The Eds: Have No Fear

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Eds: Have No Fear" – Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge

Release Date: February 26, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge, hosted by iHeartPodcasts, Eddie Judge welcomes guest co-host AJ Jacobs to discuss the multifaceted nature of fear. Filling in for Edwin Arroyave, Shane Simpson joins the conversation, adding depth to the exploration of fear and its impact on personal and professional lives.

Defining Fear and Its Impact [02:04 – 06:18]

Eddie Judge opens the discussion by defining fear as a protective, primal emotion that alerts us to danger or threats, whether physical or psychological. He emphasizes that fear is one of the seven universal emotions experienced globally and serves a crucial role in keeping us safe.

Eddie Judge [03:50 – 04:13]: "The more something scares me, the more I want to do it. Part of it has to do with my addicted addiction to adrenaline."

AJ Jacobs concurs, describing fear as both a debilitating and motivating force, depending on how one confronts it.

Personal Fears and Coping Mechanisms [06:18 – 20:45]

AJ Jacobs' Fears:

AJ shares his fear of running out of money, a concern rooted in his childhood experiences where financial instability was a constant threat. This fear manifests in his current life through anxieties about family welfare and financial responsibilities.

AJ Jacobs [07:22 – 07:31]: "People might find this weak, but something that I really am fearful of is, is running broke."

He discusses his tendency to avoid financial issues, leading to procrastination and accumulated stress over bills and unexpected expenses.

Eddie Judge's Fears:

Eddie delves into his fears of needles and spiders. His fear of needles was a significant barrier during his bodybuilding days, preventing him from considering steroid use due to the associated need for injections. Interestingly, overcoming his fear of needles in 2018 was pivotal during a medical crisis, forcing him to confront and manage this fear effectively.

Eddie Judge [09:30 – 10:07]: "I've had thoughts of failure. The way I turned it around was, well, I've been there already. I recognize it. I don't like it, but I'm confident that I can rebuild."

He also shares his enduring fear of spiders, despite not letting it hamper his daily life. Instead, Eddie channels his fear into positive actions, such as helping spiders find their way outside, which gradually reduces his anxiety.

Eddie Judge [16:01 – 16:17]: "Every time I see somebody handling a tarantula, it drives me insane. I just don't know if I could cross that barrier."

Using Fear as a Motivational Tool [20:45 – 36:43]

Both hosts explore how fear can be harnessed as a source of motivation rather than a hindrance. AJ emphasizes his commitment to his family's well-being as a driving force that transforms fear into positive energy.

AJ Jacobs [22:13 – 22:26]: "The more time I spend with her, the more challenges we have with life... It's bringing me deeper and deeper, connected with..."

Eddie echoes this sentiment, explaining how fear of failure fuels his determination to support his family and achieve personal goals. He highlights the importance of controlling one's reactions to fear to prevent it from being debilitating.

Eddie Judge [25:02 – 25:51]: "Fear is debilitating a lot of people from living their life... You can't control everything outside of you, but you can control your desires, your addictions, your weakness."

Stereotypes and Gender Roles in Fear [36:43 – 57:29]

A significant portion of the discussion centers around societal expectations of men and fear. Both hosts critique the stereotype that men should be fearless and emotionally stoic, highlighting how these expectations can hinder emotional expression and vulnerability.

Eddie Judge [70:15 – 70:24]: "You're not supposed to cry. You're not supposed to be afraid. You're not supposed to be vulnerable."

AJ reflects on his role within his family, striving to be the leader and provider while recognizing the emotional challenges that come with it. They discuss the nuances of nurturing children differently based on gender, questioning traditional approaches that discourage emotional expression in boys.

AJ Jacobs [32:37 – 33:05]: "My daughter Annabelle, who's now 12... we would all agree that she's the fearless one."

Overcoming Personal and Professional Fears [57:29 – 95:54]

Facing Fear in Professional Life:

AJ shares his journey in the legal field, detailing the fears associated with practicing law, particularly in family law. He discusses a pivotal case involving adoption, where fear of failure loomed large due to inexperience and high emotional stakes. His persistence and support from his wife ultimately led to success, reinforcing his belief in confronting fears head-on.

AJ Jacobs [85:39 – 85:45]: "I succeeded, but that was my fear. Was this family heartbreaking, you know, this family."

Eddie's Adventures and Risk-Taking:

Eddie recounts his spontaneous trip in an RV, illustrating his embrace of unpredictability and adventure as a way to overcome fear of structured life. This experience underscores his philosophy of using fear as a catalyst for personal growth and fulfillment.

Eddie Judge [105:14 – 105:25]: "We just went with the flow. There's really something to say for that."

The Role of Empathy and Maturity in Managing Fear [36:43 – 57:29]

Eddie and AJ discuss how age and experience contribute to a more empathetic and composed approach to fear. Eddie notes a shift in his reactions to everyday frustrations, opting for understanding over confrontation, a change he attributes to increased empathy over time.

Eddie Judge [37:28 – 38:46]: "Now I'm more empathetic... I just let them go, you know, let them be."

AJ shares similar insights, emphasizing the importance of self-control and not letting fear dominate one's actions. Both agree that maturity brings a better understanding of managing fear without letting it hinder personal and professional relationships.

Relationships, Vulnerability, and Fear of Love [94:22 – 87:02]

Eddie opens up about his experiences with love, detailing the emotional turmoil of past relationships and his initial fear of falling in love again after significant heartbreaks. He recounts his journey back to love, highlighting the vulnerability and deep connection he achieves with his current partner, Tamara.

Eddie Judge [65:17 – 66:28]: "I rather be in love and feel the pain of breaking up than never, ever feeling love."

They discuss the balance between vulnerability and strength in relationships, challenging the notion that men should always be the unwavering pillars in their families. AJ reflects on his own fears of losing his family unit, especially with public exposure through TV shows, and how overcoming these fears has fortified his relationship.

AJ Jacobs [72:00 – 73:03]: "I'm a big believer in just kind of trying to work it out and keep the family together."

Professional Challenges and Overcoming Fears in Law [73:03 – 95:54]

AJ dives into his legal career, sharing fears related to disappointing clients and handling complex cases. He details his transition from family law to specialized areas like workers' compensation, emphasizing the importance of expertise and focus in overcoming professional fears.

AJ Jacobs [85:27 – 85:31]: "My fear in that case was not winning because this loving family and the stepfather... was my Fear was then this family leaving the courtroom..."

Eddie relates this to his experience working in niche areas of law, highlighting how specialization can mitigate fears associated with overwhelming and emotionally charged cases.

Eddie Judge [95:27 – 95:38]: "That's why we focus on HOA law, bankruptcy, transactional foreclosures... it's a very niche industry."

Conclusion: Embracing Fear and Personal Growth [95:54 – 108:33]

The hosts conclude by reflecting on the importance of facing fears to lead a fulfilling life. AJ expresses his commitment to confronting his remaining fears, inspired by Eddie's strategies and experiences. They encourage listeners to embrace fear as a tool for personal and professional development rather than a barrier.

AJ Jacobs [99:08 – 99:35]: "I'm going to take it on... fine tune it and be superior that way."

Eddie shares anecdotes illustrating the benefits of spontaneous decision-making and embracing the unknown, reinforcing the podcast's central theme of using fear as a catalyst for growth and adventure.

Eddie Judge [104:42 – 105:25]: "It felt like I was free, restrictive. There's something to say for that."

Both hosts emphasize the value of resilience, empathy, and continuous self-improvement in overcoming fears, offering a motivational perspective for listeners seeking to navigate their own challenges.

---

Notable Quotes:

1. Eddie Judge [03:50]: "The more something scares me, the more I want to do it."
2. AJ Jacobs [07:22]: "People might find this weak, but something that I really am fearful of is, is running broke."
3. Eddie Judge [09:31]: "Fear of failure comes from my childhood... I find myself responsible for a wife and five kids."
4. AJ Jacobs [07:56]: "That sounds debilitating, and I totally, totally understand that."
5. Eddie Judge [25:02]: "Fear is debilitating a lot of people from living their life."
6. AJ Jacobs [32:37]: "My daughter Annabelle... she's the fearless one."
7. Eddie Judge [70:15]: "You're not supposed to cry. You're not supposed to be afraid."
8. AJ Jacobs [72:00]: "I'm a big believer in just kind of trying to work it out and keep the family together."
9. Eddie Judge [105:14]: "Just do whatever came to us, we did. It was so much fun."
10. AJ Jacobs [99:08]: "I'm going to take it on... fine tune it and be superior that way."

Final Thoughts

"The Eds: Have No Fear" delves deeply into the nature of fear, its origins, and its influence on both personal and professional facets of life. Through candid conversations, Eddie Judge and AJ Jacobs provide insightful perspectives on overcoming fear, challenging societal stereotypes, and fostering resilience. This episode serves as both a reflective exploration and a motivational guide for listeners striving to navigate their own fears and achieve personal growth.

Transcript

[Gabe Lehners]

What would you do if mysterious drones appeared over your hometown? I started asking questions. What do you remember happening on that night of December 16th?

[AJ Jacobs]

It actually rotated around our house, looking as if it was peering in each window of our home.

[Gabe Lehners]

I'm Gabe Lehners from Imagine I Heart Podcasts and Leonhurst Entertainment. Listen to Obscurum Invasion of the Drones wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

[Colleen Witt]

Are you hungry? Colleen Witt here. And Eating While Broke is back for season four every Thursday on the Black Effect Podcast Network. This season we've got a legendary lineup serving up broke dishes and even better stories on the menu. We have Tony Baker, Nick Cannon, Melissa Ford, October London, and Carrie Harper Howey turning Big Macs into big moves. Catch Eating While Broke every Thursday on the Black Effect Podcast Network. IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast. Wherever you get your favorite shows, come hungry for season four.

[AJ Jacobs]

Dressing. Dressing.

[Eddie Judge]

Oh, French dressing.

[AJ Jacobs]

Exactly.

[Eddie Judge]

That's good.

[AJ Jacobs]

I'm AJ Jacobs and my current obsession is puzzles. And that has given birth to my podcast the Puzzler. Something about Mary Poppins? Exactly.

[Eddie Judge]

This is fun.

[AJ Jacobs]

You can get your daily puzzle nuggets delivered straight to your ears. Listen to the Puzzler every day on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your.

[Eddie Judge]

Welcome to my Legacy. I'm Martin Luther King iii and together with my wife, Andrea Waters King, and our dear friends Mark and Craig Kilberger, we explore the personal journeys that shape extraordinary lives.

[Colleen Witt]

Join us for heartfelt conversations with remarkable guests like David Oyelowo, Mel Robbins, Martin Sheen, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and Billy Porter.

[AJ Jacobs]

Listen to my legacy on the iHeartRadio.

[Eddie Judge]

App, Apple Podcasts or. Or wherever you get your podcasts.

[AJ Jacobs]

This is my legacy.

[Eddie Judge]

This is the Eds with Eddie Judge and Edwin Arroyave. Welcome back to the Ed's Podcast. My name is Eddie and today we have a special co host, Shane Simpson. He is filling in. Hello. Hello. How are you, buddy?

[AJ Jacobs]

Good, good. Thanks for having me.

[Eddie Judge]

Good. Thanks so much for filling in for Edwin today. Unfortunately, he was not able to attend. He's got some big things going on in his life right now, that of our very, very important, particularly with his wife's health. And I just want to take this moment to wish him well and a speedy recovery. And I hope that the entire family gets through this.

[AJ Jacobs]

Absolutely, Absolutely.

[Eddie Judge]

I'm excited, buddy. Did you know that you were our first guest ever when we launched our podcast? You were our first person.

[AJ Jacobs]

I do remember that. It was a little while ago. It was enjoyable.

[Eddie Judge]

I want to say it's almost a Year ago.

[AJ Jacobs]

No way. Really?

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. Because I think we started. Well, a year ago. We started in February, and we did a podcast introducing ourselves. And then we did another podcast talking about ourselves again. And then I think the third podcast is when we started interviewing house husbands.

[AJ Jacobs]

Okay. You get some good insight from house husbands.

[Eddie Judge]

I have. You know, I've been really excited to get to know the guys, particularly the ones I like. You know, it's. It's fun to hear their real story and hear who they really are, because, you know, I've. I wouldn't call myself a victim. I don't like to victimize myself. But I think when you don't really speak your voice and tell your true story and share who you are, it's hard to have anybody believe you know who you are.

[AJ Jacobs]

Right. And in a way, you feel like you're in the closet and you're kind of hiding out and you want to be able to express yourself a little bit.

[Eddie Judge]

And one thing I learned is, you know, and. And Terry taught me this. He. He loves talking about himself. So it really is good for us to talk about ourselves because who else knows us better than ourselves, right?

[AJ Jacobs]

And maybe there's, you know, some areas you feel that you're misheard on or misunderstood on and you want to be able to provide clarification on. We're really, like you mentioned, we're really talking to ourselves.

[Eddie Judge]

Hey, so listen, today's topic is about fear and any type of fear phobias or anything like that. We want to talk about fear and men relating to fear. We might hit on a little bit about how women handle fear, but personally, I. I don't know about you, but I use fear as a tool. The more scared I am of doing things or the more something scares me, the more I want to do it. Part of it has to do with my addicted addiction to adrenaline. You know, if it doesn't scare me, it's not big enough, it's not scary enough. I really don't want to do it. So it took me a while to get here thinking about when was the last time I was afraid. I think I was a kid. You know, we didn't know anything as a kid. And I think that's where fear really derives and cripples people. Is. Is. Is the unknown, right? Everybody fears the unknown, and everybody is comfortable with what they know and they stick to it. So I was looking up the definition of fear, and it made total sense. And I'll. I'll. I'm going to read it out because it was A long one. But it's to the point it says fear is protective primal emotion that evokes a biochemical and emotional response alerting us to the presence of danger or the threat of harm. Whether that danger is phys or psychological, it is one of the seven universal emotions experienced by everyone around the world and it arises with the threat of harm, real or imagined. While traditionally considered a negative emotion, fear actually serves as an important role in keeping us safe by mobilizing us to cope with potential danger. I think it's precisely what, what fear is. Right?

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah. Pretty heavy.

[Eddie Judge]

How do you handle fear in general? I mean, is there anything you're afraid of?

[AJ Jacobs]

Well, you mentioned that it seems like you lean into something, so something is potentially fearful for you. You like to attack it and go head, head, you know, head first. Right. And maybe beat it, I'm guessing. Right. And, and, and overcome it. Yeah, I think that's the case for me sometimes. Right. I certainly can't say I attack everything and I'm just going after it. But yeah, sometimes if I'm fearful for something, I will go in head first. If it's, if it's work related, then I'll have to plan ahead of time. But then there's sometimes some things that are fearful that I might just, you know, wish I could go put my head in the sand and kind of be buried. Right. And kind of be like a. What's that? Like an ostrich. Right. They put their head in the, in the sand.

[Eddie Judge]

Give me an example of that.

[AJ Jacobs]

Of running away from something.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. Like what? What would be something that you have to put your hand in the sand and go. I don't want to know.

[AJ Jacobs]

You know, when I was thinking about what am I scared of?

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

People might find this weak, but something that I really am fearful of is, is going broke.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

Is running out of money.

[Eddie Judge]

Fear of failure.

[AJ Jacobs]

And that comes from my childhood, everything that was thrown at me as a kid. You have to earn, you have to earn. You're going to go broke, you're going to broke, you're going to be a bum. And it was always like that growing up. So now, you know, anytime Emily comes home with a pair of shoes or something, what runs through my head is we're going to run out of money. And I'm thinking I got a wife and five kids that I find myself responsible for.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

So to get back to your question a little bit, when it comes to money, I actually avoid it. So if there's some bills to be paid or something that's you know, takes me, you know, kind of hits me from the side and it's something unexpecting. Then I get really worried and I kind of put it to the side. And I have a pile of bills to pay on my desk that Emily keeps getting after me for. So for whatever reason, that's not something I attack head on. That's something I kind of hide from.

[Eddie Judge]

That sounds debilitating, and I totally, totally understand that. Similar to me growing up with nothing and working my ass off and building, you know, what we have in my life. I have. I've had thoughts of. Of failure. And the way I turned it around was, well, I've been there already. I've been there with nothing. And if I had to go back and do it again, I've been there. I recognize it. I don't like it. I don't want to do it. It's not fun. But I'm confident that I can rebuild because I've built what I have and who I am today. A lot more confident now, obviously, because I have the history of working my ass off and doing whatever it takes to support family, support myself, and do the things I want to do. But now in my 50s, that's kind of reduced. I don't want to start over. I don't want to have to go back.

[AJ Jacobs]

It sounds like, you know, you've been there and, you know, you can get out of it.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. Yeah. But do I want to do it at 50? I don't think so.

[AJ Jacobs]

No. It's like. It's like if I've been attacked by a dog, maybe I'll be scared of that happening again. But I know I can. I can survive it. And it will be so bad. Right.

[Eddie Judge]

Gosh, there's so many examples we can talk about now. I have had two fears or phobias my entire life, and I was recently able to eliminate one. Both fears are. One was a fear of needles, actual, like, you know, syringe needles.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

And the other was a fear of spiders. Now, where I got the fear of needles probably comes from either the dentist or going to, you know, dotted doctors when I was little. And when they poke you for whatever vaccine or medicine or whatever, especially in your teeth, like when they poke you and they hit the nerve or they hit the bone or they hit something, and as a kid, it's traumatizing. It is so traumatizing.

[AJ Jacobs]

Absolutely.

[Eddie Judge]

So I think that's why I feared it. And fortunately, it worked out. I look at it positively. It worked out well for me because in my early 20s, when I was really getting into bodybuilding and working out and. And, you know, watching all these guys around me that are just, you know, biceps are as big as my head, and their bodies are giant and enormous. And I'm looking at them, admiring them, because I use that as motivation. But in the back of my head, I'm like, maybe I should do some drugs. Maybe I should do steroids. You know, I want to look like that. And fortunately, the fear of needles is what stopped me. I just did not want to deal with the needles. And I. And I. I thank God in hindsight, you know, because of what I know today, you know, the side effects and the risks and everything that's involved with that lifestyle, it just wasn't worth the risk for me. So that's the one fear I actually got over in 2018.

[AJ Jacobs]

So. But for your fear of needles, you really would have gone down that direction in. In your pursuit of, you know, weightlifting and. And being fit. That really kind of. That was the. The. That drew the line for you at that time.

[Eddie Judge]

Yes, I. I have to. I have to say yes. And I thought you were going to ask me the question, like, if that wasn't a fear, would you have done it? I probably would have because I was so into bodybuilding and I wanted to get the results. But I don't know if I was to go back. I mean. I mean, there was obviously other side effects that, you know, as a kid, people talk about it makes your smaller.

[AJ Jacobs]

Oh, yeah. But when you're a kid, you're invincible, right?

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

And you believe everything you hear don't apply to you. Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

So I'm glad. I am glad I didn't do that. But at the same time, I learned a big lesson in my life, and that's. You can get over a lot of fears. And the way I got over this fear was when I was in the hospital for almost a year with my heart issue, you know, my aphid.

[AJ Jacobs]

And what year was that? How recent was that?

[Eddie Judge]

It was in 2018.

[AJ Jacobs]

Okay.

[Eddie Judge]

And I found myself in the hospital. I got three ablations and, like, seven cardioversions. But every time I went in, you know, they had to take my blood. So the nurse would. I would sit down and the nurse would look, you know, pull out this big old needle, and I literally had to do this.

[Gabe Lehners]

Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

To force myself to look at that needle going into my vein. And after about six or seven of those, I got over it.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

Like, okay, I could do this.

[AJ Jacobs]

That might go for many things, right? If you have a fear of skydiving and you do it six or seven times, you might overcome it, right?

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

And I guess you had a greater good, which was becoming healthy. So becoming healthy, you had to set that aside because you wanted the end result, right? So you had. You had no choice, in a way, or you did have a choice, and you chose, you know, becoming healthy.

[Eddie Judge]

And. And I think it goes back to my theory of fear, right. If I fear something, and like, I read that, that definition, fear to me has always been sort of. Sort of a negative connotation. Like, if you fear something, how do you get over it? How can I win this? Because I'm not going to let fear win. So I could have made the choice of, you know, just covering my eyes or looking the other way while they're taking the blood and. And getting through it. But I forced myself, I made the conscious choice to say, I'm gonna look at this needle going inside me with a whole goal of getting past this fear. I don't like to be afraid of anything. And the one thing I'm still afraid of is spiders, of all things.

[AJ Jacobs]

Well, that's very interesting. So at first I thought you meant you just got used to it and so it normalized it for you and you were okay with it. But you're saying you actually made a conscious effort to accept, you know, what you had to go through and. And be. And you leaned into it and you. You embraced it in a way. In some way, yes. That's. That's much more fascinating, actually, with the.

[Eddie Judge]

Goal in mind to get over it, you know, because it's. I. I can't figure out why I was even afraid of needles. I mean, needles. People get needled all the time, you know, so it was an un. Unnecessary fear. Right. And that's probably where spiders fall in and Unnecessary fear. But looking back to see what I. Why I was afraid of spiders. It might have been when I was a kid and I was watching some stupid horror movie about giant spiders, and it scared the living hell out of me. Like, okay, who.

[AJ Jacobs]

Who wants to be with a spider?

[Eddie Judge]

Pretty ugly.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah. Yeah. I'll support you in that. In that fear. If you choose to get over it. I'll help you with that.

[Eddie Judge]

I. You know, every time I see somebody handling a tarantula, it drives me insane. I just. I see that it's possible, but I just don't know if I could cross that. That barrier, you know?

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, but it's not limiting your life in any way either, right? Needles, you could argue it might, if you choose to walk away from it, because you might not get the treatment that you're looking for. Right. Spiders. Is that really stopping you from pursuing anything?

[Eddie Judge]

No, no. In fact, I've taken. How do I put this? I've taken a path where I. When I do see a spider, I try to help it get back into, you know, it's. It's nature. You know, if it's in the house, I'll get a cup or something and, you know, help it and get it out. So it makes me feel good and it kind of makes me reduce my fear of spiders. But, you know, then you find these images of the spiders they have in Australia that are as big as your head and. Yeah, yeah, I'm not going to help that one. That's going to be dead. I'm going to get my machine gun and I'm going to shoot the hell out of that thing.

[Gabe Lehners]

Have you ever looked into the night sky and wondered who or what was flying around up there? We've seen planes, helicopters, hot air balloons and birds. But what if there's something else, something much more ominous that appears under the COVID of night? Silent, unseen, watching. They may be right above your car late one night as you cruise down the road. Or look like mysterious lights hovering above your home. Drones.

[AJ Jacobs]

Or are they? We used the word drone because it was comfortable to other people. One minute was there and one minute it wasn't.

[Eddie Judge]

Oh, that is beyond creepy.

[Gabe Lehners]

Do you feel like this drone was targeting you specifically?

[AJ Jacobs]

Yes, absolutely.

[Gabe Lehners]

Listen to Obscurum. Invasion of the Drones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[AJ Jacobs]

So your fear of needles reminded me of something which is a fear. Although I never classified it as a fear. It was always a worry. I was always worried about becoming addicted to things. So an example of being addicted to energy drinks. So nothing against energy drinks. In fact, I wish I could take them sometimes or use them sometimes, but I worry that that'll be my go to. Yeah, become very dependent on an energy drink in the morning and afternoon and at night rather than just relying on my own self. So I've never had a sip of energy drink for that reason. And it's actually because I, I fear that I, I don't have the self discipline to overcome getting addicted to it. And the same goes for medications. So I have a gallbladder, I have stones in my gallbladder and they activate and when they activate it, it's pretty bad. It's a lot of pain and they can give you Vicodin for it. And I took it once, and I was like, oh, this is no wonder why people love this stuff. You know, it's like, screw the stones. I don't care about that. Stuff was really good, you know, you feel really good.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

I never went back and got another prescription for it again. I control it with my diet and everything. I was. I was fearful to just always go get Vicodin. Vicodin. Vicodin, or whatever painkiller they provide me. And then I become dependent on that, and then now addicted to it. So I stayed away from that and learned other ways to. To accommodate my gallbladder stones. But that's another story. So.

[Eddie Judge]

So it sounds like you're saying that you actually were afraid of being addicted. It's the fear of addiction. Absol. That totally makes sense to me. And that's one of the biggest reasons why I like to practice abstinence. And I've done it for many years. There was a period of time when I was running my dad's law firm, and I would bring in cases of Monster or Red Bull or some energy drink, and we would be ultra productive for three straight weeks. And then I would take everybody off of it. We won't be very productive that week. But that practice, I think, allowed me to have a sense of control, because I could understand that. That. I guess fear of addiction is a real thing. Yeah, I've witnessed it in various circles, from, you know, being addicted to drugs, to being addicted to alcohol, to being addicted to anything, really. It's a real thing. And. And I can see the fear in that. Like, I don't want to get caught up in that. You know, I don't want to be dependent on anything.

[AJ Jacobs]

Right.

[Eddie Judge]

Do you drink coffee?

[AJ Jacobs]

No, I don't drink coffee. I just never. I've never had an appeal to it. I've never cared for it. And my thinking would be the same because I do see a lot of people drinking coffee in the morning. My wife, my. My father, a lot. A lot of people around me. And I provide it, you know, if they want to come and I'll run the errands and go grab them stuff. So I'm not against it. You know, I'm not going to sit there and lecture them. But yeah, I see the dependency on it. You know, Emily, as most people can't function until they have that morning coffee. And it's. It's worrisome. You know, Emily, to be fair, Emily was very, very dependent on her coffee when she had her hip Problems. She had a lot of chronic pain, so that would help her get through it. And we didn't know that at the time. I just always tease her for being so dependent on it and I. And it worried me.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

Once she had her hip replacement and she recovered, she's not so dependent on now. She enjoys it. She certainly will get it every morning. But if for some reason our schedules are off and she's not allowed to run down to her Pete's Coffee and grab it, she can actually survive the morning, which is really refreshing. And the abstinence that you had mentioned is really commendable because you're resetting, right. You're getting back to the roots and feeling your body and making sure that you're okay without it.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

And. And I know my father does that with coffee. About once a year, he'll go two weeks without it just to tell himself that he is not dependent on it. Right.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. And so definitely a psychological tool for me to be able to have a lot of self control. Because what I do know about life is I can't control everything outside of me. But if I can control my desires, my addictions, my weakness, this is whatever I can control about me. My thoughts, which are hard to control, you know, thoughts are going to come in. I have no responsibility. But what you do with it is what you can control. So what do you, what do you use to give you energy? Where do you get your energy from?

[AJ Jacobs]

You know, I. This might sound corny, but I just, I have a lot of responsibilities with the family and my kids and, and my concern on a daily basis is their well being. And I don't want to make it like they're better than other children. And I don't mean their well being like they have, you know, nice clothes and fancy things, but just that they're well rounded and become independent. So, you know, I have a. My oldest daughter's now 24, soon to be 24, and she's married. And my concern was always that she would get to that point where she's now in a very independent person and not having to call me all the time for things. Not because I don't want her to call me, but because I want her. You know, what if I'm not around one day? Right. I don't want her to have a troubled life and I don't want to be in my 70s and my kids are struggling with just being, you know, self reliant. So every day I wake up, actually every night I go to bed thinking about the Next day, what do my kids need? And making sure they're okay. And then I wake up and it's just, go, go, go, go. It's. It's homework. It's. It's discipline with school. It's, you know, how they treat each other. It's making sure they have all the things that they need. You know, my. I have a second daughter in college, and I call her about. If I don't hear from her sooner about every other day to make sure she's okay, because she's. She's got a little bit of a transition period going on right now that she's struggling with. So that's my motivation, is just constantly thinking about them and what. What they need. And that's the only thing that kind of gets me going.

[Eddie Judge]

And that's interesting. I've had a lot of friends share those emotions because it sounds like it's. It's a psychological strength of yours that you utilize to keep you motivated. Right. It's. It's not physical. You're not drinking anything. You're not, you know, injecting yourself with anything. You're not really doing anything physical to give that energy that you need to keep powering through your day to accomplish what you need to accomplish so that you fulfill. Call it your fear. Right. To. To. To say, okay, I did great today, and I'm not afraid. Tomorrow's another day. Let's do it.

[AJ Jacobs]

Right.

[Eddie Judge]

And I've had a lot of fears. When I was part of Entrepreneurs Organization, I was surrounded by a lot of entrepreneurs, and it was sort of like half of them were driven by fear. The fear of failure, the fear of having no money, the fear of not making it. And then the other half were driven by success. Like. Like seeing progress. Right. Meaning they didn't use fear as a tool or emotional tool to drive them. Because it was more debilitating to think about the fear than it was to just power through and think about all the great outcomes that you're going to have and not let fear hold you. Does that make sense?

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, some people, you know, they want to be the best at something, and that might be their motivating factor. Right. Or some people scared of. Sure. There's billionaires out there that always think they're going to go broke, so they're always striving for more and more and more. Right. Because it's. It's never going to be enough.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. So I remember my dad used to say this to me, and maybe it's a lawyer thing, but he Used to always, you know, motivate himself by. By fear. And some of the comments, what he would say were. What we started talking about were, we're not going to make payroll this week. I guess we're going to be living in our cars like that. Living in my car, dad.

[AJ Jacobs]

What was his thinking when he would say that, though? Was his thinking to. Was he really thinking that to himself?

[Eddie Judge]

I think that was his motivation. The fear of living in your car, the fear of failure or not having enough money to, you know, to pay the bills or, you know, to keep the wolves away from the door. Right.

[AJ Jacobs]

So that really was a concern he had. He really, to him, we might be living in our car next week.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. Yeah. That's what motivated him. I never understood it, but I get it, but I never understood it. I just. I don't like the feeling of being debilitated by anything. Right. And the only thing I can think of right now, the top of my head, would be like, if somebody was standing in front of me with a gun pointing at me and my family. Family, I don't know what I would do. You know, the. The. The default reaction would be like, hey, everything. You can have whatever you want. You can have all my money, you can have all my cars, you can have all my shit. Just leave my family alone. You know? And would I be scared? Hell, yeah, I would be scared. I don't know how I can get over that. Right. Because I'm scared for my family. I'm not afraid for me. You know, also, I'm the kind of guy that will go jump out of an airplane just for fun, even though it scares the living hell out of me. Right. But I don't do it because it affects my wife in a negative way. She. She had two things in life that she didn't want me to ever do. Well, three. The third one is obvious. You know, it's infidelity. I'm not going to do that. I can control that. But the other two were jumping out of an airplane and skydiving and riding a street bike. Now, I got away with the street bike thing because we made a deal.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, well, what was the deal? Was there just some safety measures to be taken or.

[Eddie Judge]

The. Honestly, it's going to be. It's going to sound ridiculously dumb, but.

[AJ Jacobs]

Not if it helped you overcome it or helped her overcome it. So what was it?

[Eddie Judge]

The deal was when she was off the show for two years, I think she was asked to go back. And around that same time, my youngest son, Spencer, was trying to have a relationship with his dad, and they ended up. I think his dad ended up getting a Harley Davidson. I mean, my son never rides a bicycle. Why would he be motorcycle, right? And we get the. The receipts and the. All that stuff in the mail delivered to us. And she looks at me like, did you get a motorcycle without telling me? I'm like, no, I would never do that. You know, I would never do that for you. And that gave me the opportunity, long story short, to say, well, he's got a motorcycle. How come I can't get a motorcycle?

[AJ Jacobs]

Right?

[Eddie Judge]

And then she says, I'll make you a deal. If you let me, if you agree to go back to the show, you can get a motorcycle.

[AJ Jacobs]

So, okay, so with a quid pro quo was, you know, I'll kind of let something slide that I'm not okay with. If you let something slide that you're not okay with.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was scary. I mean, the scariest thing about riding a street bike was riding it on a freeway. It scared the living hell out of me. And it only took riding the freeway two or three times when I realized it's the safest place to be because. Because everybody's going the same direction. Granted, you know, we're going 70, 80, 90 miles an hour, but everybody's going the same direction. So it's safer than crossing the street.

[AJ Jacobs]

Safer than going through a green light. Yeah, yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

Or somebody. Most accidents happen, you know, from stupidity, you know, the writer doing stupid and the other is, you know, accidents where somebody just turns in front of you, and that's how shit happens. So when I'm riding on the street, I don't do anything stupid. I write really slow and very defensive. But on the freeway, I feel good. I can go 80, 90 miles an hour, and I still feel safe, even though all the other cars around me are going the same speed. But it took me a while to get there. Yeah, I was scared. I was really afraid.

[AJ Jacobs]

So you've overcome quite a bit, then. You've. You've not been scared of being fearful. Right. You tried to take it on.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. And. And there's a stereotype of. Of men that are not afraid. Right, right. Do you view that as. As a. As a current situation with our men today, our younger men, or is this a, you know, generational thing, like when we grew up? You know, the whole. You want something to cry about? I'm gonna give you something like, okay, I'm not crying. That's how I grew up anyways.

[AJ Jacobs]

Well, you know, it's funny because when, generally speaking, when we raise kids, if, if a little girl falls down and, and skins her knee, what do we say? Oh, princess, it's okay. When a boy falls down, what do we say? Generally speaking, we say, walk it off, it's okay. Chick scars, you know, all that stuff. Right. And so you can't help but say that that has an effect when they're older. You know, when a girl gets hurt emotionally or physically, you know, how they're, how they view it versus the male, how he views it.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. Now if you were to re swap those two and you raised a boy like a princess and a girl like, you know, man up, would you, have you seen kind of have you met anybody like that? Like, I've met some pretty tough chicks. Like.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, you know, I, I don't, I don't know. It have to make a difference, Right. I mean, it's nature versus nurture, right? Yeah, it's a combination of both. So what we're talking about nurturing and, and how you raise them and, you know, it's kind of scary to think about how much influence a parent or an adult has around a child.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

I mean, you can make them think and feel just about anything. And that's, yeah, that's what I was talking about earlier. Right. I always get concerned that, you know, I don't want to be the one that causes them harm or damage and later on in life. Yeah, we have a lot of power. So.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

I don't know, I guess it would be a lifelong experiment, Right. To raise your children ways and see. But then, you know, I don't know if that's something we want to experiment with.

[Eddie Judge]

But I, I, it's so unpredictable though, because the kids that we have today are not the same kids when they were little. You know, I would agree with the whole different. Some of them actually swap. You know, the, the boy is a little bit more sensitive than the girl and the girls, like, you know, I don't care, Dad. I can handle it.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah. I mean, I got a daughter, my daughter Annabelle, who's now 12. We, I mean, of all five of my children, we would all agree that she's the fearless one. Right.

[Eddie Judge]

See that? I don't know that.

[AJ Jacobs]

But she came out of the womb like that.

[Eddie Judge]

Oh, really?

[AJ Jacobs]

I mean, as far as we could tell, she was always like that. It's not like we said walk it off or here, here's a dirt bike. Let's learn. She just on her own would climb things, fall, get hurt, and get back on we have, you know, two boys, and they're quite the opposite. I mean, same house, same parents, same everything, same pain. I don't know. For whatever reason.

[Eddie Judge]

So I don't get it.

[AJ Jacobs]

I do know that Emily, you know, really loves having mama boys, right? So she loves her boys. And, yeah, we argue and kind of have a little debate how much of a part. And she's like, well, they're my boys. That's what I'm gonna do. Yeah. I'm thinking, yeah. But then she gets mad at me, saying, they're a bunch of whips. You gotta toughen them up. I'm like, quit cuddling with them in bed. And when they cry and they want to sleep with you, quit doing that.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

And then maybe we can toughen them up. But when. When, you know they're twins, right? We have twins. And this year, this school year, I wanted them in separate classes. So I made the decision. I went to. I went to the teacher or the principal and said, I want them in separate classes. They give the twins the option, so they allow parents to decide if they want them together or not. I didn't know that. I. I learned that over the last few years, and I thought, okay, my last. Their last teacher said, one more year. She goes, I would advise one more year. I don't remember the reasonings, but she did that. So I. I honored that because she was a teacher. Then the next year, which was fourth grade, I made a decision. I told the school, separate classes, please.

[Eddie Judge]

And interesting.

[AJ Jacobs]

One of them was not having it. Complaining, crying. And I kept telling Emily, no, he's gotta learn, because all the more reason why they're in separate classes. Exactly what happens. Lo and behold, magically, they go in the same class. So I find out, you know, one of the kids, one of them, it was Luke who was all excited. He was going to the other classroom. And I'm like, what? And then mom called the school and had them together. And so, you know, come on, Mom. I know. So you'll have to tease her next time you see her. But so, you know, did she baby them? Yes. Can I say that that's wrong? No, I disagree with it. Yeah, but you know, to sit here and say it's wrong. I don't really know. Maybe it would have gone the other way around. Maybe he would have been.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

Overly depressed and not really focused on his schooling. I. I don't know.

[Eddie Judge]

I don't know.

[AJ Jacobs]

I did disagree with that. I thought, here you are yelling at me to toughen him up while you're taking him from one classroom to the next so he can be with his little brother. Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

It'S. It's hard only because I've seen my kids evolved and done different things and you know, just. And they're still growing into who they are as characters. Right. They have a whole life ahead of them. And I say that because I'm the same but the different person today, you know, that I was when I was younger.

[AJ Jacobs]

Well, you're. I imagine we're the same, but with much more experiences and ability to make decisions. Right. But that doesn't mean we don't think differently. Like the same, same thoughts come through our head. The same fears. Like you, you still, you know, you have a fear of fighters.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

Or needle. Let's use these. You know, you have a fear of needles.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

But you've overcome it. Right. So you, you didn't really. You just changed the way you approach it.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah, yeah. And there's another thing that's kind of happened to me in my old age. I'm a lot more empathetic. I can, I take perfect example is road rage. You know, when I was younger, I'd get pissed off and you know, I' them off or I'd make a point. Nowadays I understand people have going on there in their lives and if you cut me off, whether it's on intentional or on purpose, as long as there's no accident or you made me do something, you know, like have my own accident, then we don't have a problem. Just let them go, you know, let them be. You don't know what their situation is. There's no reason for me to aggravate myself or, or you know, make it a bigger deal than it is. But when I was younger, it's a whole different story.

[AJ Jacobs]

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. You better believe it was. I'm very much there with you. I rarely use the horn and I teach my children. I like, I used to use it all the time. I don't know, maybe they didn't. They don't see that it's a. You know, they don't see. Maybe I don't see what's ahead of them. You know, like they want to make a right turn. I don't see what's ahead of them. So maybe I shouldn't be so quick to judge and then blah, blah, the pedestrian there or other times. It's just like I said, it's not. Is it this really going to solve the problem by me getting after this person? Are they really going to like, you know, have A come to Jesus moment. And sit there and think, hey, I better be, you know, more of an obedient driver. No, so you're right. You let it go. Plus, we've heard stories at our age, you never know who that person is that you're going to know.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. I mean, that's the other thing I was just going to mention is there's been many times I pulled into my neighborhood and there's this person driving and like an idiot, and I just either want to, you know, rip around them or honk at him. And then I realize he's in my neighborhood and he's really. He's probably gonna be 3 degrees away from my neighbors.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

They're gonna talk about it. And I don't want to be the jerk, so I have to hold myself back. Like, just chill out, slow down. It's okay. There's no rush here.

[AJ Jacobs]

I would agree with you on the road rage. I think that's a really good example. That might be a lot of men, as they get older, they realize, you know, it's not that big of a deal and I'm not gonna get any. Get there any slower. Right. I mean, you know. You know, another thing is how many times if I cut someone off, I don't even know. Yeah, right. So I might be that person. And I'm grateful that you're not honking at me if I cut you off unintentionally.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

[AJ Jacobs]

You know, here. That I do have, but I never really had to experience it. And I've told this to many people, but I don't have to experience it. Is his. His bears.

[Eddie Judge]

Bears? Okay. That's legit.

[AJ Jacobs]

Scared of it would be a bear because a crocodile, alligator, you could jump on a table, right?

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

These you could probably. Yeah. They say you can run zigzag or whatever, right?

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

You know, dogs, you could probably fight off somewhat. Right. I mean, that doesn't mean you won't go with injury, but you have a chance.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

With a bear, what can you do? You can't climb a tree. You can't even probably hide in your closet or a car. You can't run faster than them. They say the only thing you can do is run downhill because bears, their rear legs or paws are shorter than their front, so they have difficulty running downhill. But how? I don't. I'd have to search for a hill to run down. So just getting to that hill would be a problem. Yeah, I mean, if I could even make it that far. But I'VE always thought if there's some animal to be scared of, it would be a bear. And they say. What do they say to do when you encounter a bear?

[Eddie Judge]

What are you supposed to play dead?

[AJ Jacobs]

I'm sorry, I can't play dead. I will run like crazy. No way.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah, you're right. It is scary. That's. That's something I have feared when I'm out in the woods on my motorcycle, but. And I've even seen videos where bears, you know, come after them.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

And all they do is, you know, throttle it and make a bunch of noise, and that usually scares them. But if there's.

[AJ Jacobs]

I don't know if I could take that chance.

[Eddie Judge]

I don't know either. I don't know.

[AJ Jacobs]

I don't know if I'm gonna sit there and think, well, maybe I'll bang these pots and pans and it'll run away. Or instead of wasting these 30 precious seconds, I'm gonna start running. Right. Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

Or especially if there's a cub around like you're dust. Yeah. If there's a cub around, he's gonna eat you.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

Just to protect our cub.

[AJ Jacobs]

Right, Right.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah, that's. That's a, that's a leg beer. Do you know, speaking of bears, that in California they outlawed bear spray?

[AJ Jacobs]

Oh, I didn't.

[Eddie Judge]

You cannot buy bear spray. When I went to Montana on a, on a motorcycle trip, it was everywhere. I mean, every store lived in Utah.

[AJ Jacobs]

People had it everywhere.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. And when I came home and I don't remember how we were talking about bears, I said, well, I'll just get some bear spray. I mean, it's ice. I discovered it in Montana. I tried to order it. They wouldn't deliver.

[AJ Jacobs]

In California, large canister of, of probably high intense, like pepper spray or something. But it's large and it sprays like immensely far. Yeah, yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

I mean, if it, if it diverts a bear, it must be pretty potent.

[AJ Jacobs]

When was it outlawed?

[Eddie Judge]

Like, I don't know.

[AJ Jacobs]

Recently.

[Eddie Judge]

I don't know. I. I didn't look into it that deep, but I was like, okay, just, you know, take my guns away and my bear spray away.

[AJ Jacobs]

Burglars will use that. If there's a dog, that'll just incapacitate the dog, right?

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

[AJ Jacobs]

I wonder if that's one of the thinkings, but I don't know.

[Eddie Judge]

I don't know what California law thinks.

[AJ Jacobs]

Well, you do, but Utah, in Utah, there were bears when we lived there. And there were bear attacks and unfortunately fatalities. It wasn't common, but it certainly happened my time there.

[Gabe Lehners]

Have you ever looked into the night sky and wondered who or what was flying around up there? We've seen planes, helicopters, hot air balloons, and birds. But what if there's something else, something much more ominous that appears under the COVID of night? Silent, unseen, watching. They may be right above your car late one night as you cruise down the road. Or look like mysterious lights hovering above your home. Drones.

[AJ Jacobs]

Or are they? We used the word drone because it was comfortable to other people. One minute was there and one minute it wasn't.

[Eddie Judge]

Oh, that is beyond creepy.

[Gabe Lehners]

Do you feel like this drone was targeting you specifically?

[AJ Jacobs]

Yes, absolutely.

[Gabe Lehners]

Listen to Obscurum, Invasion of the drum on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Eddie Judge]

Do you have any fear of flying, particularly in what's going on right now with all these planes falling out of the sky?

[AJ Jacobs]

So I have, I do have a fear of flying, but it's never stopped me from traveling anywhere. There's always that concern that the planet go down, but I, I know statistically it's very unlikely, so I shouldn't be worried. And oddly enough, one thing that I, I have done over the past five years is I read a lot about airplanes. I've read a lot about crashes, disasters, why they happen. I've watched a lot of videos. My daughter Annabelle started watching it with me, and she really enjoyed it. She would, I would always try to make a. With it. Right. Like, this is what went wrong. This is. This is why they, you know, the pilot shouldn't have left the child in the cockpit. Believe it or not, that's a story. So.

[Eddie Judge]

Oh, wow.

[AJ Jacobs]

All these different things I would share. I think, okay, might as well get something good out of it. She goes flying with Emily to Ohio, and Emily has a very big fear of flying. Very big. I, I don't. We don't even like to sit next to each other when she's flying because she is. She is a mess. So she flies to Ohio, calls me when they land to get upset with me, because apparently Annabelle, who was like nine at the time, I think. So when the stewardess or the flight attendant's going over, like, some of the things, and the flight attendant's done with all the basic emergency precaution instructions, walks by, and Annabel raises her hand and says, I have a question. And the flight attendant says, yes. She goes, what do we do in the case of a nose dive? And Emily says, the flight attendant's, like, mouth is dropped. That those nine year Old is shouting out, what do we do in the event of a nose dive? So this is prior to her, like five hour flight. Right. So.

[Eddie Judge]

Oh, my God.

[AJ Jacobs]

Just on edge.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. And that's all she's thinking about. Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

But she's also not scared. This little girl's thinking, hey, if our plane starts to go straight down, what do we do? You know? And it's just like, just let me know what I'm supposed to do, you know?

[Eddie Judge]

That's hilarious.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah. So we do that a lot. And I still do. I read a lot about it. I love the idea of flying.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

You know, we went and flew on a, A friend's husband has a G650 and he flies it, though. So he owns it and he flies it. Right.

[Eddie Judge]

Okay.

[AJ Jacobs]

So when we went somewhere a year or two ago, whenever it was, I wasn't in the back taking photos with all these ladies that want to get these fancy photos. I was up in the cockpit in the jump seat.

[Eddie Judge]

Oh, awesome.

[AJ Jacobs]

That, that was a treat. That was.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

Something. And so here I am, kind of scared of flying, but I am facing it because I know statistically it's, it's just unlikely, you know, so. So I kind of think I shouldn't be scared, even though I am.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. I, I don't think I've ever been afraid of flying because the only thing I can think of is the people I've flown with that I've freaked out, have either looked at me for, you know, comfort or weirdness because I'm not afraid. The planes, you know, doing all this stuff and all this weird stuff happening in the plane, I'm like, it's just what planes do. What's the big deal? Right?

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, exactly. Bump in the road.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. So I, I, and I, particularly with plane crashes, I try not to watch them because then I'm going to start, you know, it's kind of like that fear of addiction. I'm gonna have that thought because it's an image I've seen, and if I'm on a plane, I might revert back to that image that I saw. That may or may not happen.

[AJ Jacobs]

Right. So I try with Emily, who's an example of someone has a fear of flying while she's flying. I know what she's doing. She's thinking of crashing.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

So of course she's scared. She's thinking, we're going to crash, we're going to crash, we're going to crash, we're going to crash. And then. So naturally you'd be scared. You Know, I reminded of a time I flew to Colorado, and I could tell you what year it was. It was in 008. So landing in Colorado, in Denver, the Windy City, Right.

[Eddie Judge]

Oh, yeah, I heard about that.

[AJ Jacobs]

Kind of going sideways and this and that and rocking a little bit, landing next to an airplane that had crashed, landed.

[Eddie Judge]

Oh, my God.

[AJ Jacobs]

So out the window, I'm looking, and we see off to the another Runway and like, right in front of us, a plane that is just. Just smashed into the ground. The wings are off and everything's just. The fuselage is broken up. And it was like, oh, that was. It was kind of comical, right? And I was like, oh, yeah, I saw this plane crash just yesterday and here I am landing right next to it.

[Eddie Judge]

So that. That would be kind of scary. Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

So American Airlines flight is going from. I think it was Atlanta or somewhere in the US across seas. Had to divert to Rome with fighter jets escorting them. And there's a lot of video footage of it. You can find it. Because there was a bomb scare. It ended up being not an issue, but there was a bomb there. So two fighter jets were flying alongside it to escort it to Rome. Now, how would you feel if you had a window seat and you see two fighter jets that are escorting you because there's a supposed bomb on board that may go off? Off.

[Eddie Judge]

Well, I'm sure they didn't tell anybody why they were diverted, Right.

[AJ Jacobs]

I don't know, but maybe that would be more scary. Is that, why do I have these fighter jets? Are they on our side?

[Eddie Judge]

The first thing I would think is terrorism. There's some. Something happening. Yeah. That would probably scare me a little.

[AJ Jacobs]

I think that scared the hell out of me.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah, I could see that. And that. That kind of reminds me of a fear that I just remembered I had recently. Recently, as I want to say, six years ago, I went mountain biking to Big Bear, and I hadn't been there in a while. And you know when you're skiing and you get on the lift and you look down, everything's white. So there's no real perception of depth or height or anything like that. But when you're on a dry land and you're on this. This chair and you look down, it's pretty far. And for some reason, I started getting scared. Like, like panic attack scared. And I'm like, what is wrong with me? I'd never, ever been afraid of heights. In fact, I love heights. I love going to the tallest buildings in the world and looking down. To me, that's. That's Just powerful. It feels. It makes me feel confident. Why am I afraid of this right now?

[AJ Jacobs]

Well, it sounds like you're. You're. You. You came across the street because you were thinking about falling. You're thinking, if I fell, I can see where I fall this far, there's trees or whatever, there's rocks, and you're picturing yourself following, and then, yeah, hell, yeah, that's scary.

[Eddie Judge]

And. And of course, the why is. Is it because I'm getting older, that I'm starting to fear these things? Is this going to start happening with other things? Because I don't like to be scared. And if I am scared, I try to flip it and use it as energy to get over the fear. Right, right. So that's kind of why sometimes I say I thrive on. On fear, the fear of failure. I will push myself to the edge as hard as I can so I don't fear the fear of pain. You know, I will figure out a way around it or even push through the pain because I know on the other side of that is no pain. Right. So maybe that's just the way I'm wired, but.

[AJ Jacobs]

Well, that's the same. That's certainly a quality that you should embrace. But when you're on a chairlift, what could you do to. To face the fears? You're kind of. So, yeah, it's understandable that maybe you felt, I don't have control. I could fall. There's nothing I can do about it. Right. I can't step away. I can't. I can't, you know, secure myself any further in any way.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. But the. The complicated part is I've never, ever had that fear because I've been. I've done that, that the chair lifts on. On the summer, riding my mountain bikes in various places, and I've never, ever been afraid.

[AJ Jacobs]

Did you get sweats or shaky or anything or.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah, I got a little scared. I got shaky. Yeah, like, stop looking down kind of thing where like, normally I'm looking at for fear.

[AJ Jacobs]

Enjoying the ride. Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

Have you been on that list since?

[Eddie Judge]

I have. I have. Again. It's one of those things, like, it scares me, but I'm gonna keep doing it until I am no longer scared. And it worked. And I think I ended up getting like three or four runs that day. But it was just a weird feeling to think how 40, 50 years later am I feeling fear? I shouldn't be fearing fear. I mean, I know this is just the way I handle fear. You know, I thrive on it sometimes. And I Don't like it to debilitate me, so I try to convert it to energy.

[AJ Jacobs]

Well, that's interesting. You know what's interesting would be a statistic on how many people actually suffer death from the thing they feared the most. Right. It's probably very little. Right. Like, I might be scared of a bear my whole life and I never come across one. I never. So what? So I wasted whatever time it was being scared of a bear or fear of flying, but have. You know, you could spend your whole life being scared of flying, but you never really have a. An airline crash on you. So.

[Eddie Judge]

Right.

[AJ Jacobs]

You know, it's like we're scared for, I guess you could say no reason. When there's probably things that we're not fearful of that are actually going to cause us some harm.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[Gabe Lehners]

Have you ever looked into the night sky and wondered who or what was flying around up there? We've seen planes, helicopters, hot air balloons, and birds. But what if there's something else, something much more ominous that appears under the COVID of night? Silent, unseen, watching. They may be right above your car.

[Eddie Judge]

Car.

[Gabe Lehners]

Late one night as you cruise down the road. Or look like mysterious lights hovering above your home. Drones.

[AJ Jacobs]

Or are they? We used the word drone because it was comfortable to other people. One minute was there and one minute it wasn't.

[Eddie Judge]

Oh, that is beyond creepy.

[Gabe Lehners]

Do you feel like this drone was targeting you specifically?

[AJ Jacobs]

Yes, absolutely.

[Gabe Lehners]

Listen to Obscurum, Invasion of the Drones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Eddie Judge]

Fear debilitates a lot of people from living their life. You know, fear of, you know, when you start a business. Like, you're afraid to start a business because you're afraid that you're gonna fail. And you don't start a relationship because you're afraid you're going to get hurt. Right. You don't have kids because you're afraid you're not going to be able to afford them. And, you know, various things like that. Do you. Do you fear love at all? Have you ever been afraid to fall in love?

[AJ Jacobs]

No, I don't. I don't think I can. I know I never really thought enough about love to be scared of it. I never really did. I mean, I guess.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

No, no, the fear. As far as family goes, the fear is. My children is worry that. That they will grow up with troubles or difficulties or they might have their own addictions or things that are, you know. You know, prevent them from living a life of, you know, comfortable life that. That would Be it. I don't fear, you know, falling in love. I guess I do have concerns that Emily would, you know, if Emily and I were to part ways, I certainly wouldn't like that. So I wouldn't do everything I could to prevent that from happening. I know coming on the show, Emily joining the housewives. Yeah, I guess you could say I had fear of that, because, you know, statistically and historically, you see families fall apart on the show. Whether it's coincidence or the show or how they handle it, I can't say. But it does happen. And my concern was for her to then maybe take her life in a different direction. You know, I'm better than this, or getting a big head or wanting to be gone so much to pursue whatever opportunities come her way that she wouldn't be around us anymore. Yeah, those were my concerns, and I did express that to her, and that was. That was my main concern about the show was family unit. And I'm very glad that that didn't end up being the case. And it certainly didn't stop me from allowing. It didn't. It didn't cause me to prevent Emily from being on the show, nor could I. Right. I mean, that I can't make that decision for her solely, but it. That was a very big worrisome for me. And that's why the first couple years, I wasn't very comfortable on camera. Wasn't because of the camera, was because I was just really on edge about, where is this gonna go?

[Eddie Judge]

Right. That makes sense.

[AJ Jacobs]

And. And that that was it. And then, fortunately, we've overcome that and realized that that's not the case. And so, you know, we're able to navigate her being on the show and being a part of all the ladies and everything, you know, during this time. So, yeah, I mean, if anything, it's made us stronger because we've worked together on how. How to navigate this, how to navigate her schedule, the opportunities that come her way. How do we. What parts do we team up on? What parts are just for you?

[Eddie Judge]

And so, yeah, I. I could see that. And I think when we first got together, my wife and I, the camera didn't scare me. I. I think I remember talking to you about taking acting classes when I was younger. So cameras weren't totally, you know, foreign. They still kind of put me, you know, they're there.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah. You know, they're there.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. Now, I know they're there, but in the beginning, I don't know if I remember telling you this, but first time we ever filmed, I was all gung ho, ready to go. I'm like, I could do this. I've been on camera before. You know, this is going to be easy and just be myself. How hard can that be?

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

It wasn't until the production walked into the house and they all introduced themselves, very nice. And then suddenly these big ass cameras walked in and I looked at it and I turned white. My wife said I backed myself against the wall and I said, I can't do this.

[AJ Jacobs]

It became real at that point, I.

[Eddie Judge]

Guess it became real and I just remembered I was actually afraid. And of course, seven shots of tequila later and I think half a bottle of wine, that took away all the fear. And I did stupid shit. That was the very first time we ever filmed where we did the tub scene. I don't know if you remember the tub scene.

[AJ Jacobs]

I know of it. Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. It was just. I mean, where do you go from there? Right? But that's a moment I was, I was actually afraid of when, when I first got on the show. Yeah, I, I was afraid.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah. Well, you know, there's, I don't think, I don't think if anyone said they weren't afraid to be on a show, I, I don't know if I would believe them. There might be different levels of, of concern and worrisome and fear, you know, fear, how they look on tv. Fear if they are going to get along, if they're going to be liked or hated. There's got, I mean, no one can say that it's jump in and, and got no problems with it.

[Eddie Judge]

I, I think ultimately though, it's how you handle it, right? And how you handle fear because it's, it's up there with jealousy. Jealousy is an emotional feeling, an irrational emotional feeling that sometimes can, you know, be quantified if your wife or your partner is, you know, flirting or something or trying to make you jealous so that they like you more. I, I guess it's a manipulation tool. But when I was young, I, I made a determination that I am not. I'm gonna let jealousy get the best of me. And if, even if I am jealous, I'm not going to show it because it's just going to produce negative emotions and negative results.

[AJ Jacobs]

So does that mean you experience some jealousy and then it was then that you realized what you were experiencing and so you made that effort to, you know, stay away from that?

[Eddie Judge]

I think so. Which, which goes along the same lines as fear, you know, And I don't know how old I was when I finally realized fear is Debilitating. And if you let it cripple you, you're not going to do anything in life or experience anything in life or really live life. You know, I. I sense. I see fear as a limitation for people that just.

[AJ Jacobs]

Oh, absolutely.

[Eddie Judge]

Sometimes it's justifiable. You know, let's say you had a traumatic experience when you were young. This is. This is probably a terrible example. But let's say you were molested when you were young.

[AJ Jacobs]

Absolutely.

[Eddie Judge]

You know, continually molested. And it becomes sort of a normal thing. And then you grow up as an adult and you become a pedophile because of what happened to you. And you think it's normal when in reality it's. It's not a normal thing and society is not going to accept that. But do you fear that society is not going to accept it, or do you fear that you're going to get caught and go to jail?

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

What is it? I don't know.

[AJ Jacobs]

I guess fear would be acceptable if it's for your own safety. Right. So it's fear of. Of, you know, like. Like in your example of maybe growing up in an unfortunate household where there's abuse. So now you're protective of your. Just your safety.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

So I'm gonna stay away from this type of person because I've experienced that they hurt me physically or they harm my lifestyle.

[Eddie Judge]

Right.

[AJ Jacobs]

Not just they hurt my feelings, so they said something rude, but they actually, you know, debilitate me from the living a life. Right. So, yeah. You know, speaking of fear, though, we have a. We had. We have a foster dog and. Which I imagine will not be a foster dog, but for now, Emily. Emily keeps trying to sell me on it being a foster. It's our third dog that we have right now.

[Eddie Judge]

Oh, my gosh.

[AJ Jacobs]

Very, very scared of everything.

[Eddie Judge]

Okay.

[AJ Jacobs]

Six months old, we believe never really. I'm guessing, based on her behavior, never experienced human interaction, at least good human interaction, you know, compassion and whatnot. And it's. And it's. She is always protecting herself. She's running away from me. She never turns her back on me or Emily. She's softening up to Emily now, but she's very fearful. And. And it's. It's natural for her. Right. Because it. She's experienced things that might cause her harm and injury and death. So she's doing what she can to stay alive. It's. Right. It's a survival. So it's. It's based on her experiences. And there's no doubt in my mind that she's just Trying to stay alive. Right. It's not that she's, you know, a wimp, right? Whatever. Experience abuse or whatever it was, she's trying to stay alive. And so I guess humans can, you know, if we're. If I've experienced, you know, being injured by a weapon, and so now I choose to stay away from that weapon. Yeah, I think that'd be pretty valid.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah, that is valid.

[Gabe Lehners]

Have you ever looked into the night sky and wondered who or what was flying around up there? We've seen planes, helicopters, hot air balloons, and birds. But what if there's something else, something much more ominous that appears under the COVID of night? Silent, unseen, watching. They may be right above your car late one night as you cruise down the road. Or look like mysterious lights hovering above your home. Drones.

[AJ Jacobs]

Or are they? We used the word drone because it was comfortable to other people. One minute was there, and one minute it wasn't.

[Eddie Judge]

Oh, that is beyond creepy.

[Gabe Lehners]

Do you feel like this drone was targeting you specifically?

[AJ Jacobs]

Yes, absolutely.

[Gabe Lehners]

Listen to Obscurum. Invasion of the Drones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Eddie Judge]

Going back to love, which is kind of along the same lines of what we were just talking about. For me, I think I fell in love for the first time as a teenager. My first girlfriend. I was madly in love. And I was afraid, you know, because growing up, to me, love was so important and so valuable and so sentimental, and you just cannot fall in love with just anybody.

[AJ Jacobs]

Right.

[Eddie Judge]

It's like marrying. You can't just marry anybody. You got to marry somebody that you can spend the rest of your life with or somebody that you love. So when I fell in love, it was. It was awesome. I thought she was going to be the one for the rest of my life.

[AJ Jacobs]

And sure enough, what was your fear that she would.

[Eddie Judge]

It wasn't a fear. It wasn't a fear. But when she broke up and we broke up, the pain was so deep and so emotional and so detrimental that I said, I am never falling in love again.

[AJ Jacobs]

Wow.

[Eddie Judge]

And it took seven years for me to finally fall in love again. Fell in love with this beautiful woman that just was everything that I, you know, ever wanted. And unfortunately, five years later, that relationship ended. And again, debilitating. I couldn't leave the house for three days. I was in the. In the fetal position, and I cried. And it was the hardest pain I've. I've experienced next to my broken collarbone. And then.

[AJ Jacobs]

And. And how did you overcome either of those?

[Eddie Judge]

I think. Well, my dad you know, one thing I'll never forget, he said during that time, was, just get up and put one foot in front of the other, and you will get past it. And it took time. Yeah, it definitely took time. But again, the second time, I was heartbroken, devastated. I said, I'm never falling in love again. Yeah, but. But I was in my. Probably my mid-20s at the time, and I decided, you know what? I'm not going to look for love anymore. I'm just going to be partying, having a good time, working, take care of.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yourself kind of thing.

[Eddie Judge]

Take care of myself?

[AJ Jacobs]

You won't bring anyone in your little circle.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. And then I fell in love again. And it wasn't deep love, but it was sort of like, I don't know if it's the right person, you know? And even though I didn't fall in love with her, I introduced her to all my friends, especially the very critical ones that, you know, just protect me. And they loved her. They said, she's amazing. She's so different. She's awesome. And I ended up marrying her. The night before, I was freaking out and just like, am I doing the right thing? I don't know. I was literally sitting on the floor.

[AJ Jacobs]

Wow.

[Eddie Judge]

Just contemplating my life. And she came to me. She's like, are you sure you want to do this? Like, I don't know.

[AJ Jacobs]

Everyone wants to hear. Right?

[Eddie Judge]

And of course, that didn't last very long. And then when I met Tamara, it was one of those things, like, that's it. I'm not falling in love, not falling forward again. I'm just gonna have a good time. And the chemistry was there. What I think I experienced the very first time I saw her was love at first sight. But I wasn't ready to let it happen. But when I saw her, I saw birds, I saw stars. I got all this tingly feelings in my body, but I. I did everything I could to suppress it.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

Because I didn't want to be vulnerable like that again. Right. And the other part of it is, she was married at the time, so why am I gonna pursue something that I'm not gonna, you know, be able to have? Right. But why am I getting these feelings? It was such a weird situation. And it wasn't until. Not even, you know, when she left her husband and we went on a first date. It was probably just before, like, a month before we got married. You know, leading up to it, planning and everything. You know, it's about a year of all that, and I'm just going through the Motions. I'm like, yeah, I guess I'm getting married. But I think it was when I was sitting at the altar looking at her that I hit me. Me. Like, holy. I'm in love. This is happening. And what I've experienced in my life, at the end of the day is I. I rather be in love and feel the pain of breaking up than never, ever feeling love. Because what I know now in my 50s, is even today, my love just gets getting deeper and deeper with Tamara. The more time I spend with her, the more challenges we have with life and the more things we experience together is. It's bringing me deeper and deeper, connected with. There were. I'm. I'm getting back, I think, close to that level of love when I first experienced it as a teenager, where I thought, like, oh, I found it. This is the greatest feeling in my life. And.

[AJ Jacobs]

Right. You're completely fulfilled and don't need anything else. Everything's great. Yep.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. And. And. And I'm there now. But it took a while to get there, which is the interesting journey for me. Like, I'm not afraid to fall in love, but I have. I was afraid when I was younger because it was so painful. And there was a period of seven years between love, another period of five years between love, and then this one was maybe 15 years where I started feeling like, okay, I can trust this person. I can open up to this person and give my heart and be vulnerable and talk to her and, you know, share her, you know, with her. What. What really scares me and what I really want to accomplish in life. And I say that because, you know, there's this. This stereotype of men being men. Men are not supposed to be afraid of anything.

[AJ Jacobs]

No, you're not allowed to cry. You're not supposed to cry.

[Eddie Judge]

You're not supposed to cry. You're not supposed to be afraid. You're not supposed to be vulnerable. What are your. What are your thoughts on that? Do you agree or disagree?

[AJ Jacobs]

No, I agree. You know, we talked earlier. You know, you tell the little kid to walk it off, get back on your bike and go, you're fine. Tough it out. Right? And then the girls, we don't. We don't. Generally speaking, we don't say that. We. We put a band aid on it. We hug them, you know, this and that. So it's understandable that you would grow up. Not you, you, but men in general would grow up thinking we're not supposed to cry. And women won't like that. Right. If I sit there and cry on My third date. Date with whomever. I don't think there's going to be a fourth date. Right. That's what we're thinking. Right. She's like, maybe that's not the case. But then that begs the question, do. Are women taught that, hey, you know, men shouldn't be crying. He's weak. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know, you know, I. I was married prior, and without finding fault, anything, she left and. She left and moved out of state and took my two kids.

[Eddie Judge]

And that was that heartbreaking for you?

[AJ Jacobs]

Oh, yeah. There was no plan. It was just. They were gone. It's different if it's, hey, this is what I want, my life. I'm gonna leave you and I'm gonna move there. And, you know, we figured it out, but that wasn't the case. It was. They were gone. And that probably, as we're talking about this is probably what my worry was with the family unit when Emily got on the show. Maybe I would have had that concern anyway, but I'm sure I was thinking, I'm going to lose my kids again. Right?

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

If you move, you know, you leave me and this now, or the family breaks up, I'm not going to see my kids. Same.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

So that was, you know, there's no doubt in my mind that that caused a lot of worry for me with the family unit being broken up again. It was. It was a pretty bad experience, you know, at that time, and not seeing your kids for a couple weeks, not knowing where they are and trying to find them and then. And then having to transition back into that. And so, yeah, you know, I. And I know Emily and I have. I mean, I don't think it's a secret. We've had times where we think we want to split up or this and that because we're just in some heated moment, and then we. We both start to think, is this what we want? Do we. We're just going to trade one set of problems for another. So do we want to lose our kids? We want to break up the family, and then we kind of come to terms and. I know. So I'm a big believer in just kind of trying to work it out and keep the family together. And that might have to do with what I've experienced before, but, yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

Do you think the difference in your religion scared you, getting into the. That deep of religion of a relationship with Emily?

[AJ Jacobs]

A little bit. Because, you know, you worry about being judged or. Or, you know, having different outlooks on life. But, you know, fortunately, I Think both of us have the same outlook on life, which is family is important and family unit and respecting each other and kind of, you know, living a, you know, kind of a decent life and respecting one another's views. I know Emily, as she's gotten older, she's kind of softened up and become a little bit, you know, as we all should. And so, you know, it hasn't really caused any rifts in our relationship, that's for sure. Yeah, sometimes scheduling issues and things like that. You know, I go to church on Sundays, sometimes she comes, sometimes she doesn't. I just let her choose.

[Eddie Judge]

Okay.

[AJ Jacobs]

But I always take the kids, so, you know, that, that's a little awkward on those days because. But, but we respect each other's, you.

[Eddie Judge]

Know, I mean, that's, that's super important in any relationship is to respect each other because once you lose that, you know, it's, it's hard to come back. Let's talk a little bit about your experience in becoming a lawyer. I know you took the bar three times. Were you ever afraid that you weren't going to make it or were you just determined?

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, that was, it was a little bit of both. You know, I was pretty determined, but I also was fearful that it would never happen. Not to blame, not to place blame elsewhere. But it was really tough while this show was going that I'm supposed to sit there and also juggle my older two kids and their schedules with their mother, who. Which was not the easiest. So juggling that, juggling, you know, what was she? A three or four year old daughter with two, you know, two year old twins. And then my wife's rigorous schedule and me having to quit my job and then prepare and finances, as we've talked about earlier, it was very hard on me. And so, yeah, for that reason, I thought I'm never gonna pass. Because under these circumstances.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

At least for me, under these circumstances, it's not going to happen.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. I mean, it's like looking at Mount Whitney and going, how the hell am I gonna do this? Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

And unless I'm gonna do something different, which is all those factors, unless I remove some of those, like, you know, Emily's at home all the time, or our finances are in order, or the mother of my older two children was more cooperative. Like then it might have been eat, but I was like, nothing's changing. I'm still having to go through this hellhole, you know, and Emily's sitting there, you know, when I'm supposed to kind of accommodate her schedule and take care of the kids and. And no blame on Emily. She was doing what she could, but it was. Yeah, it was very worrisome that I would never pass. And I'm just gonna be this endless. You know, I'm in this endless pursuit of getting a bar license, and it never happened. I had one Utah, but I didn't have one in California, so it was. It was. And the other fear was embarrassment. Sure. There's always embarrassment, you know, being in, feeling inferior. You know, there's people that have been in worse conditions in mind that pass. Right. So it can be done. And here I am not being able to do it. Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. But you did it.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

And. And what do you think contributed the most for you to accomplish that goal to pass the bar?

[AJ Jacobs]

You know, it was. It was just kept put into. You know, I. I'll be honest, I don't think I did anything different as I should have. I was really. First of all, it was quite a while ago, so. So my memory is a little vague, but it was just, you know, they did change the. The. The guidelines of the bar exam, which kind of worked in my favor as much as, you know, I don't want to say that, but it did work in my favor, so that kind of gave me the little edge I needed. I'm pretty certain I would have eventually passed, but nonetheless, that. That's where I was. So it was. It was a scary time. It was a scary time.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. Have you. I always thought about this when I was working with my dad, like, the fear of going to court. Do you go to court a lot?

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, I don't. I don't hear that I have a fear in terms of just doing well. Yeah, we're doing well for the client. Doing well for. For the owner of the law firm. Yeah. I'm not scared in front of a judge because.

[Eddie Judge]

Were you, though, the very first time, like your first case?

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, I could. I could. I was nervous.

[Eddie Judge]

Nervous.

[AJ Jacobs]

I was practicing in Utah and I was thrown into judges all the time.

[Eddie Judge]

Oh, that's right. Okay.

[AJ Jacobs]

But it was. It was. I was nervous because, you know, you feel people are looking at you now. You're gonna look like a beginner. You don't know what you're doing. You know, you don't have the proper terminology. Right. And you sound like an idiot. Yeah, that was a concern. But, yeah. In front of a. Because of the judge. I was not scared. No. Oh, yeah. They're just regular people, so. Yeah, they really are. Of course, I know pretty much lawyers that don't Want to be lawyers. Right. They think they know better. And, you know, have I been ripped apart by a judge in front people? Absolutely. Really? Oh, I think everyone has. Absolutely. And that's more embarrassing than it is fearful that for me, that's embarrassing. I know my sister, she's overcome it, but she. I think she would even vomit before she went before a judge.

[Eddie Judge]

Oh, really?

[AJ Jacobs]

Really scared. Yeah. But she also would admit it. She wasn't hiding. And. But I don't know what happened. Then a few years go by, you know, we kind of of, you know, she's doing her thing, I'm doing mine, and I don't really connect with her on that level. And then all of a sudden, I realized, oh, she's going to court, and she seems fine. She's taking court calls, she's doing it online, she's going in person. So she overcame it somehow. I should find out how she did that.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. It's just interesting times. My neighbor's an attorney as well, and I see a lot of him, you know, during the day, you know, because I have a pretty easy schedule. And. And I asked him recently, like, don't you go to court anymore? It's like, zoom. I don't even have to get dressed anymore. Fear completely away. Like, just the thought of being in chambers and fighting, you know, with the opponent and talking to a judge, that scares me. That, like, that would drive me. It spins my head. But I also see that, you know, once you've done that a few times, like anything else, you become very proficient at it and the fear goes away. And now, you know what you're saying, doing. And that just takes practice, Right. Practicing law.

[AJ Jacobs]

Right. Well, they always say you fear what you don't know, right? Yeah. So if you've been there, you've experienced it many times, you've ridden your bike on the freeway many times. You're.

[Eddie Judge]

It's.

[AJ Jacobs]

Now it's no longer an unknown to worry about.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

So speaking up, do you. Did you ever fear being a lawyer, or was that just something you always wanted to do?

[AJ Jacobs]

Well, I kind of. Kind of went that direction because my parents wouldn't let me become a cop. Okay. Like, literally, I interviewed, I took the exams, I took the physicals. I even got, you know.

[Eddie Judge]

Oh, wow.

[AJ Jacobs]

As a, you know, for PD in Orange.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

And then I had to back out, probably mostly because of my parents and, you know, them having a worry and they were always scared and they didn't like it, and probably they want me sitting in an office and yada yada. Yada. Yeah. And, you know, maybe if I really, really wanted it, I should. I could have done it, but, you know, I made the choice to back out. So. Okay, I was fearful of my mother. We could say.

[Eddie Judge]

That'S a big deal. But no, if.

[AJ Jacobs]

If in my profession, what was I fearful of? It would probably be being successful, you know, holding a job, earning more money every year and doing well. Not in front of the judge or in front of a client or co workers or anything.

[Gabe Lehners]

Have you ever looked into the night sky and wondered who or what was flying around up there? We've seen planes, helicopters, hot air balloons, and birds. But what if there's something else, something much more ominous that appears under the COVID of night? Silent, unseen, watching. They may be right above your car late one night as you cruise down the road, or look like mysterious lights hovering above your home. Drones.

[AJ Jacobs]

Or are they? We used the word drone because it was comfortable to other people. One minute was there and one minute it wasn't.

[Eddie Judge]

Oh, that is beyond creepy.

[Gabe Lehners]

Do you feel like this drone was targeting you specifically?

[AJ Jacobs]

Yes, absolutely.

[Gabe Lehners]

Listen to Obscurum. Invasion of the Drones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Eddie Judge]

Were you at all concerned or afraid of starting that podcast with your wife? I think it's called Legally, Legally Brunette.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, no, no, my wife is. I mean, Emily is. She loves that stuff. She could talk about it all day long. She, she overworks to, to study those cases and learn the fact, you know, the interesting cases that are kind of of, you know, across media, high profile. So I knew that she would take the lead on that, and I think she does really well. And my place in that, I've learned was I'll just be the viewer that asks the questions. Right.

[Eddie Judge]

Okay.

[AJ Jacobs]

I'm asking the questions that the viewers want to know. So I go in, she has more of the, the knowledge, and then I ask the. These lay term questions. Right. And I ask her those questions. And so we have a good connection that way. Here she is presenting the cases, talking about, and then I ask the questions on what I think is on behalf of the viewers because, you know, you can get really legally in. In the way you talk. Yeah. Kind of breaking her down. Yeah. So no, we do well with that and that. That's enjoyable for me.

[Eddie Judge]

Awesome, awesome. How often do you do that?

[AJ Jacobs]

It's twice a month.

[Eddie Judge]

Twice a month. Okay.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, we're doing it twice a month. And right now she's covering the Blake Lively and Baldoni case. That's a Big one. I don't know if you know that one. I'm sure the viewers do. That's a big one. There's some PR dispute suits and creative differences on the set of ends with us. And so there's some sexual harassment allegations and.

[Eddie Judge]

Wow.

[AJ Jacobs]

Things like that. It's getting pretty heated, I think, with, with Blake Lively being such a big star. That's caught a lot of attention from people. The other case that she's doing that we like to cover is the Menendez trial.

[Eddie Judge]

Okay, all right.

[AJ Jacobs]

So she's doing that. I'm sure you've heard of that one.

[Eddie Judge]

I have, yeah. There's a whole documentary on that.

[AJ Jacobs]

There's a lot of documentaries on that. So she's fascinated by that one.

[Eddie Judge]

Because that is interesting.

[AJ Jacobs]

The cases where, you know, you could kind of go either way, you can argue both points and that's what makes it interesting to talk about.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. What do you fear, if at all, about practicing law?

[AJ Jacobs]

I think disappointing clients. You know, clients, unfortunately, they naturally, they come in with expectations. Right.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

I'm gonna win this case. I, I practice workers compensation. The people that get injured on the job. We represent the insurance companies and employers. Right, okay. So the injured worker gets injured. They have a right to file a claim because it's a no fault state. So the, the employer should cover their injuries if they're work related. Right, Right. So it's a right that they have and I support that. But we represent the insurance company's employees tax. So, you know, a lot of times the employers will just. Without really knowing all the details, they think, no, this is a no brainer. That guy's a jerk. He got hurt playing soccer on the weekend and not here. It's like, yeah, but we gotta go through this process to get that to surface, if that's even the case. So disappointing clients is my concern. So I always try to give them realistic expectations.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

My very first case that I tried all by myself.

[Eddie Judge]

Okay.

[AJ Jacobs]

Was an adoption case. So a family wanted to adopt the child and. And terminate the parental rights of the father, who was an absent.

[Eddie Judge]

Which is really hard.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah. And it's, it's a tough one too, because, you know, it's the emotions involved.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

My fear in that case was not winning because this loving family and the stepfather, who just did everything for this child and was the father as far as I was concerned, because the biological father was mia, like truly MIA until the case services. Then of course, he wants to act like he's father of the year and stop everything. That was my Fear was then this family leaving the courtroom, not having the ability to adopt the child, and then now they can't bring up this case for a number of years.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

And so now they're stuck in this position of now we have this biological father who's been brought back into the life because, because of the lawsuit, and now he's causing havoc in our household. And that was. I was terrified that I would lose this case. That was all on me there. I had no partners, I was working by myself. And, you know, and I had never tried a case before. So I'm up there putting witnesses on the stand, asking questions, doing all this stuff, trying to prepare a case. And I didn't know the threshold, you know, how much is enough.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

I don't have the experience to say, yeah, we got enough evidence.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

So I just had to keep going and going and going and I probably overdid it. Anyway, we. I succeeded, but.

[Eddie Judge]

Oh, good.

[AJ Jacobs]

That was my fear. Was this family heartbreaking, you know, this family.

[Eddie Judge]

Well, how many times have you heard of cases like that where a kid of a drug induced family, you know, can't handle it, they're in jail, the kid ends up in, you know, foster home. And finally a family, you know, sees the connection and raises the kid and, you know, goes through all the proper channels, finally adopts the child, and 10 years later the parents get out of jail, even though they obviously have to sign a release for the kid to be adopted. Now they want to be back in the kid's life. How do you, how do you, would you handle that?

[AJ Jacobs]

Well, I've never experienced that much. But if the parents rights are terminated, you can only have two parents, right?

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

So if, if a fa. If a husband will call him. If a husband wants to adopt the, the wife's son or child, you can, you cannot terminate a biological father's rights and parental rights without someone stepping in his shoes. Right. Okay, so in your example, if I understood it correctly, you have new adopted adoptive family. Right. So a mother and father, presumably a mother and father, adopt the child. Now the biological parents are no longer. They have no rights anymore.

[Eddie Judge]

Right.

[AJ Jacobs]

As if they don't exist. The records are sealed, everything's gone. But when the child becomes an adult, then they might choose to search out their biological father or parents to answer some questions. So. Okay, I guess it was, it was a long way to answer your question. I don't think the original biological parents can come back into their lives once they're terminated. They have no rights.

[Eddie Judge]

Okay, interesting.

[AJ Jacobs]

So, but, but I don't, I don't have any experience in, in that area. In the example you gave, I have not gotten that far along. When I was practicing family law to, To.

[Eddie Judge]

How did you get this case being in workers comp?

[AJ Jacobs]

I'll tell you how. So I, Well, I wasn't workers comp. I was in Utah at the time. So I was practicing family law. And Emily was just like, you know, you can practice on your own, it's no problem. You can do it. Let's just do it. Do it on your own. So I went on my own, rented a little office, this. And she sent out a mailer, like across the county to every house. And these cases are coming in. And this one came in to adopt. I'm like, I've never done this before. She goes, oh, yeah, I can help you. I can do that. No problem. Because she worked in family law in la, she's like, I can help you with that. I'm like, okay. Then like, the next week she went and got a job. She worked for some law firm. And she's like, I can't help you anymore. I was all on my own. She never came to court with me. Nothing. Never came to any meeting. I was on my own. Anyway, that was, was, that was how that came. So then all these cases started coming in that were family law cases. And I learned I don't like family law because, yeah, it's too emotional. It's. It's necessary.

[Eddie Judge]

Yes.

[AJ Jacobs]

And I praise those that do it.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

It's an imperfect system. It can't be perfect. It's. No, you know, you can't have a black and white letter law that, that's going to be equal across the board. I know you. I'm sure you've experienced things, know enough that there, it doesn't work like that. You know, there's. It's, it's so hard. It's a round peg in a square hole. Right. Or a square peg in a round hole. It's. It's just doesn't work.

[Eddie Judge]

It's. Arguably one of the hardest types of law to practice is family law.

[AJ Jacobs]

Oh, it's. I can't stand it.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

It's just too heartbreaking. And I praise those that are able to do it because it needs to be done.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah, yeah. No, I.

[AJ Jacobs]

You know what the thing is, it's so emotional. You get these people coming in your office, just shouting out all this stuff. He did this. He did this. He did this, this. Yeah, that's great. That's not, that's not A legal argument. That's more of an emotional argument. I need legal stuff. You know, him sleeping with someone else doesn't matter.

[Eddie Judge]

All right?

[AJ Jacobs]

Crappy as that is, it doesn't matter. He's still a dad. Yes, but that's not fair. Or the other way around. I don't want to pay her a dime. Well, too bad. You signed up for it. That's what you got to do.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah, yeah. And, and you have to do that to protect the family because there are some legit at situations where men, you know, they, they, especially if they own their own business, suddenly they don't make any money. Right. How does that work?

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely. I can't, I tell you, I can't.

[Eddie Judge]

Stand, I can't stand those.

[AJ Jacobs]

I tell you, a deadbeat dad is. I can't. Especially because I follow the rules. I cannot stand that.

[Eddie Judge]

So, yeah, see, that would, that would drive me nuts. One of the things that my, my father gave me the option to go to law school, and I just couldn't do it because there's this one part of law I can't wrap my head around. I understand it and, and, and, and, and I believe it's, it's a necessity. But when you become an attorney and you have to defend a criminal or you have to defend somebody you know committed the crime, how do you, you.

[AJ Jacobs]

Know, I've never done.

[Eddie Judge]

Get him out of it.

[AJ Jacobs]

That's a very valid thought. I've never had done criminal defense, but I know one way to look at it is so you have, you know, an obviously guilty, like O.J. right. One you never asked a client. Right, Right. You don't want to know. But if you know they did it, like let's say they admit, yeah, I did it, I beat the crap out of her. Right. Well, then what you're trying to do is not say that the person's, not that the person's innocent. You're trying to make sure that they don't get, get any more of a punishment than you think they're entitled to. So in a way, you're kind of controlling the system that way. It's not. I'm trying to get this person off and, and out in the world and say he's innocent. It's, let's see if we can reduce the charges. Let's see if we can get it with and reason. And so that's. And again, how you have to, like, like maybe you don't agree with the death penalty. Right, right. You know, you're going to try to pursue Life in prison or some lesser sentence and the death penalty. Negotiate that. So you're not. You know, there's a big difference between not guilty and innocent is you didn't do it. Not guilty. By law, you're not guilty. So if you look at it that way, it might help.

[Eddie Judge]

What about those cases where they're wrongfully incarcerated? You know, and. And it's going back to what we were talking about, family law. It's. It's an imperfect system. Right. So when it comes down to it, the law is not the law. It's not like black and white. There's so many levels and moving parts. Particularly with cases like the O.J. case where he had money, he had connections, he had. Yeah, there's a lot of that, and there's always been a lot of that. You know, when it comes to. One of. One of my biggest pet peeves of law is, you know, you try to sue Big Pharma, well, they're going to win solely because they have so much more money to outlaw you. Right. Or outlaw your youth. So.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Eddie Judge]

They make your life hell. And it's just so hard to win those cases, even though they are responsible for what happened. So that's one of the things that.

[AJ Jacobs]

It's like a casino. They're always going to win because they never run out of money. Yeah, you will run out of money.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

They will not ever. That's playing and playing and playing until you quit. And that's how it is. In your example, Big Pharma, they'll. They'll play all day long.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

And it's. And they have the means to the money, too. And it. They're incentivized to win much more. Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

And. And they'll just hire a law firm that has a hundred lawyers that are going to work on this one case.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, Right.

[Eddie Judge]

And it's not fair. It is not fair, especially with. When it comes to discovery. I mean, you can get buried in that stupid.

[AJ Jacobs]

But, you know, there's comp. It's such a unique area of law procedurally that we've come across lawyers that may do very well in their niche and are very successful, and then they think that they're going to try to help their brother in this work comp. Case. And, you know, you mop the floor with them because they just don't know how it works. Works. And so in your example of big. If I were to try to sue Big Pharma, or anyone were that doesn't have the experience, it's not even a matter of money at that point, it's a matter of knowing what you're doing. And they know all the, the tricks and the loopholes and things that you don't.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

And that's how it was with workers. Comp. When we get people, oh, I've done personal injury before. Yeah. It's not the same thing. You might be very. You might do very well in your area, but it's not the same thing. So you're at a disadvantage already. And so that's the example with, you know, the deep pockets. Right. They have the experience.

[Eddie Judge]

That was one of the. Actually, that was the main reason why when I was running my dad's practice, we made sure we focused on HOA law, bankruptcy, transactional foreclosures, because it's a very niche industry.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

That just grew big time in California and across the nation, but mostly in California. There's so many HOAs here, it's ridiculous. But I, I made sure my dad wanted to dabble into all kinds of other stuff. I had to reel him in. Like, come on, dad, get out of there. We're not doing family law. We're not doing estate planning. We're just doing HOA law.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

And if we, if we weren't great at that, I don't think we would have been as successful as we were because the firm did really great. You know, you really just have to.

[AJ Jacobs]

Find one thing and excel in it. Right?

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. It'd be really, really good at that one thing. Except when it comes to medicine, I'm not a doctor or anything, but, you know, I believe that a doctor should know how all the body parts work together, you know, instead of sending you, you know, to seven doctors for one ailment.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Eddie Judge]

Doesn't make any sense.

[AJ Jacobs]

Absolutely. Or they should have a team. Maybe they collectively. Right. So they kind of work together. So it's like, you know what? I'm not, I'm not a specialty. I'm not a specialist in the cardiovascular, but my partner right here is. And then they can work together instead of it going to another office and trying to find someone and. Yeah, you should have a one. One stop shop. Right?

[Eddie Judge]

You should. Yeah. Where, you know, everybody's communicating and talking to each other. My other pet peeve with the pharmaceutical or the doctor, the healthcare industry is they'll put you on a drug that's going to resolve one issue, then that drug creates other issues, so they have to put you on an another drug to fix that issue. So it's Just perpetual.

[AJ Jacobs]

The classic example, the classic example is, you know, Emily gets a uti, right? And my daughter both had Utah and they're like, here, take this antibiotic. But it'll cause a yeast infection. So now take this. You know, it's like, well, yeah. Which is it?

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah, it's just, it's. I don't know. I don't get it. I don't like it, but I don't get it. Anyways, I think that's it. I think we talked about being afraid. You know, I. Coming into this conversation, I didn't know what I was going to really say because I thrive on fear. I make it a point that if it scares me, it's worth the pursuit or worth the fight. If it's not scary, it's kind of like, eh, I don't really, I'm not that interested. And I was really curious to see what you thought, where your stance on fear is, because I know this generation nowadays are very sensitive and you know, the men today, you know, they're okay with crying in front of people. And I just don't see that, I don't see that as, as, as what it, what it takes to be a man. For example, you're in a situation, a precarious situation with your family, and it doesn't make sense to me that the woman has to step up and take care of the family when the man should be standing up for his family and not being afraid of anything. Right. So, so it just, it, it spins my head to imagine or even witness a man standing behind his woman while the woman is taking charge and, you know, making happen, you know, for whatever reason.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yes, I would agree with you on that. And, and maybe that's a pride thing, but I tried to, I try to be the, the leader in the family. Right. And take, take things on myself to try to be a provider that way. But, you know, one thing I got out of this podcast that's for sure is to try to face my fears more. So rather than just like, you know, like the plain example, not just going on a plane and trying to be okay with it and thinking I shouldn't be scared, but actually kind of lean into it like you did with your fears.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

So, you know, I'm going to that next fear I have that I come across. I think I'll try to take it on as a challenge to overcome it and maybe kind of fine tune it and, you know, be superior that way.

[Eddie Judge]

Well, give me a, give me, give me a shout out on that. I want to Hear how you did that. I'm really curious because it's worked for me for a long time. Long time. But like I said, what, what I hate seeing is when people don't live their life because they're afraid. You know, they're afraid. Especially the people that think about all the worst possible things that can happen in this one scenario. And my wife is one of them. She thinks the worst case scenario about everything. Simple. Let's go on a road trip. Okay, where are we going to stop for gas, we're going to eat, where are we going to stay? How much time are we going to take? You know, are we there yet? Like, oh God, drive me crazy. And I'll never forget this one trip we took. It was at the end of the year, it was a tough year, we were done filming and everything and it was between Christmas and New Year's Eve. And I said, listen, I'm done with schedules, I'm done with calendars, I'm done with, you know, doing my life on a schedule. Let's just get an RV and hit the road. And sure enough, day later, I rented a little Mercedes rv, the pop outs and everything. And I said, okay, just grab a few clothes, we're just gonna drive. And I don't know where we're going. We're just gonna drive.

[AJ Jacobs]

Well, that was the trip, not knowing where you're going, right? Yeah, yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

And she was totally gung ho on board and it blew my mind that she was. So I said, all right, let's go. Got a few pieces together, jumped in the car and just started driving north with the goal to get to, I think Yosemite was one of my goals. As we're driving, we get into, I think it was Ventur and we both realized we didn't bring any food. We exited the freeway 10 miles in, we got find a grocery store and we're in there walking around buying groceries and this is like way out in the middle of nowhere, Right, right. And the people of course are recognized or they recognize me and they're like, what the hell are you doing out here? Like, we're just getting groceries, that's it. So we jump back in the car, back on the freeway, and as we're driving I'm realizing, oh shit, it's winter, there's going to be a bunch of snow in the mountains, so we can't go to the snow. So where are we going? I don't know, but we're running out of time and we need to find a place to go, you know, park the RV for the night. So we end up in this gas station, and we're trying to figure out we can go to a camping RV ground or we can go to this little.

[AJ Jacobs]

Wow. You literally didn't plan anything. You just got.

[Eddie Judge]

I didn't plan anything. It was. It was so much fun. I can't tell you how much fun that trip was, because.

[AJ Jacobs]

Joy in the journey, right?

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah, yeah, whatever. Whatever came to us, we did. And I can't remember the last time. Well, the last time I did that, my dad gave me a book written by Jack Kerog. I think it's called on the Road. I don't know if you've read it.

[AJ Jacobs]

No, I have not.

[Eddie Judge]

It's a book about a kid that just, you know, know, got on the road and just took the adventure, and whatever came, came. You know, it was a great book. And I think it was because of that book that I wanted to do this trip. Because all our. The rest of our life is on schedules and organized, and if it's not, it's chaos. Right? If your life is not organized, it's freaking chaos.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

So I just didn't want any of that that time. And we had such a blast. We ended up going all the way to Napa Valley, and of course, when we get there, we didn't realize it's winter, so all the. All the vineyards are closed except for one. But we were looking for a vineyard, and, you know, we couldn't find anyone that was open. Like, why are we here?

[AJ Jacobs]

You know, you. I'm certain you experience things that you wouldn't have had you planned.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah, yeah, it was. It was almost like freedom, you know, because when you're on a schedule, so even though, you know you have to be on a schedule and organized to make life successful and accomplishable, it felt like I was free, restrictive.

[AJ Jacobs]

You were restricted. When you have a plan, you must do this, you must do that, or you're supposed to check in at a certain time. But here you are, you know, you were free to do as you wish.

[Eddie Judge]

For you to do as I wish, and I love that. You know, I have had friends where we've traveled, and they have this whole agenda. I'm like, dude, I am not doing any of that. I am on vacation. Okay. I'm just relaxing.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah. I'll plan when I get home.

[Eddie Judge]

Right now, I've just gone with the flow. There's. There's really something to say for that.

[AJ Jacobs]

I. I do commend those, and I. I experienced that a little bit in Utah. I don't have many stories, but people who literally just like, no, I'm just gonna go in the mountains for a week or two to.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

You know, literally. And I'll. I'll find food. Literally. I know a guy, he was. He loved it. He's like, I. I ate snake.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

He was just. He was just hunting, and he lived out there for two weeks.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

And he just. He said it was the best thing. I never really dug into. I wish I did, but it's gone. I already know who he is anymore. But he. He said the snake was the best thing he ever. Probably because he captured it and he did it himself. And it was really. You know, and maybe he was hungry.

[Eddie Judge]

For it, you know, really hungry. Right.

[AJ Jacobs]

Like, he, you know, he. He experienced things that he wouldn't have otherwise. And to be able to do that without any. I mean, that's. Yeah. I wish I could live a life like that sometimes.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can start little by little, you know.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah. I'm gonna go get a camper tomorrow.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah.

[AJ Jacobs]

You know, Emily's gonna get in it and we're.

[Eddie Judge]

Go to the beach. Go to the beach right here in San Clemente. You know, there's always. I used to ride my bike there a lot, and I used to see people camp there all the time. It's a good start.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

Just.

[AJ Jacobs]

Just.

[Eddie Judge]

It could be fun and then expand because that's one of my goals, to get on my Harley and go across the nation one day. You know, I have to find the right people to teach me and be a part of because I don't have the balls yet to just jump on it and go by myself. I thought about it. I literally thought, I'm just going to jump on my bike one day and go. But I got a wife, I got kids now I got a damn dog.

[AJ Jacobs]

I got neglect from a. Your responsibility.

[Eddie Judge]

But I think that would be such a fun, fun adventures just to be.

[AJ Jacobs]

No. No plan. I had a friend that did that from Northern California all the way down to the south of Chile on a bike.

[Eddie Judge]

Wow.

[AJ Jacobs]

And I followed him through Facebook and. And it was literally just camp wherever. He would share stories of people he met and he just improvised. All the way down. And then he unloaded his bike. Bike, you know, sold it or whatever and flew back up. And that was. That was a couple months. Yeah.

[Eddie Judge]

That's so cool.

[AJ Jacobs]

So that's you. That's you. Next.

[Eddie Judge]

Next. All right, on that note, thank you so much, Shane, for coming on. And it's been a real pleasure. Always fun talking with you. And that's it. That's the show.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah. Well, thanks for enlightening me and inspiring me on facing my fears.

[Eddie Judge]

So, guys, don't forget, go listen to Legally Brunette if you're into understanding the law and, you know, figuring out what you can learn. I'm always about learning, you know, so.

[AJ Jacobs]

Kind of high profile, celebrity type cases.

[Eddie Judge]

Yeah. It's going to be fun to listen to.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah. Very good. Well, thank you, Eddie.

[Eddie Judge]

Okay, guys, thank you so much for listening. That's the wrap and we will see you or hear you at the next one. These days it feels like everyone is talking about how the American dream of homeownership has become out of reach.

[AJ Jacobs]

Well, Rocket is trying to give more of us a chance to own our homes.

[Eddie Judge]

They're making home ownership simpler and more accessible to more people, turning renters into owners.

[AJ Jacobs]

Rocket believes that everyone deserves a shot.

[Eddie Judge]

At the American dream. So are you ready?

[AJ Jacobs]

Own the dream. Visit rocket.com or call 804Rocket Geico's motorcycle.

[Gabe Lehners]

Expertise means I'm covered by people who.

[Eddie Judge]

Know bikes like I do. I'm happy as a clam.

[AJ Jacobs]

Disclaimer. No conclusive sign. Scientific research has shown clams can experience happiness.

[Eddie Judge]

It just meant that I feel really good about my coverage.

[AJ Jacobs]

I mean, even if you took the clam out for the best day ever, visiting the zoo, taking a scenic ride, knowing your insured by specialist, and sharing a strawberry ice cream cone together, the clam would not feel happy and your strawberry cone would taste sort of clammy.

[Eddie Judge]

Ew.

[AJ Jacobs]

Geico's motorcycle specialists who know bikes like you do, assume no liability for clammy ice cream cones. Geico expertise for your motorcycle.

[Gabe Lehners]

What would you do if mysterious drones appeared over your hometown? I started asking questions. What do you remember happening on that night of December 16th?

[AJ Jacobs]

It actually rotated around our house, looking as if it was peering in each window of our home.

[Gabe Lehners]

I'm Gabe Leonors from Imagine I Heart Podcasts and Leonard's Entertainment. Listen to Obscurum Invasion of the Drones wherever you get your favorite podcast.

[Colleen Witt]

Are you hungry? Colleen Witt here. And Eating While Broke is back for season four. Every Thursday on the Black Effect Podcast Network. This season, we've got a legendary lineup serving up broke dishes and even better stories. On the menu, we have Tony Baker, Nick Cannon, Melissa Ford, October London, and Carrie Harper Howey turning Big Macs into big moves. Catch eating while broke every Thursday on the Black Effect podcast network. IHeartRadio app Apple podcast Wherever you get your favorite shows come hungry for season four.