Stop Saying Gretchers (RHOC Recap)

Summary

Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge

Episode: “Stop Saying Gretchers” (RHOC Recap) — October 12, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, guest host Erika Jayne joins Teddi Mellencamp for a lively and reflective recap of the latest “Real Housewives of Orange County” (RHOC) drama. The duo weighs in on the ongoing conflicts among the cast, the “Gretchers” controversy, and notable events like Heather’s Trevor Project fundraiser. With humor and honesty, they balance personal life updates with sharp opinions on housewife antics, group dynamics, and why some apologies are overdue.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Health Updates and Personal Reflection

• Teddi's Cancer Update

  • Teddi shares the big news: she is officially cancer-free, though she reminds listeners she can’t say she’s “in remission” until after three years (03:47).
  • “I am cancer free. I’m still on immunotherapy, but I am feeling so much relief.”
    — Teddi Mellencamp (03:47)
  • Erika responds with explicit relief and joy, discussing the emotional toll on friends and family (04:31).

• Erika’s Wellness Journey

  • Erika describes her stem cell treatment trip to Panama with John, calling it one of the best experiences of her life (08:09).
  • “Dates and holding hands and walking around the old city of Panama… so lovely.”
    — Erika Jayne (08:46)

• Navigating Relationships Post-Adversity

  • Teddi discusses reconnecting and keeping her romantic life casual to prioritize her healing (06:16).
  • Both reflect candidly on the unknowns and possibilities of their next life chapters, emphasizing the need for peace and self-compassion (09:12).

2. RHOC Recap: Confrontations, Rumors, and “Gretchers”

• Katie, Gretchen, and Slade Controversy

  • Recap kicks off with the dramatic Tamara-Katie sit-down. Teddi was “hoping Katie was going to bring more” (11:37).
  • There's skepticism over Katie’s honesty regarding her knowledge of rumors from Gretchen and Slade (12:03, 13:40).
  • Erika: “The problem is there’s a kernel of truth in here. But which one is it?...There are holes in this story.” (13:46)

• Thoughts on Tamara Meeting with Katie

  • The hosts agree they’re unbothered that Tamara met with Katie, since she’s still a housewife and the meeting was about clearing the air rather than stirring up new drama (17:00).

• Apology Accountability

  • Teddi and Erika feel strongly that Katie owes apologies to multiple cast members—not just for the original rumor, but for involving outsiders and bloggers (24:01, 24:42).
  • Erika: “When you start going out and saying things that we’re not supposed to be saying and dragging other people in, now you’ve muddied the waters.” (25:03)

• Gretchen Accused of Stirring the Pot

  • Teddi notes Gretchen won’t admit her role as a “shitster,” attempting to deflect by referencing decade-old articles and blaming Slade (26:08–26:43).
  • Both hosts are tired of recycled drama from years past: “I don’t care about 2017…I’m tired of that.” — Erika Jayne (25:43)

3. Notable Segment Recaps

• Emily’s Innocence Center Fundraiser and the Exonerees

  • Both express admiration for Emily’s advocacy: “She’s using her legal education for something that’s really good...It can happen, and believe me, it’s rough.” — Erika Jayne (14:17)
  • They reflect on the heartbreak of wrongful convictions and the resilience of those exonerated (45:50–47:20).

• Heather and Terry’s Trevor Project Fundraiser

  • The hosts praise Heather and Terry’s $50,000 donation and their visible support for their children (44:58).
  • “As much as we criticize the show, there are parents…that have really, you know, showed up for [their kids]. And that’s inspirational.” — Erika Jayne (45:13)

• Cast Dynamics and Friendship Tensions

  • They break down the emotional support (or lack thereof) between Tamara and her friends after Teddi’s illness (32:24–34:50).
  • Teddi singles out Gina’s empathy for Tamara’s struggles as a highlight (31:16).

• Animal Psychic Segment

  • Lighthearted moment as Teddi and Erika discuss Shannon and Jen’s visit to an animal psychic and Erika’s new dog, Rick (“a dog named Rick”).
    — (35:30–36:19)

• Clashes at Emily’s Fundraiser

  • Tamara avoids Gretchen and Slade, which both hosts agree was the right call (47:24–47:30).
  • Drama escalates between Gretchen and Tamara, with Gretchen shouting, “Run for your life, bitch!”—a moment both hosts found distasteful (49:07).
  • “I don’t like it when people call people trash.” — Teddi Mellencamp (49:13)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Moving Forward:
  “I want peace after these last five years, as I’m sure you do too…We both want inner peace.”
  — Erika Jayne (10:17)

• On Apology Culture:
  “If she’s smart and she looked back…she would see that she has some stuff to apologize for. But everybody’s different. You know how these personalities are.”
  — Erika Jayne (17:58)

• On Reliving Old Drama:
  “I don’t want to hear about 2017…Let’s stay in the present moment.”
  — Erika Jayne (25:43)

• On Male Housewife Involvement:
  “This is a show about women. This is not a show about your boyfriend and you.”
  — Erika Jayne (48:46)

• On “Gretchers”:
  “It drives me nuts how now more than one person calls her Gretchers…I don’t like Gretchers.”
  — Teddi Mellencamp (50:20)

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Important Timestamps

• Teddi announces she is cancer-free: 03:47–05:03
• Erika recounts Panama trip and stem cells: 08:09–11:01
• Tamara–Katie sit-down drama begins: 11:17–14:08
• Discussion of Kimo Sabe / Cowboy hats: 14:08–15:59
• Accountability and apologies segment: 17:00–18:44, 24:01–25:03
• Emily’s legal advocacy for exonerees: 14:17, 45:50–47:20
• Cast fundraiser and family support: 44:58–45:42
• Gretchen/Tamara showdown at fundraiser: 47:24–49:13
• Preview of Amsterdam cast trip: 50:38–51:16

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Final Thoughts & Tone

Teddi and Erika bring candor, warmth, and a little shade to their recap, mixing personal vulnerability with sharp RHOC analysis. They call out both the pettiness and the positives, advocate for more accountability and empathy among the cast, and keep the mood upbeat even as they express fatigue over recycled drama. Their sober reflection on personal hardships and support among friends stands out against the familiar backdrop of reality TV squabbles, ending with anticipation for the cast’s upcoming Amsterdam trip.

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Useful for listeners who missed the episode:
This summary recaps the episode’s main events, the personalities involved, and the shifting alliances and tensions in RHOC—seasoned with Teddi and Erika’s signature blend of real talk and reality TV sass.

Transcript

[Teddi Mellencamp]

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[Erika Jayne]

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[Erika Jayne]

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[Teddi Mellencamp]

Hi, guys. Welcome to another episode of Diamonds in the Rough with myself, Teddi Mellencamp.

[Erika Jayne]

Hey, I'm Erika Jayne.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Hi, Erika Jayne. What's new?

[Erika Jayne]

No, what's new with you?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Oh, no.

[Erika Jayne]

Tell it. Tell it. Tell it. Say it again. Say it again.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Oh, my gosh. Well, I am cancer free.

[Erika Jayne]

Fuck, yeah.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Cancer free. I'm not allowed to say that I'm in remission until after three years of no detectable cancer, but I'm cancer free. I'm still on immunotherapy, but I am feeling so much relief, I'm sure. Yeah. So much relief.

[Erika Jayne]

I mean, I am sure. So am I, as your friend, by the way. Just as the people around you like not to make it about us, but, like, we're relieved, too.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I mean, no evidence of disease.

[Erika Jayne]

Cool. Well, that has to feel like a. A weight has been lifted off your heart and just everything.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I mean, I can say I was doing all the things. I was praying. I was, you know, on my hands.

[Erika Jayne]

And knees, of course. Yeah.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Hoping. I was crying. I was laughing. I was doing all the things that I could possibly think of to try to get through it.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And being able to have this news is huge.

[Erika Jayne]

It's huge news.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

It's huge.

[Erika Jayne]

It's huge. It's like 1%.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah. When they said that one. You're part of the 1 percenter. I did.

[Erika Jayne]

You burst into tears.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I was numb.

[Erika Jayne]

Okay, I get that.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I was numb. Like, when the doctor said it to me, I was in the room at the doctor's office, myself, Edwin, and my dad's assistant.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And I said, like, I didn't. They both got emotional, and I was like, right.

[Erika Jayne]

Well, it's. I mean, Teddy's been through hell.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

Like, real hell.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Shock.

[Erika Jayne]

I would be, too. I'm sure that this is, like, it's. It's all overwhelming. Yeah.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

So I was in complete shock, but I'm really happy now. I'm still having those days of being emotional, but they're getting lighter and lighter.

[Erika Jayne]

How is it? Have you felt the inner. Have you felt. Excuse me. Have you felt the medication starting to kick in?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yes.

[Erika Jayne]

Good. Thank God.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah. So it's not necessarily that I'm not having anxiety anymore. It's that I'm not having, like, crying breakdowns.

[Erika Jayne]

That's good.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

You're more even.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I'm more even.

[Erika Jayne]

That's perfect.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

So that's kind of.

[Erika Jayne]

And I'm sure this good news really helps out.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

The good news really does help.

[Erika Jayne]

So you're going to tell me about the guy.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Oh, my gosh, I forgot. You met him before.

[Erika Jayne]

He was lovely.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I know. He's a nice guy.

[Erika Jayne]

He was. Remember? Because I met him right when all the shit hit the fan. Right after you got home from the hospital and started dating. And. And he was really kind. And then he went away for a while, but now he's back.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

He's back. We just started kind of talking again as friends. And, you know, we're just keeping it casual. I'm like, this. The only way I can do this is if it's casual.

[Erika Jayne]

Right.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I can't give more than.

[Erika Jayne]

Well, and you shouldn't, because, you know, you're really. You're going. I mean, your body, your whole life, like, everything is completely changed, and you. You can only give what you. You have. There are limits. Yeah. You have boundaries, like, and you need them.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And I'm like. And do you understand that? And he's like, yeah, I do. And you could have just said that before. You didn't need to end things completely.

[Erika Jayne]

Is that what he said? Oh. How'd that make you feel?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I was like, oh, yeah. Because I was. I mean, I was brutal when I, you know, I just ended it one day, like there was no discussion and I was just done.

[Erika Jayne]

Well, that's understandable. I mean, you're going through, like, the worst thing ever in your life.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah. But then, you know, I was like, okay, so this time around, you know, you can date other people. I can date other people. Let's just have fun. Let's see where it goes. It has to be casual. If you're not game for the following, then.

[Erika Jayne]

And he said, okay.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

All right.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

He said, okay. He's like, I'm just so happy that you're feeling good.

[Erika Jayne]

See, he's a. Guy's a nice. This guy's a nice guy.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I know.

[Erika Jayne]

He's a sweet.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

He's getting some help for his mustache that he had in the picture.

[Erika Jayne]

Oh, who gives a fuck? That's all the hell you're getting is for a mustache. Right on. You're doing something right.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

What about you? What about. What's the update on your life?

[Erika Jayne]

My life is really nice. I was in Panama last week and I received some stem cells at this incredible clinic called Origins. And they're doing some incredible work there. It was like, probably one of the best trips I've ever had.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

That's awesome.

[Erika Jayne]

In my entire life. Yeah. John and I went. He actually took me there. And first off, Panama's amazing. And Origins, the stem cell clinic, is unreal. So it was like two for one. And he and I had like, a. A really nice trip.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Like, dates and like, dates and, like.

[Erika Jayne]

Dinners and, like, holding hands and, like, walking around the old city of Panama and, like, it was so lovely.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Just be.

[Erika Jayne]

There was nobody there. Yeah, I was able to be and. And just sort of clear my mind. And I was really happy there. Yeah. Which makes me think, like.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

What does that say about sometimes?

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah. Like, is this. Am I doing all I can do around here? I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Like, I think the next chapter of, like, my life, certainly your life, I mean, it's up. It's really up for grabs. Yeah, it's really up for grabs. Like, I just don't know. Well, none of us really know, but I just don't know what's coming. And sometimes that's okay. And. But there are a lot of options, I guess, is what I'm really trying to say. A lot of options.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I know. And when we're going through options, and I'm sure everyone listening, when you're going through options, when you're going through changes, when you're deciding it, it can be tricky because we all want to be happy.

[Erika Jayne]

Yes, that's.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yes, that's the end goal. And sometimes we get stuck or lost trying to find that happiness.

[Erika Jayne]

And I was wondering if I. One of the questions I had and one of the things that he and I were talking about, I was like, if I've been pushing something that's, you know, pushing in my life, something that's just not right, you know, just like. And this comes back to the age old, like, what do I want out of this life?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

And what do I want out of the next few years of my life? What can I do? What makes me truly happy? And I want inner peace. I want peace after these Last five years, as I'm sure you do, too. You know, it's like, you know, we both want inner peace. We both want peace for different reasons, but. Yeah, I don't know. That's my.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And then did he come back here? Are you.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah, he's here.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

He's here.

[Erika Jayne]

Which is really nice. Yes. And then.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

So when do I get to meet him?

[Erika Jayne]

Probably next time he's out because he leaves soon.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Okay.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah. But you got. You will like him. He's very sweet.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I can't wait.

[Erika Jayne]

He's very sweet, man. I know. It's cool.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

That's good. I love hearing that.

[Erika Jayne]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

One of the best trips of your life. That's a big statement.

[Erika Jayne]

Very big, because I've had some good ones. And I looked at him and I said, like, I was there. I was like, this is one of the best trips in my entire life. He was like, really? I said, yes. This is amazing. Aw.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I love that. That makes me so happy.

[Erika Jayne]

Thank you. Well, I can tell that you really loved this episode. You know, what can we say? Okay, so it opens up with the tease of a. Tamara, Katie, sit down. Tell me immediate thoughts. Just your boom instinct. Go. What'd you think?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I was hoping Katie was going to bring more.

[Erika Jayne]

Okay.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

To the conversation.

[Erika Jayne]

More meaning, like, what is your definition of more? Just so everybody can.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I just felt like she came in and she was the same. I think she was emotional in general because of what was going on in the show.

[Erika Jayne]

Sure.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And so I think she came in not in a position of strength, not being able to speak the truth.

[Erika Jayne]

What is the truth, though? Because I'm confused.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I'm confused on the truth, but my guess is that, yes, Katie knew, and she knew from Gretchen and Slade.

[Erika Jayne]

Right.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And I think whatever else happened after that, whether she told Kiki, Monique, whether so and so told, no matter what.

[Erika Jayne]

That'S all water under the bridge. The important part is that she knew from Gretchen and Slade.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

She knew from Gretchen and Slade. And so I think Tamara got that out. But do you think the other women had a right to be upset with Tamara for meeting with her?

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah, everybody's entitled to their own feelings, but at the end of the day, look. Yeah, I mean, yes, yes, they have a right to feel however they want to feel, but it's also Tamara's right to do whatever they are on a show. And sometimes your feelings get pushed to the side, even if it's.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And correct me if I'm wrong, did Tamara even talk to her about anybody else? But what was Going on with her?

[Erika Jayne]

Not that I recall. But maybe somebody. No, not that I recall.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

So it's not like she was bringing the other women into it.

[Erika Jayne]

No. I did find it interesting, though, that Matt spoke to Slade or that how all of the text messages, like, I guess Slade was working Matt, Katie's husband. Working him and working him. And when I say working him, I mean contacting him over and over. And then all of a sudden, it was like, radio silence.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

You know, it's not the best look for Slade and Gretchen here. It's just not. And I don't particularly like Katie because I do think that she's not telling the truth here.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Not telling the truth. And you don't think that Gretchen and Slade told her or not telling the truth about a billion of the other things?

[Erika Jayne]

She has Billion of the other things. I think that there's a lot of things here. She. The problem is there's a kernel of truth in here. But which one is it? Yeah, you know, she's, you know, not 100% full of shit, but there's. There are holes in this story, you know? Yeah. Like, it is what it is.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Then Emily and Gretchen meet to look for cowboy hats for Emily's Emil, Emily's Innocence center fundraiser, and the exonerated Anthony.

[Erika Jayne]

Which was really touching. I really like Emily in this role because she's using her legal education for something that's really good. I mean, there are people that are wrongfully convicted, and it can happen, and believe me, it's rough. And I'm not saying that about my family, so don't get it twisted. I'm talking about other people. I think that it's wonderful that she does this. I was thinking that we might have been at the bootleg Kimo Sabe.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

That's what I was thinking.

[Erika Jayne]

Right. Are we at the bootleg Kimo Sabi? Who knew they had an OC location? Found out it wasn't. But, hey, Kemo Sabe, you've got a competitor in Orange county, and they have the same stuff, and I don't know what the price is.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I don't know.

[Erika Jayne]

We gotta get Kyle on it. Yeah, same motherfucking P. I mean, I.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Thought they were gonna do a Kimo Sabe in Beverly Hills.

[Erika Jayne]

They were.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I think I heard that.

[Erika Jayne]

Oh, my. Wait, is Kyle opening the store? Is she, like, gonna christen the store? Let me tell you, when I went with her this summer, when she and I went to her house and she took me to Chemo Savvy. Right? Because, you know, we had the Blowout years ago. And I put this. I don't know, what's it called, the thing on the hat. And I was like, oh, I'll take this one. And she goes, no, you won't. It was like a $5,000 thing. She's like, no, you won't. I was like, what's wrong with you? She goes, look at that tag. And it was good looking out. But it was funny.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I mean it.

[Erika Jayne]

Some of those Kimo sabi is expensive, y'. All.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Well, they also did a knockoff Kimo Sabe for at Alexis Bellino, and.

[Erika Jayne]

Oh, how'd that go?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Tamara said the wedding was nice.

[Erika Jayne]

Tamara went?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah, Tamara went.

[Erika Jayne]

Oh, my God. Was she the only one from the cast that went?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

She was the only one from the cast. Jo from season one was there.

[Erika Jayne]

Sure, whatever.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah, Heather was.

[Erika Jayne]

Oh, Heather got invited but didn't go.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah, she had something for her daughter.

[Erika Jayne]

That's okay.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah. So, you know, is what it is. But Emily downloads Gretchen about Tamara's spring fling. She says, Tamara left the room at least five times.

[Erika Jayne]

First off, Emily saying that Gretchen has on Prairie Wear or Oregon Trail. We. I mean, I liken it to that. What was that? Lds? That crazy guy with, like, the. The Mormon shit.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Oh, yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

I liken it that Prairie Wear, Oregon Trail Wear. Perfect. Emily. I love that.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I know. She made me laugh at that.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah, it was great.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

But I love the Tamara, I will never film again. And then the narrator. She did indeed film again.

[Erika Jayne]

I mean, here's the thing. Like, we have this on our show, too. The quitting and the walking off. And I've wanted to quit it, you know, inside, but it's. It's hard because then you're standing around waiting, and I don't know. What do you think about Tamara meeting with Katie?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I didn't. It didn't bother me.

[Erika Jayne]

Right.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

That she met with her. I mean, Katie was a housewife.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah. And we've all had to do things like this. It's kind of like it is what it is.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Katie was a housewife, so I didn't really have a problem with it. I just thought we didn't get much from it.

[Erika Jayne]

No.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

So that's where I was, like, what.

[Erika Jayne]

Were you hoping for?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I was hoping for, like, a real conversation from Katie, like, hey, Tamara, I am sorry. I spread the rumor that Gretchen and Slade told me. I apologize to you for that.

[Erika Jayne]

And.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

But it did happen, right? But there was none of that.

[Erika Jayne]

No, no.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

There was just the Gretchen side. But, like, Katie still has things to apologize for.

[Erika Jayne]

Of course.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Do you think she'll even know? Do you think she has the bandwidth to know that she should be apologizing for that?

[Erika Jayne]

If she's smart and she looked back at what was. If she watched the show, like maybe last season and these episodes. Yeah. She would see that she has some stuff to apologize for. But everybody's different. You know how these personalities are. Yeah. Some people can say, hey, I fucked up. And other people cannot see it, don't want to see it even when they're closest. Say, hey, you really should, like, take ownership of this. And, you know, always fascinates me. The people that you think would know.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

What to do in these situations. Like when you were on. Yeah. And one person would not admit that they had done something.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah. And you're just, you can't believe it.

[Erika Jayne]

You can't believe it. It's like, come on. Like, you know.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

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[Teddi Mellencamp]

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[Teddi Mellencamp]

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[Teddi Mellencamp]

I can't tell you how much I'm loving my new cashmere sweater. I will be wearing it a lot this holiday season and getting one for my daughter's slate. Find gifts so good you'll want to keep them with Quince.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Teddi Mellencamp]

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[Erika Jayne]

Blah and the endless sea of dupes Shopping used to feel more. Well, fun. But here's a confession Dirty Rush listeners, you can find that fun feeling again on ebay. It's not mindless scrolling, it's a fashion pursuit. I love using filters for condition and price saving searches and spotting verified listings. It makes shopping feel smart and exciting again. And when you score that rare Adidas Collab or that Dior saddlebag you've been manifesting, it's It's a rush. Ebay has millions of pre loved finds from hundreds of brands backed by ebay's Authenticity Guarantee. Ebay Things People Love Support for the.

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[Teddi Mellencamp]

I think Katie has some apology she needs to make to Emily. I think Katie needs to apologize to Tamara.

[Erika Jayne]

For spreading that rumor. For spreading that rumor, Emily, about the whole. The babysitting.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Babysitting.

[Erika Jayne]

The babysitting.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I don't know. I don't think she needs to necessarily apologize to Jen because I think Jen is a part of all of this with Gretchen and Slate.

[Erika Jayne]

She does play a part.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

Here's the thing. I would make a blanket apology if I were Katie to the cast for dragging in bloggers and dragging in other things outside of the show. Because this is where it gets sticky.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

Instead of keeping it in house and keeping it inside the cast, when you start talking to outside, you know, people, as innocent as it may seem. And I'm not. This isn't a thing about anybody. It's just that when you start going out and saying things that we're not supposed to be saying and dragging other people in. Now you up.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

You know, that's just the way I see it. You've muddied the waters. These people are not part of the show. They have their own things to do. They have their own accounts, they're running their own stuff. But when you're talking to cast members and you're trying to put stories out there and you're trying to do things like that, it always ends up splashing back on you.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

Meaning Katie in this point.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

But then when Emily tells Gretchen she's pissed at Tamara that she's meeting with Katie, Gretchen tells Emily she's a shitster. And Emily says Gretchen is the one who brought it up. Something defamatory about Tamara.

[Erika Jayne]

This is true.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

This is True. And then Gretchen pulls up an article from 2017.

[Erika Jayne]

This is really where I. At this point, I checked out. I was like, I don't want to hear about 2017. No, I don't care about 2017. I don't want the article. I don't care that it was Vicki. I don't give a shit. Let's stay in the present moment. Like, I just. I'm tired of that.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

I'm even tired that we're discussing that Tamara may or may not have made out with some dude. What is it, 20 years ago? I mean, it's.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

It's beyond me, but the fact that Gretchen can't even take. Can't even admit that she was shit stirring. Why can't she admit that?

[Erika Jayne]

Just say, yeah, I did it.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And yeah, I did it. I brought up the guy, and then I brought up, you know, the alleged that didn't happen affair. I also brought up the singing. I also brought up this. And then I tried to clean it up the next day when I wasn't tipsy. Like, why not just say, well, then.

[Erika Jayne]

She tried to throw it off on Slate. Yeah.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Then she tried to blame Slade.

[Erika Jayne]

Then she tried to blame Slade. And I wonder how that works out at home.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I wonder how. I wonder if the guys are gonna. Do you think the husbands are going to be at the rebound?

[Erika Jayne]

I know Andy Cohen. He'd love to have them over there. That's no shade to. To the boss, but he does love it when the husbands slash boyfriends get involved.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

But something else I noticed during this.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah, not you, but them.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

But here's the thing, Emily. You can't comment on Tamara running out of a scene and then run out of a scene.

[Erika Jayne]

Well, that's the thing, ladies. We need to stick it out as much as possible. Stop running for the hills. Just break down in front of us. Yeah, just, you know, I'm saying just right there. I've done it many a time. Embarrass myself, you know, for years. But.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Meanwhile, Tamara meets with Gina before Heather joins.

[Erika Jayne]

I actually thought, if I'm right, I thought Gina was pretty good in here.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I did, too.

[Erika Jayne]

I thought she was good in here. Yeah. I thought she was good at explaining it and keeping it all together. I liked Gina in here.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah. She says she understands that Tamara is struggling. And then Heather joins them and re explains to Tamara that she loves her and is sorry that Tamara's hurt. But she also calls Gretchen out. How hurt would you be if I said that I trusted you the least?

[Erika Jayne]

I would be hurt. Yeah, I would be hurt. But also I'd have to look at my behavior and say, what have I done to make these women feel this way? And you know, Tamara's not without some questionable.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Right. But the one thing that we can say about Tamara, she mainly. She's not making up.

[Erika Jayne]

She's not making up. She's just gonna nail you with it.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

She may nail you with it.

[Erika Jayne]

Right.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

So.

[Erika Jayne]

But I don't know. But I have to. But this is why you don't. It is hard to trust in these things. Yeah, it's hard to trust because it's not in anybody's best interest to keep a secret.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

But I can only kind of parallel it to I. Let's say you and Rinna.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And all of a sudden we're playing that game and everybody at the table sitting around talking about, who do you trust the least? And you said Rinna.

[Erika Jayne]

Oh, she'd be. She would be ready to kill me. She would be ready to kill me. And rightfully so.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Like, I'm.

[Erika Jayne]

I don't know how close. Well, here's the other thing, too. I don't know how close Heather and Tamara are, and I know they spent a lot of years together, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you're super tight on a show. You know, I don't know. I guess that's really a thing for them. And I don't know that we'll get that. I'm sure we'll get that at the. At the reunion. I'm sure that's going to come up.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah. For sure that's going to come up.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I mean, Emily saying it wasn't a shock to me.

[Erika Jayne]

No. And that's okay. It's the Heather part piece.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

That's more powerful than Emily. Yeah. Remember when Heather called Tamara a historical friend at the last reunion? And then we didn't even know what that meant. We had to look it up.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

Which means we have history. Not necessarily deep trust.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Right. But then it's like, as you continue on, out of all of these other women, that's who you trust the least? The one that you have the.

[Erika Jayne]

You know the most.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah. The one that you spend the most time with. Well, there's two ways to take that. There's two ways to take that. You know, you could look at it as like, you know. No, I don't. Or maybe, you know, That's why something like this is really hard to get a. You can get a reactionary judgment, which you can't get a full picture because we don't have it. Yeah, we don't have it.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

We don't have a full picture. And we also don't have, like, a real conversation between Heather and Tamara discussing their friendship.

[Erika Jayne]

No, well, we know that. Well, we do know that Tamara said, oh, I heard you were afraid of me, and shit like that. And so that's not the way to anybody's heart. No, that's not the way to get Heather to open up to you and say, hey, look, when you do these things, this is why I say, I don't trust you.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

Because Tamara. Because Heather's not going to engage Tamara like that.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

No. Whenever Tamara gets upset, whenever she gets to that heightened state, Heather retreats.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah. She's not gonna get. She's not gonna get messy like that.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

But I feel like this is the first time we see anybody like Gina. She's stepping in.

[Erika Jayne]

And I liked her here. Yeah, I liked her.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

She's having her back. She's saying, like, listen, I know you're going through a rough time. And regardless of what the rough time is about, which I think, you know, that's what's coming out a lot. If somebody is struggling, if they're struggling with anxiety or depression or whatever it may be, or regardless of the reason why, you have to have some empathy for that person.

[Erika Jayne]

You do. You have to give them a little bit of space. And you don't. It's not really up to us to point out who knows why people are struggling.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

Nine times out of 10, we don't know why we're struggling. I mean, at least my therapist tries to tell me why, Because I'm like, what is wrong with me? Well, yeah. I mean, look, when people are struggling, they're struggling, bottom line. Whether they say it's family or friends, whatever, it doesn't fucking matter. Give a moment of grace. I think that's important for all of us. And I do mean all of us.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

So one thing that I noticed, and it did stick out to me, was when Tamara said, my. My dear friend, meaning you, was fighting for her life. And she's saying this while she's explaining why she's, you know, distraught. How'd you feel about that?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I think that people handle potential. I mean, in a lack of better way to say it, potential death.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Different than others.

[Erika Jayne]

Okay.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And I think that, you know, Tamara felt. Tamara came and saw me a bunch of times in the hospital.

[Erika Jayne]

Right.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

She was there. And I mean, I. I was. I can't even remember those days. Like, not that. Not. Not that. I can't remember Tamara. Like, I mean, I can't remember anything about that time frame in my life.

[Erika Jayne]

Probably good.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And I'm probably good. But, like, also, I think it was probably really scary to see.

[Erika Jayne]

I know that Lisa Rinna told me and Kyle told me that it was, like, the hardest thing they've ever. One of the hardest things they've ever seen.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

So I think I had two women that I'm close to tell me, like, Erica's fucking terrible.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah. And so I think nobody understands, unless you were there, how terrible it actually was and the concern that she probably has. And I think that people assume that, you know. Yeah. Me and Tamara, we do a podcast together, blah, blah, blah. But before I got sick, we talked every single day.

[Erika Jayne]

Well, you guys were definitely on the road together, building two T's in a pod. And.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And then it all stopped. And then it was like she. You couldn't get answers. Like, you couldn't hear. You couldn't hear from me.

[Erika Jayne]

Well, also, she had to pick up the slack.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

You know, because her partner, you was in the hospital.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

And she picked up the slack and kept going.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And she did it well, and she did it for a long time.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And not one time did she ever make me feel, like, hurry back.

[Erika Jayne]

Oh, God, no.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Like, she was. She was a really true good friend.

[Erika Jayne]

Solid friend. Yeah.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

So, yeah, there are moments where I'm like, fuck, shit. You know, like, this isn't gonna look good for her. But I also know that I have other friends that saw me in the hospital and said it was the hardest thing they've ever seen.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

So I give her grace on that.

[Erika Jayne]

Okay. Well, I think that's important that you, who. The only person that matters in this conversation, has spoken out and given your opinion, you do have a very close relationship with Tamara. Despite what we may say here on this recap, and despite what people may see or say, I do know she was there for you. And it's important that people hear from you.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

Because they can attack her online all they want, but they weren't there. So just so long you're cool with it, which is the only person that matters. So. Yeah.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And then Jen and Shannon meet with an animal psychic.

[Erika Jayne]

I thought this was kind of fun.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Really?

[Erika Jayne]

Oh, come on.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I mean, I love the dog, Archie, but if I really wanted to see Cesar Milan's sister, speak to him.

[Erika Jayne]

Is that who that was?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

No.

[Erika Jayne]

Oh. Oh, well, shit, I thought it was her. Well, I mean, look, the thing is, like, we have a dog. Breaking news.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

You have a dog.

[Erika Jayne]

Kind of. Yeah. John got a dog. And then the dog is with us while John's with me. So. Yeah, we have this gorgeous Belgian male from, you know, he's a trained boy, so he's currently at my house.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Aw, what's his name?

[Erika Jayne]

Rick.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Rick.

[Erika Jayne]

Rick.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

A dog named Rick.

[Erika Jayne]

Listen, he's from Holland. They, you know, name them crazy names. But yeah, that's exciting. John came home with this dog and I was like, okay, great. No, I mean, it was exciting. Like, I was super excited for the dog. So we've been out buying shit for the dog. Look at my life. Cooking and dog things and vacations. Vacations. Who am I?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

What are you living the life around here?

[Erika Jayne]

I'm living a normal life.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

Because I'm gonna have to be co parenting this dog.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah, I heard the we there.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah, well, I said I would help.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

You said we got the dog.

[Erika Jayne]

Well, we did. Because it's at my fucking house and it's in my backyard, swimming in my pool and we are walking it around my neighborhood. Okay, so we. You're right.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I heard.

[Erika Jayne]

Okay. Picking up.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

All right, so we, we are picking up, right?

[Erika Jayne]

We are doing this. Oh, my God. And I agreed to co parent this dog, which I, I'm, I'm great. I'm happy about. I love it. Just wish I had more energy. Tired. Dog's amazing. And I. Yeah, the dog is awesome.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

How old's the dog?

[Erika Jayne]

Three.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Oh.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah. So he's, he's an intact male. He's gorgeous little boy. So cute little feisty little thing. Smart, though.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Well, I'm happy because you've been wanting a dog for a while.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah, it's been. You know what's interesting? Rick came to my house Exactly. Almost two years after my dog Tiago died. Kind of interesting. I know. And feisty little personality.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Feisty, feisty.

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[Teddi Mellencamp]

Then we get. I know we already talked about it, but this in the actual show. Then we get to where Tamara meets Katie. Katie tells that. Tells her that Gretchen said Tamara drugged her. And Slade said, tell Katie to stick to the story. Tell her not to waver. That's the nail in the coffin. Because it'll cause a legal issue.

[Erika Jayne]

Really bad guys. Like, this is bad shit. I mean, somebody lost their job in Atlanta over this. Just like, you know, she was drugged. And.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And then Katie texts Gretchen. I will. I will swear on my life not to bring that up.

[Erika Jayne]

And Katie was trying to cover for Gretchen.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah, I. And, yeah, and I mean, in this moment, I like that Tamara took it upon herself to meet with Katie, despite the cast not wanting her to.

[Erika Jayne]

Well, she has reason. I mean, Gretchen's over here fucking her shit up.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah, Gretchen's over here making all kinds of allegations and bringing up shit from years and years ago.

[Erika Jayne]

2017, to be exact.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

2017.

[Erika Jayne]

I don't even know what happened in 2017.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I don't even know what year it is right now.

[Erika Jayne]

Well, it's 2025. Almost 2026. And since. I'll say this. You know what? Since January of 2020, you and I have had the fucking worst five years of our lives. Slade got her. Well, it started when the guy got murdered in your house. The Airbnb house. Slade's finger got chopped off. Dove was born. She had to wear the helmet. Then.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I mean, the neurosurgery.

[Erika Jayne]

I mean, the whole. And then my life blew the fuck up. Then we all had Covid. I got a divorce, got broken. You know, all these lawsuits. You.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah. I mean, it just. It keeps going on and on. Could you imagine we could do a show just on our last five years and it'd be more interesting than all of this.

[Erika Jayne]

I'll be honest with you. Our five. You and I's combined last five years. This is like standing still. But anyway, back. Back to this riveting story. Yeah. I swear on my life. Okay. Heather hosts a fundraiser, a fundraiser event for the Trevor Project with Junior Cookies. Here's the thing. Shout out to the Trevor Project. Longtime supporter of the Trevor Project. Even before I was on the show. They do awesome work. Yay, Heather, for being over there.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And Heather and Terry donated $50,000.

[Erika Jayne]

As they should.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

Because when you make it like that, that's what you're supposed to do with it.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah. And it shows how important their kids are to them.

[Erika Jayne]

Yes. Yeah.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And feeling supported.

[Erika Jayne]

And I think that that. Look, as much as we criticize this show and as much as we, you know, criticize the show, there are parents like Terry and Heather that have children that they have really, you know, showed up for. And that's inspirational and for others, I believe. And just like Emily and Jake. And just, you know, being there for your kids is important, no matter what. What's happening in the family.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah. Then Emily meets with the exonerees through the Innocence center to hear their stories, and she asks what they may need after they get out.

[Erika Jayne]

Insane.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

20 years from murder you didn't commit.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

20 years from murder you didn't commit. And then somebody said something like, I didn't go through and get any sort of nothing.

[Erika Jayne]

They just turn you loose.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah. Like, he's like, I didn't think there was a need for me to get.

[Erika Jayne]

An education because the guy that was in for 15 years, the one that she works with.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Oh, yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

I mean, no, he was 15 when he went in or something like that.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah. And then he didn't get an education because he didn't think he was ever.

[Erika Jayne]

Going to get out.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And it made me so sad when they said, like, oh, you know, I thought just my mom was going to handle it.

[Erika Jayne]

That was the one I was speaking of. Yeah. How or how could I be in two places at one time?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

But what really is, like, who prosecuted that case? These cases.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I know. Well. And then when Emily gave us the statistics. The statistics.

[Erika Jayne]

Because there's a hundred thousand people.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

A hundred thousand people wrongly convicted. Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

That's it. I mean, look, I know that like our justice system is, whether you believe it or not, the best in the world. But, like, that is just fucked up.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Well, then the.

[Erika Jayne]

Then they shout out to these people that are. And Emily and, you know, the exonerees for pulling it back together. Because that is not easy to have your life taken away from you like that.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And then for that many years.

[Erika Jayne]

Oh, my God.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And then showing up.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And trying to change your life.

[Erika Jayne]

That's right.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah. That's hard.

[Erika Jayne]

It's really hard.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Then at Emily's Innocence center fundraiser, Tamara avoids Gretchen and Slade.

[Erika Jayne]

I would do.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yep. I would, too. Then Emily tells the woman she's pissed that Tamara met with Katie.

[Erika Jayne]

Okay, everybody, you're entitled to your opinion, okay?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

But I'm. I'm a little. I still am a little bit confused. Why is she pissed?

[Erika Jayne]

I don't know. You know her. What do you think?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I don't know why Emily's so pissed. Maybe she's pissed because she wanted her to never be on the show again.

[Erika Jayne]

That's out of her control. You see what I'm saying?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

Now you're. Now you're wanting things you can't have, which is. I'd like to never see some of these hoes again. But guess what? They popped back up.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And guess what? You'll keep seeing them. But.

[Erika Jayne]

And there ain't shit I can do about it.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

So they have this event. The event's going well. Ish. And then as Tamara's leaving, Gretchen says she and Slade are going to find out exactly what Katie had to say from Tamara. And Shannon says that Slade should not be involved. I agree with Shannon here.

[Erika Jayne]

I agree with Shannon. Shannon, 100% agree with you.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

This should be Tamara and Gretchen. Not Gretchen. Slade and Tamara. See, Eddie wasn't there.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I know, but then Eddie was having to walk out with them because, like, it should have just been Gretchen walking over and having conversations.

[Erika Jayne]

Absolutely. This is a show about women. This is not a show about your boyfriend and you. I'm sorry. I keep saying this over and over. Like, I agree. Shannon was 100% correct here.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

And then as they storm over to Tamara, Tamara says, no, I'm not doing this, and walks away. And Gretchen screams, run. Run. Run for your life, bitch. Yeah, I didn't like that.

[Erika Jayne]

But I also didn't like Tamara calling them trash, which you've said you don't like it when people call people trash.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah, I don't like.

[Erika Jayne]

I don't like it. I don't like this. Run, run. Run for your life.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Run for your Life. And like, what. What is she running from this information from 15, 20 years ago? Yeah, I. I don't think so. I think she just wants to be away from you.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah, I just think that I. It feels like Tamara's really overwhelmed this season, you know, starting way back in New Orleans. Right?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah.

[Erika Jayne]

So whatever's going on with Tamara, because she usually sticks shit out, right? Yeah, right, about that. Well, for whatever. Whatever. I mean. Well, she said whatever reasons are happening, but, you know, run, bitch, run. Run for your life, bitch. It's like, oh, come on, Gretchen, you're better than that.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Then Emily even steps in and tells Gretchen she was too aggressive. They start screaming at each other. And the event.

[Erika Jayne]

I like it when Emily gets seated. I'm not going to lie.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah, Emily gets seated, she tells her she's being too aggressive. I mean, other than it drives me nuts how now more than one person calls her Gretchers.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah, I know you don't like Gretchers.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I don't like Gretchers.

[Erika Jayne]

Yeah, that was. You would probably get aggressive if some. If somebody said Gretchers in front of you. I don't like the word Gretchers.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I don't like the word Gretchers. But I mean, overall, this episode, I think it's. It's leading us into the cast trip.

[Erika Jayne]

Right? Which is in Amsterdam.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Right.

[Erika Jayne]

So what is the big blow up on that thing? Wait, so Katie's not going?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Katie's not going.

[Erika Jayne]

Okay, so does Gretchen go on this trip?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

She must. Yeah, she must go on the trip.

[Erika Jayne]

Does Tamara go?

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah, Tamara goes on the trip.

[Erika Jayne]

Geez.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Tamara goes, and to my knowledge, stays.

[Erika Jayne]

Okay, that's good. That's good. She didn't leave.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Yeah. Okay, so I don't know. I mean, we may be dealing with Tamara and Gretcher's the rest of the season, or it could rotate to somebody else pissing somebody else off. Who knows? It always switches on a cast trip.

[Erika Jayne]

Oh, wait till you see ours.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I can't wait. Thank you guys for tuning in to another episode of Diamonds in the Rough. We'll be back next week to recap the next episode.

[Erika Jayne]

That's right. Thank you for listening, everybody. And I'm really happy for you, Ted.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

I'm happy for you guys.

[Erika Jayne]

I. Shut up. Shut up. We. We got this, dog. God, I'm dead.

[Teddi Mellencamp]

Oh, God, she's actually blushing.

[Erika Jayne]

Oh, shush. Maybe once in my life, I am. Yeah. What can I.

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[Erika Jayne]

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[Erika Jayne]

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[Erika Jayne]

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[Teddi Mellencamp]

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