The Andrea Canning Interview

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Two Ts in a Pod – The Andrea Canning Interview

Podcast: Two Ts in a Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge
Host: iHeartPodcasts
Episode: The Andrea Canning Interview
Date: November 4, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation with Andrea Canning, acclaimed Dateline reporter, examining the Crystal Rogers disappearance case and broader themes in true crime reporting. The hosts revisit the Rogers investigation, discuss the complexities of circumstantial evidence, and invite Canning to provide her seasoned journalist’s perspective on this case and others, delving into the intersection of crime, community, and media interpretation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Crystal Rogers Case: Timeline & Investigative Hurdles

[02:28–28:49]

• Crystal Rogers, 35, mother of five from Bardstown, KY, disappeared July 3, 2015. Last seen with boyfriend Brooks Hauck at the family farm.
• On July 5, Rogers' car was found abandoned with a low tire, keys, purse, and phone inside.
  • Emily: "She would never have left her car like that because the tire...wasn't completely flat. It was low." (07:00)
• Suspicion grew due to Brooks Hauck's lack of concern and inconsistent timeline.
  • Shane: "He doesn't seem too concerned when he wakes up and she's not there." (06:09)
  • He was questioned but evasive, and during police questioning, accepted a call from his brother Nick Hauck—a police officer—who was suspected of interfering with the investigation.
• Crystal’s father, Tommy Ballard, became a determined investigator; he was fatally shot in 2016, in what is widely believed to be connected to Crystal’s disappearance.
  • Emily: “He became an investigator himself. He spent every single day investigating what happened to her.” (12:23)
• Bardstown has a history of unsolved high-profile cases, including the prior murder of police officer Jason Ellis, with suspected links to the Rogers coverup.

2. Evidence and Prosecution Challenges

[19:32–29:39]

• FBI became involved in 2020, conducting targeted searches at the Hauck properties and new constructions.
• Significant circumstantial evidence emerged, including:
  • Testimony suggesting a $50,000 payment for Crystal’s murder.
  • New evidence (e.g., a suspicious blanket in a police vehicle, covert family conversations).
  • Substantial, but not definitive, physical evidence: “There’s no smoking gun in this case.” (29:34)
• Three major indictments: Brooks Hauck (convicted for murder and tampering with evidence, life sentence), Steve Lawson (conspiracy, guilty), and Joseph Lawson (moving evidence/vehicle, 25-year sentence).
• The court ruled for separate trials, moving proceedings out of the original county due to local influence and publicity.

3. Community, Family, and the Challenge of Closure

[35:47–37:10]—Andrea Canning Interview Starts

• Crystal’s remains have never been found.
• Canning emphasizes how the family remains convinced Brooks Hauck and others know the location, but refuse to share information even at sentencing.
  • Andrea: “During sentencing was like, ‘Tell me where my daughter is.’ And they just, you know, crickets, like, they just will not say.” (36:07)
• Rumors in the community suggest various disposal methods, but none substantiated. Investigators and the FBI believe Crystal could be "anywhere" due to the family’s extensive properties.

4. Are the Crimes Connected?

[38:08–41:59]

• Discussion moves to the suspicious deaths of Crystal's father Tommy and officer Jason Ellis. The community is convinced they’re related.
  • Andrea: “If you talk to a lot of people in the community and use common sense...the majority of the community believes that they're connected.” (38:19)
• Official law enforcement has not confirmed a connection but acknowledges community suspicion.

5. True Crime Media, Investigative Journalism & Notable Cases

[42:19–67:39]

• Canning shares her approach to storytelling and the challenges of reporting on unresolved or highly circumstantial cases.
• The hosts and Canning discuss the Karen Read trial:
  • Media’s tendency to shift public opinion.
  • Reasonable doubt as a realistic barrier to convictions even when common sense might suggest otherwise.
  • Andrea: “When you start going down that rabbit hole...you’re like, maybe she didn’t, maybe she did…” (44:41)
• Other cases touched upon:
  • Delphi (Liberty German and Abigail Williams) murders—Canning participated in field reporting, expressing skepticism about some elements of prosecution and the investigative missteps.
    • Andrea: “When you stand there and you look at that bridge...it is terrifying.” (55:25)
  • Ellen Greenberg “suicide”—debates over likelihood of the self-inflicted wounds.
    • Andrea: “How do you stab yourself herself that many times and behind your head?” (63:13)
  • Sandra Birchmore case—another suspicious apparent suicide with law enforcement involved as suspect and Canning’s reporting role.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Suspicion of Brooks Hauck:
  Emily: “First thing, anytime some boyfriend or husband just says, I don’t know, she just vanished...That right there is a huge red.” (06:14)
• Police Interference:
  Shane: “He’s accused of warning Brooks not to speak to police and he is later fired from the Bardstown Police Department for interfering in the investigation.” (11:22)
• Family’s Unresolved Pain:
  Andrea Canning: “That was the one thing, you know, during sentencing was like, ‘Tell me where my daughter is.’ And they just, you know, crickets...” (36:07)
• On Community Theory of Linked Crimes:
  Andrea Canning: “Common sense...the majority of the community believes that they're connected.” (38:19)
• On Reporting & True Crime Fascination:
  Andrea Canning: “I did this appearance...They asked...Did you...Actually, to the point where my dad found this book that I had written at 8 years old...that was called Murder Mystery, and there was a knife dripping blood...” (34:12)
• On the Karen Read Case:
  Andrea Canning: “So it’s kind of one of those ones where, like, you understand why the family feels the way they do...and then you understand why all these supporters think she didn’t do it.” (45:16)
• Regarding Her Dream Interview:
  Andrea Canning: “I used to want to interview O.J. and I wrote him for 10 years in prison. And he called me right after he got out...I wasn’t expecting that one.” (58:22)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Case Timeline & Background:
  [02:28–13:44] — Origin, relationships, disappearance, and initial police investigation
• Tommy Ballard’s Investigation & Death:
  [12:23–15:12]
• Police/Evidence Issues & Indictments:
  [19:32–26:38] — FBI involvement, property searches, co-conspirator information
• Trial Outcomes & Sentencing:
  [26:38–29:44]
• Andrea Canning Interview & Insights:
  [32:48–68:21]
  • [35:47] — Family’s anguish and the search for Crystal
  • [38:08] — Are the Bardstown deaths connected?
  • [42:19] — Canning on journalism ethics and notable cases (Karen Read, Delphi, Ellen Greenberg, Sandra Birchmore)
• Broader True Crime Reflections & Canning’s Career:
  [58:21–62:45]

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The Tone

The podcast flows between measured, methodical case breakdowns and lively, personable exchanges. The hosts and Andrea blend empathy and lived realness—using phrases like “common sense,” “red flag,” and “bizarre”—with the structural rigors of investigative work and legal process. They seamlessly inject humor and asides, especially when swapping stories from real life and the world of reality TV, making the dense subject matter accessible and engaging.

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Summary for New Listeners

This enhanced episode of Two Ts in a Pod is an essential listen for true crime fans seeking an accessible yet authoritative deep dive into one of Kentucky’s most disturbing unsolved mysteries. The hosts expertly walk listeners through the Rogers case, then hand off to Andrea Canning, who gives a practiced reporter’s viewpoint and draws connections across true crime’s most perplexing cases. With quotes, memorable stories, and professional insights, this episode illuminates both the emotional and procedural complexities that consume families and communities long after a news cycle has ended.

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Transcript

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[Andrea Canning]

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[Shane]

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[Andrea Canning]

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[Andrea Canning]

Hi guys.

[Shane]

Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunette. I will be your host today, Emily Simpson with Shane Today. We are very excited because we're going to have a very special guest coming on later, I would call her the queen of true crime. If you follow true crime at all or you watch Dateline, you will recognize the name Andrea Canning. And she's going to come on a little later with us and we're going to talk about today. It's a case that comes out of a little small town called Bardstown in Kentucky, and it is the disappearance of Crystal Rogers. Now, I have to say I did not follow this case and it was not on my radar. Even though it received a lot of global attention and media attention, it was not one of those cases I followed. But I have done the best I can to research. So we're going to give you, you know, a brief overview of the case so you guys can, can get to know it. And then we're going to ask Andrea some more specific questions. I'm sure she has a lot more detail about the case. So. Crystal Rogers was a 35 year old mother of five children from Bardstown, Kentucky and was reported missing on July 5th of 2015. She was last seen by her boyfriend, Brooks Hauck on the night of July 3, 2015 at the home they shared. Two days later, Roger's car was found abandoned along a parkway with a flat tire. Her keys, purse and cell phone were still located inside the car. The discovery of her car quickly raised suspicions of foul play. The case took a darker turn in November of 2016 when Crystal's father, his name is Tommy Ballard, who had been actively searching for his daughter, was shot and killed while hunting on his property. His death remains unsolved, but it is widely believed that he, that this murder is connected to Crystal's disappearance. Years pass with very little progress, but In August of 2023, the FBI made a significant breakthrough. As of 2025, Crystal's body has still never been located. So let's go back and start with the timeline of this case. So we're talking about the 4th of July weekend of 2015. Brooks Hauck was reaching out to Crystal saying, let's have a romantic type of date night right at their family farm. This is at the Hauck family farm.

[Emily]

Right.

[Shane]

Hauck is the boyfriend, Hauck is the boyfriend. And also the Hauck family. It kind of reminds me of the Murdoch family because from what I've read, this h family is they're, they have a lot of land. They have a large farm with a lot of land. They own a lot of rental property. I believe he owns like 70 something properties. He also does construction and builds homes. So I think they're a very affluent, well, Known name in this very small town.

[Emily]

Right.

[Shane]

So the last time Crystal Rogers was seen alive with her then boyfriend, Brooks h. Was on July 3, 2015. H then told investigators they were at his family farm together with their son Eli, and that they left together that night. He said when he woke up the next day, she was gone. And Eli, the son, who I think is like toddler age at the time this happened, their son. They share their son. They share a son together. She has four other children from other previous relationships, but they do have the one son together. And Brooks claims that he woke up the next morning after they went to the family farm the night before, and he said she was gone. He also claims that the night before, the last time he saw her, he went to bed around midnight, and she was playing on her phone is what he claims. But the thing is, he doesn't seem too concerned when he wakes up and she's not there. And then I remember in an interrogation or a questioning by the police, this is Detective Jon Snow. When he questioned him, he was saying, well, where was Eli? And he said Eli was in bed with him when he woke up. So he wakes up, and he claims that the. The baby's in bed with him, the mother's gone. And he doesn't find that strange.

[Emily]

First thing, anytime some boyfriend or husband just says, I don't know, she just vanished. She didn't take her purse. She didn't take her wallet. She didn't take her kids. She just disappeared. I mean, that right there is a huge red.

[Shane]

Well, he didn't say that. He claimed that he just thought she was with her cousin who was a close friend of hers.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Shane]

I believe her name was Sabrina.

[Emily]

Okay, so so far, he has reason to think she just left early and went somewhere.

[Shane]

Yes.

[Emily]

Or at least that's his story.

[Shane]

That's his story. So on July 5, 2015, Crystal's mother, Sherry Ballard, reports her daughter missing after she cannot reach her that same day. Crystal's car is then found abandoned along the Bluegrass Parkway. Her keys were in the ignition. Her phone and purse were still in the car, and the car has a flat tire. Although we did see an interview with the dad and the brother, and the brother and the dad were both claiming that she would never have left her car like that because the tire you could still drive on, it wasn't completely flat. It was low.

[Emily]

Remember that he's done that before or something where she'll drive as far as she can to get somewhere safe.

[Shane]

And I think that's just females in general, because I would do the same thing.

[Emily]

I tell my kids that I say we can buy a new wheel.

[Andrea Canning]

Right.

[Emily]

If it means your safety.

[Shane]

Right, exactly. So I can't imagine if the car is still functioning and the tire is not completely flat, that you wouldn't just continue on until you got to a parking lot or somewhere safe. Not just abandoning a car on the side of the road, leaving your purse, your cell phone.

[Emily]

That's where her purse and everything was left. Right.

[Shane]

So. July 8th of 2015, Brooks Hauk is brought into the the police station and is questioned by Detective John Snow. He's also named of a person of interest at this time. I actually watched this. I don't know what you want to call it. You want to call it interrogation, questioning, whatever. You know, the thing that I think is the most interesting is when someone can't really answer precise questions about times when someone has disappeared when they're not sure. And I, I, it felt like the detective was like, well, did you leave it this time? Oh, sounds good.

[Emily]

Also not even making an effort to try to recall, like trying to put the pieces together.

[Shane]

Right. Like it was just like, yeah, that sounds good.

[Andrea Canning]

Sure.

[Shane]

Maybe like that. Yeah, probably about that time. Right. And also the red flag is claiming that they were at this family farm and that they were and that he had, you know, lit a fire. He said he burns a lot of things at this farm and he had the son with him and she was there too. And they were there for a long span of time. He claims, however, it's like mud, cold and rainy that day. So I don't know how you're out at a family farm with a little child and you're out in the rain and the mud and you're there for a long period of time.

[Emily]

Not typical behavior.

[Shane]

So then during this, this is also interesting. So during this questioning, around 7pm he gets a call on his cell phone. And I, and I watched this interrogation or questioning, whatever you want to call it. His cell phone rings and he says to the detective, do you mind if I answer this? And the detective says, my co conspirator.

[Emily]

Sure like to pick up?

[Shane]

I would like. Sure, go ahead. First of all, I can't imagine if I'm in a police station across from a detective being questioned about the disappearance of my significant other, that I'm like, excuse me for a moment, can I please take this call? But he does.

[Emily]

Well. And detective might have let him take the call knowing it.

[Shane]

Oh yeah. So anyway, it's his brother Nick's, Nick Hauck, who Is a police officer at the Bardstown Police Police Department. Department. This. If you guys have the opportunity, just Google it. Google this. This interrogation, this questioning. You have to watch this phone call. It's the most bizarre phone call to me. Because if you called me and I picked up during, you know, this questioning and you're telling me things, my responses on the other end would be like, okay. Huh? Okay.

[Emily]

Restate everything.

[Andrea Canning]

Yes.

[Emily]

But everything's like, okay, where do we put the body?

[Shane]

Okay. So he's like, so you're telling me I shouldn't answer question? Like he's. Everything he's saying is like, so.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay.

[Shane]

So just so you're saying all will show blood, right? So that I, I should get up and I should walk out and leave. It's just so bizarre to me, this conversation incriminating myself.

[Emily]

Right.

[Shane]

And so he hangs up with his brother and he's like, that's my brother, he's a police officer. He's telling me that you guys are going to screw me and that I need to leave so I'm not going to answer any questions anymore.

[Emily]

He doesn't trust cops.

[Shane]

He doesn't exact. So I guess at that point the questioning ends and then you know, Nick Hauck, who's a police officer, then they know about this, right? It's right there. I mean, so then his chief of.

[Emily]

Police or whoever, now he's on their radar, right?

[Shane]

Now he's on the radar. They go to him and they're like, why would you not answer questions? You need to go down and answer this detectives questions immediately. So then you get video footage of them questioning the brother. The brother can't remember anything. He doesn't know anything. He can't recall.

[Emily]

Doesn't like I pick up this phone.

[Shane]

Call, he has no idea my brother.

[Emily]

And he's telling me not to answer anything.

[Shane]

He can't recall anything. He doesn't know what the two brothers did together after she disappeared. They, I guess they have video surveillance of like the two of them leaving together. He doesn't know where they went. He doesn't know what they're doing, claim.

[Emily]

They were drunk or anything.

[Shane]

He doesn't remember anything. He gets fired.

[Emily]

Well, yeah, he has no memory. He can't get cop without a memory.

[Shane]

Right. He's accused of warning Brooks not to speak to police and he is later fired from the Bardstown Police Department for interfering in the investigation.

[Emily]

You know, it is interesting though because just because he's a police officer doesn't mean that his brother can't plead the fifth can't have an attorney and must spill everything. But I think there's some. I don't know, I just figure with police officers there's something where if there's an investigation, they either can't get. Can't meddle into someone's business, you know, if they're trying to conduct an investigation or maybe they're not to. They, they themselves have to be interviewed. And if Song is not criminal, they have to tell everything. And here he is not remembering anything, basically not being willing to share. So they cut him loose. Probably. He probably violated some employment agreements as a police officer.

[Shane]

Right. So then about 16 months after this, they still haven't found the body and they haven't arrested anyway.

[Emily]

They've never found the body.

[Shane]

They've never found the body.

[Emily]

Time you give me an update, it will be they still haven't found.

[Shane]

They still haven't found the body. But here we are 16 months later. So just to give you a little background, Crystal's dad, Tommy Ballard was he, he became an investigator himself. He was so hell bent on finding his daughter that he spent every single day investigating what happened to her. He was either Internet searching or he was going around by foot and interviewing people. He had a huge box, it was very well organized. He kept logs of, he kept dates and receipts and he went and got video footage from surveillance cameras. And so he was heavily involved in trying to find out what happened to his daughter. Then 16 months after she disappeared, this is in November of 2016, Crystal's father, Tommy Ballard, goes out hunting with his grandson on their own property. And he is shot and killed while.

[Emily]

He'S hunting 11 year old son. Right.

[Shane]

I believe he was around 11, something like that. The shooting is ruled a homicide, but no suspects are identified. After his death, the community suspicions grow that both cases are connected. I mean, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it's most likely connected to the disappearance of Crystal Rogers. Because you have a dad that's heavily involved in investigating. And I feel like maybe he was coming close to learning things. He was interviewing people, he was pulling surveillance. And if he was meddling and finding and getting too close to things, I.

[Emily]

Mean, you're gonna have a hunting accident.

[Shane]

You're gonna have a hunting accident. Yeah. And you know, I saw Oxygen did kind of a documentary and this is before his death. There were a lot of interviews with him and they were following him. And then they interviewed the brother and the brother showed them the location where he was shot when he was out hunting. And there was actually a line of trees that was very thick. But they found an area where someone had cut the trees to make a hole so that you had a clear view into the property. So they believe that's where the shooting came from. And, you know, when I say that they. The branches had, you know, know, clean edges. Someone had taken a tool and had.

[Emily]

It wasn't a bear.

[Shane]

It was. It wasn't a bear. It was human tools that had removed a lot of this brush so that there was a clear area to shoot from. And they also believe that they found the kickback, which I'm not like a gun owner person. I didn't know what that meant. But they explained the kickback is when you're holding the rifle and they're like leaning up against the tree to shoot him. Then the kickback hit the tree and they found a wedge missing out of the tree, which would have been the kickback. So they think they know exactly where the shot was fired from. There's also another murder. We're not going to go in depth into this, but there was also a murder of a police officer prior to Crystal's disappearance. He was murdered right before her. And there's also people that think that there is some connection there because he worked with Nick Hauck at the police department. So.

[Emily]

But that was prior to Crystal Rogers.

[Shane]

Prior to her disappearance.

[Emily]

They think there's a connection in terms of those who murdered or that it's the same motive. Like the.

[Shane]

I don't know. You know, what I was thinking in my takeaway was maybe Ellis, this cop who was a good cop, knew something about.

[Emily]

Well, how do you know he was a good cop?

[Shane]

Well, that's what everyone said in the interview, that he was like a great cop and that he was like a friendly guy and he was involved in his community. No, he had no, you know, stains on his reputation or anything. I think he and he had worked with Nick Hauck at this police department. I don't know if they weren't partners or anything, but they worked in the same department. I'm just putting things together. But maybe he saw something or knew something and they needed to get rid of him. And then maybe Crystal learned about that somehow. Maybe she learned about this murder of Ellis, this officer Ellis, and maybe she knew too much and then the dad knew too much about her. It seems like all these people are connected somehow in this very small town.

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[Andrea Canning]

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[Andrea Canning]

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[Shane]

Pressure is coming down.

[Max]

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[Max]

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[Shane]

So In August of 2020, this is when the FBI officially takes over the investigation into Crystal Rogers disappearance. Executing search warrants at Brooke Hauck's home, his family farm and other related properties. Agents also seize evidence from Nick Hauck's home and several vehicles. In August of 2021, the FBI returns to Bardstown to search a subdivision built by the Hauck family, focusing on new construction sites that may have been disturbed after Rogers disappeared. You know. I know. I mean they're searching for a body, right? They don't want to, they don't want to bring murder charges against someone without a body. That's like. Well, it's hard, it's hard to do. So you want to find the body.

[Emily]

A missing body does not mean they're dead.

[Shane]

You can assume, you can make an.

[Emily]

Assumption, but you can assume whatever you want. Yeah, but legally that does not automatically. There are other things that have to come into play.

[Shane]

Well, I do believe she was actually legally presumed. Presumed eventually.

[Emily]

But I'd spent in the offset. It's not like, oh, she's been missing for three days, she's dead.

[Shane]

And they're obviously looking at these sites where he's constructing things because that's the perfect way to get rid of a body. Right?

[Emily]

You're, you do tell me.

[Shane]

Well, I don't know because I've never done that. But I'm just saying if I work in construction, I build houses and I'm pouring concrete. Seems like kind of poltergeist, right? They also, they also have searched a lake. There's a lake near their family farm called Lake Melody.

[Emily]

Is that. I think I saw that. That's a massive lake.

[Shane]

It's a massive lake. They do a grid pattern which I wasn't sure how you searched a lake, but that makes sense. They, they, they don't just. I don't know. I would just get out in a boat willy nilly, you know, I don't know what to do. But they clearly have a grid pattern. They had the, the cadaver dogs on the boat. And the cadaver dog, the cadaver dog's name is Gina by the way.

[Emily]

Gina.

[Shane]

Gina. Gina would signal in the same area on like two different occasions searching this lake and then the divers would go down, you know, where she would signal and they still couldn't find anything. So the lake's been searched a few times. They still haven't found anything. Now here we get some co conspirators. First of all, we know the brother, Nick Hauck knows something, right? I mean he's involved in some way, I'm sure. And there's also some, some evidence that was found in his police cruiser. Apparently there was a blanket that was found in his police cruiser that like might have had some hair of like crystal on it or.

[Emily]

No, I had, you know, or something here.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And it was similar, right, to hers, but it was not ruled an exact match.

[Shane]

Right.

[Emily]

But nor was their DNA.

[Shane]

Right. But there was also somehow there was some recording made of Rosemary, who is the mother of Brooks and Nick, having a conversation with Nick. I don't know how they recorded themselves accidentally, but there was some accidental snap. I don't know, maybe Murdoch, I mean I couldn't really find details of it, but somehow there was an accidental recording made of Rosemary asking Nick about the blanket and the, in the trunk of the car and being concerned about it. So.

[Emily]

And what Nick's have to say, I.

[Shane]

Don'T, I don't, I don't know. That's all I can get from these articles is that, that's how I feel.

[Emily]

I, I read a little bit about the case too and it felt like there was a lot of, I don't know, it felt messy and unclear on a lot of things. Like you just said, it's like, oh, there's a hair and it's kind of the same but not an exact match. Oh, there's a blanket. Oh. Then the, the police officer says not to answer questions, but he didn't reveal anything himself. Like it's just. Yeah, frustrating.

[Shane]

It is frustrating. I think it's very clear. The facts of the case are very clear up until the point where I believe the FBI starts investigating. And I think they were very tight lipped on the evidence and that's why it's difficult to decipher what it is that, that they found. But they did in 2023 they conduct another round of searches, reportedly finding new evidence tied to Roger's disappearance. And then this is also when they found evidence of co conspirators being involved with Brooks Hauck and the disappearance and here's another question.

[Emily]

How did they connect? How did they find these co conspirators? I couldn't see that either.

[Shane]

Well, from what I understand and it's not very clear but there someone testified or must have told the FBI when they were that they overheard a conversation of Joseph Lawson and like the dad. So Joseph is the son Steve. The dad is Steve Lawson. I believe Steve Lawson works with Brooks Hauck.

[Emily]

He gets work from the realtor or the realty side of the company for the family business. And you know, the theory is maybe he was going to support, you know, he wanted to have close ties with Brooks in order to get more business. So he might have, you know, helped kind of a serpent that way.

[Shane]

Yeah, well, allegedly or I think it comes up in trial that there was someone overheard a conversation between Rosemary, who again is the mother of Nick and Brooks Hauck asking, I believe it was Steve if he knew anyone that could get rid of Crystal.

[Emily]

Yeah. And he wanted Crystal gone.

[Shane]

He wanted Crystal gone. Something like that. Some conversation like that.

[Emily]

I didn't say dead or just gone. Gone was the keyword.

[Shane]

Yeah. And then I believe he said something to the effect of well, you can get rid of anyone with the right amount of money or something like that. And apparently there was a fifty thousand dollar payment or something was money exchanged. I, I read 50 000. I don't know what the evidence was to Prove it was 50000 but there was something like that wire. So Joseph Lawson is the son of Steve Lawson. And I believe Joseph Lawson was involved because he was the one that drove the car, her car that was left along the highway and left the car there. So Joseph Lawson is indicted for conspiracy to commit murder and conspiracy tampering with physical evidence. It is not Lawson's first run in with the law. He had multiple criminal charges prior to this including 4th degree assault, 1st degree strangulation, domestic violence summons and persistent felony offender. The court allet the court records alleged Joseph Lawson was hired by Brooks Hauck to kill Crystal for 50,000. So Joseph Lawson is son and then the dad is Steve. But Joseph is the one that drove the car.

[Emily]

I believe he, he moved the car to mislead investigations and I think he went back with the dad or something because then they wanted to remove like a bat and then the car seat, they had her, they tried to fix the car seat because you know he was probably taller than right. So that, that's enough where it's like okay, you got your hands involved in this disappearance. She's presumed Dead. So now you're a conspirator in the murder.

[Shane]

Right. So In September of 2023, Brooks Hauck is arrested and charged with murder and tampering with physical evidence in the death of Crystal Rogers. His bond is set at 10 million. Court records alleged that how planned her death and disposed of her remains. Steve Lawson, the father, Joseph Lawson and former employee to Brooks Hauk is charged with conspiracy to commit murder. That makes three people facing charges in her disappearance. So In November of 2024, we're getting into almost present day here. So this case started back in 2015. Just a reminder, the judge approves two separate trials in this case. The judge also moves the case out of that county and moves it to a different county.

[Emily]

Trials are for who?

[Shane]

So the two separate, separate trials are. Steve Lawson will be tried separately from his son, but Joseph and Brooks Hou are tried together. So then on May 30th of 2025, this is after Steve Lawson's trial. He was found guilty on both counts. Conspiracy to murder and tampering with physical evidence. So there was some damning evidence presented during trial against Steve Lawson. They had recorded jail calls and statements. Prosecutors played recorded calls Lawson made from custody and used them to show consciousness of guilt and incriminating admissions about moving vehicles and helping conceal evidence. The recordings were highlighted during the closing of his trial. Witness testimony places Lawson in a roll moving Rogers car. Family and other witnesses testified that Lawson picked up his son Joseph and helped him move Crystal Rogers vehicle on or around July. The prosecution argued that that conduct was part of the conspiracy and the tampering with evidence. Then in July 8th of 2025, Brooks Halk is found guilty. He goes on trial for his own murder or his own, you know, his own murder, his own murder charges. Okay, so Brooks Hauck is found guilty of murder and they called it principal or accomplice because they could never definitively prove who. We just know that she's dead and these three people are involved, but we don't know who actually pulled the trigger or.

[Emily]

That's why I didn't like this case very much. It was very difficult to like, distinguish.

[Shane]

Who did what, whose role was what. Yeah.

[Emily]

So Brooks, it's more of a. Well, we know you guys did something right, so you're. He's gone.

[Shane]

So you're all in trouble. But we don't really know how to divvy up who did what.

[Emily]

So we'll just fire the police officer.

[Shane]

Yeah, I put all of you in.

[Emily]

Jail and then we'll try you guys.

[Shane]

Brooks Hauk is found guilty of murder, principal or accomplice and tampering with physical evidence. He is sentenced to life in prison. Joseph Lawson is found guilty of conspiracy to commit murder and tampering with evidence. And he is sentenced to 25 years in prison. So let's just talk about a little bit. Let's go through this. The most damning evidence presented against Brooks Hauck. This is what I was trying to understand because I didn't follow the trial. I. This, this case wasn't on my radar.

[Emily]

And this is very media friendly. Right.

[Shane]

Well, I think in that town, everyone.

[Emily]

In the town knew that.

[Shane]

Yeah. But I mean, I don't know. I don't know why. It was just. I didn't really know much about it.

[Emily]

Probably not until things surfaced, didn't it? What caused it to surface more recently?

[Shane]

Because he just went on trial this summer, 2025.

[Emily]

Exactly.

[Shane]

Just some of the evidence against Brooks Hauk was his own written police statement. There were a lot of inconsistencies in it and contradictions. You know, he claimed that she was playing on her phone the night he saw her the last time up until midnight. But then forensic showed that her phone was shut off at, you know, 9:27pm.

[Emily]

They didn't they ping his cell phone, their cell phones in approximate area. So it was very suspicious behavior.

[Shane]

Exactly.

[Emily]

It was all very circumstantial.

[Shane]

It all was. There's no smoking gun in this case.

[Emily]

But a life sentence on a circumstantial case.

[Shane]

Right.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Shane]

Okay, so we're super excited to have our guest today, Andrea Canning from Dateline. Andrea can is a correspondent for Dateline NBC, the longest running primetime show in NBC history. Since joining the News magazine in 2022, she has delivered breaking news and in depth investigative reports. In addition to hosting the podcast Dateline True Crime Weekly, Andrea also hosts the syndicated Dateline series and contributes to several Dateline NBC podcasts including Talking Dateline, after the Verdict and Missing in America. Her contributions to journalism have earned her three news and documentary Emmy nominations. Andrea is married to a U S. Marine Corps Reservist and F18 fighter pilot, Lt. Col. Tony Bancroft. And together they have five daughters and a son. Hi, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Hi. Hi.

[Shane]

I'm so excited to have you on today. Thank you so much. You know, I was thinking about it, and I, I, I feel like we've been like, like, dming and texting for years and years, but I don't think we've ever actually met in person, have we? No, we haven't.

[Andrea Canning]

So it all started with Kelly, like, way back in the day.

[Shane]

Oh, that's right. Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

And then she's the one who was like, yeah, I don't even know.

[Shane]

Thank you for joining us today. First of all, I love Dateline. I've been watching Dateline for years. I've always been such a true crime junkie, and that's why I've always just been. Were you always a true crime fan, or was that something that came later?

[Andrea Canning]

Oh, no, no. I was like, I, I did this appearance on the Kelly Clarkson show, like, last year, and they were like, did you. They asked, like, a similar question. Yeah, you know. Yeah. Actually, to the point where we. My dad found this book that I had written at 8 years old.

[Shane]

Okay.

[Andrea Canning]

That was called Murder Mystery, and there was a knife dripping blood on the.

[Shane]

Oh, my gosh.

[Emily]

Well, I'm glad you went in the direction of journalism.

[Andrea Canning]

Journalism, not in the other direction.

[Shane]

Right, right, right. Well, all right. So we just did. Right before you came on, we just kind of went through and did a brief synopsis of the Crystal Rogers case. And I know that I'm sure you, you know way more than we do. Is there anything. We just kind of got up to the point where Brooks went to trial. He was convicted. He's in prison for life. I would. And what can you tell me? Can. Obviously, you've been following this case. You know a lot about it. I believe you were supposed to, Were you supposed to interview him recently?

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

So he wants to talk, is what he told our team.

[Shane]

Okay.

[Andrea Canning]

But his attorney was telling him not to, and so he backed out. Okay.

[Shane]

All right. What, What? Did you follow the trial closely for Brooks?

[Andrea Canning]

Yes, I've, Yes, I've been very immersed in this case. And, yeah, I have an upcoming episode coming on very soon.

[Shane]

So. Andrea, let me ask you, first of all, do you think, just in your professional opinion, because you've been involved in true crime for so long, do you think that we will ever be able to know what happened to Crystal and where her body's located?

[Andrea Canning]

I mean, that is, you know, the million dollar question. Right. What happened to Crystal, the family, you know, obviously, Brooks hauk you know, they believe that he is responsible for this. They also point the finger at members of his family. Then there's the two other men that were involved, you know, Joseph and Steve Lawson.

[Shane]

Right.

[Andrea Canning]

You know, they. They believe 100. They know where Crystal's remains are, you know, or her body, and they are just not saying. And, you know, that was the one thing, you know, during sentencing was like, tell me where my daughter is. And they just, you know, crickets, like, they just will not say. And I mean, there were, you know, when we interviewed investigators, there were mentions of, like, oh, I, you know, I fed her to the hogs. You know, things like that. Like, never substantiated. There was also a fire that was on the property that night where they took her car. And. But they. They sifted through the. The, you know, the ash and everything, and they found no remains of Crystal. So, you know, with all that, all the. The properties and everything, I mean, she could be anywhere. Like, you know, it's. It's really hard to say do I think we'll find out. I mean, that is up. That is for them to do the right thing and to tell this family where she is.

[Shane]

You know, I'm surprised. I'm not surprised that Brooks didn't break and say, you know, where she is, because obviously he's maintaining his innocence. Correct. I mean, he's.

[Andrea Canning]

He's.

[Shane]

Yes, right.

[Andrea Canning]

But the.

[Shane]

The other two, Joseph and Steve, I'm surprised they didn't use that as a bargaining chip at some point, you know, during. Once they were indicted. And I'm surprised they didn't sit across from prosecutors and say, you know, make some kind of plea deal about where the body.

[Emily]

To them. Was that offered to them?

[Andrea Canning]

I mean, that, you know, that. That. I don't. I'm not sure if that was offered to them. I would have to pull up the transcript because they did a really lengthy interview with the prosecutors.

[Shane]

Right.

[Andrea Canning]

But Shane, I mean, and Emily, it's a great question, like, you know, why. Why not, you know, why not get a great deal right here? I can offer up where she is, you know, and we see that all the time in these cases. Right. The first person to squeal, you know, you know, gets the deal. Right, right, right. You know, in this case, they. They didn't.

[Shane]

So what is your opinion on Tommy Ballard?

[Andrea Canning]

Do you.

[Shane]

Do you believe it's all connected?

[Andrea Canning]

So I'm going to just speak from common sense.

[Shane]

Right.

[Andrea Canning]

You know, I don't know. The police have not confirmed to us that they. Even if they Think they're connected. They're very almost cryptic about it in the way that they talk about it. But if you were to talk to a lot of people in the community and use common sense, and if you talk to the family, clearly 100, they believe they're connected. I mean, Tommy is, you know, getting closer and closer to various things. He's, you know, devoted his life at this point to solving his daughter's murder, to finding her. And then, you know, and there's a. There's a man that's brought up in all of this, and apparently Tommy was really close to this other man that, that has not been charged when with anything. I'm not going to say his name, but he somehow fits into this puzzle. Tommy was getting closer to this man. Right. And then he turns up dead. And so again, I go back to common sense. He's investigating his daughter's murder. He's getting close, closer and closer to all these things.

[Shane]

Right.

[Andrea Canning]

And then he's dead. So the community, I would say that the majority of the community believes that they're connected. The mom, Sherry, you know, really believes they're connected. And then you have to look at the. Off the murder of Jason Ellis. So I'm not sure how. Where you guys are. Did you talk about him at all?

[Shane]

Yeah, we did talk about him a little bit. And I was saying, I was just trying to connect dots because like you said, how everything' very cryptic. I, I feel the same way because I've done as much research on this case as possible and it's very. It's very easy for me to find out everything that happened up until the FBI kind of took over. And then it's very difficult to understand how they put all the pieces together to kind of bring the co conspirators in and to. And how Jason Ellis kind of relates to everything.

[Andrea Canning]

But the unindicted co conspirators.

[Shane]

The unindicted co conspirators, exactly. I was going to ask you about that, too.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah.

[Shane]

But, you know, it's not clear to me how Jason is involved other than I'm just trying to make. To piece things together. But he was a police officer along with Nick Hauck. Correct. At the same police department.

[Andrea Canning]

Yes.

[Shane]

My interpretation, just from trying to use basic common sense, is that maybe he knew something or witnessed something or saw something, and then.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, that is the running theory, if these are connected. And by the way, we will have an interview on Friday's dateline with the FBI.

[Shane]

Okay.

[Andrea Canning]

So there's. They're. They're speaking out.

[Shane]

Okay.

[Andrea Canning]

So, yeah, I mean, the Jason Ellis, when you ask everyone, no one seems to have this clear link, like, oh, they got in this big fight or he was investigating Nick Hauk for drugs or, you know, there's no, there's nothing like that that you can say, oh, well, there's the motive. You know what I mean? Right. The motive they believe, the family believes, is that Nick. There may have been some issue like. And that. That they believe Nick is not only involved in, you know, this. This murder of Jason, but also Tommy. And that is the family's feeling.

[Shane]

Right.

[Andrea Canning]

That is what they are saying. That is what they told us in their interviews, you know, that. That Nick is somehow involved in this. And, you know, they did. They. They appointed a. The Attorney General appointed a special prosecutor, Shane Young, who was asked to look into the murders of Tommy Crystal and Jason. But when you interview him and you ask him, well, that seems logical that, you know, they're all connected. He will not say that. He will not. He just says, I have just been appointed to look at these things. I'm not saying that they're connected. We don't know.

[Shane]

Right. You know, I think just for me, just using brain cells and common sense, it feels to me that there is some kind of connection, you know, but we'll have to wait and see. And what you interview the FBI, do you think you're gonna. I mean, you think you're gonna learn a lot of new things that haven't been out there before? Is that your hope?

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. So the inter. The FBI has been interviewed and they are currently in the program that is bring. Being finished as we speak. The team is very feverishly working to get the. The episode finished. That'll be a, you know, something that you'll find out on.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

On Dateline.

[Shane]

Well, I'm super excited to watch that episode because I feel like I have so many questions, so I'm get a lot more answers when that episode comes up. Do you mind if I switch gears and just ask you about the Karen Reed trial? Did you see there's all the new, I guess, evidence that's coming forward from Proctor's phone that I guess they were able to tap into his icloud. Not just the phone.

[Andrea Canning]

You know, I was so immersed in that story as well. That was a wild story. And, and being there, I was there in the courthouse when the.

[Shane]

Oh, you.

[Andrea Canning]

Oh, you did actually literally sitting in the, like in this room in the courthouse, just kind of like on hold. And then where we got word, you know, that There's a verdict. And.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

And then the. The cheers from outside.

[Shane]

Wow.

[Andrea Canning]

It was so loud.

[Shane]

Yeah. You know, what was. What was your takeaway? Because I'll tell you, we did a podcast on the Karen Reed, just Karen Reed. And we did a very. In the very beginning, Shane didn't know anything about Karen Reed at all. So when I just laid out the facts of the case, like a very cursory type of this happened, he was like. Immediately, he was like, she did it. She's guilty. She ran over him. I mean, that was his takeaway. And I was like, okay, wait, now we're going to take a deeper dive into this whole conspiracy and everything that happened that night. So then we did another episode. We took a deep dive, and then he completely flipped and was like, you know, there's no way that you can convict this woman. What was your takeaway from all that? I mean, from my perspective, I just thought there is so much reasonable doubt going on that night that if I were sitting on that jury, I could never convict this woman. I understand that the logical takeaway is, okay, she drank too much, he got out of the car, they had a fight, whatever, she backed into him. But when you hear all the other evidence of what happened that night, it's.

[Emily]

Just not enough evidence legally to convict her. No, there's just not enough.

[Shane]

I'm surprised they retried her.

[Andrea Canning]

It's one of those things where, like, from, like a common sense thing, you know, you're like. Like you said, it sounds like, yeah, she did it.

[Shane]

Right, Right.

[Andrea Canning]

When you just lay it out or whatever.

[Shane]

Right, right.

[Andrea Canning]

Then when you start going down that rabbit hole of, you know, all the stuff that came out, you're like, maybe she didn't, maybe she did. Like, you go back and forth, maybe she did, maybe she didn't, maybe she did. But at the, you know, at the very least, is that reasonable doubt, which was opened up, you know, from these text messages that were, you know, sent about her. And. And like. Like, just. I mean, honestly, we could. You. You guys know, we could sit here forever and talk about this, but there's so many. So many things that, like, didn't add up.

[Shane]

Right?

[Andrea Canning]

So it's kind of one of those ones where, like, you. You understand why the family feels the way they do that she did it, and then you understand why all these supporters think she didn't do it. Like, it's. That's what made it such a fascinating case. And I interviewed Michael Proctor, okay. And he was really upset about how did my, you Know, personal text messages. How did they get them? And, you know, and that's something to remember for everybody. Like, just because you're on a personal phone doesn't mean, you know, work's not gonna tap into that, you know, and he was, that, that was the one thing that bothered him. But he definitely was painted as the villain in all of this. And, you know, he acknowledges I never should have said those things and you know, know, you know, it was like. And he's, you know, he's trying to get his job back. But at this point, I, I think.

[Shane]

He, I think, I think I read that he, he's not trying to do that anymore. Like some, like he withdrew, whatever.

[Andrea Canning]

Oh, did he?

[Shane]

Okay. I believe so. Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah. Because I haven't checked in in a while to see what's going on. You guys are, I feel like you guys are more up to date on this.

[Shane]

Well, I, I mean, I try to be. And I'll. I'll tell you, just from all the people that listen, I get so many fans that send me upd. Nice. So the reason I knew about the update with Michael Proctor and Karen Reed was because a fan sent me a video clip of, of talking about. You'll have to re. Interview him and ask him how he feels about them being able to tap into his icloud now, not just his phone.

[Emily]

Right.

[Shane]

What is it called, Shane? Is that the cloud?

[Emily]

The cloud.

[Shane]

The cloud, right. Yeah. So. All right.

[Andrea Canning]

So, yeah, no, he was not none too happy about that, obviously, because that really upended his life. But then, you know, he shouldn't have written those things. Like, you know, those things were crude and awful and you know, whether, whatever his, whether he had a role in this or he didn't have a role in this in a bad way like that just is such a bad look, you know, that, that he, he texted those things and that really opened the door to what, you know, the John o' Keeffe's family calls the Karen Reed Show. You know, they feel like this was a production, you know, by Alan Jackson, you know, that he created this whole thing and. But he had a lot to work with.

[Shane]

Well, I mean, you can make that, you can say that, but he, he was able to put teeth into it because there was so many things that lent to this possible conspiracy going on. Did you ever, did you ever have the opportunity to interview Alan Jackson?

[Andrea Canning]

Yes, I did. Yeah. I interviewed him in his office in downtown la and we went down to the garage afterwards and we did a, like a little show and tell with an SUV to talk about, you know, the light, the. The tail light.

[Shane]

Right.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. He really went over, like, why this was impossible, you know, that she did this and so that. That was a little show and tell that we had in the. The episode.

[Shane]

Yeah. I tell you, I was very impressed by Alan Jackson. I would say that would be because someone asked me the other day who would be your dream guest to come on your podcast. And I said, I said, alan Jackson. But I was talking to Jen Pedrante when I told her that, and she said, why would you have a country singer on your podcast? And I was like, jed, is there.

[Emily]

A country singer named Alan Jackson?

[Shane]

Yes, there is. I did not want Alan Jackson the country singer, even though that would be. That would be amazing too. I would make it work somehow. But.

[Andrea Canning]

But it's so funny because when I was trying to pull up in my brain, you know, Alan Jackson's name because it's just been a minute. Right, Right. All I did was I went, wait, country singer.

[Shane]

Country singer, right. Alan Jackson. Exactly.

[Andrea Canning]

I never forget his name because of.

[Shane]

Of. Of that. Exactly.

[Commercial Announcer]

Did you know? Microsoft has officially ended Support for Windows 10 upgrade to Windows 11 with an LG Gram laptop. Voted PC Mags readers for choice. Top laptop brand for 2025. Thin and ultra lightweight, the LG Gram keeps you productive anywhere. And Windows 11 gives you access to free security updates and ongoing feature upgrades. Visit lgusa.com iheart for great seasonal savings on LG Gram laptops with Windows 11. PCMag reader's choice. Used with permission. All rights reserved.

You've got the New Year's motivation, but the crowded gym? Not so much. Keep your drive. With iFit, we bring the world's best trainers right to your living room. Whether you want to crush a studio cycle class, build strength or zen out with yoga, iFit adapts to your pace and your schedule. No waiting, no judgment, just results. Make 2026 the year it sticks. Start [e-mail] Season two of unrivaled basketball is here and the talent is unreal. Paige Beckers, Nafiza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Brianna Stewart, Stewart and Moore are back to redefine the game. Unrivaled basketball season two, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5 on TNT, TruTV and HBO.

[Max]

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[Shane]

Did you follow Deli. The Deli murders.

[Andrea Canning]

I was on that case as well.

[Shane]

Okay. I will tell you, this is just my own personal opinion. I think they have the wrong man. Really I do.

[Emily]

The man on the bridge. Right?

[Shane]

The man on the bridge.

[Andrea Canning]

Man on the bridge. That was chilling story.

[Shane]

It really is. I. I don't know. It's just something. I just don't think it's Richard Allen. I.

[Emily]

It was his interrogation that you felt he was. Was pretty genuine, right?

[Shane]

I did. And I just felt how he came up on the radar with the tip that was misplaced. And I felt like they were trying to make him fit into it. And then, you know, honestly, the whole ODIN theory out there I thought was ridiculous until I really took a deep dive into it. And then I was like, okay, maybe that's not that crazy. And I don't know.

[Andrea Canning]

We. I went out there with. To the woods with the defense attorneys. Okay. And we did a whole thing on the ODIN is them.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

And how the sticks Were placed and what was on the tree and everything. And, you know, the. Of course, the prosecution says that's a bunch of, you know.

[Shane]

Right.

[Andrea Canning]

Malarkey. Malarkey. But, you know, the defense attorneys are really feel strongly that there's something to that. That's another one that, you know, that there is. That, like, there's some stuff to work with, you know. Was it Richard Allen? I mean, mean, the biggest mistake, if you're on the. On the team prosecution, the biggest mistake that was made was. Was the. The. The police officer. But he's like a park police.

[Shane]

Like a. Yeah, the conservation officer.

[Andrea Canning]

Like a conservation officer that he interviewed. Right. Richard Allen, and then didn't like, really think much of it. And he. Richard Allen, like, kind of fits some of the description of Bridgeman. And he's out there. He says that he's out there that morning. I mean, for me, that was not. They were in the interviews. They were protecting him a little bit, but I'm like, wow, that is, like, from just personal opinion, not the best detective work there. Like, you know, at least bring him in and really drill down on him, you know, instead of just being like, oh, okay, and putting the tip in a. You know, it wasn't even a tip. He interviewed him.

[Shane]

Right.

[Andrea Canning]

The conservation officer. And then it was a lady who worked for the sheriff's department, a volunteer, who. Who was constantly just giving her time and going through all the.

[Shane]

The paperwork.

[Andrea Canning]

And they were moving offices. The paperwork. And she found it in there.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

She was like, hey, what about this guy? And they were like, oh, my gosh, how did we miss this? You know? So that's, like, how that all came about. That.

[Shane]

Yeah, I. I know. I just. I don't know. When I see his. His interviews, I don't know. He just.

[Andrea Canning]

He.

[Shane]

You know, like, when I. When I think about when I watched the interview of. When they interviewed Bricks Halk, I mean, that's. That's. To me, I. I watch that and I think this guy, like, he gets.

[Emily]

The phone call, right?

[Shane]

He gets the phone call from his brother. That looks completely staged. I mean, he can't remember things. I don't know. Richard Allen just had a completely different vibe to me. And that's just a personal takeaway that I really just got the feeling that, like, he. I don't know. And then I just can't picture that man doing all that in the short amount of time and across the river and the whole thing and then back in the. The car anyway. I could be completely wrong, but when.

[Andrea Canning]

You'Re when you're standing there, like, by that bridge.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

So there's, like, now, like, they built something there so you can't. Because all the kids used to go out there and they'd do prom pictures or, like, you know, they would take. It's when you stand there and you look at that bridge that those girls went on, and then this man, like, following them. It is terrifying. It is so high up, and there's no, like, guardrails or anything. And there's. There's, like, broken ties and spaces in between. And I was just like, oh. Like, the thought of those girls, it was so haunting and so awful. And imagine that you're being hunted by this man in that moment, and you're on this thing that's so high up.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

You know, and to get to the other side. And here he comes. And then you have the wherewithal to hit record on your phone.

[Shane]

Yeah. And you know what's so interesting is anytime you have actual footage of someone, I feel like it's always, always when you release it to the public, it always seems like there's someone that recognizes someone's mannerisms or just, you know, they look at it and they're like, I know. That's that person. And the fact that, like, no one could really identify exactly who he was or. Or I. I don't know. I just. I guess because it's just. And it's a small town.

[Emily]

Right?

[Shane]

It's a small town. But I guess because he's just. It's just so indistinct. I mean, the car hearts and the. I don't know, and the jeans and the.

[Emily]

It's just not enough for. For us. We need more, maybe.

[Shane]

Because I work with the Innocence center, so much so I'm so, like, you know. But.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. And, you know, I just wanted to say your work is so great. Like, all the effort you put into that for those people that, you know, have had such a bad shake in life, you know, that. That they're. I mean, can you imagine spending even a day in prison for a crime you didn't commit, let alone, you know, years. Years.

[Shane]

No. And, you know, I've become friendly with a lot of the exonerated persons, and, you know, every time I talk to them, the fact that they have such good attitudes and that they don't harbor. It's so amazing to me. Yeah. It really is.

[Andrea Canning]

And that fundraiser was, you know, such a great cause, kind of hijacked by Tamara. And Gretcher's there.

[Shane]

Oh, yes, Gretcher's. And Tamara hijacked my man.

[Andrea Canning]

That was like the, the. The claws came out on Gretchen on that one. Yelling at Tamara as she's walking out of the. The bar. I was like, darn, that was.

[Shane]

Yeah, well, you know, Gretcher's.

[Commercial Announcer]

Gretcher's.

[Shane]

It turns a little bit into a more aggressive person when she has slayed with her. So it's like, you know, I don't. I have Shade Shane with me.

[Emily]

I gotta.

[Shane]

I gotta take it down a notch. I have to calm down.

[Andrea Canning]

Shane's bringing you down.

[Shane]

Yes, he does.

[Andrea Canning]

I'm like, come on, Emily.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Stay out of the line of fun.

[Shane]

Like, you have to behave. So. Yeah. Okay, so let me ask you, what would your dream interview. Interview be? If you could interview anyone that you probably interviewed everyone possible, but is there anyone on your radar that you would love to. To chat with?

[Emily]

Dead or alive?

[Shane]

Dead or alive?

[Andrea Canning]

Oh, you know, I used to want to interview O.J. and I wrote him for 10 years in prison. And he called me right after he got out.

[Emily]

Wow.

[Andrea Canning]

I answered the phone, I was on the way to a shoot, and it was an unknown number. And I was like, hello? He's like, hey, Andrea, it's O.J. and I'm like, oh, I wasn't expecting that one.

[Shane]

Let me pull over.

[Andrea Canning]

And yeah, and he's like. He's like, well, you know, thank you for. For your support. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no support. I wrote you letters asking for an interview.

[Shane]

Right, right, right.

[Andrea Canning]

Wasn't, you know, supporting you.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

And so, you know, I had asked him, like, if he would do an interview, and then I was supposed to go the. To. It was where he was staying in Vegas. I was actually out there hosting the Sister Wives reunion. Oh, wow. Okay. And here's. That's our crossover Real Housewives. Sister Wives and date.

[Shane]

Right.

[Andrea Canning]

And so I was supposed to go out there, and then it just. It just fell apart.

[Emily]

And then I never, you know, Emily had met O.J. once in the past.

[Andrea Canning]

Oh, did you?

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Shane]

Well, you were with me.

[Emily]

I know.

[Shane]

We were in Vegas and we went to dinner. Where did we go? It wasn't even anywhere on the Strip. We were like, outside.

[Emily]

It's like some sushi restaurant off the side.

[Shane]

Yeah. And we just were sitting at a table, and then I turned around and O.J. simpson was right behind me.

[Emily]

Well, then. And then we turned the other way, and it was Hell's Angels.

[Shane]

Yeah, it was the Hell's Angels. Yes. At another table.

[Emily]

Apparently they like sushi.

[Shane]

Yeah. My.

[Andrea Canning]

My daughter OJ Called me another time, and I was in the shower, and I never do this. Like, my phone rang, and my daughter, who was so young at the time, I, like, I'm. I don't know, she was like, 10, 11, 12, something. And I never do this, but I was like, hey, can you grab the phone? Can you answer the phone?

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

And she answered it, and she's like, hello? And then she's like, mommy, it's someone named O.J. on the phone.

[Commercial Announcer]

And then.

[Andrea Canning]

And then. So she. She's in class and like, fast forward to high school, and she's in class, and they're talking about O.J. simpson. And she's like, well, I actually talk to him. And the teacher's like, like, what? Like, you talk to O.J. huh? Yeah, he called my mom, and I answered the phone, and then. And then she's like, wait, why was OJ Talking to your mom? And she's like, well, my mom's on Dateline. And she goes, your mom's on Dateline?

[Shane]

How did they not know that? How did they not know you were Andrea Canning? How did they not know that?

[Andrea Canning]

I guess you really must not, at that point, if you have a. Like, you know, a bunch of my children in your school, like, you must really just not watch Dateline at all.

[Shane]

Right. They just.

[Andrea Canning]

At all.

[Emily]

Or your kids are saying something else about you. She works at Build a Bear, you know.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, right, right. Yeah.

[Shane]

Well, let me ask you, because do your children. Did they. Are they proud that you're on TV and, like, do they tell people? Because Annabelle goes back and forth between, my mom's a housewife and then not wanting people to know. Know that I'm a housewife. But she's 12. She's at that. That, you know, tween.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah.

[Shane]

We're like, sometimes it's cool, and then other times, she's mortified by it.

[Andrea Canning]

So I think that they. They. Well, first of all, they don't watch Dateline.

[Shane]

Well, that's good.

[Andrea Canning]

A couple of them are old enough to watch Dateline, and I'm a little offended at times that they're like. They watch these, like, other things.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

Like, I watched the Menendez brothers documentary. I'm like, really, Philly? But you don't watch Dateline. Okay.

[Shane]

Right, right.

[Andrea Canning]

So, yeah. So they're like, whenever they complain if I'm gone on the road too much or whatever, I'm like, well, do you want me to quit my job? They're like, no, don't quit your job.

[Shane]

Right.

[Andrea Canning]

So you know, I think. I think overall, they like it and they think it's cool. And they get to, you know, go into the city sometimes and go to the Today show and.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

You know, go. Go on set and see different things. And we shoot interviews here sometimes at my house, in the basement event. We'll do remote. If we're doing, like, a remote, we'll do it. Yeah. You know, downstairs. So they. They've been around the world, and, like, when I say around the world, I mean the TV world.

[Shane]

Right, right.

[Andrea Canning]

And, you know, and I used to work for Good Morning America for years, and so they would. They would always come on the show. They'd be little guests for Halloween segments, or they get their hair and makeup done in the makeup room.

[Shane]

And that's cute.

[Andrea Canning]

I think it's been interesting for them, you know, over the years to see how it all works and. Yeah.

[Shane]

Okay, one last question. The Ellen Greenberg case. Oh, oh.

[Andrea Canning]

Was that the su. The not su.

[Shane]

Suicide.

[Andrea Canning]

Suicide in Philly.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Shane]

Yeah. Do you have an opinion on that?

[Andrea Canning]

Shocking twist. Wasn't it like that?

[Shane]

Yeah, yeah. Suicide again.

[Andrea Canning]

Right. I. I don't know, like, enough about it. Only what I would say is common sense is how do you stab yourself herself in, like, that many times and behind your head? Right.

[Shane]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I believe there were. I don't remember exactly how many, but there were multiple stabs on her chest. One very deep stab that ended up being the fatal wound, and then some shallow ones in the back and then maybe. Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

How does that happen? I. I'm not. I'm not, you know, placing blame on anyone here.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

In any capacity. I just don't understand, like, how do you do that? That's.

[Shane]

Yeah. Like, you know, I don't know either. You know what, it's one of those where you read the headline and it's like, you know, you know, 20 stab wounds ruled suicide. And your takeaway is that sounds absolutely impossible. Right. Yeah. You know, once I dug into it deeply, because we did an. We did an episode on it. I'll tell you, my. I leaned a little more towards suicide than I did. I did. Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

And.

[Shane]

And I think what it was, for me, and this is just my opinion, most of the wounds were very, very shallow hesitation wounds. And that's what made me kind of tip more towards suicide because I felt as if he murdered her. It would have been in the heat of the moment, rage would have been a rage killing. And I. I don't feel like there would have been all these hesitation wounds. And so that's what. That's what. You know, that was my takeaway from it. Anyway, so.

[Andrea Canning]

So I did the Sandra Birchmore case that aired in September when you're going back into Karen Reed country.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

And that was. They. They said that was a suicide. And, you know that she had hanged herself from the door knob.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

Which I didn't even know that was a thing, by the way. Like, I always think, you know, in the movies, you see someone from a door frame, not the door knob.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

And you know, that. I don't know if you guys talked about that one, but we haven't.

[Shane]

We haven't. The only thing I know is the name and that it. It's connected to Karen Reed. I've had a lot of fans reach out and say, you need to take a deep dive into that. It's. It's on our list. Haven't gone through it yet, but very disturbing.

[Andrea Canning]

And it's. So the. The police officer, the detective is. Has, you know, is behind bars right now. He's been charged with Sandra Birchmore's murder. And he. I don't believe any trial date has been set. He has. Is pled not guilty. But, you know, that's one where it's like, that went for years with the family saying, like, no, she did not take her own life. And finally the FBI, you know, this. This chief from one of the police departments involved, she ended up doing an internal affairs investigation on this. This detective that Sandra Birchmore was in a relationship with, according to the police. Police. And so she does. Has this press conference and just puts it out there that she alleges that he had been grooming Sandra Birchmore from this young Explorers program with the police department, and that they started this sexual relationship when she was a teenager, according to the police. And then they end up. She ends up saying, telling him, I'm pregnant with your child. And so then the really chilling part is he goes over to her apartment and. Which he's confessed. He admit not confessed. He's acknowledged he went over to her apartment, and then she ends up dead. And then he goes and his wife delivers their third child within hours of him being over at her apartment in a snowstorm.

[Shane]

Wow.

[Andrea Canning]

And so they were like, he did it. He did it. He did it. The family. And then finally the FBI, they see this press conference, you know, by the chief, and I'm sure there were other things that went into that, and they. They get on the case, and then he is. He's charged by the. The U.S. attorney. He's. We he was hauled into federal court and now he's awaiting trial. So, I mean, that would, that's a really disturbing case for sure. And then it came out, last point on that was that according to reports, and we did report it in our show as well, he didn't, it's, it turned out he wasn't even the father of her baby.

[Shane]

Oh, wow. So they did some DNA testing and something.

[Andrea Canning]

They, yeah. So she had never delivered. She was pregnant.

[Emily]

Right.

[Andrea Canning]

But this whole thing, they said the motive was the baby and he didn't want, you know, and then it turns out, you know, his child.

[Shane]

Wow.

[Andrea Canning]

So, yeah.

[Shane]

Well, we're going to take a deep dive into that at some point. But thank you for putting that on my radar. I've had a lot of fans reach out about that case. But, Andrea, thank you so much for coming on today onto Legally Brunette. I appreciate it so much. We would love to have you back sometime to talk about other cases because it's so fun to chat with you. And so thank you so much for joining us.

[Andrea Canning]

I appreciate we want to have, we want to have you on Dateline, True Crime Weekly.

[Shane]

Yes, I would love that.

[Andrea Canning]

So we need to set that up. And if anyone wants to follow my stories or know when they're on, just go to my Instagram Andrea Canning and you can find out whenever things are airing.

[Shane]

Yeah. So make sure you follow Andrea, make sure you watch dateline and we look forward to your new DATELINE episode with the Crystal Rogers and your and the FBI this week.

[Andrea Canning]

It'll be this week. Yep.

[Shane]

Okay.

[Andrea Canning]

This Friday.

[Shane]

Thanks, Andrea. I appreciate it.

[Andrea Canning]

Thanks.

[Shane]

Okay, guys, make sure you watch Andrea's report on DATELINE this Friday on NBC. Check your local listings for airtime and also make sure you follow Andrea Canning on her Instagram.

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[Shane]

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[Shane]

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[Andrea Canning]

This time of year, most of us.

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You've got the New Year's motivation, but the crowded gym? Not so much. Keep your drive. With iFit, we bring the world's best trainers right to your living room. Whether you want to crush a studio cycle class, build strength or Zen out with yoga, iFit adapts to your pace and your schedule. No waiting, no judgment, just results. Make 2026 the year it sticks. Start [e-mail] Season two of unrivaled basketball is here, and the talent is unreal. Paige Beckers, Nafiza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Brianna Stewart and Moore are back to redefine the game. Unrivaled basketball season two, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5th on TNT, TruTV and HBO. Max.