Ukraine: The Latest | Exclusive Interview with Dmytro Kuleba, Former Ukrainian Foreign Minister
The Telegraph | February 25, 2025
Overview
This episode of "Ukraine: The Latest" features an in-depth, exclusive interview with Dmytro Kuleba, Ukraine’s Minister of Foreign Affairs from 2020 to 2024, reflecting on three years since Russia’s full-scale invasion. The Telegraph's defense and audio editors examine the current military and political landscape in Ukraine and Europe, discuss mounting Western defense challenges, and probe Kuleba’s candid perspective on key moments in the war, international alliances, and the future of Europe’s security.
(Key interview begins at 32:26)
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Military Update (03:22–14:31, Dom Nichols)
- Russian Airstrikes Escalate: Poland scrambled fighter jets after Russian missile attacks on Western Ukraine threatened NATO airspace. Widespread strikes hit Kyiv and other cities, with casualties reported in Sumy and near Kyiv.
- Ukrainian Defense Efforts: Ukrainian forces conducted a successful drone bomber strike on a Russian S300 SAM system in Zaporizhzhia Oblast—destroying a rare, high-value air-defense capability.
- Russian Oil Infrastructure Targeted: Ukraine's drone strike on the Ryazan oil refinery was detailed. Russian authorities detained a 17-year-old suspected of assisting with targeting. The refinery suffered significant damage.
- Economic Impact and Aid: Damage in Ukraine is now calculated at $176 billion, with rebuilding costs estimated at $524 billion. Norway announced $315 million in military aid for procurement from Ukraine’s defense industry.
- UK Defense Spending: British PM Keir Starmer committed to raising the defense budget to 2.5% of GDP by 2027, to be funded by cuts in overseas development aid. Debate remains on the adequacy and targets of this increase.
2. Political Developments (14:31–32:26, Francis Dernley)
- US at the UN: A Shift in Stance: The US controversially voted with Russia against a resolution condemning Russia’s invasion, also backing a UNSC resolution omitting Russian aggression and Ukrainian sovereignty.
- "Yesterday, with the mere pushing of a button, we are able to clearly and undeniably mark a shift few would have thought possible." – Francis (14:46)
- Macron-Trump Summit: French President Macron directly challenged Trump’s claim that the US was the main Ukraine funder:
- "No, in fact, to be Frank, we paid 60% of the total effort... we provided real money." – Macron (approx. 17:00)
- French Nuclear Deterrent Brinkmanship: Reports suggest France may extend its nuclear umbrella over Europe if the US withdraws—possibly redeploying fighter jets with nuclear capability to Germany—to deter further Russian escalation.
- Europe’s Strategic Crossroads: With concerns over dwindling US support, European leaders face pressure to invest in defense, quickly utilize frozen Russian assets, and secure Ukraine militarily and economically.
- Critical Minerals Deal: An EU counter-offer challenges a US-Ukraine deal on access to Ukrainian critical minerals. Practicality and strategic alignment with the US likely trump better EU terms.
Exclusive Interview: Dmytro Kuleba (32:26–58:55)
Kuleba on the State of the War
- Kuleba echoes his December 2024 warning:
- “Do we today have the means and tools to turn the tables and change the trajectory of how things are happening? No, we don’t. And if it continues like this, we will lose the war.” (32:26)
- He adds: “Now, I feel that Europe feels itself to be in one boat with Ukraine more than ever.” (32:55)
What Europe Must Do Now
- Europe must urgently:
- Utilize frozen Russian assets:
- “When there is a political will to do something, lawyers and bankers will always find a way to do it... If they do that, they basically out the money argument from Trump’s toolkit of leverages.” (34:09)
- Invest in Weapons for Ukraine and Itself:
- “Today Europe is disarmed not because of Ukraine, but because of 30 years of negligence and ignorance ... the best you can do is to start making decisions in order to save Europe from the war.” (35:08)
- Escalate—Against Their Nature:
- “My concern is that ... this is the moment for Europe to escalate. But this is so much against the nature of European politics.” (36:33)
- Show Strength to Trump:
- “You do not have to go at war with him [Trump], but you have to show that you possess the quality, the feature of strength that makes him respect you. This is the only way forward.” (36:59)
- Utilize frozen Russian assets:
The Mechanism: Coalition of the Willing
- EU procedures are too slow and vulnerable to veto (esp. by Hungary/Slovakia)
- “If they do not find a way to avoid unanimity ... the only way out will be the so-called coalition of the willing ... to act, because this is the time to act.” (37:40)
Institutional Blockages: Then and Now
- Early in the invasion, quick action came from individual nations, not slow-moving blocs.
- Urgent decisions must now be made in weeks, not months, to keep Ukraine fighting.
- “It's time to make decisions and nations have to go for the solutions that allow quick decision making.” (40:51)
The Global Significance of Russia’s War
- If Ukraine is forced into unfair peace, revisionist regimes elsewhere will be emboldened.
- “For the last three years, the world has been watching whose might is going to prevail. And if Russia succeeds ... why shouldn’t we try the same?... Losing credibility in the world will be the beginning of the end of the West.” (41:41)
Personal Reflections on the Invasion’s Start
- Kuleba recounts the night of February 23–24, 2022:
- Notifies family, staff, loved ones, reroutes journey, begins crisis communications.
- Emotional burden: Offering advice to a mother unsure if she should try to rescue her children in Kyiv.
- “...when you are confronted with an issue of life and death of a specific family, child ... the value of your words becomes particularly unmeasurable.” (45:18)
On Diplomacy, Decisions, and Mistakes
- “If the war begins, diplomats have very little reason to be proud ... it means that diplomacy failed.” (48:04)
- His focus on securing weapons and sanctions early, not negotiations:
- “Russia came to destroy us, and they will use negotiations as a smoking screen ... My decision was not wrong.” (48:38)
- On Mistakes: Wishes he’d spoken out more forcefully internally but maintains that lessons and blame must wait for peace.
War Crimes and Western Response
- “Truth is the first victim of the war, and I’m afraid justice is the first victim of peace.” (52:12)
- Recounts the sleepless night after finding out about the Bucha massacre.
- Frustration at Western unwillingness to pursue a special tribunal for Russian aggression.
Can Ukraine Still Win?
- Kuleba remains defiant:
- “I will stick to my words of 2022, not because I’m stubborn, but because if we are not going to win, then what was it all for?” (55:53)
- “You lose when you accept the inevitability of losing ... That’s exactly what Putin wants us to do.” (57:15)
Final Appeal
- The threat is not hybrid, but physical—Europeans must realize war might reach them.
- “As unimaginable as it is to think of the war on the streets of Britain, Germany and other countries, I’m afraid war is a normality again...” (57:34)
Notable Quotes and Moments
- On European hesitancy: “War is at the gate and America is gone. Ukraine is fighting, but its resources are not endless.” – Kuleba (35:10)
- On ‘Coalition of the Willing’: “Times of multilateralism are gone, I’m sure.” – Kuleba (37:16)
- On the stakes for the West: “Losing credibility in the world will be the beginning of the end of the West.” – Kuleba (43:27)
- On the trauma of war crimes: “There was only one night that I spent sleepless ... the night following ... the Bucha massacre.” – Kuleba (52:50)
- On Western self-deterrence: “Europe, you’re on the naughty step here as well. We self-deterr’d and we bought into this escalation argument ... He [Putin] didn’t pay any attention to ours [nuclear threats].” – Dom Nichols (26:51)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 03:22 – Dom Nichols: Military update, attacks, UK defense spending
- 14:31 – Francis Dernley: UN vote, Macron-Trump, French nuclear policy
- 32:26 – Kuleba interview begins
- 32:26 – Opening diagnosis and Europe’s new reality
- 34:09 – Frozen Russian assets, urgent needs
- 36:33 – Why Europe must escalate
- 37:16 – Multilateralism vs. coalition of the willing
- 41:18 – Global consequences if Ukraine loses
- 44:27 – Personal recollections of the full-scale invasion’s outbreak
- 48:04 – On diplomacy, decisions, regrets
- 52:12 – War crimes, Western accountability, Bucha impact
- 55:38 – On whether victory is still possible
- 57:34 – Appeal to European public: Accept the reality of war
Concluding Thoughts (61:28–63:26)
- Frozen Russian assets: Increasing calls to use these for Ukraine’s defense as the US role recedes.
- AI translations of the podcast: Now available in Ukrainian and Russian to broaden access behind the front lines.
Summary Tone
The conversation is candid, sometimes blunt, and carries both the exhaustion and resolve of three years at war. Kuleba mixes technical insight with personal reflection. There is an urgent, even desperate undercurrent: Europe, the fate of Ukraine—and perhaps the West—rests on decisions made in the next few months. The message is clear: delay is deadly, and victory is not possible without courage and unity.
For listeners seeking a full, firsthand account of Ukraine’s diplomatic struggles, European dilemmas, and the enduring danger ahead, this episode is essential.