming home because he's having an affair with somebody in that house, and she is legitimately pissed off and wants to murder him.

[Bob Crawford]

I have a feeling you've made notes.

[Emily]

I felt.

[Bob Crawford]

I felt this is how I should leave my voicemails. I see. Very convincing.

[Emily]

So for me, when the prosecution is trying to use these voicemails to show that they had a strained relationship and that she, you know, that she was so mad that night that she revved her engine and, like, ran over him, to me, I Don't look at it that way. To me, I see those voicemails and the calls as someone who legitimately thinks that man is in the house having an affair with another woman, and she thinks that he's doing things and he's not coming home, and she's mad.

[Bob Crawford]

This whole thing is ridiculous because if you were going to commit a murder and you were going to run someone over or do something like that, it would never, ever in a million years cross my mind to think. Leave the dead body on the police officer's lawn. Yeah, because they. A real police officer, a team of police officers, would immediately start to preserve it, start to notify, start to do something to forward the investigation, and not just like, stay in the house.

[Emily]

Well, they stayed in there.

[Bob Crawford]

I know, I know, I know. In your. In your wildest dreams, would you ever thought, like, I'll leave this dead body on some. On this police officer's lawn, and then, like, no one will ever be able to figure out who killed him.

[Emily]

So you're saying if she legitimately hit him, she was mad and she. And he fell backwards and landed in the snow and she drove off?

[Bob Crawford]

Well, I'm just saying. And it's very. I don't know if it's irony, but to leave a dead body on a police officer's lawn and there's a bunch of police officers there and they still can't figure out who did it. That's. That's pretty weird.

[Emily]

Well, that's why this case is so compelling.

[Bob Crawford]

No, the cops are shady. Sorry.

[Emily]

The cops are shady.

[Bob Crawford]

I. I retract my judgment of Karen Reed in our first.

[Emily]

If you listen to our.

[Bob Crawford]

She is not guilty.

[Emily]

If you listen to our very, very first podcast we did on Karen Reed, this is before Shane had ever knew. Known anything about the case. Never even heard Karen Reed's name. And I just did a basic cursory overview of. Of the incidents that night. He kept saying, guilty, guilty, guilty. She's guilty, guilty, over and over and over.

[Bob Crawford]

Not guilty. But now not guilty. Now the police department's guilty.

[Emily]

Now he has.

[Bob Crawford]

Wait. Are they going to prosecute the police officers?

[Emily]

I doubt it.

[Bob Crawford]

Why? They have just as much evidence on them as they did her, which is nothing.

[Emily]

That's what's. So put them through the crap that.

[Bob Crawford]

They put her through.

[Emily]

That's what's so compelling, yet completely sad about this case is I don't think there will ever be any justice for John o' Keefe or his mom or the children. You know, he was raising his niece and nephew because their parents had died and these children lost their mother and father and have now lost their uncle who was raising them. And, you know, his mom sat in court every day, his family's there. And at the end of the day, I, I, the jury got it right. She should have been acquitted. But it's sad.

[Bob Crawford]

It is. There's, yeah, a lot of people are affected. It's not just he dies, which is sad enough as it is, but all the people around him that are affected, and then all the unanswered questions and just not knowing what happened in his last moments of his life.

[Emily]

Nicholas Barros, who is part, he's a sergeant for the Dighton Police, was called by the defense to refute the Commonwealth's narrative about Reed's taillight being broken when it allegedly collided with o'. Keefe. The defense has tried to raise the specter of the tail light being tampered with after police seized the vehicle and suggested its pieces were planted at the scene. Well, if you remember, if you go back, remember we talked about before when they initially did a search and they found John's body, There were no pieces of the tail light found in that initial search.

[Bob Crawford]

Well, that, that's what was declared.

[Emily]

Right. Then they went back, I think, that evening and did another search. And during that search, all of a sudden they found like 42 pieces of.

[Bob Crawford]

A tail light, which is an insane amount of tail light.

[Emily]

Right. Burrows responded on January 29, 2022, to Reed's parents home in Dighton, Massachusetts, at Proctor's request to help seize the vehicle. Reed went there after it was confirmed that o' Keefe had died. In a report, Baros noted that that there was damage to a tail light, but he suggested on the stand it was relatively minor. There was a piece missing, but it was not completely damaged. He was shown a photograph of the tail light after it was seized. Burrow said it did not reflect what he saw that day. That tail light is completely smashed out, he said.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah, I remember thinking that that many pieces sounds like it looks like someone smashed it with a hammer.

[Emily]

I know. I thought the same thing because I even thought if she had backed into him with a, a, with her tail light, I feel like when a tail light hit a body, it wouldn't have smashed into so many tiny enough forensic.

[Bob Crawford]

Files to know, like, it's usually just a handful of pieces.

[Emily]

All right, so there was so many more things that went on in this trial. It was completely interesting, compelling. I know people were glued to their screens every day watching Court TV we clearly can't go through all of it, but we're going to get to the closing statements. I actually watched Alan Jackson's closing statement twice. It was about an hour and a half long. Because when you talk about closing statements, this is really where you have the opportunity to. This is the finale. This is where you take everything and you want to persuade the jury, you want them to see it from your perspective. It's really your last act. It's your last chance to convince them. It's your last chance to build rapport with them. And so I thought he did an excellent job.

[Bob Crawford]

How long was it?

[Emily]

It was an hour and a half.

[Bob Crawford]

You watch TV for three hours, though?

[Emily]

Well, I didn't watch it back to back. I watched an hour and a half and then the following night I watched it again.

[Bob Crawford]

But let's be clear, you don't bring in new evidence.

[Emily]

You don't bring in new evidence.

[Bob Crawford]

You can only reiterate the evidence that was presented. And you can't, an attorney can't bring in their own opinions to anything.

[Emily]

Right.

[Bob Crawford]

And they, and they can't do things to make. What was it like? Make the. Something about making the jurors feel a certain way. Like you can't ask about their feelings or try to make them feel a certain way. You just, it's just evidence.

[Emily]

Yeah. Well, let me ask you a question. Can the prosecution object during closing statements when the defense.

[Bob Crawford]

I don't know if the, if the objection is the same formality, but if the defense is bringing in new evidence, I mean, definitely got to stop that. Yeah, that's probably grounds for a mistrial.

[Emily]

Well, it's, you can't object during closing arguments, but it has to be to the level of like, it's so egregious it would sway the jury or, or it would be harmful to the case. So there were no objections. During his closing statement, Jackson went first, telling the jury three times right away, there was no collision in the death of John o'. Keefe. This case was corrupted from the start. It was corrupted by a legal investigator whose misconduct infected every single part of this case from top to bottom. Alluding to Michael Proctor was, did he.

[Bob Crawford]

Have the position that she is, she did not commit the crime or did he have the position. Was he emphasizing that there was not enough evidence?

[Emily]

No, he, his position was it was not her, that it was a cover up, that he was beat up in the house by these officers, the dog was somehow involved and attacked him, and then they drug his body.

[Bob Crawford]

That could have been another way Obviously, I would defer to Alan Jackson to probably know what's best, but the other.

[Emily]

Way, I would defer to Alan Jackson on anything.

[Bob Crawford]

Okay, thank you for that.

[Emily]

I'd be like, stop talking. I need to ask Alan Jackson.

[Bob Crawford]

Stop talking, you butterfly. All right, whatever. You. You don't. I was trying to get at that. His position was she didn't do it. Not. There's not enough evidence.

[Emily]

No. His position was that she did not do it. And it was the corruptness that went on that evening. It was a conspiracy.

[Bob Crawford]

What's the community going to think about the police department? I'd be nervous if I was in that area.

[Emily]

I don't know. I've debated shady as it gets, just based upon the DMS I get on my Instagram account. People rallied around her and think that this police department is completely corrupt and there's some other case with another woman. I can't remember the name. That several people have DM me that said that's basically kind of mirrors the same thing, and it has to do with the Boston Police Department. I'll have to look into that.

[Bob Crawford]

Wonderful.

[Emily]

If the Massachusetts State Police can't trust him, how can you trust him with this investigation, with your verdict, and with Aaron Reed's life? Jackson said the lead investigator in a murder trial was never called to testify. Think about that. That should stop you in your tracks. Wouldn't you want to hear from Michael Proctor?

[Bob Crawford]

See, I was right. That's what I was thinking.

[Emily]

Wouldn't you want to hear from the lead investigator in this case?

[Bob Crawford]

Yes.

[Emily]

Yeah, that's what I said. The prosecution did not scrub them. Yes. They were hoping that we just all forgot that.

[Bob Crawford]

Probably dumped on some lawn somewhere.

[Emily]

Their investigator was corrupted from the start by bias and personal loyalties. Jackson said not a single medical expert called by the defense or called by the Commonwealth has testified that John was hit by a car. Not one. Think about the irony. Not one. It's not just significant. It's literally the most important point in the entire trial. He made that point. He made it well. The medical examiners that testified would never take the position that there was an impact site from a vehicle. He had a contusion on the back of his head. He had black eyes. He had a cut over his eye, and his right arm was scraped up and had puncture wounds. But no one would testify that he was hit by a vehicle because they.

[Bob Crawford]

Said that he wasn't hit by a vehicle.

[Emily]

Right. Remember Mr. Brennan's opening statement? He made some promises to you. He said, this case is about the data. He stressed it over and over again. They've had three and a half years to get this right. The Commonwealth has had this case for three and a half years to get it right. Jackson went on to talk about there being no evidence John was hit by a car. This is a central fact in the case. The only fact that matters is literally uncontested by every medical expert. Uncontested, undisputed. There is no evidence that John was hit by a car. None. How much more reasonable doubt could there be?

[Bob Crawford]

There's doubt all around. There's even doubt with the police officers. Really. There's not enough legal evidence to. For me to feel comfortable saying they should be convicted.

[Emily]

And, you know, at the opening of this. Okay, go ahead.

[Bob Crawford]

They did it. The police officers.

[Emily]

You think the police officers.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah. Well, guilty.

[Emily]

So what happened to Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to.

[Bob Crawford]

There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond and.

[Emily]

Left a woman behind to drown. There's a famous headline, I think, in the New York Daily News, it's teddy Escapes, Blonde Drowns. And in a strange way, right, that sort of tells you the story really became about Ted's political future, Ted's political hopes. Will Ted become President?

[Bob Crawford]

Kappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control.

[Emily]

And he's not the only Kennedy to survive a scandal.

[Bob Crawford]

The Kennedys have lived through disgrace, affairs, violence, you name it. So is there a curse? Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family.

[Emily]

Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Bob Crawford]

American history is full of wise people.

[Emily]

Walt Whitman said something like 99.99% of.

[Bob Crawford]

War is diarrhea and 1% is.

[Emily]

Those founding fathers were gossipy AF, and they loved to cut each other down.

[Bob Crawford]

I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, the show where you send us your questions about American history. And I find the answers, including the nuggets of wisdom our history has to offer. Hamilton pauses, and then he says, the greatest man that ever lived was Julius Caesar. And Jefferson writes in his diary, this proves that Hamilton is for a dictator based on corruption. My favorite line was what Neil Armstrong said. It would have been harder to fake it than to do it. Listen to American History Hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danielle Robay]

Just like great shoes Great books take you places through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.

[Emily]

I think any romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies.

[Danielle Robay]

I'm Danielle Robaix and this is bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from hello Sunshine and I Heart Podcasts. Every week I sit down with your favorite book lovers, authors, celebrities, book talkers and more to explore the stories that shape us on the page and off. I've been reading every Reese's Book Club pick, deep diving booktok theories and obsessing over book to screen casts for years. And now I get to talk to the people making the magic. So if you've ever fallen in love with a fictional character, or cried at the last chapter, or passed a book to a friend saying you have to read this, this podcast is for you. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Emily]

From.

[Danielle Robay]

Iheart Podcasts and Rococo Punch. This is the Turning River Road.

[Emily]

I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult.

[Danielle Robay]

Leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse.

[Emily]

Why did I think that way? Why did I allow myself to get so sucked in by this man and and thinking to the point that if I died for him, that would be the greatest honor? But in 2014, the youngest of the.

[Danielle Robay]

Girls escaped and sparked an international manhunt.

[Emily]

For all those years, you know, he was the predator and I was the prey. And then he became the prey.

[Danielle Robay]

Listen to the Turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

[Emily]

You get your podcast.

[Danielle Robay]

Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness, the way it has echoed and reverberated throughout your life, impacting your very legacy. Hi, I'm Dani Shapiro and these are just a few of the profound and powerful stories I'll be mining on our 12th season of Family Secrets. With over 37 million downloads, we continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. I can't wait to share 10 powerful new episodes with you. Stories of tangled up identities, concealed truths, and the way in which family secrets almost always need to be told. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets secrets. Listen to Family Secrets Season 12 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Emily]

Let's just go into. Just to have a little legal knowledge, a little legal background, what exactly. Beyond a reasonable doubt. And when he does his opening statement, he tells them what beyond a reasonable doubt means. And it's not just beyond a reasonable doubt and to a moral certainty are the phrases used in legal context, particularly in criminal trials, to describe the standard of proof required for a conviction.

[Bob Crawford]

I don't know. I don't get it. So what's the difference?

[Emily]

They're the same. It's beyond a reasonable doubt and to a moral certainty.

[Bob Crawford]

Does the. And to a moral certainty actually add any other.

[Emily]

No, they. It's the same standard, but I think it's just another way to say it. But I think when you add moral certainty in there, I feel like it makes it more clear. Because reasonable doubt, the word doubt, it's like.

[Bob Crawford]

It's like you can shrug your shoulders, like.

[Emily]

But when you talk about a moral.

[Bob Crawford]

Certainty, you feel good about this. Exactly. Gonna feel good about sending him or her to jail.

[Emily]

Exactly. Like when you lay your head down at night to sleep, knowing that that woman is going to go to jail. Are you okay with that? Are you okay to a moral certainty that the decision you're making?

[Bob Crawford]

Well, I think the Boston Police Department needs to hire people with a moral certainty. Yeah. You know, I. I have a little beef with you.

[Emily]

Why are you.

[Bob Crawford]

You asked me the other day what moral certainty meant. I said, I bet you it's just language that that jurisdiction uses. And now you're. And you said, no, no, no. And now you're telling me what. It's really just language that they use.

[Emily]

Well, because I looked it up.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Because I don't. Because you're not Alan Jackson.

[Bob Crawford]

No.

[Emily]

So I had to go.

[Bob Crawford]

But I'm no butterfly. I was correct.

[Emily]

You were correct at the time. All right.

[Bob Crawford]

I still cracked.

[Emily]

Okay. Alan Jackson goes on to say in his. In his closing statement, you have a man lying dead in the yard. And here are the undisputed facts that those officers were confronted with. With black eyes, obviously. Black eyes are consistent with a fight. Bloody nose also consistent with a fight. Bleeding from the face consistent with a physical altercation. A cut over the right eye consistent with a punch. No coat in the freezing cold. Not dress for outside, dress for inside. And one shoe on. I wonder where the other shoe could be. I don't know. Maybe in the house 30ft away. This was one of my favorite parts of his closing statement, was actually when he Said all of that. I thought that was just. He just really hit it home. That was a home run to me. When he said, look at this body laying in this front yard. All of the. All of the physical issues with his body are all consistent with a fight. And also, he has no coat on and he's got a missing shoe.

[Bob Crawford]

It doesn't track. Where could they be?

[Emily]

Where could those things be? I don't know. Maybe in the house. And the fact that the house was never considered a crime scene. It was never taped off, it was never searched, it was never investigated. There was never, you know, pulled from the house.

[Bob Crawford]

Very least, that is. That is negligence on the police. They fell below. That is standard duty of. I mean, you're telling me a man.

[Emily]

Died in a lawn on a. In front of a house and his shoes missing and he doesn't have a coat on and he's beat up in the yard and no one investigated inside the house to see. Is there any blood inside the house? House?

[Bob Crawford]

Oh, yeah.

[Emily]

Is there. Is there anything broken in the house?

[Bob Crawford]

Is there a shoe here somewhere?

[Emily]

Is his shoe in the house? I mean, it's unreal to me.

[Bob Crawford]

No.

[Emily]

I wonder where the other shoe could be. He says, I don't know, maybe in the house 30ft away. And then you find a broken and shattered drinking glass next to him. The type of glass that you might find. I don't know. Let me think about this. In a kitchen, in a house 30ft away.

[Bob Crawford]

But wait, didn't. Didn't she say she dropped him off with a cocktail?

[Emily]

You know, she did say that they had, like, a roadie or something. And so that was the other thing. Like, where did the shard of glass come from? Was it from the cocktail glass that he was carrying, or did he go in the house and have a drink? This is why this investigation is awful. Why do you.

[Bob Crawford]

Because they could have gone inside the house and looked at the kitchen. Say you have the same signature drinking glasses that was found outside with the dead body. Oh, and look in the shoe closet. Look what I found.

[Emily]

The shoe closet. Right. As for testimony that Reed said I hit him when she found O' Keefe the next morning, Jackson said Sgt. Buchanik also testified that the only statement Karen Reed made at the scene, according to his conversations with the first responders, was, could I have hit him? Did I hit him? It wasn't a confession. It was confusion. I agree with that.

[Bob Crawford]

And you know what?

[Emily]

That.

[Bob Crawford]

That tracks with her OBD2 sensor that said she went 24 miles an hour.

[Emily]

Back Wait, what was it? Say it again.

[Bob Crawford]

The OBD2 sensor. Yes.

[Emily]

Shane was our. Shane is our vehicular mechanic specialist.

[Bob Crawford]

No, but didn't it. Didn't they have evidence that she went backwards 24 miles an hour? So maybe she was like, oh, my gosh, I hit him. Like, maybe her first thought was, he's on the lawn where I left him with a drink and I sped off. Did I hit him? I mean, those are probably some thoughts that ran through her head. I mean, her boyfriend's dead. No one says anything that's reasonable when you find a dead body.

[Emily]

Right, Right. And she already didn't sleep the entire night because she called him 50 times and left him seven voicemails, yelling at him and calling him an effing pervert because she thinks he's having an affair with someone else. So this woman clearly is outside of her mind. She has no idea what's going on. She finds him lying in the grass, dead on the lawn. And it makes sense to me that she could have rambled something. Like, did I.

[Bob Crawford]

Who knows what happened correctly? All I know is you find a dead body, don't say anything.

[Emily]

Well, first of all, if she. If she did hit him, the last thing she's going to say is, I hit him. I hit him.

[Bob Crawford]

I hit him. No, that's right.

[Emily]

I mean, give me a break.

[Bob Crawford]

A reasonable murderer wouldn't admit that, right? The person.

[Emily]

No, she would. She just would. She'd be like, I don't know how he got there. We are after the truth in this courtroom. You're entitled to it. Demand it. Jackson said, let your voice be heard, not in whispers, but in truth. Let the community feel through your verdict that justice cannot be bent and that it will not be buried. Fine. Karen Reed. Not guilty. Not guilty. Not guilty.

[Bob Crawford]

And Elk has three charges. Did she have three charges?

[Emily]

Well, she had three charges, and I feel like he was playing on the. I hit him. I hit him, I hit him is what they claim, that she said it three times.

[Bob Crawford]

So very cute. It worked.

[Emily]

All right, Hank Brennan, who was the special prosecutor, he does his closing. Prosecutor Hank Brennan addressed the jury saying about Reed, quote, she was drunk, she hit him, then she left him to die. Now, the government doesn't have to prove that she was drunk. It's either she's over the legal limit.08, or she had enough alcohol to affect her ability to operate a motor. Motor vehicle safely. You will know she was far beyond the legal limit after the retrograde analysis. Almost two to three times the legal limit, he says. And Alan Jackson's closing. He talks about the tail light fragments, and he claims that. So the prosecution claims that according to the data on the car, whatever you called it, that the impact happened at 12:31. Then when she left the scene, her wi fi connected at John's house because she left and went to John's house, and it connected at 12:36. So if he was hit at 12:31, and they claim that the tail light was shattered all over the lawn, and they also claim that the bulb part was shattered, the actual light bulb was shattered, then that tail light would not have lit up later after the fact. And Alan Jackson, you know, and you have to.

[Bob Crawford]

Sorry, but you have to hit. That means he had to have penetrated the tail light cover and then as far into it as the. The taillight housing to crack the bulb.

[Emily]

Right.

[Bob Crawford]

I mean, I'm just saying that's a big impact. Maybe that happens a lot, but that's. That's a lot of impact.

[Emily]

Right. And.

[Bob Crawford]

Sorry, I interrupted you.

[Emily]

No, it's okay. But no, and I agree with what you're saying. And the whole point is then Alan Jackson showed up on the screen to the jury images of that tail light being lit up at 5am in the morning. And then I think. And there was a second time when it was lit. Well, they captured like, ring footage of her, of the car, like, being driven.

[Bob Crawford]

Well, after the 12, I'm sure they addressed it.

[Emily]

Impact point.

[Bob Crawford]

I'm sure they addressed it. But then I would have questions of like, well, are there three bulbs or. There are two, and one was cracked. And I'm sure they already addressed that. But. But that is interesting that her light was still functioning.

[Emily]

Right. I thought that was very interesting. And then there was another thing. I know we talked about the medical examiner. Sorry, I keep going backwards because there was so much in his closing and, and this whole trial. But the other thing that I found really compelling as well was that when the medical examiners for the defense and the prosecution, when you're talking about the injuries to his arm, if his arm, which was supposed to be the impact site, because that's where that's like his forearm. It was his right arm, and that's where the scratches and the puncture wounds were. So, you know, the prosecution is claiming he was hit by a car, her suv, going backwards. The car scratched him and punctured him with, like, teeth marks. But, okay, the, the compelling part to me is that these medical recreate, you know, people recreate scenes and hitting a car going backwards and hitting an arm. At 24 mph, the arm would have been damaged, it would have been bruised, ligaments would have been torn, bones.

[Bob Crawford]

I mean, if I broke scratches on my forearm and then someone says, how'd you get that? I go, oh, I was hit by a car.

[Emily]

An suv. Yeah.

[Bob Crawford]

In the snow. People would be like, what? No, you didn't.

[Emily]

Right. I mean, so it. The. The injuries on his arm were inconsistent with being hit by an SUV going backwards at 24 miles per hour. I mean, 24 miles per hour is. That's fast.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah, that's fast.

[Emily]

That's fast backwards. That's fast backwards.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And you hit an arm, your arm's gonna be bruised, it's going to be torn up, you're gonna have broken bones, you're gonna have torn ligaments. And none of that was consistent with the injuries on his arm. All right, back to Hank Brennan. He proceeded to play a clip from one of Reed's TV interviews for the jury in which she said, I shouldn't have been driving. She did say that, and I did watch this, and I remember thinking, I don't know if that was so smart for her to do that documentary. You know, the documentary I watched, it was like five parts. It was called A Body in the Snow. And it was basically following her first trial. And she did a lot of interviews, and there were several times when I thought. Thought, I don't know if she should have said that. And they use.

[Bob Crawford]

Why? Why shouldn't she have said that?

[Emily]

Because she did say, I, I drank too much. I. I was overserved, I drank too much alcohol, I was drunk. I shouldn't have been drunk. I mean, she.

[Bob Crawford]

Therefore, she says, discredits her memory.

[Emily]

She says things to me that I thought were self incriminating that she probably shouldn't have been saying, but.

[Bob Crawford]

Well, but maybe her thing is, I'm being honest. I'm telling you, that's everything that happened. Yeah, I did drink, but I didn't run them over.

[Emily]

Brennan. So Hank Brennan also emphasized that o' Keefe and Reed's relationship was not healthy and nearing its end. The relationship is almost over. The tensions are simmering beneath the surface. They are not getting along. So fast forward that night, after the discord, after the arguing, they go out. What do they do? They drink. And they drink a lot. Brennan explained. He then focused on the moments when o' Keefe got out of Reed's SUV that night. It's the first time he has moved since they got to the flagpole, and it will be the last time he moves in his life, Brennan said. Brennan then explained to the jury why Reid is charged with second degree murder. Quote, it sounds ominous. It is. It's a serious charge, second degree murder. When most people think murder, they think shooting or stabbing somebody. It's natural to think that. However, second degree murder is different. I told you at the beginning of this case, I told you that we were not going to suggest. To try to prove that Ms. Reed intended to kill John O'. Keefe. That was never part of this case. We're not claiming that, that. I told you that we were not ever going to prove that she even intended to hit him. We never suggested we would try to prove that, and we are not trying to prove that she intended to hit him. Brennan said there was an eyewitness, there was a guide, and that eyewitness tells us that she knew. And that eyewitness is Karen Reed herself. She tells you that she knew, Brennan said, before playing another video clip from the Reed TV interview. Could I have hit him? Did I hit him? Reed said in the video, I didn't think I hit him, but could I have clipped him? Again, we talked about this earlier, but I feel like you're right. She's being vulnerable, she's being honest, and she's saying that's. That was what was going through my mind when I found him dead on the lawn.

[Bob Crawford]

Was that documentary done after her first trial?

[Emily]

It was done during.

[Bob Crawford]

During her first trial.

[Emily]

During the preparation for her first trial.

[Bob Crawford]

Oh, okay. So just prior to the trial.

[Emily]

I think it was pr. I think it was prior to the trial because I remember there were lots of scenes of them and what they called the war room. And that was when she was meeting with Alan James Jackson and. And Michael Yanetti and they were going over. It showed her getting arrested, it showed her going to jail, and then it showed her being on house arrest, being at home preparing for the first trial. There were a lot of good idea.

[Bob Crawford]

Why would she do a documentary like that? I wonder if her attorneys that thought that would get some public support or something.

[Emily]

Well, that was something I was thinking about on my way home before we recorded this podcast. And I thought, I wonder why. Because Alan Jackson is brilliant. I wonder why he thought it was a good idea. But then I thought what you just said, maybe it was the balance. If you balance. Okay, so she maybe says some things that don't look great, but she's just being herself. Maybe the. The public support that she garnered from that was worth more than, you know, if she misspoke or. I don't know, I mean, I don't really feel like, I mean, is it self incrimination when she said that, or is it her just being honest and authentic about that night and saying, I don't know, did I hit. He's. I found him dead on the lawn. So I don't know. I mean, you could look at it from a jury perspective that she's the more honest of the two sides.

[Bob Crawford]

I don't know, it's what a, what a mess. I mean, she, she's gonna have more like docu interviews and.

[Emily]

Oh, yeah, she's gonna, yeah.

[Bob Crawford]

Do you follow her on Instagram?

[Emily]

Do I follow her on Instagram?

[Bob Crawford]

No, I don't have an Instagram following.

[Emily]

I don't. You know, I, I, I don't even follow Alan Jackson. I don't know how that happened, but I don't know.

[Bob Crawford]

You like him?

[Emily]

I just, I feel like he's, I, I, my hero. Like, other people might think like, rock stars or like actors are their heroes. Mine's like Alan Jackson and Brian Friedman. Yeah. Like, those are the people that I like. I'm like, huh? I would fangirl over Alan Jackson, but not like Brad Pitt, but Alan Jackson. Yes.

[Bob Crawford]

I get you a cameo from Brian Friedman and Alan Jackson.

[Emily]

Do you think he's on, do you think they're on cameo?

[Bob Crawford]

I don't know. They might be after this for people like you, maybe.

[Emily]

So what happened to Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to.

[Bob Crawford]

There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond and.

[Emily]

Left a woman behind to drown. There's a famous headline, I think, in the New York Daily News. It's teddy Escapes Blonde Drowns. And in a strange way, right, that sort of tells you the story really became about Ted's political future, Ted's political hopes. Will Ted become president?

[Bob Crawford]

Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control.

[Emily]

And he's not the only Kennedy to survive a scandal.

[Bob Crawford]

The Kennedys have lived through disgrace, affairs, violence, you name it. So is there a curse? Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's race. Royal family.

[Emily]

Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Bob Crawford]

American history is full of wise people.

[Emily]

Walt Whitman said something like, you know.

[Bob Crawford]

99.99% of war is diarrhea and 1% is glory.

[Emily]

Those founding fathers were gossipy AF and they loved to cut each other down.

[Bob Crawford]

I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, the show where you send us your questions about American history and I find the answers, including the nuggets of wisdom our history has to offer. Hamilton pauses and then he says, the greatest man that ever lived was Julius Caesar. And Jefferson writes in his diary, this proves that Hamilton is for a dictator based on corruption. My favorite line was what Neil Armstrong said. It would have been harder to fake it than to do it. Listen to American History Hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danielle Robay]

Just like great shoes, great books take you places through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.

[Emily]

I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies.

[Danielle Robay]

I'm Danielle Roubaix and this is bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart podcasts. Every week I sit down with your favorite book lovers, authors, celebrities, book talkers and more to explore the stories that shape us on the page and off. I've been reading every Reese's Book Club pick, deep diving booktok theories and obsessing over book to screen casts for years. And now I get to talk to the people making the magic. So if you've ever fallen in love with a fictional character or cried at the last chapter or passed a book to a friend saying you have to read this, this podcast is for you. Listen to bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Emily]

From, iheart Podcasts and Rococo Punch.

[Danielle Robay]

This is the Turning River Road.

[Emily]

I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult.

[Danielle Robay]

Leader married himself to 10 girls and.

[Emily]

Forced them into a secret life of abuse. Why did I think that way? Why did I allow myself to get so sucked in by this man and and thinking to the point that if I died for him, that would be the greatest honor?

[Danielle Robay]

But in 2014, the youngest of the girls escaped and sparked an international manhunt.

[Emily]

For all those years, you know, he was the predator and I was the prey. And then he became the prey.

[Danielle Robay]

Listen to the Turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

[Emily]

You get your podcast.

[Danielle Robay]

Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness. The way it has echoed and reverberated throughout your life, impacting your very legacy. Hi, I'm Dani Shapiro and these are just a few of the profound and powerful stories I'll be mining on our 12th season of Family Secret. With over 37 million downloads, we continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. I can't wait to share 10 powerful new episodes with you. Stories of tangled up identities, concealed truths, and the way in which family secrets almost always need to be told. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets. Listen to Family Secrets, Season 12 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Emily]

Brennan also addressed one of Jackson's major points on Friday, why Trooper Proctor didn't take the stand in his trial. After he testified in the first one, he was terminated. He set a penalty. He was held responsible for what he did. He should have been. We don't, we don't need Trooper Proctor in this case. We don't need Trooper, Trooper Proctor to prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt. Brennan concluded his argument by showing the jury a photo of John o'. Keefe. He is not an it. John o' Keefe is not a body. John o' Keefe was not a buffalo on a prairie. John o' Keefe was a person and he was murdered by Karen Reed. Clearly, all the prosecution has is to play to the jury's heart and say.

[Bob Crawford]

This, crossing their fingers, hoping that they don't look at the evidence and find her guilty. Because she's.

[Emily]

Don't forget that this is a man. This is a, a human. So do the right thing and find her guilty.

[Bob Crawford]

Well, she's also a woman and a human. I mean, you can't throw them to jail. What about you? You mentioned earlier, like, 12:31 is when they blew, the impact took place. And 12:36 is when she hit the.

[Emily]

WI fi is when she connected to John.

[Bob Crawford]

Five minutes. How far apart are the home? Okay, yeah. So that, that tracks. That makes sense then.

[Emily]

Yeah, it, it does. But what, what happened though, is when they clocked her or they, they claim that she hit him at 12:31, the prosecution really buried themselves or what is it, paint yourself into a corner when you do something like that? His phone was still warm at 12:31, as opposed to, like, it wasn't laying in the snow. I believe they said it only takes 15 minutes for your phone to go from warm to like, if it's in freezing temperatures to where it shuts off. It's like A very small window of time. So if his body had been laying in the Snow starting at 12:31, his phone would have shut off.

[Bob Crawford]

I don't know. There's so many holes in this thing.

[Emily]

I know.

[Bob Crawford]

It's unbelievable that they even tried her. It's embarrassing. It's a waste of everyone's time and money.

[Emily]

It is. And it's a. First of all to think of what she had to go through, the money she has to spend to, to defend herself. The fact. Well, I know she had a. I, I, I've read.

[Bob Crawford]

Well, she had like a GoFundMe or something.

[Emily]

She did. And I think a lot of people supported her because they were so, you know, she had the public behind her so much, much. But she also had to, I read like she cashed out her 401. She doesn't work.

[Bob Crawford]

You know, she also, I think she mortgage.

[Emily]

I think she either sold her house or she had to get a second mortgage on her house. I mean she's completely financially depleted herself to have to defend herself in this.

[Bob Crawford]

The moral of the story, shouldn't drink.

[Emily]

Okay, that's definitely.

[Bob Crawford]

Shouldn't over drink.

[Emily]

Yeah. But if she, here's the thing though. Her, if, if he was murdered inside the house and then drug out onto the lawn, it makes no difference whether she drank or not know.

[Bob Crawford]

Well, she might have a better memory. She might be more credible. She might not have ran him over. No, I'm just kidding. I don't know. A lot of things could have happened if she was, you know, not.

[Emily]

You mean. So you're saying if she was, if she did not drink at all and she was completely clear of mind, she might have seen him actually go into the house and had a clear.

[Bob Crawford]

I mean, I, I'm just making a general statement that it's, I mean, she drank and drove and I just don't, I don't find any forgiveness that. So now she's in a mess.

[Emily]

Yeah. But I, Again, the alternative argument is did the drinking make any difference?

[Bob Crawford]

No, the cops did. Should be called. What was that documentary?

[Emily]

A body in the Snow.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah, it should be a body drug out and dumped in the snow by police officers on their lawn. Yes.

[Emily]

Okay. All right. So then after they give their closing statements, the jury goes to deliberations. There was an amended verdict slip slipped. Judge Beverly Canon, everybody calls her Aunt Bev on TikTok. She does not have a large fan base at all. Gave jurors a revised verdict slipped on Tuesday afternoon following confusion from the panel about the first slip. They were given, which prompted a question to be sent to the judge. The slip concerns the second of three charges Reed faces in the death of John o', Keefe. Manslaughter while operating under the influence. That charge, at the request of Reed's defense, carries a number of lesser included counts for which the jury could either convict or acquit Reid. The new slip distributed to the media Wednesday morning contains clarifying language for the jury telling the four person to, quote, stop and sign. The verdict slipped, end quote. After each lesser included charge, if they find Reed guilty, jurors can convict her of any of the lesser included charges or acquit her of each charge, including manslaughter. So I believe what the jurors were asking, so they needed an amended jury slip, was to break it down better. They didn't understand if, like, she was acquitted of some of the higher charges and maybe not the lesser charges, if that was still considered a hung jury. So they needed more clarifying basic jury.

[Bob Crawford]

Instructions on the charges. And.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah, and I know that they did come back and ask, if she's acquitted of the two higher charges but not the third charge, would that still be considered a hunger or a mistrial? And then she said she couldn't answer that because it was a theoretical question.

[Bob Crawford]

Right. Because then. Because I'm, I'm guessing. But then the, the judge thinking, I can't answer that question because if I give you an answer that might sway you exactly how you like, oh, you know, well, it'll be a hung trial or hung jury, and we don't want that again. So we'll find her guilty.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Crawford]

Or the other way around.

[Emily]

So she couldn't answer that Anyway. All right, so we get a verdict. Verdict. Finally. That happened just, like two hours ago. After more than 30 days of testimony and four days of deliberation, jurors found Reed not guilty of second degree murder, manslaughter while operating a motor vehicle under the influence and leaving the scene of a collision resulting in death. But she was found guilty of a very lesser offense of operating a vehicle under the influence with a blood alcohol level of 0.8% or greater. She is sentenced to a year of probation. Basically, it was a huge win for her.

[Bob Crawford]

Was that, was that. That based on just her testimony that she was drunk?

[Emily]

No, they had, they had a.

[Bob Crawford]

They test her the next morning or something?

[Emily]

I don't. I believe so, but they had, they did a whole.

[Bob Crawford]

A blood test analysis compared to what she was up against?

[Emily]

Oh, absolutely. She's like, I'll take. I'll Take a. I'll take a dui, or this was called a oui. Operating under influence. I mean, she'll do a year of probation, and then she gets to go on with her life. However, there still is a pending civil suit with the o' Keefe family against her for wrong.

[Bob Crawford]

They actually filed a suit already?

[Emily]

They did. And they actually stayed the suit while she was doing the criminal trial. Why don't they sue the freaking cops, too? Well, here's my question, and let's talk about this.

[Bob Crawford]

He was dead on your lawn. You didn't do anything, and you destroyed all the evidence in your house. Give me my shoe back.

[Emily]

So give me my shoe back. So they filed a civil suit against her before the second retrial for wrongful death. Then that suit was stayed while she was doing her criminal trial because she couldn't do the civil trial and the criminal trial, plus you can't do a civil trial. And then they take your testimony from the civil trial, use it against you on your criminal trial anyway. So that was stayed. Now that her criminal trial is over, the civil trial will proceed. But here is my question. If you are John o' Keeffe's family and you're the ones that filed the civil suit before this latest, latest retrial, and you sat in court every single day and you listened to all the evidence and the testimony, and then the jury comes back with their decision that she's not guilty. And the entire world that's watching this is saying she's not guilty. Free Karen Reed. How do you continue on with the civil suit for wrongful death at this point, are you not completely pissed with the system? How do you go forward with the civil suit against Karen Reed? I feel like they need to withdraw the suit. You mean they.

[Bob Crawford]

They should. They should have. They should understand that she didn't do it? Is that what you're saying?

[Emily]

I'm saying they sat in court every single day.

[Bob Crawford]

But are you suggesting that they should be based on everything they saw and witnessed and participated in and all that took place? They should be of the position of, okay, I guess she didn't do it, so we don't want to sue her. Is that what you mean?

[Emily]

Yes, I'm saying.

[Bob Crawford]

And she doesn't have any money anyway. She spent it all on.

[Emily]

Yeah, I'm saying, how do you go forward with this wrongful death suit against Karen Reed when you sat in court every day and you heard all of the tests?

[Bob Crawford]

Well, let's. Let's be clear for listeners. The standard in a Civil suit to find a verdict is different than the standard in a criminal.

[Emily]

It is lesser. Yes.

[Bob Crawford]

Yes. It is a preponderance of the evidence, which means just tipping the scale.

[Emily]

It's a 51%.

[Bob Crawford]

Right. So it had. Had Karen been found guilty, the civil suit would be much easier because you're like, she's already guilty.

[Emily]

It would be.

[Bob Crawford]

And now she's not guilty. So now they have to prove, beyond a preponderance of the evidence or whatever.

[Emily]

Percent. You have to tip the scale. Yeah, but here's my point. I feel like it's just a moral issue at this point. Like, you sat in court and you heard all this testimony about how corrupt this police department was, how no one investigated the house, how the Brian Albert and. And Brian Higgins both got rid of.

[Bob Crawford]

Their cell phone and their dog.

[Emily]

And the dog.

[Bob Crawford]

And then they like, like, redo the flooring.

[Emily]

And they did. Yes. And the house was sold and the ring footage across the street was deleted or wasn't available. And nobody.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah, she's looking.

[Emily]

She's.

[Bob Crawford]

She is looking the wrong way or they're looking the wrong way by going after Karen. I know that.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Crawford]

But sometimes it's just a money grab, and sometimes it's just a stubbornness of, you know, they want someone to be held accountable. And I can get that.

[Emily]

Well, I understand that, but I'm just saying they filed it before the retrial. So I'm saying after sitting in court for. For 30 days, I'm watching all this testimony. I feel like they need to withdraw the civil suit and go after the. The real perpetrators here, the corruption, the police department, like, file a civil suit against them. There's something shady and nefarious that happened in the house that night.

[Bob Crawford]

So who's actually suing?

[Emily]

It's John o' Keefe's family. It's his mom and his immediate family. His family. Yeah.

[Bob Crawford]

So, I mean, it's an unfortunate thing. It doesn't mean that, you know, they're not suffering by his loss, but. But I don't know. What's done is done, man. Sometimes you just gotta. You just gotta move on. It sucks. But the kids are the one that are gonna suffer the most. Those kids that he was taking care of.

[Emily]

Yeah. At the end of the day, I think, to me, I feel as if this was one of the most interesting, compelling, infuriating, but fascinating legal cases and confusing and unclear. But look, we follow Diddy, too, and Diddy is huge, and it's in the media, and everybody talks about it. Easy one, but I don't find it now nearly.

[Bob Crawford]

It's like, gonna talk about another freak off and another freak off.

[Emily]

Okay. Another witness. It's kind of the same pattern of behavior. Everybody looked the other way for years and years.

[Bob Crawford]

But he's, you know, he abuses his power. He. He buys people. I get it. He beats people and he pays them. He's a jerk. But it's. It's repeating. I mean, this is. This requires you to think and try to figure out what the heck is going on.

[Emily]

Yeah. And that's why it's so more of a puzzle.

[Bob Crawford]

Pity Diddy. What's his name?

[Emily]

Pity. It's Pity.

[Bob Crawford]

I pity that his name is Pity. Whatever it probably will be next. Who knows? He's gonna. No. Soon he's gonna be known by a cell number.

[Emily]

Yeah. But again, back to Karen Reed. I feel like this case should be studied in law school. It is.

[Bob Crawford]

No. Why?

[Emily]

Because it is the epitome of reasonable doubt. Like, this case is so fascinating, it.

[Bob Crawford]

Should be studied by the police department. And then they know, and then they should be telling their police officer.

[Emily]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah. There should be some protocol for finding a dead body on your law. On y. That's just what I'm saying.

[Emily]

I'm just saying this is a fascinating.

[Bob Crawford]

Case because every snowplow should have cameras on their cars.

[Emily]

They should have what?

[Bob Crawford]

Oh, dash cam.

[Emily]

Dash cams.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Yeah. I mean, that would have solved it right there if he had a dash cam on that snowplow. Case closed, right?

[Bob Crawford]

One way or another, right? Yeah.

[Emily]

I mean, either there was a body there or there wasn't. And if there wasn't a body there, the body's in the house.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah, no, dash cams are a big deal. You need a dash cam cam.

[Emily]

I need a dash cam?

[Bob Crawford]

Yes, you need a dash cam.

[Emily]

Who got pulled over today? Because it wasn't me.

[Bob Crawford]

Lots of people got pulled over.

[Emily]

No, that was you. You got pulled over today.

[Bob Crawford]

I didn't get anything wrong.

[Emily]

All right, thank you for listening to our break.

[Bob Crawford]

So are we done with Karen Reed? Are we going to follow the civil suit?

[Emily]

Yeah, well, I don't have anything else to say about the civil suit.

[Bob Crawford]

No, I know, but are we going to follow the civil suit?

[Emily]

Well, yeah, we'll follow the civil suit, but I mean, I'm hoping the civil suit gets dropped.

[Bob Crawford]

It'll. It'll get dropped.

[Emily]

Dropped, you think?

[Bob Crawford]

Or it'll. It'll be a short. I don't know. There's not. Well, I don't know. That this. Actually, this will be very interesting. Assuming they don't drop it. If they drop it. Okay. If they don't drop and they proceed with a trial, it'd be very interesting because you have two different standards on a very questionable case. And so it'll be interesting to know if it's like, not guilty in a criminal standard.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Crawford]

But guilty or liable in a civil standard. So that'd be really interesting.

[Emily]

Yeah. And also, just to draw a parallel, O.J. simpson was acquitted. And. And.

[Bob Crawford]

Oh, yeah, that's right. That's right.

[Emily]

But he was found guilty in a civil suit right after the fact.

[Bob Crawford]

Well, and. But the difference with him was the public knew he was guilty. I mean, come on, dude, the guy.

[Emily]

Was shady, all right?

[Bob Crawford]

He's a criminal.

[Emily]

Thank you guys for listening to Legally Brunette. We appreciate it. And as always, I appreciate when you guys DM you tell us how much you like it, you give me feedback. Feedback. Suggestions on cases that you find interesting. Actually, I'm reading the a book on the Memphis three because someone had suggested that to me, and I feel like that's another case we should talk about at some point. So thank you for all of the feedback. We truly appreciate it.

[Bob Crawford]

Thank you.

[Emily]

The Girlfriends is back with a new season, and this time I'm telling you the story of Kelly Harnett. Kelly spent over a decade in prison for a murder she says she didn't commit. As she fought for her freedom, she taught herself the law. He goes, oh, God. Harnett, jailhouse lawyer. And became a beacon of hope for the women locked up alongside her. You're supposed to have your faith in God, but I had nothing but faith in her.

[Danielle Robay]

I think I was put here to.

[Emily]

Save souls by getting people out of prison. The Girlfriends, jailhouse lawyer. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or. Or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danielle Robay]

Just like great shoes, great books take you places through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.

[Emily]

I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies.

[Danielle Robay]

I'm Danielle Robaix and this is bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from hello Sunshine and I heart podcast where we dive into the stories that shape us on the page and on each week, I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk stars, and more. For conversations that will make you laugh, cry, and add way too many books to your TBR pile. Listen to bookmarked by Reese's Book club on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Bob Crawford]

I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, a different type of podcast. You, the listener, ask the questions.

[Emily]

Did George Washington really cut down a cherry tree? Were JFK and Marilyn Monroe having an affair?

[Bob Crawford]

And I find the answers. I am so glad you asked me this question.

[Emily]

This is such a ridiculous story.

[Bob Crawford]

You can listen to American History Hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Emily]

I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that.

[Danielle Robay]

Meant for my heart.

[Emily]

Podcasts and Rococo Punch this is the Turning River Road. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult.

[Danielle Robay]

Leader married himself to 10 girls and.

[Emily]

Forced them into a secret life of abuse.

[Danielle Robay]

But in 2014, the youngest escaped. Listen to the Turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever.

[Emily]

You get your podcasts.

[Bob Crawford]

My Uncle Chris was a real character, a garbage truck driver from South Carolina who is now buried in Panama City alongside the founding family of Panama. He also happens to be responsible for the craziest night of my life. Wild stories about adventure, romance, crime, history and war intertwine as I share the tall tales and hard truths that have helped me understand Uncle Chris. Listen now to Uncle Chris on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Emily]

This is an iHeart podcast.