← Ukraine: The Latest
Ukraine: The Latest
Moscow on lockdown amid largest drone attack of the war & ‘the phone call that saved me from certain death’
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- [00:04]
Colin Freeman
The telegraph.
- [00:09]
David Knowles
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- [01:26]
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- [01:37]
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- [01:42]
Colin Freeman
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- [01:46]
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- [01:57]
Francis Dernley
I'm Francis Dernley and this is Ukraine. The latest today, after a massive Russian bombardment across Ukraine, including missile launches from warships in the Black Sea, we assess Kyiv's latest wave of strikes on Russian energy infrastructure and on Moscow itself. We also examine President Trump's admission that Putin may be supporting Iran's war effort and ask whether the easing of sanctions on Russian oil is impacting global energy prices. Later, we hear about cheating death from above thanks to an unwelcome phone call and what a single missile strike can do to a town.
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Dominic Nichols
Bravery takes you through the most unimaginable hardships to finally reward you with victory.
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Francis Dernley
The Russia does not want feasible.
- [02:53]
Dominic Nichols
If I'm president, I will have that war settled in one day, 24 hours. We are with you. Not just today or tomorrow, but for 100 years. On Ukraine.
- [03:07]
Colin Freeman
Nobody's going to break us. We're strong. We're Ukrainians.
- [03:13]
Francis Dernley
It's Monday 16 March, four years and 20 days since the full scale invasion began. And today I'm joined by my co host and associate editor of Defense here at the Telegraph, Dominic Nichols. And later recently returned from a reporting trip to Ukraine, freelance journalist and author Colin Freeman. But first, over to DOM for the latest in the military realm.
- [03:33]
Dominic Nichols
Yeah, thanks Francis. So, a busy weekend, mainly in the air. No movement on the ground. Come on to that in a little bit. There were a lot of strikes on the ground, mainly in Russia, which I will come on to. But most of the military activity over the weekend was in the air. So overnight Friday, Saturday, Russia launched a massive air attack targeting Ukraine's critical infrastructure. Nearly 500 air munitions fired in this. There were two Zircon missiles, 13 Iskander M or S 400 ballistic missiles, 25 Kalibr cruise missiles, 24 KH 101 cruise missiles, four KH 59 or 69 variant guided air to surface missiles and 430 attack drones. Now all the Kalibr and KH 101 cruise missiles were shot down. But one of the two Zircons, seven of the 13 Iskanders, one of four KH 59s and 28 drones got through. Caused widespread disruption, deaths and injuries across the country. Now it's thought the caliber were fired by Russian naval assets in the Black Sea. This comes from a number of monitoring channels. Ukraine's air force said the cruiser missiles were also launched at the country from the Black Sea targeting the south mainly Kherson, Mykolaiv regions. Russia also we think they fired from their TU 95 and TU 160, the big bombers, the 95 propellers I think and the 160s got jet powered big strategic bombers, cruise missiles coming from them. The air force said. I mean it was all over the country. The Polish military launched fighters and an early warning aircraft and readied ground based air defense assets in response to this attack. Over on the western border, most of Ukraine was still under air alert. Early Saturday morning Russian strikes hit the capital Kyiv and the outskirts killing four and wounding 15 just in that area alone. Polish officials said these actions are of a preventative nature and are aimed at securing the airspace and its protection, particularly in areas adjacent to the threatened regions. There's no details about any drones or anything else that went over the border, so we don't think anything did. I'm sure you would have heard about it. Now next to no movement on the ground as I say, incredibly violent up and down the line as we've been reporting for weeks. But no, no real shift in positions. Still on Friday night Ukraine hit two Russian logistics ships. The railway ferry Slavianin and the vessel Avangard. They were both damaged. We don't know if they were totally disabled but certainly damaged as well as infrastructure in the port of Cavkas. Now this is down on Krasnodar Krai region. This is just to the east of the Kirch Bridge. These vessels are thought to be, well basically ferrying equipment, troops, supplies across the strait there because the bridge is vulnerable and limited about what you can get across there. So Russia is increasingly using ferries and naval assets there. Hence these two worst strikes. That was the first hit in the Krasnodar region which featured over the weekend. So just hold that area in your thoughts for the moment in that same area. Overnight, Friday, Saturday, Ukrainian drones hit the Afipsky refinery. This is also down in Krasnodar Krai, NASA's firms system, that's the fire information for resource management system, a space based system looking at intense heat spots basically for things like forest fires or blasts such as this, volcanoes as well, that kind of stuff. But it can see intense areas of heat from space base. So firms can pick up the biggest strikes, shall we say? This was one of them. So firms picked up this. It shows near real time live locations of like I say, incidents on the ground. Now throughout Saturday, Moscow was hit. Moscow Mayor Sergei Sibinin said that the capital there was subjected to waves of drone attacks. Russian air defenses they say shot down 60. That gives you an idea of how many there were in total. They didn't put a figure on that, but they say they shot down 60. They also said there were no casualties or damage. No damage reported, but there were a number of crash sites. I guess there must have been some damage anyway. Moscow's Domodidovo, Vinikovo and Zhukovsky airports were shut temporarily. And Russia's Defense Ministry said the attacks were part of a 10 hour Ukrainian attack across the entire country with Russian air defense destroying 280 Ukrainian drones across the whole country. So they say they shot down 280. Gives you, like I say, some idea if you want to trust their figures, which we don't. But it gives you some idea of the scale of the attack. Right. It's still Saturday night. Now overnight, Saturday, Sunday, back down the Krasnodar Krai, there was a strike on the Tikoretsk oil pumping station. Now you'll remember that name. Local Russian authorities said yesterday that our old friend Mr. Drone Debris had caused the fire there. However, the reason you'll remember that name is because that pumping station was hit last Wednesday. So that one was visited again. Now we are still in the vicinity of these attacks down Crimea, Krasnokrai, that kind of area. On Sunday, Ukraine's General staff said two radar stations were hit in Crimea along with an S400 air defence system. Now I think those radars and the S400 were north of Sevastopol. But it's very difficult. You know how I mangle all the town names. Well I think they're north of Sevastopol, but I couldn't quite work it out. Again back to NASA's firms system that reported a number of very Large fire traces around a Russian radar station on the Ipetri Mountain in Crimea, basically the southernmost point. Think of the most southerly point in Crimea. That's where this mountain range is. And there was a Russian radar site on top of that until Ukraine came a knocking across. Ukraine the same day, Saturday, Sunday, 90 of 97 drones brought down, but five people killed, nearly 50 injured. Then this morning, Monday, Crimea has been under attack again, as has Kyiv. Kyiv hit by a number of drones during rush hour. Over 200 drones fired across the country yesterday and into this morning. Most were brought down but again there were deaths and injuries across the country. And again finally for the last time in this bulgen, Ukrainian drones went back to the oil depot in Lubinsk in Krasnodar Krai. So Krasnodar, very important area for logistics, especially as they drive into Crimea and that is getting visited time and time again by Russian munitions. Now then Deputy Prime Minister Alexei Kuleba of Ukraine said yesterday that the country plans to introduce anti drone protective netting. The drone nets that we talk about a lot along another 600km of frontline roads, the ones that are mostly critical for logistic resupply and medical evacuation. This is going to cost 13 billion orivna. That's about US$300 million. That comes on top of that 600km, on top of the 4,000km. Defence Minister Mykhailo Fedorov announced just last month. So we know these nets work. We see many images of drones stuck in them. But we also know that a lot of effort is put into trying to blast away in in order to get the drones inside the nets.
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Francis Dernley
Sorry to interrupt, but does that not tell us something too about how much movement they're expecting over the coming months? You wouldn't invest in nets like this if you thought that the lines were going to be fluid. This is a defensive measure for the long term, isn't it?
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Dominic Nichols
Well, yeah, unless I suppose you could say, well maybe they've got some system of bringing them down should they need to or get out in a hurry. Probably not. You're probably right. This is infrastructure, which is a long term thing. Now then over the weekend also, President Zelensky said that France is going to give Ukraine the newest version of the SAMP T NG anti aircraft missile system sometime this year. Now let's break this down. SAMPI is a surface to wear medium range and the T bit is land based. So the T is French for tourist. NG is next generation. So the latest version of the SAMP T, basically it's bigger bigger and better than the last one.
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Colin Freeman
Right?
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Dominic Nichols
Stick with me at the back. This is a joint French Italian project, a mobile vertically launched anti missile anti aircraft weapon. Three person crew. Speed of the missile is about Mach 4.5 150km range 25K, altitude circa 75000ft. So some people, especially the bump if you look on their website will say it to outclasses Patriot. Other places will say well no, the software upgrades are a bit more clunky, not quite as as user friendly as Patriot. It's in the same ballpark and it's a good system to have and it's jolly nice of France to give them to Ukraine Just finally for me we've been talking a lot recently about the whole Starlink shut down Telegram shut down Russia wanting everyone to move on to Max. Their the state sponsors who rumors exactly all the cool, all that kind of stuff Now Russian mill blogger was speaking over the weekend says that Russian military police are checking phones to ensure that service personnel have deleted Telegram. I say this is all part of the state control push to get the Max messaging app widely taken up. The mill blogger also said that some parts of the Russian military have issued instructions for service members to remove Telegram, while others complain that Max is very inconvenient to use. There are recent also been reports I saw that Russian Special forces units have banned the use of Max, saying it's rubbish and want to use Telegram anyway. Russian Minister of Digital Development, Communications and Mass Media guy called Max Shadyev. He said no decision has yet been made to restrict Telegram in the war zone in Ukraine. Interesting use of the phrase. So whether or not this is local commanders just trying to do what they think the boss up top wants them to do, we don't know. But clearly the whole getting people off Telegram and onto Max is not going swimmingly as far as the project manager in Kremlin is concerned.
- [12:48]
Francis Dernley
Interesting. Reminds me of during the Second World War. The major difference some historians argue between French forces and German forces during Blitzkrieg was their communications that the Germans had far better comms between units and divisions than the French did and that that was actually what paid a pivotal role I suppose beyond the strategy and and everything else. But anyway an interesting debate going on in historiography at the moment. But let's dive into the political realm then. Despite the US easing of sanctions on Russian oil, there are historic price rises on global energy markets today, with shares in big oil companies soaring to all time highs. The combined market value of the 6 stock market listed Western super majors has soared by more than 130 billion in just two weeks now President Trump told NBC News on Saturday that the oil sanctions temporarily lifted against Russia will go back as soon as the crisis is over. But this now seems to set to become a much longer crisis than originally envisaged, as American attempts to potentially extract themselves from the war, claiming its mission accomplished, come up against the fact that Iran shows little sign of backing down over the closure of the Strait of Hormuz, that key cause of energy price fluctuation. I want to have oil for the world, I want to have oil, trump said, justifying the easing of the sanctions, whilst also admitting in an interview with Fox that Putin may be helping Iran a little bit, I guess then justifying it. And he probably thinks we're helping Ukraine right now. The whole crisis has drawn big dividing lines between the US's Western allies, with Washington now demanding assistance from France, Britain, Germany and others, or else threatening major consequences for NATO if they don't send warships, which in London and Berlin at least they are very reluctant to do. Only about an hour or so ago, Friedrich Merz, Germany's chancellor, said this is not NATO's war. Now it has still totally derailed the negotiation process between Russia, the US and the Ukrainians, with President Zelensky claiming that the war and the security situation won't allow White House officials to leave the us. Now, speaking of the negotiations, according to the Financial Times, Russia has rejected attempts by European allies to take on a greater role in them, citing European diplomats involved in the talks themselves. French officials met with Russian presidential aide Yuri Ushakov in Moscow last month. His response, it's claimed, was blunt. Sorry, actually no, we don't want you there. Now it makes sense any European involvement would be negative for Moscow. And given the US isn't demanding that the Europeans take part, why would Moscow accept it now? Meanwhile, the number of countries looking at events in the Middle east with growing horror at the vulnerability of their own defenses from drones is only increasing. Tokyo, fascinatingly, is considering signing an arms transfer agreement to acquire Ukrainian made drones from Kyiv, according to one report. But selling drones won't come close to fulfilling Ukraine's financial needs, according to an exclusive report by our friends at the Kyiv Independent. Ukraine has few options if Hungary keeps the EU 90 billion funding frozen. A recent $1.5 billion transfer from the International Monetary Fund and help from Japan, which is front loading over 1 billion euros in funds that are originally scheduled to arrive later in the year, will keep Kyiv's finances afloat until the end of spring, according to Ukrainian officials. But one top figure, speaking with the Kyiv Indy on the condition of anonymity, said there was no reliable alternative option beyond the spring. Unless the European money starts flowing, roughly $6 billion in funding from the World bank and the Ukraine facility, an EU funding program that we've talked about many times could be delayed as the country's parliament struggles to pass the necessary reforms to unlock the cash. Amid that parliamentary crisis we've referred to so many times. As such, the Hungarian election result could be pivotal for Ukraine. Likewise, the decision by European leaders to hold the line with regard to Russian sanctions. Now, Belgium's prime minister has been one of the first to break cover and call for the EU to normalise relations with Russia to access cheap energy, calling it common sense. Now, you may recall this is the same prime minister who objected to the seizure of frozen Russian assets and using those to fund the war instead. As a result, we had to deal with the loan from the eu, which is now being blocked. Now, in private, he says European leaders agree with him, but no one dares say it out loud. We must end the conflict in the interest of Europe without being naive towards Putin, he said, given that we are unable to pressure Putin by sending weapons to Ukraine and cannot suffocate his economy without US support. Only one method making a deal. Now, experts, including several that we've spoken to on the podcast over the years, would question the view that Europe alone cannot suffocate the Russian economy if it had the willpower. But as we've seen over the years, that willpower is seriously lacking. But to end with a couple of stories in the cultural realm, Mr. Nobody against Putin, a film about a Russian schoolteacher who secretly recorded his everyday life inside his school to show how much it had changed under the pressure of state propaganda after 2022, won best documentary FE at the Oscars. Now, I've not seen it yet, but it underscores the vital point we've spoken about many times about the brainwashing of the next generation being perpetrated by the regime. One of the many lies in the film is that in many European countries, there's apparently school children are taught no agricultural production whatsoever. One teacher tells his students in the film the French, they're used to eating oysters and frogs. They'll hold out for a while. But what about everyone else?
- [18:49]
Dominic Nichols
Bloody French.
- [18:50]
Francis Dernley
I know. Well, I'm glad Adelaide's not here today. She'd be outraged. But anyway, Sean Penn also won his third Academy Award, but skipped the proceedings on Sunday and headed to Ukraine Instead, according to the New York Times. Now, as you'll know, he's been a vocal supporter of the country over many years, filming a documentary of his own there called superpower back in 2022 about the invasion and famously giving his Oscar to Zelenskyy. Now, just lastly, again, in the cultural Realm, Ukraine placed seventh in the medal standings at the 2026 Winter Paralympic Games, which concluded yesterday after weeks of controversy surrounding Ukrainian athletes ability to express themselves or not. In the end, Ukraine secured three gold medals, eight silvers and another eight bronzes. Ukraine has since imposed in the last 24 hours sanctions on 10 Russian Paralympic athletes who fought in the war and they say promoted Kremlin propaganda. Kyiv also continues to accuse the IPC of pressuring Ukrainian athletes and restricting cymbals, calling the organization's conduct a disgrace. So, a tainted Winter Olympics in the eyes of many. So that brings us up to date, but let's go now to Colin Freeman, returning to the podcast for the first time in a little while. Colin, you've written a piece for the Telegraph reflecting on your latest trip to Ukraine, more of which we'll hear about shortly. But I just wanted to start by quoting the first line of the article, which is. Is the phone call that probably saved my life was not a particularly welcome one at first. Perhaps you want to take it from there.
- [20:24]
Colin Freeman
Yes. So this was back in 2023, while covering the summer counter offensive. My translator, Eugene and I were in the town of Kramatorsk in eastern Ukraine, which many listeners will may be vaguely familiar with. It's a town essentially the rearwards operating base for a lot of what goes on on the front line in the Donbass, which lies about 20 kilometers further east. And we had had a long day in Kramatorsk going, not a particularly successful day, as I recall, but a treat beckoned. We'd gone to the Ria Pizza restaurant, which was Kramatorsk's, one of Kramatorsk's best restaurants. And while many other places obviously had shut due to the war, this place had kept going. And not the sort of place you'd expect to find in a sort of provincial city in. In Ukraine, let alone somewhere in a war zone. Very sort of flash, stylish pizzeria and bar, although the bar was not operational, sadly, where you could get very nice pizza. And it was a place that everybody used to gather. Most war zones have a hub like this place where journalists, diplomats, politicians and indeed soldiers, Ukrainian soldiers would gather, mainly because it was the only place you could get Anything decent to eat. So we sat down at 7 o', clock, looking forward to ordering a nice pizza, maybe a dessert. And then literally at two minutes past seven, and I remember the timings very well, my translator's phone rang. It was a military contact that we'd been trying to get hold of for about a week. I'd had more or less given up on several days before. And this guy said, look, I'm in in Kramators, just passing through for the next hour. If you still want to meet, by all means come and meet me, but you'll have to get. You get a move on. And so I sort of thought, well, shall we bother? Because the story had gone really by then. Luckily, being the dutiful Telegraph reporter that I, I said, no, duty calls. So we put down our menus, did not order. Eugene no doubt quietly cursing under his breath, and off we went to the far side of town where we duly interviewed this chap. He was an intelligence officer, actually, and as it came out, it was a particularly enlightening interview anyway. But then at half past seven, midway through the interview, 28 minutes after we had left the restaurant, we heard an almighty explosion on the far side of town. And we finished the interview and went off to investigate our Ukrainian intelligence contact and said, I think that sounds like it was a missile that had landed, and it sounds like it landed somewhere near the pizza place that you were eating in. So I thought, well, we'll go and check it out, see what's happened. And it hadn't landed near the pizza restaurant. It hadn't landed right on top of it. And as we arrived, we could see fire engines and rescue services going there, ferrying out dead and injured. And as I looked into the wreckage, I could sort of see the sort of rough area where we had been sitting just 28 minutes before, just a pile of wreckage and human debris. And yes, basically, had we not had that phone call quite literally out of the blue, and had I not decided, partly on a whim, to think, yes, we will go and press ahead and see this guy, then we would have been sat in there and we might well have been among either the 414 people who died or the 60 people who were injured. So I've had a few close shaves in, in my life as a reporter, but nothing really quite like that. It's like getting on a flight that crashed or something. Anyway, ever since that incident, which became one of the, you know, the more notorious examples of Russian atrocities during the war, some listeners may remember, it was the incident where The Ukrainian novelist Victoria Amalina was killed and along with two twin girls, age and numerous members of the restaurant staff, and also several Ukrainian soldiers. Ever since that incident, I've wondered what the long term impact on the town would be. And so that's what we went back to see last month to take a look around Kramatorsk and to sort of try and see what happens to a city where it's not just another bombing, but it's a bombing that a kills a great number of people and also one that rips out the kind of social heart of the town and is a very sort of severe blow to morale and so on, and also, of course, killed a large number of local people. I think there was either seven or eight members of the restaurant staff who died, who were all kind of young people, they all aged in their mid-20s. And so that was what I was attempting to sort of try and find out, really.
- [25:09]
Francis Dernley
And what did you discover, Colin?
- [25:11]
Colin Freeman
Well, a lot of the restaurant staff had moved on. Perhaps not surprisingly for the town itself, it had already suffered a very bad atrocity at the start of the war when the main railway station was hit and that killed 60 civilians. That was one of the worst incidents right at the very beginning of the war. So, you know, the people there were relatively resilient. And in some ways I got a sense that like, well, you know, shit happens and we just, we kind of carry on. There was a sense of anger, though, that the Russians had chosen to hit this place, describing it as a kind of military installation because there were soldiers there. Now, anyone who spent any time in Ukraine, especially anywhere near the front lines, will know that every cafe, every garage, every civilian place of rest and respite, you know, every shop, every cafe, you'll always find soldiers in there. Because this is a civilian war, Russia has forced the populace at large to mobilize. So there are people in uniform everywhere, not just sitting around in barracks. So there was a sense of outrage at that. But the people who originally operated the pizza restaurant to their credit had reopened a new one elsewhere in town. I didn't dwell on that a great deal in the piece because they want the Russians getting ideas about simply targeting it again. At one point they'd actually thought of reopening a little tiny pizza kiosk on the spot where the wreckage of the restaurant still stands, although they decided not to in the end. But that was going to be just as a sort of symbol of the defiance against the Russians. Another thing that I think troubled the town quite a bit psychologically, Was that a member of their own community, a pro Russian individual who had originally been part of the separatist movement, had been arrested and convicted of giving away the coordinates for the restaurant to a Kremlin handler. So there was a sort of sense of a traitor in their midst. But I think perhaps the comment that really struck me overall, actually, was when I interviewed the deputy mayor, who, unlike a lot of people, did not do much more than shrug. When I asked him what the impact was on the town, he said, obviously, it was awful. It was horrific. It was a place that he'd eaten in himself. And so it felt very personal. But he kind of paused for a minute, and he said, look, to be honest, after this many years of war, people just shrug in these situations. And they think, right, it didn't happen to me, so I don't really care, and life goes on. Which is clearly a very sad message. And also I interviewed one or two survivors, people who actually in the restaurant, unlike me, who were in there when it. When the missile landed. And it was a very kind of random pattern of destruction. People sat in one row of seats would emerge unscathed, while people sat right next to them would be killed or very badly injured. One lady I interviewed, Leila Trochemitz, who features in the story, she survived, and she actually shot a video of what happened, of the aftermath that you can see on the website narrating it in English so that people in the wider world could understand what had happened. And she said that, you know, in terms of the sort of the random cruelty of these events, she mentioned that a few months later, she had bumped into one of the waiters who had moved to Kiev and was now working in a restaurant there. And by chance, she happened to go there one day, and she recognized him. I think they knew each other a little bit anyway, because she was quite a regular customer at the pizza restaurant in Kramatorsk, and they sort of recognized each other. And then he told her that his girlfriend, who also worked at the restaurant, had been working there that night. He had swapped shifts with her, and as a result, she had been killed while he had survived. And I said to Leland, what do you say to each other in that situation? She said, well, nothing, really. You just kind of, you know, we sort of gave each other a hug and looked at each other, and then we moved on. And I think that's probably about as much as I can really say on it. It was quite an emotional trip, but, you know, very much a reminder that while this was a big deal, for me, that this is everyday life for most Ukrainians. A great deal of Ukrainians have a story of a near miss like this and it's why so many Ukrainians have WhatsApp groups, just like we do here in the UK. But these are WhatsApp groups, not for banter, but just to check whether their loved ones, their family and friends are alive each time that a city gets bombed. And I know the world's attention is diverted to, to places like Iran at the moment, but you know, that, that still goes on.
- [30:09]
Dominic Nichols
We interviewed Roman Trocheemets last week, or maybe the week before, the brother of the lady you, you met. He was an interesting character, civilian, took to uniform after the, well, actually the 2014 invasion, then, then went back to civilian life and, and then back into uniform subsequently. But he was talking to us about his experiences and he was saying how now. So he was at the restaurant with his sister, as you've described, and he was very affected by the feeling that he, he'd just come out of hospital having had a period of rehabilitation, having been injured, and he was given two or maybe three days off, I think it was before going back to his unit. And it was in that time that he was at the pizzeria having some dinner and he said for him, one of the, the biggest things he had to come to terms with was the sudden imposition of the war in an area where he was not in war mode, if you know what I mean. I know that, I know the whole country is, but he was, he was sort of soldier in a different setting, pizzeria. And that's when great violence that he was quite used to. He was quite used to the scale of violence and death, in fact, but because it was so totally out of the ordinary, out of his, if you like, the. Where it should have been in his story. He said he was very, very impacted by that. And it just chimed with me just that where you were talking, you say you went back to the town to see the long term impact on the town. But if I may just with that thought about Roman in mind, what, if anything, has been the long term impact on you? Have you noticed your attitude to risk changing or your attitude to how you approach the job changing over the years since that incident?
- [31:39]
Colin Freeman
Not really, no. I mean, I think it was a case of the law of averages catching up with me a little bit. I've always felt that in Ukraine there are missile strikes that can hit any city, you know that not just the cities on the front lines in the eastern Donbas. Area, for example, and it's a bit like lightning, a bolt that comes down from above very fast and without any warning. And you just have to be hopeful that you're not underneath it when it strikes. But I suppose I've probably spent about six months of the last three years there. And as time goes on, there is that slightly increased risk that your number will come up. But for this particular occasion, no, it hasn't really changed my kind of attitude to risk. It's been quite a hard one to process in a way, because normally if you have a very close shave, you're there, you see the threat, you witness something happening, there's all those sort of the adrenaline rushing so on, that sort of thing. Whereas with this occasion, I arrived on the scene nearly half an hour after it had happened, and therefore I'm not sort of directly involved. But the chances that you know of me walking away from that, if I'd been told that your only chance of getting out of here is, is to wait on the off chance that that guy rings up, I'd have said, well, that's a 10 million to one chance. So, no. But for a lot of people in the town, I think prior to that, and I mentioned earlier that there was this bombing of the railway station, the pizza restaurant had been open until then, and they were doing what a lot of Ukrainian restaurants do, did at the start of the war, which was supplying pizza to the troops and generally all hands to the pump. After the railway bombing in early 2022, I think the restaurant shut for a bit and then apparently they reopened a year later by popular demand. People saying, come on, we need your pizza. There's nowhere else decent in town. But then when it was hit again, I think that for many people in Kramators, that was kind of the final straw. And a lot of people then left the city just feeling like everything's getting hit, everything precious is getting targeted. And I did pick up a sense there that among some people that for all the talk of fighting and saving these cities, you know, because Kramatorsk is one of the four garrison cities that's potentially up for exchange under Donald Trump's peace plan, which many Ukrainians would not countenance, but there was a sense there for some people that I stress this is just among some, that the spirit of the city had been lost a bit, that everyone who could already leave had left. And most of the people who are still there, there's a few hardy souls who, who just don't want to leave because they're patriotic. But a lot of people there don't want what aren't leaving because they simply can't. And certainly a few said to me, if this city ends up being the price for peace, then we're happy to pay it. On the other hand, we were. We went to the cemetery at one point and, you know, there were people there, a grieving mother who said, there is no way I will want to leave this town because this is where my son is buried. And I can't possibly imagine being in one town when he is buried here, especially if that would be behind Russian lines.
- [34:51]
Francis Dernley
Well, Colin, thank you very much for your reflections on that. Before you go, were there any other thoughts that occurred to you over the course of your recent trip to Ukraine? Where else did you travel to?
- [35:01]
Colin Freeman
I was up in Kharkiv in the very cold weather, the -25 degrees centigrade period of the winter, which was new for me. Kharkiv actually wasn't quite as badly off as Kiev. They had electricity and lighting most of the time. I was asking that usual question that you ask of everybody, I suppose, how is morale? And so on.
- [35:22]
David Knowles
And.
- [35:22]
Colin Freeman
And it gets a more difficult question to ask every time you go, especially when the war just seems to be dragging on without end. And that, I think, was the sense of things at the moment, that the country is in a little bit of a gray zone. There is no real sense of the being an immediate turning point either way. The front lines have stabilized in the last few months, certainly since this time last year, and things appear to be slipping back, not perhaps to quite being in Ukraine's favor, but a little bit more stable. On the other hand, no one thinks that Ukraine is about to overwhelm the Russians and that the war is likely to last for another couple of years, which is clearly quite a considerable amount of time. I did also speak to a few soldiers as well, whose morale seemed to be remarkably high, given that they were spending 20 days at a time in foxholes in minus 25 seats, where really they've got hardly any heating or anything else. The one, the guys I spoke to seemed to have a smile on their face about them. It was pointed out to me that for a lot of them, they're getting paid $3,000 a month if they're on getting combat pay, up on the sort of hotter spots of the front lines. And that's money that they can bank for themselves and their children, who I think they hope may enjoy better lives, a better future that they themselves may have given up on a bit. So you know, there is that sort of side to it. There is a sort of financial recompense side to it, just as there is for the Russians perhaps, and also the, the patriotism as well, and the fact that they don't really have much choice. But I mean, it's equally been pointed out to me that for a lot of those soldiers, what's life going to be like after when they come back? They've spent four years just doing that and nothing else. And that's a formidably hard adjustment to make coming back to ordinary life again. They don't really pay much attention to the ebb and flow of even the wider battle. Sometimes it's just their own particular sector that they have any feel for. And also I do what I call the Witkoff test, which is to ask people, so what do you think about the Trump backed peace talks? There's usually a grunt and then I say, do you know who Steve Witkoff is? Trump's presidential envoy to the talks. And I don't think anybody I spoke to heard of him except one person who was a political analyst. So it did make me think. It puts in perspective a little bit the amount of time that we on the podcast perhaps rightly devote to the subject of the Trump backed peace talks. And you know, among those who are kind of in the thick of it in Ukraine, there really isn't an awful lot of attention paid to it.
- [38:05]
Francis Dernley
Well Colin, thanks as ever for your time. We'll link in the show notes to your article and I'd always point listens to your brilliant book as well about the International Legion, which will put a link to as well in the episode Description.
- [38:31]
David Knowles
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bill. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match Limited by state law not available in all states.
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- [40:31]
Francis Dernley
Let's go to our final thoughts, ending with you in a moment, Colin. But Dom first, over to you.
- [40:36]
Dominic Nichols
Yeah, well, I just want to say today marks the fourth anniversary of the Russian strike on the Mariupol Drama Theater where hundreds of people, mainly women, children and the elderly, had been sheltering. Now it's thought that two 500 kilogram bombs were dropped on the theater, despite the word children or kids being written in huge letters outside. Estimates on the number of dead in the strike vary wildly over the years. We don't know for certain, but Human Rights Watch say at least 15, which seems very, very low. Associated Press have 600. But somewhere in there, most commentary I've seen are up in the hundreds. But nobody really knows Amnesty Road report about the strike. They said Russian forces most likely intentionally targeted the building knowing it was a civilian site and said its investigation found no convincing evidence to support other possible possible explanations, including a claim by the Russian Defense Ministry that the attack had been carried out from within the building as part of a false flag operation. Anyway, that was four years ago today. Worth a note that coming up in the next couple of weeks, hopefully interview I had with a guy called Petro who was a member of the Mariupol resistance and then the resistance movement more widely. He talks about that strike and another activity that Mariupol Resistance has got up to in the city subsequent to them. But four years ago today, I remember
- [41:55]
Francis Dernley
reporting on it on the time, one of the worst atrocities of that phase of the war. But there have been many and we've of course just heard about another one that took place the following year. But Colin, where would you like to leave listeners today?
- [42:06]
Colin Freeman
I'll leave you with the thoughts of Taras Natushny, who is an activist in Ukraine and a journalist as well. He's in his mid-40s, about a decade younger than me, but his life has been quite eventful, to put it mildly. He was was involved in the 2014 Maidan Revolution, which listeners will be familiar with, led to the fall of the pro Kremlin government in Ukraine. And his sons followed very much in his footsteps. His youngest son, Roman was a teenage activist at that time. And then his other son, his oldest son Vassal, went and joined the army and fought against the separatists in the Donbass. Anyway, when the full scale invasion began in 2022, both his sons quickly enrolled and his youngest son Roman was was killed in combat in the summer of 2022. And then just last year, his other son Vassal was also killed. So he's lost not one of his offspring, but two in the war. And I mean, the pain that somebody endures as a result of that I think can only really be guessed at. But I asked him really, you know, whether he was happy for the war. To said that really amidst the pro Ukrainians who took part in the battles of 2014, there was a sense then that they really had to push very, very hard to win that particular revolution. Right until the end, right until President Yanukovych, the pro Kremlin president, fled. They thought they were going to get beaten back and they were going to all get massacred by government snipers who did shoot a lot of people at that time. And it was only right at the end end that the government collapsed and things went their way. And he says that's going to be the way with this war against Russia as well. There has been immense hardship, but eventually he thinks they will wear the Russians down. And he speaks not just from the perspective of the 2014 revolution, but also from way back in Soviet times when he took part in the first pro Ukrainian anti communist demonstrations way back in the 1980s. So yeah, for all that we hear that Ukraine is exhausted, tired and everything else, he says that the Ukrainians are still, from his perspective, very much capable of fighting it through and waiting to the end. And I think if you've been through what he's been through, you can probably pretty much endure anything.
- [44:40]
Francis Dernley
Ukraine the Latest is an original podcast from the Telegraph created by David Knowles. Every episode featuring us in the studio maps and battlefield footage is now available to watch on our YouTube channel. Subscribe@www.YouTube.com crane the latest there's a link in the description. You can also sign up to the Ukraine the Latest newsletter each week we answer your questions, provide recommended reading and give exclusive analysis and behind the scenes insights plus diagrams of the front lines and weaponry to complement our reporting. It's free for everyone including non subscribers. You can find the link to sign up in the episode description. If you appreciate our work, please consider following Ukraine the latest on your preferred podcast app and leave us a review as it helps others find the show. Please also share it with those who may not be aware we exist. You can also get in touch directly to ask questions or give comments by emailing ukrainepole podelegraph.co.uk we continue to read every message. You can also contact us directly on X. You'll find our handles in the description. As ever, we're especially interested to hear where you're listening from around the world. And finally, to support our work and stay on top of all of our Ukraine news, analysis and dispatches from the ground, please subscribe to the Telegraph. You can get one month for free, then two months for just one pound at www.telegraph.co.uk Ukraine the latest Ukraine the latest was today Produced by Rachel Porter. Executive producers are Francis Dernley, Louisa Wells and David Knowles.
- [46:19]
David Knowles
My name is David Knowles.
- [46:21]
Dominic Nichols
Thank you all for listening.
- [46:22]
Colin Freeman
Goodbye
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Colin Freeman
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Colin Freeman
Oh right.
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David Knowles
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the Name youe Price Tool from Progressive you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bill. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law not available in all states.
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