Legally Brunette: Unknown Number

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Two Ts In A Pod – Legally Brunette: Unknown Number

Date: September 9, 2025
Hosts: Emily Simpson and Shane
Podcast Feed: iHeartPodcasts

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Overview

In this gripping episode, Emily Simpson and her husband Shane rehash the jaw-dropping "Catfish Mom" case of Kendra Lakari, the basis of the Netflix documentary Unknown Number: The High School Catfish. The discussion focuses on Lakari’s year-plus campaign of cyberbullying against her own daughter, Lauren, and her daughter's boyfriend, Owen, in a small Michigan town. The conversation unpacks how the texts terrorized the teens, the unique dynamics of a tiny town, the investigation’s twists and misdirects, and the disturbing psychology behind Kendra’s actions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Case Introduction and Context

• Small-town setting: Beale City, Michigan, is depicted as a classic insular farm community where everyone knows everyone (04:10–05:10).
  • Emily: “It literally has like two bars and one stoplight, and it's a dairy town, lots of flat fields.” (04:10)
• The cyberbullying began in 2020, initially as mild seventh-grade taunts, then escalated to years of explicit, graphic, and threatening messages (02:10–04:07, 06:30–09:58).
  • Texts aimed to break up Lauren and Owen and attack Lauren’s insecurities, sometimes telling her to kill herself.

2. Evolution of the Harassment

• Two rounds of harassment:
  • First round (7th grade): Mean but not explicit; messages were grammatically correct, no slang; suspected to be Kendra’s initial attempt to seem like a peer (07:33–07:57).
  • Second round: Slang-heavy, “hip” language to mimic teens, much more aggressive and sexually explicit (09:58).
  • Emily: “Now this is when she starts using slang and she starts texting like, like a high schooler would.” (09:58)
• Use of anonymous texting apps (Pinger), frequent change of numbers, and even area codes to avoid suspicion and implicate peers (10:49–16:40).
  • Shane: “She could have just gotten a random phone or WhatsApp app… Lots of ways to have a number that's not tied to you.” (10:49)

3. The Town and School’s Response

• The high school and local sheriff were deeply involved, doing things like reviewing CCTV footage and setting up “sting operations”; teachers watched for suspicious texting behavior in class (17:33–18:21).
• Despite their efforts, they failed to catch the perpetrator, as everyone assumed the bully was another student, likely a known “troublemaker” (Chloe Wilson). Kendra deliberately framed Chloe, using inside info to make her look guilty (14:24–16:40).

4. Investigation Breakthrough

• With local efforts stalling, the FBI-affiliated task force was called in (26:25 onwards).
  • FBI traced the cyberbully through records from Pinger to Verizon, finally connecting the IP addresses to Kendra Lakari (28:54–29:27).
  • Emily: “A week after this text message...he found that only one number had matched his records and it led back to Kendra Lakari.” (29:27)

5. The Reveal and Confrontation

• Staged confrontation: Police used “soft language” when confronting Kendra and breaking the news to Lauren—described by Emily as unsatisfyingly vague and confusing (32:05–40:04).
  • Emily (quoting police): “Sometimes when we aren't thinking straight, we do some things that aren't right.” (33:01)
  • Lauren’s emotionless response likely stemmed from shock and unclear communication (39:39–40:04).
• Kendra’s husband, Sean, learns not only of the cyberbullying but also that Kendra has been lying about having a job for a year, contributing to dire family finances and repeated evictions (41:25–43:32).

6. Family Fallout and Legal Consequences

• Sean divorces Kendra, gaining full custody of Lauren (46:05–46:12).
• Kendra is charged with stalking a minor, not child abuse—prompting bewilderment from the hosts (59:57–60:45).
  • She ultimately serves 19 months in jail and is released on parole with restricted contact with Lauren.

7. Motive and Psychological Analysis

• Kendra attempts to explain her actions, blaming trauma from her own past and positioning herself as an overprotective mother (51:00–52:24).
  • Emily: “I'm not buying it...I feel like that's just some retroaction.” (52:19)
• The hosts and the documentary draw parallels to Munchausen by Proxy (Munchausen by Internet); Kendra may have engineered the bullying to gain sympathy and attention (52:32–53:35).
• Emily: “Kendra was addicted to this. I mean, there's no doubt in my mind.” (54:05)

8. Lasting Effects and Resolution

• Lauren, after initial confusion and continued loyalty to her mother, eventually distances herself, seemingly moving forward with her father (55:39–56:40).
  • Emily: “She seems to be more, I don't know, mature about control of what's going on and understanding more of, like, how horrible her mother was.” (56:40)
• The community’s lingering resentment is highlighted by a Halloween party with a Kendra effigy dressed in a prison jumpsuit and clutching cell phones (64:22–64:23).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On small town dynamics:
  • “Locals concede that Beale City can be a tough place for transplants. Anyone who didn't go to the school or doesn't have one of the known last names will always be considered not from around here.” (05:55) – Emily
• On police approach:
  • “Sometimes when we aren't thinking straight, we do some things that aren't right.” (33:01) – Officer, as recounted by Emily
• On detecting Kendra:
  • “A week after this text message, the one saying ‘kill yourself now’, Officer Peter got a hit on the Verizon IP addresses… and it led back to Kendra Lakari.” (29:27) – Emily
• On Kendra’s motivations:
  • “That's Munchausen by Internet. She’s not making her daughter sick, but she’s stressing her daughter out.” (53:26–53:48) – Emily
• On legal outcome:
  • “She ultimately cut a deal and pleaded guilty to two counts of stalking a minor in exchange for other charges being dropped… 19 months in jail.” (59:59–60:16) – Emily
• Community closure:
  • “At the Wilson's last Halloween party…the mom dressed a scarecrow in a prison jumpsuit and had a mask of Kendra's mugshot on it with cell phones clutched in its gnarled hands.” (64:22) – Emily

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Important Timestamps for Key Segments

• Case overview: 02:10–04:07
• Small-town dynamics & characters: 04:07–06:30
• Harassment details & phases: 06:30–09:58
• Technology & tracing efforts: 10:49–16:40 / 26:25–29:27
• Investigation & frame-ups: 14:24–16:40
• Family reaction/confrontation: 32:05–44:34
• Motive/psychology: 47:07–54:05
• Legal consequences: 59:57–60:45
• Lauren’s recovery & family aftermath: 55:35–57:56
• Final community response: 64:22

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Tone and Style

Emily and Shane maintain a mix of empathy, incredulity, and dark humor throughout. Emily, in particular, brings a legal lens while openly analyzing the deep psychological wounds left by Kendra’s actions. The couple’s dynamic is open and conversational, sometimes bantering or relating aspects to their own parenting.

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Summary Takeaways

• Kendra Lakari’s calculated, long-term cyberbullying and framing of other students traumatized her daughter, divided a whole town, and ultimately led to her own downfall.
• The case exposes the profound harm parents can cause, the shortcomings of tech-enabled investigations, and psychological pathologies like Munchausen by Proxy, now exacerbated by modern technology.
• Lauren’s resilience, the community’s shock, and the legal system’s surprisingly lenient punishment all raise bigger questions about justice and family trust.

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For listeners new to the story, this episode offers a comprehensive, emotional, and sometimes shocking rehash of one of recent true crime’s most disturbing family betrayals.

Transcript

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[Emily Simpson]

Hi guys. Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunette. I'll be your host today. Emily Simpson and Shane. Also, very exciting news. We have done so well and you guys have enjoyed Legally Brunette so much that we are now moving to our own feed so you'll be able to find us easier. I know a lot of you got confused because you were like, it goes to two T's. And now when you search Legally Brunette, it will go to our own feed and we will be bringing you episodes weekly. But for today, we are going to go into the Case of the Catfish Mom, Kendra Lakari. Originally, we weren't even gonna we were gonna talk about a different case, but this has become so huge. Everybody's talking about it. It's a Netflix series that's called Unknown Number, the High School Catfish. So. So let's just go through. Let's just first do, like a brief overview of kind of what we're talking about. If you have not watched it yet, I suggest that you do. Not only is it shocking and different than anything you've probably ever heard before, but it's actually entertaining and has a lot of interviews of all the people involved in it. So this is a case that started in 2022 with two Michigan teenagers, Lauren Licari and Owen McKinney, and they began receiving anonymous text messages from an unknown. Over time, the communications escalated into persistent harassment, with dozens of messages arriving daily that included cruel insults, explicit remarks, and when I say explicit, like grossly explicit, like sexually explicit, and also threats. Most text messages focused on Lauren and Owen's relationship, targeting Lauren's insecurities and eventually forcing them to break up. But the harassment did not stop there. The cyber bully persisted with the text messages and eventually told Lauren to take her own life. And that wasn't just a one time thing. I mean, it was multiple times of like, die and suicide.

[Shane]

Would it say how to kill yourself or just to kill yourself?

[Emily Simpson]

Just to kill yourself? The behavior caused significant distress for the teens and drew the attention of parents, school officials, and local police. As the harassment continued, outside agencies were brought in to assist. After almost an entire year of these relentless messages, and I, I believe at one point they were getting up to 50 messages a. A day. The FBI investigators trace the messages back to none other than Lauren Licari's mother, Kendra Lakari. All right, let's just talk about where this took place, because I think it's important to kind of get a background of, of this small town. Everybody knows everybody, which is where this took place. So the dynamic of what happens happens in this small town called Beale City, Michigan. And when they describe Beale City, it literally has like two bars and one stoplight, and it's a dairy town, lots of flat fields. It reminds me, look, I grew up in Ohio, so when they're describing Beale City, Michigan, I feel like I relate.

[Shane]

It's basically like, these are your people.

[Emily Simpson]

These are my people. It's like Middletown, Ohio. I mean, I went to a very small high school. There were only 99 people in my graduating class.

[Shane]

So then clearly you got valedictorian.

[Emily Simpson]

No. I mean, which is sad. I should have, but no. Okay, so Beale City is a farming community with two pubs and one flashing intersection. They have one school that is all kindergarten through 12th with about 50 kids per grade. The McKinney's. This is Owen McKinney. His family was an established family in that area while Kendra grew up about a two hour drive away in the suburb or excerpts. I don't know what excerpts are. Is that the opposite of suburb and exurb?

[Shane]

I guess so I can, I can look it up if that's what you're asking.

[Emily Simpson]

It's an excerpt of Detroit. Locals concede that Beale City can be a tough place for transplants. That anyone who didn't go to the school or doesn't have one of the known last names will always be considered not from around here. And although Sean Lakari, who is Kendra's husband was from Beale, he wasn't considered to be part of the end crowd within this small town community. So Kendra was not. She did not grow up in Beale City. She grew up two hours outside of it. So I guess she never was like considered, considered an insider within this small town where there's known last names.

[Shane]

Like she was a foreigner of the town kind of thing.

[Emily Simpson]

So let's just get through a little bit of the timeline of events. Let's just break this down.

[Shane]

Last question. Or you can get mad. I might go ahead what you say high school. But wait, it's a 9th grade, 10th grade, 12th grade.

[Emily Simpson]

I. Well actually it's.

[Shane]

Are they of driving age?

[Emily Simpson]

No, no, actually when the text messages, when the harassing text messages first start. So there's actually two rounds of text messages. There's some text messages that come through from an anonym. When they're in the seventh grade and they're dating. You know whether how you date in the seventh grade or whatever.

[Shane]

They're like you sit at the same lunch table like.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. They're like boyfriend and girlfriend. You know, she's very into hang out at the stoplight. Right. They hang out at the stoplight and the dairy fields. She's very into sports, he's into sports. They seem to have that connection. They're in the seventh grade and I think the first round of text messages that come from some anonymous source are mean but they're not explicit and they're. It's more of like haha, you didn't get invited to this Halloween party.

[Shane]

It's like poking.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. And like Owen doesn't really like you and he doesn't want to go with you and blah blah blah.

[Shane]

Which sounds like junior high text messages as opposed to an adult.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly. But if you look at the language and the way that the words are Spelled in that first round, the text messages, it doesn't use slang. Everything spelled correctly, it has punctuation. It's very different than when the second round of text messages, harassing text messages start. So if you really want to analyze it and look deep into it. To me.

[Shane]

Yeah. What does that mean?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, to me it just means that like when she first, she cl. So the mother claims that she didn't send the first round of text messages, that she only got the idea from when these first harassing messages occurred.

[Shane]

Yeah, so other people were harassing my daughter and I decided to join them. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't come up with that idea myself.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. But I mean, I, my, my educated guess would be she clearly sent the messages in the first place and I think she sent them as a mother. Well, even if she, as an adult.

[Shane]

Even so she's no less guilty of. No, I think harassing her daughter to this point, even if she is joined in on others doing it.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. I think that was a non issue that they didn't really get into much in the documentary because it didn't matter whether she sent the first round. It was clear that she said the second round that lasted, you know, over a year, that was up to 50 a day. That was horrible. So anyway, back In October of 2020, Lauren and her boyfriend Owen, who they were age 13, began receiving odd anonymous text messages. One read, hi, Lauren, Owen is breaking up with you. At the time, the teens assumed it was just a prank. Then in late 2020, early 2021, after that initial burst of messages, the messages stopped for several months, giving the couple hope that the harassment was over. Then In September of 2021, the messages resumed, this time with alarming frequency, and the teens began receiving 30 to 50 text messages per. These messages were graphic, sexually explicit, insulting and life threatening. One message included a homecoming photo of Lauren with a vomiting emoji pasted over her head and the words this is the mother, skank and hoe plastered on her body. In a group thread, the texter asked Owen to help take Lauren down and told her that Owen had, quote, said his life would be better if you were dead. End quote. And quote, no one will care if you gone. Now this is when she starts using slang and she starts texting like, like a, like a high schooler would. You know what I mean? She doesn't spell words out. She's like, sorry. Not sorry.

[Shane]

She's more hip.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, she's like hip. She's like learned the slang. So her texting style changes Significantly. So every day for months, the harassment continued. Under immense emotional stress, Lauren and Owen eventually break up, partly in hopes that the messages would stop. But even after they split up, the messages intensified. Both Lauren and Owen's parents became deeply concerned about the teen's well being. Now, first of all, she's sending these text messages under anonymous numbers, which I didn't know you could do. But I learned this, that there's certain software or apps like she used pinger, where you can text but your number's covered up. So every time you text, it just comes up as a different number each time. That's why you don't know who's doing it. So it consistently just keeps changing the number. So your number is hidden and then every time you send a text.

[Shane]

Well, yeah, but she also could have just gotten a random phone or WhatsApp app or something. There's lots of ways to have a number that's not tied to you.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, right. I, I don't know because I don't harass people. But I mean, I don't have.

[Shane]

You do directly to me.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, I just harass people directly to their face.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

In person, not through. I don't have to cover that. I don't have one of those. So anyway, she's using a pinger account.

[Shane]

Okay. But I, I was just getting at. Regardless that that's again a non issue. She just found a way to not expose her number for her daughter.

[Emily Simpson]

So Lauren's mom.

[Shane]

This is for. Since seventh grade.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. So then we're now to December of 2021. Lauren's mom Kendra and Owen's mom Jill gather in the school principal's office, demanding that action be taken towards the cyber bully.

[Shane]

And the mom's in the principal's office. Yeah, she's demanding action.

[Emily Simpson]

She's demanding action. That action be taken. And you know, it's also interesting when you watch this documentary because this documentary was clearly filmed in two parts. They filmed it without Kendra Licari because she initially did not want to be a part of it. And I believe she was in prison at the time when they were filming it.

[Shane]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

So she's not part of it and they filmed the majority of it. Then she does decide to be part of, of the documentary. So now they have interviews with her. But what they've done, which is actually brilliant, is they've gone back and inserted her into the documentary where she's literally talking about how they're trying to find out who this person is. So that's why if you know nothing about this story and you've never heard.

[Shane]

So they kept her from giving spoilers.

[Emily Simpson]

There's no spoiler in the documentary.

[Shane]

Sort of like a confessional that you do. It's like they brought her in. They're like, we need three looks and come in and then tell in, in time of the record what's going on.

[Emily Simpson]

Right, but how is that like me? I don't understand that.

[Shane]

Because they bring you in the studio after you film everything, Right. After the crimes are committed, they bring you in.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane]

And then you talk about it, right?

[Emily Simpson]

Yes.

[Shane]

So this is a prison confessional.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes. So she's in the documentary speaking. And the way that she does it, I mean, talk about not having any, like, conscious. Because she speaks about it with, like, full force of, like, we're gonna find out who this is. We're gonna. You know, we gotta get to this.

[Shane]

Well, that's funny, because this makes sense because you were telling me as you were researching and watching, like, do they not know it's her? Remember, you didn't know if it was the mother, like, the. The production, like, what's going on now we know she came in after the fact and recorded. As if.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane]

Without spoiling anything.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. Well, after I watched the whole thing, I. I did more research and read interviews with the. With the producer or director, Sky Borgman, and it was basically, it came down to they filmed the majority of it, then when she was released from prison, she finally decided to be a part of it. They filmed her, filmed her interviews, added them back in, and then it ended up being amazing tv. Because what happened is you don't think it's her because she's giving interviews about how she's trying to find out who it is. And then there's a moment where it's revealed that it's the mom. And it's shocking if you don't know.

[Shane]

The story at that point.

[Emily Simpson]

So the texter knew intricate details about Owen and Lauren's relationship. Duh. Because it's the mother. For example, like what shirt Lauren was wearing to school that day, specifics of the school's basketball or football games, Lauren not being invited to a Halloween party, etc, leading them to believe that it had to be another student at the school who was.

[Shane]

That would be the logical thought.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. So I think Kendra really goes out of her way to frame it, being a different student. And there's a girl that goes to the school who's friends with Owen named Chloe Wilson. And Chloe already has a reputation of being kind of a bully. She's had A couple complaints against her. She's very strong, she's very outgoing.

[Shane]

So she's a likely candidate.

[Emily Simpson]

She's athletic, her dad's a police officer. Her mom, I see where maybe she gets this bowling allegations because her, her mom's a character. A character. I'll just say that. So Chloe Wilson, a well known popular girl in Lauren and Owen's grade, was initially being framed as a cyber bully. In one message, the bully claimed that she scored 12 points in a basketball game. Kendra Lakari, this is the mom who was the scorekeeper for women's basketball, was able to run and retrieve the stats from that game in order to find out that Chloe was the only one who scored 12 points. So I remember this. She. I believe they were talking about it in the principal's office and the text explicitly Talked about scoring 12 points in a game. And Kendra was like, let me go run and look at the stats. And she pulls up the stats and then she's like, it's Chloe Wilson that scored 12 points. So she's clearly framing these text messages around intimate details that have to do with Chloe Wilson. Lauren had always speculated that Chloe had a crush on Owen. And despite Owen and Chloe, Chloe being close friends, Lauren never had a close relationship with her. This is Lauren and Chloe. They were never really friendly with each other. The Wilson family always has this huge Halloween bash at their house every year and Lauren wasn't invited. And the cyber bully used that specific information to portray her as a loser. In one instance, the cyber bully's area code would change to a 906 area code, which is Michigan's Upper Peninsula, which happened to be exactly where Chloe was snowmobiling with her family at the time. So you can tell that Kendra was very savvy. Not only was she sending text messages through this pinger app that she was using, but she also knew how to change the area code from where these messages were coming to to directly correlate where Chloe was located.

[Shane]

Physically, she was very serious about this catfishing.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, I mean it was really methodical and meticulous and thought out and obsessive. I mean, when you really think about how much time and energy she put into it.

[Shane]

Scary.

[Emily Simpson]

Despite Owen and Lauren's parents zeroing in on Chloe as the perpetrator, Chloe denied the accusations. She even claimed that she had lost friends because of these false accusations. Now we get to January of 2022. Despite the school's best efforts and trying to track down the student responsible for the text, they got nowhere. I do know that. And I thought this was interesting because I don't know how schools handle this or what the policy is, but in my mind, I was thinking, okay, these parents go into the principal's office and they're like, look, our kids are getting cyberbullied. It's probably by someone in the school. It has to be because they have intimate knowledge of these friend groups and things that are going on. And then at what point, like, the school becomes involved? I. I liked the principal.

[Shane]

How so how did they become involved.

[Emily Simpson]

Other than they actually set up some sting operations to a certain point? They. The principal asked the, like Lauren and Owen if they got these messages during school hours, to text him and tell him. And then he would look at the recording. What is it? You know, the video. Video of the surveillance cctv. The cctv.

[Shane]

Closed caption television.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes, the surveillance video in the school to see if they could see if any students were texting at that time. Texting at that same time. I believe teachers were aware of what was going on. So they were also on the lookout of any students that look like they were texting at odd times. I mean, I feel like the principal really made an effort to help these kids.

[Shane]

Yeah, it sounds like it.

[Emily Simpson]

And, you know, they also made the suggestion of taking the phones away from the kids. And then the parents were like, this is their lifeline. This is how we get a hold of them.

[Shane]

Why wouldn't. At what point would you just change your phone number to at least have that? Now, had she. I know. Had she. I know what you say. Had she changed her number, the mom would know. But why wouldn't. Did they change the number? Because that would be my thought if it was my kid.

[Emily Simpson]

No, because I. That was a question that was asked of Jill, who is Owen's mother, and she said that they felt like it would be fruitless to change his number because his number was always in group text with other kids and they would have decided.

[Shane]

Who said that?

[Emily Simpson]

Owen's mother. Jill.

[IBM Advertiser]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

Not Lawrence.

[Shane]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Kendra.

[Shane]

I was like, well, of course the criminals. And be like, no, don't change it.

[Emily Simpson]

No. It was Owen's mom that said she didn't think. They never. Well, that.

[Shane]

That's crappy. Sorry. That's crappy. You're like, oh, it's an inconvenience in our group chats. So what?

[Emily Simpson]

It wasn't that it was an inconvenience. It was that he'll. His number would end up with all his friends and group chats again. So this person who's inside this group would just end up with the number anyway because because they were so convinced that it was just one of their friends, they didn't know who, so they felt like changing the number would just be pointless.

[Shane]

Which is true, because the mom would have gotten the new number right.

[TJ Maxx Advertiser]

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Everybody knows Shaq, but off camera he's just a regular guy.

[Shaquille O'Neal (Shaq) Speaker]

People never believe me when I say I'm just like them. I take out the trash, do dishes and I struggle with moderate obstructive sleep apnea or osa. And a lot of adults with obesity. Obesity also struggle with moderate to severe osa. You know those scary breathing interruptions during sleep, the loud snoring, choking and daytime fatigue. I knew I had to talk to my doctor. Don't sleep on the symptoms. Learn more at don'tsleeponosa.com this information is.

[Shaquille O'Neal (Shaq) Voiceover]

Provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

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Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures.

[Emily Simpson]

Despite the school's best efforts in trying to track down the student responsible, they got nowhere. And this is when they decided to bring in the sheriff, Sheriff Michael Maine. And this is in January of 2022. The sheriff came to the school and questioned 10 high schoolers and parents that could be related to the case. But again, he got nowhere. At this point, the bully began texting a girl that Owen was seeing at a different high school and a different town. That's very interesting and very significant because I think we'll have to. We'll talk about that again later. But even after Lauren and Owen break up, so they're not together anymore, Owen is now dating a girl he met somewhere, I don't know, through sports or something that goes to a different school. She's in a different town. That girl starts getting bullied by the cyber bully and that girl's mom starts receiving.

[Shane]

How did she get those numbers?

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know, but somehow she did and she's bullying those people now. So was there any suspicion towards anyone else other than just these kids at the the school? In early February 2022, Craig Wilson, who is Chloe's dad, he's a police officer, texted a tip to the sheriff and he said, honestly, Mike, I don't know if you know Kendra or not, but you really need to be cautious. There is a pretty good part of me that thinks that she may very well be doing this. So that was interesting. But it didn't really go anywhere at that point, the be school secretary Diane Fussman told Principal Boyer. She also says she also suspected Kendra, which Boyer, this is the principal, found implausible. The secretary stated, quote, I always thought she was a little obsessive, obsessive with her child. My gut told me this just isn't one of our kids. However, when Sheriff Mike Maine asked the McKinney's if Kendra would be capable of such a thing, they immediately turned the theory down. And remember, the McKinney's is Owen's family.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

And these two families were very close. Even though I don't know, I think it's kind of weird when there's like a relationship in the seventh grade because to Me, I wouldn't. As a parent, I wouldn't want to be facilitating a relationship. My daughter is in the seventh grade.

[Shane]

So is mine. Oh, yeah?

[Emily Simpson]

Really? You have a daughter in the seventh grade? Let me rephrase that. Our daughter is in the seventh grade. If she comes home and has a boyfriend, I am not going to entertain into that.

[IBM Advertiser]

That.

[Emily Simpson]

She's young. She's 12. I'm not going to be asking about him. I'm not going to be taking her to his games.

[Shane]

You're going to download the pinger app.

[Emily Simpson]

I'm going to download, and I'm going to harass him, not her.

[Shane]

Put an end to this.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes, but I just think it's. I don't know. You're a dad.

[Shane]

Don't you think when it's too early.

[Emily Simpson]

Don'T you think when you want to.

[Shane]

Hang out, hang out in groups.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

Mix and mingle. That's all great, but I mean, do you really want the added pressure relationships? Like, I mean, forget the fact that they're young, but.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

But no, thank you.

[Emily Simpson]

It was very much. Kendra was very into their relationship, and she was always taking photos of them together. And then, you know, having Lauren, she.

[Shane]

Fueled off of their. Their relationship. Right.

[Emily Simpson]

Well.

[Shane]

Because then she got to get in the middle of it.

[Emily Simpson]

Right? Right. So I don't know. I just think it's weird when parents become so obsessive. Obsessive or integrated or they try to.

[Shane]

Be the cool parent. Right?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane]

Like, come over here. You can drink as long as it's in my house.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, it's weird. I mean, they're young and they're in the seventh grade, and it's like she's taking Lauren to his games and she's planning family trips when he has a.

[Shane]

She's gathering intel. She's gathering intel. She's like, what's he wearing now? What are they doing now? Because I'm gonna bully them on that, and I'm gonna bully them on this.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, but. So these two families were very tight. They vacationed together, they traveled together, they went to games together. They did all these things together. And then they became even more close during the whole COVID 19 shutdown. I guess they had their own little bubble where they were hanging out a lot. So when Jill, who is Owen's mom, was asked if Kendra could be the one sending the text, she said, absolutely not. There's no way.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Though local law enforcement and the school were trying their best to solve the case, they were getting nowhere. Jill and Kendra were relentless. So law Enforcement finally asked an FBI affiliated task force to step in and investigate. Officer Brad Peter was assigned to the case. Now, it's interesting to me that Kendra, in the beginning, when you're watching the documentary, and if you don't know anything about the ending, it makes sense that Kendra would be so involved in the case because she's the mother. So you're thinking, okay, this mom is involved and asking questions as she should be, calling the police and asking where they are in the investigation and wanting to be involved with the FBI and going to.

[Shane]

Have you caught me yet?

[Emily Simpson]

Yes.

[Shane]

Am I a person of interest?

[Emily Simpson]

So, but now that you know it's her and you look back at all these things that she did, it's, I mean, clear to me at that point that she's staying on top of it as much as possible so that she knows where they're at.

[Shane]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

And how far they've gotten and how much knowledge they have and how close they are. And then maybe she. She's an IT person.

[Shane]

Oh, well, there you go.

[Emily Simpson]

That was her undergrad. So her undergrad had something to do with computers and I t. And then I believe her career path. She coached at this high school, but she also worked in IT and worked in like, cell phones or something. And so she clearly has a more intimate and professional knowledge of how all of this works. And she used it to her advantage while also, clearly, while also embedding herself into this investigation so she could tell exactly where it was at. So Officer Pete Bradley is the FBI person that was assigned to the case. He acted quickly, knowing that burner apps only held on to new subscriber records for about two weeks. Jill McKinney was asked to send him the cyberbullies latest phone numbers daily. During this time, Jill started picking up on strange signals from Kendra. Months after their children's breakup, Kendra kept prying into Owen's love interest and asking if he was dating Chloe. In mid May, the bully sent a text to Lauren that read, quote and in all caps, kill yourself now, bitch. A week after this text message, Officer Peter got a hit on a. Well, first, what he did, and I read this more detailed. He, he. He figured out that the messages were coming from a pinger app. So the first thing he does is he sends a search warrant to pinger Pinger then returns the information and it shows up that these IPNs are related to a Verizon phone.

[Shane]

So they're, they're cooperative.

[Emily Simpson]

They're cooperative. Then after he gets that information, he sends a search warrant to Verizon and then Verizon returns some numbers associated with these. Okay, so it was a very, I don't know how long this took, but it was a very convoluted search warrant type of situation where he had to do pinger first and then he had to do Verizon. So then once they get the information back from Verizon, they're cross referencing these numbers, these phone numbers with all the kids in the contacts list. Right. And they're not getting any hits.

[Shane]

No, because it's not a student.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. So a week after this text message, the one saying kill yourself now, Officer Peter got a hit on the Verizon IP addresses that he was digging into, and he found that only one number had matched his records and it led back to Kendra Lakari. So that's when they know and I know. I. In the documentary, maybe I read it because I did a lot of research outside the documentary, but I think initially he thought this can't be right because this is the mom. So they, they kept, he kept cross referencing. Right. And it just kept coming up that it was her number attached to her. So on August 10th of 2022, Sheriff Maine appeared at Sean's mother's residence, where Sean, Kendra and Lauren were residing at the time. Now I. There is a Cut article out there if you want to read it. It's super long. I read it twice. It goes into detail about this whole situation, the saga. It's way more detailed than the documentary is. The documentary takes you through the timeline. But this article written by the Cut, it's very detailed as to things that happened, conversations that took place, you know, and when they go to arrest Kendra, I couldn't, I, I was confused whether she and Sean were together or they were separated. I know they were having financial problems. And you find out a lot when the police officer shows up. And apparently the house he shows up to is Sean's parents home, which I believe they were probably living there maybe for free because they had lost several other homes, they had been evicted, they had foreclosed on, and all these financial things that kept happening. Kendra kept telling her husband it was because of scammers, and he was clearly believing her. He. It was like, oh, well, our house foreclosed on us because someone stole my identity and stole our money or, you know, I couldn't pay these bills and, and the, you know, the storage unit where all your tools were got taken away because someone scammed us. And it was just scam after scam is, was her excuse where clearly we know now that she's just, she's not a victim. She's a pathological liar. The sheriff had a search warrant and approached Kendra outside of the house while Lauren was in the backyard and Sean was at work. The confrontation was captured on body camera footage and is featured in the Netflix documentary. After Kendra admits to the crime, the sheriff calls Lauren into the house to discuss everything. However.

[Shane]

Okay, so she admits when they approach her.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane]

Body cam footage, she confesses.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, sort of. I found this whole situation really frustrating. I'm gonna read you what the officer says.

[Shane]

Okay. But at this time, when they're approaching her, they're approaching her as a suspect.

[Emily Simpson]

They're. They're approaching her. Well, they have a search warrant to get her cell phones.

[Shane]

Right. Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

So she's not being arrested at this time. They're approaching her as basically like, we know you did it. We have a search warra. We need your phones. But. And I like to give grace to police officers. I'm not in that position. I don't know what that's like. And maybe I feel like maybe when he went to talk to her and to. He has a search warrant and he's going to get the phones. Maybe his approach with her was more of a soft approach to get her to confess, most likely because he never actually is direct with her. And I'll, I'll read you the conversation.

[Shane]

Bad cop a little bit.

[Emily Simpson]

And I feel like he's playing a very good cop role so that she feels a rapport.

[Shane]

Well, that. And it's easier to do that. And then she hands over the phone rather than you have to tackle her and arrest her for not cooperating with the warrant and then take the phone. You know what I mean? So you want someone to comply.

[Emily Simpson]

So this is what he says when he walks up. I'm going to start the conversation. You guys have been under a lot of stress recently. Some moves going on, some financial issues and everything else going on. Mom got wrapped up in some stuff and she didn't start it it, but she will continue it. So we have found some evidence and have a search warrant. We're going to take her phone and stuff. Sometimes when we aren't thinking straight, we do some things that aren't right. Like, I, I, it's just, there's never.

[Shane]

No, that's, that's like cops always, when they interrogate, they always say, you're not a bad person. You just made some mistakes. Now tell us where the bodies are.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane]

You know, I mean, it's like, yeah, because you got, you want cooperation at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what the cop says. If he says you're not a bad person, that's not going to be used in jail or in a courtroom or anything like that. So they say whatever and the opposite is true. They'll lie to you as well, right? To get you to confess.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know. I just. I was so. When I was watching that scene, I was just. I was frustrated because I wanted him to explicitly say, you were the one. We know you were the person texting your daughter. We know you were the cyber bully. But like, he never says that. It's a very.

[Shane]

That's how you are. You always want to just confront and just yell at someone right then and there. And that's. That's patience, lady. Patience.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay? He's giving me reunion tips right now.

[Shane]

I'm giving you life tips.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay?

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[Public Investing Advertiser]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities. Completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member finra SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures.

[Emily Simpson]

All right, so then the officer calls Lawrence. Also, by the way, I noticed this and I saw a lot of other people talking about this. When they go inside this house, they're behind them or behind the counter, there is like 8, 000 bottles of alcohol.

[Shane]

Empty.

[Emily Simpson]

Like I don't know. I don't know if they're empty or full, but it's like. And I'm not talking like beer bottles. It looks like a full on like, like bar. Yeah, like a liquor.

[Shane]

Just like bevmo.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, it's like a bevmo in her living room and. Or in the kitchen area. And I'm like, what is going on back there? But that's just an interesting point.

[Shane]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

That I felt like I should bring up. Okay. Anyway, then the officer asks for Lauren to come into the house. Now here's my other question. They are about to tell Lauren that her mother is the person who has been cyber bullying her for two years and told her to kill herself and called her every name under the book and made fun of all her insecurities and said bang, bang, dead, suicide, kill yourself, skank, hoe. And sent sexually explicit like disgusting text messages about BJ's and all kinds of stuff. Okay, so this is what this child, child has been dealing with for two years. I just felt like in that moment.

[Shane]

That wasn't the way to do it.

[Emily Simpson]

That wasn't the way to tell her no.

[Shane]

She should probably have family members around, right?

[Emily Simpson]

Like her dad. They called her dad Sean.

[Shane]

He's an innocent.

[Emily Simpson]

He doesn't know any of this. They Call him and tell him to come home. So he's on his way home. He has not gotten there yet. And I just felt like.

[Shane]

I just waited a little bit.

[Emily Simpson]

I felt they should have told.

[Shane]

She's a minor, too, right?

[Emily Simpson]

Yes.

[Shane]

They should have told the father.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

And then. And then let him tell her.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. Or.

[Shane]

Or they wanted the reaction. They're like, oh, I gotta see this. No, I want to tell her. No, I want to tell her. I'm gonna tell her.

[Emily Simpson]

I. I don't know. I just. Just. I just felt like that wasn't the.

[Shane]

Right way to do it.

[Emily Simpson]

It was just a really tacky. And I don't know if Lauren And. And again, this is what annoys me again. When he tells Lauren, he uses very vague language. So I don't even know if I.

[Shane]

Mean, like, he doesn't want to be direct. Like, he's. He's dancing around the issue.

[Emily Simpson]

This is what he says to Lauren. We're gonna take her phone and stuff. Sometimes when we aren't thinking straight, we do some things that aren't right. Your mom doesn't want this to get out, but it is some public information, so it's not going to not get out. I want to be honest about that. All right. Like, this is.

[Shane]

Yeah. No, I don't know what that means.

[Emily Simpson]

So when Lauren's sitting there next to her mom, her mom is hugging her and crying, and Lauren is just sitting there, and she has no emotion on her face. And this is what the police officer says to her. And I've heard so many people say, why isn't she mad? Why isn't.

[Shane]

Because she doesn't know what the heck's going on.

[Emily Simpson]

And in my mind, I'm thinking, does she even understand what this officer is telling her?

[Shane]

No, I wouldn't. By what you were reading, I wouldn't know what that means.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

Yeah. He was dancing around the issue. I mean, we already said he shouldn't have told her anyway in that forum, but if he was gonna tell her, it'd be like, hey, we found the catfish. She's sitting right next to you, hugging you.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. But I. It's two things for me. Either one, Lauren's reaction is based on the fact that she did not understand exactly what was going on and what he was insinuating. Because there is no direct language saying no is the cyber bully that's been sending you these texts. We have evidence. We found out it's her.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

So there's. There's nothing direct that. And we're talking again. About a child or two. If she does understand somewhat what he's talking about, I feel like she's been traumatized for so long that she was just disassociating.

[Shane]

Yeah. And there's no. You could ask her to list a hundred people who she thought it might be and it wouldn't be her mom.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

So then here you are dancing around the issue, kind of making light of it or not being direct. And then all of a sudden she's supposed to put all that together and think it's her mom.

[Emily Simpson]

Right?

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Then the dad shows up and he comes, well, first of all, I don't remember exactly what he said, but someone could tell me if you watch it recently. But I, I found this really interesting. When the dad shows up, he gets out of the car, they have the body cam footage of him. They're talking to him before he goes in the house. They tell him that it's his wife. He's shocked by it.

[Shane]

Yeah, no kidding.

[Emily Simpson]

Shock, shocked. They also tell.

[Shane]

That's the footage I want to see.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. They also tell him that not only is she the cyber bully that's been, you know, bullying his daughter for two years, but that Kendra has been lying about having a job and she hasn't been working. She's been telling her husband that she works for like a Ferris university.

[Shane]

And what does she do with the paychecks? These supposed paychecks.

[Emily Simpson]

That's what I'm saying. And that's why they've gotten evicted.

[Shane]

Try as an excuse for everything.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, she hadn't had it. She had not worked for a year. She had been let go from her job. She had told her husband that she had gotten a higher paying job and she was working at it.

[Shane]

But if I didn't work for one day, you would be like, what's going on?

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, yeah, I would go immediately, like, I don't know, Sean.

[Shane]

If I didn't get a paycheck in the mail or direct deposit, you, you'd be on top of that.

[Emily Simpson]

They talk about it in this cut article that I was referencing. They go deep, deeper into this relationship and their financial problems. So Sean worked at he like, changed oil at a auto place, one of those, you know, like probably fast places and whatever it's called, quick lube or whatever, you know what I'm talking about? But anyway, Kendra was supposedly the breadwinner because she had this IT background. But I'm thinking, how were they even managing? How, first of all, she had three cell phones. How was she paying for three cell phones?

[Shane]

Well, the thing. The thing isn't his job. The thing is, if they're dependent on the two. If they're a two income family and she only has one like.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

You'd question even more if finances are an issue.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know why he didn't question it more. I don't know why he didn't ask to look at things. I don't know why he couldn't pull up bank records or ask for something that showed him her work deposits being made. I tell you, I. You. You have a job. I'm on the case. I am on the case. I want to see the checks, I want to see the deposits. I want to know exactly how much money you're making and bringing home. I don't understand this whole, whole. Well, Kendra has a job and she's taking care of it. However, we've been evicted four times in the past year and I lost all my tools because the. We didn't pay the storage fee. And dang. I mean, poor guy, he just seemed to. I think maybe he was just checked out in that marriage.

[Shane]

Is this their only child?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. They only have the one daughter. When Sean comes up and the police tell him, not only does he learn that his wife has been bullying his daughter, but he also learns that she hasn't been working for a year and she got fired and she's been lying about everything. And he says something to the cop. I don't remember the exact thing, but when they tell him that she's the one that's been cyberbullying the daughter, he says something to the effect of, are you going to arrest her? And. And the way he said it made me think he. He wanted her to be arrested.

[Shane]

Okay, get rid of this woman.

[Emily Simpson]

Like, the way he asked was like, so you're gonna arrest her? Right? Like. And I just thought that was. That was interesting. I don't remember exactly what he said, but the sentiment was like. Like, so. So you're here to take her away. Right?

[Shane]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

So anyway, Sean walks into the house and he's livid, obviously, and he's. He's telling Kendra she needs to get out, she needs to take her stuff and go. And he tells her to call her parents and have her parents come get her. And he says, I can't do this right now. I don't want to talk about it in front of.

[Shane]

Wait. So they. So they said, no, we're not going to arrest her. And then he goes in and kicks her out?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know if they said no or yes at that moment.

[Shane]

Well, they didn't arrest her.

[Emily Simpson]

They didn't arrest her because they get.

[Shane]

So he says, go. Go live with your parents.

[Emily Simpson]

Hurts. No, he does. He walks in and he says, I don't want to be around you, and you have to leave, and you've been lying and you're not working, and I thought you were working. He's more. Really. Honestly, the questioning of his wife is more about the jobs and not working, as opposed to the cyber bullying. So I saw a lot of people making comments on Reddit about how they didn't like that he was more focused on and that she wasn't working and she'd been lying about having a job as opposed to what she'd been doing to their daughter.

[Shane]

Well, maybe it's just more like. Like you're this fake. Fake person in this household overall.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

With your job and the way you're. You're hiding and. And pinging my daughter or whatever it is.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. But I did. I did think that the way he handled it was mature because he did say, this is going to escalate, and I don't want it to. So you need to call your parents and have your parents come and get you, and you need to go somewhere else.

[Shane]

Yeah. We need to eliminate.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane]

We need to take you out of this equation.

[Emily Simpson]

And I felt like that was a mature, safe way for him to handle it. Handle it at that moment and to be away from her. Also, they don't say in this documentary or not whether they ended up divorced, because I'm like, surely he divorced her after this. Right. And I couldn't find a lot.

[Shane]

Yeah. You asked me to look it up. I remember that.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane]

At least. No, you didn't ask me to look up. You just kept walking around the house forever wondering how if they're married or not. So I was like, I'll just look it up. Finally.

[Emily Simpson]

No, I didn't. Did search, and I did finally find.

[Shane]

Yeah? What'd you find?

[Emily Simpson]

I found articles that confirmed that he did divorce her.

[Shane]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

And he got full custody of Lauren.

[Shane]

I hope so.

[Emily Simpson]

Right?

[Shane]

I mean, and their financial statements. Hers was just a big zero.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. I mean, there's no money to divide up, so. Right.

[Shane]

No. No house, apparently. No tools, nothing.

[Emily Simpson]

No. I mean, his truck got repossessed, too, or his car, whatever it is that he drove was repossessed as well.

[Shane]

So he's. Yeah, he's good to get rid of her.

[Emily Simpson]

My question to you as a dad, if you found out that let's Say Annabelle went through two years of cyberbullying because she's the same age.

[Shane]

And I found out it was you.

[Emily Simpson]

And then you found out it was me.

[Shane]

My. I. I'd have the same thought. Are you going to arrest her?

[Emily Simpson]

Really?

[Shane]

Please take this woman away from us.

[Emily Simpson]

I assume you would divorce me.

[Shane]

Yeah, of course.

[Emily Simpson]

Oh.

[Shane]

Oh.

[Emily Simpson]

You didn't even have to think about it. Not even like a. Let me just see. Hear her side of it.

[Shane]

Well, the first. Those wouldn't be the first thought thoughts. My first thoughts would be my daughter, what is going on? Why are you doing this? You know, like, why would probably be the big question.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. Which we will get into because I think it's important to discuss the why.

[Shane]

Oh, do we have an answer?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, I think there's a lot of different theories. So what was Kendra's reasoning for doing this? So per her interview in the Netflix documentary. You know, I think I've seen other people that didn't like that the documentary gave her a voice, but I thought that that was. That was good. I mean, you already know she's a monster. It's really.

[Shane]

And she's already in jail.

[Emily Simpson]

She goes to prison. She gets 19 months in prison.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

That's it.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, that's it. But you already know by the end of the documentary what a horrible, horrible. I don't. I can't even think about it.

[Shane]

Horrific.

[Emily Simpson]

So the fact that the documentary maker allowed her to come in and tell her own story, regardless of whether you like what she says or not, it makes for good, good TV for this woman to see.

[Shane]

I would want to pick her brain and know what was going on.

[Emily Simpson]

So Kendra told.

[Shane]

I mean, they do that all the time. They always interview criminals.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. I think a lot of people found her so repulsive and so disgusting that they felt like she shouldn't have even been given a platform to even try.

[Shane]

Her sensing should also require like no phone self cell phone usage for like 20 years or something.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

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Provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and let you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member finra, SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures.

[Emily Simpson]

Kendra told detectives that she did not send the original batch of messages that the that the kids received back in October of 2020, but rather she just fed off of it and began to send them herself in September of 2021. She says she got caught up in sending the messages and that it just continued. Kendra claimed to have started her own texting campaign to try to catch who was allegedly harassing her daughter in the first place. Well, that's an excuse. It's basically like, remember those first round of messages that came through? But she's like, oh, I started harassing her and sending messages with the second round because I was trying to, you know, figure out who it was. Like, someone would reveal themselves or. Or something. I mean, it doesn't really make sense.

[Shane]

It'd be like, if there's 5, 000 messages that she sent her daughter and she's like, hey, but those four I didn't send, it's like, well, who cares?

[Emily Simpson]

Right? Right.

[Shane]

Damage is done.

[Emily Simpson]

She claims I was sending messages in the hopes that they might send something back, saying, is this so and so. She says in the series, I started with the thought, we need some answers. And then it just kept going. Then Kendra said the trauma that she experienced as a teen fueled her desire to protect her daughter from harm at all costs. She claims, allegedly when she was 17, that she was raped. And as my daughter was hitting those teenage years, I got scared. Very scared. I didn't want her to go through that process that I did. And I think that really led me to not knowing how to handle things now.

[Shane]

You know, not buying it.

[Emily Simpson]

I'm not buying it either. I feel like that's just some retroaction.

[Shane]

She just turned it back on to.

[Emily Simpson]

Her type of experience.

[Shane]

I wanted to be a good mom, and I was, you know, I had trauma, but I just wanted to be a good mom, and I didn't know how to do it. Now she's turning it back on her.

[Emily Simpson]

You know, I thought it was really a brilliant comparison that the principal made when he said, said it's Munchausen by computer or whatever. He said Munchausen by Internet. Internet. And we. If you think about Munchausen syndrome, if you don't know what it is, it's basically the root of the Gypsy Rose Blanchard case. It was the mom that was pretending that her daughter was sick. And the reasoning for her doing it, I don't know. It was to get attention. It was to get money.

[Shane]

Intention could be attention, money, feelings, time, recognition. Or, you know, recognition like, you're a great mom. You're taking care of this sick child, right?

[Emily Simpson]

So that's called Munchausen by proxy. It actually has a different name now, but at that time, it's Munchausen by Proxy. Because the Munchausen is when you pretend yourself to be sick for attention.

[Shane]

I think now it's like fictitious disorder of another or something.

[Emily Simpson]

But Munchausen by proxy is when you pretend someone close to you, like a daughter in this case is sick, and then you feed off of that because you get attention. And I don't know if that's. I think it really. Munchausen by proxy sounds exactly like what Kendra's doing, because she's not. She's not making her daughter sick, but she is. She's stressing her daughter out.

[Shane]

Well, she's making her daughter a victim of something. Yeah. And then everyone has.

[Emily Simpson]

And then everybody's rallying, crowding around her.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

And giving them attention and all these things. Things. The behavior often feeds on itself becoming addictive or compulsive, according to patients. Clearly, Kendra was addicted to this. I mean, there's no doubt in my mind that whatever.

[Shane]

She could even hold the job. She was just doing this 24 7.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, I think she lost the job before she started doing it. Or maybe she lost the do job because she was doing it. I don't know of the exact timeline there, but she clearly didn't have a job. So she had all day to send these messages to think about what she was going to say to. To. To follow these kids around, to be in the school parking lot, to. To coach all these different things so that she's highly involved in the school and all these kids. So these ruses are easy to do on the Internet. We were talking about this last night when I said they've. Now. They've said that now there's a Munchausen by Internet now that they use that term. Because now with the digital age, it's easy to get attention, sympathy, by pretending.

[Shane]

Like going into a chat room or something and. And. Or creating a website saying, I'm sick and go fund me and all this.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. Like, if anybody's watched Scamanda, that's another one. If you know anything about that, that's a girl that fakes cancer, sets up a website and goes to great lengths to. To con people into thinking she has cancer. And then she takes hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations. So, I don't know. I mean, it's. It's interesting because they do talk about Kendra's personality a lot. They interview her cousin and then some of the other moms, and they talk about how she had this innate need all the time to be the center of attention. Like, she was always dancing in front of cameras and always talking about her daughter and always being everywhere. And so I don't know. I think she suffered from something that made her feel like she had to have all this attention all the time.

[Shane]

How's the daughter doing now? Was there an update? Like daughter and father?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. What I've read is Lauren's doing well. There's actually, if you watch the documentary.

[Shane]

She got a new phone number.

[Emily Simpson]

She has a new phone number now. New phone. She's with her dad. They have a very close bond. They do hunting and sports and all this stuff together. He seems like a great dad. I have to give that guy a lot of credit.

[Shane]

They probably can now build a relationship that they couldn't before.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

Difficult to do before.

[Emily Simpson]

Now when you watch the documentary, there is Lauren when she has on Pink, that was filmed about two years before. So this is. And then there's Lauren in a gray hoodie. That's when she's like 18. So there's two different versions of Lauren in the documentary. And when you see the Lauren when she's interviewed in Pink, she's very meek, very timid. She doesn't have a big, strong personality. She still claims to love her mom and wants to see her mom and wants to be around her mom. And it doesn't really make any sense.

[Shane]

Fast forward two years later.

[Emily Simpson]

They don't really say that what the time frame is. They don't give that away. But when they show Lauren in, like the gray hoodie, that's the Lauren. And that's the most.

[Shane]

That's more. More today. Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

And that seems to be the Lauren that looks to me as if she's processed through it. She understands what her mom did. She understands how horrific it was. She's pulled away from her. She hasn't seen her. She. She says that she's kind of ready to see her when the time is right, but that's not now. So she seems to be more, I don't know, mature about control of what's going on and understanding more of, like, how horrible her mother was and what she did to her. Another reason that people think impressive that possibly Kendra did this was because she was actually obsessed with Owen. So through the Netflix documentary, it. It doesn't dive much into this theory. And that's probably because in order to get people to participate in the documentary and to give interviews, they probably don't dive into things that people are uncomfortable talking about. And. But the cut article proves that many signs lead to this. And the McKinney family believes this story to be true too. Too. After Lauren started dating Owen, Kendra would come along too. At every opportunity, she would ask them to wrap their arms around each other for photos and she would turn them into presents for Owen. Kendra signed up to coach Owen's track team. I thought that was odd. Not her daughter's track I figured she.

[Shane]

Just wanted to keep going around so she could have something to harass her daughter about.

[Emily Simpson]

I think she was obsessed with Owen.

[Shane]

She's probably. Well, she's a nut anyway. Who cares? Put her in jail. Lock her up.

[Emily Simpson]

At a volleyball match. In August of 2021, Owen and Lauren sat apart from each other. Their relationship was extremely strained at this time due to the cyberbullying. And Lauren started getting texts from her mother, who could see them across the gym, not sitting together. And this is what she said. This is the text messages. Sit next to him. Answer me. Come here. Now I'm pissed. Move your ass now. Now I am fuming. Pissed off. This is is ridiculous. Answer me and move your ass.

[Shane]

Like next to Owen?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane]

Jeez.

[Emily Simpson]

As the cyber bully, Kendra sent sexually explicit text messages regarding Owen. He wants sex, BJ's and making out. He doesn't want your sorry ass. It is obvious he wants me. His attention is constantly on me. Not sure what he told you, but he is coming to the Halloween party and we are both dtf. You know what DTF is?

[Shane]

No. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Do you?

[Shane]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes. Down to have fun. And as the cyber bully, Kendra harassed Owen's girlfriend that he was seeing after he and Lauren broke up. I think I. You know, you can break it down all day long. At the end of the day, I don't know the real reasons. It probably was to get attention. It probably was some type of Munchausen syndrome, which would drive Lauren closer to her mom because she being cyberbullied. I think Kendra was obsessed with Owen. There might be some kind of weird thing there. I mean, that's not unheard of.

[Shane]

None of those theories mitigate.

[Emily Simpson]

Right?

[Shane]

The criminality and the immorality of what she did.

[Emily Simpson]

Exactly.

[Shane]

None of it.

[Emily Simpson]

Just before we end this episode, because we've been talking, I could talk forever about this. I could just sit here and analyze Kendra all day long. But there are some other points that I wanted to just ask or just discuss us, you know? She was only charged with two counts of stalking a minor and two counts of communicating with another to commit a crime.

[Shane]

Why not like parental abuse or something?

[Emily Simpson]

Then she ultimately cut a deal and pleaded guilty to two counts of stalking a minor in exchange for the other charges being dropped. She was sentenced in April of 2023 to a minimum of 19 months in jail. My question is, and I'm not. I don't know the answer, but I don't understand why she wasn't charged with child abuse. Abuse.

[Shane]

That's What? Yeah, that's what I was wondering.

[Emily Simpson]

I mean, I went to Michigan's statute for child abuse. And I mean, a person is guilty of child abuse if, you know, they cause serious physical or mental harm.

[Shane]

Was there a trial or did she plea?

[Emily Simpson]

She plead.

[Shane]

It might have been part of that.

[Emily Simpson]

And they. And everybody went to her sentencing, but she. No, she was never initially charged with child abuse. I'm saying the d. A. In the case, like, never charged her with child abuse. And I don't understand that other than maybe he was just trying to be sympathetic to a mom and daughter.

[Shane]

Or. Or maybe before the charges were oppressed, they. They had discussions and it was.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. I mean, she did. She isn't. She did go to therapy, and she did take parenting classes. Oh, good for her. Yes.

[Shane]

I'm sure she's turned a new leaf.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. I'm sure. Maybe that was part of some initial conversations. You know, I don't know that she would do those things. So while Kendra was in prison, she was constantly in contact with her daughter, trying to continue their relationship like normal. During that time that she's in prison, Kendra also wrote back to Lauren. Her name's Lauren Smiley. She's the one that wrote this article for the cut. And from the article, Kendra thanked me for seeking her side of the story and said she'd be ready to talk after her release. But then she never replied again. However, she did send an email, and this is what the email said. I found this email interesting because I felt like, again, it's just typical Kendra. She says to this is the person that wrote the cut article. I do ask that you truly think about the kids. Kids that are involved in this situation, including my daughter, who is trying to move forward and has a bright future ahead of herself. These stories are doing additional harm to her. I can handle.

[Shane]

Words are powerful.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. I can handle the pain, but she cannot and does not deserve it. She is moving forward with life and doesn't deserve to be put in the spotlight anymore or having people thinking her mom is a villain as that is very hard mentally and emotionally for her. So I don't know. I read that email and I was just like, are you kidding me? Again, It's. It's just. What a narcissist. Kendra was released on parole and is on supervised released until February 8th of 2026. We do know that Sean divorced her and received full custody of Lauren. And Kendra is living with her parents near Detroit and reportedly has even less contact with her daughter than when she was in prison. I think I Think that has a lot to do with what I said about Lauren, where I feel like she's now matured and has maybe a better grasp of, of the actions that her mom took and doesn't want anything to do with her. But we'll see. We'll see what happens. I don't know. I don't, I don't know how you ever repair a relationship like that.

[Shane]

I would say you don't.

[Emily Simpson]

I mean, I'd hate for a mother and a daughter not to have a relationship, but in a situation like that, I don't know if a daughter could ever have a normal, functioning, healthy relations relationship with a mother after something like that.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

And the, and the text messaging went on for so long.

[Shane]

Oh, yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

And it would have gone on for the rest of her life, probably. Mom let it and was so methodical and so thought out.

[Shane]

Yeah, it was. And it was first degree.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. I mean, it's not.

[Shane]

You just can't not like, oh, I got caught up.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

Or oh, I was initially trying to help and then it turned into this. It was just, it was just, just bad from the beginning. And there's no good reason for her to have done what she did. None.

[Emily Simpson]

This is just one last little thing that I learned from the. The Cut article that they didn't put in the documentary, which I find interesting. So I feel like we'll just end the episode with this. At the Wilson's last Halloween party. Now remember the Wilsons is Chloe Wilson, the girl that she was trying to frame. It's her parents that have this annual Halloween party every year. The mom, Tammy, dressed a scarecrow in a prison jumpsuit and had a mask of Kendra's mugshot on it with cell phones clutched in its gnarled hands. At one point, she pondered gathering friends in Beal for a big watch party of the documentary. Then she changed her mind. Maybe it would be too emotional to relive this whole thing again. Maybe best she said to just watch it as a family.

[Shane]

Nice.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. So there you go. That is the saga of Kendra Licari and, and the catfish mom.

[Shane]

So she will not be nominated for mother of the Year?

[Emily Simpson]

No, she's not going to get that nomination. But anyway, thank you guys so much for listening again. If you have any other cases that you would like us to dive into, I'm thinking that since we're going to do weekly, I'd like to do the Delphi murders. So if you have any thoughts on that, please let me know because I'm not sure if they have the right man, and I'd love to dive into that deeper and discuss that with all of you. So let me know your thoughts on that. And thanks so much for listening.

[Shane]

Thank you.

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[Public Investing Advertiser]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures.