Legally Brunette: The Amanda Knox Interview

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Two Ts In A Pod — "Legally Brunette: The Amanda Knox Interview"

Podcast: Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge
Host: iHeartPodcasts
Guest: Amanda Knox
Episode: Legally Brunette: The Amanda Knox Interview
Date: September 30, 2025

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Overview

This special episode centers on Amanda Knox, the American who was wrongfully convicted of her roommate's murder in Italy, and her subsequent exoneration. Hosts Emily Simpson and Jane (standing in for Teddi and Tamra) conduct an in-depth discussion with Knox about her ordeal, the aftermath, media ethics, criminal justice reform, and the new Hulu series The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox, co-produced with Monica Lewinsky. The conversation is personal, poignant, and focused on the humanity behind headlines, with particular emphasis on the impact of wrongful convictions and public shaming.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Amanda Knox’s Background and Public Perception

• Amanda Knox’s Summary: Authored books, journalism, public speaking, and criminal justice reform advocacy after her wrongful conviction and imprisonment in Italy (03:33–05:39).
• Media Impact: Knox discusses being defined by a single event—her roommate’s murder. Despite exoneration, she's continually confronted by the public’s perception.
  "To this day, I’m still the girl accused of murder… It’s very likely to be the only thing anybody knows me for." (18:07, Amanda)

The Hulu Series: The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox

• Unique Perspective: Knox describes being an active creative partner in the series, alongside Monica Lewinsky and showrunner K.J. Steinberg, contrasting it with previous true-crime documentaries that focus on the case over the people (06:30–09:46).
• Humanizing the Story: The show includes nuanced stories, such as Amanda’s evolving relationship with her prosecutor, and the devastating impact on family.
  • "What the Hulu series attempts to do... there are human stories you wouldn’t otherwise get." (07:36, Amanda)
  • "Even just how much of the story is my mom’s story…" (11:54, Amanda)
• Cast and Representation: Grace Van Patten portrays Amanda, with Van Patten’s real-life sister acting as Amanda’s sister, providing authenticity. (27:32–28:12)

Amanda’s Relationship with Monica Lewinsky

• Origin of Collaboration: Knox met Lewinsky at a “controversy” conference in 2017, reaching out due to their shared experiences with public shaming (16:29–22:14).
• Building the Show: Inspired by Lewinsky's journey producing Impeachment, she encouraged Amanda to take control of her story (22:19–24:18).
  • "She wanted to… pave the path for another person to come behind her. That was me." (21:52, Amanda)

Details of Knox’s Legal Journey in Italy

• Italian Legal System: Amanda explains the “ping-pong” of trial verdicts due to the Italian system allowing both defense and prosecution to appeal (24:21–25:42).
  • Four verdicts across eight years, with the constant threat of extradition (24:42, Amanda).
  • Tragic Irony: Even the Supreme Court’s final exoneration left ambiguous language about Amanda’s role, leading to lingering suspicion (26:10–26:35).
  • "The verdict left open the possibility that I might have been home when the crime occurred… If not legal, a liar implies it." (26:10–27:20, Amanda)

Relationships Post-Exoneration: Meeting Her Prosecutor

• Reaching Out: Amanda recounts initiating contact with her former prosecutor, driven by a need for closure rather than apology. Their correspondence lasted two years before they met in person (29:09–33:06).
• Depth of Encounter: Both maintained a complex, unresolved relationship, prioritizing mutual understanding over animosity (34:03–34:55).
  • "There is something that happens outside of the courtroom which is this… universal need for connection, for understanding." (34:03, Amanda)
• On Apologies: Amanda still hasn’t received direct apologies from those most responsible (65:13–65:16).
  • "Lots of people owe me apologies… the people who have apologized are the ones least involved." (63:21, Amanda)

Wrongful Convictions & False Confessions

• Pattern in Interrogations: Knox describes how police pressure, sleep deprivation, and techniques common in both Italy and the U.S. lead to false confessions—even when evidence later disproves involvement (41:45–45:51).
  • "If in one in four murder cases… they start making false admissions… there is something deeply, deeply wrong with the way that we interrogate people." (43:15, Amanda)
• Advice for Interrogations:
  • “Admit nothing, deny everything, and demand proof.” (48:29, Jane)
  • "Try explaining that to someone whose friend's just been murdered… I had every reason to want to cooperate with the police." (48:35, Amanda)

The True Perpetrator: Rudy Guede

• Media Silence: Despite overwhelming evidence against Rudy Guede, his criminal trial received sparse media coverage compared to Knox’s—leading to widespread public ignorance about the case’s factual resolution (54:48–57:27).
  • "There’s no press coverage. And to this day, people say, 'Did they find the person who actually did it?' The media had no interest in people knowing." (56:03, Emily)
  • "He is not the person who is known for Meredith’s death. And that’s obscene." (58:11–59:41, Amanda)

Media Ethics & Public Shaming

• Failures of Journalism: The hosts and Amanda criticize the press for sensationalism, fabrications, and unethical practices.
  • Notoriously, journalist Nick Pisa was mentioned for writing two outcome-based stories before the verdict.
  • “He is not doing journalism; he’s just fabricating.” (61:51, Amanda)
• Apologies and Accountability: Few involved journalists or officials have apologized.
  • "The system is against those of us who are victims of the criminal justice system… everything and everyone wants it to be our fault." (50:17, Amanda)

Life After Exoneration & Activism

• Advocacy Role: Amanda uses her experience to campaign for criminal justice reform in the U.S., specifically regarding interrogation practices and wrongful convictions (69:17).
  • "As long as my voice and my story can help do that, I will keep doing that." (69:17, Amanda)
• Personal Growth: Emphasizes transition from “dark stuff” to using her history as “fertilizer” for creativity and advocacy (68:02–69:03).
• Motherhood’s Influence: Becoming a mom empowers Knox to fight for a better world for her children (70:11–70:27).
  • "You have to make the world better for them." (70:16, Amanda)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Amanda on Defining Her Life Post-Trial:
  "Even after I was freed, I wasn't free. My entire adult life has been pushing back against false narratives and trying to find myself on my own terms." (23:14, Amanda)
• On Her Mother’s Ordeal:
  "What my mom went through was worse than what I went through. She would have traded places with me in prison in a second." (12:34, Amanda)
• On False Confession:
  "I believed them…I started to think that I was crazy." (45:47, Amanda)
• On Seeking Human Understanding, Not Revenge:
  "It was more like what I needed to give him. I had something to get off my chest." (32:18, Amanda about her prosecutor)
• On the Media’s Lack of Accountability:
  "He [Rudy Guede] is not the person who is known for Meredith’s death. And that’s obscene." (59:41, Amanda)
• On Moving Forward:
  "I’ve got a lot to say. I’ve learned a lot from this process. …until we convince every single person in the world that I didn’t deserve to be accused of a crime, I will keep explaining it." (69:03, Amanda)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Amanda’s Background & Media Impact: 03:33–05:39, 18:07
• Collaboration with Monica Lewinsky & Series Creation: 16:29–24:18
• Human Elements of the Hulu Series: 06:30–11:54
• Italian Legal System Explanation: 24:21–26:35
• Relationship with Prosecutor: 29:09–34:55, 65:13–65:16
• False Confessions and Interrogations: 41:45–48:35
• The Media’s Role: 54:48–62:17
• Life Beyond the Case / Activism: 68:02–69:42, 70:11–70:27

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode is deeply human, unflinchingly honest, and at times darkly humorous. Amanda Knox reflects candidly on her trauma, growth, and continued public scrutiny, while the hosts bring empathy and personal perspective—particularly on the ordeal faced by Knox’s mother. The show underscores the harm caused by unethical journalism, the frailty of justice systems, and the power of owning one’s narrative, ending with a sense of hope and renewed purpose as Knox channels her pain into advocacy and motherhood.

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Transcript

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[Emily Simpson]

Hi guys. Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunette. I will be your hostess today, Emily Simpson with my co host Jane. And I have to say I am so, so super excited because I am sitting here next to Amanda Knox and I have to tell you, I don't get starstruck very often, like at all. I've been on reality TV for years and years. But sitting across from you is such a full circle mom moment. First of all. Yeah, well, I graduated from law school in 2005 and then everything that happened with you was in 2007, so I followed. You were newly aware, right? I was an attorney, so I was following it. And then I'd say maybe, I don't know how long ago, maybe like six or seven years ago. I went to LA and I saw you speak.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Might have been. It might have. Yeah. It might have been about 10 years ago.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, I'm not sure. I don't remember exactly, but it was for mcle credit and you were speaking somewhere in LA and I went and I just. And I found you so compelling and interesting and I didn't get the opportunity to meet you. And this was prior to doing a podcast and all these things. So having you sitting next to me, I feel like it's just like this, like it was meant to be. Like it's a full circle moment.

[Amanda Knox]

Patience is a match I've been waiting for.

[Emily Simpson]

Amanda was the goal of this podcast.

[Jane (Co-host)]

That she started was to get you on.

[Emily Simpson]

Now I'm done. I don't have to do any more episodes. I'm finished. All right, well, let's just do a little background on you for our viewers or for our listeners. Amanda Knox is an American author, journalist, and public speaker who was wrongfully convicted of murdering her roommate Meredith Kercher while studying abroad in Italy back in 2007. Amanda spent nearly four years in prison before Italy's highest court exonerated her back in 2015. Since her release, Amanda has become an advocate for criminal justice reform and media ethics most recently. And this is important, guys, because if you haven't watched this yet, Amanda teamed up with Monica Lewinsky to produce Hulu's the Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox. And I will have to tell you, I've watched all of it except for the finale episode. It is amazing. Like, it is truly so well done.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah. Because really good.

[Emily Simpson]

I have watched. We were talking about prior to recording this, but we were having a conversation where I said, I've watched every documentary about you that's out there, and I feel like I get pieces here and there, and I learn a little bit more when I watch this documentary or I'll see something else, and I'm like, oh, I didn't know that. And I learned a little bit more. But actually, watching this Hulu series, I feel like I finally have a full picture of everything that happened, of everything you went through. I have a deeper understanding of Rafaeli and who he is and his family and how they were affected. And those are all the things that don't show up in a documentary. So it's truly, truly welcome.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Is this because Amanda was a part of it then?

[Amanda Knox]

So that way we got the full.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Story instead of people trying to put it together. You were actually involved in it, I think.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah, I think that's one aspect to it, and it's something that Monica and I are really trying to push the Hollywood industry to really embrace is the idea that, like, the source can be a. Like, can bring creative input. It's not just there to, like, authenticate everything, but really to have a creative voice. And that's something, you know, that I'm eternally grateful to everyone we worked with on this show that they actually treated me like a legitimate creative partner. And it's true. Like, there's. The show does something that a documentary is not going to do because a documentary is interested in, you know, journalistic, you know, investigation into a case. And so they're focused on the case, and it's less about the humanity of the people who happen to be the subject of those facts. And so what the Hulu series attempts to do is it's going to ping all those true crime fans out there who are interested in the intricacies of the case. It's still there.

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, it's there, absolutely.

[Amanda Knox]

But on top of that, there is human stories that you wouldn't otherwise get. Like that relationship that I developed with my prosecutor, which has nothing to technically to do with the case. It's a personal story to me. Like, as somebody who has gone through this terrible experience, how do I make sense of it and what do I do about it once I finally have my freedom and my agency back that was stolen from me, and so what do I do with it when it's returned to me? And then, you know, there are other aspects of it. Like you mentioned Rafaele, One of my things that was really important to me in depicting this show is like, when Raffaele and I met, like, this was five days before the crime occurred. So, like, we were at the very beginning of, like, what was going to be what, you know, what you see in the. In the romance movies of, like, the blossoming of this, like, beautiful young love relationship. And then we go through this nightmare together and what that does to two young people who care about each other, like, it tears us apart. It puts us back together, but in a completely new way and with all of our broken pieces. And so I'm really excited. I can't wait for you to see the final episode.

[Jane (Co-host)]

It's eight parts.

[Amanda Knox]

It's eight parts. And I co wrote the final episode with the creator and showrunner, K.J. steinberg, who I have to shout out, like, if no one in, like, if no one's heard of K.J. steinberg, I hope everyone recognizes her after this because she was incredible. I mean, you followed the story, you know how convoluted it is and how, like, so many twists and turns and, like, you know, crazy things come up. And she had to, like, really sift through all of that and make sense of it and turn it into something that, again, the true crime fanatics can enjoy, but also just anyone who's a human being could relate to.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, for me, it's the perfect amount of both because I'll tell you, I'm a true crime fanatic. My husband will tell you.

[Jane (Co-host)]

I mean, she has a true crime podcast.

[Emily Simpson]

I do.

[Amanda Knox]

Turns out.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. I mean, I mean, anytime I do watch what happens live or anything, they're like, tell us what reality shows you watch. And I'm like, I don't I watch? I mean, I watch. I didn't reality. I, I watch Forensic Files at night to go to bed. Like, this is what I watch. So for me, your series was so good because it was, it is true crime. I mean, you follow the story from the beginning to the end with the court case with everything going on, so you do satisfy that need. But then when I watch a documentary, I'm always left thinking, well, what happened? Do, do they still talk?

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[Emily Simpson]

What's her, what does her mom think about all of this? I was always wondering about your mom.

[Amanda Knox]

That was Monica's like, like when Monica first reached out to me to do this project, like, her big thing was like, what we think of when we think of a shamed person that's in the public imagination is we only think of that one person. We think of them as like, like this isolated incident and. No, like they're a human being who belongs to people. And the bad stuff that happens to them also happens to everyone that they love who's trying to like, yeah, you're right.

[Jane (Co-host)]

When you see the news or documentary, what you just see someone in shackles, for lack of better words, and you just kind of think it's just them. It's just them that, that's on the stand. Right. But really it's everything else. Everyone around them is shadow.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. And that's why I brought up her mom. Because I think when I watch your series, I have children, so I'm not even relating to you as much as I'm relating to your mother.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

And that's why I feel so deeply connected to her. That's why I asked you. I've never met your mom, but I asked how she was.

[Amanda Knox]

You should get her on the podcast. I would love to have her.

[Emily Simpson]

I would love to have her on.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Because that's a true crime.

[Emily Simpson]

You know, I felt so such a connection to your mother because I thought, I have a daughter, she's 12. And I thought if my daughter is studying abroad, I would do this. I would be on a plane, I would, I would be there. I would be saying all the same things that she's saying and annoying you the same ways that she annoyed you. I would be doing all of those things and I felt I could feel her heart, like how, how horrible that was for her to go through that.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah. You know, that's something that I think people underestimate in this story is like even just how much of the story is my mom's story. Right. Like, okay, I was a 20 year old kid a naive, you know, something really bad happened to me when I'm studying abroad. But like my mom was only 45 when this happened and she also was in a way like this was a growing up experience for my mom as well. Like talk about like the worst thing that you could possibly think. Like like two young girls go to study abroad and only one of them survives. And the one of them that survives is, is in prison and potentially facing the rest of her life in prison.

[Jane (Co-host)]

And so far away. So you feel helpless.

[Amanda Knox]

What do you do? And like, as a mom, as a mom, like I'm a mom now, I know that what my mom went through was worse than what I went through. She would have traded places with me in prison in a second, but she couldn't. She had to leave me there every single time she went to visit me. And there was only so much that she could do. She was in so many ways, like the world was on her shoulders and she had to figure it out. But also there was only so much she could do and so she was helpless and juggling that feel and then also trying to be a mom to her other daughter who is like trying to navigate like this whole thing is like such a human story with so many different elements. And I'm so glad that like again my creative partners in this project really appreciated and valued and pushed to have that be a part of it.

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[Emily Simpson]

Ready.

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[Emily Simpson]

How did you and Monica get connected? So I did say that she called you. So did that come out of the blue? Had you never met her before?

[Amanda Knox]

And also yeah, okay, yeah, I've known her since 2017. Okay, so the documentary about my case on Netflix came out in 2016 and as a result of that it was actually that documentary was the sort of shifted the conversation or at least public perception around me a little bit so that people started to think oh maybe, just maybe this girl is innocent and has like a story to tell of her own. And so I was invited to give a public talk for the first time And I was. I accepted, but I was really, really scared.

[Emily Simpson]

Now, was this in Italy?

[Amanda Knox]

No, it was not in Italy. This was in Seattle. Okay. And it was funny. It was for this, like, conference where these. The theme of the conference was controversy.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Amanda Knox]

And so the person invited a lot of people who had controversies around them, and so he invited me. I was the local controversy kid in Seattle, but also Monica Lewinsky was invited among a number of other people. And when I heard that she was going to be there, I asked the organizer if they could put me in touch. Because, you know, after coming out of prison, it's not like I just got my life back. You know, I'm still. You know, to this day, I'm still the girl accused of murder. And I carry the stigma of that accusation everywhere I go because I did not exist in the public imagination until I was existing in the most horrible way possible.

[Emily Simpson]

That's all people know of you.

[Amanda Knox]

That's all people know me. And also, like, it's very likely going to only be the only thing anybody knows me for because, like, how could I possibly accomplish anything bigger than that in this world that could define me more than this thing that was global and for nearly a decade defined me and defined my life, and it was something I had nothing to do with. So I was just overwhelmed by this feeling. And especially because, you know, even after I got home, people were still calling me a psychopath who got away with murder. People were telling me to shut up and disappear. And, like, there was this constant sort of energy towards me of, like, well, you know, you're not the true victim because your roommate was the one who was murdered, so you should just shut up and be grateful that you're alive. And, like, just like, this really, like, cruel energy toward me that was certainly, like, wanting to just put me down. And, you know, my husband has been, you know, to this day, this is something I deal with. My husband really pushes back and goes, well, until we change every single person's mind in the entire world, until there's anyone on this planet who thinks you might have had something to do with your roommate's murder, you have every right to, like, tell your story again and again and again until it gets into everyone's thick skulls that you had nothing to do with it because you didn't ask for this. Right.

[Emily Simpson]

That's a really smart perspective.

[Jane (Co-host)]

You're always on the defense.

[Amanda Knox]

I'm always on the defense. And I am trying to tell a bigger story now because, like, coming out of this experience, I didn't know anything about the criminal justice system. I didn't go to law school. I was going to school for creative writing. Like, I was the opposite of a true crime nerd. And I came out and was became aware of a whole world of people who have this happen to them that I didn't know. I had no idea. And I didn't know that the things that happened to me in Italy are happening here in the US all the time. I was shocked to discover this. And so I was feeling like, this internal compulsion to, like, tell my story. Because one of the weird things about my story is that it's almost like a gateway drug for people to get into, like, criminal justice. Like, awareness and reform is people think, oh, you know, wrongful convictions happen to other people, but they don't happen to someone like me. And then I came along, the, you know, the college educated white girl from the suburbs of Seattle. Like, if it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone, and it's everyone's problem. So anyway, to get back to the story of how I met Monica, I was invited to come speak. I was finally sort of getting this feeling like I have a story to tell and it's very important. It's not even just about me, but I had spent my entire adult life with people not believing me and putting everything I say through the worst possible filter, always trying to strip me of context, always trying to derive the worst possible thing that anything I say. And so I'm terrified to speak to people. I feel like everyone's just telling me to shut up. And there's like, one person in the world who I can imagine knows what that's like and has started to push back. Like, this was when Monica was writing the Vanity Fair articles. This was when Monica was doing her TED Talk. She was talking about online bullying, a public shaming. So I looked to her as like, the one example of somebody who was finally, like, taking a step stand and like, demanding a space for her voice. And she was like a model to me. So I reached out to her. She invited me up to her hotel room. She was very nice. She, like, gave me all this, like, great advice and. And then we stayed in contact and we always check in with each other. And then she did Impeachment, where she executive produced Impeachment, the story of her experience. And she had learned a lot from doing that. And she was continuing to develop things in Hollywood and she wanted to basically, she wanted to, like, pave the path for another person to come behind her. And I was. That was me.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. So well, that's amazing. So you get a call from her, and she's like, let's produce a show.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah. Well, she said, would you be interested? Like, I've done this thing. And, you know, here's. Here was what my experience was like. Here was. Here's what I hope your experience would be like. And I was like, yeah. You know, people have been asking me for years to do that kind of thing, and I always resisted one because back when people were asking me, a lot of times they just wanted to tell the horrible story of what happened to me, and it was just limited to that. And I was like, you know what? I'm not interested in telling a story about the horrible thing that just happened to me. But by this point, I had already reached out to my prosecutor, and. And so I knew that my story wasn't just a bad thing that happened to me. It was what I was doing about it. And that I felt. Really felt like my story, it wasn't just someone else's story. There was something.

[Emily Simpson]

That's where you finally had control.

[Amanda Knox]

Well, yeah, and where I had taken control and where I recognized what I had control over. And, like, that journey of trying to figure out what it means to be free, like, you know, I had my freedom stolen from me, but even after I was, like, freed, I wasn't free. And I feel like there's this universal human experience of, like, feeling trapped in your own life and trying to make sense of it and trying to recognize how to be an effective agent in your own life and to accomplish what you want to accomplish and define yourself on your own terms. I feel like that is a very universal thing. But that has been, like, the story of my life. My entire adult life has been pushing back against false narratives and really trying to find myself on my own terms. And this is how I did it. And that felt like a story I was very proud to tell. And so when I explained that to Monica, she was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Yeah. And then. And then we told all of the, you know, producers, and they're like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Right? And everyone was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. And now here we are.

[Emily Simpson]

So can we. Can I ask you a question about your prosecutor?

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Now, the last episode before the finale, the way it ended to me was so, like, my heart. I had, like, heart palpitations. You're at home and you're finding out this is the Italian Supreme Court, whether they're going to kick it back to A lower court or whether they're going to definitively.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah. So just for those who don't know, in the Italian legal system, the way that it works is both prosecutors and defense attorneys can appeal verdicts because no verdict is definitive until the Supreme Court validates it. So what that meant for my case is that I went through. Let's see, how many trials did I do? I had had one trial where I was found guilty, then I had another trial where I was found innocent, and then I had another trial where I was found guilty, and then I had another trial where I was found innocent. So I had like all of these different trials because they just kept ping ponging through the courts. And so I was in prison for eight, for four years, on trial for eight. And it was in this. What we depict in this show is this, like, limbo space where, like, yeah, okay, I'm home, I'm free, but I'm facing extradition. Like, I, you know, I do. I'm not able to live my life because I'm still, like, with the legal axe hanging over my head. So we get the final verdict, I'm acquitted, you know, definitively. No one's ever gonna try to put me in prison for murder again. But the verdict left open the possibility that I might have been home when the crime occurred.

[Emily Simpson]

See, I never knew that. And I don't know, I feel like maybe in any documentary I'd ever watched about you or anything, I never learned that. I don't know if I just didn't say see it or.

[Amanda Knox]

I mean, it's. It's like a nuanced thing that's in the court document. Like, you have to read a hundred page court document to appreciate that. But, like, that was what my attorneys called a contentina, which means a little contentment. So it was like the courts were trying to say, okay, the prosecution is really, really wrong. Amanda's innocent. She didn't do this crime. But, you know, the police weren't crazy to think that she was there, because maybe she was. And it's like, what do you mean? Maybe I was there. I was just there and my friend was getting murdered and I was doing nothing about it. What are you talking about? And like, and it left open this possibility that, like, I'm in some way connected. Connected to this and I'm withholding the truth from the family of, you know, Meredith's family. Like, oh, if I was there, well, I know exactly what happened. Why aren't I revealing the truth? It brands me. If not legal, a liar implies it and so I'm left still with, like. And it's. And it leaves me also in this place of, like, well, you're not totally innocent. Right? So you're not. You didn't get harmed. Like, you. You were there.

[Emily Simpson]

You.

[Amanda Knox]

You know, and it's just. It's had this, like, really deep, difficult consequences for me in my life.

[Emily Simpson]

And I. I can see that on the screen. I mean, she does an incredible job.

[Amanda Knox]

Playing, oh, my God, Grace Van Patten.

[Emily Simpson]

I mean, first of all, gave her all the. I can't even when I watch it. It's never even in my mind do I think this is an actress playing Amanda Knox. Like, she's you.

[Amanda Knox]

Yes, she.

[Emily Simpson]

She looks like you, but she also has.

[Amanda Knox]

Is she.

[Emily Simpson]

Is you. Like, she does. It is so creepy. It really is. And I also didn't know this, but her sister plays your sister.

[Amanda Knox]

I know, and I didn't know that. And it's so great, too, because, like, the way that they're, like, f. Physically different is also the way my sister and I are physically different. Like, my sister is taller and blonder than me, and so her sister is taller and blonder than her. It's perfect.

[Jane (Co-host)]

That's some good casting.

[Amanda Knox]

Such great casting. My sister has been watching the show and, like, live texting me every time she's watching it, and she was just like, oh, my God, Anna Van Patten, like, how did she know? And, yeah, like, she's got my sister's snark. It's amazing.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. But I tell you, that moment when you're speaking to Carlo, your attorney, and he's like, amanda, this is great, you know, like, they can't ever come after you again. However, you know, there's just this little thing where they said, you know, you might have been in the room, but, like, don't worry about that. And then in your. Her face, your face, you're like, you're just. As someone watching, I can tell that, like, you're. You're not okay with that.

[Amanda Knox]

And then that's when everyone's, like, cheersing and having champagne, saying, it's over.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Amanda Knox]

And I'm like, it's not over.

[Emily Simpson]

Right?

[Amanda Knox]

It's not. This is not over for me. Right. That verdict means that it is not over for me.

[Emily Simpson]

Now, is that the moment when you decide that you're going to reach out to him, or do you have to mull it over? Think about it, and then you come up with that?

[Amanda Knox]

I mean, the way that the, like, there's certain things that the series doesn't show because, like, it's only eight episodes. Like, the actual first time that I went back to Italy was not to go see my prosecutor. I went one time before that.

[Emily Simpson]

That's when you gave a speech.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah, I gave a public talk for the Italy Innocence Project, which didn't exist at the time that I was on trial and everything, but it was around that time. And again, part of this was being within the innocence movement. Like, I was meeting other wrongly convicted people, and I was asking them questions about, like, how they were processing being wrongly convicted and what did they think about their prosecutors. And some, you know, I love exonerees. And freed people are some of the most, like, Zen people you will ever meet. They are, like, we've had to live with. It's not just ptsd. It's, like, prolonged trauma. That's like, trauma on top of trauma on top of trauma for years. And we've had to develop, like, this radical ability to either utterly disassociate or just, like, accept reality the way it is and just try to make your life worth living regardless. And what that means is we tend to have a more humanistic view of people, and I think we. We tend to be less focused on, like, bitterness and. And anger and more like. And we're just more haunted by, like, the why of it all. Like, why did this happen to me? Why? And that if you really, really, genuinely have that, like, deep curiosity in you, it leads you to wonder about the people who harmed you. And, like, for me, at the very least, like, I always assumed not that my prosecutor or the cops were, like, bad people, but they were convincing themselves that they were right. And if they, like, if they believe that they're good people and they're doing the right thing, how could they possibly go down this path? And how could they possibly do this harmful thing? And the one thing that I always heard from people in the innocence movement was that they never apologize. Like, they never, like, if you were confront a prosecutor or a cop with a wrongful conviction, they always deny it. They always dig in their heels. And so there was almost no point. Like, I was. I sort of. I started mentioning this to my friends in the innocence movement that I was curious, and I wanted to reach out to my prosecutor. Cause, you know, if I'm gonna be curious about this, why don't I just go to the source? Why don't I just ask him directly? Why did you look at me when there was clearly the evidence of who raped and murdered my roommate? Why did you look at me and think there's my rapist and murderer. Like, what is it about me? How is that possible? And so why don't I just go directly to the source and ask him? And everyone said. I think everyone was nervous for me. They were like, we just don't want you to go through yet another traumatic thing, which is putting yourself out there, really making yourself vulnerable and just having this guy, like, get defensive and mean to you again. Like, we don't want you to just have more harm on top of harm. But I just. I couldn't get it out of my head. Like, I felt like I had something to do, something. Not just something to get. Like, I. Originally, yes, of course I wanted him to, like, admit that he was wrong and do all those things. But eventually I figured out that it wasn't even so much what I needed to get from him. It was more like what I needed to give him. I had something to get off of my chest. And so I went to go do it. And you'll see in the final episode how that ultimately transpired. But, like, I corresponded with him for two years before I met him, before meeting him in person because of the pandemic. So I don't know when anyone else was doing the pandemic, but I was just writing letters to my prosecutor.

[Emily Simpson]

Now, it's interesting that he wrote back. Cause he could have just. He could have, to his credit, ripped it up and been like, Amanda Knox. And, you know, but he wrote back.

[Amanda Knox]

He did. And, you know, to his credit. And I. And I think that the show really, really attempts to give him credit where credit's due. Like, to really understand his context, who he is as a person, what his history is, but also to acknowledge, like, he didn't have to go on this journey with me. He didn't have to respond, but he did. And, you know, we are still in contact to this day.

[Emily Simpson]

Now, I read that. I read that you do exchange letters and do you exchange Christmas cards and things like that?

[Amanda Knox]

Text messages?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. Really? So I would assume that if you're at that point where you're exchanging text messages. And again, I haven't watched the finale, so I don't know exactly what happens, but I assume there's a level of understanding or something that happens during that time. Meeting.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah. Yes, there. There is. And it's. I mean, it's great for television because it's full of conflict in the sense that it's like, it's not just a Kumbaya fest. Right? Like, there is conflict and there's, to this day, like, Unresolved conflict. But there's also, again, like, there's this. There's something that happens outside of the courtroom which is this, like this universal human need for connection, for understanding. And the thing that, like, you'll see depicted so, which so well by Grace and Francesco Acuaroli is that desire to be understood, one person to another, not just me to him, but him to you, but him to me.

[Emily Simpson]

Did you see him differently after meeting in person? Were you able to maybe see his perspective? I will tell you, I knew he was wrong the entire time, but I had a hard time hating him. So I think you did a good job of depicting him in a way where, you know he's wrong and you know the path he's going down is wrong. And, you know, he keeps. It's like he keeps trying to make this fit even though it doesn't fit and he's hammering it. But for some reason I couldn't ever hate him. And I don't know if it's because you shared in the series a little bit of his backstory and where he came from so that the viewer does have some compassion towards him. And I think that was great that you did that because I felt like it wasn't just like, this is my perspective and I'm gonna go down this road of my perspective and make this series the way I want to make it from my perspective, which it is to a certain extent. But you're also open to allowing the person watching to have a different interpretation of each character as well and kind of form their own opinion. And I think that's what is so real about it.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah, that was very, very intentional. Because my perspective, my personal perspective is that every single person who played a part of this perfect storm of insanity is understandable, is ultimately relatable if we tap into those universal human drives. And like I do. And I think that this is a really, really important service for actually the innocence movement, because I do not think that painting people in black and white terms as heroes and victims and villains actually helps us understand how wrongful convictions happen and what to do about it. I think it really matters to understand that, like, harm can happen even when everyone thinks that they're doing the right thing.

[Public Investing Sponsor]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets, which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt from renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers, growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosure is available at public.com disclosures.

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[Jane (Co-host)]

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[Amanda Knox]

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[Amanda Knox]

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[Jane (Co-host)]

Do you feel the prosecutor is now a better prosecutor for having.

[Amanda Knox]

I think he's a better prosecutor because he's retired.

[Emily Simpson]

Because he's not prosecuting anymore.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Okay, well.

[Amanda Knox]

Well, I think he's a better person.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Okay.

[Amanda Knox]

Almost.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Almost the same thing. So he has a better understanding of what took place, mistakes that were made or things that could be different or that, you know, I don't know, but I don't want to put words in people's mouths or any experiences, but he basically has a different understanding of what took place now that you two have connected in a. In a more personal level.

[Amanda Knox]

Yes.

[Jane (Co-host)]

After it's all been pushed behind us.

[Amanda Knox]

Yes.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah. And I.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Had he not been retired, do you think it would help him in prosecuting more?

[Emily Simpson]

I guess, objectively.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah, carefully. I don't know for sure about that. What I can say is that I think the fact before me, and I guess since me also, but he never had been approached by someone that had he had prosecuted before. I am the only person that he's ever prosecuted who has reached out to him and wanted to talk to him on a human level and wanted to, like, understand who he is as an actual person. And that deeply impacted him. He talks about it as, like, one of the most important things that's ever happened to him. So how has it changed him? I don't. I couldn't tell you all the ways, but I know that it has.

[Emily Simpson]

You know, I want to ask you because the last couple episodes we've done, this wasn't even on purpose, but the last two cases we've done all revolve around false confessions. And when I watched, you know, your series and you're. You're being detained, and I assume because we talk about this all the time, when you're. When you're going to the police station, you. You assume you're there helping.

[Amanda Knox]

Yes. Well. And with good intentions.

[Emily Simpson]

Right?

[Amanda Knox]

Absolutely. So, yeah. So weird facts about wrongful convictions. So the majority time that people are getting wrongly convicted, first of all, they're men, and first of all, they're usually men of color, at least poor. These are sort of very common traits to it. But most of the time there's a. Something bad happens, there's a crime that occurs, and then an eyewitness sort of points them in the wrong direction, or the police get an idea, a description of somebody in their mind, and they go towards that person.

[Emily Simpson]

Tunnel vision.

[Amanda Knox]

And they get tunnel vision and they go after it. And then, you know, all these years later, the, you know, the DNA proves them innocent and, you know, they go through the process of like interrogating that person. And in one in four murder cases, like we're talking people who have everything at stake, they confess to, under, under the pressure of these interrogations, which involve lying, which involve, you know, sometimes third degree techniques, although those technically aren't legal. And so I think that just very fact suggests that there's something wrong with the way that we do interrogations. If in one in four murder cases where everyone, where someone, an innocent person has no motivation whatsoever and has everything to lose if they falsely confess, they start making false admissions and implicating themselves in a crime, there is something deeply, deeply wrong with the way that we interrogate people.

[Emily Simpson]

Absolutely.

[Amanda Knox]

But a lot of the time, like, what happens is like they just happen to get the wrong person and then, you know, 10, 20 years go by and they finally test the DNA and they prove that it was somebody else. Right. In my case, what's so fricking weird is that we knew from the DNA evidence who committed this crime within weeks. The problem was that I had already been arrested because I had already been interrogated and falsely confessed. Or, you know, something my prosecutor likes to point out is he says, you didn't falsely confess, you falsely accused someone. And it's like, regardless of what, how you describe it, I was put through an interrogation where the exact same techniques were implemented. And what they told me was that I had witnessed the crime and that I didn't remember it. So I was lied to. They told me they had, you know, undeniable proof that I was physically present when this crime occurred. They told me that I was a witness, that they weren't accusing me of doing the crime, but they were accusing me of covering it up. And they were telling me that I was clearly scared, I was clearly a good girl. I obviously wanted to help the police. But what happened is I had been so traumatized, but why by what I had witnessed, that my brain just blacked it out. However, if I was going to prove that I was on the side of the good people, I had to tell them what I couldn't remember. And so eventually, and this is happening in the middle of the night, like, I'm sleep deprived. I've already been questioned for days on end, like I'm Just like losing my fucking mind. It's in a foreign language. Eventually, I'm like. I start to question myself. They've painted this false reality around me, and my mind is trying to make sense of it, and so I finally cave, and I'm like, I guess you must be right. I guess I must have witnessed something.

[Jane (Co-host)]

So when you confessed inaccurately, but when you confessed at that moment, you truly thought possibly this is what happened? What they're telling me is what happened. It wasn't let me confess to try to get out of something or to lessen the charges.

[Amanda Knox]

I believed them. I started to think that I was crazy.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Now, if I can ask. I don't know what it's like in Italy and the way they interrogate and prosecute, but had you not said anything, going back in time, and you didn't say anything, you said, I want an attorney, blah, blah, blah, and you didn't say anything. And then they came across that DNA evidence. Do you think they would have then let you get away? Like, released you, I should say, as a suspect?

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah. I never would have been arrested.

[Jane (Co-host)]

They had the tunnel vision and they were stuck with you, and they had to make it work.

[Amanda Knox]

I don't think I ever would have been arrested had I not been coerced into.

[Jane (Co-host)]

So again, we're going back to the. When you're being pulled in for a crime that you had nothing to do with, this seems to be a trend is to keep your mouth shut.

[Amanda Knox]

Yes.

[Jane (Co-host)]

And request an attorney so you don't do anything incorrect.

[Amanda Knox]

Exactly. So they can't use anything you say against you.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Yeah. See, getting an attorney doesn't mean to get away with a crime. No, it also just means so I know what the hell is going on.

[Amanda Knox]

And protecting your own human rights, like you don't know.

[Jane (Co-host)]

And also then you're saying you have an attorney sitting there saying, no, these are your. Your rights, and we're gonna help you, and you're not alone. And.

[Amanda Knox]

And you don't have to sit here in the middle of an interrogation, in the middle of the night like, you don't know. Like, no one told me that I was even a suspect. I was. Again, they said they were interviewing me as a witness. And so, like, I had no idea. They told me, when they arrested me, they didn't tell me they were taking me to prison. They told me they were taking me to a holding place for my protection and that it would only be for a few days.

[Jane (Co-host)]

And you had every reason to think that that was correct because you're like, there's this been horrific murder that took place in my apartment. I don't know who's. If I'm next. So you probably had every reason to think, okay, I want to go, be safe.

[Amanda Knox]

Yep.

[Emily Simpson]

You know, it's a. It's a. It's such a common theme because we go through so many cases, the interrogations in the middle of the night. I mean, clearly.

[Jane (Co-host)]

And what cop is wanting to work in the middle of the night?

[Amanda Knox]

They want to crack you.

[Emily Simpson]

And I'm telling you, a lot of people say to me, when, you know, we talk about these cases and things, and a lot of people don't understand how someone could confess to something that they didn't do because they just see.

[Jane (Co-host)]

The news and they hear he confessed.

[Amanda Knox]

Right.

[Jane (Co-host)]

And that's all. That's all we think. We don't think. What time of day was it? How many hours were they there questioning? Did they. Did the interrogator say that we have DNA evidence and all this false stuff?

[Amanda Knox]

Did they lie to you?

[Jane (Co-host)]

Right, because they're allowed to lie to you. As crazy as that.

[Amanda Knox]

I was hit. You know, like, there are. And again, you don't even have to be hit because, like, these methods that are legal.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Legal, you're right. That's the part I disagree with. It is legal, and it shouldn't be.

[Amanda Knox]

Absolutely, incredibly effective at getting people to confess whether they're guilty or innocent.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Yeah. My thing is admit nothing, deny everything, and demand proof. So you never.

[Amanda Knox]

But try explaining that to someone whose friend's just been murdered. Like, I had every reason to want to cooperate with the police.

[Jane (Co-host)]

I mean, you were young. You were.

[Orangetheory Fitness Sponsor]

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[Jane (Co-host)]

You were a baby.

[Amanda Knox]

I was. In terms of world experience and obeyed police officers. I have military in my family. Like, you know, uniform means authority figure. It means someone that you can trust and that you have to obey. That's what that meant to me.

[IBM Sponsor]

Yeah.

[Amanda Knox]

Now, uniforms means they have authority make me scared.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Amanda Knox]

Like, to this day, like, I go through airports and, like, I see people in uniform and I just, like, cringe. Like, I. And I'm trying to get over that because I know that it's not everyone, but just the, like, knowledge of how much power that they have over you, like, that's scary to me. Now, I don't look at someone in uniform and go, that's someone who's there to protect me. I look at that as someone who.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Hurt me on a very much lighter level. My father always told me at this time that he was pulled over. Drugs were planted on him and he was arrested and he stayed the night in jail. And he had, if he did it, he would have told me, right? I mean my dad would have told me, oh yeah, I smoked pot or whatever. But he didn't. And they threw it in the, in the car, they arrested him, he spent the night in jail and to this. And then he, the next day he, he was released and whatever. But it, and he also has very little memory. When I asked him what happened, he said, I'm like, how would you not remember the one time you were in court being a defendant? Anyway, he tells, he still gets, he doesn't like police and specifically New York Police Department OR Excuse me, New York, the Newport Beach Police Department. He still 60, 70 years later has a beef with them. And that was a very small interaction compared to what, you know, some people go through.

[Amanda Knox]

Well, and I.

[Jane (Co-host)]

So it's understandable that you would be that way.

[Amanda Knox]

And it's hard because like holding people accountable for the harm that they cause, like the whole system is sort of against those of us who are a victim of the system. Like those of us who are victims of the criminal justice system don't have great recourse. Like it's, it's, it's, it seems like everything and everyone wants it to be our fault. Like we are victim blamed like crazy. Oh, it must be your fault that you were suspicious. It must be your fault that you got them to think that you had something to do with it. Like other people that think, well, it.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Doesn'T happen to me. Yes, my roommate doesn't get murdered. I don't get in these situations. I'm not guilty. I don't do these things. You must be guilty because you're involved in all this.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah.

[Public Investing Sponsor]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20, 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures Ready.

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[Emily Simpson]

Run a business and not thinking about radio. Think again cause more people are listening to the radio on iHeart today than they were 20 years ago. And only IHEART brought broadcast. Radio connects with more Americans than tv, digital, social, any other media, even twice as many teens than TikTok. And that reach means everything. Just think about the universal marketing formula. The number of consumers who hear your message times the response rate equals the results. Now let's get those results growing for your business. Radio's here now more than ever and iheart's leading the way. Think radio can help your business? Think iHeart streaming, podcasting and radio where the reach is real. Let us show [e-mail] that's iheartadvertising.com or call 844 844, iheart one more time. Just call 844-844, iheart and get radio working for you. You know what's interesting? And I'll tell you this because I have a pretty large platform on Instag posted that I was interviewing you and I asked people to ask questions that they would like to ask you.

[Amanda Knox]

Were they mean to you?

[Emily Simpson]

No, not at all.

[Amanda Knox]

Some people, I mean, they're mean to.

[Emily Simpson]

Me because of other reasons, because of Emily, because of me, not because of anything you've done. But it was so interesting to me that I will tell you that a reoccurring question that I get over and over and over and this is so telling as to your story is, do we finally know who did it? And it's. So this is when you talk about her case. This was interesting to me in your, in your series because you show Rudy Getty, who's the person who. His DNA is everywhere.

[Amanda Knox]

He's clearly, he has a history of breaking and entering. He has a.

[Emily Simpson]

He committed the crime. He, he admits it. He's on the phone and they record it. Right. And he even says that Amanda wasn't there.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah, he says, I was there. Amanda wasn't there.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, she had nothing to do with it. He goes to the fast track trial or whatever. And in the series, it's so interesting because I'm sure it's absolutely accurate, but there's no one there at his trial. He's. He goes on trial for this murder. That's huge.

[Amanda Knox]

Biggest murder, huge in Italy's history.

[Emily Simpson]

It's global. It's all over the media. The man who actually committed the crime is on trial. There's no one watching. There's hardly any media.

[Jane (Co-host)]

No press coverage is what I mean.

[Emily Simpson]

There's no press coverage. And to this day, people still say, did they find the person who actually did it? That just goes to show you that the media had no interest in people knowing.

[Jane (Co-host)]

That's not a, that's not a good story.

[Emily Simpson]

Who actually committed the crime.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah. That's where the media ethics, part of my. Right.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Journalism would follow through on that.

[Amanda Knox]

But they didn't.

[Emily Simpson]

They didn't.

[Jane (Co-host)]

You would think.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Correct.

[Emily Simpson]

And it is not. Not globally. No. She's globally known. You say Amanda Knox, and I would say nine out of 10 people probably have heard my name, heard your name, and, and can probably, once you start to talk about it can be like, oh, yeah, I remember that you say his name. Nobody knows. Nobody. I would say the general public doesn't even know it was ever solved. And that is such a testament to how much the media just latched onto you and how you were sensational. You were young, you were pretty, you were in Italy, you made out with your boyfriend. They thought that was weird, whatever, and they just went with that. And then all the crowds outside your trial that latched on to it without knowing anything about the case, about not really knowing any of the facts, not following anything, not understanding how the forensics and the DNA and everything was just botched. It was a terrible investigation. They just knew you.

[Amanda Knox]

Yep, Yep.

[Jane (Co-host)]

And the end result of Rudy's trial.

[Amanda Knox]

Yes.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, he.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah. So he. He elected for what they call a fast track trial in Italy.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Speedy trial.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah, speedy trial. So it wasn't a trial by jury. It was just with a judge, kind of like the. I guess we would call it our. Like, I don't know, there's not really an equivalent here in the U.S. but like, just a judge found him guilty and he was sentenced to 30 years, but they were reduced to 16 on appeal. And then he got out of prison after 13 years, and now he is on trial for sexually assaulting another young woman.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Since getting place after he was released.

[Amanda Knox]

Yes. Yeah.

[Jane (Co-host)]

So he's a career criminal.

[Amanda Knox]

I mean, he's clearly got issues with women. And it's so frustrating to me because the truth about what happened to my roommate matters. The truth matters. And the thing that, like all these institutions that we trust, like, they failed, the Italian justice system failed. I mean, yes, Rudy did go to prison for this crime, but he was not actually held fully accountable for the crime. Like, he was never even accused of breaking and entering into our house. He was never accused of stealing from Meredith, all of these things that he did. And so he was let off with a lighter sentence and clearly too early.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Because he just committed to him.

[Amanda Knox]

He got out too early and points the finger at me to this day. As soon as he was arrested, suddenly now I'm. He latched onto this. I mean, he got an attorney who convinced him to take the lesser guilt and say, oh, yeah, sure, Amanda was there. And you know, to this day does that. He takes advantage of the obsession people have with the idea of me being guilty and uses it to, like, slide underneath, you know, like to not take accountability for his crimes. Like, he is not the person who is known for Meredith's death.

[Emily Simpson]

No.

[Amanda Knox]

And that's obscene. And the fact that no one's even following up to know what else is going on with him. Very, very little media coverage of him whatsoever.

[Emily Simpson]

I know.

[Amanda Knox]

And yet people complain about Everything I do every day.

[Emily Simpson]

That's what is crazy, crazy to me now. When I watched the documentary on Netflix that you did a few years ago, they show an interview with you, but they also show. I would have to tell you, this guy drives me nuts. I just have to ask you. Nick Pisa.

[Amanda Knox]

Ah, yes. Or as my family likes to call him, Nick Pisa. Shit.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes. I like that. I like that. Okay. I've been on reality TV for a long time. I get a lot of crap. Not like. I would never compare. No comparison at all.

[Amanda Knox]

No.

[Emily Simpson]

We can.

[Amanda Knox]

We can bond.

[Emily Simpson]

We can bond. I understand it, but not to the extent that you have. But I have never. I always make fun. I always make fun of people that come onto my Instagram and call me horrible names and send me horrible DMs. And I think, what kind of people are these? That you watch a reality show and then you feel compelled to say something to me, like, can it not just be entertaining for you? But anyway, I will tell you, Nick Pisa is the only person I have ever felt compelled to find on Instagram. You did? I. I looked for him because.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Wait, what. What's his part in this?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, he wrote for the Daily Mail.

[Amanda Knox]

Yes, okay.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Oh, yes, I know who he is.

[Amanda Knox]

He. He was one of the journalists who really, like, staked his career.

[Jane (Co-host)]

He liked to be in the headlines.

[Amanda Knox]

He loved.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Yeah, he liked his name being in print. Yes, I remember him.

[Emily Simpson]

He said it was better than sex.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah, he said that. And. And you know what he's conveying, though, is, like, a true thing about the media, which is that they were rewarding him for that behavior. So just print anything. Doesn't matter how scandalous, doesn't matter what the source is, just print it. Because anything that has Foxy Knoxy in the headline is going to do well for us. And he did that. And he would. You know, he actually was one of the people who. And this is what journalism has descended to. But, like, in the lead up to my acquittal, nobody knew what the verdict was going to be, obviously, so he just wrote two completely separate articles ahead of time, like, describing our reactions. Just, you know, like, imagine.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Which is not journalism. Because he's fabricating.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah, he's fabricating. He is not doing journalism. He's just fabricating, like, oh, Amanda's crying, blah, blah, blah. And they accidentally. The only reason I know this is because they accidentally posted the wrong one.

[Emily Simpson]

Wow.

[Amanda Knox]

And then they took it off, like, within 24 hours. But, like, that shows you the level to which, like, journalism has descended because everyone's trying to be the first person to publish. And to be the first person to.

[Emily Simpson]

Publish, you have to have it ready.

[Amanda Knox]

To make shit up.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jane (Co-host)]

That's like. Was that President Nixon that had two different speeches for if the men actually survived landing on the moon versus if they didn't survive? Yeah, we'll save that for another day.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Yeah. So this. But this is someone's livelihood, someone's feelings, someone's.

[Amanda Knox]

You know, this is journalism, right?

[Jane (Co-host)]

Yeah, it's journalism. It's not just commending someone or not.

[Amanda Knox]

Like, I can understand how the President would anticipate, like, okay, the.

[Emily Simpson]

Either way.

[Jane (Co-host)]

But those are also his words. He wrote what he believed, should they have not survived what he felt. This is someone writing about you.

[Amanda Knox]

Exactly. Well, and. And doing it from a journalistic lens. Right. Like, I'm reporting the facts.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Yeah. Where's the integrity?

[Amanda Knox]

What are the. What are these facts you're reporting that you're just making up right now?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Amanda Knox]

Prior to this even.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Because his nickname that your family has, Nick.

[Emily Simpson]

I like that. Nick P's the shit. I feel like Nick owes you an apology. Have you ever. Have you ever had an interaction with him?

[Amanda Knox]

No, no. Lots of people owe me apologies.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Like the country of Italy, maybe. Yeah.

[Amanda Knox]

I mean, it's funny because, like, the people who have apologized to me are the ones who are, like, least involved, you know? Like, I. Here's an example of someone who apologized to me months, and it was just, like, so amazing. And I actually interviewed her on my podcast, but she was a model who was very young, very young model, when I was going through everything and she was hired to do a model, like, a photo shoot that she didn't even know what it was ahead of time, but it turned out that it was an Amanda Knox themed photo shoot. So they were like. They were showing off clothes, but, like, Amanda's in a prison cell doing yoga, or Amanda's holding up a knife and she's covered in blood. It was for Vice. They were thinking they were being clever, and she, like, did it because she was like, I'm, you know, an aspiring model. I just do any job that I can. But in the aftermath, she was just haunted by it for years. And she was like, oh, my God, what did I just do? And, like, what is a man? Like, she was thinking, Amanda might see these one day. And like, oh, my God. And so she was just. And in fact, I did, and I was like, oh, my God. And then years go by and she finds me on Instagram and DMs me just to say, hey, I don't know if you ever saw these, but I participated in this thing, and I feel. Feel awful about it. I feel so awful. And I just wanted to tell you, like, I'm so sorry for being part of the apparatus that was depicting you in this, like, completely dehumanized way. And so, you know, like, she could apologize. I. I think that other people are just so deeply in bed with what they did that it's really hard to, like, pull back.

[Emily Simpson]

If there's one person that you could get an apology from, who would it be?

[Amanda Knox]

My prosecutor.

[Emily Simpson]

So I'm gonna assume when you meet with him, there isn't an apology.

[Amanda Knox]

So what. You will. It's really interesting what happened. I don't want to give it away, but, like, I didn't walk away with nothing.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay.

[Amanda Knox]

You know, so stay tuned. Stay tuned, my friends.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay.

[Amanda Knox]

Stay tuned.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay.

[Amanda Knox]

Human. Humans are really interesting now.

[Emily Simpson]

Did he. Did he know you were making the series?

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Did he give input or anything? Or was it basically like, we're gonna hire an actor to be you? And.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah, I mean, like, I asked him who he thought should play him, and, yeah, it was really funny that. I'm not gonna say who. He says he's like, George Clooney. Yeah, I'm not gonna say. But, you know, I also feel completely within my rights to have boundaries, and this was one of them. I told him about it. Like, I kept him informed as it was going on, but I did not feel at all like I needed to involve him in the project.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Amanda Knox]

Because it is very much from my perspective. Like, it is my story of going back to confront him and everything that led up to that moment. So, like, I felt very strongly that, like, this is my time to tell it the way I would tell it.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Jane (Co-host)]

So we should watch this knowing exactly that. That this is not just someone who tried to search the Internet and pull it together and recreate it was very. As good as the source can be.

[Amanda Knox]

Exactly. And again, I have to give credit to the creator and showrunner, K.J. steinberg, because technically, she is the creator and showrunner of the show. It is her vision, but we deeply, deeply align to in so many, so many ways. And when she would come to me with, like, ideas, I would be like, yes. Oh, my God. Like, the Amelie sequences, like, inspired sequences. Those were her idea. She was trying to, like, figure out how to tap into, like, what's special about my perspective and the fact that I was one watching Ahmae Lee when this crime occurred. And two, it was actually compared to Ahmae Lee by other attorneys in the courtroom. She was like, well, clearly, like, we're doing an homage to Amelie. And I was like, yes, that's amazing. And I think it does. It accomplishes something that, again, you don't see in your typical true crime biopic. It's really attempting to be artistic and nuanced and creative and really exploring what it means to be me and how I perceive the world.

[Emily Simpson]

Where are you right now? I mean, I know you're married and you're happily married and you have children and you've moved on, but is it important for you to always still have a voice and to be out there and to be a part. I know you're a part of the innocence center, which I am too, which is amazing, because then we'll get to see each other a lot more going forward. But is that where you're at, or is it your voice? Is that where we're at with you?

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah. I mean, the way that I've been thinking about it is, like, I've spent all of these years really dealing with, like, dark stuff. Like, I've been processing all of this, like, really dark, dense reality that has. That my life has been entrenched in, and I finally sort of turned it into the fertilizer I need to, like, just blossom. And so I'm feeling all of these, like, all this creative energy and, like, and. And. And advocacy energy just, like, shooting out of me. And. And I'm. And I'm finally, like, finding partners who recognize my value in that and. And don't just try to, like, tell me to shut up and disappear. And so I've got a lot to say. I've learned a lot from this process. And as my husband says, until we convince every single person in the world that I didn't deserve to be accused of a crime, I will keep explaining it to people if they need correction.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Jane (Co-host)]

You got some work to do?

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah, I got some more.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, you know what?

[Amanda Knox]

That's never been really, like, my goal. That's just, like, my husband is just like.

[Jane (Co-host)]

So they put it in perspective to you, though, why you're doing what you're doing, and it's okay to do what you're doing and speak your.

[Amanda Knox]

Absolutely. And you know what? What happened to me is still able to happen to other people because there are still, like, again, the way that we interrogate people in this country, it follows the same playbook as what happened to me in Italy, and that is happening to people right Now. And so I have a very clear vision of how we can change the system for the better. And as long as, like my voice and my story can help do that, I will keep doing that.

[Jane (Co-host)]

And.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, well, that's so empowering. And I, and I love to hear you speak because you speak so well and you've gone through so much, but it's, it's from such a human perspective, which I think is, that's what people can take away from it. It's just what you went through and where you are now and how you've come out and how you're empowered now. You don't want to be the wilting flower in the background that's afraid to use your voice because you're afraid people are going to think that you had something to do with it. You've just, you've moved past that and you're like, I'm going to stand up here on this stage, I'm going to tell you exactly what happened and you're going to listen to me.

[Amanda Knox]

Well, I got some mom energy now too. Like, I'm a mom. I have two young kids and like I.

[Emily Simpson]

Mom energy. I tell you something happens when you have kids.

[Amanda Knox]

Yeah, no, it, like you have to make the world better for them.

[Emily Simpson]

Absolutely.

[Amanda Knox]

Like it's not just about you anymore. Like the world should be better to them than it was to me.

[Emily Simpson]

And things that you didn't think that you would ever be able to do before one. Now you have children and you're like, oh, you just. Yeah, absolutely. Do it. Well, thank you so much for joining us. This has been such an amazing conversation. We appreciate you so much. So make sure you watch it on Hulu. It's called the Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox. You will not be disappointed and I want to know all your thoughts on what you guys think about it. So please DM me and we'll continue this conversation again later.

[Amanda Knox]

Sounds great.

[Emily Simpson]

Thanks for being here.

[Jane (Co-host)]

Thank you.

[Public Investing Sponsor]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc, SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures this.

[Jane (Co-host)]

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[Emily Simpson]

So have you heard the story about the prescription plan? With savings automatically built in, it's where a family of any size can feel.

[Amanda Knox]

Confident the cost of their medication won't hold them back. Go to CMK Co Stories to learn.

[Emily Simpson]

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[Amanda Knox]

Just by being members.

[Emily Simpson]

That's CMK Co Stories. Janice Torres here and I'm Austin Hankwitz.

[Public Investing Sponsor]

We host the podcast Mind the Small Business Success Stories produced by Ruby Studio.

[Jane (Co-host)]

In partnership with Intuit QuickBooks.

[Emily Simpson]

We're back for season four to talk to some incredible small business owners.

[Jane (Co-host)]

The big thing about working at tech is that it's ever evolving, ever changing. Everyone's a rookie. That's how fast the industry is changing.

[Amanda Knox]

So what I'm really excited about is.

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[Amanda Knox]

How do I do it all during the holidays? 4 words shipt same day delivery.

[Emily Simpson]

With Shipt, I can order groceries from.

[Amanda Knox]

Albertsons, decor from Michaels, even gifts for my furry friend from petsmart.

[Emily Simpson]

Plus my personal shopper brings everything I.

[Amanda Knox]

Need need that same day.

[Emily Simpson]

That makes it a breeze to decorate.

[Amanda Knox]

Get my shopping done and make time for all the holiday parties. Do it all this holiday season with Shipt. Download the app or visit shipt.com that's S-H-I-P-T.com.