Legally Brunette: Ruby Franke

Summary

Podcast Summary: Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge Episode: Legally Brunette: Ruby Franke
Release Date: March 19, 2025
Host/Authors: Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge
Produced by: iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of Two Ts In A Pod, hosts Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge delve deep into the harrowing true crime case of Ruby Franke. Known for their insightful and candid discussions, Teddi and Tamra unravel the complex layers of Ruby Franke's story, exploring themes of abuse, manipulation, and the failure of societal institutions to protect vulnerable individuals.

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Case Overview

Ruby Franke, once a beloved YouTube vlogger running the channel 8Passengers, gained fame by showcasing her seemingly perfect Mormon family life in Utah. However, beneath the polished facade lay a dark reality of severe child abuse and manipulation.

• Background: Ruby, alongside her husband Kevin Franke, had six children. Their YouTube channel amassed over 2.5 million subscribers, earning up to $100,000 a month at its peak. The channel presented an idealized portrayal of family life, masking the underlying abuse.

• Downfall: In 2020, a single post exposed the family's turmoil. Ruby's eldest son, Chad, revealed the oppressive environment at home, leading to widespread backlash, loss of sponsorships, and the eventual collapse of their online presence.

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Key Events and Discussions

1. The Kimberly Sullivan Case ([03:02] - [16:09])

Before delving into Ruby Franke's story, the hosts briefly touch upon another distressing case involving Kimberly Sullivan and her stepson.

• Incident: On February 17th, Waterbury police responded to a fire at Sullivan's home. The stepmom evacuated, but her 32-year-old stepson remained trapped. He revealed he had been held captive for over 20 years, suffering from severe malnutrition and abuse.

• Charges: Sullivan faced multiple charges, including first-degree assault and kidnapping. Despite numerous calls to Child Protective Services (DCF) and school authorities, no intervention occurred until the desperate act of setting a fire prompted rescue.

• Quotes:

  • Emily Simpson ([04:19]): "He was only allowed out one minute a day to let the family dog out."
  • Shane ([09:14]): "Hopefully he can transition well, I don't know."

This case underscores the systemic failures in protecting victims despite multiple red flags and alerts from educators and neighbors.

2. Ruby Franke's Rise and Collapse ([16:09] - [43:17])

Ruby Franke began her YouTube journey in 2015, presenting an idyllic Mormon family. Her charismatic presence and relatable content drew millions of followers, turning her into a social media influencer.

• Positive Facade: Initially, Ruby's channel showcased typical family activities, parenting tips, and religious devotion, aligning with LDS (Mormon) values.

• Signs of Trouble:

  • Disciplinary Practices: Ruby's methods were harsh and punitive, often using food deprivation as punishment.
    • Quote ([21:54] - [22:01]): "She could be seen telling her sons that they would lose the privilege to eat dinner if they continued play fighting."
  • Manipulative Behavior: Ruby orchestrated scenarios to maintain control and enhance her online persona, often at the expense of her children's well-being.

• Introducing Jody Hildebrandt: Ruby brought Jody Hildebrandt, a self-help guru with questionable credentials, into the household. Jody's influence marked a significant turn towards extreme behavioral control and abuse.

3. Sherry Franke's Memoir and Insights ([43:17] - [57:39])

Sherry Franke, Ruby's eldest daughter, authored "House of My Mother: A Daughter's Quest for Freedom," providing an intimate look into the family's dysfunction.

• Childhood Abuse: Sherry details the emotional and physical abuse inflicted by Ruby, exacerbated by Jody Hildebrandt's manipulative presence.

  • Quote ([38:23] - [38:33]): "Jody's not well. She's being bombarded by the adversary. Her soul is under siege from Satan himself."

• Isolation Tactics: Ruby employed various methods to isolate her children from the outside world, including controlling communication and restricting access to education.

• Impact on Siblings: While the two eldest siblings, Chad and Sherry, eventually escaped and sought normal lives, the younger children suffered prolonged abuse until intervention.

• Systemic Failures: Despite numerous attempts by Sherry and concerned neighbors to seek help, Child Protective Services remained unresponsive, highlighting significant gaps in child welfare systems.

  • Quote ([66:36] - [67:50]): "Sherry in her memoir claims that she called herself over 20 times... and nothing was done."

4. Legal Proceedings and Sentencing ([57:39] - [78:39])

Following the exposure of their abusive practices, both Ruby Franke and Jody Hildebrandt faced legal consequences.

• Arrests and Charges: Ruby and Jody were charged with multiple counts of child abuse, including assault and kidnapping. They were held on substantial bonds but eventually took plea deals.

• Sentencing: Both women received sentences ranging from four to sixty years, underscoring the severity of their crimes.

  • Quote ([62:46] - [63:26]): "Both women took a plea deal. They took four counts of child abuse with one to 15 years each for each count."

• Impact on Kevin Franke: Ruby's husband, Kevin, was criticized for his passive role in the abuse, following Ruby's instructions to distance himself from the children. Despite being seen as a "good guy," his inaction was spotlighted as a moral failing.

  • Quote ([68:11] - [69:07]): "He could have, he could have prevented all of this by just being a stand-up dad."

• Legislative Changes: In response to the case, Utah passed a bill requiring parents to set aside earnings from their children's online content and allowing the removal of such content from platforms.

  • Quote ([75:00] - [76:10]): "He called the bill a great first step towards protecting child influencers here in the state of Utah."

---

Insights and Analysis

Two Ts In A Pod provides a critical examination of the Ruby Franke case, emphasizing the intersection of online fame, religious extremism, and systemic neglect.

• The Power of Social Media: The case illustrates how influencers can mask severe personal and familial issues behind a curated online persona, deceiving millions and avoiding scrutiny.

• Religious Influence: Ruby's abuse was partially justified through misinterpreted LDS teachings, showcasing how religious beliefs can be twisted to endorse harmful behaviors.

• Systemic Failures: Despite multiple alerts from educators and neighbors, Child Protective Services failed to intervene timely, allowing abuse to continue unchecked.

• Mental Manipulation: The introduction of Jody Hildebrandt into the household intensified the control over the children, blending self-help rhetoric with authoritarian tactics.

• Victim Resilience: Sherry's memoir serves as a testament to survival and the quest for freedom, highlighting the importance of voicing abuse despite systemic barriers.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Emily Simpson ([21:54]): "She could be seen telling her sons that they would lose the privilege to eat dinner if they continued play fighting."
• Shane ([09:14]): "Hopefully he can transition well, I don't know."
• Emily Simpson ([38:28]): "She's sharing several firsthand instances of harming her two youngest children whom she believed were demonically possessed."
• Shane ([44:05]): "So you can be like, see. See, look at Ruby Franke."
• Emily Simpson ([63:28]): "I think if one of those police officers would have made sure that she called her mom... things could have turned out differently."
• Shane ([71:57]): "But she care about their feelings."
• Emily Simpson ([74:34]): "If this happened, then it failed."

---

Conclusion

The Legally Brunette: Ruby Franke episode serves as a powerful examination of how public personas can conceal deep-seated abuse and the critical importance of vigilant societal intervention. Teddi and Tamra's thorough analysis not only sheds light on Ruby Franke's manipulative practices but also calls for systemic reforms to prevent such tragedies in the future. Through Sherry Franke's courageous recounting and the hosts' insightful discussions, listeners gain a profound understanding of the complexities surrounding familial abuse and the role of community and institutional responsibilities in safeguarding the vulnerable.

---

Note: For those interested in exploring this case further, Sherry Franke's memoir, "House of My Mother: A Daughter's Quest for Freedom," offers an in-depth perspective on the family's dynamics and the enduring impact of Ruby Franke's actions.

Transcript

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[Emily Simpson]

Hi guys. Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunette. I will be your host, Emily Simpson, with my co host Shane. And we don't really have any updates on any other cases, but I thought what we could do is at the top of every podcast episode is we could just kind of talk a little bit about the crime going on in the week. Just some interesting things. So I don't know if you've heard of this, but there is a recent case that popped up that I found truly disturbing yet interesting. It's Kimberly Sullivan. I don't know if you heard this, but. So Waterbury police and fire responded to Kimberly Sullivan's home around 8:42pm on February 17th. So this just recently happened. Sullivan was able to evacuate her home while her stepson remained inside and was later assisted out by Waterbury firefighters. This is what the police said. In the police report, the man was suffering from smoke inhalation and exposure to the fire. According to the department, her STEPSON, who is 5 foot 9, 32 years old.

[Shane]

That was in there for 20 years.

[Emily Simpson]

He weighed only 68 pounds. Yeah, 68 pounds. First of all, I think our sons that are 10 weigh around 55 to 60 pounds.

[Shane]

Yeah. No, I can't even imagine.

[Emily Simpson]

And they are. I don't even know how tall are they? They're not even five feet tall.

[Shane]

Four feet. Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

And they're tiny for their age and they're 10. So you're talking about a five foot nine, 32 year old that weighs 68 pounds. So while he was being treated, the stepson told the first responders that he intentionally set the fire in his upstairs room using a lighter, hand sanitizer and paper.

[Shane]

Oh, that was smart. It was a little risky, but it was smart. He was trying to escape. Yeah, he was.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, he was trying to escape, he stated.

[Shane]

Should have smothered her with a sanitizer.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane]

Throw her out the window.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, that was he should have furthered his plan. I wanted my freedom. He then alleged that Sullivan, who is his stepmom, had been held holding him captive for over 20 years since he was 11 years old. So the stepmom was arrested Wednesday, March 12 and held on a $300,000 bond over allegations of crimes against her stepson. She is accused of first degree assault, second degree kidnapping, first degree unlawful restraint, first degree reckless endangerment and cruelty to persons and she has denied all of these allegations. She posted bond last Thursday. She appeared briefly in Superior Court on Thursday and declined to make any statements before the judge and denied prosecutors request to place her under house arrest. Sullivan will be allowed to travel within Connecticut where this took place, though she will have to keep in close regular contact with probation officers. She denies all of the allegations My first thought when I was reading this is where is the dad? But then as I further investigated Read more about the Story the dad had died and then the stepson was left living with the stepmother. So the stepson lived in what place described as a back storage space on the second floor of the residence. It was an 8 foot by 9 foot space that had angled ceilings with no heat in the winter and no air conditioning in the summer. He said that a lock had always been on the outside of his door and it evolved from a chain to a padlock and eventually to one of those slide bolt locks. So the dad died in 2024, which means yeah, the father was a part of this. So the the stepmom was just continuing on with the way that this child apparently had been treated. So following his father's death, the stepson would only be let out Is this is what he alleges? That he was only allowed out one minute a day to let the family dog out into the backyard and that he was locked in this small room between 22 to 24 hours a day. He also alleges that he was only fed two sandwiches and given two small water bottles. I guess that's per day, two sandwiches and two small water bottles. And that he was forced to use newspapers to dispose of, like when he has to go to the bathroom in order to even bathe himself. He was forced to ration the drinking water he was given and he was not provided any soap or shampoo. He hadn't had a haircut in three years. His only he claims that his only real connection to the outside world was a radio that apparently Was kept outside of his bedroom. So he has a calendar and a radio. That's how he keeps track of time and for his education. I guess he's only reading at a fourth grade level and. But he was given three to four books a year. And he told police that he used the books and a dictionary to ultimately educate himself. He also told police that he knew hand sanitizer was flammable because he had read about that. So that's where he came up with the plan.

[Shane]

Good.

[Emily Simpson]

To start the fire. So that. The fire. Please. So that the fire was very lucky.

[Shane]

Because he could have very well been trapped inside.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, he did get lucky that he was rescued.

[Shane]

Yeah, I'm glad he did that.

[Emily Simpson]

There was a former principal of this elementary school where he used to go to, and the principal said that there were concerns raised by teachers and him. He claims that we knew it, we reported it, and not a damn thing was done. That's the tragedy of this whole thing. So apparently this kid, when he was in school, when he did go to school, that he was extremely small and thin, and when teachers asked him questions, he told them that he wasn't allowed to have food at home. He said that teachers would even bring food in for the student after noticing that he was stealing food and he was eating out of the garbage. The principal told a news team in Connecticut, or whatever this news cycle is, that they were on, that he and his teachers. The team made multiple calls to the boy's stepmom, Kimberly Sullivan, and also called the Department of Children and families at least 20 times by the fifth grade.

[Shane]

What's it take to get their attention?

[Emily Simpson]

I have no idea. I don't know.

[Shane]

Apparently the fire department. That's what it takes.

[Emily Simpson]

Apparently.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

That's. His last recourse was that he had.

[Shane]

To set a fire to the fire chief. My goodness.

[Emily Simpson]

So by the fifth grade, he never came back to school, and the teachers and the principal never saw him again. And now this elementary school is closed. But, I mean, there's over 20 calls to DCF and nothing happens.

[Shane]

Thank goodness. He's. Hopefully he can transition well, I don't know.

[Emily Simpson]

How do you. If you're £68, you're completely malnourished. How do you recover from that? Is that possible?

[Shane]

I would imagine it's. It is, but. And it's going to take time. And you can't just, like, pig out the first day. You have to slowly introduce foods and stuff.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay, so the question is, did anyone else know? And apparently the man said that in addition to the stepmother and his father knowing about what was going on. He has two half sisters and a late grandmother that were aware of his captivity. The the boy man, his name is not given out, so we don't know what his name is. It's kept private. But he claims that his late father would occasionally let him out of his room for longer periods to watch television with him or do yard work together. He said the last time he had actually left the property altogether was around age 14 or 15, and that was to dump yard waste with his father and that his captivity and restraint got even worse after his dad's death. When asked why he didn't speak to anyone about his experience, the man cited that the threat of longer lockdowns and further withholding of food and the false hope that his stepmom would let him out more if he earned her trust. So I guess he didn't speak out because he was worried that were well, obviously if there's teachers and principals that know about it and they're making phone calls and nothing happens, this man has no faith in humanity at all. It's not, it's not like he's going to go tell someone because he doesn't feel like there's any type of and he knows that his half siblings know and he knows that his grandmother knows and he knows that his dad was involved in it. This man was failed by everyone, not only his family, but society who doesn't.

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[Emily Simpson]

The stepmom has an attorney and the attorney tells people that his client, Kimberly Sullivan, was not the one making choices about how her stepson should be raised, saying that it was ultimately the late husband and the boy who was the boy's father.

[Shane]

Whatever.

[Emily Simpson]

As for the victim's allegation that he is not now.

[Shane]

Because she got caught, right. I mean, where he died in 24. Why didn't she do anything? Why did she speak up to her husband then? I mean, whatever. Why wasn't her. Whatever. She's a loser. They just need to put her a freaking hole and give her, you know, two small bottles of water for 20 years. That's what they need to do.

[Emily Simpson]

I agree. So the stepmom is due back in court on March 26 to answer felony charges of assault in the first degree, kidnapping, and all those other charges that we went through. So we will see what happens with this case. I think her defense is pretty weak. It's basically like, oh, it was. It was the dad. I was just following through with his wishes. But this is a terrible, terrible story.

[Shane]

Being named Karen doesn't help. Yes. Yeah. It's another person making that name look bad.

[Emily Simpson]

All right, so that was an awful story. But that was the crime that would happened recently in the news, which it is compelling. It is interesting to talk about. I do feel sorry for him and hopefully he gets the help that he needs and he can move on and be a functioning member of society. But I don't know how you do. Not only is he physically impaired, but socially. Socially, mentally.

[Shane]

No.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know.

[Shane]

That guy doesn't know. You know, was it 20 years? My goodness.

[Emily Simpson]

All right, well, let's move on to another enlightening.

[Shane]

Yeah, let's move on to some more positive.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, it is crime, so it's not going to be. We're not going to be talking about rainbows and unicorns. So we are. We are doing crime. Let's move on to the Ruby Frankie case. Now, Shane did not want to cover this case. He does not like to talk about child abuse. And if you've been following the case or you saw the new Hulu documentary, you do know that Ruby Frankie was in prison for abusing her two youngest children. Is in prison. She's in prison currently for abusing her two younger children. I think what's interesting about this case and what there's a lot of discussion that we can go through is that it happened in Utah, in Springville, which Shane and I used to live in Utah, very near Springville. She's an LDS mom. It's an LDS family. Family. A lot of her, I think rationale or reasoning for doing the things that she does, she uses religion. And I just think it's an interesting discussion to work our way through. So you being an active member of the LDS church, I think that it's.

[Shane]

Got nothing to do with it.

[Emily Simpson]

I was like, oh, I just think.

[Shane]

You being a female.

[Emily Simpson]

No, to me.

[Shane]

Her thoughts.

[Emily Simpson]

No, I'm saying that I think you can add some insight into the church's teachings.

[Shane]

The insight is she didn't listen to any of the teachings and she went. Did her own thing and was evil. That's what is. That's it. There's no, like. No, that's it. There is no justification. There is no teaching. There's nothing that would lead her to think this other than she's just a messed up person. Selfish. I saw one episode. She's awful.

[Emily Simpson]

Shane saw.

[Shane]

She's a terrible woman.

[Emily Simpson]

Shane saw one episode.

[Shane]

She's a terrible, terrible.

[Emily Simpson]

As much as he could do. All right, Ruby Frankie, let's just give you a little background in case you don't know the case and you haven't watched the series, But Ruby Frankie is an American convicted child abuser and former. Former family vlogger who ran the now defunct YouTube channel Eight Passengers. Now it was called Eight Passengers because she and her husband Kevin have six children. So there's the Eight Passengers. She was born in Utah in January. She was actually born on my birthday. It was January 18th of 1982.

[Shane]

Don't say anything real. To relate. Can you relate? Then you explain to us her thinking.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know. She's a Capricorn. That's all I know. Ruby grew up with three sisters and started a large family of her own after marrying Kevin, who was formerly a professor of engineering at byu. First of all, can we just. Before we get into this further, can we just talk about how the husband is a very intelligent, educated man. And I think we should just remember.

[Shane]

That because we're gonna get not entirely intelligent.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, book intelligent.

[Shane]

He. He did all the proper steps to build a family.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

And that's what's sad is maybe I'm getting ahead. But six kids, they all look healthy. Husband who's working, a mom who has the opportunity to be with. She wanted to be a stay at home, right? Absolutely. That was her loving. Yeah. Not Everyone. That's what she loved. Right. So she's has. She's able to fulfill her dreams. They live in, you know, what is a nice state. They have a home. They have all these things. And then she builds a YouTube channel, which she wanted. She makes good money that way to supplement her husband's income. I mean, they had all these opportunities. And then she freaking screwed it up.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, I, you know, if all those.

[Shane]

People that don't have the opportunities and wish they could. And she screwed it up.

[Emily Simpson]

All right. The Frankie shot to social media stardom with the YouTube channel 8Passengers, which Ruby started back in 2015, and it was to chronicle the life of her wholesome Mormon family in Utah. She eventually ended up with 2.5 million subscribers and more than a billion views, which is insane to think about.

[Shane]

It's. Yeah. To follow a family.

[Emily Simpson]

Not easy to do that. I mean, I'm on tv. I can't even get that many followers. The family earned up to.

[Shane]

Don't follow her footsteps.

[Emily Simpson]

I am not. Thank you for that warning. The family earned up to a hundred thousand a month at their peak. That's what Kevin says in the docu series, that they were at their peak. They were earning up to a hundred thousand dollars a month. The videos were a window into her life, showing a typical Mormon suburban family. But some moments raised eyebrows. There were a couple moments that she. She uploaded and I think what she did not realize, and this is what I'm also. I've also read a lot of Sherry. Sherry Frankie's the oldest daughter, and I've. I read her. She wrote a memoir, and I read most of it. I'm almost done. But Sherry, the oldest, basically says that whatever is in Ruby was always there. This. This narcissism and egotism and. And all these things, they were innately in this woman. And then the child abuse was something that was also there. Like she was not a good person. She did not have a good relationship with her mom her whole life. It's not like there was something that happened.

[Shane]

It's not like she was a wholehearted, like, saint. Right. Everything was great. And then she went, yeah, yeah, call it what you want. It's terrible.

[Emily Simpson]

So there were some. There were some videos at first that started to raise eyebrows. It's. So, for example, in one video, she could be seen telling her sons that they would lose the privilege to eat dinner if they continued play fighting. And another one.

[Shane]

You can't do that. You can't punish with food.

[Emily Simpson]

I know. I don't understand that. Yeah, I Don't understand that thinking.

[Shane]

That's where I want to. Like, that's like, let's punish her with food. Let's put her in prison and say, you don't get any food because you didn't sweep your floor or whatever it is. I don't know. It's terrible. In another, it's hard for me to listen to this stuff.

[Emily Simpson]

I know, but you're gonna have to because I need your opinion. In another, she said that her 6 year old needed to go hungry after forgetting to take her lunch to school. I actually. Sherry actually elaborates on this in her book, and she says that what happened was the teacher, Ruby, and said, your daughter forgot to bring her lunch to school. Can you bring her lunch? And she said to the teacher, absolutely not. She needs to just. She needs to starve, basically. Like, that's her way of learning to be responsible is to go hungry. And so that was a lot of her. A lot of her thinking, according to Sherry, was that the mom made it as if the kids had to earn her love. That was. It wasn't just given.

[Shane]

And, you know, I bet you that was really all. Well, yeah, I guess if that's the way she was. But I bet she also used that disciplinary style to get what she wanted on camera. Right. Because I saw some videos where she was like, pretend to be happy.

[Emily Simpson]

Make it like you.

[Shane]

You're happy. Just fake it. Fake it.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

Once you fake that you don't have kids and leave.

[Emily Simpson]

But the video that did the most damage was posted in 2020. This is when her son Chad. This is interesting that this is the downfall of Ruby Frankie, was that she's such a narcissist that she did not even. She wasn't even cognizant that what he was saying in the video was bad.

[Shane]

Well, she probably, like you said with Blake Lively around a bunch of yes. People. Yeah. So you have all these people who follow her because she did portray a beautiful family.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

And that beautiful home.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

Like, meaning that the living.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

And. And the interactions and all that. Right, Right. So people were following her authentically. Like, oh, wow, she. This is great. I can learn from her. She's, you know, inspiring. And then so she probably got really consumed, like, oh, I could do whatever I want. Like, she didn't realize, like, oh, you know, some people don't like this, some people don't like that. It's just like, oh, everyone loves me, so everything I do is awesome. Everything I touch turns to gold.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. And that's what had been happening up until this point. So the, the. They got cancelled in 2020 with one post, which is crazy to think about, but one post.

[Shane]

Did I see that post is one that was awful.

[Emily Simpson]

This is when she was.

[Shane]

Oh, go ahead. Sorry. Yes, I'll make fun of her.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay. The post was in 2020. And this is when her son Chad revealed that his bedroom had been taken away for seven months and that he had been sleeping on a small bean bag. And this is in the basement after playing pranks on his sibling. The tone of their discussion was light between Ruby and Chad, with the story drawing giggles from Frankie and her child. But many viewers were disturbed by the incident and they. Which prompted petitions and tick tocks to be made against the family a little bit.

[Shane]

I didn't find him to be chuckling. She did. He. He was rolling his eyes. He was not. He was not giving in. He was like, yeah, what? Like he, like. She was like, oh, yeah, it was a while. And he goes, yeah, seven months. Yeah. And then she's just like giggle and laugh. And he was not having it. Well, yeah, I wouldn't say he spoke up and told us, but he was not making light of it. And I think that's what touched the viewers is if he laughed, if he chuckled, if he kind of made it like, you know, this is how we operate, people would have questioned it, but they. I don't know if they would have canceled it. It would have just been on alert. But he, he was not happy sitting there talking about it. He was not okay. And I think that resonated with people like, oh, my gosh, she thinks it's funny and it's not that.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, with one video, Ruby managed to completely create a downfall.

[Shane]

Thank goodness she posted that video.

[Emily Simpson]

Entire YouTube channel because sponsors pulled out, brand deals pulled out. No one wanted to be associated with her. She lost a ton of subscribers. So she lost everything, basically, that she had built with just Actually I.

[Shane]

Because that video was posted. Yeah. It exposed her. But then now it probably made it worse for the kids because then she goes off in whatever direction she's going. Right. Whereas if she didn't post that video, maybe it would have been the same crappy abuse.

[Emily Simpson]

You're saying it was just like the lesser of two.

[Shane]

It was worse. Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, let me just write. Let me just. I just want to read this little passage about vlogging, because I did. I wasn't aware of this, but Sherry, the oldest daughter in her book, says that in my church, which is lds, we're encouraged to document our lives, meticulously creating a road map for future generations to understand their fruits. And it seemed as though the Internet was just an extension of that, another way in which to do the Lord's work. So this is why I, I didn't really realize this. Maybe you knew this, but a lot of LDS families do vlogging.

[Shane]

Well, diaries are encouraged to document your life, your journey for future generations, for your offspring, for your kids. Okay, then how much would you love it if your grandma had documented in a diary all of her ups and downs and her thoughts and feelings, and then you found it today? How would you like that? You'd be reading that, right?

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, yeah, that would be, I mean, that would be a wealth of information. That would be.

[Shane]

So I'm not saying she's wrong by not doing it, but how, how awesome that would be.

[Emily Simpson]

Right?

[Shane]

That's, that's what's encouraged.

[Emily Simpson]

But my question is, because you're saying in the LDS faith, it is encouraged to journal and to keep diaries for future generations, but is vlogging just an extension of that? Because we're in a digital age?

[Shane]

I, I, without knowing for certain, I don't think there's anything saying, go vlog. It's diet, it's journaling.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay, but what's your, what's your take on vlogging? I mean, what do you think? Because Sherry, the daughter, the oldest daughter, has spoken. Well, in this fashion, like, she's gone before the.

[Shane]

No, I think with involving children, if you want to vlog, then you do. So, like, let's say, let's say you want to do a cooking show, right? And you want to just experience. I know, I know. Let's make believe for a moment that you could.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay.

[Shane]

And then you vlog and you're sharing and you're loving and it's your hobby, and then the kids are incidental to that. So they come and they try the food or they help you cook, but really you're the focus or the content. But when you start involving them, or it's their personalities, it's them contributing, it's them having to interact, and then you're, then you're forcing their interaction. That's where it's a problem. Well, if they're just in the background and they're just bilat, you know, adjacent. Yeah, that's fine.

[Emily Simpson]

But that's not the way her channel was. So her channel was just revolved around the kids and their lives. She also created a lot of scenarios that I think, I think she went out of bounds where she was talking about like shopping for a bra with her daughter or, like, their first period, or like, you know, waxing Sherry's eyebrow. And she accidentally waxed one of her eyebrows off and then posted it because she thought it was funny.

[Shane]

On purpose, probably.

[Emily Simpson]

I mean, I'm sure she did. So it wasn't. It wasn't even documenting their family as a real family. It was creating scenario, like, he got expelled.

[Shane]

And she posted that everywhere.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes, he got expelled. So Chad, the oldest son, got expelled from school. I don't remember what it was for, but I don't think it was for anything. It was probably for, like, I don't.

[Shane]

Remember something on him. So he get expelled so she'd have something to talk about, but then he got expelled.

[Emily Simpson]

And this is how Jody Hildebrandt comes into their lives because Chad gets expelled. She, Ruby, the mom, thinks that her son needs all this help and therapy and attention because he was expelled from school. So she is referred to Jody Hildebrandt, who is. Who is someone that had been counseling Mormon couples and families in Utah. Now, this Hildebrandt, Jody Hildebrandt had established this therapy type of. I don't even know what it is. Self help type of thing called connections. And she established it in 2007.

[Shane]

And what's her background?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, I believe she was.

[Shane]

Was she married?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, she was married.

[Shane]

Children.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay, well, she was married, but she was divorced. And then apparently she had children who were estranged from her.

[Shane]

Sounds qualified to me.

[Emily Simpson]

Why? People trusted her, like a guru. Like, people were obsessed with her and her teachings.

[Shane]

It'd be like you calling a mechanic, and he's like, oh, yeah, I can't be there until Tuesday because my car keeps breaking down. I'm not gonna hire you. So why would you hire these people that. That. Well, first of all, they might not have known the background.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, I think a lot of people did, but I think they overlooked it. This is where. This is where the line of religion and fanatics gets blurred. Because I would say someone like Jody Hildebrandt used the religion in a fanatical way.

[Shane]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

Where it was very extreme.

[Shane]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

And I think you can pull something from religion and then just make it so absolute and so black and white. And so this is the truth that it's damaging. And that's the kind of person that she was. So her service is known for its courses on relationships and parenting, which some former clients say are rooted in the principles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And I think rooted is a loose term there because people can take any religion and anything in a religion and make it so extreme, but then use religion as a rationale or, or to reason. To reason why they're saying or doing what they want. So there were some former clients.

[Shane]

I mean, religion or not, she's a piece of crap. And they did, they did a bunch of terrible things to their kids. So I mean, it's not like if you have another parent, okay, like this Karen Reed that locked her 32 year old or whatever kid for 20.

[Emily Simpson]

No, Karen Reed is a whole different case.

[Shane]

I know it's a different case.

[Emily Simpson]

No, Karen Reed.

[Shane]

Oh, no, no.

[Emily Simpson]

Is a different case. The other piece of crap, lady Sullivan.

[Shane]

Solomon, whatever these Karen's that we're reporting on. So we don't know, but we assume that she didn't have any religion to say I locked him in a freaking room and gave him two little bottles of water. Right, Right.

[Emily Simpson]

But it's still.

[Shane]

The end result's the same thing. So who cares what the reasoning is? There is no good reason.

[Emily Simpson]

All right, so this is when. When Ruby meets Jody Hildebrandt and brings Jody Hildebrandt into their lives. First, Jody starts meeting with Chad because Chad's been expelled and he has to do these weekly meetings. Then I think with the combination of meeting Jody, but also their 8Passengers YouTube channel being canceled, Ruby has to now immerse herself into something else.

[Shane]

Well, yeah, everything that she had lived for was taken away.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. So now she's immersed herself into this connection.

[Shane]

Oh, so now she's got a big void to fill.

[Emily Simpson]

Right, let's just a little bit with Jody. I. So she comes in and she ends up moving into their house. I think that's where it just gets really weird to me. First Chad's having sessions, then Ruby immerses herself into this connections and she becomes like a counselor and she does all the, she does all the work and she, she's making videos and she's a leader in this connections. Kevin, the husband, is also having these weekly therapy sessions with Jody as well. And basically Jody is like a man hater. She doesn't like men. She makes that clear.

[Shane]

She doesn't like kids either.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't think she likes anyone. And I don't understand why people like herself. People jump onto her teachings, but they.

[Shane]

Do well, the sucker born every minute.

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[Emily Simpson]

I just wanted to read something that Sherry wrote in her book and this is when Jody so Jody actually ends up moving in with the Frankies. And this is because she claims that she's possessed by the devil. And so Ruby has her move into their home and live with them.

[Shane]

Wait, who's supposedly possessed?

[Emily Simpson]

Jody. So this counselor that's in their lives.

[Shane]

The counselor that's supposed to be inspiring and spiritual, is now possessed by the devil.

[Emily Simpson]

She's possessed?

[Shane]

Take her in the house.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, Ruby takes her in. Yeah, and she moves her into the house.

[Shane]

Nice.

[Emily Simpson]

And apparently this is according to Sherry's book. This is the conversation that took place. I Guess Ruby calls Sherry and she says, Jody's not well. She's being bombarded by the adversary. Her soul is under siege from Satan himself. He's trying to silence her truth. So she's moving in with us. We're going to help her get better. So Sherry says that this, her mother's unhinged guru, which I thought was hilarious, that that's what she called her. I think her book is really well written. Moves into their home and takes Sherry's bedroom. So now Sherry is going to go to college at BYU soon. So after Jody moves in, I just. I think it's interesting to go through the story, but also I. With Sherry's book, I just found some of the things that she wrote really interesting.

[Shane]

Did you say the name?

[Emily Simpson]

It's written by Sherry, the oldest daughter, and it's called the House of My Mother. And this is an entry after Jody moves in. And she says those few weeks after Jody moved in were a total mind warp. A bizarre, chaotic blur in which each new day seemed to outweir the last. Jody had taken up residence in my bedroom, and once installed, she never left, lingering like a bad smell while I was relegated to the couch downstairs, a refuge in my own home. So she moves in, and then Ruby moves into the bedroom with her. And Kevin, the dad is sleeping alone in the marital bed. Now, this is some weird stuff that's going on, and my question is, why is Kevin complicit in all of this?

[Shane]

It might have been not. It's not overnight. It was probably slowly over time. Well, yeah, he's probably just trying to. He's in survival mode. Just like the kids, you know, walking on eggshells with this psychopath. And then she brings in her psychopath partner. Now they're in the bedroom together. I mean, if it was overnight, he would have flipped, probably, but it was over time, so he probably just became accustomed to. It was in survival mode.

[Emily Simpson]

So Jody and Ruby end up sharing a bedroom together. Then Sherry, the oldest daughter in her memoir, also says that there was a night where she caught Ruby sneaking out of the bedroom, like with a robe on. And there was massage oil and candles lit. So she's clearly stating that she thinks that they were having a lesbian relationship up. Yeah, and so there's so many weird things that go on in this. You're talking about two people, Ruby and Jody, who. Who do these connection videos that are supposed to be teachings for people in the LDS church to live their truth. Meanwhile, they're having a lesbian relationship on the down low while the husband is alone in another bedroom, and the children are being deprived of love and care.

[Shane]

Yeah, no kidding. Are they still in the same house or did they move?

[Emily Simpson]

No, they're in this house in Springville.

[Shane]

Still there. I mean, in this timeline, they're still there.

[Emily Simpson]

Timeline there. This is the second home that when they first started out making their blog, they lived in a very small.

[Shane]

How does the dad focus on work? Because, like, he just wakes up, puts his tie on, goes to work.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know.

[Shane]

I mean, I don't want to act like everything's fine and then come home, does some homework with kids, and then says, okay, good job. Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

But here's my question for you. You. Because the. The dad, Kevin seems to be it. Even though it's hard for me to say, I think he's genuinely a good guy. I think he's just extremely controlled and manipulated by his wife.

[Shane]

Absolutely.

[Emily Simpson]

But he's a member of the LDS Church, and as far as I know and things that you have told me that the teachings of the church are that the man is a good father and a good husband. And.

[Shane]

Yeah, I mean, just. This is general good teachings. And, you know, for everyone, the man should be. If the man has children, the man needs to act as a father, not as a roommate to the lesbian couple next door. Right.

[Emily Simpson]

All right. I just want to read one more.

[Shane]

I just didn't know what you were getting at.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, maybe I'll get to it later when I get.

[Shane]

I guess maybe what you're getting at is he certainly had some teachings right. In his life.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

He didn't. I mean, he could have. We don't know his background, but he grew up. I think he served a mission, a church mission. He went to byu, did all these things that you would think he'd have some common sense for the household. Right.

[Emily Simpson]

And I guess what I'm saying is I know that, like, what are the. The classes that you go to on Sunday that are just for the men.

[Shane]

Bracelet.

[Emily Simpson]

You go to the priesthood classes?

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

I'm just saying, how does he go?

[Shane]

It's all we learn about is being a better husband and a better father.

[Emily Simpson]

But I guess my question is how does he go to priesthood classes on a Sunday and then go home?

[Shane]

Well, I don't know. Maybe he wasn't going anymore. I don't know. You're. You're saying how do you. Yeah, he's. He's. He's Christian on Sunday. Right.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

And then on Monday, he's back to his usual self.

[Emily Simpson]

I. I just I don't understand it.

[Shane]

It might have just been he was just going through the motion. He was just going through the routine. It wasn't really nothing was clicking. I don't know. But he is guilty.

[Emily Simpson]

Not in a criminal sense, but in a moral sense, right?

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know.

[Shane]

Maybe in a criminal sense.

[Emily Simpson]

So this. I just wanted to read one more thing that Sherry wrote because I thought this was very interesting where she. She does talk about her dad. She says, I felt helpless watching all of this unfold. Dad, who seemed like a shell of his former self, wasn't doing anything to.

[Shane]

Stop a shell of his former self. So he was just going through the motions.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. I wanted to intervene, to shake him out of this compliance, but I didn't know how. I yearned for my dad to find his backbone, to step up and be the protector he was. Supp. In the end, he never even tried.

[Shane]

I mean, never even tried. Not. He tried. She kicked him out. He called the police. They didn't believe him. Like, never even tried.

[Emily Simpson]

No.

[Shane]

And that's. And your kid's perception is reality, so that's how she sees it. Sucks for him, right? That's how he's seen as a father, because he's not a father.

[Emily Simpson]

This because after Jody moves in and then Ruby and Jody are sharing a bed, it gets to the point where there's all these control type tactics where, for example, Sherry says she's not allowed to go into the bedroom. She has to text her mom and ask permission. Kevin was allowed to leave the house, but he had to text Ruby and ask permission to come home. And she had to allow him permission to come back home. And he just went along with this. Then it got.

[Shane]

I know why we're going over this.

[Emily Simpson]

Why?

[Shane]

So you can be like, well, see.

[Emily Simpson]

Look at Ruby Frank. Look she did to his.

[Shane]

Her husband.

[Emily Simpson]

Don't complain.

[Shane]

That's what you're trying to do, right?

[Emily Simpson]

So from now on, you're setting a standard here.

[Shane]

And be like, see, at least I'm not like Ruby, Frank.

[Emily Simpson]

Frank.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

All right.

[Shane]

Also, I'm gonna pick the story next week.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay, well, you can pick the story also. What also happens is that Chad, the oldest son, ends up exiled from the family. She kicks him out.

[Shane]

At what age is he like? And he's an adult child now.

[Emily Simpson]

I think he's like. Or 19 or something like that. She kicks him out of the house.

[Shane]

Adult child.

[Emily Simpson]

Adult child.

[Shane]

Yeah, but it made sense.

[Emily Simpson]

Then Sherry, the oldest daughter, ends up exiled. She's excommunicated. She goes to college, but she has no more contact. And then Kevin, the dad, excommunicated. Well, whatever they call it. I mean, whatever you want to call it in a family, she's excommunicated from the family. Aled. So Ruby gets rid of Chad, Ruby gets rid of Sherry. And then Kevin has explicit instructions that he is not allowed to contact his children at all.

[Shane]

And he's obedient.

[Emily Simpson]

And he's obedient, and he doesn't.

[Shane]

So he want to upset the wife.

[Emily Simpson]

Then they also talk about the documentary, how there are neighbors that are very concerned about what's going on with these children and that they call child services and that they text the husband like, hey, you might want to check in on your kids, and he blocks them.

[Shane]

You know, I. I certainly am grateful that the neighbors were aware and all that. And I don't want to judge, but just generally speaking, if, like, you gotta do more. If you. If we truly believed our neighbors had kids, which. Our neighbors don't have kids. If our neighbors had kids.

[Emily Simpson]

No one has kids in our neighborhood.

[Shane]

If our neighbors had kids and we believe they were malnourished, they were like, let's say our boys were saying they're not in school anymore. And we saw him once and he was malnourished, and he looked and. And, you know, he was, like, stuck in the home. And we had reason to believe it was bad. I wouldn't just make a phone call and then that's it. It. And then shrug my shoulders. Well, I don't know. I would be like, no, I'm going to capture a video. I'm going to go knock on the door. I'm going to go over there with the police. You got to expose it. And then if you're wrong. Oh, well, you're wrong. And if you're right, then now it can't be denied. Right. If a police officer or a social worker or a teacher or someone saw the child truly, like, unhealthy and not how they should be living, it can't be denied. Then something would be done.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, I think you are the exception to the rule, because I think most people would do the bare minimum and then they would move on with their life.

[Shane]

Yeah. I don't know. You know, those neighbors, they have their own lives. They have their own things that they're doing. And, you know, so it's not like it's really their responsibility.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, they were calling, though. I mean, they were.

[Shane]

They were doing something, and that's good.

[Emily Simpson]

And basically nothing happened. So eventually this is where I don't think the documentary really explains it. And I don't know how this happened, but there are two middle children, so there's six children all together. The two oldest are exiled from the family by Ruby. She gets rid of them. And I think that's under the pressure of Jody too, because clearly this woman, her tactic is to isolate.

[Shane]

Yeah, they're probably grown, they could speak for themselves, they could push back. So she's like, oh, we gotta get her from their threat. Right, My new relationship with you.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. So if she can get rid of the husband and the two oldest kids, then the two middle children end up living with a neighbor. I don't know why or how they don't explain that in the documentary, but they end up finding the two middle children, children in a neighbor's house.

[Shane]

And then those neighbors don't say, hey, why are these kids living with us? Like, yeah, we're going to take care of them right now. But obviously that's parental neglect.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know. There's that. I have questions about that. So if anybody knows anything about how those middle children ended up with neighbors and why the neighbors were caring for them and why the neighbors. No, it's not in the book and it's not in the documentary, at least as far. I'm almost done with the book, but maybe Sherry will get to it, but I don't know, know, that's the mystery for me at this point. Ruby and Jody end up moving to Hildebrandt's home in Ivan's, Utah, which is this big 5 million dollar home that's like a. Like a. Do you saw it? Did you see it in the videos? It looks like a fort.

[Shane]

I saw a little bit, yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

So what happens is they take the two youngest children with them and you know, throughout Sherry's book she talks about how her mother, Ruby had issues with the two youngest always saying that they needed to be punished. And there was even an example she gives where they had a Christmas and she gave gifts to all of the kids except for the two youngest. And the two youngest had to sit and watch their siblings open Christmas gifts and they got nothing. And then she made them clean up the wrapping paper. And I don't know what it was, I don't know why, but for some reason she had some. I mean, she didn't like any of her kids, obviously, but the two youngest were, I think got the brunt of her.

[Shane]

Well, I imagine her behavior got worse and worse and worse and then. And the youngest children are the one that you can control the most. And they're gonna listen, right? So it just got worse for them.

[Emily Simpson]

So one of Frankie's children, it was the boy, escaped Hildebrandt's home, and you in Ivan's, Utah, through a window and went to a neighbor's home to ask for help. And this is actually where you can see in documentary, there's the ring camera footage. The neighbor comes on and he says, can I help you? Actually, the boy's walking away. If you watch, he rings the bell, and then he starts to walk away. And then the neighbor comes on and says, can I help you? And then the neighbor saw that he. The boy had duct tape wrapped around his ankles and wrists. So the neighbor contacted law enforcement, like, badly, too.

[Shane]

That duct tape, like, it had been there for a while. It was tight, right? I mean, I've never seen, you know, it's not like it's a good scenario where there's duct tape around.

[Emily Simpson]

But the thing that got me, because I watched that scene a couple times.

[Shane]

And it was so polite, too.

[Emily Simpson]

The sun was so polite. Because then the. The neighbor says, you know, how can I help you? Or what's this about? And he says, oh, it's personal business. Which you can tell right there by that statement that this child's been conditioned to not talk about.

[Shane]

I missed that part. I heard the part where he said, I. I just need two things. And he goes, actually, one thing.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. But first he says something about it. Oh, it's just personal business. So the boy rings the doorbell, and he tells the man, the neighbor, that he just needs two things. Then he changes it. He says, I just need one. And he says, well, what is it? And he says, can you call the police? And then I think he says something about, you know, it's just personal business.

[Shane]

And then to give that man credit, I think he came out fairly quickly once he saw.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane]

The issues. I think there was a lady there, assuming it was his wife, and they were carrying and they were calling the police, and they were. They were on top of it.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. And I think at first, you can tell. He seems like an annoyed neighbor at first.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Like, when the kid rings the doorbell, he's like, what do you want to.

[Shane]

See the whole thing? Maybe the kid rang it, like, five times, or, you know, he's thinking, why is this kid, you know, here and.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

But. But once he saw it was an issue, he. That that man, you know, rescued him.

[Emily Simpson]

He did. And he also broke down, which made me break down. I will tell you. That's the one time during this whole documentary, which is terrible, but I didn't cry until the, the neighbor cried. You can tell on the phone with the police that he, he loses it, he breaks down, he starts dying.

[Shane]

There might have been some like, holy crap, this is going on right next door. And I never saw anything.

[Emily Simpson]

So the caller tells authorities that the boy says what happened to him was his own fault and that his mom might come looking for him here soon. So we need to get the cops here as soon as possible. Upon arrival at Hildebrand's home. So the law enforcement, they show up, they located another one of Frankie's children, also malnourish, inside a closet. This was the 9 year old girl. So the 12 year old boy is the one who rang the doorbell of the neighbor. The nine year old girl was still at home and she was sitting on the floor inside a closet. She was petrified and spent nearly four hours sitting on the floor before first responders were finally able to coax her out.

[Shane]

Shaved head too, right? I think her head was shaved.

[Emily Simpson]

I think her hair was cut short.

[Shane]

I don't know if her head isn't a big deal because some people want that style, but it's, it's controlling them, it's controlling these kids and it's making them feel. It's punitive, not human.

[Emily Simpson]

Also in the documentary, you see the police officer find her in the closet and he, you can tell he's very affected by what he finds. And he sits in there with her.

[Shane]

I think he told the other police officers, I'm just gonna stay here.

[Emily Simpson]

And he did, he sat in there with her. They order her a pizza. I think he sits in there with her and tries to talk to her.

[Shane]

Sits down at her level, right? Sits feet flat and you know, it's kind of like, okay, I'm not a cop, I'm just a person right now. I mean, he didn't say those words, but that was kind of the thinking and eye level, you know, and not demanding anything like, let's go upstairs, let's, you know, interrogating, which is important, right?

[Emily Simpson]

I, yeah, I actually thought that was really compassionate of him to do that instead of just, you know, you go in, you sweep through the house, you find a malnourished child, you can just pick them up and have, you know, call child protective services and have them pick them up. But I think they knew she was.

[Shane]

So she was trapped, she was trapped in this windowless room, I think.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane]

Or if it wasn't windowless, I mean.

[Emily Simpson]

It was No, I think it was. It's like one of those escape room type of weird things that this house, this house was very odd. It was, it was like a fortress and it had all these like escape type rooms and.

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[Emily Simpson]

So Ruby kept a journal, but she also was very explicit about writing about the abuse. So in some of her journal entries, Ruby Frankie shared several first hand instances of harming her two youngest children whom she believed were demonically possessed and insisted that they must repent. One of her entries says, I told the boy he emulates a snake. If he wants to emulate the Savior, he needs to be 100, obedient with exactness. The body must engage in good work, and the good works need to be painful. I have the power of God, and he must obey. This is some. This is a woman who is on a complete delusional power trip, fueled by another woman who is her girlfriend, guru, whatever, who is also on a complete power trip. And they clearly get off on controlling people and situations. And I don't know what is. What is the stance on. Like, I understand that lds, you're religious, but is there also the belief that Satan exists and can possess bodies?

[Shane]

I mean, I'm not saying that's what's going on in that household, but that's what she's.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, in her mind, she believes that's what's happening. Yeah, but I think she believes that's what happening is happening because she's also being fueled by Jody, who's saying, you know, because Jody's possessed by a demon, too. So she's clearly telling Ruby that her children are possessed by devils.

[Shane]

I don't know.

[Emily Simpson]

Before the boys escape in August, her son, who.

[Shane]

I mean, unless they showed some remorse, but they show. I mean, and that. And not just. That's going to happen overnight. But the mom didn't show any remorse, did she? She's just an evil person.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, she apologizes during her sentencing, but when they first.

[Shane]

When they first apologize during their sentencing. Sorry, I'm not buying that. That. So this Jody lady, when. When the police arrived and tried to, you know, arrest her or detain her, she was fighting it, too.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, well, she had her attorney on the phone.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane]

I mean, she was fighting it a lot. Like, she was. She knew that she was criminal, and she wanted. She did not want police anywhere near her.

[Emily Simpson]

No, she had her attorney on the phone, and she was asking for a warrant, and she was making sure. She was trying to.

[Shane]

She's like, I've been through this before. Where's the warrant?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, she was trying to make sure that they did not search her home in any way.

[Shane]

Yeah, because she knew she was criminal.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. You're saying she's not delusional. You're saying. You're saying the woman was well aware that what she was doing were criminal acts. She was perfectly okay with it.

[Shane]

She knew the police were not going to be okay with it and the law was going to come down on her.

[Emily Simpson]

So before his escape in August. The son, who's not identified because they have not identified the youngest children, previously tried to run away in July on a night when he was forced to sleep outside on the patio. He left a message for his mother and Hildebrandt scrawled out of pebbles that read, jail. We'll call when I get there. The 12 year old was found by Frankie later that night. She also describes her daughter as manipulative and at one point cut off all the girl's long hair. No more distracting with long hair, Frankie wrote in one of her journal entries. The boy also repeatedly begged his mother for basic care, such as water or air conditioning, according to her journal entries. On July 11, the boy told Ruby that he wanted to go to jail, according to her journal. I mean, I, he probably wanted to go to jail to his.

[Shane]

Some people want to go to jail. They get three meals a day and.

[Emily Simpson]

They get some security.

[Shane]

No, seriously.

[Emily Simpson]

Or he might have said he wanted to go to jail because she's consistently telling him that he's evil and he's possessed by the devil and that he needs to repent and that he needs to work hard. She also apparently made them do extreme physical labor to, you know, wipe them of their sins and for them to repent for all this, this evil that they possess. I think she made them run in the desert and without water and things like that. All right, so Ruby is arrested and Jody is arrested. And during their sentencing, Frankie did apologize to her children. She said, I believe dark was light and right was wrong. I would do anything in this world for you. I took from you all that was soft and safe and good.

[Shane]

Good.

[Emily Simpson]

Jody said she hoped the children will be able to heal physically and emotionally. One of the reasons I did not go to trial is because I did not want them to emotionally relive the experience, which would have been detrimental to them. She said, my hope and prayer is that they will heal and move forward to have beautiful lives. Basically. Both women took a plea deal. They, they, they took a deal. They. Four counts of child abuse with one to 15 years each for each count. So basically they're spending between four and 60 years in prison. I don't know which it is. I assume after the four years they're up for parole. Do you know how that works? But right now there's sentences between four and 60 years and it's in the hands of the Utah parole.

[Shane]

Yeah, well, let's hope it's 60.

[Emily Simpson]

Let's hope it's 60. I do find it. I don't even know what it is ironic that Jody even has the nerve to stand before the court and say, hey, I'm such a good person. I'm not even going to go to trial because I don't want you guys to, you know, hurt. Hurt anymore. And want the children now.

[Shane]

She cares about their feelings.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. So both women are currently in prison and they're sharing a cell with. Yes. With massage oil and candles. And Kevin is not allowed to visit. Yes.

[Shane]

Kevin's in the. Kevin's next door. Next door.

[Emily Simpson]

Prosecutors claim that both Frankie and Hildebrandt were motivated by religious. This extremism. Which we talked about. Exactly. Also, when I was. When I was watching this, there were some parallels that I saw between this case and also the Gabby Petito case. Because first of all, in the Gabby Petito case, there is a scenario where we talked about when the Moab City police pulled them over, that was really the window of opportunity where Gabby could have been saved.

[Shane]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

If it's. I know hindsight's 20 20, and it's easy to look back on something and say, this should have been done. They should have this. But just to reiterate, if one of those police officers would have made sure that she called her mom from the side of the road and that they heard the conversation and that they. They got on the phone and said, hey, you know what, ma'am? You know, we pulled your daughter and her boyfriend over. There were witnesses that claimed that they saw him slapping her on the side of the road. Her eye is messed up, her arm has scratches. He has scratches. This isn't a good scenario. We just wanted to let you know.

[Shane]

This could be like an investigation. Like, is there any history between these two?

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

Not so it could have just been an investigation into the. This couple. Not so much like, we're going to tell your mom.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane]

Because she has. She was an adult, but it could be an investigation, so they should have done that.

[Emily Simpson]

I also think that there's just a moral factor there where I understand that they probably weren't under any legal obligation to make sure that she made the phone call. But I would just think from a moral standpoint that if they made sure that she. She got a hold of a parent that day, the things could have turned out differently. Also, the parallel that I was talking about between the Gabby Petito case and then the Ruby Frankie case is that there are also other times when DCFS was contacted multiple times about the Frankie children, and they never investigated, they never followed.

[Shane]

You know, that's funny, because you always hear These stories where, like someone called Child Protective Services at. As a retaliation, you know, like, oh, my girlfriend dumped me and she's a crappy mom. And so then you called, you know, D.C. cPS or whatever state you're in, and you call and then they show up and blah, blah, blah. And then there's a lawsuit because they cause havoc and this net. But then there's all these, like, valid cases and like, they don't even, like, do anything.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. And, you know, in the, in the Ruby Frankie case, as far as, from my understanding, Sherry in her memoir claims that she called herself over 20 times. Like she made multiple phone calls on behalf of her siblings.

[Shane]

Yeah. Right.

[Emily Simpson]

And nothing was done. And not only her as the oldest sibling, saying, hey, I need you guys to check on my younger siblings because I think there's some crazy things going on and I. I don't know if my kid, my siblings are okay.

[Shane]

Wow.

[Emily Simpson]

But there were neighbors calling as well. And again, it reminds me of the Gabby Petito case because I feel like there was the window of opportunity where those children could have been saved before they were taken to Jody Hildebrandt's house and, and wrapped up and scarred and. And they're bound and everything that happened to them anyway, that was just me relating those two.

[Shane]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

Also, I just think that there's such a parenting fail in both of those cases. I know. I don't want to place blame on Gabby Petito's parents because, you know, I don't know the whole circumstance, I don't know the whole story, but I. We did.

[Shane]

Yeah. There's no doubt they're grieving. There's no doubt that it was troublesome child. I'm sure they have their own regrets, so we don't need to add to it.

[Emily Simpson]

But we did talk about earlier when we talked about Gabby Petito that it just felt like there were opportunities where either the mom or dad or both could have intervened. But also, you know, it just. We have to talk about Kevin and just his. He willingly abandoned his family.

[Shane]

He's a deadbeat.

[Emily Simpson]

He cut all connection with his young children because. Because Ruby and Jody asked him to and that he had the ability to save them as their father. He could have, he could have prevented all of this by just being a stand up dad and putting his foot down to Ruby and saying, this is ridiculous. You cannot excommunicate me from my children. I have rights.

[Shane]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

And he never did that.

[Shane]

Nope.

[Emily Simpson]

And I understand a lot of people DM me about this case because I posted that we Were going to talk about it. And I would say the number one question that I got over and over and over is why did the police not criminally charge him? And my thought is he didn't criminally.

[Shane]

Do anything, but he didn't protect his children either.

[Emily Simpson]

That's not a criminal.

[Shane]

Yeah, it is.

[Emily Simpson]

How is it a criminal act?

[Shane]

He has a relationship with the kids.

[Emily Simpson]

And if he knows, he doesn't know, though. That's, that's his defense, is that he has no idea what's going on was that he completely removed himself from his wife and children and he was unaware that any of this is going on.

[Shane]

On. So basically the duty to know that the situation his kids are in, good or bad, you can't just be like, oh, they're, they're over there. They've been there for two years. I don't know how they are.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, but he has a moral duty. There's a difference between a moral duty and a. And a legal dude. Then why wasn't he charged with anything?

[Shane]

Oh, I mean, what are they going.

[Emily Simpson]

To charge him with? Being a bad dad because he, he being unaware, being complicit.

[Shane]

Well, whatever. Sucks to be him.

[Emily Simpson]

So Sherry wrote a book which I've read most of. I would suggest, if you're interested in this case, that you also read it. It's called the House of My Mother, A Daughter's Quest for Freedom. It's really well written and it has a lot more detail about what was going on within their household prior to their YouTube channel being successful. And then also some of the things that Sherry dealt with with her mom. And it's. I don't know, it's just really interesting. Here's some key points from her own memoir.

[Shane]

You know, I, I do like when in a situation like this, like Sherry writes a book because it, it is good. It's probably therapeutic for her. People come to her and know her story so they can, you know, support her. And she's, you know, because it be terrible if she felt like she had to hide this all. And it's embarrassing. And then also this sounds dumb, but, you know, financially she has something to support her. Hopefully she got paid well for the book. It does well. She. Maybe she can do public speaking or work with other victims. And now she has a career. She has something for herself and she can take care of herself. That's why I like these, when I hear stories of these victims writing books because hopefully it gives them something to transition into normal living.

[Emily Simpson]

Here's some. Just some key points from Sherry's memoir. Basically, she talks about how the child abuse started long before Jody Hildebrandt ever entered the picture. Basically, what she says is her mom was always that person. It's not that Jody came and made her into someone completely different. It. It was always within her.

[Shane]

But what is that so? What is that so. And, like, how does that change anything?

[Emily Simpson]

It doesn't change anything, but I think it's more of just recognizing that. That. That Ruby Frankie is just a horrible person from day one. Not that she was manipulated.

[Shane]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

By someone that she was always.

[Shane]

Lady just fueled it.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. She also paid Sherry a hundred dollars to wax off half of her eyebrow for a clickbait video titled Sherry, I'm so sorry.

[Shane]

So I was right. Did it on purpose.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. When Sherry disclosed her depression.

[Shane]

100 bucks. She's making six figures, and she gives her kids a hundred dollars.

[Emily Simpson]

She also claims that she never actually got the hundred dollars.

[Shane]

I think she's probably not like, I'll put it in a college fund for you later.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

Don't ask again again.

[Emily Simpson]

When Sher disclosed her depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation to her parents, her father was initially supportive, but Ruby said that all problems can be solved with prayer, diet, and exercise. Sherry went to her and said that she was very depressed and that she had, you know, suicidal ideation and that she just said, you need to exercise and eat better.

[Shane]

Oh, well.

[Emily Simpson]

And then the dad originally said, I think you should go to therapy. But then the mom talked him out of it, and he just kind of went along with it.

[Shane]

But don't talk to anyone. Don't tattle on me.

[Emily Simpson]

Ruby's abuse conditioned Sherry for sexual abuse by an older church member. She does talk about how she meets this older married man that's part of the church, and I guess he's high up in the church. He ends up sexually abusing her.

[Shane]

Oh, my goodness.

[Emily Simpson]

And I think her rationale for why it happened or why she didn't say no was that she had been conditioned.

[Shane]

Yeah. You don't see the red flags.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

You know, you see someone that you and I would think is a red flag. And to her it's normal because she's had crappy people around her mom, dad, and lesbian lover included.

[Emily Simpson]

Lesbian lover. Okay, let me ask you just your opinion about this. So when Sherry eventually cuts off contact from this older man, who, by the way, I believe is married and has kids and told her bishop what happened, her temple recommend a document that certifies that you're worthy to end, to enter and participate in temple ceremonies was revoked for a month. Month. She claims that the older. The older man that did this to her face no punishment.

[Shane]

First of all, people make mistakes, and there are people in churches that make mistakes. So you can't fault teachings. You can fault the men or women, but men. So if they took her temple recommend away, they probably did while they were researching what was going on. But you don't really take. It's all. It's all in the honor system. So it's not like they. They took it away and said, you know, raided her house and took it away. It's. They probably put it on hold while they looked into things. I don't know. I don't know what happened, but I know it's also not a criminal court, so they're not really going to investigate as much as they, you know, as a criminal court would. But they'll. They'll, you know, ask questions and try to diffuse it and try to get it. Get it to end and report anything. If there's anything in front of them, they will report it. I've been. I know bishops that have. Have had to report things and testify. So it does happen, and it should.

[Emily Simpson]

With a bishop, Is there the same type of confidentiality, like with a psychologist or psychiatrist or a lawyer? Yeah. Is there a. Is there a bishop, Bishop member?

[Shane]

You mean, like, within the church? Yeah, I mean, I mean, they're not gonna go. They shouldn't be going blabbing everything.

[Emily Simpson]

So you're saying it's more.

[Shane]

If there's a crime being committed, did. Then they should be reporting it? Absolutely.

[Emily Simpson]

But you're saying it's not. It's not a written doctrine. It's more of like a moral issue that you just kind of balance as to what's right and wrong and what should be held confident.

[Shane]

I've been through the bishop handbook before. It's been a long time, but I've read through it. It's. It's very much about protecting people and protecting the youth of the church. That is the calling of the bishop is to protect the youth of the church. So if this happened, then it failed.

[Emily Simpson]

So the children. Now there are six children. The two oldest are Chad and Sher. So Chad has a little bit of a social media presence. Obviously. Sher wrote her memoir, and I believe she's doing interviews and she'll probably, if, like you said, that it's probably therapeutic and healing for her to write all of this down, but then also to talk about it. I do like, in her interviews, when she refers to her parents, she refers to them as Kevin and Ruby. She never says mom and dad.

[Shane]

They weren't mom and dad.

[Emily Simpson]

So the two oldest, Chad and Sherry obviously are adults now and they're doing their own thing. And then there are the four younger children. It's Abby, Julie, Russell and Eve. I guess their names have been released now. They were all placed in state protective custody following their mother's arrest. Their father Kevin has, since he's filed custody, he wants custody of the children and he continues to rebuild relationships with the children as far as I know because I tried to look it up, I couldn't find that he had been granted custody. I think maybe it still worked, working its way through the court system. So I believe that currently all four children are in state protective custody right now. All right, lastly, maybe there is some good that comes from this story. Kevin Frankie, he supports a new Utah bill. This bill would require Utah parents to set aside money that their children earn making online content. And it's headed by governor Spencer Cox. The bill would also allow adults to remove online content they made as kids from web platforms. Terms. It passed the U. S. Senate 20 or the Utah Senate. Sorry. It passed the Utah Senate 27o in the final hours of the 2025 legislative session back on Friday, March 7th. And it had previously passed.

[Shane]

That's good. That's something. But it doesn't. That doesn't control the behavior.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

The content.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. This is the monetary. Right. Kevin Frankie testified in support of the bill in February, recounting that at the 8Passengers YouTube channel his now ex wife launched. He called the bill a great first step towards protecting child influencers here in the state of Utah. And there is much more to do in the future.

[Shane]

Now here's my question, so active now.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, one, I think that he has a public image now and people are commenting on his public image. So I'm sure not only do I think he's, he, he probably is legitimately a good guy. I mean, he didn't, didn't do anything horrible.

[Shane]

He was just married her and had six kids.

[Emily Simpson]

I mean, he married her and had six kids. Yeah, but he was complicit.

[Shane]

No, I know what you're saying, but.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't think he's evil. She's truly evil. But my question is he is now divorcing Ruby even though in the documentary he still claims to love her and care about her. And I'm like, man, this man is just like he is just brainwashed. But my question is, do you think that he is divorcing her because he has to for his public image. Image, or do you think he's still. He's probably still completely enamored and enticed.

[Shane]

By this jail, though. Maybe he doesn't want any ties with someone in jail because then he has to, like. I don't know, then he can cut her off.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't feel like he wants to. I feel like he just is divorcing her because it's, like, what he has to do to restore some of his public image.

[Shane]

So. So he's not remarried or anything like that?

[Emily Simpson]

I don't think so.

[Shane]

Well, he can't be if he's still married.

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, that's right. I think there was a question.

[Shane]

Is illegal even in the state of Utah?

[Emily Simpson]

I know. No, I. I think there was an interview I read with him where someone was asking, is he dating? And he said no, because he's still legally married to Ruby, which I know in the church, they. That even if they're separated, you should.

[Shane]

Wait till you're not legally married.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. So I think that's where he's at. So. All right. Anyway, that is the Ruby Frankie case, which was a horrific.

[Shane]

It was not in any way inspiring.

[Emily Simpson]

It was not inspiring at all. Again, Shane, we're covering true crime, so I don't think we're gonna have a lot of inspiring stories. But thank you guys for listening. We appreciate it. And if you have any comments on Ruby Frankie or Gabby Petito, we would love to hear them.

[Shane]

Anything important that we overlooked or were incorrect on?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, yeah. Feel free to let us know. Thanks for listening.

[Shane]

Thank you.

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[Emily Simpson]

Coffee Mate, a little foam. A lot of fun.

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We sure would love that.

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[Emily Simpson]

Call it in now.

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