Legally Brunette: The Yogurt Shop Murders

Summary

Two Ts In A Pod: Legally Brunette – The Yogurt Shop Murders

Podcast: Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge
Episode: Legally Brunette: The Yogurt Shop Murders
Release Date: September 23, 2025
Host: Emily Simpson (with Shane Simpson)

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Episode Overview

This episode of “Legally Brunette” (guest episode on the Two Ts In A Pod feed) delves into the notorious 1991 Austin, Texas “Yogurt Shop Murders”—the still-unsolved quadruple homicide of four teenage girls. Emily and Shane Simpson methodically break down the crime, the flawed investigation, false confessions, wrongful convictions, and the ongoing impact on the victims’ families and those accused. The hosts also offer updates on the Menendez brothers and the Blake Lively–Justin Baldoni case before focusing deeply on the Yogurt Shop case.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recent True Crime Legal Updates

Menendez Brothers Habeas Petition (03:31–08:16)

• Emily: Summarizes the denied request for a new trial for the Menendez brothers.

  • Two new evidence points: the “Andy Cano letter” alleging sexual abuse, and a member of Menudo (Roy Rosello) claiming similar abuse from Jose Menendez.

• The judge found both pieces of evidence lacked relevance to the core legal issue—“imminent fear” at the time of murder.

• Quote:

  “This letter corroborates the abuse but it doesn't help with the imminent fear.”
  – Shane Simpson (06:23)

• Habeas pathway now closed; parole may be possible in 3 years provided good behavior, or by gubernatorial commutation.

Blake Lively–Justin Baldoni Case (08:29–13:02)

• Emily: Updates listeners that Baldoni’s legal team now includes Alexandra Shapiro (formerly of Diddy’s defense).
• New (unnamed) individual alleges repeated “negative interactions” with Baldoni, possibly set to testify.
• Emily expresses skepticism of the credibility of abuse claims based on her research of both parties’ communications.
• Insightful commentary on the challenge of assessing “he said/she said” disputes in civil rights allegations.

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2. The Yogurt Shop Murders – Case Deep Dive

Case Background and Initial Crime (15:50–19:11)

• Emily:
  • Four teens killed in an “I Can’t Believe It’s Yogurt!” shop in Austin, TX, December 1991. Bound, gagged, shot in the head, and the shop set on fire.
  • Two sisters (Jennifer, 17, and Sarah, 15) and their friends (Eliza, 17, and Amy, 13).
• The HBO docuseries on the case focuses less on “true crime” mechanics and more on the long-term grief of the families.
• Director Margaret Brown opted not to show crime scene photos out of respect for victims.

Investigation Flaws and Police Tactics (19:12–39:44)

A. Aggressive & Coercive Interrogations

• First suspect: Maurice Pierce (16), found with .22 caliber pistol (the same caliber as suspected murder weapon).

  • Quote:

    “A 16-year-old in a police station at midnight is already posing some concerning questions.”
    – Shane (21:03)

• Interrogated at midnight by Sgt. Hector Polanco, known for extracting confessions under duress.

  • Quote:

    “I've seen him get confessions from somebody that did not have a thing to do with it. But Hector can scare the shit out of you and make you confess.”
    – Detective Mike Huckabee (22:07)

• Pierce names other boys, does not confess himself.

• Subsequent suspects: Forrest Wellborn, Michael Scott, and Robert Springsteen; all subjected to marathon, highly-pressurized interrogations.

• Examples of coercive, manipulative tactics:

  • Investigators provide “right answers” when forced guesses are wrong, and reinforce false “memory retrieval.”
  • Quote:

    “Michael, it wasn’t shoelaces. ... What was it? ... Clothes. Yes, that’s it, Michael.”
    – Emily (34:48)

B. Addressing False Confessions

• Technological limitations: much physical evidence destroyed by fire or firefighting efforts; almost no usable DNA at the time.
• All confessions factually conflicted, and suspects continually pointed at each other.
• Reference to the Reid Technique (39:40):
  • Quote:

    “The police use a nine step interrogation process… increasing the risk of false confessions… it’s psychologically manipulative and coercive.”
    – Emily (39:56)

Trials, Wrongful Convictions, and Exoneration (40:05–49:18)

• Two suspects, Michael Scott and Robert Springsteen, convicted almost entirely on the basis of confession evidence; no physical evidence.

  • Springsteen sentenced to death.
  • Scott sentenced to life in prison.

• Sixth Amendment Violations:
  Confessions used against each other without cross-examination; convictions overturned after around 10 years (42:34–44:53).

  • Quote:

    “You can’t have Michael Scott’s confession… against Robert without being able to then cross-examine Michael Scott… there were blatant Sixth Amendment violations.”
    – Emily (43:10)

• Breakthrough in Forensic DNA:
  Advances allowed creation of a full DNA profile from a vaginal swab—did not match any of the four accused boys (45:01).

  • State claimed possible contamination or a fifth suspect; all 200+ potential scene contacts tested—no match.

• All charges dropped in 2009.

Lingering Uncertainties & The Lasting Effects (47:14–58:04)

• Families of the victims remain convinced of the original suspects’ guilt, despite exculpatory DNA.

  • Emily and Shane liken this “tunnel vision” to the Delphi Murders case.

• Maurice Pierce (the original suspect) later killed by police during a traffic stop; psychological trauma from the ordeal likely contributed to his panicked actions (49:18–51:00).

• Investigation criticized for tunnel vision and neglecting alternate leads (52:19–56:46).

• There are new, credible DNA profiles at the scene, but the culprit remains unidentified.

• FBI may have a matching DNA sample but has not shared with Austin investigators due to "legal complications" (53:43–55:10).

• Other leads, including two unidentified men seen near closing and theories involving local groups, were never fully explored.

• Emily's Summary:

  • Tragedy compounded for both the victims’ families and the young men falsely accused.
  • Investigation failures possibly set back the search for the true perpetrator(s).

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Interrogations:

  "Who gets interviewed at midnight? Why are they interviewing a teenager at midnight?"
  – Emily (22:03)

• On Coercion:

  "He can scare the shit out of you and make you confess. He’s okay with it as long as he gets a confession."
  – Detective Mike Huckabee (22:07)

• False Confessions:

  “At best, they end up being tried. First of all, Forrest ends up getting off … but they don’t have any physical evidence.”
  – Emily (39:40)

• On PTSD Effect:

  “He suffered from such severe PTSD from being interrogated so many times… He had no [reason to trust police] … So his reaction was to flee.”
  – Emily (50:07)

• On the Investigation:

  “I'm gonna go with the theory that the police sucked at the investigation... allegedly.”
  – Shane & Emily (57:39–57:45)

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Key Timestamps (MM:SS)

• 03:31 – Menendez brothers latest legal update
• 08:29 – Blake Lively/Justin Baldoni case update
• 15:50 – Introduction to the Yogurt Shop Murders
• 21:03 – Concerns about midnight interrogation of minors
• 22:07 – Detective Mike Huckabee describes Hector Polanco's interrogation style
• 34:48 – Example of “memory retrieval” tactics in interrogations
• 39:40 – Discussion of the Reid technique and false confessions
• 40:56 – Convictions and sentencing for Scott & Springsteen
• 42:34–44:53 – Overturning of convictions on Sixth Amendment grounds
• 45:01 – DNA evidence does not match suspects
• 49:18 – Maurice Pierce’s later life and death
• 53:43 – FBI DNA match withheld from Austin police
• 57:39 – Critical summary of police investigation performance

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Tone & Style

• The hosts’ tone is conversational, analytical, and at times, darkly humorous—especially when exposing the absurdities of the investigation and the criminal justice process.
• Emily blends empathy for the families and accused with informed legal perspective; Shane offers thoughtful questions, layman’s skepticism, and comic relief.

---

Conclusion

This episode offers a clear, thorough, and compassionate examination of the Yogurt Shop Murders: the shock of the original crime, the heartbreak of flawed justice, and the corrosive legacy of police tunnel vision. It’s a powerful illustration of the risks of confession-based convictions and the limits of old-school investigative tactics in the face of ever-advancing forensic science.

For those interested in both true crime and legal process, this is a can’t-miss episode—and a cautionary tale about the dangers of “solving the tough cases” at any cost.

Transcript

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[Emily Simpson]

Hi guys. Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunette. I will be your host today, Emily Simpson with Shane. Shane Simpson first of all, again, just a reminder, we are now on our own feed. So if you could, if you love listening to us, you can go over to our feed called Legally Brunette. It's so much easier to find. Now click follow. So make sure you're following us. And all of our episodes are now populated there, so you don't have to kind of go through two T's to locate them. Also, just a big shout out and thank you to two T's. That was definitely a huge help for us to launch this podcast. It allowed us to have an audience that could come and listen and really enjoy us. So a big thank you to them for allowing us to get our start.

[Shane Simpson]

Yes. Thank you.

[Emily Simpson]

So today, let's do just a little bit of updates. There were a couple things in the news that I wanted to talk about because we've been following Menendez through all of this. So there were some new things that came up. So let's just go through those. First of all, if you remember we talked about in earlier episodes, if you want to go back and listen to any of our earlier Menendez episodes, there was a Habas petition before Judge Ryan and that was basically asking for a new trial based on new evidence. So recently the judge, Judge Ryan, denies the Menendez brothers petition for a new trial and their latest setback. That was an ABC News article. So last Tuesday, a judge denied the Menendez brothers habius corpus petition, which they had submitted back in 2023, that was to throw out their old conviction and receive a new trial. And based on recently discovered evidence. And if you do remember the two new pieces of evidence, do you remember what they were, the two new pieces of evidence?

[Shane Simpson]

A letter from a childhood or a longtime friend or it was his cousin. Yeah. That claimed abuse. So it kind of corroborated the stories that the father was abusive.

[Emily Simpson]

It was a letter that Eric Menendez had written to his cousin Andy, basically alluding to the sexual abuse by his father, Jose. So that was included in the habeas. And the second piece of new evidence, do you remember the second one?

[Shane Simpson]

The fingerprints on the knife?

[Emily Simpson]

No, there was no. There was no knife.

[Shane Simpson]

Wrong case.

[Emily Simpson]

Wrong case. It was, there was a documentary that came out about the Menudo, member of the Menudo, remember the band?

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, so it was another witness testimony.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. Roy Rosello, that's his name. I watched it. He also came forward and said that when he was a member of Menudo and he was very young, that he was also.

[Shane Simpson]

Abused.

[Emily Simpson]

Abused by Jose. And so those were the two pieces of corroborating evidence. However, the judge said that the 1988 letter from Andy Cano, who is the cousin, about alleged abuse was not very strong. Even saying it contradicted the brothers attempts at a new trial. The judge said neither piece of newly discovered evidence is particularly strong. The Kano letter contradicts in part the testimony of Eric and Andy Cano, who testified in the original trials. It also only corroborates what was already discussed at length by both witnesses. The two did discuss Jose's abuse. At best, it does not additionally inform the jury of petitioners alleged fear at the time of the murders. And at worst, it puts a crack in the credibility of both witnesses. I'm not sure exactly what he means by the credibility of both witnesses, but I do understand where he's saying the main issue is whether they were justified in killing their parents that night because they were fearful of their life. And that's why they claim that they got the shotguns and they shot their parents because they were afraid their parents were going to kill them. And he's saying this letter corroborates the.

[Shane Simpson]

Abuse, but it doesn't help with the imminent fear.

[Emily Simpson]

With the imminent fear, exactly. The judge also disputed the relevance of testimony from Roy Rosello, who is the member of Menudo. As for the Rosello declaration, that corroborates the general allegation that Jose was sexually abusive of boys and young men, but it is not relevant to the petitioner's state of mind at the time of murders. So again, it's the same thing. It's saying, yeah, again, this corroborates that he was sexually abusive. However, again, it does, but it kind.

[Shane Simpson]

Of just stops there. It's like, yeah, okay, we're not. Fine. There's abuse, but there's more needed in order to have a better defense.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. So. Speaking at a news conference on Tuesday after the judge's decision, LA County District Attorney Nathan Hockman told reporters that the judge's decision amounted to a full kibosh on the brothers habeas petition. And he's right. Now that the judge made a decision on the habeas petition, there's no other road that's done. There's nothing else to do. So that road is blocked. They still have the possibility of getting out on parole, which we spoke about previously when we did an episode on.

[Shane Simpson]

But that's not for three years.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, it said, remember we were. It said 18 months they would be eligible. I think in 18 months they can start petitioning for parole and probably start.

[Shane Simpson]

But if all goes well, it wouldn't be sooner than three.

[Emily Simpson]

It wouldn't be sooner than three years. So anyway, that is their other option. And then there's always the option that Governor Newsom decides to.

[Shane Simpson]

He actually wakes up.

[Emily Simpson]

And he wakes up, he's like, what? He could commute them and, you know, maybe get in people's good graces.

[Shane Simpson]

The Menudo brothers. And they're like, no, sir, it's the Menendez brothers. We've gone over this before.

[Emily Simpson]

It's Menendez. All right, so that is the update on Menendez. We'll keep following that and see what happens. I don't know. What do you think the likelihood of them ever. Do you think they'll be paroled at some point?

[Shane Simpson]

No.

[Emily Simpson]

No, you don't?

[Shane Simpson]

I, I have no reason to think they would. In three years versus right now, all that's happened. Well, I don't know what could happen in the next three years. What, What? I guess they would have to do something different because then they have like cell phone use or they work right.

[Emily Simpson]

They had some infractions and they had cell phone use. So I guess if they were just had a clean record for the next three years and they didn't have any infractions, maybe then, you know, I think it's a possibility. But maybe again, we'll see. We'll continue to follow it. Another update, just a brief update on Lively and Baldoni. We took a step back from that because I was tired of talking about Blake Lively. But I think there's some interesting things that have come up in the trial recently, or not the trial, but the case. They're going to go to trial next spring. At least that's on the calendar. We'll see what continues to happen. But Justin Baldoni has hired Alexandra Shapiro to join his legal team amid his ongoing case with Blake Lively. If you don't remember the name of Alexandra Shapiro, she was part of Diddy's defense team.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, okay.

[Emily Simpson]

The addition of Shapiro to Baldon's team comes as he is facing further scrutiny as another individual has come forward with claims of harassment. This is according to a newly filed court document, which was obtained by the Daily Mail. Also, I do remember when we talked when I read all the legal documents in the beginning, when it came to Blake Lively, her original crt, I think that's what it was called. It was a civil rights violation. Remember, it wasn't an actual.

[Shane Simpson]

It was just a formal written. It was a formal written complaint memorializing her allegations.

[Emily Simpson]

And she alleged in that first initial complaint that there was Someone else on the set that also had filed something against him for harassment. But she didn't name who it was and there wasn't any details and it was very vague. So I don't know credibility is the same person or if this is someone different that they managed to find. In a sworn declaration filed by Blake Lively's lawyer, the individual, whose name has been redacted, alleged they endured repeated negative interactions with Mr. Baldoni and his associates, including verbal abuse by Mr. Baldoni. The unnamed person further claimed that Baldoni was not permitted on set during the majority of production as a result of those exposed experiences. I don't know if this person is referring to. It ends with us. We've already discussed the fact that he wasn't allowed on set because Lively made sure that he was. He was taken off of the movie. So I don't know. Also, it's very hard for me to find this man to be verbally abusive after all of the research I've done. Everything I've read, all of his text messages, all of his communications with Blake Lively, I don't find him to be a verbally.

[Shane Simpson]

You find her to be more verbally abusive than him? Well, I find things you've read and seen.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, I mean I've seen a lot of interviews with her where she's very self righteous, but even the text messages.

[Shane Simpson]

Isn't she a little bold?

[Emily Simpson]

She is. And so I don't know. It's hard for me to believe that there's any type of verbal abuse when it comes to this man. I don't know. I don't. I don't find it. I don't know. We'll have to have more information to find it credible. But the individual also said they requested that Baldoni not be involved in marketing or public relations efforts, which I again, I believe that that was Blake Lively requesting that he not be involved in any of the marketing. And he was removed from a lot of the things.

[Shane Simpson]

Even the premiere day, right?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, he was in the basement at premiere day. So I don't know who this other person is. This is will be interesting once that comes out. A source told TMZ that the individual is likely to testify against Justin and Lively's trial. The filing also references Baldoni's business partner, Wayfarer co founder Steve Sarawitz, noting that the accuser had been contacted by Sarawitz assistant to arrange a meeting, though no specific topic for the discussion was identified. The document was filed in Sept. On Sept. 4 of 2025 and was submitted under penalty of perjury Okay. I find this interesting because we'll continue to follow that because again, when we talked about this case earlier, Sorowitz is kind of like a silent partner. But I do remember that she made allegations that he was on set when she was doing the birthing scene, and that she was uncomfortable with him being there and that. I don't know. I just. Again, it just seems.

[Shane Simpson]

Who. Who would work with her? Again? I. I wouldn't.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, when she reaches out to you and asks you to be in her next movie, you can tell her how you feel.

[Commercial Announcer]

Like I would.

[Shane Simpson]

However, I would be in your. I've been paying attention. My wife doesn't like you.

[Emily Simpson]

No.

[Shane Simpson]

Allegedly.

[Emily Simpson]

Allegedly.

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[Emily Simpson]

Pressure is coming down.

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[Sophie Cunningham]

Max this is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA, in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don't sleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lily, a medicine company.

[Emily Simpson]

We're going to go on and move on to the bulk of what we're going to talk about today, which is the yogurt shop murders. This is a four part HBO series. It was recently just came out on hbo. So if you have the opportunity to watch it, I think it was very, very interesting. It was done well. So the yogurt shop murders refer to a 1991 unsolved quadruple homicide of four teenage girls at an Austin, Texas. I Can't Believe it's yogurt. Do you remember that? Do you remember those?

[Shane Simpson]

No, I just remember I can't believe it's not butter.

[Commercial Announcer]

Oh, it's margarine.

[Shane Simpson]

You don't remember that?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, well, I do remember that, but this is I Can't believe it's yogurt. They called it icby.

[Shane Simpson]

Well, I'm sure it was a play on that phrase.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane Simpson]

Either way.

[Emily Simpson]

Right? So this is.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh yeah, okay, now I remember. Yeah, the acronym icby.

[Emily Simpson]

Icby. They were big, they were popular. Like, like now it's yogurt land. Yeah, right here. I don't know in other places, but here in Southern California there's a ton of yogurt land. But it's the same, it's the same concept, but it was called I Can't believe it's Yogurt. It was a crime that shocked the community and left a lasting trauma. The victims were forced to the back of the shop. This is four young teenage girls, the four victims and the yogurt shop murders. Two of the girls, Eliza and Jennifer, who were both 17 at the time, worked at the shop.

[Shane Simpson]

So they're closing shops. It was like 11 o' clock at night.

[Emily Simpson]

The end of the night they're closing. There's two girls at work there. They're closing the shop. That's Eliza and Jennifer. They're 17. Sarah, who was 15, was Jennifer's younger sister. And then she was there with her best friend amy, who is 13. So you have four teenage girls in a yogurt shop, chatting, having a good time, cleaning up, closing a shop. Someone comes in and. And forces them to the back of the shop, ties them up, gags them, and then shot all four girls to death before the shop was then set on fire. The case has remained a significant mystery for years, complicated by aggressive interrogation tactics, which we're going to get into, that led to false confessions and questionable evidence before newer technology and investigations brought new focus to the case. Again, a docu series titled the Yogurt Shop Murders chronicles the tragedy. It's on hbo. Also, what I thought was interesting about the yogurt shop murders on HBO is the new director used a lot of old footage from. I think Variety was going to do a docu series on it, but for some reason it never happened. So they have all this footage.

[Shane Simpson]

You're saying a docu series was initiated?

[Emily Simpson]

Was initiated.

[Shane Simpson]

Maybe they went through. They did a significant amount of it. And then they dropped it.

[Emily Simpson]

And then they dropped it. I don't know why it was dropped.

[Shane Simpson]

But it was dropped.

[Emily Simpson]

But it was dry.

[Shane Simpson]

And then they picked up where it left off and added to it.

[Emily Simpson]

And now. Now this is recent. It just. It just came out in 2025 in August. So they've used a lot of that older footage, but they've also added in a lot of new interviews with the family. Also, what's different about the yogurt shop murders? It's true crime. But I think the director, she didn't focus on true crime. She focused on the impact that grief has on the family.

[Shane Simpson]

The community. Oh, the family.

[Emily Simpson]

The community. And the families. But specifically the families. How it's been 30 years, how, where they are, how they've processed through it. I mean, you have to think about the one mother lost two daughters.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah, no, it's. And they interview her and in a horrific manner, too. I mean, those are the only thoughts that are going through your head when you're right, child was killed like that.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. The director was named Margaret Brown. And I read an interview with her, and she told Variety, this is In August of 2025, right after this docu series came out, that she, her team, or the her, it's called A24, that's her production company, covered some of her team's therapy costs because they were shown photos of the actual crime scene and that it was really hard on their system. Now in the docu series, they don't show actual photos of the crime scene, obviously for respect to the victims and the families. They show crime scene photos of fire and evidence and things like that, but they don't actually show bodies. Bodies. Right. So let's just go through a timeline of the events and. And then get to where we at today with this. So on December 6th, 1991, around midnight. Awesome. Firefighters respond to a fire at the camp. I can't believe it's yogurt shop on Anderson Lane. Inside they find the bodies of Jennifer, Sarah, Eliza and Amy, all teenagers that were bound, gagged, shot in the back of the head, execution style. And the store had then been set on fire. I mean, clearly the fire was set as a way to.

[Shane Simpson]

Destroy the evidence.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. So nine days later, this is December 15th in 1991. The police stop this young kid named Maurice Pierce. He's 16 at the time, at the North Cross mall. He has a.22 caliber pistol tucked into his waistband.

[Shane Simpson]

And that's the same type of gun that was used in the murders? Yes, same caliber.

[Emily Simpson]

Anyway, so the.22 was considered a possible match for the murder weapon. They bring Maurice in for an interview and he's interviewed by police sergeant Hector Polanco. And the interview starts at midnight. Now this is interesting. This kid is 16. He gets brought into the police station. He's 16 years old. He doesn't have a parent with him.

[Shane Simpson]

I believe that's my question is like if our, we had a sick, if we had a 16 year old and they don't come home, we'd want to know where they were. And if the police called and said, oh, he's in our interrogation room, you would drive down, I would think like, okay, where? So I, I don't know. Maybe you do. I don't know what's going on, but a 16 year old in a police station at midnight is already posing some concerning questions.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. And there's other boys that become involved and we'll go through that. But according to the docu series, and I think this is interesting, is that these boys come from broken families. And I think that this kid, this kid Maurice Pierce was known as like a bad kid. Right. He was like the kind of like punk kid in town. He takes a gun to the mall. He's just a, he's, he's known to be a troublemaker. Also the fact that he starts getting interviewed at midnight. Who gets interviewed at midnight? Why are they interviewing a teenager at midnight.

[Shane Simpson]

That's why I'm wondering. This is already off to a bad start, right?

[Emily Simpson]

Also, this Hector Polanco who interviews him. I just want to read a little quote about him because they focus on a lot of problems with, with Hector. Hector Polanco, new interrogation. This is what Detective John Jones says, who's the main. The main investigator on this case. And they interview him in this series. He says, you know, he was a Cobra. He had the reputation in homicide for solving the tough cases. Now when he said that, I thought solving the tough cases or getting people to admit to things that maybe they didn't possibly do. So they also interview, in this docu series, Detective Mike Huckabee, who worked on the case. He also speaks of Polanco in the docu series. And this is what he says about him. The sad thing about it is Hector really is a good investigator. He's a very good investigator, but he don't use it right. Huckabee says, I've seen him get confessions from somebody that did not have a thing to do with it. But Hector can scare the shit out of you and make you confess. He can. He's okay with it. As long as he gets a confession, he's okay. So this is the man who is interviewing a 16 year old at midnight. So I just wanted to give those kind of background information on what people say about Hector and think about Hector. So he interviews Maurice. I'm not sure exactly how long the interview goes, but it starts at midnight. And the. And he actually gets some type of confession from him. I don't think Maurice says that he's actually involved himself, but he names other people and he does give some type of confession as to what happened that night. Then after Polanco is done with him, I'm sure he interviews him all night long. Then the lead investigator, Jon Jones, comes in the next morning and he's like, hey, I need you to take a written statement. He just confessed. So Jon Jones then takes a written statement. The written statement is almost completely different than the oral interview that he gave just earlier over the night.

[Shane Simpson]

Is like factually different.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, factually different. Like, it's just, you know, whatever he was telling, you know, this, this Cobra Polanco in this overnight interview. Listen, I go to bed at 9 o'. Clock. If the police call me in to an interview at midnight, I'd be like.

[Shane Simpson]

Shane's in the interrogation room at midnight. And you'd be like, okay, call me in the morning.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, but I'm Saying if, But if I'm saying if I'm getting interviewed at midnight. Yes, I'm like, I might. I don't know what I would agree to.

[Shane Simpson]

Well, the difference is you would know a little bit more of your rights and you would be like, I'm not gonna, you know, I need an attorney. Or if, if you're not holding me against my will, then I'm going to go home.

[Emily Simpson]

But a 16 year old, right, a.

[Shane Simpson]

16 year old is, is going to be intimidating, especially if they're carrying a gun. And if he didn't do anything wrong, he's just playing and he has a gun, which I don't approve of, but he has a gun and he's just being playful or he thinks he's cool and he has a gun and then this happens. He's gonna, he's gonna be scared.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. So again, Maurice never actually confesses to the murders himself, but he does claim his friend Forest Wellborn took his pistol and told him that he shot the girls and that he liked watching them burn. So he's not, he's not admitting that he himself was involved, but he's naming other people that were involved. Police wire Maurice to get a confession from Forrest, but the confession never comes. He actually like gets wired and goes and talks to his friend Forrest about it. And his friend Forrest never, he never admits to anything or says that he.

[Shane Simpson]

Was involved in any way because he wasn't involved.

[Emily Simpson]

Forrest insists that it was just a joke and that he had nothing to do with the murders. He was with Maurice the whole night, then eight years later. So that goes nowhere. Right, right. They don't really get much of a confession. They try to get Forrest, you know, on wiretap, saying that he was involved. He doesn't admit to doing anything there. Also, there's no physical evidence taken from this crime scene because of the fires. Then when the fire department arrives and they hose everything down, everything gets wet. So then you can't get fingerprints. They don't have. They have very, very small amounts of DNA. But again, this is 1991, so they can't really run it. It's not testable at that time in 1991. You have to have large amounts of liquid to be able to test it back then. So they don't have anything when with.

[Shane Simpson]

The fire, probably whatever other DNA was available that might have been testable at the time is now destroyed.

[Emily Simpson]

So then eight years later, we get to 1998. So nothing happens with this case until 1998. Police revisit Maurice's involvement in this case and ask why he gave conflicting statements. So they bring him back in to the police station. And, you know, this is interesting, too, because I was talking about this with Jasmine, who works with the Innocence Project with me, and she was saying, what's so sad about this in these interrogations? She told me she has a hard time watching the interrogations, is what she said, is that when people go down to the police station, they're going. Because they think they're helping.

[Shane Simpson]

Right?

[Emily Simpson]

They're showing up.

[Shane Simpson]

Like, the guy that says, I was on that bridge last week. He said, I was on that bridge.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

Like, let me know if you have any questions.

[Emily Simpson]

Right, Exactly. In this case. That's interesting. You brought it up. That's Richard Allen from the Delphi murders. I find this case to be very similar to Richard Allen and the Delphi murders. And we can talk about that a little bit.

[Shane Simpson]

They have a suspect, and so they make it fit the crime.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, first of all, you're talking about teenage girls that are. That are murdered in horrific ways. You're talking about no DNA evidence, no fingerprints, no physical evidence left behind in either one. There's a large time lapse that goes by where they don't have a suspect. Then they're bringing people in, and they're basically coercing them into confessions and telling them that they were there. It just. It's. It. The Delphi murders. If you haven't listened to that, we did that podcast last week. It's very. There's a lot of similarities between these two cases. So they bring Maurice back in. This is in 1998. This is eight years later. And they ask why he gave conflicting statements. Maurice can't remember anything, and he never actually confesses. But he does point fingers at the three boys he was with that night. So, again, he never confesses himself that he was involved, but he does say that there were three other guys that he was with that night that were involved in the case. So then this is September of 1999. First, they bring in Forrest Welborn. He's the one that they originally tried to get on a wiretap admitting that he was involved. They bring him back in. He shows up again. This is the other thing. They just keep going to the police station alone with no. No one with them, no attorney present. They don't ask for an attorney. And they go in and they. They sit there, and I don't know. He just.

[Shane Simpson]

It's. Yeah, it's. Well.

[Emily Simpson]

This is.

[Shane Simpson]

Okay, isn't. Didn't you tell me something about there's legislation to try to make it. If you're underage, then an attorney has to be afforded to you without you like expressing your need for an attorney.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, that's. That actually came out of the Terrell Swift case. That if you watch housewives. I, I did a scene with Terrell. Remember he was convicted when he was very young and then he find he signed a false paper.

[Shane Simpson]

He was underage.

[Emily Simpson]

He was underage.

[Shane Simpson]

He was overly interrogated by the police.

[Emily Simpson]

To the point of, of confessing confession, false confession. He spent 20 years in prison. He was exonerated by DNA evidence that, that came out later. And then recently, I don't know the name of the bill, but there was a recent California bill that was passed because of his case that he advocated for. That has to do with not being able to interrogate a minor without an attorney or present.

[Shane Simpson]

This is a state thing. So this is California.

[Emily Simpson]

This is California. This is a California.

[Shane Simpson]

I know other states that have that as well.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. I mean it should be federal, but it's not. But there's no way that you should ever be able to interrogate.

[Shane Simpson]

I'd be embarrassed to talk to a child. Even when our kids friends come over, I feel bad like if I'm gonna like, you know, talk to them and.

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, you get nervous talking to them.

[Shane Simpson]

I don't know if they're going to go home and tell their parents that.

[Emily Simpson]

Shane, he's weird.

[Shane Simpson]

He's taller in person.

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[Emily Simpson]

All right, so then Maurice Pierce names Michael Scott. They bring him in to interrogate him. Let's just talk about Michael Scott's interrogation. They interrogate him for over 20 hours and again, he's backed into a corner. He's got two investigators in his face. The real question is, do you feel free to leave? Right? That's the legal standard, right?

[Shane Simpson]

Well, yes, that is a legal standard. Does anyone ever feel free feel free to leave when you have a police officer standing there and talking to you and then questioning you about something? No one ever feels free to leave.

[Emily Simpson]

Not when you're at the farthest point of the room from the door and you have two investigators 10 inches from your face leaning forward into you talking about and asking you about a crime. I don't think anyone would feel.

[Shane Simpson]

No one feels free to leave and I can't blame them for not feeling free to leave. But the courts say that. They say a reasonable person would feel.

[Emily Simpson]

Free to just jumped up and walked out. Sorry guys, I'm being reasonable. I got this Right. No one does that. Anyway, also, in Michael's interrogation, they actually pull out a gun at a point because they're reenacting the crime scene, right? And they're saying, michael, this is what you did. You were there. Here's the gun. You know, you went up behind her, and you put the gun behind her. And they have an actual gun, and they're brandishing it in his face, putting it to the back of his head.

[Shane Simpson]

Point, even if it's not loaded. Pointing a gun at someone, that's scary, right?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, I, again, a reasonable person, standard, do you feel free to leave?

[Shane Simpson]

Wouldn't feel threatened by their life.

[Emily Simpson]

Another tactic that they use in these interrogations that was just so clear to me that this is just psychological warfare at this point, right? Is they're saying, michael, you know what happened? You. You tied the girls up. How did you do it? You know how you did it? And the first thing he says is shoelaces. And that's not right, right? It wasn't shoelaces. So they're like, no, Michael, you're not remembering it right. You got to think harder, Michael.

[Shane Simpson]

Think like a murderer.

[Emily Simpson]

Right, Michael, it wasn't shoelaces. What was it? And then he's like, electrical cords. And they're like, no, Michael, it's not electrical cords. Think harder. I think he even goes on to say napkins. I'm sure this guy's trying to think of everything possible he could think of. And then finally he's like, clothes. And they're like, yes, that's it, Michael. Because they were bound by their own clothing. And so, I mean, after four attempts, he finally gets it right. And they're like, see, Michael, now you remember. Now you remember what you did that night.

[Shane Simpson]

Goodness. It reminds me of when I worked at Target as an investigator for Internal. External theft. And anytime we would catch someone. Internal, right, Someone on the inside stealing, which was more valuable. It was really a big deal. If you could catch them on the inside, because they're more of a liability, you would interrogate them. So you already have all the evidence. You already have the videos. You have the receipts. You have everything. Now you just want a confession for added, you know, kicks, right? So you go and you get them to confess. But you. They had rules. Target had rules. You could not be between them and the door. Nothing could be between them and the door. And the door had to be cracked open. So. So they felt free to leave. And it was really important. And one of the tactics I use, which cops use, which is, I don't believe you're a bad person. You just made a bad choice. Right.

[Emily Simpson]

You used to use that.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, yeah. Well, no. What I would say is Target's a billion dollar company. They don't care about socks and underwear. Right. It's no big deal.

[Emily Simpson]

They just want to straighten it out.

[Shane Simpson]

And get their money back. So just write down everything you stole and the value. Let's get it squared away. Let's be done.

[Emily Simpson]

So you were doing that thing where you're building rapport, you're being their friend, which cops do.

[Commercial Announcer]

Which is yes.

[Shane Simpson]

And which is true. Because I was saying, let's clear it up. Write everything down, because you're gonna have to pay them back. I didn't let them know that. I already called the sheriff and they're coming to arrest them afterwards once they make a confession.

[Emily Simpson]

So you lied.

[Shane Simpson]

No, no, no. I was truthful.

[Emily Simpson]

You just omitted things.

[Shane Simpson]

I just didn't.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, omission.

[Shane Simpson]

Exactly.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

Anyway, the point is, cops can be crooked.

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, really?

[Shane Simpson]

And shady.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes. Also, I think the point of your story is I feel like Target has stricter.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, yeah, way stricter.

[Emily Simpson]

Way stricter liability.

[Shane Simpson]

Cops have immunity. Right. Can they sue the cop and say, you assaulted me by putting the gun? No, not really. I mean, the police department, maybe, and it gets buried. But private organizations, bam. Big lawsuit, deep pockets.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. Lastly, they interrogate Robert Springsteen. Robert claims that he went to a Rocky Horror Picture show that night. When they bring him in for the interrogation, he's very adamant, and he's believable. He's like, I had nothing to do with this. I wasn't there. Again, those four guys were kind of troublemakers, and they were all together that night, but they're all pointing fingers at each other.

[Shane Simpson]

They don't know what's going on.

[Emily Simpson]

No. And none of their. Their. None of their stories really add up. He claims that he does remember that he was at a Rocky Horror Picture show that night. The police then lie to him and tell him that there wasn't even a showing that night. And you can tell during the interrogation when they say to him, hey, we'll just tell you that there wasn't even a showing that night, that he's dumbfounded. He's like, but I. But I remember being there. I remember going. And then when they lie to him and say there wasn't a showing, then you can tell that he's. That's when they start to get him and they start to get him to confess because he's very confused about what's going on. And you're talking about. These are guys in their 20s. They're not. I don't. I don't think any of them are highly educated. They came from bad.

[Shane Simpson]

Anyone in their early 20s is inexperienced to deal with all. Even someone in their. Their 40s might be inexperienced to deal with all this.

[Emily Simpson]

He does remain adamant that he wasn't at the yogurt shop and he asked to take a lie detector test. This is in the. In the beginning of the interrogation. But after hours of interrogating, he eventually confesses to being there, just like Michael Scott does. And then they start talking about things and obviously this again, how would they know details of this case? This case was very huge and there was a lot going on in the media. They also had claim that they bought a paper the next day when they were in the stolen vehicle and went to San Antonio, that they bought a paper and read about the murder. So whatever these memories are that are coming up or wherever.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah, they have some familiarity with the murder.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. Exactly. A lot of this issue with this false confessions, which they actually go into in the docu series, and I was kind of glad that they did that is they say that the police use a nine step interrogation process and it's widely known as the Reed technique. It's been heavily criticized for increasing the risk of false confessions and. And for being psychologically manipulative and coercive. Tactics used in the Reid technique, like psychological pressure, deception, moral justification, can be very effective at eliciting confessions from both guilty and innocent people. And I don't. To me, that's what it seems like. I mean, did these boys really have anything to do with this murder that night? My takeaway doesn't sound like it. No.

[Shane Simpson]

At least not the evidence doesn't show that the evidence is weak.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. At best, they end up being tried. First of all, Forest ends up. We talked about earlier. Forest ends up getting off because the. He supposedly wasn't involved in it. They say that he was like the getaway driver or something. They don't have any physical evidence. The judge lets him out on bail. He. That's the end.

[Shane Simpson]

He's good to go.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. Robert Springsteen is tried and convicted of capital murder largely based on just his confession, because again, they have no physical evidence.

[Shane Simpson]

Capital murder.

[Emily Simpson]

Capital murder.

[Shane Simpson]

Dang. On that evidence.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes. He gets sentenced to death. This is in May of 2001. Michael Scott goes to trial.

[Shane Simpson]

Wait, so he is sentenced?

[Emily Simpson]

Yes. Robert Springsteen is tried in front of.

[Shane Simpson]

A jury and his sentencing is death.

[Emily Simpson]

He is found guilty of capital murder. And it's all based on his confession or the other people's confession, them naming him, and he is sentenced to death. Again, there is no DNA evidence. There is no fingerprint. There is no physical evidence that ties.

[Shane Simpson]

Not even other. Other witnesses. There's nothing.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, the four guys naming each other in their. In their interrogations.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Michael Scott then goes to trial. His confession is used as the main evidence. Again, there's no fingerprint, DNA. There's nothing that ties him to the crime. He's convicted of capital murder, and he receives life in prison.

[Shane Simpson]

Jeez.

[Emily Simpson]

Maurice Pierce, who was the original kid that was brought in for interrogation because he's the one that went to the mall with the gun, the.22 caliber. He spends some time in jail awaiting trial, but prosecutors eventually drop the charges due to having no physical evidence against him and he would never actually confess. So he's the only one that never actually confessed to being there and being part of this crime. So the d. A. Drops a case against him. However, they make it very clear that he's still a suspect in their eyes.

[Shane Simpson]

So what's the moral of the story there?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, you've got the two guys. So there are four that are all naming each other and they're all being interrogated. You've got two that are convicted, and then you've got Maurice, who actually is, as the charges are dropped against him.

[Shane Simpson]

Because he didn't say.

[Emily Simpson]

Because he never said that he was actually there. He named other people, but he didn't say he was there. Okay. Now they go to prison. They spend about 10 years in prison, and then they both get their convictions overturned because there are blatant constitutional errors. They. So we're talking about Robert Springsteen and Michael Scott. They both have separate trials. However, both pleaded the fifth and did not testify on their own behalf. Also during their trials, and you'll understand this because this is a sixth amendment issue. They used confessions. So in Robert's trial, they use confessions from Michael Scott.

[Shane Simpson]

A made a confession and pointed to B.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

B made a confession and pointed. A. A pleads the fifth, therefore he can't be put on the stand. B pleads the fifth, therefore he can't be put on the stand. Therefore, A cannot question B and confront his witness or accuser, and B cannot question A and confront his accuser. And therefore the confession is inadmissible because you're allowed. You're to. You have a constitutional right to address your accusers.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. So just to simplify that, you have these guys.

[Shane Simpson]

That was pretty simple.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, it was. There's a lot of A's and B's in there. But basically what happened is these guys are accusing each other during these interrogations. And then they have these written confessions. Correct. They take the written statements and they bring it in and show it to a jury as evidence. However, you can't have Michael Scott's confession during an interrogation against Robert without being able to then cross examine Michael Scott. And Michael Scott didn't testify, so there was no way to cross examine him. So again, there were blatant Sixth Amendment violations. So in June of 2006, the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals overturns Robert Springsteen's conviction, ruling his rights were violated because he did not cross examine Scott, whose confession implicated him. And then In September of 2007, the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals overturns Michael Scott's conviction because he could not cross examine Robert Springsteen. So then they end up getting out of prison. Now this is interesting because they do a whole thing in the da, you know, does a press conference and speaks and everything. So now we're in the early 2000s. This murder happened in 1991. And again, we talked about DNA evidence. They had small traces, but in 1991 it couldn't be tested. However, now we're into like, you know, what are we in like 2008, 2009 now? So now they have this thing called YSTR DNA testing. So they could use the small amounts of DNA that they found during a vaginal swab. So they got some DNA from that, but it was a very small amount. But now they can test it. So I know they tested it thinking that that DNA was going to what, match back to who?

[Shane Simpson]

One of the guys that they coerced into confessing?

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. They think, okay, now we can, we can do this high tech new DNA testing.

[Shane Simpson]

Which they should be testing.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. They've got this small amount of DNA from a vaginal swab. The full DNA profile comes back and does not match any of those four boys. So now you've got a full DNA profile of someone else that's not any of those four.

[Shane Simpson]

Yep. So to clear them. Yeah, yeah. So far they were sentenced to one was sentenced to death. Imagine had that been carried out.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly.

[Shane Simpson]

That's why the death penalties. A tough one to do because it's irreversible. You can let people out of jail.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

But you can't bring them back to life.

[Emily Simpson]

So the state claims that possibly the DNA could have been contamination or a fifth person was involved. They do not rule out the boys. The state test everyone and then what the state does. This is interesting, too. First of all, I. I watched the docu series and the. And an attorney speaks. He's in a defense attorney for Michael Scott, and he says there's no way that it can be contamination because that DNA sample is found in several other places. It's not just. And how can you have contamination on a rape kit and the vaginal swab? Like, that's. It's not like in the Amanda Knox trial where they take a bunch of knives and they all throw them in a bag together and they're.

[Shane Simpson]

Plus, what's he saying about the integrity of the department? That's, you know, preserving the evidence in the, you know, chain of command and all that stuff.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. But what they did in order to rule out that there was any type of contamination. And when I talk about contamination, that means that someone, you know, someone in the scene accidentally got some D. Their own DNA. So the state tests everyone that could have been present or near the bodies, which was over 200 men, and not a single person matched.

[Shane Simpson]

So. So couldn't that DNA?

[Emily Simpson]

All right, so on June 24, 2009, prosecutors announced that they cannot retry Scott or Springsteen due to the new DNA evidence. Both men are released from prison. And then in October 28th of 2009, all charges against Scott and Springsteen are formally dismissed. You know, what's interesting is the families. And this also reminds me of the Delphi murders. The families still continue to believe that these four boys are involved in some way.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, they do.

[Emily Simpson]

They do, yeah. And I was thinking about it, and.

[Shane Simpson]

I don't want to say that they're not allowed to think that. And obviously they know more about the case than I do, and they're emotionally involved, but it's because they probably have nowhere else to kind of put their grief or. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

You know, it also. It reminds me of Delphi, too, because to me, I. I could not find Richard Allen to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm not saying that he doesn't have the ability to be the one that committed the murders, but to me, not beyond a reasonable doubt. And I feel the same way about these four boys and this whole new DNA profile that doesn't match any of them, but the families still hold on to the fact that they think it's these four boys. And I think you're right in what you're saying. It's because they need something.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Because I don't know what it's like to go through that kind of grief. No one does and no one would judge that. And it's the same thing with the Delphi murders, where the family's convinced that it's Richard Allen. And they can't really. It's like tunnel vision. They can't really see outside of that. And also, it's because I do realize that these families have. Have a bond with the police officers and the investigators.

[Shane Simpson]

They've invested emotionally, they've been invested in. In the accused for however many years.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

The trials.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

And these investigators are following up with them. And what are they saying? These guys did it. We know they did it. We're going to get them for you. You know, and so they don't. They don't have the capacity, I think, to look outside of that. This also is interesting. I did not know this about the case, but Maurice Pierce, who was the original ringleader. Right. The one that took the gun to the mall, he ends up being killed in December of 2009 in Austin. A police officer, they try to pull him over during just a routine traffic stop. I think he ran a stop sign. And instead of pulling over, he took. He takes off and he runs. They pursue him on foot and tackle him. And in this wrestling around, he grabs the knife from the officer's belt and he stabs the officer in the neck. And the officer grabs his gun, shoots him and kills him.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah. And did the officer survive?

[Emily Simpson]

The officer survived. Maurice died. And you know what's sad? This is what his defense attorney talks and says.

[Shane Simpson]

Can I guess.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane Simpson]

Is the position that he was fearful of police.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane Simpson]

Because he's had reason.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane Simpson]

For years to be fearful of being convicted of a crime he didn't commit.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. And also, what they don't. They never ended up telling these boys, or I think really even telling the public, which it came out in this docu series, was that original.22 caliber gun that Maurice took.

[Shane Simpson]

Didn't match.

[Emily Simpson]

Didn't match.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, wait, so it never matched. They knew that from the beginning.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane Simpson]

And they were focused on the Rocky Horror Picture Show.

[Emily Simpson]

They were focused on those boys and getting confessions out of them when it.

[Shane Simpson]

Wasn'T even the right gun.

[Emily Simpson]

It wasn't the right gun. No. And that came out later. But this guy, you're right, He. He suffered from such severe PTSD from being interrogated so many times, from being arrested, from being put in prison, from thinking that he was going to go on trial. He had no.

[Shane Simpson]

He's like, they're gonna. They're gonna get me after something else. They're gonna put me back in that jail.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. So when he. Can you imagine, I can just picture him in a car running a stop sign, which we've all rolled through at some point. Right.

[Shane Simpson]

It's an infraction.

[Emily Simpson]

An infraction. But then he ends up losing his life, which, by the way, he shouldn't have run from police. He shouldn't have grabbed the knife. He should have never.

[Shane Simpson]

And it's understandable that the police would be defending.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. I mean, they had every right to defend themselves.

[Shane Simpson]

And yeah, police always got stabbed in the neck.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly, exactly. But. But his reaction wasn't, I'll just pull over and get a ticket.

[Shane Simpson]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

Like a reasonable person would. His reaction was to flee.

[Shane Simpson]

And he may not even know why he was pulled over. He just saw police, saw flashing lights, thought, they're after me again.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. So, you know, this case to me is very sad. We were talking about this. It's a tragic case. First of all, it's tragic in the fact that there's four young girls that lost their life one night for no reason. For no reason at all.

[Shane Simpson]

Horrifically.

[Emily Simpson]

Horrifically lost their lives. Then you've got these four boys who were interrogated.

[Shane Simpson]

They were set back in their life for years, probably. I don't know what track they were on, you know, to adulthood, but they were set back.

[Emily Simpson]

And then the two of them spent 10 years in prison.

[Shane Simpson]

Set back 10 years.

[Emily Simpson]

One on death row, one in for life.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

And then you've got these families that are grief stricken and it's just this investigation did nothing but cause more. Yeah, more tragedy. Yeah, more tragedy. More loss of life. More grief, more pain. Murray said, and you can honestly say Maurice Pierce, even though he was a punk when he was a kid or whatever, and he brought a gun to the mall, if that kid never took a gun to a mall that day, he'd still be alive. The whole catalyst of this entire situation.

[Shane Simpson]

With these four boys, and this is maybe a bit of a stretch, but they might have also had better luck with finding the actual criminals.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, you're right.

[Shane Simpson]

Because if they were focused all their energy on these boys, these young men, and they're overlooking all other things. Right. Sort of like the bridge guy. They overlook that post it note that had his phone number on it or whatever, because he was at the scene at the bridge last week in the Delphi murders, could very well be the same thing.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. They get tunnel vision.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah. They overlook other. There's a term for it. I forgot what it is. But where they overlook other suspects as they're focused on one.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. And then when they focus on that one, they do everything possible to try to make it fit.

[Shane Simpson]

Yeah, like point a gun at their head.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. Like that. 2017 was the 25th anniversary of the yogurt shop murders. The Austin police reaffirmed that the case remains open and active. The same DNA profile that was found from Amy Ayers, she was the one that they got the vaginal DNA from, Is found on other evidence, but by different labs. So that's another thing that they make clear that the investigator makes clear, because they've had three different sets of investigators. Right. This case has been going on for 30 years. So you had your original investigators, then you had a second investigative team. Now you have a new, like, cold case investigative team on it. And they said that they clarified that this DNA sample could not be contaminated because they've also sent it to two different labs getting the same test results back. So they're adamant that it is a completely different man.

[Shane Simpson]

They really won't let it go, will they?

[Emily Simpson]

In 2021, it was the 30th anniversary. Authorities confirmed that the DNA profile is of an unidentified male, but it still does not match anyone in the national database. However, you know what? I read something, and this is interesting to me because I don't even really understand what this means. But in 2020, new DNA testing matched evidence from the crime scene to an unidentified man, the Austin American statesman reported. This was where I read it, though. The FBI allegedly has a matching sample. They have not handed it over to Austin investigators due to legal complications. Now, what do you think that means? To me, that sounds like they had. They. It says the FBI allegedly has a matching sample, but they haven't turned it over to the Austin investigators due to legal complications.

[Shane Simpson]

Legal complications.

[Emily Simpson]

That sounds to me like they. That the FBI made some match, but they're not going to give that information.

[Shane Simpson]

The legal complications are it's not the people we thought it was. That's what it is. It's not the suspects.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't understand how you can say that there's a. That they've made some match, but they're not going to hand that information.

[Shane Simpson]

Did they say it was a match or they just had some?

[Emily Simpson]

No, it says. It says allegedly that they have a matching sample, but they have not handed it over to Austin investigators due to legal complications. Present day, the case remains unsolved. The investigators continue to hope advanced forensic technology will identify that, but that's not what it is.

[Shane Simpson]

It's the legal complications.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know. I don't know. If I don't know, I don't.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, it's very, very well be saw. I told you they swept stuff under the rug here and then you brought that out.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. See, I can't imagine that the FBI would have a match and then they don't want to turn that information over. I don't know. But I read that. I think I read that.

[Shane Simpson]

The legal complications. It's the chief of police. That's illegally complicated.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. Are there any signs that would point to anyone else? Like how are we ever going to find this? The crime scene is. Shows that the girls were in the middle of closing up the store when this happened. It's believed that two guys were the last in the shop. Police identified 53 customers that came in between 4:30 and 11pm and a number of whom saw these two men. Are they the killers? Were. Why were they never identified? Also, I do remember originally. Do you remember they also originally blamed or brought in those two Mexican. There was a Mexican guy that was like a gang leader or something.

[Shane Simpson]

Oh, yeah, yeah, two.

[Emily Simpson]

Two of them, I believe. And then they said that he did it.

[Shane Simpson]

Well, then they were. They were in. They were. They were in Mexico. There were since then, like whenever they surfaced, they were in Mexico. And then the authorities here wanted a extradite them or whatever. And then they claimed that the Mexican government said, no, we'll prosecute them. And then that's, you know, that's, that's as far as I heard.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, they were also. They also said that their interrogations, that they were slapped around and beaten. Hit and to get their confessions because allegedly they gave a confession as well and said they did it. And then international practice, they just recanted the following day and, and said that, you know, that they were, you know, I don't know.

[Shane Simpson]

This is terrible. Oh, but didn't they match the composite too?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, yeah, but that composite, you know, composite drawings bother me. It's like it looks like you drew it and then it. I mean they never look.

[Shane Simpson]

I don't know, sometimes they're pretty good.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know. I just think back to the Delphi one. Remember they had two different composites and like one's an older guy.

[Shane Simpson]

Well, yeah, I'm not saying they're always dead on, but it is interesting if they look similar.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. There's another theory possibly with this case. All four girls were members of the ffa, which is the Future Farmers of America. And could some guys have the. From the FFA have done it? Because they were also they were bound and gagged. And, you know, when, when they, you know, when they rope animals and stuff, they bind them, like the legs and stuff. Yeah. So I don't know. That's another theory that maybe could have been explored. I don't know. But anyway, I'm gonna go with the.

[Shane Simpson]

Theory that the police sucked at the investigation.

[Emily Simpson]

That's a good theory.

[Shane Simpson]

Allegedly.

[Emily Simpson]

Allegedly. All right, guys, thank you so much for listening to Legally Brunette. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Also, just another reminder that we're on our own feed. So please find us. Follow Us Leave a Review we'd love to hear what you guys have to say. And again, if you have any cases that you think are interesting that you would love for us to cover, I always love the feedback. So thanks for listening.

[Shane Simpson]

Thank you.

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[Shane Simpson]

I'm Ed Helms.

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