Legally Brunette: The Diddy Verdict

Summary

Podcast Summary: Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge

Episode: Legally Brunette: The Diddy Verdict
Release Date: July 3, 2025
Host: iHeartPodcasts
Guests: Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Two Ts In A Pod, hosts Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge delve deep into the high-profile case of Sean "Diddy" Combs, unpacking the recent verdict and its broader implications. The episode not only explores the intricacies of the legal proceedings but also touches upon another significant case—the Brian Coburger Idaho murders—highlighting patterns and discrepancies within the justice system.

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Background of the Diddy Case

Sean Combs, a renowned music mogul and entrepreneur, faced federal charges that included racketeering, sex trafficking, and transportation to engage in prostitution. The case garnered widespread media attention, sparking debates about celebrity influence, legal loopholes, and victim advocacy.

Key Charges:

1. Racketeering and Conspiracy (RICO): Alleged involvement in a criminal enterprise.
2. Sex Trafficking by Force, Fraud, or Coercion: Involvement with Cassie Ventura (Victim 1).
3. Transportation to Engage in Prostitution: Related to commercial sex workers.
4. Sex Trafficking by Force, Fraud, or Coercion: Involvement with a second victim, referred to as Jane.
5. Transportation to Engage in Prostitution: Pertaining to Jane and other sex workers.

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Trial Proceedings and Evidence

The prosecution presented a robust case, including testimonies from 34 witnesses, flight records, hotel invoices, credit card charges, and video evidence documenting Combs' involvement in transporting individuals for sexual activities. Notably, Assistant U.S. Attorney Christy Slavic emphasized Combs' leadership role in a criminal enterprise, correlating his actions with criminal activities involving force and coercion.

Notable Quote:

"Over the last several weeks, you've learned a lot about Sean Combs. He's the leader of a criminal enterprise. He doesn't take no for an answer."
— Christy Slavic, Assistant U.S. Attorney [06:14]

However, the defense, led by Mark Agnifolo, contested these charges by presenting evidence of consent and voluntary participation, including text messages where victims expressed willingness and gratitude towards Combs. This juxtaposition created a complex narrative for the jury, oscillating between coercion and consensual activities.

Notable Quote:

"They set it up themselves, picking out male sex workers, paying the bills, getting the hotel to help set things up."
— Teddi Mellencamp [09:37]

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Verdict and Immediate Reactions

After 13 hours of deliberation, the jury delivered a split verdict:

• Not Guilty on Racketeering (RICO) and the two sex trafficking charges.
• Guilty on two counts of Transportation to Engage in Prostitution related to Cassie Ventura and Jane.

This outcome sparked significant backlash from the public and the victims' families, who expressed feelings of injustice and frustration over the limitations of existing legal frameworks in addressing such complex cases.

Notable Quote:

"It's not morally acceptable, and legally it's just confusing."
— Tamra Judge [06:03]

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Analysis of the Verdict

Teddi and Tamra dissect the implications of the verdict, emphasizing the legal distinctions between the charges. The refusal to convict on RICO and sex trafficking highlights gaps in the law, particularly in handling cases involving wealthy and influential individuals.

Key Points:

• RICO Requirements: Proving a criminal enterprise with at least two predicate acts within a ten-year period.
• Sex Trafficking vs. Transportation to Engage in Prostitution: The former requires evidence of coercion, fraud, or force, which was challenging to establish fully in this case.

The hosts argue that the legal system struggles to categorize and prosecute intimate partner violence and abuse within the existing frameworks, necessitating stronger and more nuanced laws.

Notable Quote:

"When time runs out on prosecuting real crimes, prosecutors sometimes look for workarounds, and the trafficking statute offers one."
— Teddi Mellencamp [61:07]

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Consequences and Future Implications

Despite the guilty verdict on the lesser charges, the acquittals on more severe allegations leave many questioning the efficacy of the legal system in delivering justice for victims of abuse and trafficking. The episode underscores the need for legislative reforms to better address and prosecute such complex cases.

Notable Quote:

"He's gotten away with it now, and he can keep doing what he wants to do because he can get away with it."
— Shane [44:35]

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Brian Coburger Case Overview

Transitioning from the Diddy verdict, the podcast also covers the swift guilty plea of Brian Coburger, a criminal justice PhD student charged with the murders of four University of Idaho students. Unlike the Diddy case, Coburger's plea deal provides closure for the victims' families but raises questions about justice and procedural fairness.

Key Details:

• Charges: Four counts of first-degree murder and one count of burglary.
• Verdict: Pleaded guilty to avoid the death penalty, receiving up to four consecutive life sentences without parole.
• Evidence: DNA on a knife sheath, cell phone data placing him near the crime scenes, video footage, and video evidence.

Notable Quote:

"These families don't have to sit there and listen and relive what happened that night."
— Gretchen Engel, Center for Death Penalty Litigation [72:04]

The hosts debate the merits of plea deals in high-stakes cases, weighing the benefits of expedited justice against the potential loss of comprehensive truth and accountability.

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Conclusion

Two Ts In A Pod provides a thought-provoking analysis of complex legal cases, highlighting the intersection of law, morality, and societal expectations. Through in-depth discussions and critical evaluations, Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge shed light on the challenges within the justice system, advocating for reforms to better protect and serve victims of abuse and trafficking.

Final Thoughts:

"It's not morally acceptable, and legally it's just confusing."
— Tamra Judge [06:03]

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Christy Slavic, Assistant U.S. Attorney [06:14]:
  "Over the last several weeks, you've learned a lot about Sean Combs. He's the leader of a criminal enterprise. He doesn't take no for an answer."

• Teddi Mellencamp [09:37]:
  "They set it up themselves, picking out male sex workers, paying the bills, getting the hotel to help set things up."

• Tamra Judge [06:03]:
  "It's not morally acceptable, and legally it's just confusing."

• Shane [44:35]:
  "He's gotten away with it now, and he can keep doing what he wants to do because he can get away with it."

• Gretchen Engel [72:04]:
  "These families don't have to sit there and listen and relive what happened that night."

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Note: This summary focuses solely on the content discussed by Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge. Advertisements, sponsor messages, and non-content segments from the transcript have been excluded to maintain a clear and concise overview of the episode's primary discussions.

Transcript

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[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Hi, guys. Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunette. I'll be your host today, Emily Simpson, with my co host, Shane. It's just Shane. You know, people DM me now and they ask how just Shane is doing.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yes. They refer to you as just Shane actually today. First of all, let me do a little disclaimer because we are going to talk about Diddy and the Diddy verdict. So story contains discussions of rape and sexual assault. If you or someone you know has been sexually assaulted, you can find help and discreet resources on the national sexual assault hotline website or by calling 1-800-656-4673. So the verdict and the Diddy trial actually came out today. I read it this morning. So we're going to discuss that. I know a lot of you are mad, upset, disgusted. I have a whole treasure trove of DMS of women saying, how did this happen? He paid people off. He's a celebrity, so he got off. You know, this is disgusting. Why is he not convicted on the higher charges? So we're going to go through that. First of all, let's just go back and refresh our memories just so we can talk about what he was originally charged with. He. There were five counts against him. These are federal charges. One was the racketeering and conspiracy charge, which was rico. The second was sex trafficking by force, fraud, or coercion. That had to do with Cassie Ventura. That was victim number one. Count three was transportation to engage in prostitution. Regarding victim one and commercial sex workers. Count four was sex trafficking by force, fraud, or coercion. And that had to do with victim two, who was known as Jane. And Jane testified. Count five was transportation to engage in prostitution regarding Jane and commercial sex workers.

[Shane]

Okay, well, let's sum it up. First one's rico. So basically the second one's traffic. Sex trafficking.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yeah.

[Shane]

The third one is what do you have here?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Transportation to engage in prostitution.

[Shane]

Okay. And then the fourth one is sex trafficking by force. It's awesome. Oh, well, for Jane. Right. So it's two sex trafficking charges, one against Cassie and another one against Jane.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Well, not against, but well, involving.

[Shane]

Yeah. Thank you. And then the. And then the fifth one is transportation to engage in prostitution.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Okay. So we all know that the verdict came out and that he was found not guilty on the higher charges of racketeering and sex trafficking. He was found guilty only on the counts of transportation to engage in prostitution.

[Shane]

Which includes prostitution as well. Right.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yeah, It's. It's transportation across, I believe, across state lines to engage in prostitution. All right, before we go into the verdict and our thoughts on the verdict, let's go through. We did do some episodes on the. The Diddy case, or Shane renamed him Pity.

[Shane]

Well, that was. That was by mistake.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yeah. But I'm confused.

[Shane]

Yeah. I pity the fool.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yeah.

[Shane]

That has Free Cops without me.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yes. Instead of P. Diddy, he just changed it to Pity.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

I feel like that works for him.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Let's go back. We did do some earlier episodes on Pity, if you would like to go back and listen to them. But I think it's important. Let's start at the closing arguments, because I feel the prosecution did a good job of wrapping everything up and laying out, like, a really precise, concise closing argument. So the prosecutors triggered headlines last week when they had backed off of or eliminated claims of arson and kidnapping against Combs. However, when Assistant U.S. attorney Christy Slavic launched closings last Thursday, she gave the allegations of arson and kidnapping a starring role in her first sentences, naming them before any others, she said, quote, over the last several weeks, you've learned a lot about Sean Combs. He's the leader of a criminal enterprise. He doesn't take no for an answer. And now you know about many crimes the defendant committed with members of his enterprise. Kidnapping of one of the defendant's employees. Arson by trying to blow up a car. Forced labor, including an employee the defendant repeatedly sexually assaulted. Bribery of a security officer to keep damning evidence against the defendant buried. And, of course, the brutal crimes in the heat of the case. Sex trafficking. The enterprise is Combs and his trusted inner circle, she said, and it existed to serve his needs and what he said. Slavic referred to Combs, former chief of staff Christina Quorum, his security team, and his assistants multiple times during her closing arguments, describing how they aided Combs in buying drugs, facilitated bribes, and covered up his violence. Slavic showed the jury images of 27 men that combs hired to have sex with Ventura Jane or with both women. This slide shows you just a subset of the strangers who had sex with Jane and Cassie. The Slavic said that sex trafficking charge regarding Jane is based on Combs years long pattern of fraud, coercion and ultimately force to get her to do quote hotel nights. She recalled three hotel nights in particular that Jane testified about as the most clear cut examples of sex trafficking with Jane adding that there are many other hotel nights that Jane agreed to because of the defendants pattern of coercion. All right, here's the problem with the sex trafficking charges. At least according to what I've read, what I've studied, what I've listen to testimony, I've watched videos on it. When it comes to the sex trafficking charges, which are higher charges than the prostitution charges, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt and the burden of proof is on the prosecution. The prosecution has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that Cassie and Jane were forced of course into these sexual acts.

[Shane]

Right.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

And they do a good job of, of painting a picture of women that are coerced by talking about how he pays their rent, that he's violent, that.

[Shane]

They'Re scared of him or, or even coerced into traveling.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Right.

[Shane]

Which you know, I, I don't know the details like you might, but which could, you know, I wasn't there text messages like I'm always ready or yes, baby, let's, you know, let's have a freak off or whatever. They would say something that implied consent. Even if you and I know that there was probably some pressure. But if she implied consent then there's no forcing of traveling or participating and.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Right. And that's where the defense comes in and where the defense did a good job was finding text messages, finding Instagram things, finding things out there where these women were, were exhibiting behavior of going along with it, of talking about how they like the hotel nights, of setting, of proving that they were setting it up themselves, that they were going through the motions, that they were picking out the male sex workers, that they were involved in the process. So you can't have it both ways. You can't have coercion, force and also involved in the process, picking out the male prostitutes, paying the bills, getting the hotel helping set things up. But the problem is when you have both of these women, I'm sure there were concrete examples and instances where they didn't want to do it and they probably did feel.

[Shane]

And all you needed was one of those instances to be proven right. One time or they were coerced. It didn't have to be every single freak off, every single transaction. It just had to be one.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

But the problem is, is that I think when the jury hears the prosecutors and they hear them testify, but then the defense comes in and shows text messages where they're saying things like, they set it up. They picked out this male worker. They enjoyed it. Thank you for setting that up. Thank you for, you know, hosting this. It takes away from the credibility that they were coerced or that they were forced into this. It looks more like they're going along with a lifestyle. All right, then the defense says they're closing argument there. The defense's main attorney is Mark Agnafilo. Agnifolo. I always say his name wrong. Agnifolo. His wife represents Luigi, and he mocked the government's case against Combs as an overreach, saying hundreds of agents poured into Combs residences in Miami and Los Angeles to seize hundreds of bottles of baby oil and Astro Glide. I guess it's all worth it because they found the Astro Glide. They found it in boxes. Boxes of Astro Glide taken off the streets. Phew. I feel better already. He said, the streets of America are safe from the Astro Glide. So that was.

[Shane]

That sounds stupid.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Well, you know what? You know why it sounds stupid. 1. I understand the point he's trying to make.

[Shane]

He tried downplay.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

He's trying to downplay it. Like, okay, so the guy.

[Shane]

Like, it's a. It's a sex lube. Like, lots of people use it. Oh, no, it's. He's trying to make it, like, mocking it. Like, we're taking guns off the street. We're taking Astrograd off the seat. Like, is it really making a difference?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

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[Jenna Ushkowitz]

All right, from the start Agnifil I cannot say his name. I can never get the syllable on the accent on the right syllable. Agnifillo Agniphilo Agnipalo Agnifolo. Gosh. From the start, Agnifolo portrayed prosecutors as unjustly targeting combs after a former girlfriend of nearly 11 years, Cassie Ventura, sued him in November of 2023. That was a civil suit that also, remember we talked about, was settled within one day for $20 million. Agnifolo maintained the prosecution was an unjust attack on a prominent and widely successful Black entrepreneur. Quote, they took Astro Glide and they took baby oil, and that ends up being the evidence in this case because his businesses are outstanding. There's nothing about the businesses to find. There's nothing about the businesses to make it into a criminal case. Agnifolo tried to cast the case for the jury as an attack on everyone's bedroom and the secrets of one's sex life Quote, they go into the man's bedroom. They go into the man's most private life. Where is the crime scene? The crime scene is your private sex life. That's the crime scene. He said.

[Shane]

Yeah, but that argument's dumb because that argument can be made with anyone that's being charged with a sex crime. I mean, that alone is stupid. Oh, he went into his bedroom and. Oh, oh, no. Sex. Well, no, it's. It's what's taking place.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Exactly.

[Shane]

It's like going, oh, no, we went to his room and there's this bunch of kids. Oh, no, there's kids. It's like, well, it's kidnapping or pedophilia or something else.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Right, right. Well, he's trying to downplay it and making it not like it's a criminal enterprise and not like there's a crime going other. This man is just has freaky preferences, and that's not a crime. Having astroglide and baby oil isn't a crime. And having sex in hotels and all the lights and the red lights and the candles.

[Shane]

I know, I know, and I'm making fun of it, but apparently it works.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

The defense attorney goes on to say it was not uncommon, that Combs like to film sexual events with his girlfriends, calling it sort of typical, you know, homemade porn, and adding that I don't think by any stretch of the imagination, this is the only man in America making homemade porn. I don't know. What do you think?

[Shane]

Yeah, I bet there was a lot of people at those free cosmetics. Homemade porn. So. But that. But he's not being charged with homemade porn.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

He's being charged with sex trafficking, sex crimes, and rico. Right, right. Still, he said investigators take yellow crime scene tape figuratively, and they wrap it around the bedroom crime scene. Your bedroom, your hotel rooms, where you go with your girlfriends. Then he gave a Nod to the 50th anniversary of the movie Jaws, resurrecting a classic line when he said, we need a bigger roll of crime scene tape because that's just not going to be enough. Agnifolo told jurors that it takes a lot of courage to acquit. He ripped the government's case a final time, saying the trial was very different from any other trial. Quote, I think that the evidence shows that you can conclude that the government targeted Sean Combs, noting that nobody complained to the government to instigate a probe. But investigators instead began their work a day after Cassie filed her lawsuit. All right, then, you know, in closing arguments, the prosecution goes first, then the defense gets their time. And then the prosecution can go again and they can rebut what, you know.

[Shane]

It sounds effective, though, the way he's downplaying. I can see, I can see it causing people to think, yeah, I know, what's the big deal? Especially there's eight men on the jury. They probably all have astroglides.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

I believe, I believe it was eight men and four women were on the jury. First of all, here's the prosecution's job, because we talked about how the prosecution has the burden to prove the RICO elements, the sex trafficking elements. Those are the biggest charges.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Beyond a reasonable doubt. And in order to, to prove the RICO charges, you have to prove that there was a criminal enterprise and that all these people in this criminal enterprise were working towards the common goal, which they weren't.

[Shane]

Right.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Criminal activity.

[Shane]

Is this, is this, is this enterprise his record company?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Well, that's what they're trying. It's called Sean Combs Enterprises or something.

[Shane]

Like, oh, it's even bigger than that. And then he has.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

And then I think there's like bad boy records and things under that. And he has other businesses under that.

[Shane]

But see, so let me interrupt you. So he has valid businesses that are. Business that's being conducted.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yes.

[Shane]

And probably for many years prior to these charges.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yes. And the prosecution spent a lot of time showing receipts that showed hotel bills being paid, transportation being paid for these prostitutes and the women, you know, baby oil and lighting and all the necessities. And then they would show a lot of times that it came out of his, his business enterprises, but then it would be paid back with his personal money. So that was. That's where it gets muddy. It's like on one hand, the prosecution is showing, okay, it's a criminal enterprise because he's paying for, out of these businesses to pay for these freak offs and to bring these male prostitutes in. And then the defense would go and say, yeah, but then he was, he paid it back with his personal.

[Shane]

They're kind of like, it's not the criminal, it's not the enterprise that's conducting all this criminal activity. He just used some of the money and then he paid it back.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Right. So it's not a criminal enterprise.

[Shane]

Right.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Also, you know, the prosecution put on 34 witnesses. 34. And it was all to establish a network of a criminal enterprise to establish rico.

[Shane]

The, the issue still couldn't get the charge.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

The issue is, is that the defense would then come in and do what the defense does, because I don't know if you know, but the defense Called zero witnesses. Zero. They, they only read some text messages. I think like five hours.

[Shane]

I mean, there was messages. Well, there's probably, there's probably no witnesses that are gonna come forth back. Yeah, I'll testify that I love the freak offs, that I was willing to do it and I participated.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

And well, the defense, I mean, the.

[Shane]

Defenses, that's what they could have done, right?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Well, I thought maybe I put on like a character witness or something to like maybe pull at the jury's heartstrings that like he's a good guy or something, I don't know. But they put on zero witnesses. Their case was basically just rebutting the prosecution's case and taking each witness, like for exact example, Capricorn Corn Clark, who talked about how she was kidnapped by Diddy. Well, then there you go. You're establishing one of your elements that you need for RICO, right. You're establishing you have to do two predicate crimes within a 10 year period. So you have to establish there was bribery, there was, you know, arson, there's burglary. You have to have two of these crimes. So Capricorn Clark testifies, there's your kidnappings. That would be one predicate act. Right. But the problem is then the defense comes on and then she admits that in 2024 she tried to work for him again. So it's like you're saying I was kidnapped at gunpoint and I don't know what year it was in some earlier year, but then in 2024, she reached out to Sean Combs and want to work for him again.

[Shane]

Yeah, it, it. Even if there were acts that were conducted that can be viewed as criminal, clearly the jury didn't see it as the enterprise being established or used to facilitate crime.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Right. And the defense did a good job of every time someone testified that there was always some evidence that could take away their credibility.

[Shane]

Like here's a text where she was consenting adults.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Right. Or she was setting it up or she enjoyed it, or she said thank you. So it was.

[Shane]

She liked being beaten up and pulled down the hallway back into the hotel room. She didn't want to go down the elevator.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Nobody likes that about the freak offs.

[Shane]

I know, but how? I have questions about the elevator incident.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

You do? What is your question about the elevator incident?

[Shane]

Why was.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

It wasn't in the elevator. It was in the hallway. She was trying to get into the elevator.

[Shane]

Yeah. Do you want me to call it the hallway incident?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yes, the hallway incident.

[Shane]

What is your question about what is it? Why was he. Why Was that not why was there no criminal charges for that? Is that because a statute of limitations? Is that because they settle it out of court?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Well, I think it was because she settled it out of court. And then I believe when prosecutors or the government or whatever read her civil case against him, that's when they were like, oh, he's involved in all of these things. And then all these other people are coming forward with all these. He's got. He's has so many civil suits against him right now. Then I think the government's like, wait a minute, what is this guy involved in and what is he doing? This looks like rico because there's. He has all these assistants and people working for him that are, you know, helping him facilitate these freak offs. It looks like this could be a possible rico charge, huh? Finally, a rebuttal from the prosecution. The assistant u. S. Attorney, Maureen comey got the final word with a rebuttal presentation to jurors. Comey began by saying the defense just spent a whole lot of energy trying to blame combs victims and the u. S. Government for his lies, his threats, and for his inexcusable behavior. She added that this trial was about how in Sean combs world, no was never an option. Comey said that the defense team has tried to separate violence from sex regarding both ventura and jane. But quote, if part of the abuse is making your partner participate in a commercial sex act, you're guilty of sex trafficking. She added that the jury only has to find that one freak off or hotel night was sex trafficked to find combs guilty of the charge. There's your answer. Sex trafficking does not legally require the perpetrator to overcome a no from the victim. It can also involve getting someone to say yes through illegal means like force, fraud and coercion. She said that combs in his mind, was untouchable. She noted that one former personal assistant even described him as a God among men. For 20 years, the defendant has gotten away with his crimes. That ends in this courtroom, she said. He is a person, and in this courtroom, he stands equal before the law. Overwhelming evidence proves his guilt. It is time to hold him accountable, find him guilty. Now, here's the thing with the rico charges. In order for a rico charge to stick, you have to prove two. Two criminal acts within a 10 year period that were part of this enterprise.

[Shane]

Well, I imagine among other things, like the. The enterprise was facilitating it.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Right. And also the element of like a.

[Shane]

Common goal and you have to prove that. That it was a crime.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Right. But I'm Saying I think that it was established by the prosecution that he did commit these crimes. As far as arson, I, and I don't know, with Kid Cudi testifying and then Cassie Ventura corroborating the arson and then I believe there was someone else that testified to it. So there's your arson right there. There's one crime also, the bribery. I mean, the security card talked about how he gave him a hundred thousand dollars and you know, brought the cash machine and counted it out.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

You know, so there's two. The problem is, is I think the other elements, as far as it being you have the two underlying criminal acts within a ten year period, but then.

[Shane]

Trying to make it racketeering is trying to make it racketeering and conspiracy not to downplay anything that he did. So people don't get after me because I'm not supporting him.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

They're going to DM me to get.

[Shane]

I'm not supporting him one bit. But it's, it's, it's sort of like if I had a retail store and I was just selling, I had like a mini Martin and I was selling stuff and then I committed two acts of crime and I used like the store. Like someone came in and I bought drugs. Right. Or I sold one, one item that was illegal. Well, I just happen to have a store and I did these two crimes. Like it wasn't because of the store. I was able to commit the crimes or I created the store in order to facilitate these crimes. So it sounds like that's what it was like. Yeah. Okay. He's a business guy. He's got all kinds of businesses, all kinds of entities. Yeah. All kinds of stuff. Payroll, this, that, blah, blah, blah. And he commits crimes. So it was probably very difficult to tie those two together.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Well, I think it was difficult to tie in the conspiracy part where you're talking about all these people that work for him. His employees, assistants, bodyguards, etc are all part of this criminal enterprise. And they're all working as a common goal to crook, to commit crimes.

[Shane]

It's not, it's not like he hired someone and gave them the title of like freak off calendar coordinator.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Right, Right. So freak off facilitator.

[Shane]

Yes. Yes.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

All right, so after 13 hours of deliberation, what did the jury find? So the verdict comes in. It was in this morning. Count one, rico, not guilty. Count two, sex trafficking. Cassie Ventura, not guilty. Count three, the man act transportation. Cassie Ventura, Guilty. Sex trafficking, Jane, not guilty. Man act transportation of Jane, guilty. The man act of 1910 is a federal law that criminalizes the transportation of individuals across state lines or international boundaries for illegal sexual activity, regardless of consent or not. In Combs case, the prosecution presented flight records, hotel invoices, credit card charges, and video evidence documenting the singer transporting two ex girlfriends, Cassie Ventura and a woman referred to by the pseudonym Jane, along with paid escorts across state lines for so called freak off parties. How does the man act differ from sex trafficking? Well, the Trafficking Victims Protection act of 2000 was designed to combat what Congress called modern day slavery. It targets organized systems of commercial exploitation through force, fraud, coercion, and it typically involves traffickers who control nearly every aspect of the victim's life, like housing, transportation, identification, finances, and the ability to leave. Both Cassie Ventura and Jane reported trauma and coercion, but they retained housing, communication, financial resources and career opportunities. They were not legally or physically confined. There was no evidence of document confiscation. There was no restriction of movement of the kind of isolation commonly seen in trafficking cases.

[Shane]

So the difference between the man act and the general term of sex trafficking is. Sex trafficking is forced or cursed or some type of fraud.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Some type of fraud.

[Shane]

And man act is it's two consenting.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Adults that go across state lines to.

[Shane]

Commit a sex crime.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Right.

[Shane]

Okay. And I think sex trafficking, I know I've read this before, is involves underage. So it need not be coerced and fraud and, and all that. It could just be underage.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Underage would be sex trafficking as well.

[Shane]

Which obviously didn't apply here. But I just wanted to make that clear. Right.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Are the not guilty verdicts.

[Shane]

It's kind of funny. That's called the man act. Yeah, that's pretty ironic.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

It's M A N N. Because I.

[Shane]

Bet no female's been convicted of the.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Man act of the man.

[Shane]

It's probably just the dirt bag men.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

That do it, that are transporting women.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Well, now I don't know though, because this weekend in Vegas I almost got sex trafficked. And yeah, it was a man working with a woman.

[Shane]

Well, she might have been coerced. She might have been forced. Well, okay, what are you gonna do? He's gonna throw that out there that you almost got sex traffic. You're not gonna tell the story. You gotta tell a story now.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Okay, so we went to Vegas this weekend and I was at Caesars with Shane and all the kids were there. And then I left earlier than Shane. I left Caesar's first mistake. Yeah, I shouldn't. I should never leave.

[Shane]

Stayed by my side anywhere alone.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

But anyway, I left Caesar's palace with the two boys. It was the three of us.

[Shane]

And I was with some girls.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Not some. His girls. His daughters.

[Shane]

Biological daughters.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yes. So I'm leaving Caesar's palace, and I'm walking out where the valet is, and there's a taxi there with the light on, which means it's available. And I go to open the door of the back seat of the taxi to get in it and take it back to Mandalay Bay where we're staying. And all of a sudden, this very tall, large man jumps in front of me and blocks me from getting into the tax.

[Shane]

Were the boys in the car? I think you told me this, but I want to make it clear for the viewers. You boys were in the car at this time or behind you?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

They were behind me. They were next to me.

[Shane]

All right.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

And then I'm like, what is this guy doing? And at first I got irritated, and then. So I reach for the door.

[Shane]

How was he dressed?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Like plain clothes.

[Shane]

Okay. Just regular. Not like a suit.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

No.

[Shane]

Just kind of looks like a shirt.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

No, he was tall. He was big. He had a T shirt, pants on.

[Shane]

All right?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Then I go and reach for the door again, and he gets in front of me and blocks me from getting into the car. And I'm like, what are you doing? I'm trying to get in this cab. And he goes, no, go in this other car. And he points to another car. By the way, the other car is an unmarked car. It's just a black car. It's not a taxi. It doesn't say Uber or anything on it.

[Shane]

It was a panel van.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

It's just. Yeah, it's just a black car. And he points to a woman that's standing about 10ft behind me, and she goes, oh, come on, sweetheart. Just get in this car.

[Shane]

And I was like, don't look at my bruises.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

I was like, no, I'm not getting in that car. So I try a third time to go for the door handle, and he grabs the door and he slams it shut. And he gets in front of me, and he won't let me get in the car.

[Shane]

How far away was she or the car? She was about, like, a car length away.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

A car length away.

[Shane]

Okay.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Over. Back behind the taxi cabin. She keeps going, like, motioning for me to get in this other car.

[Shane]

She's trying to vouch for him. Like, yeah, I'm a female. See? It's okay.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

She's like, it's okay, honey. Come get in this car. And then the. Then the taxi driver, who I'm trying to get into his car starts fighting with the man that won't let me in the car, and they're screaming at each other. So then I'm just like, this is insanity. I don't know what's going on. This woman's trying to get me to get in another car. These guys are screaming at each other. I thought they were going to get in a physical altercation. So I go back into Caesars and take the boys with me. The boys are scared. I go to the valet. I'm like, I need security. I'm trying to get in a taxi cab, and this guy won't let me get in the taxi. So then security goes out there, and it was. I don't know, it was a woman with a walkie talkie. She goes out and she talks to the guy, and I can see him talking. He's talking to her, and he's got his hands.

[Shane]

All she had was what he said.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Right, right. So I don't know what he said to her, but she comes back in and she says to me. And she goes, ma', am, he was just trying to get you in the other taxi cab. And I was like, well, ma', am, let me tell you, the other taxi cab is a black car with no markings on it. I'm not getting in that car. So then I stood there, and I had to wait until that guy finally left. And he eventually left, and then the boys and I had to have an escort take us out and find a new cab for us.

[Shane]

Anyway, in Vegas.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

What?

[Shane]

You got an escort in Vegas?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

I got an escort. I got a male escort in Vegas that escorted me to a taxi cab to make sure I got into an actual taxi and I got the Mandalay. But let me just tell you what my husband said when I called him to tell him that I almost got.

[Shane]

What did I say? I don't even remember.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

You'll remember what you said. I called you and I was like, oh, my gosh, I almost got sex trafficked. And you go, aren't you a little old to be sex trafficked?

[Shane]

Sorry.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Thank you for that.

[Shane]

Sorry.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

I appreciate that. Anyway, seriously, though, like a for real warning, Women, be aware of your surroundings.

[Shane]

No, yeah, totally.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

And be aware when you take Ubers.

[Shane]

Always check the license plate.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Check the license plate. Don't give them your name first. Ask them, who are you looking for? Let them give you your name. Make sure that the license plates match up. Make sure that the description of the car matches up. And if you ever get a little inkling that something's off or you feel weird. Do not get in the car.

[Shane]

No.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

And I would also say don't ever take an Uber alone. I would say go in groups, go with a friend. Like, try not to do that alone. It's, it really was. I'm telling you.

[Shane]

No. But in some ways I'm glad you, you got exposed to that. So we can all. And when we talk, we pass it along to our kids. We can all be more careful because then I texted, you know, my daughters and, and everything. So it's like we can all learn from it.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yes. And even if there is a woman who looks kind and says, sweetheart, no, that's a flag. And, and tells you to get in the car and tells you it's fine.

[Shane]

Yeah, I know.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Just run.

[Shane]

Right?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

It's not even worth it.

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[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Are the not guilty verdicts justifiable? This is a USA Today article. The abuse described in the Diddy trial was real and criminal. But calling it trafficking does not help survivors. None of this minimizes what happened. The abuse described in the Combs case was real, harmful and criminal. But redefining it as trafficking simply because other laws didn't offer a viable path to justice does not help survivors. It undermines the integrity of the trafficking framework and could actually make it harder for victims of true trafficking to get the support and legal recognition they need. It's understandable why prosecutors turn to the Trafficking Victims Protection act, because trafficking cases come with longer statutes of limitations, more severe penalties, and more public support. And existing domestic violence statues are often outdated or ill equipped to address coercive control, especially when the abuser is wealthy, powerful and legally savvy. Basically, what this article is saying, it's trying to explain why what Combs did did not fit under a trafficking standard. And basically what they're saying is there is no legal recourse. It's either domestic violence recourse, which doesn't actually fit because he is a man with wealth and stature and he does use his money and fame to get what he wants, but that his actions don't actually fit under a trafficking legal standard. And that's where this wasn't the big.

[Shane]

Loss that, that it was consent. Right?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Well, it's. That's.

[Shane]

That was the weakest part of the whole.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Right. But the charge. But the problem is, is that I believe that there were times where it was consensual and then there were times where they didn't want to. To. And the problem is, is that the defense does a good job of pointing out that there were times of consent when they enjoyed it or when they wanted to or when they thanked him or when they were like, can't wait. And when you put that in the jury's mind, that's what the jury takes away. And it comes down to the jury has to decide whether these witnesses are credible and Even if they're credible and they've gone through a lot. The problem is, is that they go.

[Shane]

Back like, man, he really won this one. You would have thought there would have been one instant one where. Where. Yeah, one. And there was not one. They're saying it was all like with consent. Right. Because that's what the man act is. Right. So it's all with consent. Unbelievable. Yeah, unbelievable. And you know what worries me? Or maybe it doesn't worry me, but what I think is now he thinks, see, I didn't do anything wrong. I can keep doing what I'm doing. And just like he paid off everyone all the time and just it fueled him to keep doing what he wanted to do. Because he can get away with it.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Well, he's gotten away with it now.

[Shane]

He can get away with it here. Yeah.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Okay, here's my question, though. After all of this that he's been through, do you think he'll still have freak offs?

[Shane]

Well, no one's. They mean very few people that want to go to something like that. Like anyone that has a face that's like in Hollywood, you think they're going to want to go to that and be tied to him? No way. It'd be like no one's going to Epstein island after he got busted.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yeah.

[Shane]

No one wants to be seen with him.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

So you're saying it's more of like the. The community.

[Shane]

It was public suicide around him. Yeah, right. Social suicide.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Okay. The other problem with this case was that no human trafficking experts were called to the stand. One of the most telling omissions in this trial was the absence of a human trafficking expert witness, something virtually standard in most trafficking prosecutions. In typical cases, these experts are brought into account, explain the dynamics of power and coercion, as well as recruitment and control schemes typically used by traffickers. Here, both the prosecution and defense opted not to call such witnesses, likely because Combs conduct defied those standard frameworks. Instead, prosecutors called Don Hughes, who we talked about in previous episodes, a psychological expert on interpersonal violence who previously testified on behalf of Amber Heard and the Johnny Depp defamation case that stem from allegations of domestic abuse. Diddy's alleged trafficking enterprise did not resemble the classic modern slavery narrative. And a human trafficking expert might have inadvertently highlighted just how unusual this case was for a trafficking prosecution. So basically, what they're saying is it makes sense that the prosecution didn't call a trafficking expert, because if you had a trafficking expert come in and talk about what sex trafficking looks like, it does not resemble his methodology. And therefore, it would have been detrimental to the prosecution if they had done that instead of helping them in some way. So it comes down to this article states that we need stronger domestic violence laws. And you know what? The defense admits repeatedly, this is domestic violence.

[Shane]

Well, not only that, but you need education, because these people need to report it right away, not wait until much later. I mean, how many people were at these freak offs that probably could testify or show text messages or do something that would have helped the prosecution, but they chose not to for whatever reason?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Well, they chose not to because I think he's a scary man.

[Shane]

Well, yeah, yeah, that's a reason.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

I mean, you know, Cassie goes against him and starts dating somebody else. And he tries that. He breaks into kid Cudi's house, allegedly, and, you know, burns up his Porsche with a Molotov cocktail. Allegedly. You know, and then Capricorn Clark talks about how he, you know, used a gun to brandish it to get her in the car. And that was kidnapping.

[Shane]

You don't.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

But then she tries.

[Shane]

Way more cocky now. It's a big. See, I told you.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

You don't. So you think he's gonna be cockier instead of humbled by all of this? I feel like he.

[Shane]

Yeah, he's gonna be more careful now.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

You mean, you think he's just going to keep doing the stuff that he does?

[Shane]

But he shouldn't. He did it wrong. He should have been more like Charlie Sheen and just been out in the open being like, yeah, I got these ladies. Yeah, Pam, they love it. And it's just all out in the open. He's walking with one in each arm. He's like. He was public and it was like, this is my lifestyle.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yeah.

[Shane]

And he was being funny.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yeah. But the difference was, like, he was just sleeping with prostitutes.

[Shane]

I know, but he. I know. So no one could come forward and make it like it was not consensual because he was so out there and was so. Yep, that's Charlie Sheen. Whereas this. This is like, no one knew this about Puff Day. At least the general public didn't. And all of a sudden it comes out. So everyone wants to know more.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Well, no one knew about it because no one talked about it because of how violent he is. Yeah, I mean, he. He beat these women up. He was physically abusive.

[Shane]

Well, then maybe I should say that that's the difference between him and Charlie Sheen. Charlie Sheen was more of a.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Well, he was just open and honest. Flag fly. But he also wasn't, as far as I know. I don't think he was violent?

[Shane]

No.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Basically, what this comes down to is we need stronger domestic violence laws. Prosecutors may have used the trafficking because the statute of limitations had already expired on more direct charges such as sexual assault or battery.

[Shane]

Yeah, how. And what's the. What's the statute of limitations? I think it's like a year or something. Right. See, whatever it is, this is what's crap, is he can find the videos, he can find the evidence, he can shut them up for a year, whatever the statute of limitations is, and then it. It laps, and then now it's over. I mean, that. I don't know. I don't know. About one year.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

But that's why.

[Shane]

Or whatever.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

That's why they push so hard for the RICO and conspiracy charges, and that's why they tried to.

[Shane]

Well, then I would say that the prosecution just didn't do their job. Maybe they. It was an overreach.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Maybe.

[Shane]

Maybe they tried. They. They got ahead of themselves.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

It's not a reflection of the survivor's credibility. It's a failure of the legal system to account for how trauma actually works. Many victims of intimate partner violence, especially when facing fear, manipulation, or public scrutiny, wait years to come forward. That's not weakness. It's human. But the law hasn't caught up. When time runs out on prosecuting real crimes, prosecutors sometimes look for workarounds, and the trafficking statute offers one. But it wasn't designed to handle domestic abuse or intimate partner exploitation. I think that's where the sex trafficking failed, was it came down to. It's not your typical sex trafficking where someone is taken by force or by fraud and then put into this world of sex trafficking. You're talking about women that were his girlfriend, right? That they were. They, you know, had times where, you know, the defense shared these beautiful texts between them about how in love they were and how they needed each other and how happy they were together and how they were addicted to one another. And it's hard to take that when you hear that and you read those texts and then put it into a sex trafficking framework. And that's where the problem was. Let's get a little bit back to rico. We did talk about this earlier, but maybe let's just get into it a little bit more. Racketeering is the participation in an illegal scheme under the Racketeering Influence and Corrupt Organization Statute, or rico, as a way for the US Government to prosecute organizations that contribute to criminal activity. The term racketeering originates from the word racket, which originally referred to dishonest or Fraudulent business schemes, often involving extortion, coercion or intimidation. Notorious gangsters like Al Capone built criminal empires using racketeering tactics such as protection rackets, illegal gambling and bribery. Crimes must form a pattern, usually involving two or more acts. We talked about that. Two or more predicate acts within a 10 year period to constitute racketeering under RICO. And then also not just the two crimes, because I feel like those two criminal crimes within a 10 year period were established. It's also establishing that it was a criminal enterprise with a common goal and that everybody was involved, not just there.

[Shane]

Was a business and two crimes.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Right? Yeah. Diddy's response after the verdict was read. Upon hearing that he was acquitted on three of the five charges, Diddy got on his knees and placed his head down in a chair in a prayer like position according to.

[Shane]

I'm sorry, when did he start to pray?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

After they read the verdict because he was not guilty on the higher charges.

[Shane]

Of trafficking and the rico. As a gesture of thanking God.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yeah, he's the eye thanking God. Per the news organization.

[Shane]

He's thinking his God, which is the devil.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

He's thinking himself.

[Shane]

He's like, thank you, Satan. I knew you would, you would save me. Now let's continue the work.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Okay. Combs family stood in the courtroom, slapping, clapping. Not slapping. Sorry. They were clapping. Nobody was slapping anybody. Combs family stood in the courtroom clapping and cheering for the music mogul's fate. The defense attorneys hugged each other while Combs hugged.

[Shane]

Okay, this is the problem. So his daughters, I know at one point were at the trial, right?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

They were there in the very beginning.

[Shane]

So. So get this. What's he gonna do? Tell his daughters? No, no, no, it wasn't criminal. All my freak offs and my behavior and urinating in people's mouths or whatever he did.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Well, I think that was a Sex workers.

[Shane]

Whatever.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

He liked to masturbate.

[Shane]

Whatever. He's telling his girls, babe, it's all okay. It was consensual. So I'm your daddy. It's okay. I mean, that is. So you're saying it's still bad and they're there cheering, yay.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

He didn't.

[Shane]

It wasn't criminal. They all want. He's just a freak. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's what they're saying.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

I don't. I couldn't even understand why his kids were in the courtroom even though they were there in the beginning.

[Shane]

It was probably a tactic.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

They were there at that.

[Shane]

It was a tactic to, to tug at the jury's hearts.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Like, saying, yeah, like, he's a father. Like, look at my. You know, my daddy called children over there. But. Yeah, but is that something. I mean, is that something that you want your daughters to know?

[Shane]

No, but I mean, not that they couldn't see it in the public, you know, you know, tabloids and everything. But that's what I'm saying is, what's he gonna do? He tells his daughters, like, and his sons. Yeah, I did all those things, but it was. It was. You know, I'm just a freak. I'm not a criminal.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Well, that. I mean, that's basically. That's basically the defenses.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Closing arguments. Yeah.

[Shane]

He's gonna tell his kids that he can't go home. Be like, nah, not really. I didn't do any of that.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

All right, so what happens next? Now that Combs verdicts has been delivered, the U.S. district Judge Aaron Subramanian will review both the prosecution and defense's submitted sentencing recommendations. Next, the probation department will offer a sentencing recommendation. After their review of the case, the department will consider multiple factors, including Combs behavior while being detained throughout his federal trial and the fact that this is his first conviction of this type of charge. Okay, first of all, this is his first conviction.

[Shane]

I mean, that's. That's stupid because, like, hey, your honor, it was my first murder. Like, seriously, cut me a break. It was my first.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Okay, it's his first conviction. But we know that this has been going back since, like, the 90s. And there's also.

[Shane]

This is an opportunity where the judge. I don't know what they'll do, but they have an opportunity to give them the max. Like, you know what? You didn't get convicted all these crimes, but you're a nut. You're a freak, and you're a menace to society. And they put him. What's the max he could get?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

The max is 20 years. It'll be 10 years on each count.

[Shane]

Right.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

So the max that he could get.

[Shane]

Is 20 years, which I'm not saying he's going to get that. He's not likely.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

The judge will then review that recommendation until his sentencing hearing. Combs defense team has requested that he be released on a million dollars bond. They also requested a bail package in which he willingly surrenders his passport and restricts his travel to Florida, California, New York and New Jersey. However, the judge denied Sean Combs bail. He said that detention is required based on Combs conviction. He did not hear any arguments from the lawyers. The defendant's violence was starkly depicted in the 2016 Intercontinental video, the judge said, referencing the hotel security footage that showed him physically assaulting Cassie Ventura. The judge called Combs domestic violence. A quote, propensity for violence. It is impossible for the defendant to demonstrate that he possesses no danger to the community. So that's why his bail was denied.

[Shane]

Because he sounds so privileged. Like, oh, I only traveled these four states where I have big homes.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

I mean, I'll only go to my mansions.

[Shane]

Right? Wasn't it. Didn't, didn't he also say, like, the, the attorney said he wouldn't, he wouldn't engage with prostitution. I thought I saw that somewhere. I'm like, well, I'd hope not. That's like criminal activity. You're not supposed to be doing that.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yeah, they're like, he, he won't sleep with prostitutes.

[Shane]

Yeah, whatever. They should make it like, okay, fine, you want out on bail, you're going to live in this little apartment. You're gonna live on minimum wage and you have no contact with anyone.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

And you don't get prostitutes or free props and money.

[Shane]

Right.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

You gotta live.

[Shane]

Like, how do you want to get out? Yeah, actually, that's where he is now. He's in a cell. That's what he's doing.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

U S. District Judge Aaron Subramanian set combs sentencing on two counts of transportation to engage in prostitution for October 3rd at 10am so he is still in prison. He is going to remain there until October 3rd. He then will be sentenced. My guess is he'll get five years.

[Shane]

Well, he's already served. How much time?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

I think it's over a year now.

[Shane]

No, I think it was 10 months I saw this morning. Yeah, so it's 10 months.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

He'll get time served.

[Shane]

So he'll get. Yeah, that'll count, right? I don't know. You know, we're gonna find out. Is it. Which way is the judge gonna go? Or is it. I bet the judge is probably gonna just give him like a year or two.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

You think a year or two?

[Shane]

I. I don't know. I mean, these charges aren't really that horrific.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

They're not paper. But also, the judge did sit there for six weeks or eight weeks, however many weeks it was, and listen to testimony after testimony of the drugs.

[Shane]

Yeah, but how long has this judge been on the bench? If he had been there for 20 years, he's heard it all, and so it's not shocking.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Well, I don't know if he's seen it all because they showed videos of the freak offs.

[Shane]

Oh, oh, they did?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yes. And let me tell You. This, this is interesting because I think this is interesting to talk about. The prosecution showed small clips of the freak offs. Small clips that the juries got to see. The jury. The defense showed a 40 minute long clip of a freak off. Now what do you think they were doing?

[Shane]

Who's they?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

The defense. What's the difference? Why is the prosecution showing short little.

[Shane]

Because they probably show what works for the prosecution.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Right.

[Shane]

And then the 40 minute shows everyone going, this is the best party ever. We love stuff coming here, or whatever they're saying. So it shows consent.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Right. So the defense showing a long freak off, a 40 minute freak off is going to give you all this background and context.

[Shane]

In fact, it's even worse because then it's like, oh, the prosecution's being selective in what they're showing us. What else are they not showing us? So it looked even worse if the prosecution showed a few clips and then they say, no, let's play the whole thing.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yeah.

[Shane]

Are those going to be released? Would you like it gonna be on YouTube?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Would you like, would you like to see?

[Shane]

No, I just want to know what's going on.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Okay, first of all, here they, I've. Obviously there, there were. The court was closed, but I saw drawings and it showed the jurors, you know, watching, you know, don't tell me.

[Shane]

You'Re gonna get anything out of the paintings. No, but you can't paint a freak off. It's like, look at this oil painting. It's of a freak off.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

No, they didn't paint the freak offs, but they showed images that, that, you know, that the artist had painted of like the jury looking, you know, and looking at it. And then I watched someone giving their, their take because they were in the courtroom when it was going on. And in my mind I'm thinking, how awkward, how awkward is that, that you're sitting there and you're on the jury and you're watching like, first of all, it's hard for me to even visualize what these freak offs are. I mean, all the baby oil and the astro glide and the process.

[Shane]

I bet Sean Combs was sitting there going, oh, yeah, that day. That was a good one.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

And. And they're just watching it. Like, you're just.

[Shane]

Who took the videos?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

I don't.

[Shane]

Where'd they come from?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Probably an assistant. That's probably one of the freak off employees that you were talking about. There's probably a.

[Shane]

The freak off department. Archived.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yes. So, geez, I just, I cannot. I was so uncomfortable thinking about the jury just sitting there for 40 minutes watching porn.

[Shane]

I know.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

In a courtroom.

[Shane]

I know people are gonna have to take a lie detector one day. Like, have you ever seen porn? He's like.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Does Diddy's trial account. Yeah.

[Shane]

What if they go home and now they're like, you know, like it, like having regular, like, sex with their wives. Oh, they're not the same. Like now they're. What if they all come home and they're like, ordering baby oil? Like it's changed their perspective on things.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

I don't know, but I just.

[Shane]

They've gotten immune to it.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

It was awkward for me to think about the jury watching a 40 minute.

[Shane]

Clip or the stenographer, the knock. We're sitting there, like typing it all out, you know.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

No idea. Okay, let's just wrap the Bayless.

[Shane]

Probably all signing up like, hey, I want Tuesday. No, you get to know. I want Tuesday. That's when they're gonna show the videos, the bailiffs.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Oh, yeah, you're all about this, aren't you?

[Shane]

I don't know.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

You could just do a whole.

[Shane]

Well, they probably watch a bunch of boring. They probably go to a bunch of boring criminal charges.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

All right, so.

[Shane]

All right, so is he going to jail or what?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

I think he's going to serve time. Yes, but a lot of time.

[Shane]

No, two years. Let's predict. You think five years? Five years, I'm guessing, and I sure as hope I'm wrong. Two years. So what do you think? When is it? October 3rd is the sentencing hearing.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yeah. All right. I know just based upon my dms, that everyone is very upset by this verdict. And I think it's important to just distinguish between morality and legality. And I think we'll just end it with that. Clearly, Diddy is not a moral man.

[Shane]

No.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

He's not an upstanding citizen. He is violent. He is atrocious. He should not be walking amongst us. I think he should be in prison. That's just my personal thought. I don't think. I think he uses his wealth and power to intimidate, to force. He's violent. I. You know, that 1999 shooting, I'm sure he was involved and he got out of.

[Shane]

Oh, yeah.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

I think he's been, you know, involved in criminal activity and.

[Shane]

Well, let's hope this.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

What he wants to do.

[Shane]

In that case, we hope he serves some time. We hope the civil suits kind of drain him and hopefully no one really wants to associate themselves with him anymore. I mean, it's not. It's like you said legally, Burnett, it's Not morally Burnett.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

It's not morally Burnett. So that is the difference. That is why the verdict is the way it is.

[Shane]

The letter of the law.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Letter of the law. At the end of the day, I don't think the elements were met for the RICO charges and for the sex trafficking. The article that we talked about was a really good analysis of why what he did didn't fit under sex trafficking and then why the domestic abuse statutes don't work because of the statute of limitations. And so he fell into the middle of that and he just slipped through the cracks.

[Shane]

He going to get canceled like all his music. Like Bill Cosby. You can't, you can't watch the Cosby Show. You can't do anything.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

I mean, he should.

[Shane]

I know. They should have. They started that already, do you know?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

I don't know. I didn't ask. The canceling department. Department. I'll work on that. But anyway, again, just to reiterate the difference between moral and legal, this was more. The people are disgusted because this is more of a moral issue.

[Shane]

And for what it's worth, he's still in jail right now and he is.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

So we will follow it and if any, if there's anything else that comes out, we'll definitely talk about it, but we will follow it until October 3rd and see what the judge sentence him. So, yeah, there you go.

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[Jenna Ushkowitz]

All right, let's get a little bit into Brian Coburger because a lot of you have been reaching out to me about that and the Idaho murders. If you have not listened, you can go back and find. I mean, I think you can go back and find. We did an episode on the ID Idaho murders, which I, I actually enjoyed doing that episode because it's so, it was so.

[Shane]

Well, there's a lot of evidence, it.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Was a lot of evidence to discuss. It was very, I feel like we did a very detailed analysis. We talked about it, we talked about the timeline and everything. So Brian Coburger was supposed to go on to trial in August, but apparently I think this was yesterday, he pled guilty. So Brian Coburger, the 30 year old criminal justice PhD student charged with the murders of four University of Idaho students back in 2022, admitted to the crimes in court on Wednesday, July 2, before formally entering a guilty plea. Remember he was arrested back in December of 2022 in Pennsylvania after forensic evidence linked him to the murders, including DNA found on a knife sheath at the crime scene and cell phone data placing him near the victim's home multiple times. Remember we talked about the knife sheath they, that was left behind. It had DNA on it. It, they use the DNA to, they ran it through those, to a system.

[Shane]

Like through the familial like DNA system.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yeah. And I think they got a hit on his dad and then they, and then I remember they went to his residence and they went through the trash.

[Shane]

Right.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

To get his DNA and then that's how they linked him to the crimes Also, the cell phone data showed that he had driven by their home multiple.

[Shane]

Times and turned off his phone.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

And turned off his phone and things like that. That. As part of his plea deal, Coburger pleaded guilty to four counts of first degree murder and the stabbings of Ethan, Zanna, Madison and Kaylee, who were killed in their home. This is a college house in Moscow, Idaho, during the early morning hours of November 13, 2022. He was also charged with one count of burglary. Coburger faces up to four consecutive life sentences without the possibility of parole. One for each murder charge and a 10 year sentence sentence for the burglary charge. With this deal, Coburger gives up all rights to appeal, making the sentences final.

[Shane]

He. He's never coming out then, right?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Oh, no, he never. There's.

[Shane]

But if he pled guilty, that means he knew. I mean, he is. His defense attorney's probably told him. There's so much evidence against you. Yeah, you're screwed. And the only thing you can do is try to not get the death penalty.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

If Coburger was convicted at trial, prosecutors were seeking the death penalty, likely by firing squad, making the stakes extremely high. Coburger's defense pushed for delays, tried to block most of the prosecution's evidence against him, and even suggested a list of alternate perpetrators who they claim could have committed the killings. But the judge denied most of their motions, allowing a tidal wave of evidence to be presented against Coburger at his trial, which was scheduled for next month. I think a lot of these motions that they were filing try to get evidence withheld. None of it stood. Stood. And I think that's when they were like, look like the mountain of evidence against you is.

[Shane]

Yeah, you're no Diddy combs, buddy.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

It's a lot. So you might want to take a plea deal.

[Shane]

Good.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

There was overwhelming evidence against Coburger. Prosecutors had amassed DNA evidence, including the knife sheath with his DNA, cell phone geolocation data linking him to the crime scene, Amazon purchase history that showed he bought the knife and sharpener a few months before the murders. And video footage of a car that looked just like his was circling the home of the victims. I don't remember which college student, but she also saw him. Remember he had the black mask on and she saw him in the house and she said he had the bushy eyebrows. Then he took that selfie the next morning.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Which the prosecution wanted to enter. That showed that he had bushy eyebrows. And I know the defense tried to suppress that. They got it in also remember, he Said he was like, what did he say? He liked to look at stars or something and that's why he was driving around at 3am around their house like he, he was a stargazer or something like that. The plea was accepted on July 2, 2025 by Judge Steven Hipler. He will formally sentence Coburger on July 23rd in Boise, Idaho. The sentencing is expected to take one day and victim impact statements will be read at that time. I don't know. What do you think about someone like that being able to take a plea deal? I mean, I understand that it alleviates the cost on, on the state, on the court system. Yeah, but taxpayers money.

[Shane]

But isn't it up to the victim's families to, or, or is it just a courtesy thing where they usually talk to the victim's families to see if they're okay with it? Because I've seen that happen before. I don't know if it's a legal thing or if it's just a courtesy thing to say. Are you okay with allowing for a plea deal?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

You know, I don't know if there were discussions with the family before the.

[Shane]

Plea deal, but I know that that does happen on occasion, right?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yeah.

[Shane]

Because then sometimes the family would be like, we don't want to testify, we don't want to be a part of it. We just want to put it to rest and go home. Yeah, I don't know if that, that took place in this.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

I don't know. But you know, on one hand it's like I want, I, I wanted this guy to go to trial because I had so many questions. Remember when we did the episode, I was like, I can't wait for trial because I feel like a lot of things will be answered.

[Shane]

Well, I think. Aren't all those things answered now that he pled guilty? No, I was his knife.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

No, I had questions that had to do with when she saw him in the house. Why did it take so long before she called the police? Then they were in the room together.

[Shane]

Well, there might be interviews with those. Those.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yeah, I mean, maybe some of that. Obviously they were tight lipped because they were going to trial. So I was, I was looking forward to the trial.

[Shane]

There'll be something.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

The questions that I had about this case were hopefully answered. So now that there's a plea deal, I don't know. Legal experts weigh in on this case. Gretchen Engel, the executive director of the center for Death Penalty Litigation, said that in her experience, it's pretty common for a plea deal to come together at the very last minute. However, she said she is a bit mystified that prosecutors in this case agreed to a deal just a month before trial. One reason could be that there's a weakness in the case. CBS News legal contributor Caroline Polisi. Policey said the state of Idaho will benefit from the plea deal, especially since Coburger will not be able to appeal. And that may also offer relief to the families. They're getting a conviction right away. They're getting the absolute guarantee of life behind bars without the possibility of parole. It costs way more money to have a capital case to impose the death penalty than it does to have somebody serve life behind bars.

[Shane]

Wait, he agreed? So he's plea. He pled guilty. And he. We already know that the outcome will be life behind bars.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Well, that's what his plea deal was. He. They took the death penalty.

[Shane]

Well, okay, but sometimes. Sometimes there's plea deals, and you don't know what the sentencing is.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

No.

[Shane]

And you just. You just accept it. You. You agree to accept whatever it is that the judge throws at you. In this case, part of the plea deal was the sentencing.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yeah, I think it was take the death penalty off of the table. I'll plead guilty, and then I'll just get a life sentence without the possibility.

[Shane]

Because, you know, that happens sometimes. They'll plea guilty, but you don't know what you're sensing. But you don't know what the sentencing is. And that's the risk you take.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Right.

[Shane]

Because I've seen that with usually, like, DUI cases and stuff.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Right.

[Shane]

And then they'll be like, okay, I'll plead guilty. Then they get, like, 20 years. And, like, what?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

I guess the benefits of him taking a plea deal is it costs way more money to have a capital case to impose the death penalty than it does to have somebody serve life behind bars.

[Shane]

So contrary to what people think, it's more expensive to. To push someone for capital punishment than it is to put him in jail for the rest of their life.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Part of the rationale that the state of Idaho and prosecutors said was we're saving these families the anguish of going through the appeals process. This would not be a quick process. I mean, a capital case is. Always has an automatic appeal.

[Shane]

Oh. After appeal.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yeah.

[Shane]

So Autumn. But in this case, he pleads guilty. He goes. He gets sentenced, as you said. He goes to jail the next day, and it's over.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yeah.

[Shane]

And now, hopefully, the families, you know, find some peace or just be able to move on, which, you know, is easier said than done.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

The plea deal also Allows the state to have judicial resources and avoids the uncertainty of a trial and sentencing. This is a slam dunk case by all accounts. The DNA evidence on the knife sheath in particular, there's so much evidence here, she said. But trials, there's always a wild card, right. There's always a chance that there wouldn't be a conviction. Then there's the death penalty. It's isn't necessarily a sure thing either. However, the lack of a trial means that some questions may remain unanswered. We may never know the motive or the exact way that this crime took place, which I think is frustrating for the families as well. That's what, that's the first. I understand the, the benefit is these families don't have to sit there and listen and relive what happened that night.

[Shane]

People know how long. Yeah.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

They don't have to go through the appeals process. They don't have to look at him sitting in court every day knowing that they, they took, you know, they can.

[Shane]

Just know he's in jail now forever.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Forever. However, you're probably not going to get, like, the questions I had and the questions that they probably have, those are never going to get answered. And you just have to be.

[Shane]

Maybe one day he'll do a, you know, interview or something. Yeah.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

One of the families is against the plea deal. That's the Gonco. I never say this, right. And people tell me, Gonsalves, Gonsalves family, Aubrey Gonsalves, the family of Kaylee Gonsalves. Said Brian Coburger, facing a life in prison means he would still get to speak, form relationships and engage with the world. Meanwhile, our loved ones.

[Shane]

Oh, yeah. You don't think there's any females constantly messaging this guy, sending him letters? And you know what that gets that part of? He still gets a life, albeit in a cell. He still gets a life.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Yeah. And I mean, some. A lot of times people create a life that's not so bad. You know, you get three meals a day. You can have friends. You get an education.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

You can still talk to family.

[Shane]

Yeah. You can do a lot more than as if you were dead.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

You get access to Internet. Meanwhile, our loved ones have been silenced forever. That really stings more deeply when it feels like the system is protecting his future more than honoring the victim's past. From the Goncourt. From the Gonsalves family social media post. We are beyond furious at the state of Idaho. They have failed us. Please give us some time. This was very unexpected.

[Shane]

I would say that it's understandable if a family is happy with the plea deal. And it's understandable if a family is.

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Not happy with the right. And in contrast to that, the Mogan family is in support of it. Ben Mogan, father of Madison Mogan, in an interview with cbs, said, if you get that cross quick death sentence, you don't have to spend decades thinking about how terrible you made the world. We can actually put this behind us and not have these future dates and future things that we don't want to have to be at. We get to just think about the rest of our lives and have to try and figure out how to do it without Maddie and the rest of the kids.

[Shane]

Yeah. And it won't be on the news over and over again if you're changing channels and you see them on there because they're giving updates. It's just. He's in jail, right?

[Jenna Ushkowitz]

Exactly. So we were actually going to cover or do our best to do some episodes on the Brian Coburger trial because it was coming up in August. But now that he took a plea deal, we'll move on to other cases. So as always, if you guys have interesting cases out there that you would like us to discuss, please DM me. We're always happy to hear your thoughts, your critiques, your questions, your comments. So thank you for doing that and thank you for listening.

[Shane]

Thank you.

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