← Ukraine: The Latest
Ukraine: The Latest
Exclusive: ‘My face-to-face with Russian prisoners of war’ & Europe ends largest military drill since the Cold War
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Francis Durnley
I'm Francis Dernley and this is Ukraine the latest. Today we take you to Lviv and hear an update from Dom's week in the west of Ukraine, including a visit to a prisoner of war camp speaking to soldiers who fought for Russia. Then we bring you the latest on the strikes by both sides as Tapsi refinery is hit for the fourth time in a fortnight. Then we discuss the end of what's being called the biggest military exercise involving European forces since the end of the Cold War.
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Dominic Nichols
Bravery takes you through the most unimaginable hardships to finally reward you with victory.
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Francis Durnley
The Russians is not one.
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If I'm president, I will have that
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Francis Durnley
war settled in one day.
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24 hours.
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Dominic Nichols
We are with you. Not just today or tomorrow, but for a hundred years.
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Francis Durnley
Nobody's going to break us.
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Dominic Nichols
We are strong. We are Ukrainians.
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Francis Durnley
It's Friday the 1st of May, 4 years and 66 days since the full scale invasion began. And today I'm joined by my co host and associate editor of Defence here at the Telegraph, Dominic Nichols. But before giving you today's updates, let's go straight to Dom in Ukraine for an update on what he's been up to this week. Well, Dom, we've not talked to you this week, we're not sure where you are. So update us. What have you been up to? Where are you recording from right now?
- [03:41]
Dominic Nichols
Well, hi, Francis. Hi everybody. I'm recording from Lviv in Western Ukraine, been here for the week, been buzzing around the local area on Tuesday, went to the Pravda brewery, which is all the important research last week. So Pravda brewery, which is one of the country's biggest, made famous shortly after the Pascal invasion when they stopped brewing beer and started producing Molotov cocktails, petrol bombs. So they made their name there and then they've done all sorts of other bits and pieces. So we went there for a deep discussion on Ukrainian society and how they're pulling together and craft beer sector, what that's looking like with a lot of the ingredients grown in areas that are currently battlefields. So we had a good day on Tuesday. A lot of important research done there as well for a follow up, but very good.
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Francis Durnley
Oh, I bet.
- [04:32]
Dominic Nichols
And then did some culture stuff yesterday which was a bit of a come down after all the porter and the fine IPA and all the rest of it. And then today, been elsewhere in, in Western Ukraine, went to a prisoner of war camp. So we have been obviously reporting pretty much every day for the last four years on this war and we've heard many, many voices, many of which are very supportive of Russia's position. But what we've never had, we've never had the voice of fighters, people fighting for Russia. So we went to a prisoner of war camp and we spoke to a number of people there and it was very interesting what they had to say. Say quite. I wouldn't say it was uplifting. I mean, there was no great sense of remorse or resolve to be better people and all this kind of stuff. Many of them just, they seemed pretty ambivalent to what they were doing. I mean, when you asked them why they joined the army and why they were fighting, I mean, the answers were pretty much, they were mostly, I was in jail and it was a way out. Other people sort of hinted darkly at, I was in jail and I signed a contract and I spoke to some young lads in their teens and twenties and I said, look, you know, you're young. If you get exchanged, will you come back and fight? And they. Well, they certainly didn't say no. And they basically said. They kind of took the attitude that it was a ridiculous question because the choice as to whether or not to fight or not, again, in the way they were presenting themselves is not in their gift. They said, if that's what the state says, if that's what the army says, if the army sends me back, I will have to fight. It's very passive. There's no active voice. It was not, I choose to do this or I choose not to, or I will do this with my life. It was, well, if that's. If that's the destiny, if that's what the army has for me, if that's what the state has, then I will fight again. It was quite bizarre. It's the mindset that we've seen before, we've reported on many, many times. But, yeah, to see it up, up front and hear it in person was quite odd. I mean, there was a proper. I wouldn't say a convert converted at all, but a guy from Azerbaijan who was absolute zealot. I mean, this war, it's all Europe. He felt sorry for poor old Ukraine that had been bullied by France and Germany and Britain and the United States and made to go to war. He had nothing against the Ukrainian people. It was all France and Germany. It was extraordinary, as in literally extra to the ordinary. It was not ordinary at all. It was not normal human rational response of an inquisitive human being. And it's quite hard to hear. Of course, interviewing prisoners of war is a very controversial area of journalism. It's questionable. Basically, I. Do you believe a word they're saying? Are they going to say things that they think you want to hear, or are they just saying pretty bland stuff to get through the day? So is it interesting to the public? Possibly. Is it in the public interest? That's questionable. Then, of course, there's the moral side of it, which is the controversial side. Geneva Convention say that prisoners of war must be protected against public curiosity. Now, this actually was written to stop states parading prisoners of war through. Through the streets and having them subjected to ridicule and abuse and possibly violence. But in this day and age with the mass media, what is public curiosity? So that's the Geneva Convention, obviously, it's a telegraph and media organization. We're not a signatory to the Geneva Conventions, but it's a useful handrail to guide your attitude and your questions. And if you think you're staying on the right side of the Geneva Conventions, then that's probably good journalism. So it did. But some of the questions you were putting to the ministers in Hungary, if you remember, very, very pointed, direct, you know, why are you doing this? And don't you feel that? And so on, so forth, I couldn't do that, or I chose not to do that with these prisons of war, because that, that is, I'm not there to humiliate and belittle them. I mean, I could very easily have put these kind of cases to them. You know, do you feel silly? Do you feel you were lied to? And so on and so forth. Maybe I went too far the other way, but I thought, well, I'd rather err on the side of Geneva Conventions than subject them to anything that might be deemed by any future, future court case. As we were informed, warned by the authorities when we went in. I didn't want to put myself or the Telegraph in a position of being accused of humiliating and belittling these individuals who are clearly under duress. I mean, they've lost their freedom for short amount of time, however long it's going to be, before they are exchanged. Interesting point there. There are a number of Africans, some from Europe, chap from Brazil, I from Cuba, guy from Cuba, can only speak Spanish, couldn't speak any Russian. Well, not surprised you're a bloody prisoner then, quite frankly, mate. But I didn't say that, I didn't say that. But, you know, a lot of Africans or a lot of countries which are not at war with Ukraine, so when it comes to exchanging prisoners of war, they haven't got a route home. You know, you're not going to get Brazil doing a deal for five of their blokes to come back and Ukraine get five, you know, it doesn't work. So the foreign fighters that were in there really disconsolate because they've got no future until the end of this thing. And then what? I mean, go to Russia? I mean, it was extraordinary, the few that we spoke to. I don't know if they'd ever really rethought of that. And again, I don't want to push the button too hard and say, oh, look, you stupid idiot, you're not going to get exchanged because Ukraine's not at war with Somalia. Again, I chose not to do that, but it was a fascinating visit. Yeah, we're going to put a longer report out in the coming days and a film and what have you, much more detail, some really interesting stuff which hopefully we will convey. Hopefully it Will retain its interest by the time it leaves me and gets to you.
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Francis Durnley
Yeah, well, thanks, Tom, for talking us through that and trailing it. Just one question that occurs to me that I feel like I have to ask is what conditions were they being kept in?
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Dominic Nichols
Well, the conditions were fine. It was an old light manufacturing plant. It used to be build the boxes for back in Soviet times when this factory did that factory did the other never the train should meet. It built the wooden frames into which all the TV gubbins went back in the day. And then when the Soviet Union collapsed, it became a prison, normal prison, and that was shut at the start of the full scale invasion and it took its first prisoner of War on 30 May 2022, so very soon after the start of the full scale invasion. So it was effectively purpose built. The bedrooms looked fine. There were some rooms that had sort of three bunk beds, so six people to a room. There were other big dormitory blocks of maybe 20 or 30 people in there. There was an exercise yard, a small football pitch. Yeah, I mean, it didn't look like a fowler. LAUGHS There was a garden. They were growing their own herbs into six large greenhouses. There's a workshop where they make Christmas trees and other bits and pieces. So they, they can be employed, they can earn money. The Geneva Convention says they're allowed to earn a quarter of a Swiss franc a day, which works out as a few hundred horizon an hour, I think. So they are able to get that work. There's a. There's a little shop, they can buy things. So, you know, I was speaking to one guy, young Russian bloke in his twenties who spoke English. Now, we were chaperoned throughout by Ukrainian guards and that's to be expected. And it was, I guess partly for our safety, but also keeping an eye on. On what they were saying. And this guy spoke English and I took a bit of a punt. I didn't know if the guy spoke English, so I spoke to this guy afterwards and he said, the conditions aren't always like this. We spruce it up for the journalists again, you know, I've got no way of verifying that. It looked all right to me. There were no obvious signs of mistreatment. The lunch was okay, it was pretty good. I ate the same as they did and when the prisoners were queuing up to get their lunch, there was no great whooping and jumping for joy. Hooray, it's the journalist day. We get the decent scoff. So, you know, I guess it was a pretty normal meal. And it was perfectly adequate. Yeah. But this guy said, oh, yes, it's different. When the journalists turn up, I said, oh, have you told that to the icrc, The International Committee of the Red Cross that do have unrestricted access to the camp, they come for a week at a time every two months, and they speak to every single prisoner. And that's how a lot of the mail gets through. He said, oh, yes, yes, I did. I said to the icrc and they. So that they'd do something. And they didn't. So I don't know. I mean, the ICRC are no slouches. I remember from my time in the military. So the International Committee of the Red Cross, not the. Obviously, the National Red Cross organizations carry huge weight, but the International Committee of the Red Cross, they are backed up with all kind of legal permissions, I should say. So if you, as a military person, tried to stop them getting entry, you're in a whole load of legal hurt. So the icrc, they kick ass when they turn up. So I was surprised when this young chap said to me that he had reported these complaints to the ICRC and nothing had been done about it. So again, it's down to, was he just saying that? I mean, I will. I will chase that up with the icrc. But again, you're left thinking, well, is he just venting? Is he complaining? I don't know. And I asked the other prisoners, we asked permission for all of them. Obviously, we got consent to video them and to interview them. And we made it very clear. And this is all on camera, all recorded. We said, if you don't want to speech, you don't have to. They don't want to give us. In fact, we said, I don't want to know any biographical information that can identify you or your family or where you're from. Some people volunteered their age and a name or a call sign, but no, we gave them every opportunity to say, and we said, are you speaking under duress beyond the fact that you are locked up, but have you been made to speak to us and that kind of thing? So they said, no. And I do think that's the case. There was ample opportunity for them to. To speak to us as this. As this guy did, away from the. Away from the guards and other prisoners. So I don't know the truthfulness of that statement, that ICRC have done nothing with this guy's complaints, but I will look. I will look into it.
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Francis Durnley
Did you get any sense, Dom, of why the Ukrainians let you see these particular Prisoners of war?
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Dominic Nichols
Well, I mean, we asked that, and they said they want to show that they're abiding by the Geneva Conventions. They're looking after competence, they're not mistreating them. I mean, this was one of a very small number of camps across the country. I think this is the only one that's open to journalists. So I've no way of knowing what the conditions are elsewhere. Clearly, it's in Ukraine's interest to show that they are adhering to the conventions and treating prisoners in a humane way. I think. I don't think there's any mystery as to why they're showing it. It comes down to whether or not you believe that this is the dog and pony show, or if this is what happens every day. And I'm going to show you what I saw and show you the recordings I made with people who are there. And it's not for me to steer you one way, one way or the other. I think there's compelling evidence for sophisticated consumers of journalism as our listeners and viewers are to make their own minds up.
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Francis Durnley
Well, as you say, Dom, we'll be talking about this, I think, a lot more and showing more when you're back in London. I just got to ask a separate question. As you say, you're in the west of the country. You're in Lviv at the moment. By the time listeners are seeing this, or viewers, I should say, are seeing this, or listeners are hearing this, you'll be on your way out. Lviv, of course, was hit in one of the worst raids of the war only a few weeks ago. What's the mood there? Do you get a sense of the damage caused by that, or does this feel like somewhere that is relatively untouched compared to some of the other places we've been over the years?
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Dominic Nichols
Well, a bit of both. I mean, we went to the site of that strike on the monastery just a couple of weeks ago, and we geolocated the exact spot where the individual that took the footage that is most widely seen of it. So we could work out the. The angle that the drone came in, and then we could see exactly where it hit and the effect on all the windows in the monastery and elsewhere. A lot of boarded up, still very much boarded up. A new roof, basically just a tin roof that was blown off. And there are signs of damage around the rest of the city. A lot of the monuments are protected. They've got all the hoardings around them to protect them. It does feel different. We've only had one air raid alert while we've been here, not during the night. It only occurred this afternoon and it was only about 15 minutes. So, you know, this is the. I can't remember that the last time I've had three uninterrupted nights sleep in, in Ukraine. But the war is everywhere. I mean, there's a chap over there in uniform, there's adverts, the bus stops and what have you, recruitment adverts. There's all the murals and graffiti. Interestingly, as you know France, it's nine o' clock in the morning across the country. There's a minute silence played over the loudspeakers. You hear the tick tock of a clock counting the minute silence. And it is almost universally observed across the country. Where I've seen it before in Kyiv and Kharkiv. I think in Kharkiv as well. There were one or two people still moving about here in Lviv, even though it's right out in the west. It does get hit a lot. Absolutely. Everybody stops. All the vehicles stopped. Every single person stopped for the minute and then saw somebody getting out of the car. And I thought, ah, there's one person who's not observing it. No, that person got out of the car to stand by the side of the car and observe the minute silence. So yes, might be, what are we, 600ks southwest of Kyiv here. But it's still very real. Yeah, the war wars where you see, you know, flags everywhere, looking around here, like I say, uniforms walking around. Yeah, you don't feel out of it at all here.
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Francis Durnley
That's very interesting and I think that will surprise quite a few people watching and listening to this. Well, John, I know you and Jack are, are going to be heading off fairly soon and as I say, by the time people are watching and listening to this, you'll be out of country, I imagine. But is there anything else that you want to impart before you go?
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Dominic Nichols
So we spoke to a lot of the media people around here and it's one of those brilliantly local stories. Lviv has an airport, an international airport. Obviously not been in use since the start of the full scale invasion. Although it still amazes me how many people you speak to who ask, how do you get into Ukraine? Do you fly? Can you fly to Kyiv Flight a little bit. No, no. There's been no domestic flights since full scale invasion. So there is an international airport just outside the city here and there's a big, a massive spat at the moment because the local authorities want to build more houses on it and the, well, other elements of the civic administration are saying, no, we need the airport for when the war finishes. We need an airport. We need to get the people back in. Because this hasn't always been Ukraine, this has been in the Austro Hungarian Empire for a long time. The architecture is absolutely beautiful. You'd love it here, Francis. It's like Rome and Greece had a party. And this is the detritus that was left, all the bottles that were left is absolutely beautiful here. A lot of the architecture, a lot of the churches, cobbled streets. It is beautiful. So the tourists will come flocking back if there's an airport. And I'm amazed there's this local dispute about whether or not to keep the airport not open and functioning obviously, but fit to be repaired quickly or to build houses on it. It seems so, so strange to me. But no, that's, that's seizing the. The local media here in Viv.
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Francis Durnley
Well, Dom, great to hear from you and of course we'll be looking forward to having you back here in London. Hope you have a safe journey back.
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Dominic Nichols
Cheers everyone. See you soon.
- [19:09]
Francis Durnley
But let's bring you the most significant military and political updates now. Earlier today, dozens of Russian long range attack drones hit the city of ternopil just over 100km east from where Dom was in Lviv. Footage shows smoke hovering over parts of the city. Hat tip to Tim White, who shares footage purportedly from the city at lunchtime today of a church service taking place while explosions are clearly audible outside. Vinnytsia, between Lviv and the very center of Ukraine saw around 74 drones fly over the region en route to targets elsewhere, with air alert in neighbouring regions to the north and the west. One woman there was hospitalized after a house was almost destroyed. Kharkiv in the northeast, continues to suffer serious bombardments. Petrol stations in the city, at the nearby Chuhuiv were attacked, according to the Regional Prosecutor's Office. In terms of Ukraine's own bombardments, the Tuapsi refinery site, which we've been talking about now for several days, has been hit once more. Video purporting to show people touring the site while it's still ablaze are circulating today on social media. The raid last night brings the tally up to four in the past two weeks alone on April 16th, 20th and 28th. Then the first. So last night. Clearly Kyiv is leaving nothing up to chance. You'll recall those huge strikes on the Baltic several weeks ago, including Usluga and Primorsk as part of Zelenskyy's long range sanctions campaign. Tellingly, in a televised briefing last Night, the governor of Russia's Leningrad Oblast, which includes those sites, briefed former Russian President Dmitry occasionally sober Medvedev on the deteriorating situation at regional energy facilities. Describing his region as now not only a border region but also a frontline region, he continued, judging by the intensity of the attacks in March and mid April, fuel and energy complex facilities and port infrastructure are of interest to the enemy. From the standpoint of inflicting damage, I'd say that is a fair assumption, yes. Now, Kyiv has also released footage of an attack on a drone development complex in occupied Zaporizhzhia. According to them, the center was established in 2024, serving as a key complex in the development of Russian drones, robotic and electronic warfare systems, as well as command and communications equipment. We don't know when this hit took place. Another relatively quiet day in terms of movement on the front lines. We'll be giving you a full update when we return after the bank holiday on Tuesday, with Dom here back in this seat. Speaking of ground forces, earlier in the week we reported that new study by the Ukrainian Ombudsman about how after 40 days continued service without being relieved, frontline soldiers lose their will to survive, painting a stark picture of the intensity of the so called zero line, where some troops are not moved for months. Perhaps in response to that report, President Zelenskyy has posted the following we are launching an army reform. The first results must already be delivered in June, particularly in the area of financial support for soldiers, sergeants and commanders of the Defence forces of Ukraine. First, I have set the task of significantly increasing pay based on the principle of fairness. Specific specifically combat missions on the front line. Real combat and leadership experience and the effectiveness of a service member must guarantee increased pay for combat positions. It should be several times higher. Second, special attention to infantry. A Ukrainian infantryman who holds the front line must feel that our state truly respects him. Third, approaches to staffing our units and managing personnel will be changed. I have instructed that the contract system in the defence forces be strengthened so that by expanding the contract component, defined service duration terms are ensured and starting already this year, a phased discharge from service becomes possible for those who were mobilised earlier based on clear time based criteria. Interesting developments there. Now, while we're on this theme of infantry and beyond. As previously reported, Europe's largest war drill since the Cold War started in February and concluded yesterday. This was France's Orion 26 exercise that mobilised 12,500 troops from 24 countries, including 25 warships and the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle 140 aircraft and 1,200 drones were also involved. The setup was anything but ambiguous, a made up revisionist power. Power Mercury interferes in neighbouring Arneland to block its path into the eu. In his closing remarks, President Macron of France framed the exercise as a pointed message to Ukraine's allies about how credible Europe's future security guarantees really are. For the first time, France's 1st Army Corps ran operations from a forward mobile HQ mounted on armoured vehicles rather than than in a static rear position. No comment. I know you're tempted, but no comment as light infantry assaulted using motorbikes and buggies, while Italian and Greek armour were utilized in tandem. In a sense, this was the coalition of the willing in action, bringing together forces from the uk, Germany, Spain, Greece, Italy and Poland, independent of the United States. But again, if these exercises are mainly intended to determine after a ceasefire is assured, one has to ask whether that is bold enough rather than acting in a way that compels and forces Russia to a ceasefire.
- [25:36]
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Dominic Nichols
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- [26:30]
Francis Durnley
But Two cultural stories in which to end the week the international jury of the Venice Biennale Art and Architecture Festival have dramatically resigned following a row over the organizer's decision to allow Russian participation. The Biennale confirmed the resignation of its five member international jury in a brief statement last night, days before the exhibition is set to open. Last week, the jury issued a statement saying it would refrain from considering those countries whose leaders are charged with crimes against humanity by the International Criminal Court. We will be exploring this story further over the coming fortnight, so stay tuned. Lastly, Oscar winner Pavel Talankin, the Russian teacher who recorded the propaganda he was compelled to teach students that was then turned into the documentary Mr. Nobody Against Putin, has had his Oscar stolen. He was forced to check in his golden statuette at a New York airport after the security there stopped him because they said it could be used as a weapon. He then landed in Germany and the Oscar was gone. Lufthansa Airlines, which helped him pack the award in a box for the flight since he didn't have a checking bag, said that the team is treating the incident with care and urgency and are doing a comprehensive internal search for the award now. I don't know about you, but if I'd won an Oscar, I'm not sure how I'd feel about seeing it hastily bundled in a box before going into the hold. But that's us up to date in terms of the military and political updates this week. On Monday it's a bank holiday here in the uk, so we'll be having a day off. Our sister podcast around the latest. We'll be putting out an episode though, so do check them out. As ever, Venetia Rainey and Roland Oliphant will be on that. We will be back, as I say, same time, same place on Tuesday with Dom here in the chair. Until then, all the very best from us here in London. Goodbye for now.
- [28:31]
David Knowles
Ukraine the Latest is an original podcast from the Telegraph created by David Knowles. Every episode featuring us in the studio. Maps and battlefield footage is now available to watch on our YouTube channel. Subscribe@www.YouTube.com crane the latest there's a link in the description. You can also sign up to the Ukraine the Latest Newsletter. Each week we answer your questions, provide recommended reading and give exclusive analysis and behind the scenes insights plus diagrams of the front lines and weaponry to complement our reporting. It's free for everyone including non subscribers. You can find the link to sign up in the episode description. If you appreciate our work, please consider following Ukraine the Latest on your preferred podcast app and leave us a review as it helps others find the show. Please also share it with those who may not be aware of we exist. You can also get in touch directly to ask questions or give comments by emailing ukrainepodelegraph.co.uk we continue to read every message. You can also contact us directly on X. You'll find our handles in the description. As ever, we're especially interested to hear where you're listening from around the world. And finally, to support our work and stay on top of all of our Ukraine news, analysis and dispatches from the ground, please subscribe to the Telegraph. You can get one month for free, then two months for just one pound at www.telegraph.co.uk Ukraine the latest Ukraine the
- [30:02]
Francis Durnley
latest was today produced by Rachel Porter.
- [30:04]
David Knowles
Executive producers are Francis Durnley, Louisa Wells and David Knowles.
- [30:10]
Dominic Nichols
My name is David Knowles.
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Thank you all for listening.
- [30:13]
Dominic Nichols
Goodbye.
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Dominic Nichols
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