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Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge
Legally Brunette: Menendez Brothers & Gene Hackman
00:37:51
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- [00:01]
Emily Simpson
Hi, guys. Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunette. I will be your host today, Emily Simpson, with my co host, Shane. Shane. Okay, today we thought it was really important to do, first of all, an update in the Menendez case. It is proceeding along actually very swiftly. And it's been interesting because Gavin Newsom has now really gotten involved in this case. First of all, you all know that D A Nathan Hockman is involved in the Menendez case. And in the resentencing, he reversed the course of his predecessor who was Gascon. He was a more progressive da. He was the one that was really pushing for the resentencing of the Menendez brothers. But Hawkman came out and said that he will only reconsider if the brothers apologize for what he calls a litany of lies. So he was interviewed and he told NBC News, quote, if they go ahead and sincerely and unequivocally for the first time in 30 years, lay out that they have now lied on their entire defense and finally admit that they killed their parents in cold blood, then that will be a new insight that the court should then reconsider what he is doing. What Hockman is doing is withdrawing the DA's support for their recent. And he featured a list of 16 unacknowledged lies by the brothers. Now we'll get into some of these 16 lies that he's saying that they need to basically come clean and fess up to before he would even consider giving a recommendation that the judge should resentence them. Basically, he's saying, I'm not supporting the resentencing at this point. That was on Monday, March 10th.
- [01:47]
Shane
So can so all. So far, the only condition that he's adding is that they confess to a coldblooded murder.
- [01:54]
Emily Simpson
No, he's say he they did murder.
- [01:56]
Shane
Their parents, not confess, but he wants them to apologize.
- [02:00]
Emily Simpson
No, he said that basically what he's done is he's gone back and he's basically retrying them, which is not what resentencing is about. This is where I think he's completely off base and he's not understanding resentencing. Resentencing is based on rehabilitation and where they are now and have they learned their lessons and are they different people?
- [02:19]
Shane
Revisiting the punishment?
- [02:21]
Emily Simpson
Revisiting. He's gone back and I feel like he's retrying them and he's saying, look, in this first trial there's these 16 lies. And before I'll even consider giving a recommendation that you should be re sentenced, you need to Go back and admit that you, you know, lied about all these things.
- [02:37]
Shane
And literally the first trial or the.
- [02:39]
Emily Simpson
Second trial, it was the first trial. But here's the thing. When they were tried in the first trial, all of these lies were testified to, they were cross examined on, the jury heard them, and then the jury ended up being a hung jury. So I don't think, to me, those are moot issues at this point. We've already tried them on those. They were also 18 and 21 at the time. So we do have to consider that we're talking about, you know, 35 years prior. So next, this is on Monday, March 10, when Hawkman withdrew any type of support for their resentencing. I think Newsom is playing chess with Hawman, because then the next day, on Tuesday, March 11, California Governor Gavin Newsome dropped a. A breaking news on his new podcast announcing that Lyall and Eric will go in front of the parole board on June 13 for a hearing. So what he's ordered is a public risk assessment report to be done, and then they're going to have a parole board hearing on June 13. So I feel like his pushing for them to have a hearing in front of the parole board was a direct response to Hawman saying, we withdraw any support for the resentencing. I mean, you can tell that to me, it's like, like Gavin Newsom's playing chess with Hawman. Hawman makes a move, and then the next day on his podcast, Gavin Newsom's like, well, I'm going to give them a parole board hearing and we're going to do this risk assessment.
- [04:15]
Shane
You know, it's kind of like the publicity with the Netflix special and whatnot, huh? Afforded them the opportunity, the Voice, where people wanted a resentencing or whatever, and it kind of resurfaced, right? So it gave them kind of that spotlight. And it's also giving them the spotlight where now Gavin Newsom and other people are like, stepping in and everyone wants to be in the kitchen, you know, cooking on this thing.
- [04:39]
Emily Simpson
And, well, yeah, I mean, let's be honest, we're talking about. To me, it's a PR stunt on both sides because Hawman likes to give news conferences all the time. He clearly enjoys being in front of the camera. And the way for him to get publicity in front of the camera is to talk about Menendez, because everyone's obsessed with this case. Then Gavin Newsome has a new podcast. So what's a better way for him to get views on his podcast, and to get his podcast out there than to announce that he. That he's asked, you know, the parole board to give them a hearing. And so. But you know, what's also interesting is that they independently have hearings on June 13 in front of the parole board, which means that they're not being lumped together into, like, one decision.
- [05:21]
Shane
That would be normal, right?
- [05:22]
Emily Simpson
It is normal. But I think for me, even though.
- [05:25]
Shane
I understand that you've seen them together all the time, so then it's like, you just assume that it's right kind of them as a couple.
- [05:33]
Emily Simpson
Right.
- [05:33]
Shane
Committing the crime, and so they should be tried the same, and everything's the same, and here they are being separated, and then it runs the risk of one being, you know, giving. Getting a different result than the other.
- [05:43]
Emily Simpson
Exactly. Well, that. That there's a potential for that because they have independent parole hearings, even though I do know that they've had amazing prison records over the past 35 years. They've been heavily involved in lots of things like green space where they're putting. You know, they're painting murals and creating green space in the prisons. They've been involved in hospice, academically excelled and gotten degrees, and they've worked with, you know, other victims of abuse. And they also claimed on a recent podcast that they did with Garagos. You know how Garagos and what's the guy's name from tmz?
- [06:21]
Shane
Harvin.
- [06:22]
Emily Simpson
Harvey.
- [06:23]
Shane
Harvey. Why are you asking me?
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Emily Simpson
Because, you know, because you watch TMZ all the time.
- [06:27]
Shane
No, I don't.
- [06:28]
Emily Simpson
Yes, you do. You're the one that told me that TMZ stood for 30 mile zone.
- [06:31]
Shane
What's the. What does. I mean. I know. I watch it all the time.
- [06:35]
Emily Simpson
Well, okay, you get tmz, you get TMZ alerts on your phone.
- [06:38]
Shane
I know, and it's annoying. I gotta shut it off.
- [06:41]
Emily Simpson
Well, that's what I'm saying.
- [06:42]
Shane
All right.
- [06:43]
Emily Simpson
Anyway, anyway, so the brothers actually did an interview on their podcast recently. I think this was last week, and they were talking about all these things that they've done in prison. Anyway, my whole point is the resentencing comes down to rehabilitation. And are they a different person than they were 35 years ago? Have they grown? Have they rehabilitated themselves? Are they a risk to society? How does their family feel? And we all know that their entire family supports them being released and being recent. So anywhere. That's where we at. So they still have also, which is interesting, because I'm not really sure how this Works. But they still have their resentencing hearing scheduled for March 20th and the 21st. So I was actually chatting about it with Alex, who represents them. She's on their team, on their legal team. And she was saying, well, it hasn't been continued or rescheduled or anything at this point. So basically what they could do is proceed forward and present evidence of their rehabilitation, their prison record, the family, and all of that stuff. And then we'll see what happens on June 13th when they go before the parole board.
- [07:52]
Shane
So basically, Menendez update is another. Stay tuned.
- [07:55]
Emily Simpson
It is another. Stay tuned. But I think what's really interesting is that Hawkman comes out and basically kills the resentencing. Like it. You know what I mean? Like, he. It's doomsday for him. And then Gavin Newsom comes out the next day and he's like, no, it's not.
- [08:11]
Shane
Didn't Kevin just grant them clemency? Yeah. Or communion.
- [08:15]
Emily Simpson
Yes, he could. And that's. That's another option. So we still have two options at this point.
- [08:19]
Shane
And then he should just have them on his podcast.
- [08:21]
Emily Simpson
Exactly.
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Shane
If he really wants the ratings. There you go.
- [08:23]
Emily Simpson
Yeah. He's going to have to pay a lot for that, though, I think. I. They're not just going to go on a podcast for free.
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Shane
That's all right. He's got money.
- [08:31]
Emily Simpson
Let's talk about just a little bit of the 16 Hawman calls them the unacknowledged lies that they have not admitted to. So let's just. Well, we won't go through all of them, but let's just go through some. Eric and Lyle lied to me.
- [08:44]
Shane
Can I ask questions? So these lies are in the first trial, not in the second. If in the first trial there are lies and then the second trial, just for argument's sake, there were no lies. Then why is he going back to that like the first trial that got thrown out anyway?
- [09:00]
Emily Simpson
Well, I think that's the whole point of he's not really understanding or wanting to understand.
- [09:06]
Shane
He's worried the minute he releases or allows them to be released, he won't be able to do any public speaking anymore.
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Emily Simpson
So he needs another famous case to come up.
- [09:15]
Shane
There's another Hollywood murder. Am I gonna let these boys out?
- [09:18]
Emily Simpson
They are staying in so that I can give weekly press conferences. All right. He says some of these lies are Eric and Lyle lied when they claim that their parents were going to kill them and that they had to act in self defense by murdering them first. First of all, their defense in their first trial was not self defense. It was actually imperfect self defense. So that's not exactly accurate. And imperfect self defense is a partial defense that doesn't meet all legal requirements, but may reduce the severity of a criminal charge. So, for example, a defendant may claim imperfect self defense, which the brothers did if they reasonably but mistakenly believe that they were in danger of death or serious injury.
- [10:00]
Shane
Yeah, so which is like, okay, you genuinely were in fear for your safety. However, a reasonably prudent person would not be in fear.
- [10:10]
Emily Simpson
Right. And. Exactly. And this is what their defense was in the first trial was imperfect self defense because there was no immediate harm when they killed their parents. Their parents were sitting and, you know, in the, in the den watching a movie, eating ice cream and blueberries when they came in and shot them. So the imperfect self defense was a reasonable person would not feel that their life was in imminent danger at that time. However, their defense was they had been abused for so long wrong. That they weren't thinking like a ra. A reasonable, rational person, and that they felt that they were. That their parents were going to kill them.
- [10:45]
Shane
I feel that children always apply a self defense and it's really an imperfect self defense. It's like, yeah, okay, you're scared, I get it, but you shouldn't be scared. Right, I get it. He hurt your feelings, so you hit him, but you shouldn't have been hurt.
- [11:00]
Emily Simpson
So you're just saying kids in general, their, their excuses are always imperfect self defense. But they're 18 and 21. Are they still considered kids at this point?
- [11:08]
Shane
I was just talking about our kids.
- [11:09]
Emily Simpson
You were just talking about our children. Okay, so from now on, when Annabelle argues with me, I'm going to be like, that's an imperfect self.
- [11:15]
Shane
It's only going to mitigate your punishment. It's not going to alleviate you from anybody.
- [11:19]
Emily Simpson
We're just raising little lawyers over here.
- [11:22]
Shane
Or, or defendants or that.
- [11:26]
Emily Simpson
So is. Is Annabelle a defendant or a future lawyer?
- [11:29]
Shane
She's a person of interest.
- [11:32]
Emily Simpson
Every day, always a person of interest. All right. Another one is to support their self defense claims. Eric and Lyle tried to suborn perjury by asking Eric's friend Brian to testify that they borrowed one of his handguns the night before the murder to defend themselves against their parents. So there are, there were several instances of them trying to get people to testify to their defense. Another one was, I believe Lyall asked a girlfriend to testify that, you know, his dad made sexual advances at her or raped her or something like that. They also testified the purpose of their 120 mile drive to San Diego was not to buy shotgun shotguns, when in fact that was the reason that they made the trip.
- [12:16]
Shane
These two kids, we'll just go off the, you know, we'll just be in agreement that they killed their parents for their own safety. So I can make my argument. So if they're doing that, most people, if not all, don't, like you kill your parents cold blooded, right? Because you did it without being provoked. You did it and now, let me think, so you do, you do it. You kill your parents. They didn't attack you. You just walked in, they're on the couch. You shoot them, they're dead. You feel better. You're not going to think, hey, I have a self defense because I was in fear of my safety, they're going to worry, holy crap, we just killed our parents. We have to hide this. If someone advised them in the beginning, look, this, you can have a defense where there's a time where you're, you know, in fear of your safety and this and that, and so you kill them because it's your only way out and blah, blah, blah, blah, then they might have been truthful. But it's normal for people to think, holy crap, I just killed someone, I better hide this. Even if they did it for their safety. So if a female kills the boyfriend because he's a jerk and he keeps beating her, not all of them are going to like, well, I had a, I had a good legal defense. They're gonna think I just killed someone, I better cover this up.
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Emily Simpson
Right, so you're saying a reasonable person is going to hide the fact that they murdered someone because that's just the natural instinct of what to do.
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Shane
Yeah, but reasonable people don't even kill. So arguably, arguably they're not in a reasonable state of mind. I mean, I hate it when they say a reasonable person would have called the police. No, I don't know. I'd probably be scared to death and I would have attacked the person that was coming in my house or reacted in a way. It's like no one's, like, someone comes and points a gun at me and then the law is telling me to act like a reasonably prudent person.
- [13:56]
Emily Simpson
No. What about the. Now we know with sexual abuse, we know that they lie about the abuse and they lie to cover up the abuse. So is that a factor that should be taken into consideration considering that they might have lied about a litany of things, as Hawman says, but maybe their first instinct is to lie about things because they're still trying to cover up the abuse that they endured.
- [14:21]
Shane
So you're saying it's like, oh, I. I didn't kill him. Oh, it wasn't me. Oh, it was my friend. Oh, it was because he attacked me. Oh, it was. I thought he was gonna kill me. Okay, you know what? He just made my life miserable growing up, and I hated it, and I had no way out, and I was fearful of him, so I killed him. Okay, sorry. Then it's like, well, then why'd you say all that in the first place?
- [14:41]
Emily Simpson
Right. But my point is, based upon what you just said, that sexual abuse victims lie initially to cover it up. Like they're not forthcoming about sexual abuse.
- [14:53]
Shane
So I'm saying, oh, they cover up the abuse part because maybe embarrassment or they feel.
- [14:58]
Emily Simpson
They're like, we know that as a fact based upon psychological research, that sexual abuse victims lie about the abuse.
- [15:05]
Shane
I don't know. It's just a tough call.
- [15:07]
Emily Simpson
For in all scenarios, they also tried to get someone to lie and said that they were present when their mother tried to poison their family, that they.
- [15:17]
Shane
Had a legal defense or they did. They thought that that was a better thing than saying, oh, I was scared of my daddy. So they're probably trying to come up with scenarios to get out of this thing.
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Emily Simpson
But this is when they're testifying, I believe. Yeah. When they did shoot their parents, they staged it in a way to look like a mafia style hit.
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Shane
Yeah.
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Emily Simpson
So they shot the dad in the back of the head. They shot the mother in the face. They shot him in the kneecaps, it was supposed. And then they said, oh, was mafia. He was. My dad was involved in, you know, dirty business practices. So they, you know, use that as. As a way to reroute the police in the investigation.
- [15:54]
Shane
Get it?
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Emily Simpson
Eric and Lyle lied when they testified that Dr. Ozil, who, remember, was the psychologist that Eric confessed to. They lied when he. They claimed that he blackmailed them into confessing on tape to murdering their parents.
- [16:08]
Shane
That's the psychiatrist that talks in his sleep?
- [16:11]
Emily Simpson
Oh, I don't know.
- [16:12]
Shane
What do you mean?
- [16:15]
Emily Simpson
He had a mistress that he would tell things to.
- [16:18]
Shane
It wasn't in his sleep, I don't think. Didn't she claim that it was in his sleep?
- [16:21]
Emily Simpson
Oh, she might have originally. So he didn't like his confidence. Is that a way.
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Shane
I would never go to that psychiatrist.
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Emily Simpson
Is that a way he should have.
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Shane
A warning on the door like. Like, hey, this psychiatrist is known to talk in his sleep to his mistresses.
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Emily Simpson
And he sleeps with Other women besides his wife.
- [16:37]
Shane
Right.
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Emily Simpson
Let me just give one thing. Lyle Menendez posted on Facebook after Hawkman did his. After Hockman did his press conference and basically said he wasn't. He was withdrawing the D A support of them being re sentenced. So Lyle Menendez posted on his Facebook page that quote, of all those lies Hawkman talked about, several of them were admitted, stipulated to in the first trial and several of the other lies were absolutely disproven or reasonably disputed. So he, he responds to Hawkman's accusation. Also, the jury was a hung jury in the first one. So you have, you have to remember that.
- [17:15]
Shane
Well, yeah, okay. You want them to talk about the lies in the first trial? Why don't we talk about how the fact that a handful of jury members found them not guilty.
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Emily Simpson
Right.
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Shane
I consider it. Consider everything.
- [17:26]
Emily Simpson
Oh, also Mark Garagos, who is their. Who is the Menendez brothers attorney, he responded to Hawkman and he said there were 22 family members who signed on and told the DA's office, Stop re traumatizing us. We could tell at the meeting that Hockman had no interest in that. And I think that means that he had no interest in, you know, the resentencing. This really kind of points out one of the fallacies, if you will, of the DA office here. They're not interested in victims. There isn't a single living victim who endorses this. In fact, every single victim wants them out. He continued, this gentleman, this DA retraumatizes the family repeatedly. He's almost serially abusing them with his lies and his litany of lies. Family members who support the brothers say the DA has, quote, blinders onto the fact that Eric and Lyall were repeatedly abused, feared for their lives, and had a tone to their actions. When asked about the 16 lies the DA would like the brothers to admit to, Gargo said, quote, he's obviously showboating. He knows for a fact both brothers were cross examined for weeks in the first trial on all of these things. Every single one of things that he mentioned was either abandoned or cross examined in the first trial. And guess what happened? Two juries, not one. One for Eric and one for Lyall. Both juries voted against murder over the majority. Gargo said. Also, this is interesting. The family sent a letter to the U.S. attorney's office asking that Hawman be removed from this case. Yeah, because they claim that he's hostile, dismissive and patronizing towards them.
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Shane
Right.
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Emily Simpson
These are victims.
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Shane
Right.
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Emily Simpson
And apparently he's not very kind to them according to this letter that they've written and they've asked that he. That it be looked into or that he be removed from the case. So.
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Shane
Yeah.
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Emily Simpson
Okay, now I'm officially done with Menendez.
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Shane
Time will tell. We shall see.
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Emily Simpson
We shall see what happens on March 20th and 21st, if they continue to go forward with that or if it gets continued. And if they do go forward with it, then we will continue to see what happens on June 13th when they go before the parole board, when they get this risk assessment done. And then we will see what Governor Gavin Newsom does. So we'll have to follow his podcast to find out.
- [19:39]
Shane
Yeah. What's the name of this podcast?
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Emily Simpson
I don't know.
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Shane
I think it's just Gavin Newsom.
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Emily Simpson
He doesn't have to have a creative name because he's the governor, so he can just call it his own name.
- [19:48]
Shane
Yeah.
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Emily Simpson
All right, let's get into. This is interesting. Jean Hackman and his wife Betsy. We did a little, last time we recorded, we did a little synopsis on what was known so far, which was little at that time. We just knew that they were both found dead. Now, there have been a lot of updates. So we want to do an update on this case and talk about it, because I still find this case, even though there's, there's answers now, I still feel like there's now more questions. So the New Mexico chief, let's be.
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Shane
Honest, Emily always thinks that there's bigger conspiracy.
- [20:24]
Emily Simpson
I have a big.
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Shane
She would if, if they said we deter. If the, the medical examiner determined that aliens came down and killed them, she would be satisfied. But when it's like, oh, they have this rat disease and Alzheimer's fell, then she doesn't believe it.
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Emily Simpson
I would believe it more if they said Bigfoot broke into their house and murdered them. I would believe that. Right over what they claim actually.
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Shane
Right.
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Emily Simpson
Happened.
- [20:48]
Shane
Yes.
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Emily Simpson
I do believe in Bigfoot, though. Okay. The New Mexico chief medical examiner, Heather Jell, held a highly anticipated news conference. This is back on Friday, March 7, to reveal the cause of death for Jean Hackman and his wife. They claim after an autopsy that Betsy died of hantavirus, which, by the way, have you ever heard of that before?
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Shane
Yeah.
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Emily Simpson
Really?
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Shane
Yeah. Last week when I was reading about this case.
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Emily Simpson
Okay. But before last week, no, it's like.
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Shane
It'S like mice or rodent droppings and deer droppings.
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Emily Simpson
Okay. Right.
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Shane
But it can't be contracted from human to human. That's why there's not many cases of it. It can only be Contracted from the feces alone or whatever.
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Emily Simpson
So she came. So apparently it's a rare flu like disease linked to rats. So she likely died on February 11th. So she had to have come in into contact with rat poop somehow.
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Shane
What if it's Bigfoot droppings?
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Emily Simpson
It might be. They should look into that then.
- [21:42]
Shane
Would you be happy?
- [21:43]
Emily Simpson
It would make more sense to me, yes. She probably picked up hantavirus, which can only pass from animals to humans. After she was. After she was exposed to rodent excrement somehow. The wife would have been feeling sick three to six days before dying and then succumbing pretty quickly to the virus. The medical examiner has said.
- [22:05]
Shane
Succoming. Succumbing.
- [22:07]
Emily Simpson
Succumbing. It's not succumbing. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Vocabulary.
- [22:13]
Shane
Help.
- [22:14]
Emily Simpson
Yeah. The medical examiner also said there were signs of rodent entry around the property, but they assess the risk of exposure in the primary residence as low. It's similar to other well maintained houses in New Mexico. I would say everybody's house probably has some rat poop in it somewhere.
- [22:32]
Shane
No, no, no.
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Emily Simpson
What do we. Well, yeah, there are. There are.
- [22:37]
Shane
No, that's dog poop.
- [22:38]
Emily Simpson
No, I'm not. No. In our backyard. Togo catches big rats all the time. Yeah, but he catches it. They. They probably tunnel under the house and they're probably in the.
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Shane
Okay, so they had three dogs.
- [22:51]
Emily Simpson
Yeah.
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Shane
So anyway, they were a little bit more remote in less developed areas. Right. They're kind of in a hillside or something like that. So I bet you she never saw any treatment or went to an urgent care doctor or anything.
- [23:05]
Emily Simpson
Hackman also had late stage Alzheimer's disease, and he likely died roughly a week after his wife from cardiovascular disease and from the Alzheimer's. And he tested negative for hantavirus. But cardiovascular disease isn't a heart attack.
- [23:19]
Shane
Yeah. What is it then? Is it just a. A weakness in the heart or something?
- [23:23]
Emily Simpson
I guess so. But, you know, this is what I can't picture. So the wife dies nearly a week before him, and she dies in the bathro.
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Shane
Yeah.
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Emily Simpson
And I guess that would explain why the dog is in the crate in the bathroom.
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Shane
The dog was in a crate? Because I. I thought they had a. The dog had a procedure. So they were protecting the dog or securing it.
- [23:39]
Emily Simpson
They were probably keeping the dog away from the other two dogs.
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Shane
Yeah. Yeah. There you go.
- [23:42]
Emily Simpson
Right. So then that makes sense why the dog died, because the dog probably died of starvation.
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Shane
And unfortunately.
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Emily Simpson
So Gene Hackman dies nearly a week after her, but he's 95 and he has Alzheimer's. So he's just. I just picture this man. Is he just wandering around the house, sleeping?
- [23:59]
Shane
Maybe a lot. And maybe he has a route. I don't know how it works. Maybe he has a routine. So he was kind of just going through whatever his daily routine was. I don't know.
- [24:07]
Emily Simpson
Did he not notice?
- [24:08]
Shane
I don't.
- [24:09]
Emily Simpson
I'm guessing the bathroom.
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Shane
Well, maybe he did, but what's he going to do? He can't lift her up. And if he's not capable of making phone calls or. I don't know. I'm just speculating.
- [24:18]
Emily Simpson
Well, that's another interesting thing was apparently he had no cell phone because she. Remember I called her the Gatekeeper on an earlier episode that we did, because apparently if you wanted to speak to him or get a hold of him, you had to call.
- [24:28]
Shane
Right.
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Emily Simpson
Her cell phone. So I don't know. I. I don't. I don't know. I just. Picture this old. It's sad. I picture this old man wandering around this house.
- [24:37]
Shane
It's not the way to go.
- [24:38]
Emily Simpson
His wife is dead. He. He has daughters, but. I don't know. It said something like. I think I read they were kind of a strange. Hadn't spoken to him in months. It ends up being a maintenance worker or something that ends up seeing them or. Or coming to the house.
- [24:52]
Shane
I think that's the end of that case. I know. You want more.
- [24:55]
Emily Simpson
Well, I don't know. We'll see. Let's keep going. He was in a very poor state of health. The medical examiner said he was in an advanced state of Alzheimer's disease, and it was quite possible that he did not know that she had been deceased. The medical examiner noted. Noted also that Hackman was not dehydrated at the time of his death, which was likely on February 18th.
- [25:14]
Shane
Does that mean. Yeah, that means he was caring for himself while she passed.
- [25:17]
Emily Simpson
And February 18th was the day after his last recorded pacemaker activity. That's how they kind of put a timeline on when he died.
- [25:24]
Shane
He may not have had a very good concept of time. So if she fell and she's laying there, I don't know if she was ever conscious. Let's say she fell and she. That was it. She was out. Then maybe he would go and check on her and then think she was just snapping or her. And then. And then he didn't have a concept of time that had been so long. A week or whatever it was. You know what I mean? Like, maybe to him it was just a flash of time.
- [25:48]
Emily Simpson
Well, it does say that the medical examiner said that he did not have any food in his stomach when. When the altar was performed. So.
- [25:55]
Shane
Yeah, too bad.
- [25:57]
Emily Simpson
All right, let's talk a little bit about hantavirus. People get hantavirus from contact with rodents like rats and mice, especially when exposed to their urine droppings and saliva. It can also spread through a bite or scratch by a rodent, but this is very rare. Only 865 cases of the disease have been reported in the U. S. Between 1993 and 2022. And apparently now there's one in 2025.
- [26:22]
Shane
I bet if. I bet you that she wasn't quick to go get medical care because one, she'd have to take him. Yeah, that's probably a lot. And two, she probably thought she'd just walk it off because she just, what, flu like symptoms.
- [26:36]
Emily Simpson
Right.
- [26:36]
Shane
And she didn't want to go out in public, maybe with him. But that's. That's the reason someone like him who has the financial means needs to have in home care should have had in home care. It's too bad. It's too bad.
- [26:48]
Emily Simpson
Well, it really is, because it could.
- [26:50]
Shane
I mean, granted, he was 95, but she could have. She had a lot of life left to live.
- [26:55]
Emily Simpson
She did. And it makes me sad to think that if someone had been checking in on them or someone was living with them or they had an assistant or a caretaker or someone, that all they had to do was take her to the hospital. And I assume she could have recovered from it quick treatment pretty easily. So the pills found near Betsy's body were thyroid medication that had been prescribed to her and were not related to her death. This is what the medical examiner said. All right. The investigation will remain open as authorities still need to tie up loose ends. The Santa Fe County Sheriff, Aiden Mendoza, said this includes obtaining more data from Hackman and Betsy's cell phones that could shed light on locations or other communications they had before they died. I mean, this says cell phone. So does that mean that he does have a cell phone? I don't know. Or if he does, maybe he doesn't know how to really use it. Maybe he loses it. Maybe he doesn't know where to find it. Maybe that's why she's the one that you always have to communicate with. I don't know. So investigators are also awaiting the necropsy results from the couple's dog, Zenna, who was the dog that was found dead in the crate in the bathroom near Betsy's body. The couple's dog. We Talked about had undergone a medical procedure on February 9, which may explain why the dog was in the crate, which we said the dog was probably.
- [28:10]
Shane
The other two dogs, were they in the house?
- [28:12]
Emily Simpson
The other two dogs were found alive.
- [28:16]
Shane
Yeah.
- [28:16]
Emily Simpson
And had been able to go in and out, through and open. I guess there was a doggy door. So those dogs.
- [28:21]
Shane
So they were. All three would have been okay. It was really just because the dog was in the crate.
- [28:25]
Emily Simpson
Yeah. And the dog probably starved.
- [28:28]
Shane
Right. Right. Yeah.
- [28:29]
Emily Simpson
Okay. So Gene Hackman has friends that are speaking out and some of their friends are saying that Hackman had tried to stay active before his death. Declined. Friends of the Oscar winning actor spoke to Fox News about how he was focused on his health and was bothered by aging before he died at 95. Stephen Marshall, an FBI agent who trained the couple through a community outreach program, told Fox News that Hackman was concerned about the fact that he was getting older. He didn't like being old and seeing himself on film bothered him because he knew he didn't look like that anymore. That does have to be sad. I was thinking about that myself when I was watching. Remember we talked about before, I was watching the Poseidon Adventure with Luke. He looked so young and vibrant. He was a good looking guy.
- [29:13]
Shane
He's tall. He's got a great like, void. Like he comes off very strong.
- [29:17]
Emily Simpson
And then when I saw the picture of him at 95, that didn't even look like I could. You. I wouldn't have even known that was Gene Hackman.
- [29:23]
Shane
No, no. No one would.
- [29:24]
Emily Simpson
No. So it has to be sad. Like that's sad.
- [29:30]
Shane
That's what happens.
- [29:31]
Emily Simpson
I know. I don't want to age. I. I don't know how we figure it out. I don't know how we.
- [29:35]
Shane
You're gonna have to make a deal with the devil or something.
- [29:37]
Emily Simpson
I don't know. But it has to be hard when you're an actor like him that has been in so many movies.
- [29:42]
Shane
But he retired in 06.
- [29:43]
Emily Simpson
I know, but I'm just saying, when your image has been memorialized.
- [29:48]
Shane
Yeah.
- [29:48]
Emily Simpson
For everyone to look at and you look so healthy and tan and vibrant.
- [29:53]
Shane
And strong talking about yourself in 30.
- [29:55]
Emily Simpson
I am. I'm like, man, I have been memorialized into this show.
- [30:01]
Shane
Isn't that a good thing? Preserve it.
- [30:03]
Emily Simpson
No, because I'm going to be like. I'm going to be like Jean Hackman. 95 years old.
- [30:06]
Shane
You don't want me to playing. So in 30 years from now, you don't want me playing episodes of House.
- [30:09]
Emily Simpson
No, please don't it's going to be very depressing for me. So apparently his, his friends were saying that he always tried to stay active and that he did Pilates like three times a week and he would ride his bike, load up his bicycle in his SUV and drive to Albuquerque and ride on trails. But I don't know, I don't know exactly the timeline because I feel like his, his health has declined recently, so I'm not sure.
- [30:40]
Shane
Snowballed. It could have been exponential.
- [30:41]
Emily Simpson
Yeah.
- [30:42]
Shane
So maybe like these friends six months ago knew of his activity, but in the last six months he declined. They weren't updated.
- [30:48]
Emily Simpson
Right.
- [30:48]
Shane
I'm just making that up.
- [30:49]
Emily Simpson
Right. While speaking to the New York Times, Tom Allen, who had been friends with hackman for around 20 years, insisted the star seemed happy to have his wife run things, take care of him. She was very protective of him, this friend told the outlet, adding that Hackman had said he probably would have died long ago without the care of his beloved wife, who looked after him and made sure he had a healthy diet. Allan also said that Betsy would serve as something of a gatekeeper for her husband and would often set up golf games or meetings for the two friends. I don't know. See, I, I always wonder about that. Is she really all that? 100% concerned about his health and his well being and that's why she controls everything? Or is she just controlling because she likes to control him and not and she only allows him to go golfing with his friends when she sets it up. She only allows him to talk to his kids when she lets him talk to his kids.
- [31:40]
Shane
The world will never know.
- [31:42]
Emily Simpson
The world will never know. But I, you know, I don't know about Betsy. So who will inherit Gene Hackman's multi million dollar fortune?
- [31:50]
Shane
Well, if he has a will, that's what that will dictate. Otherwise it'll probably go to his children.
- [31:57]
Emily Simpson
Gene and Betsy had no children together, so Betsy's estate will likely go to her relatives. However, Gene was a father from his marriage to Faye Maltese and leaves behind Christopher, who is 65, Elizabeth, who is 63, and Leslie, who is 58.
- [32:10]
Shane
Do they have a prenup?
- [32:11]
Emily Simpson
Okay. I would bet there's no prenup because Betsy does not seem like the type of woman that would have a prenup. She's running the show. You think Betsy signed a prenup? Absolutely not.
- [32:20]
Shane
She's like, I'm 30 years younger, babe. Yeah. If you want me, there's no prenup.
- [32:24]
Emily Simpson
No. The details of who will inherit Jean's estate have not been shared publicly, but according to the wealth advisor, it will likely go to his children. But here's the thing I thought was interesting, and this is just me being a conspiracy theorist again, is that his children would not have inherited his estate unless Betsy died too.
- [32:44]
Shane
Well, when couples die at the same time and they both have their own offspring, Right. Or their own wills, what do you do? Because usually wills will say, if I die, everything to my wife. If I die, everything to my husband. So what happens when they both die at the same time? Like a plane crash?
- [33:06]
Emily Simpson
Well, revert. Don't talk about plane crashes. It reverts to children.
- [33:10]
Shane
Okay. Like a suicide bomber. Is that better?
- [33:13]
Emily Simpson
Yes, thank you. I don't know, I just think it's interesting. Well, if Jean died, just Jean and not Betsy, then the estate would have gone to Betsy. Unless he had a will overriding that. It went to Betsy. Right, Unless he left everything to his children. But there's no way that would happen. Betsy would not let that happen.
- [33:29]
Shane
But someone's gonna. Someone's gonna come in. Betsy's gonna come in and say, no, Gene Hackman died first and everything should go to his wife. Assuming there's no other overriding documents, everything should go to his wife. And then, therefore, they should come to me, the son of Betsy.
- [33:46]
Emily Simpson
Betsy has no children.
- [33:48]
Shane
Oh, she doesn't have any children.
- [33:49]
Emily Simpson
No.
- [33:49]
Shane
Should I be paying attention? Yes, you should be.
- [33:52]
Emily Simpson
Betsy has no children.
- [33:54]
Shane
Yeah, but she has. Then you go up, right? To the parents or whoever.
- [33:57]
Emily Simpson
The estate would have gone to Betsy, but Betsy died too. So now the estate's going to go to his children. Most likely. Unless there's some will out there.
- [34:04]
Shane
Yeah, that.
- [34:05]
Emily Simpson
That he has written that we don't know about. That somebody finds Anyway.
- [34:09]
Shane
Okay. All right.
- [34:10]
Emily Simpson
Supposedly, Gene Hackman has one of the biggest royalty streams in Hollywood.
- [34:15]
Shane
I was about to say, I don't think he was worth that much.
- [34:17]
Emily Simpson
Causing people to speculate that perhaps it was a murder and cover up.
- [34:24]
Shane
No, no, this is being Emily. This is Emily's notes.
- [34:28]
Emily Simpson
This. These are mine. Down here.
- [34:29]
Shane
Yeah. Bigfoot wanted the royalties, so he killed Gene.
- [34:33]
Emily Simpson
It was the aliens. How likely is it that both he and his wife died of natural causes? It is not likely. I'm sorry, there's. Of the story. Jean's property was located just 50 miles away from Zoro Ranch, which is one of Epstein's residences. There is no evidence that he was linked to Jeffrey Epstein in any way. So this could just be a coincidence. However, listen to this. Are you ready? This is Bill Gates private jet stopped in New Mexico the same day they found Hackman's body.
- [35:03]
Shane
I'm sure lots of jets landed on that same day.
- [35:06]
Emily Simpson
Not in New Mexico.
- [35:08]
Shane
Really?
- [35:08]
Emily Simpson
Not the same day that they found Gene Hackman's body.
- [35:11]
Shane
How do you know? You didn't pay attention.
- [35:14]
Emily Simpson
This is the conspiracy theory stuff that I always find. Was Hackman going to spill all of Hollywood secrets at his old age to receive some sort of repentance? I don't know. We shall see. Stay tuned. I like the conspiracy theory.
- [35:27]
Shane
No, we shall not see. He's dead.
- [35:28]
Emily Simpson
No, I'm saying maybe they find a will. There could be more information that comes out, or people could come forward and say that they were involved in this murder plot. Alleged murder plot.
- [35:40]
Shane
No.
- [35:40]
Emily Simpson
Bruce Willis's wife urges support for caregivers amid Gene Hackman's death. That was a USA Today article. So basically, this is Bruce Willis's wife, and you know he has dementia. So she's saying all of the burden of taking care of Gene Hackman shouldn't have been put on Betsy, even though I still think Betsy wanted to be the only caretaker. But that's just my theory. Yeah, but basically saying or advocating that Betsy needed someone looking in on them, that there should have been someone that came daily, that there should have been someone that lived with them, that.
- [36:10]
Shane
Yeah.
- [36:11]
Emily Simpson
You know.
- [36:11]
Shane
Yeah.
- [36:12]
Emily Simpson
And I don't know about the children. I don't. I don't know that relationship. I don't know if they were estranged. I don't know if it was normal for them to only talk to their dad every.
- [36:19]
Shane
They were like, what, in their 60s? I mean, they do have a different. I mean, their kids are checking on them, so.
- [36:25]
Emily Simpson
Right.
- [36:26]
Shane
I don't know.
- [36:27]
Emily Simpson
All right, anyway.
- [36:28]
Shane
So the world will never know.
- [36:30]
Emily Simpson
No, I want the world should know. I want the world to know.
- [36:33]
Shane
The world will never know.
- [36:34]
Emily Simpson
All right. Well, anyway, we're. Apparently Shane and I are watching Crimson Tide tonight.
- [36:38]
Shane
Yeah, it's good.
- [36:39]
Emily Simpson
So we'll give you a movie review on the next podcast. So it will be legal topics and movie reviews. Thank you, everyone, for listening to Legally Brunette. We appreciate it, as always. And if there are any cases out there that you would like for us to discuss and talk about, please feel free to DM us and let us know. Also, next podcast, we plan on going through the Ruby Frankie case, which Shane is reluctant to talk about.
- [37:07]
Shane
It hurts me. Is it Netflix or Hulu?
- [37:09]
Emily Simpson
I believe it's on Hulu, so if you haven't watched it, you can watch it. The reason that I think it's interesting that Shane and I discuss it, even though he does not like to talk about anything that has to do with child abuse, is that there's other elements. There is the Mormon religion, there is parenting, and there is YouTube vlogging. There's the vlogging issue, and then there's also the legality of the child abuse and all of that. So I think there's a lot of really interesting topics that he and I can discuss. So anyway, thank you again for listening. Please tune in to our previous Legally Brunette episodes or and our future ones.
- [37:44]
Shane
All of them.
- [37:45]
Emily Simpson
Just listen to all of it. Yes.