Legally Brunette: The Menendez Brothers

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Legally Brunette: The Menendez Brothers"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge
• Host/Authors: Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge
• Producer: iHeartPodcasts
• Episode: Legally Brunette: The Menendez Brothers
• Release Date: December 10, 2024

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Introduction

In the inaugural episode of "Legally Brunette," hosts Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge delve deep into the infamous case of the Menendez brothers—Lyle and Eric—who were convicted for the brutal murders of their parents in 1989. The episode aims to unpack the complexities of the case, exploring both the legal intricacies and the evolving societal perceptions surrounding it.

Background of the Menendez Murders [03:16 – 10:43]

Teddi begins by providing a succinct overview of the case, recalling the shocking murders that took place in the ostensibly serene Beverly Hills home of Jose and Mary Louise Menendez. "I remember back in 1989 when this murder happened... I had a completely different perspective on it than I do now" (03:40). The brothers claimed self-defense, alleging years of sexual and physical abuse by their father, while prosecutors contended that the motive was financial gain, seeking an inheritance estimated at $14 million.

Lyle and Eric were initially tried separately, each with their own jury, leading to two hung juries. The protracted and complex nature of the trial, with its extensive character witness testimonies, underscored the divisions in public and judicial opinion.

Media Portrayal Then and Now [10:43 – 18:20]

As the conversation shifts, Teddi reflects on the media's role in shaping the narrative. "Back in the 80s and the 90s... made fun of the Menendez brothers... because there was not the recognizing that sexual abuse could occur" (07:14). Shows like "Saturday Night Live" ridiculed the brothers, emphasizing their privileged backgrounds and dismissing their abuse claims.

Fast forward to 2024, the case has witnessed a resurgence in popularity, fueled by documentaries like Netflix's "Monsters" and a new documentary featuring interviews with Lyle and Eric from prison. This renewed interest, particularly among younger generations active on platforms like TikTok, has shifted the discourse towards sympathy for the brothers, focusing on their alleged abuse.

Analysis of Evidence and Trial [18:20 – 35:37]

The hosts meticulously analyze the evidence presented during the trials. Notably, they highlight the brutality of the murders, with multiple close-range shotgun wounds inflicted on both parents. "The brothers claim the killings were in self-defense... prosecutors argued that the brothers killed their parents in a bid to inherit their wealth" (10:43).

Key points of contention include:

• Premeditation vs. Self-Defense: While the purchase of shotguns and the planning of alibis suggest premeditation, the brothers maintained that their actions were a response to prolonged abuse.

• Suppression of Abuse Evidence: In the second trial, the judge excluded substantial evidence regarding the alleged abuse, leading to convictions of first-degree murder and life sentences without the possibility of parole.

• Behavior in Prison: Both brothers have exhibited commendable behavior, earning degrees and assisting other inmates, which is cited as a factor in their potential for resentencing.

Resentencing vs. Habeas Petition [35:37 – 45:23]

Teddi introduces the current legal avenues being pursued to potentially overturn or lessen the brothers' sentences:

1. Habeas Petition: Filed in May 2023, this petition introduces new evidence supporting the abuse claims, including testimonies from Roy Rossello of Menudo and a letter Eric wrote outlining the abuse.

2. Resentencing Hearing: Scheduled for January 30th, this approach focuses on the brothers' exemplary behavior in prison and the support they receive from their families and society.

Teddi questions, "Do you think that they should be resentenced to a lesser sentence which would allow them to be immediately eligible for parole?" (46:19). Shane offers a nuanced perspective, acknowledging the difficulty in judging actions rooted in trauma: "I have sympathy for people in that situation. And I know there's the battered woman syndrome..." (46:27).

Interview with Alexandra, Attorney Representing the Menendez Brothers [51:27 – 59:42]

The episode features an insightful interview with Alexandra, an attorney representing Lyle and Eric Menendez. She elaborates on the legal strategies being employed, expressing a preference for resentencing over a new trial due to its potential for a cleaner and swifter resolution.

Key Highlights from Alexandra:

• Resentencing vs. Habeas: "The resentencing is cleaner because... they're immediately released" (53:16).

• Brothers' Conduct in Prison: Alexandra emphasizes their transformation, noting, "They have been model citizens, but there are no other inmates that I have ever heard of that are like them" (54:25).

• Future Prospects: Upon potential release, the brothers aim to continue their advocacy work, particularly in prison reform and supporting abuse victims.

• Public Perception and Media Impact: Alexandra underscores the importance of recent media attention in reshaping the narrative, highlighting how the brothers are now seen more as victims rather than perpetrators.

Societal Implications and Changing Perceptions [35:37 – 60:42]

The discussion underscores a significant shift in societal attitudes towards recognizing male victims of abuse. Teddi asserts, "If they were females, I think the abuse allegations that they made would have been believed" (48:29). This revelation challenges previous biases and highlights the evolving understanding of gender and abuse dynamics.

Moreover, the rise of platforms like TikTok has introduced a new generation to the case, fostering empathy and support for the brothers based on their alleged victimization. This generational shift contrasts sharply with the earlier dismissal and ridicule the brothers faced.

Conclusion and Future Outlook [60:42]

As the episode wraps up, Teddi and Shane contemplate the future of the Menendez brothers. With the upcoming resentencing hearing and ongoing legal battles, the brothers' legacy remains a contentious and evolving narrative. Alexandra expresses optimism, emphasizing the transformative work the brothers have done within the prison system and their potential contributions post-release.

Notable Quotes:

• Teddi Mellencamp: "If they were females, I think the abuse allegations that they made would have been believed." (48:29)
• Shane Simpson: "Murder's never an option." (45:23)
• Alexandra (Attorney): "They are victims... it's healing for them to see that they are being recognized as victims, not just as monsters." (57:46)

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Key Takeaways:

• The Menendez brothers' case remains a pivotal moment in legal history, illustrating the complexities of abuse claims intertwined with criminal actions.
• Societal perceptions have shifted, with newer generations offering a more empathetic view towards the brothers based on their alleged victimization.
• The legal pathways for potential resentencing are fraught with challenges but offer a glimmer of hope for re-evaluation of long-standing convictions.

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Note: This summary omits all advertisement segments present in the transcript, focusing solely on the substantive podcast content to provide a comprehensive overview for listeners and non-listeners alike.

Transcript

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[Emily Simpson]

Hi guys. Welcome to our very first episode of Legally Brunette. I will be your host today, Emily Simpson. And I felt like the best co host for kind of like a pop culture slash legal podcast would be with my husband, Shane Simpson. And so are you excited to be here?

[Shane Simpson]

I am because I know you have a lot of knowledge on this, so I'm ready to hear it.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. So we're very excited for our first episode to be about the Menendez brothers, the murders where we're at currently. And I think what we're trying to do is kind of pack as much information about Menendez as we can into one episode. As you all know, it's been a cultural phenomenon. I remember back in 1989 when this murder happened, I was a young girl in Menendez, Middletown, Ohio, and I used to watch this trial on Court tv. Now, clearly back at that time, I had a completely different perspective on it than I do now. But I'm just wondering, did you know about the murders because you grew up in California?

[Shane Simpson]

I did. I did. I didn't know it as much. I didn't follow it like you did. The way I followed it was through David Letterman. He did a lot of top 10 lists that would include the Menendez brothers. Jay Leno did a lot of jokes about it. So for that reason, I always saw it, but I had no opinion of it other than they killed their parents for money. That was my knowledge. Although I'm not saying that's correct, but that's what I knew of it back then.

[Emily Simpson]

And you know, when you think about that time period back in the 80s and the 90s, I do believe that that was the story that the media perpetuated, that you had two wealthy, good looking young guys that grew up in Beverly Hill that led a very privileged lifestyle and then decided that they wanted their parents money and they murdered them and Even me following it on Court TV and the media, that was my takeaway back then. And so I really feel like it's so interesting that 35 years later, here we are talking about this case, and I was trying to understand what has made it come back up and be such a huge phenomenon that all these kids are making tiktoks about it. You know, there was the recent release of Monsters on Netflix, which, by the way, let's just be clear that Monsters is a dramatization. It's not a documentary. And then there was the recent docu documentary on Netflix where it's actually Eric and Lyle speaking from prison. And I read something the other day that I thought was really interesting because I did not realize this, but this surge of tiktokers, who is a completely different generation than you and I when we were growing up, Their fascination with this case comes from during the pandemic, when we were all in quarantine, Court TV was running reruns of the Menendez trial.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, is that what. I wondered what started it.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. And I didn't. I didn't understand that either, because I knew that there were all these tick tockers that were making tick tocks about the Menendez brothers, and it was all basically the same theme, that they should go free.

[Shane Simpson]

Well, wait a minute. That's interesting. That means tick tockers are watching Court tv.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes, that was the part where that I was like, why are TikTokers watching Court TV? But apparently they were running reruns of Court TV. They ran the Menendez trial during the pandemic, and it caught on. And this new generation watched a lot of the trial and then probably saw snippets of the trial on social media.

[Shane Simpson]

Sure.

[Emily Simpson]

And the consensus now, it's a completely different phenomena, is that they should be released because they were abused by their parents. And I was thinking about this, and this is what I do. This is what keeps me up at night. I was thinking about how during our generation, we're kids. We're Gen X. Right.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

We're born in the 70s. We were kids in the 80s, and we were in high school and College in the 90s. In our generation, I think, made fun of the Menendez brothers, like you said, because there was not the recognizing that sexual abuse could occur with no noise.

[Shane Simpson]

Then you have someone like me who's not really paying attention, but yet it's thrown in my face all the time in all the, you know, shows that I'm watching and news flashes or whatever, and, you know, and, you Know, certainly I, as an 18 year old kid, I'm not paying attention, but I'm, it's thrown at me that they're guilty, that they killed their parents, that they wanted to be, you know, rich. And so you just assume that that's the case.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. And I even remember seeing Saturday Night Live snippets where they would make fun of them with the sweaters, with the blue and the pink sweaters, because that's, you know, remember in their first trial.

[Shane Simpson]

Well, then they'd always have the bad hairstyles.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. Because Lyle had the toupees. So they would always have the bad hair and the.

[Shane Simpson]

But then again, you're downplaying, you're, you're showing that these, when you're making fun of them, even down to their hairstyles, what you're saying, you're discrediting them as valid people as, as kids that might have issues and problems and there might be more depth to the crime other than just privileged kids or immature kids or something.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. And that's why I find this case so interesting. Now here we are in 2024 and a different generation has latched onto this case and these kids are more accepting. You know, we were Gen X. There was, you know, it was, you were lucky if you got a sandwich from your parents. So I think this new generation of kids have been coddled more. There's more therapy, there's gluten free, there's, there's more acceptance of a lot of things that go into your psyche and understanding psychological factors. And so that's where we are with Menendez. But let's just go through, because I know you don't know a lot about the case and I know so much about this case, I could spend an entire, probably nine hours just talking about the facts of this case. But I'm not going to do that.

[Shane Simpson]

Please don't.

[Emily Simpson]

I'm just going to do a brief synopsis of some of the facts of the night that it happened and then we'll just go from there. So Lyle and Eric Menendez were convicted of the 1989 murders of their parents, Jose and Mary Louise Menendez, who goes by the name Kitty, in their Beverly Hills home, which, by the way, the address is 722 North Elm Drive. And I actually drove there, you know that I made a video. I, I was in LA and I was really close to the house and so I could not miss the opportunity. So I actually drove over to the home and parked in front of it. And I will tell you, it is Such a beautiful, calm, serene, magnificent Beverly Hills neighborhood that when I was standing there, I'm trying to visualize cold blooded.

[Shane Simpson]

Murders, well, taking place.

[Emily Simpson]

I mean, a brutal, brutal murder taking place right there in the home. Some of the forensics who worked on the Menendez murder scene describe it as the most brutal murder scene that they had ever witnessed. The brothers claim the killings were in self defense after years of sexual and physical abuse by their father, Jose Menendez. But prosecutors argued that the brothers killed their parents in a bid to inherit their wealth, which at the time was supposedly around $14 million, which is what they would inherit. And again, this is back in 1989.

[Shane Simpson]

A lot of money.

[Emily Simpson]

You're talking about a lot of money.

[Shane Simpson]

A lot of money today. Certainly a lot back then.

[Emily Simpson]

After a highly publicized trial, the first jury was unable to reach a verdict. Actually, there were two juries in the first trial. I don't know if you knew that. Each boy. So Lyle and Eric, they each had their own jury during the first trial. And there were actually times when if there were specific witnesses that were speaking to something that had specifically to do with Eric or had to do with Lyle, the other jurors would have to leave the courtroom. So can you imagine that?

[Shane Simpson]

Logistically, that's. That's a lot, right?

[Emily Simpson]

Also, I believe the defense had 55. I might not be right about that, but it was an exorbitant amount of character witnesses who testified on behalf of Lyle and Eric. So can you imagine just how long this trial took? The depths of it, the character witnesses, two different juries? I don't know exactly. I think it was maybe eight months. Don't quote me on that. But it was a long trial. They were sentenced after their second trial, which was in 1996. It resulted in both brothers being convicted of first degree murder. They were sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Also, there are. I'll just go into a little bit, just a brief overlay, but there. A lot of people question the second trial because the judge precluded a lot of the sexual abuse evidence that was disclosed in the first trial. There were a lot of motions filed by the prosecution in the second trial which precluded a lot of that evidence.

[Shane Simpson]

That brings up a lot of questions for me because it's like, why wouldn't you present the same evidence? You know, was it. And I don't know the answers, but was it the judge thinking, well, let's shake it up, because the jury couldn't convict or find or affirm, you know, not guilty so let's shake it up to try to get an outcome. Why wouldn't you present the same evidence? And if you present the same evidence and you get the same outcome, which is a hung jury, well, then that goes to show there's not enough evidence to convict.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't disagree with what you're saying. I'll give you a little bit of a timeline. When the Menendez brothers went to trial for their second. For the second trial, it was, I believe, eight days after the O.J. simpson verdict of not guilty. And the DA's office was looking like an incompetent office.

[Shane Simpson]

Well, they were an incompetent office after the O.J. trial.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. And so I think that a lot of that went into the judge's decisions. Now, here's where I have questions. I am not a judge, but I don't know exactly what authority a judge acted on that. He precluded a lot of the sexual abuse evidence. In the second trial. Also, I don't think there was a manslaughter option. There were. There was either not guilty.

[Shane Simpson]

Wait, in the first trial, what was. What were the charges?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, it was premeditated manslaughter or not guilty.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay, well, always not guilty. What were the charges in the second trial?

[Emily Simpson]

It was either. They could either be convicted of premeditated murder or not guilty. I don't think there was a manslaughter option because there wasn't. There wasn't the allowance of any mitigating factors of the abuse. Also, Lyle did not take the stand and the second trial because he had made a mistake and had spoken to a woman named Norma Nolli. I believe that she was having phone conversations with him over a long period of time from prison. And I believe he made some incriminating statements that had to do with his acting ability, could have brought that in and. Exactly. So he did not testify on the stand because he. Because he could have been impeached with that. So, you know, the second trial was completely different than the first trial. They ended up getting convicted of premeditated murder, life without parole. So that's where we're at today. And now here we are, 35 years.

[Shane Simpson]

Later, convicted of the same or both with the same sentencing.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes.

[Shane Simpson]

Without parole.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes, both.

[Shane Simpson]

And life without parole is different than life. A lot of people think you hear life, but life is, I think, 20 years in California, not necessarily life, but then life without parole is truly what we think of as life in prison, which is you are not being released, which means regardless of your behavior in prison, you will not be released.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

Which can lead someone to think, well, then when you go to prison and you got nothing to lose, you try to escape, you don't follow the rules, you're not incentivized for good behavior. And I think that will come up later. So I decided to mention that.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. So 35. Here we are 35 years later, and this case has just been huge. Mostly because of the Monsters that came out on Netflix. Which you did not watch.

[Shane Simpson]

No, but I've heard you watching it every night for the last few months.

[Emily Simpson]

I've watched it.

[Shane Simpson]

She falls asleep to Monsters.

[Emily Simpson]

I think I've watched it maybe three times at this point.

[Shane Simpson]

And then people go, why is Emily so angry all the time? Well, she falls asleep to true crime and monsters.

[Emily Simpson]

I do want to make clear, though, that I know a lot of people have watched Monsters, and we just have to clarify that Monsters is a dramatization. I do think that there are a lot of factual things in Monsters, but there are also a lot of scenes that are the creator's imagination. There are scenes between Jose and Kitty that no one could have known what they said or what happened. They're obviously a creation. I also think that the characters of life, Lyle and Eric and monsters, were very, very one dimensional. They made Eric out to be kind of a depressed, sad, weak person. And they clearly made Lyle the aggressor. I think every scene that Lyle's in, he's arguing, fighting, or yelling at someone. And question what?

[Shane Simpson]

Which I think the viewers or listeners will have. Which one of the brothers is the one with no hair? Which is the one with hair? That'll help me identify who's.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay. Eric is the younger brother. He was 18 when they committed the murders, and he has a full head of hair.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

And then Lyle is the older brother. He was 21 when the murders were committed. And he has a toupee. Well, I don't. In prison now, if you see photos of them now, he just shaved his head. He's bald.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay. All right.

[Emily Simpson]

But when he was younger, in his 20s, he wore a toupee. And Eric even says that he did not know his brother wore a toupee. And there's a scene in Monsters where it shows Kitty ripping off Lyle's toupee. And apparently, according to interviews with Lyle and Eric, that was true. That really did happen. She got angry. She ripped his toupee off, and Eric had no idea that he had worn a toupee.

[Shane Simpson]

That's a little insight into their. The way their dinners are taking place.

[Emily Simpson]

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[Emily Simpson]

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[Emily Simpson]

All right, so here's something I just want to do. There are lots of lots of documentaries, TV series. There's films that have to do with the Menendez. You know, I think for me the one that I would suggest someone watching if you're if you're trying to get into the Menendez for the first time and you want some background information, I do like the most recent documentary that is on Netflix. It's Lyle and Eric, their interview from prison. I think that it gives a lot of background information. It interviews the prosecutor. It interviews Lyle and Eric. It gives a lot of insight. It interviews cops, police, involved detectives. It's very interesting, and I think it's a good synopsis of what happened. There's a lot of things out there that are TV movies and things like that. I don't know. I find them to be highly dramatized. But anyway, let's get into. Here's something I want to do because I want to hear your thoughts on this, because you never agree with anything I say. But the biggest question right now is, should they be released? Because where we're at now is there's two options. There's the habeas petition, and there's also a resentencing request.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay, well, explain the habeas petition.

[Emily Simpson]

The habeas petition was filed back in May of 2023. And actually, we'll have Alexandra on in a little bit, who is the current. She represents the Menendez brothers currently. So we'll get some more insight into that. But the habeas petition was basically based on some new evidence that came forward that corroborated the abuse. And those two pieces of new evidence is one, there is the man named Roy Rossello. There is a new documentary. It's not on Netflix. I'm not sure where it's at, but it's the Menudo Menendez documentary.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay, so the habeas petition is just new evidence that they want to introduce.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay. In lay terms.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

And then the second one was a resentencing hearing.

[Emily Simpson]

The second one is a resentencing hearing, and it's basically a request to resentence. And it's based on a lot of factors. I'm not sure exactly what all those factors are, but it's basically like the family supports them. They've been model prisoners during their time. There has been some corroboration of abuse. They've been in prison long enough. Their family supports them. They're not a menace to society. No one suspects that they would commit crimes if they were released back to.

[Shane Simpson]

The life without parole. So they're not incentivized for good behavior in hopes of getting out, but yet they're maintaining good behavior. And I think they were working on their education and they were supporting other prisoners in probably reforming and abuse.

[Emily Simpson]

They work with hospice patients. They work with abuse sufferers of abuse. They've been model prisoners. And like you said, it's very significant that they were doing those things, never thinking that there was a chance for them to Be paroled.

[Shane Simpson]

Correct.

[Emily Simpson]

All right, I just want to go into a little bit of an analysis because you're an attorney. And let's just talk about some of the things that make this a premeditated, brutal murder that would suggest that they should stay in prison. So Eric wrote a screenplay about a teen killing his parents for their inheritance. Before the murders, they also supposedly watched a movie called the Billionaire Boys Club, which was about murdering their parents for.

[Shane Simpson]

Money, which starred Judd Nelson, by the.

[Emily Simpson]

Way, have you seen that movie? You are a big.

[Shane Simpson]

When I was in high school, I watched it.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, you might have watched it the same night the Menendez brothers watched it.

[Shane Simpson]

It possibly. They bought that that was a murder of a parent.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. But was it for an. For money, for an inheritance?

[Shane Simpson]

It was for gain. Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay. They bought the shotguns and the ammunition two days prior to the murders. They used a fake ID to buy the guns. And let's just talk a minute because I think this is just to be fair, we have to talk about the brutality of the murders.

[Shane Simpson]

Hold on, before you get to the brutality.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane Simpson]

Those facts that you stated two days before they bought ammunition or whatever you said, that would take place regardless of the intent behind the murders, if they were going to kill and eliminate their parents because of abuse, they'd still have to go get a gun. They'd still have to do all those things. So that doesn't sway someone. That shouldn't sway someone as to the motive or the reasoning behind the murders.

[Emily Simpson]

I think, though. But when you buy the guns two days.

[Shane Simpson]

Although the high school script is a little.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane Simpson]

A little questionable because I didn't write a high school script on killing your parents.

[Emily Simpson]

No. I think, though, that the fact that they bought the guns two days prior and there was a cooling off period and there wasn't anything that happened. Well, I mean, they do claim that they were scared for their life. Their first defense was an imperfect self defense. That's where you have to really put yourself in the mind of someone that's been sexually and physically abused. And I've never been through that. So it's hard for me to put myself in someone's shoes.

[Shane Simpson]

And I'm guessing an imperfect self defense is when they're under the reasonable belief that they have a defense, but legally they do not. Or factually, perhaps, they are incorrect.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. That is where us from a reasonable standard looking into it, we would say your life wasn't in jeopardy, but from them, given their own circumstances.

[Shane Simpson]

Right. The equivalent would be if someone comes at me with a fake Gun, and I defend myself. And then after the fact, we learned that the fake. The gun was fake. And I never was really under any threat of death.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

All right, so let's get a little bit into the brutality of the murders just on that evening. They used Mossberg shotguns. They were pump action shotguns. They went into the foyer where their parents were sitting watching tv. They were watching. Watching a movie. They were seated on the couch. I believe they were eating ice cream. And they shot them at close range. There were 10 shots that hit Jose and I believe. No, 10 hit Kitty, five hit Jose. You're talking about brutal, in your face, upfront murders.

[Shane Simpson]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

Which to me, if I think about it as an adult, there's a lot of rage. That's a rage killing.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, yeah. That's not. One shot to the head, they're dead. Okay. Mission accomplished.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

That's the I want you freaking dead.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. And also, I have a question.

[Shane Simpson]

Were there any words exchanged prior to that that we know of, whether it's accurate or not?

[Emily Simpson]

No, not that I. Not that I've ever read or heard in testimony. Basically what happened was they got the shotguns out of the car. They entered into the foyer of their home. Each son had a shotgun. They busted through the double doors that were closed of the den. TV room. It was a wood paneled room. And they just began firing at close range. And actually, Kitty fell to the ground. She jumped up from the couch. She put her hand up in front of her face, a defensive hand to stop the shot. She screamed, no. Something to that effect. She fell to the ground. She was not dead. She tried to crawl away. They went back to the car, reloaded, and entered the house. And Lyle shot her in the face.

[Shane Simpson]

After Kitty was already dead.

[Emily Simpson]

No, she was not dead. She was.

[Shane Simpson]

I'm sorry, I missed that part.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay. She was still. She was shot. She was still alive. She was crawling.

[Shane Simpson]

Where was she shot? Why. Why did they shoot one in the head and not the other?

[Emily Simpson]

Lyle walked around to the back of the couch and shot Jose in the back of the head.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

So it basically eviscerated his brain.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay, okay, so that was without any warning.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

But then. Then the mother probably had some reaction.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, she jumped up and apparently she put her arms up so she had shots through, you know, her hand and her arm.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

She. I think she had a shot in the face. She fell to the ground. She was not dead.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

Jose was killed instantly. He was shot in the back of the head. Kitty did not die instantly. She was on the ground. She was crawling to get away. They went back to the car, reloaded the shotguns, came back, the two of.

[Shane Simpson]

Them went back to the car.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes.

[Shane Simpson]

Reload the shotguns, came and shot their mother in the face. Lyle, how many times?

[Emily Simpson]

One time to the face one time.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay. It's pretty bad.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. Then after the murders, they left the house. They got rid of. This is interesting to me. They got rid of the shotguns and apparently they dumped them somewhere along Mulholland Drive. What is so incredible to me is that 35 years later, those shotguns have never been found.

[Shane Simpson]

Well, you've said that before and I don't know if I agree with that. I mean, I'm sure there's lots of weapons that get tossed and it's in LA and some people probably found it and no one knew what it was at the time when they found it and they repurposed it for some other crime and then that was the end of it.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, I mean, the only thing I can think is, I mean, they were found, no one knew the significance of.

[Shane Simpson]

Them, and they're sitting on some side of the road. I mean, anything could have happened. If you said that they were in the house and it was never found, then I'd question, but it's on the public road. I don't think that's as big of a deal as you make it out to be. Secondly, if they found the guns even today, if they found them today and they were preserved, what value would that they've confessed to the crime?

[Emily Simpson]

No, they did confess. And I know there's no value to finding the weapons. I'm sure that's why the police didn't bother searching, because it's not like they needed that to. I mean, they.

[Shane Simpson]

They didn't need a smoking gun. But then I go back, I go back and forth a lot. I go back to why did they throw away the guns? Why are they hiding the evidence?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, that was. This is part of the analysis. So let's keep going. After they shot their parents, they. They got rid of the bloody clothes. I read, I think it was in a book by Robert Rand. I read that they got rid of the bloody clothes, like behind a gas station somewhere. They changed their clothes into, I guess they had some tennis clothes in their car. They tried to buy movie tickets for an earlier movie time. They tried to see Batman at an earlier time because they wanted a timestamp on the movie to prove an alibi. They also tried to meet up with a friend at the Taste of LA and Then later tried to meet up with him at Cheesecake again, trying to establish some type of alibi. They returned back to them.

[Shane Simpson]

Wait, after the fact, they tried to establish alibis?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, after the fact, they were trying to establish. They were trying to buy a movie ticket for earlier in the night. You know, like the 910 showing.

[Shane Simpson]

Did they forget that part? They should have bought the ticket before.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, but they couldn't. I don't think you could buy a ticket that early for a 9pm showing. I don't know.

[Shane Simpson]

I don't know. Presumably it was the Tim Burton Batman with Jack Nicholson.

[Emily Simpson]

It was. It was the 1989 Batman that they were trying to buy tickets to. They returned back to the home. This is almost around midnight. And at a. They realize. They get back home and they realize that there's no police there. They thought for sure that someone would have heard the shots in this quiet, sleepy, you know, Beverly Hills neighborhood as.

[Shane Simpson]

You described it earlier.

[Emily Simpson]

It was. It is. And no one did. So they return home. They don't know what to do. There's no police there. They enter the home. Lyle calls 911 at 11:47. They are yelling. They're emotional. They're saying, someone shot our parents. The police show up two minutes later. They come out of the house. They drop to their knees. They're crying, pounding the ground. Our parents have been shot. They blame it on the Mafia because their dad was supposedly, you know, he was a big wig at rca. So they blame it on. Well, not at the time. He worked for RCA earlier, but then he worked for live entertainment after that. There's all the. All the evidence of the spending spree. You know, they bought Rolexes. They.

[Shane Simpson]

How soon after did they spend money?

[Emily Simpson]

Okay, well, they bought new suits and Rolexes. I believe either one day or two days before the funeral, the memorial service in Hollywood for their parents. They spent $16,000 on money clips and three new Rolexes. That was a day or two before the memorial. So that was within days of the murders.

[Shane Simpson]

Probably not related, but in Billionaire Boys Club, they did the same thing. They spiffed themselves up with Mercedes and suits and Rolexes and tried to really look like we got our A game on.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

But of course, they were also pursuing business ventures. But anyway, go ahead.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay, so then that's another. Also, I believe Lyle bought a restaurant in New Jersey. So they spent. They spent a lot of money. They actually got, I think, $700,000 from an insurance policy pretty immediately after the murders. And they also were authorized to use their dad's amex up to 250,000. They also bought, I think a Jeep, a Porsche.

[Shane Simpson]

But see, if they had all this money, like the 250 grand or whatever line of credit or whatever it was, then they had access to money. It's not like, you know, dad won't buy us this and they're stingy and they're going to give away the money and, you know, we have to go to school and we don't want to go to school, we just want our money. Now that leads me to think that they were living a wonderful life financially, so why would they? Where's the motive?

[Emily Simpson]

No, I agree. I think, I mean, those are just.

[Shane Simpson]

Questions I have anyway, not, not conclusions.

[Emily Simpson]

No, I don't disagree with you. I think the prosecution and the media pushed very hard that the motive was for money. But if you analyze their lifestyle, you're not talking about two kids that were withheld anything. No, I think they live, yeah, they had to pays. They had. They lived a very lavish lifestyle. I don't think their parents, you know, I think they gave them everything that they needed. So sometimes when I think about the spending spree, if we're talking about the abuse being true, then maybe that was their way of exhibiting their freedom. Yeah, not so much we just want all this money, but that was the way that they could outwardly exert that they finally have freedom.

[Shane Simpson]

So it wasn't now we have money, it's now we don't have our parents abusing us or controlling us and dictating, you know, our lives.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah. So it's like you let a dog out in the yard, out of the yard and all of a sudden now they're just roaming free.

[Emily Simpson]

Right?

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah.

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[Emily Simpson]

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[Emily Simpson]

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[Emily Simpson]

And for that T Mobile congratulates the.

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[Emily Simpson]

Okay, so let's talk about some things that I think were very fundamental for me when I was going through this case and reading things and watching things that really led me to believe that the abuse allegations were real. There was detailed testimony and a lot of emotion in the first trial when Eric and Lyle both testified. If you have the opportunity, I would say either watch their testimony, you can find YouTube videos of it, or read the trial transcripts. I don't think that you can act. To me, that's not acting. That's real hardcore emotion. There are also two family witnesses that corroborated the abuse. I believe there were two cousins that testified that they had seen abuse within the home. There was a letter that Eric had written to his cousin Andy eight months prior to the murder, kind of outlining that the abuse was happening. That's one of the pieces of evidence that was found later. There's the declaration of Roy Rossello from Menudo, who claims that Jose Menendez drugged him and raped him in his home. And then also in the most recent Netflix documentary. This was really an aha moment for me. They're interviewing Pam, who was the prosecutor in the first trial, and she openly admits that they could not find one character witness to testify on behalf of Jose to say he was a good man. Not one. Not a single character witness.

[Shane Simpson]

Would they testify the opposite?

[Emily Simpson]

I'm sure. But the prosecution's not going to.

[Shane Simpson]

No. No. But have you heard anything or. Because not not witnessing or testifying that he was a good man doesn't mean he was a bad man. Was anyone. Did anyone have bad thoughts and interactions with him?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, I'm sure they did. I think he was ruthless in business.

[Shane Simpson]

But do we know that?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. I mean, all the things I've read is he was ruthless. He had a bad reputation. He was difficult to deal with. Like, he was not liked. I mean, all those attributes also made him a very highly skilled executive. I mean, he got pretty far. And then lastly, it's just their behavior in prison, I think, is very commendable. The fact that they are. They were sentenced to life without parole, and yet they dedicated their lives to being educated, getting degrees, and they're both married.

[Shane Simpson]

Well, maybe they are crazy.

[Emily Simpson]

What are your thoughts on that?

[Shane Simpson]

I don't know. All I know is there's no Conjugal visits for people that are in prison for life without parole.

[Emily Simpson]

That is very true. I was going to get to that.

[Shane Simpson]

So they did marry for love.

[Emily Simpson]

They did marry for love because it wasn't for sex, that's for sure.

[Shane Simpson]

No, it was not.

[Emily Simpson]

Supposedly, though. So Eric is still married to the same woman. Her name is Tammy. They got married, I believe, back in the 90s. She, I think, is close to 60 at this point. He's like 55 or something.

[Shane Simpson]

That's fine. That's close in age.

[Emily Simpson]

My question is, if they do get released, do you think that marriage will last?

[Shane Simpson]

Well, I don't know. I don't know anything about the marriage.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay.

[Shane Simpson]

I mean, I can't. I can't comment on that.

[Emily Simpson]

I just.

[Shane Simpson]

I can say that they haven't lived together before.

[Emily Simpson]

I mean, they get along great.

[Shane Simpson]

They haven't even gone out to eat. I mean, I don't even know. Yeah, they're going to come across new traits of their personalities when they go out together. Yeah. So we're hopeful.

[Emily Simpson]

So Lyle has been married a couple times. He's currently married, but he's been married. Yeah, he's been married a couple times, I think. I believe he's married to his second wife right now. But she recently posted on Facebook, because she runs a Facebook page for him, that they are separated, but they remain best friends. And she still supports him. But he currently, as far as I know, I think the Daily Mail reported this. He has a girlfriend that's 21 and she's British. I believe she flew out to the prison and she has visited him and there were photos of them together.

[Shane Simpson]

Wow. This makes for a good episode of Life after Lockup.

[Emily Simpson]

It does right now. That's good reality tv. Shane and I used to watch that a lot.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah, the Menendez edition.

[Emily Simpson]

All right. So based upon what we've gone through, we did an analysis of why it was premeditated, the brutality of the murders. But then some of the things that convinced me that the abuse is true, that the abuse was corroborated by family members. There was the letter that was found from the cousin or that Eric had written to the cousin, the Menudo member that came forward and said Jose had raped him.

[Shane Simpson]

Well, let's be clear then. So all this new evidence leans towards they were abused, and that would be the motive. Which doesn't mean it wasn't a murder, and it doesn't justify murder, because my parents have annoyed me from time to time, and the world knows you've annoyed me from time to Time.

[Emily Simpson]

I do.

[Shane Simpson]

I do my best, but murder's never an option. Now, I haven't been abused to the extent that they claim they have been, so I certainly can't judge them. But what I'm getting at is, so if we find, we being the court, finds that they have been abused and that indeed is the motive and it was not money, then are they supposed to be out of jail? Should they still be in jail? Because, you know, murder is not.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, that's the argument, right? That's to be made. And I'm asking you, from your legal analysis, your opinion based upon all the things we talked about that make it premeditated, a brutal murder, and then some of the things that I put on the other side that have to do with the corroboration of abuse, what they endured, what they've gone through. Do you think that they should be resentenced to a lesser sentence which would allow them to be immediately eligible for parole?

[Shane Simpson]

Okay, I have real strong opinions on this.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay, you ready?

[Shane Simpson]

I don't know. I know enough to know that I don't know what it's like to be abused.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

And I don't know what the situation would be to have a father as he's painted out to be so far, to say, you know, I mean, and how I would handle it if I would run away or leave or punch my dad in the face or whatever it is, I mean, I don't know how I would handle it. So who am I to sit here and judge them for how they handled whatever abuse they encounter? I just don't know. And unfortunately, I'm not in a position where my opinion really matters to them. So I just can't go any further than that other than saying I don't know. And I have sympathy for people in that situation. And I know there's the battered woman syndrome, right? Which is. I don't know where it stands today legally, but it was recognized at one point that in the battered woman syndrome, that she's in no position to be able to get up and leave, that her only way of survival for her and possibly her children is to kill the man, and that's the only way out. And that was recognized before.

[Emily Simpson]

And I think that's a valid point that you make, because I've read and heard many people who have commentated on this case, who are psychologists, who are knowledgeable, who have said things such as, if these were the Menendez sisters, they would either have been. It would have been a lesser charge of manslaughter.

[Shane Simpson]

Because, yeah, it comes off less violent and less physically aggressive if it's a female, I think you mean it's perceived. If it's the Menendez sisters, as you suggested, I think me watching it as a young child and even now, it just naturally comes off as less aggressive. Wow. They really. That was their only way out, you know? And you don't see daughters killing parents. You don't envision daughters killing parents for money. Me.

[Emily Simpson]

So you're saying.

[Shane Simpson]

And that's all prejudging and none of it's accurate. We shouldn't be like that. But I'm just saying that's how it comes off to.

[Emily Simpson]

But you're. But I'm just saying if they were females, I think the abuse allegations that they made would have been believed.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, yes. I'm sorry. I'll start listening to you now.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

I'm just saying, if they were females when the abuse allegations came up, I think people would have probably wholeheartedly believed what they were saying. You know, the prosecutor, Pam, it's more.

[Shane Simpson]

Easy to accept that a man would be horrific towards young women.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

Versus the other way around.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. It was the understanding during that time period in the early 90s, there were two hung juries. In the first trial, all of the men voted for premeditated murder. Men could not wrap their heads around the fact that boys could be sexually abused by their fathers.

[Shane Simpson]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

And the prosecution, I saw it in a video, I believe it was on YouTube somewhere, where the prosecutor, Pam, says to the judge in a open court, it is our position that boys cannot be sexually abused.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah. That's couldn't be further from the fact.

[Emily Simpson]

That's why this case is so fundamental for today's society. And it's such an earmark of accepting the fact that boys can be abused by their parents.

[Shane Simpson]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

And that's where we're at. And hopefully we have a resentencing hearing coming up on January 30th. There's a new DA in LA. His name's Nathan Hochman. He's taking office soon. They had to delay the resentencing to January 30th because he said he wanted time to review everything. He wants to look at the totality of the circumstances. I believe he wants to go back and read all the trials transcripts, both trials.

[Shane Simpson]

I did see an interview with him where he said, I'm not going to. You know, just because they got popularity on Netflix and this and that, we're not going to just rush it.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

I think he was like, I'm going to treat this like any other case, which is I need to look at everything, not just walk. Watch a documentary.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. I saw a recent interview and I respected that on tmz. And he said that he wanted to make two things crystal clear. One, that there was no preferential treatment, that he was going to do a thorough review of all the facts in the Menendez case. And two, and I thought this was really interesting. He said he loves the media attention that this case is getting because it allows so many people to get involved in the criminal justice system. And he really urged everyone to not just watch a dramatization like monsters, but if you truly want to get involved and you truly want to understand it, read the trial transcripts, watch the trial, watch the court tv and not be.

[Shane Simpson]

So quick to judge.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly.

[Shane Simpson]

Know that there's. There's a lot more to a murder than just it's cold blooded.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. And with that, I think. Thank you for giving me your opinion.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah, sure.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. What we're going to do now, I actually have a very good friend named Alexandra who is an attorney and she represents the Menendez brothers. She works for Mark Garrett. And we're going to have her come on and we're going to ask her some questions about the case.

[Shane Simpson]

I'll be exciting.

[Alexandra]

Hi, guys.

[Emily Simpson]

Hi, Alex. Thanks for being here.

[Alexandra]

Of course.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay, first of all, give me a little background. Alex and I are friends. I actually adore her. But besides that, give us a little background on how long you've been involved with the case. How long have you worked with Garagos? Where are we at with that?

[Alexandra]

Oh, I've been with Mark probably. I mean, probably about eight years now. I've known him my whole life. When I was a public defender, he used to think I worked for him already. Really good family friend. And we've been partners probably for about eight years now. And we came on to the Menendez case. I think it's been a little bit more than a year now. Right when the habeas was filed, we came in because it was filed by Cliff Gardner, who's really behind the scenes, but he's a genius in appalling work. And so he asked us if we would come in and do the footwork. And so. So we came in right about then.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay. Now, we were talking about this earlier because we were trying to distinguish the habeas petition from the resentencing, which are two different routes for to grant them freedom at this point. Do you have a preference? Like, do you feel like the resentencing is a better route for your clients or the habeas?

[Alexandra]

Well, the resentencing is cleaner because if the resentencing is granted, if they. If the judge reduces it to a misdemeanor, they're immediately released. So that's the cleanest way for them to get out. If the habeas is granted, it gives them the option of a new trial. So there's a potential there that we have an entirely new Menendez Brothers jury trial, and that's a mess. So for me, as a representative of my clients, I would love to have the door just be opened and let them. Them be freed. So the resentencing is my preference.

[Emily Simpson]

Obviously, right now, the hearing coming up on January 30th, is that. Is the resentencing, Is that correct?

[Alexandra]

That's correct.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay, now, when we talking about resentencing, what are the factors that they take into consideration? Like, is the new evidence taken into consideration at that point as well, or is it more based upon kind of the family support, their behavior in prison, things like that?

[Alexandra]

So the resentencing is really just what have they done from the time that they've been in prison until now? That's really the only thing you're looking at and the only real consideration for the judges. Is there a potential that they're going to be released and reoffend by committing a super strike. And there's very specific charges that are super strikes. You know, murder, rape, things like that. So the question is, is there anything in their history while they've been in prison. Prison. That would make you think that they are potentially going to reoffend at a very, very serious level?

[Emily Simpson]

And I assume. No, there. There's nothing. Everything I've read is that they've been nothing but model prisoners. They've gotten degrees, they've helped other prisoners in abuse and hospice and things like that. Is that correct?

[Alexandra]

That's correct. Not only have they been model citizens, but there are no other inmates that I have ever heard of that are. That are like them. They had no potential for getting out. All of their appeals had been denied. And so they were resolved the fact that they were going to be in prison for the rest of their lives. And at that point, they started creating programs for other prisoners so that when they were released, they had a better chance of survival without recidivism. And they focused solely on people who needed to be comforted towards the end of their life who were in prison, everything for everyone else. Else. So, yeah, they, they're. I. I Cannot even imagine if somebody wanted to come in and actually focus on the resentencing issues. Anything that they would say about their time in prison that shows that they have not been rehabilitated.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. And also, let me ask you, I know you know them personally because you speak to them often. How are they doing emotionally or mentally with everything that's going on, with all the support they're getting from social media, Are they prepared if. Because there, there is the possibility that they remain in prison.

[Alexandra]

It's always an option. It's always on their minds. You know, there's been already through this process, just in the last year, there's been these peaks and these valleys. I think that from the inside, it's hard to know exactly what's happening on the outside. They don't get to watch tmz. They get reports that are, you know, third, fourth, fifth party sometimes. And so they've had a lot of ups and downs, but they're dealing with it better than I ever would. They deal with everything better than I ever would.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

That was a question I was gonna ask. Are they aware of all the support that they're getting outside the gates, outside the prison?

[Alexandra]

Yeah, they are. And it means a lot.

[Shane Simpson]

I mean, that's got to be somewhat humbling to finally have that support after, you know, three decades.

[Alexandra]

Yeah. And it's funny that you say that they are, they are very thoughtful, very humble people.

[Emily Simpson]

You know, Shane and I were talking before you came on about how when the trial first occurred back in the 90s, it was a completely different time period. And I was saying, I think a lot of that, I've actually, I text you at night, I'm like, I'm laying in bed and I think about these things. I was thinking about how that time period, the people within our peer group, we were Gen X. And that was very, you know, you just, you put your big girl pants on. There weren't participation trophies, there wasn't gluten free, There was nothing warm and fuzzy. It was basically like you just, you took care of yourself. And now we have this whole new generation that watch Court tv that saw the trial, that listened to them testify, that knows about what they've been through. And it's a different generation. And they, they accept them and they believe them and they, and, and they embrace them. And that has to be so amazing for them to, after all this time, to actually feel like what they've been through is being recognized.

[Shane Simpson]

Right.

[Alexandra]

I mean, they were the butt of jokes. They were Saturday Night Live skits About them. They were just made fun of constantly. And for there to be this complete 180is, I think, great just for them. I mean, people don't like it when I say it. A lot of times. I get flack for it. But, you know, they are victims. They are victims, and they were put in the position that they were in because they were abused. And so it's. I think it's healing for them to see that they are being recognized as victims, not just as monsters.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Alexandra]

Yeah. I think it's great. And one thing that hasn't really been spoken about a lot is that when they were in and when they were putting their story out there, when they got on the stand and they started talking about what was happening, people inside of the jails came to them and said, oh, my God, I would never have done that. I never would have told my story. But now that you have, can I talk to you about it? Because I've never had anybody to talk to. So they've started support groups inside for victims of sexual violence and abuse that did not exist. And the idea that there are not support groups for things like that inside of the prisons boggles my mind. But they are the ones who started the creation of those support groups for inmates.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, that's really amazing work that they've done also. How do you see them if they were let let go, if they become free? How do you see them giving back? Is that what they talk about? Have you had conversations with them about that? Like how they see themselves once they're free?

[Alexandra]

They want to keep continuing doing the work that they've been doing. Everything that they talk about, about their goals are to continue doing the work of reforming the prisons that they've been doing from the inside.

[Shane Simpson]

They might be even more motivated to do so if they were to be released under any terms. They would probably see the value in speaking up and recognizing prisoners as victims of abuse or whatever they've been through, that they might want to continue their work because they're seeing, like, the fruits, right? Yeah. That people can be released, people can be reformed, people can continue to help others. So they might be incent. You know, they might feel it's more valuable for them to do this, and they'll want to just continue it.

[Alexandra]

Yeah, that's.

[Shane Simpson]

It'd probably be hard for them to not want to continue it if they see the results that can come of it.

[Emily Simpson]

Thank you so much. I appreciate it, and I will talk to you soon.

[Alexandra]

Okay, bye, guys.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay, bye.

[Shane Simpson]

Bye. Okay. So if they do get Released under any terms, whether it be resentencing or new trial and they get out of jail. Then we wonder if they're going to stay married and this and that. But can they? There's so much popularity around this, so much Hollywood around this, so to speak. Can they benefit from any of this? Because obviously Netflix drama, everyone's benefiting from it.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. You know what? They actually can. So in New York, you're precluded from making money from a crime. However, in California, that's not true. So they actually can profit from their stories.

[Shane Simpson]

As far as, you know, there's no restrictions.

[Emily Simpson]

There's no restrictions. You know, they. As far as what I've read, there is no, there is nothing left of this $14 million inheritance. It is all gone. It went a lot of it. Paid for the defense, the first couple trials. Also, the house had a mortgage that had to be paid. There were taxes that had to be paid.

[Shane Simpson]

Everyone was probably putting their hand in the cookie jar.

[Emily Simpson]

There's no money left. However, you're talking about two men that are on the popularity scale of a Kardashian. And so if they do happen by chance to come out of prison, I am sure that there will be some bidding wars over who gets the first interview with them. And you're talking millions of dollars because.

[Shane Simpson]

The worry would be they come out of jail or prison and then they don't, like, have something to, you know, to grasp on, to financially support themselves. And yet everyone else has profited. But you're saying that they can, they can. Hopefully they do it properly and not be taken advantage of. But they can use their stories for games.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes. Interviews, social media, book deals.

[Shane Simpson]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. There, there is the potential for the.

[Shane Simpson]

Reality show, reality shows podcast.

[Emily Simpson]

There is the potential for them to make a lot of money. Yes.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

All right. Thanks guys for listening to our very first podcast on the Menendez brothers. And thanks so much for listening.

[Shane Simpson]

Thank you.

[Emily Simpson]

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