Legally Brunette: The Neonatal Nightmare - Lucy Letby

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Two Ts In A Pod – Legally Brunette: The Neonatal Nightmare – Lucy Letby

Date: February 24, 2026
Hosts: Emily Simpson and Shane (guest co-host for Legally Brunette segment)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Emily Simpson guides listeners through the notorious and deeply controversial case of Lucy Letby, the British neonatal nurse convicted of murdering seven infants and attempting to kill six more. Sparked by the recent Netflix documentary and ongoing public intrigue, Emily and Shane take a critical look at the evidence, trial proceedings, expert testimony, and persistent doubts that surround the conviction. The hosts continually question whether Letby received a fair trial and whether justice has truly been served.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introducing the Case (02:37–04:23)

• Emily shares that listener interest and the Netflix documentary led her to research Lucy Letby’s case.
• Letby: neonatal nurse at Countess of Chester Hospital, convicted in 2023 of seven murders and six attempted murders (2015–2016).
• Quote:
  • “I still don’t know what I think about Lucy Letby—whether I think she’s guilty or not. But we are going to get into it.” — Emily Simpson (02:52)

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British Legal and Institutional Formality (03:17–04:23)

• The hosts find the British names for hospitals and legal terms like "whole life order" (no possibility of parole) fascinating and dignified.
• Discussion of Letby's current status: convicted, serving multiple "whole life orders," and pursuing last-resort appeals.

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Lucy Letby’s Early Life and Hospital Dynamics (04:58–07:39)

• Letby was described as quiet, reserved, and always intending to be a pediatric nurse.
• A close friend (whose identity was AI-disguised in the documentary) claimed the hospital was a “clique” where Lucy was bullied for being quirky and shy.
• The hosts discuss the use of AI to anonymize interviewees in true crime documentaries.
• Quote:
  • “It’s so bizarre…they enhance it with AI so they make her look like a totally different person.” — Emily Simpson (06:59)

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The Focus on 2015–2016: Rising Infant Deaths & Media Frenzy (07:40–11:18)

• Before 2015, the hospital’s neonatal mortality rates were standard.
• From 2015–2016, rates spiked while Letby was frequently on duty.
• Debate centers on whether Letby deliberately caused the deaths/collapses or if hospital failures were to blame.
• Media coverage drew parallels to the Amanda Knox case—Letby’s face and labels (‘baby killer’, ‘serial killer’) were everywhere before verdict.
• Quote:
  • “I don’t even know if you can get a fair trial…when the media has convicted her before.” — Emily Simpson (09:51)

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Internal Investigations and Letby’s Removal (11:44–14:13)

• Growing internal suspicions: colleagues claimed Letby acted oddly, discouraged assistance, and wrote a sympathy card to bereaved parents.
• She’s removed from clinical duties in July 2016 and placed in administration, foreshadowing that she was under investigation.
• Letby remained anxious and confused, sending emails seeking clarity from management.
• Arrests: Letby faced three separate arrests between 2018–2022, with earlier ones yielding insufficient evidence, and finally the third leading to charges.

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Trial Details and Testimonies (19:39–28:46)

• Lucy’s trial started October 2022 at Manchester Crown Court; she pled not guilty to 22 charges.
• Cases named by letters (e.g., Child O, P, H, etc.). Not all deaths had the same circumstances or causes.
• Prosecution: presented chart showing Letby was on duty for every unexplained collapse/death.
• Defense: argued she worked more shifts, had more training than peers—prosecution counters that she was only at entry-level qualification.
• Statistical evidence questioned: data selection bias?
• Alleged methods: overfeeding, air embolism (injecting air), insulin injections—disputed by medical experts.
• Quote:
  • “There’s so many arguments on both sides…it’s enough doubt that she shouldn’t be convicted.” — Shane (22:22)

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Expertise & Medical Evidence Conflict (24:36–27:18)

• Primary prosecution expert, Dr. Dowie Evans, relied on outdated research and was challenged as unreliable.
• Defense enlisted Dr. Shu Lee (author of cited research) and 14 others, all of whom concluded none of the infants died from air embolism, but their input came post-conviction.

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Physical Evidence — The Journals (27:18–28:24)

• Police found notes in Letby’s home, including: “I did this. I am evil.”
• The hosts debate whether such writing is incriminating or just the product of extreme distress and media pressure.
• Quote:
  • “I am evil doesn’t mean I did everything that you’re accusing me of.” — Shane (28:07)

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The Conviction and Sentencing (28:48–33:39)

• May 2023: Letby testifies, denies harming anyone, suggests environmental issues (plumbing, hospital resources) could explain deaths.
• August 18, 2023: Found guilty after a 10-month trial—seven murders, six attempted murders.
• July 2024: Additional count of attempted murder after retrial; now facing 15 whole life sentences.
• Appeals repeatedly denied; courts cite that even refuting some methods (air embolism) doesn’t clear her of all convictions.
• Quote:
  • “There isn’t a smoking gun… I need video camera footage, I need something to show me that this woman is killing these babies on purpose.” — Emily Simpson (41:02)

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Patterns, Hospital Practices, and Unanswered Questions (33:16–34:46)

• Prosecution and critics point to the sharp decline in infant deaths after Letby’s removal.
• However, hosts urge caution: hospital changed many factors, including stopping intake of premature babies and possibly upgrading staff/equipment.

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Legacy, Public Doubt, and Ongoing Investigations (39:46–44:39)

• The hosts reflect on the media narrative: is Letby a serial killer or hospital scapegoat for systemic failures?
• The case continues to divide public opinion, with high-profile media (Netflix, Amanda Knox podcast) stoking debate.
• Quote:
  • “I don’t think we should give a 33-year-old woman a life sentence…when there isn’t a smoking gun.” — Emily Simpson (41:00)
• Current status: Letby’s case is before the Criminal Cases Review Commission, with hopes for reconsideration if new expert analysis is compelling.

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Closing Thoughts (44:39–44:59)

• Both hosts express deep reservations about the sufficiency of evidence for such a harsh sentence.
• Neither is convinced of Letby’s innocence, but both see reasonable doubt and hope for further review.
• Emily invites listeners to weigh in, especially anyone with firsthand clinical or legal insights.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Media Prejudice:
  “I don’t even know if you can get a fair trial…when the media has convicted her before.” — Emily Simpson (09:51)

• On Evidence:
  “There isn’t a smoking gun... I need video camera footage, I need something to show me that this woman is killing these babies on purpose.” — Emily Simpson (41:02)

• On Journaling and Mental Health:
  “I am evil doesn’t mean I did everything that you’re accusing me of.” — Shane (28:07)

• On Legal Burden:
  “If you’re uncertain, then that’s the answer...there’s enough doubt and she shouldn’t be convicted.” — Shane (22:43)

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Key Timestamps for Reference

• 02:37 – Case introduction and hosts’ initial uncertainty
• 04:23 – Description of “whole life order” and Letby’s conviction status
• 06:56 – Discussion of AI-anonymized documentary interviews
• 09:41 – Media comparisons to Amanda Knox case
• 11:44 – Internal hospital concerns; Letby removed from clinical work
• 14:13 – Arrest timeline and police conduct
• 19:39 – Opening of trial, lettered child designations, main prosecution cases
• 24:36 – Air embolism debate, expert witness reliability
• 27:18 – Letby’s journals: incrimination or emotional distress?
• 28:48 – Testimony and verdict
• 33:16 – Discussion of mortality rate statistics post-Letby
• 39:46 – Public doubts, Netflix documentary, and legacy
• 41:00 – Emily’s conclusion: need for concrete evidence
• 44:19 – Current legal status and call for listener engagement

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Final Takeaway

This episode delivers a nuanced, skeptical deep-dive into the case against Lucy Letby, raising hard questions about justice, media narratives, and the reliability of the evidence. The hosts refuse to answer definitively but instead model critical thinking and compassion, inviting listeners, especially from medical and legal communities, to contribute perspectives—underscoring the complexities behind crime headlines.

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Transcript

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I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season two podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumprite became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything.

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I was a monster.

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Listen to Burden of guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Emily Simpson]

Hi, guys. Welcome to an all new episode of Legally Brunette. I will be your host today, Emily Simpson with Shane. With Shane. A lot of you reached out to me and you said, have you seen the new documentary on Netflix? It's about Lucy Letby. She's a nurse and I had seen it pop up. And so after several of you were dming and asking about it, I decided to watch it and kind of take a deep dive into it. I will tell you, I still don't know what I think about Lucy Leppy, whether I think that she's guilty or not. But we are going to get into it. We're going to discuss it. So Lucy Lepy was a neonatal nurse at Countess of Chester Hospital.

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I also.

[Emily Simpson]

Can I just comment on how much I love the names of English hospitals? It sounds so proper.

[Bradley Hall]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Like here the hospital is called Hogue. Right. But this is called the Countess of Chester Hospital.

[Bradley Hall]

And isn't there courts? The crown?

[Emily Simpson]

Yes. It's all very dignified. It's very, very polished and dignified and proper. She was convicted of murdering seven infants and attempting to kill six others between the years 2015 and 2016. Prosecutors argued that a sharp rise in unexplained baby deaths and medical collapses in the unit occurred while she was on duty, alleging that she deliberately harmed infants after a lengthy trial that began in 2022. I believe her trial was six months.

[Weight Watchers Announcer]

Maybe.

[Emily Simpson]

Maybe it was nine. It was long.

[Sixth Bureau Narrator]

She.

[Bradley Hall]

Was that a jury?

[Emily Simpson]

Yes. She was found guilty in 2023 and sentenced to a whole life order. See, that's another way that they say it. They say whole life order, basically, like your whole life.

[Bradley Hall]

I'm glad, I'm glad this sits well with you.

[Emily Simpson]

I like it.

[Bradley Hall]

I like that.

[Emily Simpson]

I like the language. A whole life order, which is the most severe punishment under British law. With no possibility of parole. The case has drawn significant public and media attention and has remained the subject of appeals and ongoing inquiries. I do know that she currently is in prison. We do know that she was convicted in 2023. Her defense has now working towards getting her another appeal. I think she's exhausted a couple appeals with the Court of Appeals. But then there's a different route that you can take where you can submit

[Bradley Hall]

before, which seems like a tough call because there's seven. Well, there's 13 convictions.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Bradley Hall]

So I don't know. I. I mean, you can overturn one or find one to be, you know, doubtful. But then there's others because she has a whole life sentence for each of

[Emily Simpson]

Those counts, I believe there's like 15 whole life sentences.

[Bradley Hall]

So unless you can find something that makes the whole, like throughout the whole trial.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Bradley Hall]

You'd have to, like, find a way to negate the conviction of 15 different counts.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, that's where her defense is at now because they've commissioned a whole, you know, task force basically of professionals and experts that have written these reports. So we'll get to that. But the case is now being reviewed by the ccrc, so that's her kind of last hope. So. All right, let's talk about Lucy's early life. So Lucy Letby was born an only child to John and Susan Letby and Hereford, England in January of 1990. Those who knew her describe her as a quiet and reserved and said it was obvious from early on that she would pursue a career as a pediatric nurse. In 2011, Lucy let me began working in the neonatal unit at Countess of Chester Hospital in Cheshire, England. Lucy's close friend that attended nursing school with her claimed that this hospital was very clicky and that the other nurses and staff were mean to Lucy because she was quirky and shy. You know, during the documentary she talks about this friend also. You know what's interesting that they can do now? Do you know when you watch documentaries previously, and they wanted to preserve someone's identity, so they made them anonymous. They would just make them like a black, shadowy figure and then they would change their voice and then they would make it like that grovelly kind of voice. They don't do that. I'm watching this documentary. They. They enhance it with AI so they make her look like a totally different person.

[Bradley Hall]

I guess they try to put a real face on there, but.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, but not her real face because she wants anonymity.

[Bradley Hall]

What if AI accidentally looked like you? Well, people think that's Emily.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. I don't know. But it's so bizarre because up in the corner it'll say something about like, enhanced with AI or something to preserve anonymity.

[Bradley Hall]

Well, what they do with the voice,

[Emily Simpson]

they digitally enhance it to make it sound like someone different. And I guess they took her look. She's like a. She's a friend of Lucy Levy.

[Bradley Hall]

That's what I'm saying. What if it looks like someone and then they just accuse?

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know how you get AI to make it look like no one else in the world.

[Bradley Hall]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

So that you're not defending present or future someone else at some point. It's very interesting.

[Bradley Hall]

For defamation.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. At the Countess of Chester Hospital, the infant Mortality rates in the unit were considered statistically in line with comparable hospitals. But this was before 2015. So really the focus of this trial and the focus of Lucy Letby and the issue of whether or not she is overtly doing things to cause a significant number of babies to collapse or die. Collapse, meaning to not.

[Bradley Hall]

Is that another English term?

[Emily Simpson]

They collapse. They use the word collapse, but that means die is. It's really. They focus on the years 2015, 2016.

[Bradley Hall]

Does collapse mean more of a kind of a natural medical death as opposed to like a murder, like he collapsed her?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, I think that's what the term that the hospital uses is supposed to be like a nice way of saying that the baby didn't survive. So the. The baby's collapsed. Prosecutors later argued that seven of the infants, which was five boys and two girls, were murdered during this period. So the issue, the main issue of this whole case is whether Lucy Letby was overtly doing things when she had these babies under her care to induce them to die, or whether it is just circumstantial as to the hospital. The. The babies just weren't. Well, they would have collapsed anyway. And so that's the main issue. And it's very, very divided. And you know what else this case reminded me of when I was watching it and it showed a lot of the headlines that had to do with Lucy Letby before she went to trial. It reminded me very much of Amanda Knox, where she had so much public scrutiny.

[Bradley Hall]

She was already guilty.

[Emily Simpson]

She was already guilty because remember how they would flash all on the inquiry? Yeah.

[Bradley Hall]

And there's no other suspect. Right. She was the only one they looked into, as far as we know.

[Emily Simpson]

So Amanda Knox was just her face and her image was splashed all over like media.

[Bradley Hall]

Here's a crazy lady that murdered her roommate, and now it's is here. Here's a crazy nurse that killed all these babies.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. So to me, it was just. It looked. It reminded me very much of Amanda Knox, how it was a public scrutiny trial, how it was just splashing her face all over the front of the.

[Bradley Hall]

I've always had a problem with that because it's like, oh, innocent before guilty, but then show the suspect, not the criminal, the suspect. So then you show him or her all over the place. And then let's say they're found not guilty. Well, the news is done and they're going to move on to the next person. And then that person's face was everywhere. Well, so it is. It is bothersome, I think.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. And. And the Way they show it is like, you know, baby killer and, you know, serial killer. Most prolific baby serial killer of all of history. And then her face.

[Bradley Hall]

That was after conviction. That would make a little bit more sense.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, I think it was before and after. I think already when she had been arrested and she was being put on trial for these alleged, you know, collapses of all these children, the media is just splashing her face everywhere with like, serial killer, baby killer.

[Bradley Hall]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

So it just reminded me very much of Amanda Knox how I don't even know if you can get a fair trial with a jury pool when obviously the media has convicted her before. There's even. And, you know, the average person, like we talk about, the average person does not read the article and try to discern thing and look at facts and really try to make a decision. They. They see the COVID of a magazine, they see her face and baby killer. That's it. That's all you need.

[Bradley Hall]

So it's good enough for me.

[Emily Simpson]

Right, because you're one of those people.

[Bradley Hall]

Yeah. Average.

[Emily Simpson]

It's like when all those. I will tell you guys out there listening, if you see an article on Facebook that has to do with a housewife, chances of it being true are slim to none.

[Bradley Hall]

I don't even click on anything, even if it's world news anymore. It's like, well, that sounds pretty bad. If it's true, then I'll hear about it from multiple sources.

[Emily Simpson]

It's just crazy to me how all these articles come up now on Facebook. There was one I saw that said that you beat me, and then it showed a photo of me when I had a facelift because I had black eyes. So anyway, stay away from Facebook.

[Bradley Hall]

I'd be dead now.

[Emily Simpson]

That is very true.

[Bradley Hall]

Have a new podcast partner.

[Emily Simpson]

Internal concerns were starting to be raised. This is in the 2015-2016 time frame. A senior doctor testified that he raised concerns to the hospital leadership team about let be during 2015 and 2016. In one account, he said that he observed her standing by an infant whose oxygen levels were dropping and she was not intervening. Other staff testified about unusual behavior that had to do with Lucy. Allegations that she discouraged co workers from assisting during emergencies and claims that she spent time with babies she was not assigned to. Also testimony that she wrote a sympathy card to parents of a baby she was accused of harming. I don't know. You can take those things and turn them around into something odd, or you can turn them around and look at it from a different perspective and think that if she wrote a sympathy card to someone. Maybe it was because she was sympathetic that somebody lost a baby. And I don't know.

[Bradley Hall]

Well, that's what that. Then that's what it should say. Because I always, like, tell kids, like, I'm like, okay, say you're sorry. And it's like, I didn't mean to do it. I know. But you say, I'm sorry you got hurt. I'm sorry, it was an accident. So I don't know if she should have. So it can't go both ways. An apology doesn't always mean I did it. It might just mean I'm sorry for the circumstances.

[Emily Simpson]

Right, so we get to July of 2016. Lucy was removed from the neonatal unit and transferred to administrative roles within the hospital's risk and Patient Safety office. Okay. That has to put you on notice immediately that something's coming down the pipeline. When you're a nurse and that's your specialty is dealing with neonatal and dealing with babies, and they remove you from that and they're like, that's like when you're a police officer and you know,

[Bradley Hall]

oh, yeah, it's like, give me your gun and badge.

[Jo Winterstein]

Right?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, hand over your badge.

[Bradley Hall]

Don't worry, everything's fine

[Emily Simpson]

now. You're just going to answer the phone and do some administrative tasks. So obviously she's put on notice that something's coming down the pipeline and that

[Bradley Hall]

they're looking at her. I don't. I don't think that. I never thought that that was a secret. I thought, like, when she was put on clinical, whatever probation or whatever it's called, I think she, she was aware of the investigation.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, she was also sending emails asking for more information because she said she had such high anxiety about what was going on.

[Bradley Hall]

She's like, to prepare my defense, please let me know what's going on.

[Emily Simpson]

Tell me what's going on. Lucy remained employed by the Countess of Chester Hospital NHS Foundation Trust in this capacity until her first arrest in July of 2018, at which point she was then suspended.

[Bradley Hall]

Her first arrest.

[Emily Simpson]

The first time she was arrested, I guess they weren't unable to keep her because they didn't have enough evidence. The second time she posted bail, they

[Bradley Hall]

didn't learn their lesson.

[Emily Simpson]

No. Then the third time, I believe they felt like they had enough evidence to support the allegation that she was, you know, overtly doing something. So her trial begins in October of 2022. So now we are, and here we are in October of 2022, actually. They show her being arrested. I believe it's the third time in the documentary when they show her being arrested. And they're so polite when they come in. They come in and they're like, hello, good day.

[Bradley Hall]

They bring crumpets and tea.

[Emily Simpson]

They're just like, hello, we're here. Is Lucy here? And then the mom, the poor mom,

[Bradley Hall]

they're helping her pack and you know,

[Emily Simpson]

they have the police, you know, you're

[Bradley Hall]

pointing to her chest, you know, the police, the cam. Body cam.

[Emily Simpson]

Body cam, yes. So they're, you know, we get to see it all. And they arrive and she's like up in her bedroom, the mom, her mom is wailing in the background. Just.

[Bradley Hall]

This is a third arrest, right?

[Emily Simpson]

I believe this is the third arrest at show in the Dark.

[Bradley Hall]

At some point I would be a little confident, like, yeah, okay, you tried this before. You don't have any evidence.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, she's actually very calm for someone that's been arrested three times. I mean, she's just kind of sitting in her bedroom under the covers and they just, they like knock on her bedroom door and they're like, hello, Lucy. You know, do you want to get dressed? Let's go. We're going to be on our way.

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[Emily Simpson]

help with my side effects. It's all in one place.

[Weight Watchers Announcer]

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[Emily Simpson]

October of 2022, Lucy's trial began at the Manchester Crown Court. She pleaded not guilty to 22 charges. These charges included seven murders and multiple attempted murders. There were notable cases that were referenced by the prosecution in court. You know, they named. They named all the children. They were all kind of named by letters. So there were two triplets, mean for

[Bradley Hall]

purposes of the prosecution.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Sixth Bureau Narrator]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

Child O and child P that had died. And a third triplet, child H, had allegedly survived two attempts and recovered after being transferred. Child G survived three alleged attacks, but later suffered severe and permanent brain injury. Child B experienced rapid deterioration after her twin brother had already died. And child E's mother testified that she found her baby bleeding and distressed. Concerns were allegedly dismissed at the time.

[Bradley Hall]

So they weren't consistent causes of death.

[Emily Simpson]

No. And prosecutors stated that at least 17 collapses were not medically explainable. So really, I had to. I read several articles about this because

[Bradley Hall]

that's like, you know what SID is?

[Emily Simpson]

Sids? Yeah. Sudden Infant Death Syndrome.

[Bradley Hall]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

So I was trying to break down.

[Bradley Hall]

Which is unexplainable, inexplainable.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. There's actually. You've met Alan before with the Innocence Center. He was convicted many, many years ago and spent many years in jail for acids. Type of. Of situation. And it ended up being proven later, after the fact, that he had nothing to do.

[Bradley Hall]

Yeah. And I think he's not the only one. I think that's.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Bradley Hall]

They've come to learn that sometimes that just. Yeah. And then they find consistencies in these SIDS cases, like certain patterns of kind of how they are in their nursery in their home, which is not negligence. It's just. There's a consistency there.

[Emily Simpson]

Colleagues testified that sudden infant deteriorations were happening while Lucy was on duty. The prosecution presented a chart that showed Lucy Lepp at the hospital during every infant fatality. So her new defense team claims that she was present not only because she worked more, but also because she was more qualified than the other nurses, or she had, like, specified education and she was more experienced. But then, you know, the prosecution comes back and says that though she had taken extra courses, she was still labeled what's called a band 5 nurse, which in the UK is the entry level grade for newly qualified registered nurses. And that there were other nurses in the neonatal ward that were band six and band seven, meaning that they were more qualified than Lucy. So again, lots of arguments on both sides.

[Bradley Hall]

Yeah. Which again, there's going back to the beginning when you said you're uncertain. And then you asked my prediction on what your judgment would be, if I can make sense of that. But then it's like if you're uncertain, then that's the answer. You're uncertain and there's enough doubt and she shouldn't be convicted.

[Emily Simpson]

I know, but sometimes I feel like once we go through this.

[Bradley Hall]

No, I know, I know. I was just saying, like, I was just pointing out that there's a significant amount of doubt that you have.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. However, some statisticians find the prosecution's chart to be very skewed, as it seemed to pick and choose which staff was added. There were other doctors and staff that were not included in the chart. Why were they not included? That's the question. Expert witnesses stated some overfeeding incidents could not have been accidental. You know, the prosecution was alleging that she was overfeeding babies, which I guess would like overfeeding them with milk, but

[Bradley Hall]

not for purposes of killing. Right. Just like she was improperly.

[Emily Simpson]

No, I think with purposes of harming them. If you overfeed someone with milk, think about, you know, the people that have died because they drink too much water. You remember there was a case where someone. Didn't they run or something.

[Bradley Hall]

There's a number of cases.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, yeah. So I'm just saying if you pump a baby full, if you're feeding, if you're overfeeding a baby, milk that's tiny and just born and might be having some issues that could lead to death. So that was a plus.

[Bradley Hall]

That should be a minimal skill that a nurse is aware of. Right. How much they should be fed.

[Emily Simpson]

Prosecutors argued that air embolism was also used in multiple cases. This was with Baby O, I actually.

[Bradley Hall]

That's injecting air into their bloodstream or something.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. So they really. If you look really at Baby O, the prosecution accuses her of injecting air into the blood of Baby O, which that type of blockage is called an air embolism. So that's what the prosecution was saying then, you know, and I guess a trait of air embolism is that the baby's skin becomes discolored. And I think there were several babies that had skin discoloration. So that's what they were saying, that someone had to overtly inject air.

[Bradley Hall]

But I'm gonna guess the skin discoloration doesn't. Isn't conclusive that that was the cause of death. It's just. That's a symptom. But it's probably also a symptom that arises from other causes of death.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. So Dr. Dowie Evans, who is the main expert witness used by the prosecution, has been accused of being an unreliable expert witness. Dr. Evans claimed that many of these newborns Died by air embolism. Citing. So he used. So this doctor that was an expert for the prosecution used a research paper written by Dr. Shu Lee back in 1989. So that's where he claims that it was the embolism. It was air embolism. The air was directly, I guess, inserted into a vein or something, and then the babies.

[Bradley Hall]

I don't know how it works, but I've always heard that if you have a syringe that's empty and it's just air, and you pump it into someone, it could result in death.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. Here's my other question, though, and this is. I don't really understand. I understand that this hospital was small and understaffed. I don't think it was medically up to date. It probably needed new equipment and things like that. But why did they not have cameras?

[Bradley Hall]

Do hospital. Where do you want the camera?

[Emily Simpson]

In the. In the neonatal unit. You've got babies. There's always issues with babies being kidnapped. Why are there not security cameras and all of. In this? And it's a very small unit.

[Bradley Hall]

Do we know that there weren't cameras, or are you just assuming there wasn't?

[Emily Simpson]

I'm assuming there's no cameras because what would cameras show?

[Bradley Hall]

That she fed the baby too many ounces.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. Well, they also. They also alleged that she injected them with insulin. So I'm saying if she's doing these things like injecting a baby with insulin or overfeeding or injecting air into their veins for. Then wouldn't there be something on a camera?

[Bradley Hall]

I don't know.

[Emily Simpson]

Or it would deter her from doing that. I mean, I just don't understand why there's no security cameras in this hospital where it's a neonatal unit where you have babies.

[Bradley Hall]

Well, that's on the assumption that all hospitals have cameras and this one doesn't. We don't know. What if that's not a problem? What if it's a privacy? I don't know.

[Emily Simpson]

Dr. Dowie Evans claimed many of these newborns died by air embolism, citing Dr. Shuley's research on the subject. However, Dr. Shu Lee, the man that wrote this, this paper, was then contacted by the defense, and then he went through each case by himself. Each case of the babies dying, along with 14 other neonatal experts. And they determined that none of the infants died from air embolism. However, this is after the fact. I believe this was after she was convicted. So this is her defense. Preparing to challenge the challenge. Right. Also, handwritten notes found by Lucy Letby in her home were presented. Some contain self critical statements and references to harming babies. Like I did this. I am evil. You know, I don't know how I feel.

[Bradley Hall]

Wait, what did you just say? Where was that said?

[Emily Simpson]

So when they searched her home. Yeah.

[Bradley Hall]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

The notes, she, she liked to journal. Yeah. Okay, so she wrote a lot and I guess they found a lot of journals and scribbles and she wrote, I did this. I am evil.

[Bradley Hall]

Yeah, that's, that's, that's usually self incriminating. Probably don't want to be writing that stuff.

[Emily Simpson]

Others, but she also wrote things like, you know, she also questioned why she was being accused. Like writing I am innocent. Why are they doing this to me? I don't know how, how profound that is. If someone's just journaling a stream of consciousness or, or whatever and they're writing,

[Bradley Hall]

it's not, it's not like it's a detailed account of what took place.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Bradley Hall]

And I am evil doesn't mean I did everything that you're accusing me of.

[Emily Simpson]

But she said I am evil. I did this. But then I don't know what this is, what this is. Maybe it's something else. Maybe she's just saying it because of all the news headlines and, or I

[Bradley Hall]

did this means like I was negligent in the way I cared for them and now I've caused all this. I mean, we don't know what it means.

[Emily Simpson]

So. Jurors were shown the diary entries with initials of infants that have passed under her care. Text messages were also presented in which she referenced emotional distress at work. You know, I don't know if text messages where she's, you know, distressed at work show culpability. I feel like all of us have text messages where we're distressed at work, so.

[Bradley Hall]

Or the marriage, or that.

[Emily Simpson]

In May of 2023, she testified in her own defense stating she intended no harm. She suggested environmental issues, including plumbing problems, could have contributed to infections or complications. In June of 2023, prosecutors delivered closing arguments alleging deliberate and repeated harm. So then In August of 2023, this is August 18th of 2023, Lucy Lepy was found guilty. Following a 10 month trial, she was convicted in the murders of seven infants and the attempted murders of six others.

[Bradley Hall]

Obviously the children that died collapsed, right? Clearly, like there's evidence that there's a death. But the attempted murders, you just said there's no cameras and things like that. Like how did they attribute attempted, like where's the records to show that there was an attempted Murder on these six,

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know other than they have records of the baby maybe being on collapsing, but collapsing, but not, I guess to me, maybe collapsing isn't dying. Maybe it's just like decline, like some

[Bradley Hall]

illness or some urgency that was addressed.

[Emily Simpson]

And now they're saying resuscitated. I think because those babies were able to be resuscitated. And then, but they're accusing, how, why

[Bradley Hall]

okay, if they were resuscitated, why do they need to be like, what ha. What are the details of what happened to get to that point? And then now they're going to say, oh, this baby that almost died was because of you. I don't know what's the evidence?

[Emily Simpson]

Because I would assume that those attempted murders had the same type of facts surrounding them.

[Bradley Hall]

Like she was on the clock, that she was there.

[Emily Simpson]

That's not, you know, I, I don't know that they, the skin was discolored. So they're going to attribute it to, you know, an air embolism.

[Bradley Hall]

She's going to get a whole life sentence for that.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, she would have gotten a whole life sentence for the six that they deemed that she actually did murder.

[Bradley Hall]

I know, but then now attempted murder is the same. I'm just saying this evidence doesn't look very strong to get 15 life sentences.

[Emily Simpson]

The judge stated that the severity of the offenses warranted lifelong imprisonment. Then In July of 2024, this is following a four week retrial, she was convicted on an additional count of attempted murder in relation to another victim. This was child K. After the jury was previously hung on that specific incident, this resulted in an additional life sentence. So she's serving total, she's serving a total of 15 whole life sentences. Appeals and the aftermath. So now we get to 2023-2026. She has unsuccessfully appealed her convictions twice. They even, I think there was even the appeals court said even if, because she, because I believe her defense attorney has all that new, has that panel of experts now that have all come forward. Dr. Hsu is one of them that wrote the original paper on air embolism and infants. And they've all gone through each case case by case and then they all deem kind of unanimously that, that these weren't murders. And so I think that evidence is now, I guess was used somewhat and then the appeals. But then I believe the appeals court said even if it, even if that were true, there were other instances that had to do with insulin and other things. So too much I know because it's very mysterious.

[Bradley Hall]

Right? You Have a baby that dies.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, you have multiple. You have lots of babies.

[Bradley Hall]

And it's not like there was a pattern.

[Emily Simpson]

There was also another baby that collapsed, died, whatever you want to say that they deemed had some type of liver issue, but it a failure. But they said the liver failure was because of like post or because of like blunt force trauma or something, like she had abused the baby or something. So then that's a good point that you made because I feel like if someone were a serial killer, we've learned that the, the definition of a serial killer is because someone has a pattern of behavior. They do the same things.

[Bradley Hall]

Yeah. She wants them dead. Why would she, like, why would she use like a variety of methods, right?

[Emily Simpson]

Like an air embolism here, too much insulin here, feed too. A liver issue here. It's. It is kind of all over the board, not just like a systematic. Same type of thing every single time.

[Bradley Hall]

And, and the babies are all different too, right? There was premature ones and there was, you know, normal weighted ones that had

[Emily Simpson]

issues like as soon as they were born, you know, that were already vulnerable at that point.

[Bradley Hall]

You know, I, I do know that from looking over this a little bit that another thing, and it's circumstantial, but another thing is the amount of babies dying in such a short period of time that the hospital. That's like not normal, like results, not normal statistics. And then when she was put as a clinical nurse or whatever her, she was demoted or taken off of basically the. Oh, you mean when they direct care, it dropped significantly. And I read that up to today, or at least recently, they've had 2,500 like babies come through the hospital and they've had one death.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, you know, but also did have they cleaned up the hospital and have they put new.

[Bradley Hall]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Do they have new staff? Do, do they have.

[Bradley Hall]

You know, I know they also the hospital stopped taking in preemies.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, see, that's why, that's why when you have a conclusion like a very conclusive statistic, where it's like, okay, well, ever since Lucy let me left right now, there's been no deaths. But then you don't explain further. Well, maybe there's no deaths because the, the, the staff is different, Right. Maybe they've upgraded their medical equipment.

[Bradley Hall]

Right. Maybe they stopped taking in babies.

[Emily Simpson]

Maybe they stopped taking. Right. Maybe it's not there anymore. Right? So, you know, those are things that

[Bradley Hall]

maybe someone else is not there also. Like they are. They fired some doctor.

[Sixth Bureau Narrator]

Right.

[Bradley Hall]

Who knows?

[Mind Games Host]

What if mind control is real, if

[Emily Simpson]

you could control the behavior of anybody around you. What kind of life would you have?

[Mind Games Host]

Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?

[Bradley Hall]

When you look at your car, you're

[Ben Higgins]

going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings.

[Mind Games Host]

Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?

[Bradley Hall]

I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.

[Mind Games Host]

Can you get someone to join your cult?

[Jo Winterstein]

NLP was used on me to access my subconscious.

[Mind Games Host]

Nlp, AKA Neuro Linguistic Programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain.

[Bradley Hall]

It's about engineering consciousness.

[Mind Games Host]

Mind Games is the story of nlp, its crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a New Age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all, nlp, might actually work.

[Emily Simpson]

This is wild.

[Mind Games Host]

Listen to mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Higgins]

What do you do when the headlines don't explain what's happening inside of you? I'm Ben Higgins, and if youf Can Hear Me is where culture meets the soul. A place for real conversation. Each episode, I sit down with people from all walks of life. Celebrities, thinkers and everyday folks. And we go deeper than the polished story. We talk about what drives us, what shapes us, and what gives us hope. We get honest about the big stuff. Identity when you don't recognize yourself anymore. Loss that changes you. Purpose when success isn't enough. Peace when your mind won't slow down. Faith when it's complicated. Some guests have answers. Most are still figuring it out. If you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you. Listen to if you can hear me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Weight Watchers Announcer]

In 2023, a story gripped the UK evoking horror and disbelief.

[Bradley Hall]

The nurse who should have been in

[Emily Simpson]

charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in New York, modern British history.

[Weight Watchers Announcer]

Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict. A villain. A nurse named Lucy Letby.

[Emily Simpson]

Lucy Letby has been found guilty.

[Weight Watchers Announcer]

But what if we didn't get the whole story?

[Mind Games Host]

The moment you look at the whole

[Emily Simpson]

picture, the case collapses.

[Weight Watchers Announcer]

I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, the Case of Lucy Letby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it. To ask what really happened happened when the world decided who Lucy Letby was.

[Jo Winterstein]

No voicing of any skepticism or doubt

[Emily Simpson]

it'll cause so much harm at every

[FBI Narrator]

single level of the British establishment of this is wrong.

[Weight Watchers Announcer]

Listen to Doubt the Case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jo Winterstein]

Hi, this is Jo Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast where we talk about astrology, natal charts and how to step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with a mini driver.

[Emily Simpson]

The Irish traveler said when I was 16. You're going to have a terrible time with men.

[Jo Winterstein]

Actor, storyteller and unapologetic Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom loving and different perspectives. And I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius like are misunderstood a sun and Venus. And in Aquarius in her seventh house spark her unconventional approach to partnership.

[Emily Simpson]

He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms, on different houses, in different places, but just an embracing of the isness of it all.

[Jo Winterstein]

If you're navigating your own transformation or just want a chart side view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity and real life, this episode is a must. Listen. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcast.

[Emily Simpson]

She unsuccessfully appealed her convictions twice. We talked about that. And then in February 2026, a coroner formally opened inquests into several of the infant deaths. Well, you know what my other question is? The whole time I was watching this documentary and the whole time I was reading these articles, why are people still giving birth in this hospital?

[Bradley Hall]

Well, do they know these. Oh, you mean after. It's like publicly?

[Emily Simpson]

I'm just saying, I wouldn't. I mean, the, the hospital can. That neonatal unit still exists and babies are still being born there. What?

[Bradley Hall]

Well, because, I don't know. They got rid of her.

[Emily Simpson]

I'm just telling you, if I was pregnant, I'd be like, don't take me.

[Bradley Hall]

We should look up the Yelp reviews on that hospital and see if they're

[Emily Simpson]

like, I don't care if we have to reroute and we have to like go a longer distance. I'm not going to that.

[Bradley Hall]

Or we can just have it in the bathtub. Something, right?

[Emily Simpson]

The case attracted widespread media attention, with many debating if Letby is actually one of the most prolific child serial killers in history, or if the hospital is using her as a scapegoat for their lives.

[Bradley Hall]

They have bad practice. If they have bad practices and they want to blame something other than themselves, right, Then they might say, hey, this lady works a lot. Let's accuse her.

[Emily Simpson]

Right? So as we were talking about, In February of 2026, a Netflix documentary titled the Investigation of Lucy Letby premiered, featuring arrest footage and interviews disputing aspects of the prosecution's case. All right, I will tell you, I did as much as I could. I did as much research, research as I could. I read as many articles as I could. I even got on Reddit and read all the things that I could find on Lucy Lepy. And it comes down to, you know what, if I'm going to have to pick a side, I'm going to go with this safe side where I don't think we should give a 33 year old woman a life sentence for the rest of her life when there isn't a smoking gun. There's no smoking gun. And I'm sorry, but in order to put someone in prison for the rest of their life, I need a smoking gun. I need video camera footage. I need her to, I need someone to show me that this woman is killing these babies on purpose because she's sick and demented and she deserves to stay in prison the rest of her life. That's what I need.

[Bradley Hall]

You have, what's better, an innocent person in jail or you know, someone that's guilty on the streets?

[Emily Simpson]

I mean, I'm gonna err on, I would feel more comfortable with her on the streets, just not working with babies. Like maybe she needs a different or elderly career path, something away from health care. But until there is something that proves to me there is some type of smoking gun that says that I'm like convinced that, well, you have to think

[Bradley Hall]

about the letter, the notes or diaries that she wrote were, I'm not good enough, I'll never marry, I'll never have children.

[Emily Simpson]

All these did it, I'm evil.

[Bradley Hall]

Well, yeah, all those things. Well, let' assume she's not guilty for purposes of my point. Okay, so she's writing in her journal, I, you know, I'm, she's depressed, right? I, I'll never marry, I'm not gonna have children, I'm not good enough, all these things. And then she gets thrown in jail for life. Now what do you think she thinks? She thinks this is my life, like I'm worthless, I'm no good. And, and then she thinks I'm just destined to kind of have a miserable life. And it's, it's an awful thing to think. I think a lot of even guilty people think that because I watched sometimes a lot of court sentencing and things like that. On tv. And I always feel that these usually kids or young people think, well, that's just kind of my life. I grew up in an unfortunate situation. I have crappy parents or whatever and whatever, I'll just go to jail. And they kind of just throw their arms in there. And I. Anyway, that's the part of me that feels really bad for people sometimes.

[Emily Simpson]

But. Are you saying that you think her ramblings were more just a stream of, like, just questioning, like she was just depressed and she's just.

[Bradley Hall]

No, I was only going on the. The possibility if she were to be not guilty, and she truly was just a nurse that just couldn't save these kids, these babies, or, or just had bad luck with caring for them. And then she's already depressed about herself and now she gets thrown in jail and blamed. I mean, that's. That's heartbreaking.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. So let's just. Where she's at now. So her case is now being reviewed by the ccrc, which stands for the Criminal Cases Review Commission. And they have the task of reviewing the expert reports that we talked about, how her defense had. Had compiled the. The 14, I believe, experts, and they drafted a report which has been submitted by her defense team to the ccrc. So now they're. I don't know if there's a time frame on that or. I don't know if it's like the Supreme Court, where you can. They can just take all the time in the world to decide whether they're going to pick something up and read it and. And adjudicate it. But that's where her case is now. For purposes of our discussion, I would hope that they read it and that they give her. Whatever happens, whatever the, the, you know, judiciary is with this. I don't know if I think it kicks it back to the appeals court. Like, I think if they read it and think, okay, this is substantive and it would make a difference. Let's kick it back to the appeals court then. I hope that happens because I feel like she should have another day in court.

[Sixth Bureau Narrator]

Yeah.

[Bradley Hall]

I don't. I. Everything I've looked at, which probably wasn't as much as you. I don't see any reason to give her all those sentencings. Right. I think. I don't think she's not guilty.

[Emily Simpson]

No.

[Bradley Hall]

Excuse me. I don't think she's innocent. I don't know that she's innocent, but I say she's not guilty by a matter of law.

[Emily Simpson]

No, I agree with what you're saying. I'm not saying that. Either. I'm not saying I'm convinced she's innocent. I'm just not convinced that she's guilty and should spend the rest of her life in prison. So that's where we're at on Lucy Letby. I would love to know your guys's thoughts. If you've seen the documentary on Netflix, what are your thoughts on Lucy Letby? Or if you've read more things on the case or if you've been invested in it and you have more details,

[Bradley Hall]

or if there's any other hospital staff members out there that kind of have come across, like, you know, situations where it's sketchy, but it's also just unfortunate medical standards and lack of care or just mishaps.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. So we would love to hear your thoughts so you can let me know on Instagram. Also, guys, please be sure to follow us at Legally Brunette and you can listen to us anywhere you listen to podcasts. And also be sure to tell your friends and family. We appreciate that very much. So thank you so much for listening.

[Bradley Hall]

Thank you. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall.

[FBI Narrator]

In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world.

[Sixth Bureau Narrator]

The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets.

[FBI Narrator]

Listen to the 6th Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jo Winterstein]

Hi, it's Jill Interestein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And today I'm talking with my dear friend Krista Williams.

[Emily Simpson]

It can change you in the best way possible. Dance with the change. Dance with the breakdowns.

[Jo Winterstein]

The embodiment of Pisces intuition with Capricorn power moves.

[Emily Simpson]

Just so. I'm, like, delusionally proud of my chart.

[Jo Winterstein]

Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast.

[Nancy Glass]

I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt season two podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything.

[Sixth Bureau Narrator]

I was a monster.

[Nancy Glass]

Listen to Burden of guilt season two on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Weight Watchers Announcer]

What if mind control is real?

[Emily Simpson]

If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

[Weight Watchers Announcer]

Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?

[Bradley Hall]

When you look at your car, you're

[Ben Higgins]

going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings.

[Weight Watchers Announcer]

Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?

[Bradley Hall]

I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.

[Weight Watchers Announcer]

Can you get someone to join your cult?

[Emily Simpson]

NLP was used on me to access

[Weight Watchers Announcer]

my subconscious mind games. A new podcast, exploring nlp, AKA Neuro Linguistic Program. Is it a self help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.