Legally Brunette: Sherri Papini

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Legally Brunette: Sherri Papini"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge
• Host/Authors: iHeartPodcasts
• Description: Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge team up to Tell All. Listen each week as they watch and rehash as only they can. Who knows housewives better than housewives?! Right?! Teddi and Tamra are Two Ts in a Pod (Telling All).
• Episode: Legally Brunette: Sherri Papini
• Release Date: June 24, 2025

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I. Introduction to Sherri Papini’s Case

In the "Legally Brunette: Sherri Papini" episode, hosts Tamra Judge and co-host Sherry Papini delve into the enigmatic and controversial case of Sherri Papini. Sherri, a California mother, disappeared in 2016 during a morning jog and was found 22 days later under suspicious circumstances. Her case has been a subject of intense media scrutiny and legal battles, raising questions about the authenticity of her abduction story.

Notable Quotes:

• Tamra Judge [03:07]: "Hi guys. Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunette."
• Tamra Judge [03:16]: "Sherry, You're supposed to say just Shane."

II. Overview of the Disappearance and Initial Findings

Sherri Papini was last seen on November 2, 2016, while jogging at 11 am. Her husband, Keith Papini, reported her missing after not receiving her usual morning call and failing to pick up their children from daycare. Sherri was found on November 23, 2016, in Yolo County, California, appearing emaciated, bruised, and with a brand marked on her shoulder.

Notable Quotes:

• Tamra Judge [03:07]: "Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunette."
• Sherry Papini [04:25]: "You mean you think that they had her testify and then after it was a bad testimony for them, then they decided not to have anyone else?"

III. Trials, Testimonies, and Verdicts

The initial trial saw testimonies from multiple family members, including Brian Albert, Nicole Albert, Chris Albert, and Jen McCabe. However, during the retrial, only Jen McCabe testified, leading the hosts to speculate that the prosecution deemed other witnesses unreliable or uncredible based on their initial testimonies.

Notable Quotes:

• Tamra Judge [04:41]: "I think they were like, none of, they're not credible and we're just not going to put them on."
• Sherry Papini [04:25]: "How do they decide who's credible and who isn't?"

IV. Family Interviews and Conspiracy Theories

Hosts discuss interviews released by family members post-verdict, where Brian Albert dismissed the prosecution's conspiracy theory as "preposterous and silly," questioning how a vast number of people could be involved in such a scheme. This skepticism extends to the entire theory that the family conspired to fake Sherri's abduction.

Notable Quotes:

• Brian Albert [04:44]: "You do realize for this conspiracy to be true, it would take 30 to 50 people to be in on it."
• Tamra Judge [05:36]: "I don't understand how people buy this."

V. FBI Investigations and DNA Evidence

The discussion highlights the FBI’s role in unraveling inconsistencies in Sherri's story. DNA evidence found on her belongings did not match her husband but was later linked to her ex-boyfriend, James Reyes. This revelation casts further doubt on her claims of being abducted by two Hispanic women.

Notable Quotes:

• Tamra Judge [27:44]: "If you guys watch A Perfect Wife on Hulu and then watch her four part recent series. It's on. It's on Max."
• Tamra Judge [27:48]: "The DNA evidence did not match her story."

VI. Postnuptial Agreement and Motivation

An intriguing aspect discussed is the postnuptial agreement Keith Papini had Sherri sign, which was reportedly one-sided, aiming to prevent her from having affairs. Tamra Judge theorizes that Sherri's alleged kidnapping might have been a ploy to circumvent this agreement, allowing her to engage in an emotional affair without legal repercussions.

Notable Quotes:

• Tamra Judge [46:21]: "She signed a plea agreement with very specific language basically saying that she planned a hoax."
• Sherry Papini [47:12]: "She probably had to have an attorney to make it valid."

VII. Sherri Papini’s Life After Conviction

After pleading guilty to mail fraud and making false statements, Sherri served approximately 18 months in prison. Post-release, she has engaged in numerous media appearances, including documentaries like "A Perfect Wife" and the series "Caught in the Lie" on HBO, where she continues to recant her previous abduction claims, asserting that she was indeed kidnapped by her ex-boyfriend, James Reyes.

Notable Quotes:

• Tamra Judge [70:21]: "So Sherry Papini asks the FBI, can you do a sketch of the two women who abducted me?"
• Tamra Judge [58:36]: "Sherry Papini is released from prison after serving about 11 months in a federal facility."

VIII. Host Opinions and Theories

Tamra and Sherry Judge express strong skepticism regarding Sherri Papini's credibility. They point out numerous inconsistencies in her accounts, the suspicious nature of the DNA evidence, and her behavior during interviews and polygraph tests. The hosts propose that Sherri may be orchestrating an elaborate hoax to mask an affair with her ex-boyfriend and avoid the consequences of her postnuptial agreement.

Notable Quotes:

• Tamra Judge [60:21]: "I think she's a master at lying."
• Sherry Papini [63:55]: "I don't know. So, you know, of all things, what gets to me is I wake up worried, stressed about my day..."

IX. Conclusion and Recommendations

The hosts conclude by acknowledging the complexity of Sherri Papini's case and recommend that listeners watch comprehensive documentaries like "A Perfect Wife" on Hulu and "Caught in the Lie" on HBO to gain a fuller understanding of the ordeal and the mounting evidence against Sherri's claims.

Notable Quotes:

• Tamra Judge [70:21]: "We did our best to try to fit that story into an hour. It's very complex."
• Sherry Papini [70:21]: "Thank you Sherry Papini to get for giving us something to talk about."

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Final Thoughts: "Legally Brunette: Sherri Papini" offers a deep dive into one of the most baffling kidnapping cases, presenting a narrative that challenges Sherri Papini's credibility and explores the intricate web of lies and motivations that may underpin her actions. The hosts provide a critical perspective, encouraging listeners to seek out detailed documentaries for a more comprehensive view.

Transcript

[Tamra Judge]

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[Tamra Judge]

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[Tamra Judge]

Only in your mouth but, but also in your other orifices.

[Shane Simpson]

Wait, are you talking about you put your hole into the sun? I did. That's crazy. Downward dog mooning the sun. I was gonna say.

[Tamra Judge]

Is it cheeks open?

[Sherry Papini]

It's cheeks open all the way wide.

[Shane Simpson]

Is it cheeks open?

[Tamra Judge]

Uh huh.

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[Tamra Judge]

Hi guys. Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunette. I'll be your host, Emily Simpson and my co host, Shane. You're supposed to say just Shane.

[Sherry Papini]

Shane.

[Tamra Judge]

Just Shane. All right. Our last episode we did, we went through a little bit of the Karen Reed trial, but we also got to the closing arguments and the verdict. However, I thought it was important at the top of this episode just to talk a little bit about the Alberts and McCabes because they decided to give interviews right after the verdict came out. So let's talk about who was interviewed now. Brian Albert, who was the one who owned the home and he was a Boston police officer where O John o' Keefe was found dead outside of his home. His wife Nicole, his brother Chris, as well as his sister in law, who we all know is Jen McCabe, the one who testified in court, and her husband Matt all spoke to ABC News in an interview which was released on Friday, June 20th. This was two days after Karen Reed was acquitted. All five were witnesses at Reed's first trial. However, when we, when they did the retrial, Jennifer McCabe was the only one who testified at the retrial. Now I was thinking about this and I assume the prosecution puts on their, on their case and they were like, okay, we don't need any of you to testify again because that did not work the first time around. So Jen McAb was the only one who actually testified for the prosecution.

[Sherry Papini]

You mean you think that they had her testify and then after it was a bad testimony for them, then they decided not to have anyone else?

[Tamra Judge]

No, I think all of these people that were all within the house all testified in the first trial.

[Sherry Papini]

Oh, in the first trial.

[Tamra Judge]

And then when the retrial came along.

[Sherry Papini]

Okay, so even before the second trial, they realized like, this is not a good idea.

[Tamra Judge]

I think they were like, none of, they're not credible and we're just not going to put them on. So Jen McCabe, who is the, who is the sister in law of Brian Albert who owns the home, is the only one who testified at the retrial. All right, so let's just go over a little bit of what they did. The families have been accused by Reed and her defense lawyers to be the ones who were responsible for John o' Keefe's death. That was the retrial. That was their defense was that there was a conspiracy and that these police officers all conspired together, that something happened to John within the home, and then that they put the body out on the lawn. They blame Karen Reed for it. But in the interview, Brian Albert describes the theory as, quote, preposterous and silly. You do realize for this conspiracy to be true, it would take 30 to 50 people to be in on it. This is what Albert told Matt Gutman, who is the. The interviewer. I don't understand how people buy this.

[Sherry Papini]

You're going to probably speak to it, but I don't know if I agree with. It takes 30 to whatever people to be in on it.

[Tamra Judge]

Like, so I had the same question. I remember when this trial was going on, initially thinking, if this is a conspiracy and that's the defenses play. It really is astonishing to me that someone has not come forward or spoken out or broke this, this pack that they have.

[Sherry Papini]

I. It's not surprising. To me. It happens a lot. If there's like a drug party and someone dies, there's all these people at the party house, and people are like, I'm. I'm staying out of it. I'm walking away.

[Tamra Judge]

Well, it makes.

[Sherry Papini]

It's not like their hands are dirty, per se. They're just staying away from it.

[Tamra Judge]

Yeah. And it makes me also think about pity.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah.

[Tamra Judge]

And his freak offs. I mean, these have been going on for years and years and years and years.

[Sherry Papini]

And those are people that don't even benefit from the freak off. They're just like security guard, janitors, you know, assistant repairman.

[Tamra Judge]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

Other delivering the baby oil celebrities.

[Tamra Judge]

So the fact that no one was talking about these freak offs and there were so many people involved and it went on for years and years and years, goes to show you that you can have.

[Sherry Papini]

It's like you see an accident. Do you. Does everyone pull over and try to say, I'm a witness, I can help out? No. A lot of people just think, I got to go to work, and they drive off.

[Tamra Judge]

All right, so Brian Albert also addressed one of the major criticisms Reed's defense had on his conduct of the morning of January 29, 2022. Despite being a fellow Boston police officer and a trained first responder, Albert never left his Home, which is one of the things that we talked about when we did earlier episodes was how bizarre it that he is a police officer. He's inside this home. There is a body found dead on his lawn. He's a first responder. It's a fellow police officer. And he never leaves his home to find out what happened, to ask, to inquire. And police never went inside his home.

[Sherry Papini]

I'm sure when he pulls someone over for a moving violation, he's very detail oriented, takes notes.

[Tamra Judge]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

Checks all the paperwork, completes the form for the ticket. But then with this dead body on his lawn and he's like, he doesn't want it.

[Tamra Judge]

He's not interested.

[Sherry Papini]

No. He's got to get his floors repaired.

[Tamra Judge]

So during this interview, Brian Albert says, what am I supposed to do? Run out front in my underwear and start running yellow tape around the fire hydrant?

[Sherry Papini]

Yes.

[Tamra Judge]

I'm not a Canton police officer. I'm a Boston police officer. I was just woken up out of a cold sleep from hanging out the night before. By the time I came downstairs, the police were already in my house. John was already gone and there was nobody to save. First of all, he says in the interview, the police were already in my house.

[Sherry Papini]

Well, yeah, there was police. No, but police live in that house. He is the police, isn't he?

[Tamra Judge]

Yeah, but he's referring to the police that were investigating and that's not true. I feel like this is just.

[Sherry Papini]

Well, if it is true, then it's. Let's. What information did they gather by him being inside the house?

[Tamra Judge]

Well, I think it's confirmed that there were no, no one went in the house.

[Sherry Papini]

So why is he saying that?

[Tamra Judge]

Because he's a liar. Because I don't. Because I think he's making up what happened that day. There's, in my opinion, allegedly there was something nefarious that went on in that house and that there's a cover up.

[Sherry Papini]

Everyone's opinion that.

[Tamra Judge]

Right.

[Sherry Papini]

First went on inside.

[Tamra Judge]

So now that he's giving. First of all, it probably wasn't a great idea for them to give an interview. They probably.

[Sherry Papini]

Why would they give an interview?

[Tamra Judge]

I think because people think they're going to change people's minds, that they're. If they speak to it and they, and they. And they're convincing enough in their own head that they're going to convince other people. I think all it did was make them look more guilty. He says, I would have taken a bullet for John o' Keefe because he was a fellow cop.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, but I'm not going to go out there.

[Tamra Judge]

But I'm not gonna go out there.

[Sherry Papini]

On his body and see if he's alive or dead.

[Tamra Judge]

I'll take a bullet.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah.

[Tamra Judge]

But I'm not going to go out there in my underwear and run yellow tape around.

[Sherry Papini]

And I won't testify and I won't admit for any wrongdoing, but I'll take a bullet.

[Tamra Judge]

But I would take a bullet. Matt McCabe.

[Sherry Papini]

That's because it's. Sorry. That's because it's easy to say that. People say that all the time, that they'll, they'll do anything. I mean, it's easy to say that or say, I'll, I'll lay down my life or I'll give my lie. But. But when you're actually in the position. Will he take a bullet now? Doubt it.

[Tamra Judge]

No, absolutely not.

[Sherry Papini]

I wouldn't take a bullet for my friends.

[Tamra Judge]

Yeah. No, probably not. No, you probably would take a bullet for me. Like, what are you talking about?

[Sherry Papini]

On who's firing what you did.

[Tamra Judge]

Matt McCabe said the group stayed silent because they wanted to let the court do its job. We took what we thought was the high road, he said. Brian Albert adds. The criminal justice system has let us down at every turn. Yesterday, when Karen was acquitted was the final letdown. No one protects you, and it's very, very sad. Think long and hard before you're a witness in a case. Added his wife, Nicole. She said she was just sad for John's family. Yeah, And I. I mean, we've talked about that. We're all sad for John o' Keeffe's family. The real travesty is that there's no closure in this case and they still have the civil lawsuit going on, but we'll see what happens with that. The o' Kee family has not issued the civil lawsuit.

[Sherry Papini]

Might reveal more information. Right. Because some things might be more admissible in a civil case.

[Tamra Judge]

Yeah, I need. We need to dive into that. I have heard and I don't know if this is true, but it has to do also with Karen's behavior that night in the house when she couldn't find John because his daughter was in the house and she was 14. And there's something about her possibly being traumatized by the way Karen acted or so I think.

[Sherry Papini]

I think there'll be more to learn.

[Tamra Judge]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

Maybe still some more questions to be answered, but there'll be more to learn as a result of the civil case.

[Tamra Judge]

So the o' Kee family has not issued a public statement since the verdict. And did not speak to the press outside the courthouse. They are still suing Reed for John o' Keefe's death and a civil lawsuit. All right, let's move on to Sherry Papini. I'm so excited to do this case because it is nuts and I love talking about nutty women because I like.

[Sherry Papini]

Well, there's plenty of them.

[Tamra Judge]

I am always intrigued by Shane's reaction.

[Sherry Papini]

I, I don't know much about this case.

[Tamra Judge]

I know you don't. Sherry Papini. First of all, there was a documentary. I'm gonna tell you, if you guys drink a Sherry Papini, I would like a Sharon Mar. First of all, let me tell you the order you need to go about watching this because I feel like too many people who are now interested in the Sherry Papini case are only watching the four part documentary that came out on ident. What is it? Id, Identification, Discovery, which is the newly, the most newly released interview that she did after serving time in prison. If you only watch that, I feel like you might be a little biased and a little jaded. So I would suggest that if you're interested a full account of what happened, go and watch the Hulu documentary. It's called A Perfect Wife that is about what happened with this kidnapping and everything. It gives you a very deep background into her life and her husband and her kids and this whole kidnapping. Then watch the new four part interview that she does recently because I feel like you have to put those two together to really have a full concept of everything. Perfect Wife.

[Sherry Papini]

Well, I, I mean, body in the Snow, I get. Why is it called Perfect Wife?

[Tamra Judge]

I, I think because that's the way she portrayed herself is like this perfect wife and mom when really in reality she's insane. All right, let's get into Sherry. Let's get into Sherry. Pap beanie. So Sherry is a California mother of2 whose 2016 disappearance and dramatic return sparked national attention only to unravel years later as one of the most notorious kidnapping hoaxes in modern times. So this happened back on November 2, 2016. Papini is believed to have been kidnapped during an 11am jog. Her husband, Keith Papini, says he last received a text from Sherry at 10:37am asking if he planned to return home for lunch. But he claims he didn't see the text right away and responded back around 1:30pm Keith reports her missing that evening after he comes home to find she isn't there and had not picked up the kids from daycare. He does find My iPhone. And that led Keith to Sherry's phone and earbuds, which were found on the ground with strands of hair appearing as though there had been some type of struggle. Authorities and family members launch an intensive search and public awareness campaign. Now he starts doing a lot of interviews. Of course. What does everyone say when a wife disappears?

[Sherry Papini]

They clearly, please come home.

[Tamra Judge]

When I watched his interviews, it kind of. It reminded me of Scott Peterson when Lacy was missing and he did all the interviews about, you know, like, please come back, please come back. Bring my wife back. Although Scott Peterson is dead in the face, at least Keith Papini has. I find him somewhat more believable. When I was watching his interviews, I felt as if I didn't think like, okay, he's the one.

[Sherry Papini]

What state is this in?

[Tamra Judge]

This is in Northern California and reading. So Sherry Papini disappears from November 3rd to November 23rd. She's gone around 22 days. Local, state and federal law enforcement are involved in the missing person's case. I do know that Keith also requested that the FBI be involved. Someone told him that he should do that. And there is video of him during his interviews asking for the FBI to be involved. Social media and GoFundMe campaigns draw national attention. There was a GoFundMe that raised more than 42,000 towards search efforts. And the Pepini family also offered a $50,000 reward for Sher safe return. He also made. Keith also made many emotional appearances on Good Morning America, ABC News, etc, describing his wife as a super mom and plead for her safe return.

[Sherry Papini]

That's. That's sign of guilt right there.

[Tamra Judge]

What, the super mom? Yeah. Well, he's not guilty. November 24th is Thanksgiving Day. At 4:30am Sherry is found in the middle of Country Road 17 and I5 in Yolo County. YOLO. You only live once.

[Sherry Papini]

It's not the last one in the alphabetical order, though. It's not Yuma County.

[Tamra Judge]

Yuma, yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

It's a close one. It's a close second.

[Tamra Judge]

It was near the woodland area about 150 miles south of where she first disappeared. She is found bruised and emaciated with bindings and a brand on her shoulder that says Exodus. Her hair has also been cut.

[Sherry Papini]

Was Exodus.

[Tamra Judge]

Well, it's a Bible verse.

[Sherry Papini]

No, I know, but like, I don't know. Yeah. What is the significance of that?

[Tamra Judge]

I don't know. Not really anything, I don't think.

[Sherry Papini]

Was it like a. A certain font or was it a certain, like, style that means some type of culture?

[Tamra Judge]

I don't know. We would have to ask Sherry that.

[Sherry Papini]

If you said tattoo, I'd be like, okay, whatever. But you said branded. That's different.

[Tamra Judge]

It's branded. It was burned onto her.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, that's.

[Tamra Judge]

That's Sherry's story. She claims that she was captured by two Hispanic women and a dark SUV while on her run. They took her to an unknown location which she claims to have been drugged during the car ride. So she didn't know where she was. She said she was physically restrained with her wrists and ankles chained and a bag over her head for the majority of the time. She said she was beaten repeatedly, often just for fun, by one of the women who she referred to as the mean one. She claimed she was starved, losing a significant amount of weight, reportedly 15 to 20 pounds within a 22 day period that she was gone. She said her two captors branded her on the right shoulder with a heated tool, though she didn't know what the word exodus meant. Apparently it is a reference to the Bible. She was forced to use a small bucket as a latrine. And she reported that one of the women appeared more sympathetic and that her release was likely negotiated by her. I watched her interview when she was telling the police and she calls the two Hispanic women that she claims abducted her. She says there was a big one and there was a small one and she said the big one was the mean one and the small one was more sympathetic towards her. Recorded police interviews with Sherry Papini and the hours after her return showed she was reluctant to speak with investigators, claiming that her abductors told her she was going to be trafficked to someone in law enforcement. Sherry avoided doing media interviews after she had escaped. She even avoided large crowds.

[Sherry Papini]

Did she escape or negotiate her release?

[Tamra Judge]

Well, what happened was they. She was found dropped on the side of the road.

[Sherry Papini]

I vaguely remember this in the news now.

[Tamra Judge]

I'm starting to recall someone picks her up and he calls 911 and you can hear his 911 recording. And he calls her. First he calls her Sherry Panini and then she says Papini. So a bystander on the highway finds her and calls police and she's like has a chain wrapped around her waist and she has, she's not very good negotiator. She has ties. What are those? Zip ties, Cable ties, Cable ties. Right. So she avoids doing media interviews after she's caught. There are several interviews that I watch in the documentary where the police are are her, they're asking her questions about what happened and I find her so disingenuine and so unlikable. She talks about things that don't make sense. Like she talks about how she texts her husband to come home for lunch, but lunch really means come home to have sex. I thought that was just odd that these are things that she's telling investigators when supposedly she's, you know, been kidnapped for 22 days and has been beaten. And she's just making jokes about like sexual references with her husband. And she says that she needs to close her eyes when she talks. She can't remember a lot of things anyway. I find her difficult to believe.

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[Tamra Judge]

Honestly, honestly, honestly.

[Shane Simpson]

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[Kevin McHale]

Sponsored by Gilead this is Jenna ashkowitz.

[Will Friedle]

And Kevin McHale from and that's what yout really Missed.

[Kevin McHale]

So we both got the same delivery ding dong at our door the other day from Dietz and Watson. Did I not tell you immediately after that we were podcasting that I literally ripped into the packages and was eating the spicy cheese and the prosciutto and.

[Tamra Judge]

I was like, oh, that prosciutto. Give it to me.

[Will Friedle]

I was so excited.

[Kevin McHale]

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[Will Friedle]

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[Kevin McHale]

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[Will Friedle]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Kevin McHale]

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[Will Friedle]

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[Kevin McHale]

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[Will Friedle]

Visit deetsandwatson.com the right way to learn more about the deets difference.

[Tamra Judge]

There was also a skinheads.com article amidst all of this, it was discovered that Sherry had written a racist post against the Hispanic community on a skinhead website under her maiden name, Sherry Graff.

[Sherry Papini]

Prior to or after prior to the.

[Tamra Judge]

Blog entry claims Papini was persecuted by Latinos at her high school for being of German descent and that she was white and proud of her her blood and heritage. The post read, I totally agree with skinheads that girls should not fight, they should stand by their men. Being white is my family, my roots, my way of life. It's always there. There's no denying it. It's. It's nobility. It's strength. It will be there to lift me up when I really need my pride, when I need to keep walking. When asked about this post, Sherry denies writing it and claims someone impersonated her.

[Sherry Papini]

Why would someone impersonate her and go on a skinhead website? That's so random.

[Tamra Judge]

It is random, but this is what happens when someone is the type of person who repeatedly lies about everything on October 25, 2017.

[Sherry Papini]

So you find these cases that are very that just leave lots of questions.

[Tamra Judge]

I don't think there's lots of questions. I think that it's not going to.

[Sherry Papini]

Be confusing, this case. It sounds like it's going to be very confusing because you just said she's a liar.

[Tamra Judge]

She's a liar.

[Sherry Papini]

So we shall see.

[Tamra Judge]

So Sherry Papini asks the FBI, can you do a sketch of the two women who abducted me? So she describes them, then they do a sketch and they release it to the media. And it's two Hispanic women, a bigger one and a smaller one, and they both have masks on. Because she claims that they, you know, covered their face for the majority of the time.

[Sherry Papini]

She was like, so she asked for criminal sketch artists?

[Tamra Judge]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

And then she's like, oh, they wore masks.

[Tamra Judge]

Masks, yes.

[Sherry Papini]

I could have drawn that.

[Tamra Judge]

So basically, they do the sketches of these two Hispanic women.

[Sherry Papini]

They basically just.

[Tamra Judge]

Their eyes. It's their eyes and eyebrows. They release it. The media releases it. Like, this is. There's new developments in the Sherry Papini case. The sketch artist has, you know, made these sketches based upon, you know, her detailed account of these two women that abducted her. The day that the sketch artist releases the sketches to the media.

[Emily Simpson]

Is the.

[Tamra Judge]

Same day that the FBI gets back DNA testing from her clothing from when she was abducted. And there's male DNA found in her underwear.

[Sherry Papini]

And is it. Has it been excluded that it's not her husband's or boyfriend's or whoever he is?

[Tamra Judge]

No, it's not. It's not her husband.

[Sherry Papini]

They ruled that out.

[Tamra Judge]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

Okay.

[Tamra Judge]

So in the years following Sherry's return, local investigators as well as the FBI are very skeptical of her claims. So they continue their search and investigation into her.

[Sherry Papini]

Because if she got beaten, there'd be some female deal DNA you'd pro. You'd assume.

[Tamra Judge]

Yeah, but they don't find any female DNA. They only find male DNA. Not her husband.

[Sherry Papini]

Multiple males or one?

[Tamra Judge]

No, one male.

[Sherry Papini]

Okay.

[Tamra Judge]

The DNA evidence did not match her story. Investigators found male DNA on her clothing and belongings. Despite her claim that she was abducted by two women. The DNA did not match her husband or any suspect until it was later matched to her ex boyfriend, James Raye Case.

[Sherry Papini]

Wait, how did they make that connection, though?

[Tamra Judge]

They did. I don't know. They ran it through CODIS or whatever. It took a while.

[Sherry Papini]

He's in the system.

[Tamra Judge]

Well, no, it. Or no, maybe it wasn't codis. I don't know. It says familia Familial D. Oh, maybe they.

[Sherry Papini]

Maybe they voluntarily, like, gave their DNA.

[Tamra Judge]

Well, he. I'm sure he gave up his DNA, so.

[Sherry Papini]

Okay.

[Tamra Judge]

The lack of forensic evidence supporting the abduction. There were no tire tracks, fingerprints of surveillance footage, or physical signs of an abduction were found where she allegedly disappeared. And also, I know the FBI investigator also made the claim that they were very suspicious of her from the very beginning. Because when they found the cell phone and the headphones, apparently, like her earplugs or whatever they were, were wrapped up neatly and, like, laying on top of the cell phone. And the cell phone was lying on the ground. And then there were some blonde hairs that were kind of stuck into the earbuds.

[Sherry Papini]

Like, someone pulls up to kidnap her, and she's like, hold on one sec. She rolls up her earbuds.

[Tamra Judge]

Yes, that's the phone.

[Sherry Papini]

And sets it neatly down y.

[Tamra Judge]

Her Phone. He actually, before he picked up her phone, he took a picture of it.

[Sherry Papini]

That's even weirder.

[Tamra Judge]

Why is that weird?

[Sherry Papini]

I never took a picture of your phone when I found it.

[Tamra Judge]

I don't know. I guess because it was evidence and he didn't want to pick it up unless he took a photo of how it was sitting there. So he. He takes photos.

[Sherry Papini]

He might be in on it. We'll find out.

[Tamra Judge]

No, he's not. He's not in it.

[Sherry Papini]

No. No.

[Tamra Judge]

Unusual branding. The forensic expert suggests the exodus branding looked deliberate and controlled, not consistent with a panicked act of violence. I guess. You know, I understand that too. If. If they're trying to brand her and she's like, captive and all these things, wouldn't you be moving around? I think it just was very neatly done. It looked like she just.

[Sherry Papini]

I don't know. As neat as her earbuds being wrapped up.

[Tamra Judge]

Yes. They found on her Pinterest page that the same wooden tools that were used to brand her back were part of her Pinterest page.

[Sherry Papini]

Did they check her Amazon account and she purchased, like a branding kit.

[Tamra Judge]

She didn't purchase them. James Reyes purchased them.

[Sherry Papini]

Oh, really?

[Tamra Judge]

Yes. Oh, and he had the receipt for it.

[Sherry Papini]

Wait, so why are we bothered about. Okay, so she wanted to go away and get branded by her ex boyfriend or whatever. What's the. What's the issue?

[Tamra Judge]

Because she said to. She said two Hispanic women abducted her.

[Sherry Papini]

Right, Right.

[Tamra Judge]

The theory is. Or what. What it comes down to is that Reyes is her ex boyfriend and she was having. And she calls an emotional affair with him. They got burner phones and they were communicating. Then he comes from. He lives in Costa Mesa. He drives from Costa Mesa to Reading.

[Sherry Papini]

And he picks up emotional affair. Me.

[Tamra Judge]

She's trying to say she didn't have sex with him.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, well, so was it emotional DNA they found on her underwear?

[Tamra Judge]

Yes, it was an emotional DNA on her underwear. Right.

[Sherry Papini]

Very. Well, keep going.

[Tamra Judge]

So they finally figure out, because they don't believe her story, the two Hispanic women, the mass. The. The getting picked up on Thanksgiving and where would.

[Sherry Papini]

Where city did they find her in? Same city.

[Tamra Judge]

No, they found her 150 miles away.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, that's what I thought. Wasn't it down here in Costa Mesa or something?

[Tamra Judge]

No, she was. James Reyes lived in Costa Mesa and that's where she spent the 22 days in Costa Mesa that I remember. Then he drove her, I don't know, 100, like, towards reading and then dropped her off on the side of the road.

[Sherry Papini]

That's enough. Emotions for the weekend with a chain.

[Tamra Judge]

On and zip ties. She gets out of the car. I think there's actually surveillance of her running without the zip ties. And then when they, and then when the police come, then find her, she's zip tied, cable ties, cable ties, whatever they're called. And so basically what happens was they didn't believe her story from the beginning. So they're investigating her the whole time. Even though they're not telling her they're investigating her. They just keep interviewing her and interviewing.

[Sherry Papini]

The husband, appeasing her. So she just divulges all this information.

[Tamra Judge]

While the whole time the FBI is like, this is a bunch of crap. And they're investigating her without telling her. So they find the DNA, they link it to James Reyes. The police go to Costa Mesa and they interview him. And you can see he, they don't show him on camera. He clearly did not agree to show his image.

[Sherry Papini]

This is body cams or something.

[Tamra Judge]

Yeah, they show body cams and they show audio. I mean, not show, but you can hear audio. But they don't show his face on.

[Sherry Papini]

Camera because he's just a witness at this point.

[Tamra Judge]

Well, and what he says is that she asked him to come and pick her up because her husband's abusive and she wants to get out of the marriage. So in his eyes, or the way he explains it is he's just helping this girl out. So he comes and he picks her up, he takes her to Costa Mesa, then she stays for 22 days in his house.

[Sherry Papini]

He probably can't stand her, I don't know.

[Tamra Judge]

But he claims that all the physical things, all the harm, the bruises, everything, it was self inflicted. That she did it to herself or that she directed him to do it. I guess he was a hockey player and she told him to hit her with a hockey puck and he broke her nose.

[Sherry Papini]

Like she liked it or like to set up her.

[Tamra Judge]

To set, to set up her story. I guess that's how, that's how much.

[Sherry Papini]

But then he's a psycho too, because it's like, oh, let me go help this woman. Woman, what do you need? You need me to smack you in the face with a hockey puck?

[Tamra Judge]

I agree. I don't understand for one second why this James Reyes guy goes along with this.

[Sherry Papini]

Probably because he, he initially tried to save her and help her and then, you know, get emotional with her. And then they come down to Costa Mesa and then he realized she's psycho. And then she says, well, let me, let me like complete the story. And you have, I'VE been abducted. So hit me in the face. And he's like, gladly, because she's psycho. And then he tied her up and dumped her. Dumped her off. And he wants nothing to do with her anymore.

[Tamra Judge]

Yeah, I mean, I would say that. I would say that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah. I mean, if she was nice and pleasant, I don't think he would hit her in the face with a hockey buck.

[Tamra Judge]

One, he goes along with this story. Two, when they interview him, he does not seem to be highly intelligent at all. He seems very like, wasn't there receipts.

[Sherry Papini]

For a hotel, too? Did they stay in a hotel or his place?

[Tamra Judge]

Place. No, they stayed at his home. There was a receipt for him buying the wood burning tools he had that. He's like, look, here's a receipt. She told me to buy it. And I think that they're. They don't. The FBI doesn't give you a lot of information in these interviews that they do. They're very careful about their tools and tactics. Yeah. Behind the scenes.

[Sherry Papini]

Well, that way then she could say something that might conflict with what they found, and then that would be more suspicious.

[Tamra Judge]

Right. But I'm just saying, even when they talk about it after the fact. Fact. Even giving interviews after the fact, they don't give away a lot of information about how they knew James was manipulated by her. I know he passed, you know, a lie detector test. We'll talk later about her, because she takes one later. But I just. I don't. I feel like he's almost so simple, like he's not highly intelligent, that he just went along with this crazy scheme. Because who in their right mind has someone stay with them for 22 days when they have a wife, when they have a husband and young children, and then goes along with physically abusing them and then goes along with dumping them on the side of the road and doesn't think that that looks bad for them.

[Sherry Papini]

It really makes my life feel very boring.

[Tamra Judge]

Yeah. You're like.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, like, you know, like those. And he's probably less stressed than I am in his life.

[Tamra Judge]

Probably.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah.

[Tamra Judge]

So after they found James's DNA, this was in August of 2020. The FBI contacted and questioned James Reyes at his home in Costa Me. And let's just talk about what he told the investigators. He says that Papini had reached out to him. He confirmed that he and Papini had previously dated in the early 2000s. They were in constant communication via burner phones. Months before her disappearance, she tell him she needed to escape her abusive marriage and start over. He agreed to help her and picked her up in reading, driving her 600 miles south to his apartment in Costa Mesa. He claims she was never kidnapped. Reyes said that Papini stayed willingly in his apartment for the entire 22 days that she was missing. He described her as staying mostly inside, doing household chores, watching TV and exercising. He claimed she even watched the news coverage of her own disappearance. Injuries were self inflicted or assisted by him. Reyes admitted to helping her create some of the injuries, including holding a hockey stick so she could run into it and purposefully causing bruises. Branding her shoulder using a wood burning tool was at her request. She says later in an interview to kind of, to, I don't know, get past the wood burning thing, because, you know, I told you those wood burning tools were on her own Pinterest page. The way she explains it after the fact is, she says, oh, well, when he kidnapped me, we were having a conversation and I was telling him about how I was making these handcrafted Christmas cards with wood burning tools. And he was so interested in it that he went out and bought some and branded my, you know, my shoulder. I mean, do you really think she's in Costa Mesa with James Reyes talking about how she makes Christmas cards for her kids?

[Sherry Papini]

No, she's watching the coverage of her own abduction.

[Tamra Judge]

Right. Security cameras show Papini running through an empty parking lot towards the highway on Thanksgiving morning. In the footage, her hands are not tied together. She is running normally. However, when a driver found her on the side of the road, they were zip tied and she was wearing a chain around her window. Waste. She's like, don't forget to bring the zip ties and chain. I'll just put them in a. I'll just. I'll hang on to them. And then right before the police come, I'll just put them on myself.

[Sherry Papini]

Cable ties.

[Tamra Judge]

I've always said zip ties. Are they not zip ties?

[Sherry Papini]

Cable ties.

[Tamra Judge]

Okay. Reyes cooperated fully with the FBI. He consented to DNA collection, provided text messages, and allowed investigators to search his apartment. He passed the polygraph test, and authorities confirmed no charges were filed against against him, as he had no criminal intent and was considered a cooperating witness. All right, so his account directly contradicted everything Papini had told law enforcement. And investigators now had a motive, a means, and the evidence, which was the DNA, the phone records, and the injury creation, and that she'd faked her own abduction. The DOJ said Reyes cooperation was truthful, consistent, and corroborated by physical evidence. So the FBI is slowly building their case from 2020 to 2022. Investigators kept the case quiet for nearly two years. We talked about that, how they continue to talk to Papini, have interviews with her, but obviously they don't give away any information that they're investigating this as a kidnapping hoax.

[Sherry Papini]

No, let it, let her say anything she wants.

[Tamra Judge]

Right? They confirm inconsistency in her interviews. They track how she spent a hundred thousand plus dollars of victim funds, disability payments and GoFundMe donations. Donations.

[Sherry Papini]

That's why those gunfund me things are. People are way too quick to just set them up and give people money. And it's like there's probably a lot of scammers on there.

[Tamra Judge]

Well, she got disability because so she's taking disability. She also received money from like a California victims fund. And then also clearly the state or the city or whoever pays for it. Taxpayers pay for her for the search efforts. So they build a case against her for mail fraud, which are the benefits that she received and false statement which is lying to Federal Agents. On March 3rd of 2022, Sherry Papini is arrested while attending her children's music lessons. The charges against her are mail fraud and making false statements to federal officers. The FBI released a 44 page affidavit outlining all her planning with Reyes, her false statements about the two Hispanic women and her misuse of victim compensation funds. On April 18th of 2022, Sherry Papini pleaded guilty to one count of mail fraud and one count of making false statements. Now I know I, they do an interview with her attorney and she makes it like, and when, when she talks about the allegations against her and when they arrest her, she does this very woe is me. I don't even understand what's going on. I don't even understand why I'm in, in jail. I don't understand anything against me. And she talks about how like someone else in, in jail with her had to explain the charges to her because she didn't even understand what was going on. I just felt like when she talks she does a very good job of doing this like victim role. She's very good at that.

[Emily Simpson]

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[Tamra Judge]

Honestly, honestly, Honestly.

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[Tamra Judge]

Here's just something else I want to talk about because if you watch A Perfect Wife or maybe even in the in her recent interview after she was married to Keith, I'm not sure how long after, but she got caught texting other men and she has a little history of. Well, she has a history of what she calls always having these emotional affairs. And I like how she calls them emotional affairs so that she's never actually admitting that she has sex with any of these other men. It's basically like Keith was so terrible to her and he was so awful and he wouldn't even talk to her and he was controlling and abusive and all these things that she claims that she always had to have these emotional affairs with other men and she would save, you know, these other guys numbers with like a female name so she probably had like Jane and you know, Lori and all these people that she was texting with that. But they were men. Anyway, Keith finds out that she's been having these, you know, emotional affairs, as she calls them, with other men. And he makes her sign a post nuptial agreement after they've been married for a while.

[Sherry Papini]

This is prior to pre kidnapping.

[Tamra Judge]

This is pre kidnapping. So I didn't read. I tried to find the postnuptial agreement. They actually show it a little bit on the four part series where she does an interview.

[Sherry Papini]

But does he have money or something?

[Tamra Judge]

I don't think they have a lot of money. They seem just very middle class to me. He's like an audio visual specialist for Best Buy and she's a stay at home mom.

[Sherry Papini]

Okay.

[Tamra Judge]

So basically after he finds out that she's having, you know, these emotional affairs and she's texting other men, he makes her sign a post nuptial agreement.

[Sherry Papini]

Why does he just make her agree not to have these emotional affairs like.

[Tamra Judge]

A post non emotional affair agreement? So she signs this post nuptial agreement. It's completely one sided. It's basically says if she's caught.

[Sherry Papini]

Well, it's probably not even valid. I bet he just drafted himself and said here, sign this.

[Tamra Judge]

Right.

[Sherry Papini]

Which you can't do. Both sides need to have an attorney. Even if she says I don't want an attorney, she kind of has to have an attorney to make it valid.

[Tamra Judge]

Well, I actually read in a prenuptial agreement both people have to have representation. But for some reason in a postnuptial it doesn't say that you have to have representation. It says that, that it can't be one sided. That and it can't be unconscionable.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, but.

[Tamra Judge]

And it recommends that you.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, you better have an attorney. Yeah. So he should have made sure she had an attorney so she can't later say, well, I didn't know what was going on.

[Tamra Judge]

Well, the thing that is interesting to me is that they make a big deal about this post nuptial agreement, about how one sided it was. And in my mind I'm thinking it wouldn't even be enforceable. Everybody's making it like, like he forced her to sign it.

[Sherry Papini]

Well, what's that matter in this whole scheme of things anyway?

[Tamra Judge]

Well, to me I think the post nuptial agreement is very important because I feel as if she wanted to have an affair with James Reyes, but the only way she could have an affair is to make it look like a kidnapping hoax. So that the postnuptial agreement wouldn't come into effect. Because basically he made her sign a very one sided agreement.

[Sherry Papini]

Did the post natural agreement taps and they do an affair.

[Tamra Judge]

Yes, he made her sign it.

[Sherry Papini]

You can't do that stuff anyway. Sorry? You can't do that stuff anyway. You can't be like, if you cheat on me, you don't get this money. It doesn't work.

[Tamra Judge]

Like that's why I'm saying this postn nuptial agreement that he made her sign was basically you. If you cheat on me, if you talk to other men, if you have affairs, you get nothing, you get no money, you leave with nothing.

[Sherry Papini]

Or if you stage a kidnapping.

[Tamra Judge]

Yeah, he forgot to add that part to the post.

[Sherry Papini]

Not any emotional affairs is if there's any male DNA found on you in your underwear. Yes.

[Tamra Judge]

So to me I feel as if the post nuptial agreement is very interesting because I feel as if she created this whole kidnapping hoax in order to have an affair with her ex boyfriend. And if she did get caught, then she just blames it on a kidnapping hoax so that she's not actually having an affair with her ex boyfriend so that the postnuptial agreement doesn't come into effect and he gets to take the kids and all the money and everything. Even though, let's be honest, this post nuptial agreement wouldn't be valid anyway.

[Sherry Papini]

In her eyes. It's valid.

[Tamra Judge]

Right. But she clearly thinks it's valid.

[Sherry Papini]

But you're just guessing all this.

[Tamra Judge]

I'm just putting, I'm just putting.

[Sherry Papini]

This is your theory.

[Tamra Judge]

My theory is that she, she signed.

[Sherry Papini]

The agreement and then she tried to abide by it.

[Tamra Judge]

And then she tried to abide by it by thinking I want to have an affair with my ex. Ex boyfriend. An emotional affair, and I'm going to do it. However, I can't get caught having an affair so I have to make it look like a kidnapping. Okay, so there you go. That's just my, my thoughts on that.

[Sherry Papini]

Her commitment to having affairs is right.

[Tamra Judge]

It is, right?

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah.

[Tamra Judge]

I remember when they do the four part interview where she speaks up and she now claims that it was a kidnapping. So that's where we're at now, current, like at present day.

[Sherry Papini]

Well, so she still admits it's a or she still sticks to the story. That's the kidnapping.

[Tamra Judge]

No. So she was arrested and for the kidnapping hoax.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah.

[Tamra Judge]

She signs a plea agreement with very specific language basically saying that she planned a hoax, that it was a fake kidnapping. She signs it and then she's sentenced to, I believe, two years in prison. She's released from prison.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah.

[Tamra Judge]

Now that she's released from prison, here we are in present day and now she's doing interviews and she's saying, you know what, it wasn't a kidnapping hoax. I was abducted. So that's where we're at today. She's now recanting.

[Sherry Papini]

Well, what's it matter? You already served your time, lady.

[Tamra Judge]

I don't know.

[Sherry Papini]

But she claims she married to this guy still.

[Tamra Judge]

No, he filed for divorce after she.

[Sherry Papini]

Was the post nuptial enforceable in the divorce proceeding.

[Tamra Judge]

I don't know. They don't. They, they do an interview with her family law attorney, which is entertaining. She's very entertaining.

[Sherry Papini]

Does she have access to those kids? I wouldn't want her to have access to those kids.

[Tamra Judge]

No, currently she does.

[Sherry Papini]

Not without supervised visitation.

[Tamra Judge]

No. She's fighting for. That's interesting because that's where we're at currently is she's now recanting the kidnapping hoax and saying that she was abducted by James. She's claiming that she lied about it because I guess because she was scared of him or she didn't want her husband to know she was having an affair, so she made up the two Hispanic women. She doesn't want her husband or anyone to know that she was with James. So she claims she was abducted by two Hispanic women. Then when they found. When the FBI says we know it was James because his DNA is in your underwear and we've interviewed him, then she says, oh, well, I said it was James's mom. And I described James's mom. So it would lead you to James without me actually saying it was James. And now that she's out of prison, she's saying it wasn't a kidnapping hoax. Hoax. It really was James. But then I felt the FBI investigator said, which I found funny. He goes, he said, well, James Reyes, his mom was Irish or something like that. Like she wasn't Hispanic. Yeah, she wasn't Hispanic.

[Sherry Papini]

Anyway, so she wasn't big or small.

[Tamra Judge]

She was and she wasn't. And she wasn't Hispanic.

[Sherry Papini]

Well, why are we, why are they even entertaining whatever she has to say anyway now?

[Tamra Judge]

Yeah, I, you know, that's not.

[Sherry Papini]

Maybe the public because she's speaking about it. It's interesting, but, but like why is law enforcement bothering with her? They shouldn't be.

[Tamra Judge]

Well, they're not. Now she's been released from prison and, and they're not spy on parole. But here's the thing. Now she's Doing all these interviews. So now she did this interview with Investigation Discovery. They made a four part series about her. She went on Nick Vile, the Vile Files. And she's doubling down on.

[Sherry Papini]

I wonder if they believed her or.

[Tamra Judge]

What they thought her story that it. It was a real abduction.

[Sherry Papini]

So we get her on here and we call her out.

[Tamra Judge]

You want to get Sherry Papini? Can we make that happen? Let's make. Sherry, I would love for you to do an interview with Shane Simpson.

[Sherry Papini]

I would. There's so many holes in her story, it's ridiculous.

[Tamra Judge]

So Sherry pleaded guilty to one count of mail fraud, one count of making false statements and she was sentenced to 18. Okay. It was 18 months in prison and agreed to pay 309.686.33 in restitution. This was the breakdown. She took $30,694 from the California Victim Compensation Board. She took 127. 783 from the Social Security Administration for benefits. 148, 000 to the Shasta County Sheriff's Office for the cost of investigating the case and 25 $58 to the FBI for the government sentencing or to the FBI for their her role in it. Doesn't seem like a lot. $2500 to the FBI? I don't know. But anyway, that's where they got the breakdown of what her restitution was which.

[Sherry Papini]

Was a total entities Sherry without money like that, without. I mean she was able to bamboozle them and get all that money?

[Tamra Judge]

Well, she got money from the California Victim Compensation and then she got money from the Social Security Administration offices for benefits because she said she's disabled just.

[Sherry Papini]

To hand out six figures like that.

[Tamra Judge]

So Sherry Papini is released from prison after serving about 11 months in a federal facility. She was released to a residential re entry center, then placed on supervised probation.

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[Tamra Judge]

So what has she been doing from 2023 to currently she lost custody of her two children and who now live with her ex husband Keith. She began telling a revised version of the story, claiming Ray psychologically manipulated her and that she was trapped in 2024-2025. Her new claims were featured in Perfect Wife, which I told you guys to watch, and Caught in the Lie, which is the new one on hbo, which is her most recent interview. And then I guess she has a self published memoir. Sherry Papini doesn't exist. And then she did the Vile Files podcast. So that's where she's out speaking now. Also, this was another thing that was in this new documentary is she takes a polygraph and I thought for sure that she was going to fail this polygraph because clearly what they asked her. So Sherry and James both took polygraphs and both paths, despite their stories contradicting one another.

[Sherry Papini]

But that's not enough for me. What did they ask her? You may not know, but that's what I'm saying.

[Tamra Judge]

No, I do, I do know the questions that she passed. I'll tell you, tell you. First of all, she failed some of the questions and she passed some of the questions. The ones that she passed though were the ones that were the most important because they go to the heart of this story that she's now telling. So among the questions she was asked while at James House in 2016, were you free to leave at any time without fear of violence and did you ask James to brand you? She answered no to both of those questions and she passed them. Them also. I don't know. Maybe that's a too, too much compounded sentence.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It matters what they ask.

[Tamra Judge]

Were you free to leave at any time without fear of violence? I don't know. I mean, maybe that's just too convoluted. It's just instead of just asking were you free to leave?

[Sherry Papini]

Right.

[Tamra Judge]

You know, like, I think they made the questions too complicated.

[Sherry Papini]

Right.

[Tamra Judge]

Also, I was also thinking that maybe she passed because there's been a long period of time, time since the kidnapping to when she took this lie detector.

[Sherry Papini]

Test and who administered lighting her test, like who. Who was it that set it up? Did she just do it on her own?

[Tamra Judge]

She did it through this new interview. This interview that she did. So I don't know because she did it on camera.

[Sherry Papini]

The second question you referenced, did you.

[Tamra Judge]

Ask James to brand you? Which is very straightforward. She said no and she passed that maybe she didn't ask him. Maybe she just gave him the branding tool.

[Sherry Papini]

That's what I'm saying. It matters on how they ask. There should be follow up questions. There may very well be been.

[Tamra Judge]

Yeah, there were other questions that she was asked that she did not pass.

[Sherry Papini]

Do polygraph questions. Are they only. Are they mostly yes, no questions?

[Tamra Judge]

Well, I don't.

[Sherry Papini]

Or, or like factual, like a date or something. Or can it be. How did you get the branding?

[Tamra Judge]

I think you're supposed to make the questions as simplistic as possible with, with yes, no answers because what the. What's. What it's reading is a physical response. But my thought was this kidnapping happened in 2016. Here she is in 2025 taking a lie detector test. Test. Does the passage of time make a difference on a physical response? Maybe she's told this story so many times at this point.

[Sherry Papini]

But you know what? Even if she's even those questions are accurately answered, it doesn't and it doesn't help with anything. It's a mess. Was she. Wasn't she under what turn? I mean, it doesn't make any sense.

[Tamra Judge]

Right.

[Sherry Papini]

It's still a mess.

[Tamra Judge]

Right.

[Sherry Papini]

Doesn't solve the case.

[Tamra Judge]

I don't think there's any solving it. I think what it comes down to is I think she's a known liar and narcissist and sociopath. I think that she. She. The fact that they had burner phones and they were communicating, she and James.

[Sherry Papini]

Well, it's anyone that says they're having an emotional affair right there, they're cheating, they're lying.

[Tamra Judge]

And the fact that she's returned on Thanksgiving Day, she didn't pick her kids up from daycare that day. I mean, I don't know. To me, it just seems like it was concocted by her. It was her way of having an affair without her husband knowing that she was having affair. It was an elaborate scheme. I think she lies a lot. I think she's a master at lying. Her interview. There were several parts of her interview that really bothered me. In this newest interview that she did, There was one part where she looks directly at the camera when she's talking to the producer because the producer says something like, why did you lie? And she looks right at the camera and she goes, haven't you lied? Haven't you lied? Have you ever in your life lied? And I remember sitting there looking at her and thinking, yeah, I'm sure all of us a little bit like, I'll tell Annabelle that, you know, we don't have any cookies left. I remember telling the boys that McDonald's was closed, right?

[Sherry Papini]

You come home and I say, where were you? And like, oh, I was kidnapped, right? This guy I was having an emotional affair with.

[Tamra Judge]

Right. I just. I thought, wow, the nerve of this woman to look directly in the camera at us, out here, the audience, and say, haven't you ever lied?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, then the answer is, yes, she did. Did. That's what she's saying?

[Tamra Judge]

Well, yeah, exactly. Well, she did. Well, she's saying she lied about the kidnapping.

[Sherry Papini]

I don't know. So, you know, of all things, what gets to me is I wake up worried, stressed about my day, bills getting paid, this and that. And these people live just one day at a time.

[Tamra Judge]

They live one. One kidnapping hoax at a time.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah.

[Tamra Judge]

One lie detector test at a time.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, she's got. She probably has way less stress than I do.

[Tamra Judge]

Probably. Sherry claims that James passed the lie detector test because he's a sociopath, not her. Yeah, it's not her. She's not the sociopath. It's James. He's the sociopath. Keith Papini claims that his daughter Violet and said Sherry would force her children to inhale cotton swabs drenched in rubbing alcohol when they were sick to make them even more sick. Sherry denies this, claiming she gave her children essential oils when they were sick because they were allergic to V. Vicks. That was one of the things he said in the documentary. If you watch the Perfect Wife. At the very end he talks about how his children said that she would soak like cotton balls and alcohol and then tie it around their neck. I don't know if there's any truth to that. I have no idea. It doesn't make any sense that you would tie anything around a child's neck. I don't care if it's essential oils or if it's alcohol. It all seems very odd to me. Sherry's therapist, family lawyer and sister in law whose name is Suzanne, that's Keith's biological sister, all believe her story. First of all, when you talk about, let me just say this. If you guys watch the four part documentary of her recent interview, they do interview her therapist. Her therapist annoys me. He believes everything this woman says.

[Sherry Papini]

And see, it's a male. And you're willing to say you don't like him. Why didn't you just call him entertaining?

[Tamra Judge]

No, I don't like him. I don't like him at all. Because this is what I think. I think so many people find a therapist that they. A yes therapist, A yes therapist, someone that they can manipulate, that they can just tell all their, their side of the story. And then the therapist is like, those people are wrong. They shouldn't treat you like that. You're right. Do you really get anything out of therapy if you just find someone that just goes along with everything that you're saying and they can't discern between delusion and fact and lies. And I don't know, I just didn't like the therapist. I felt that like the therapist just enabled her by saying that you know everything she said. And the reason she lies is because she has trauma. And when you have a lot of trauma, you just lie about things because you can't really remember what happened anyway because there was trauma. I don't know. In Sherry's HBO docu series, this is the most recent one, her mother, who was supposedly on her side, explicitly said the incident was not a kidnapping. Sherry writes this off as her mother being confused and also the editing, twisting things around. I love when people blame the Editing that happens on housewives too. Everyone, for their bad behavior, always likes to blame the editing. I like when people, like, after an episode comes out and everyone's like, I didn't. It wasn't me. It was the editing. Keith Papini still retains custody of their two children. Sher is allowed one supervised visit per month, lasting about one hour. She's allowed weekly calls with the children at Keith's discretion. However, Sherry claims she's only seen her children three times since being out of prison. Also, there's another three in her this most recent docu series. She records herself having a phone call with her children. I guess she gets to talk to them on Sundays. So she sets up the camera and she records herself having a conversation with her kids. She's so dramatic. She. She's overly like, oh, baby, tell me more. Oh, my gosh, I love that. Tell me so much.

[Sherry Papini]

She's acting up for the camera.

[Tamra Judge]

Yeah. Yes. Then she hangs up with her children, and then she screams and is, like, grabbing her head and she's all dramatic and she's sobbing and sobbing.

[Sherry Papini]

What? That she can't see the kids, right?

[Tamra Judge]

That she gets the one weekly phone call with them. And I'm just so. I am so turned off by people who set up a phone to record themselves and then record themselves having this over the top, dramatic, ridiculous, you know, response. And then they give it to the producers and they're like, here, here, here. Here's what.

[Sherry Papini]

There's a lot of celebrities here.

[Tamra Judge]

Please show this. This is what happens, you know, when I only get a weekly call with my children, you know, I cry and scream and I act dramatic.

[Sherry Papini]

I know there's people that do that. It's ridiculous.

[Tamra Judge]

And then there's also another scene where I guess Keith comes over to where she's living and he wants her to sign custody of the children over, and she secretly records the him. So she has the phone, she, like, puts it under the bed. She records him, and then they play this audio. And I'm thinking, if you're trying to make this guy look bad, I actually agree with him. He goes over and he's like, let's just do this the easy way without having to pay attorneys and things like, why don't you just sign the kids over to me? This is when she's going to prison. She signed a plea deal. She's going to prison. And she records it as if she's catching him, you know, being mean and being abusive to her. But let's be honest, she knows that she's recording the conversation. So she's very calm and she says everything correctly and all it does is catch him saying that. That she can do this the easy way or the hard way. She can either sign over custody of the kids or they can fight for custody and she's going to federal prison. So again, I felt like that was a manipulation tactic of her trying to make this guy look bad and controlling and abusive and all these things. But anyway, I just found her behavior to be the manipulative behavior. But anyway. All right, are we gonna talk about.

[Sherry Papini]

Her more or is this. Is she like done?

[Tamra Judge]

Well, I don't. I mean, I don't know. It depends on if she has any.

[Sherry Papini]

She comes up with another version.

[Tamra Judge]

She has more docu series explain. And trying to say that she it now was a kidnapping hoax. I don't know. I mean who knows? This woman's all over the place. I don't trust anything that she says. And no, I do believe the kids are safer with their father. At least I feel like they have some stability with him. And I do know that she has a current family law case where she is trying to get more custody. I mean we can see what happens with that.

[Sherry Papini]

But she'll get some visitation and then they'll be aged out and then that'll be the end of that.

[Tamra Judge]

Anyway, we did our best to try to fit that story into an hour. It's very complex. There's a lot of other things that happen. I would suggest if you find Sherry Papini's case interesting to go back and watch A perfect wife on Hulu and then watch her four part recent series. It's on. It's on Max. So thank you for listening to our Sherry Papini case.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, thank you Sherry Papini to get for giving us something to talk about. And you are a nut. Just good luck with your life.

[Tamra Judge]

Tell it like it is. Shane. Thanks guys.

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