Russian position 'collapses' in southeast & the drone attacks Putin ‘doesn't want you to see’

Summary

Ukraine: The Latest – May 19, 2026

Episode Theme:
A detailed breakdown of the rapidly changing battlefield in southeastern Ukraine, escalating drone warfare affecting both Ukraine and Russian heartland, Western sanctions and their loopholes, shifting diplomatic and domestic landscapes, plus a powerful segment on war crimes investigations and the lived experience of Ukrainian journalists.

Hosts/Guests:

• Francis Durnley (Host)
• Dominic Nichols (Associate Editor, Defence)
• Tommy Walker (Contributor)
• Adeli Pojo Mponte (Interviewer)
• Yevgenia Motorevska (Head of War Crimes, Kyiv Independent)

---

1. Military Updates & Escalations

Timestamps: 03:52–10:00

NATO Jet Shoots Down Suspected Ukrainian Drone Over Estonia

• Incident: A Romanian NATO jet, on Baltic air policing duty, shot down a suspected Ukrainian drone over Estonia (approx. four hours before recording).
• Estonia’s Defence Minister: The drone likely originated from Ukraine and was targeting Russia. Estonia has not granted Ukrainian drones airspace access, responding "fairly tersely" to the incident (04:06).
• Ukraine’s Foreign Ministry: Condemned Moscow for allegedly redirecting Ukrainian drones into NATO territory; officially apologized to Estonia.

Russian Defensive 'Collapse' Near Stepnohirs'k, Zaporizhzhia

• Ukraine’s military intelligence (HUR) released video confirming Ukrainian forces have pushed Russian troops out of Stepnohirs'k.
• Special Operations: Ukraine’s Artan unit conducted coordinated offensive actions, clearing Russians from fortified positions and securing the town (06:41).

“As a result of fighting in difficult urban conditions, the Russian occupying forces were knocked out of fortified positions and key locations in Stepnihirsk came under the control of the Security and Defence Forces of Ukraine.” (Dom Nichols, 06:59)

Grim Situation in Pokrovsk

• Ukraine’s 7th Rapid Response Corps reports troops in Pokrovsk are nearly cut off; Russian forces control surrounding high ground and buildings.
• Russian drone and electronic warfare dominance creates a 25 km "kill zone" north of Pokrovsk; only drone-based logistics are possible for Ukrainian troops.
• Similar desperate positions persist in other contested regions like Kupiansk and Konstantinivka, with Russian pressure intensifying.

Russian Attacks Across Ukraine

• Six dead, 34 wounded in Russian drone and missile strikes (Kharkiv, Donetsk, Kherson worst hit).
• Russia launched 209 drones overnight; 180 intercepted. Several gas infrastructure targets in Chernihiv were struck, causing significant damage but no casualties.

Ukrainian Drones Hit Deep Inside Russia

• Strikes on Yaroslavl (200 km NE of Moscow) and multiple other sites, including the Orotanari Oil Refinery near Moscow, have occurred for two consecutive days.
• Moscow air defenses intercepted four drones; official Russian coverage remains minimal and highly sanitized.

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2. Kremlin Reaction & Information Control

Timestamps: 10:00–11:00

Russian State Media Censors Drone Attack Imagery

• In response to recent large-scale Ukrainian drone attacks around Moscow—including apocalyptic fireballs at oil facilities—Russian authorities have banned unauthorized sharing of drone strike images.
• Reports highlight a stark gap between the catastrophic realities on the ground and sanitized state media coverage, which dedicated just “about one minute of airtime to the attacks” on national news (Francis Durnley, 10:06).

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3. Sanctions, Oil Markets & US Policy

Timestamps: 10:45–14:53

US Extends Sanctions Waiver on Russian Oil

• After speculation about a hardline shift, the US Treasury (Sec. Scott Bessant) renewed a 30-day general license for the trade of sanctioned Russian oil.
• Official justification: Ensuring oil reaches “the most energy vulnerable countries” and limiting China’s ability to stockpile discounted Russian oil (12:10).
• Critics note real impact: Russia netted an extra $4B+ during the initial waiver due to high oil prices (13:23).

“Russia is pretty much one of the most vulnerable countries here ... They’ve been very soft on Russia. So it’s unsurprising that they’ve extended this...” (Dom Nichols, 12:38)

• President Zelensky: Strikes have forced a 10% decrease in Russian oil refining capacity this year, escalating Russia’s budget deficit (14:26).

Strategic Impact

• US domestic fuel prices rising due to global oil market volatility, impacting “Main Street” regardless of US status as net petroleum exporter.
• Trump/China factor: Ongoing US anxiety over oil prices bleeding into domestic politics ahead of election season (15:11).

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4. China, Global Diplomacy & Hungary’s Political Pivot

Timestamps: 16:37–22:16

Putin’s Diplomacy in China

• Putin visits Beijing to discuss “multiple bilateral relations,” especially the Siberia 2 gas pipeline.
• China positions itself as a global diplomatic hub, with reports of President Xi allegedly telling Trump that “Putin might end up regretting his invasion of Ukraine.” (17:29)
• Trump reportedly suggested the three powers unite against the International Criminal Court.

Hungary’s Domestic Reset Under PM Peter Magyar

• New PM Peter Magyar removes physical barriers around his office to symbolize a break from Viktor Orban’s closed-off regime (20:32).
• Hungarian-Polish relations rebooting: high-level delegation planned, policy focus includes legal/cultural guarantees for ethnic Hungarians in Ukraine.
• Political theatre and realignment within Hungary signal a significant shift in EU/Ukrainian alignments.

---

5. War Crimes Investigations: Kyiv Independent Interview

Timestamps: 22:16–44:38

Guest: Yevgenia Motorevska, Head of War Crimes Investigation, Kyiv Independent
Interviewer: Adeli Pojo Mponte

Founding and Scope of the War Crimes Unit

• Established three years ago due to the vast scale of Russian war crimes, now numbering over 200,000 Ukrainian investigations (23:06).
• Unique approach: Producing documentaries that situate present-day atrocities within a long historical pattern of Russian abuses—“Our experience is not new for us” (23:46).

Patterns of Atrocity and Historical Parallels

• Modern Russian torture methods are direct continuations of Soviet techniques; patterns of child abduction and “genocidal intent” are evident (27:03).
• Open-source intelligence is critical but increasingly difficult due to Russian operational security and information suppression (35:05).

Investigative Methods & Risks

• Team of seven staff and many freelancers; dangers to sources and journalists in occupied territories are extreme.
• Infiltration/investigative journalism: Passing as Russian journalists to obtain sensitive information when direct access is impossible.

“I was able to obtain a lot of very important information … we identified some high ranking Russian official who coordinated this operation … these lootings were supervised by FSB Russian Security Service.” (Yevgenia Motorevska, 37:51)

• Ethical dilemma: Withholding some high-impact stories (e.g., the murder of a Ukrainian POW during admission to a Russian camp) due to the risk to surviving relatives.

Memorable Quotes

• On Russia’s ultimate war goal:

  “Russia has only one goal, to erase Ukrainian identity and turn all of us … into Russia.” (Motorevska, 27:03)

• On justice:

  “Justice for me? Putin in the prison.” (Motorevska, 44:28)

---

6. Notable Moments & Quotes

• The surreal minimization of mass drone attacks on Moscow by Russian state TV:

  “State broadcasters dedicated about one minute, one minute of airtime to the attacks…” (Francis Durnley, 10:06)

• US sanctions flip-flopping:

  “They've extended it again. … This is the third time that they've granted a sanctions waiver now … Provided Russia with roughly $150 million per day, more than $4 billion by the time the first exemption expired.” (Tommy Walker, 11:55–13:23)

• On oil’s impact on US politics:

  “It’s going to bite him in the ass. You know, an ass you could keep biting all night and never bite the same bit twice…” (Dom Nichols, 15:11)

---

7. Pop Culture & Closing Thoughts

Timestamps: 46:05–End

• Brief, lighthearted reflection on Eurovision’s cultural impact in Ukraine and the UK; Ukraine finishes 9th.
• Revealed: Tommy Walker’s alter-ego as “DJ Basic.”

---

Key Takeaways

• Military: Ukraine is regaining some ground in Zaporizhzhia, facing dire situations elsewhere, and effectively striking deep into Russia with drones.
• Geopolitics: US policy wavers on Russian oil sanctions amid wider global instability and election-year pressures.
• Propaganda: Russian state media scrambles to hide the worsening impact of Ukrainian strikes.
• Justice: War crimes documentation is essential but fraught with danger; the intent to erase Ukrainian identity is a driving Russian strategic principle.
• Diplomacy: Major recalibrations underway in both Hungary and China’s external relations signal a shifting landscape for Ukraine and its Western backers.

---

Essential Quotes with Timestamps

• On Russian atrocity strategy:

  “Russia has only one goal, to erase Ukrainian identity and turn all of us, all Ukrainians into Russia.” (Yevgenia Motorevska, 27:03)

• On investigative risks:

  “It’s very difficult to get any information. … Dozens of cases when Ukrainian people were arrested illegally, detained only based on suspicion that they had some communication with Ukrainian side.” (Motorevska, 28:36)

• On open-source work:

  “We usually use open sources … but now it’s more difficult because Russian commanders changed it and some of Russian soldiers closed their social media accounts, deleted some information from social media.” (Motorevska, 35:05)

• Personal view of justice:

  “Justice for me? Putin in the prison.” (Motorevska, 44:28)

---

Further Listening:

• For battlefield maps and visuals, find the episode on YouTube at Ukraine: The Latest YouTube Channel
• For supporting independent Ukrainian journalism, see [Kyiv Independent membership link in show notes].

Contact: Email questions to [e-mail]

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This episode blends frontline military updates, major geopolitical developments, revealing insight into Russian information control, and deep investigative journalism on war crimes. Highly recommended for those seeking a nuanced understanding beyond the headlines.

Transcript

[David Knowles]

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[Dominic Nichols]

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[Francis Durnley]

I'm Francis Durnley and this is Ukraine. The latest today, after a NATO fighter jet shoots down a suspected Ukrainian drone over Estonia, we examine the mounting risk

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

escalation on the eastern flank.

[Francis Durnley]

Then we look at the reports of a collapse in a Russian defensive line near a settlement in Zaporizhzhia before turning to Moscow and assessing how the Kremlin

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

and Russian state media are reporting or

[Francis Durnley]

not news of Ukraine's major strikes on its infrastructure. Then later, we take you on a deep dive into how investigations into war crimes have evolved over the past four years.

[Dom (Dominic Nichols)]

Bravery takes you through the most unimaginable hardships to finally reward you with victory.

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

Russia does not want Feeschen Werther.

[Dominic Nichols]

If I'm president, I will have that war settled in one day. 24 hours.

[Dom (Dominic Nichols)]

We are with you not just Today or tomorrow.

[Francis Durnley]

But for 100 years,

[Dominic Nichols]

Nobody's going to break us.

[David Knowles]

We are strong.

[Dominic Nichols]

We are Ukrainians.

[Francis Durnley]

It's Tuesday the 19th of May, four years and 84 days since the full scale invasion began. And today I'm joined by the Telegraph's Associate Editor of Defence, Dominic Nichols and Adeli Pojo Mponte, who speaks to Yevgenia Motorevska, head of war crimes investigations and

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

at the Kyiv Independent.

[Francis Durnley]

But let's start with the military updates then.

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

Dom, where do you want to start today?

[Dom (Dominic Nichols)]

Thanks, Francis. Hi, everyone. So, just in the last few hours, actually, well, last couple of hours, it's been announced that for the first time a NATO jet has shot down a suspected Ukrainian drone over Estonia. This comes from Estonia's Defence Minister, Halo Pavka, a chap we've spoken to before. He said a Romanian jet taking part in one of NATO's air policing mission, the Baltic air policing mission in this case, shot down the drone at midday local Estonia time. That's about four and a half hours ago from now. He said it was likely of Ukrainian origin and aimed at targets in Russia. There's a search underway for the debris. No casualties reported there. Now, the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry accused Moscow of intentionally redirecting Ukrainian drones into NATO territory. In a statement, their Foreign Ministry said, we apologize to Estonia and all of our Baltic friends for such unintended incidents. Mr. Pevke. So Estonia's Foreign minister, he said, I confirm once again that I also spoke with the Ukrainian Defense Minister directly after this incident. Estonia has not granted permission to use its airspace to anyone except its allies, and the Ukrainians did not ask for such permission either. So, you know, a fairly terse response, I think. Elsewhere in Ukraine, not much move on the ground, but Ukraine's military intelligence department, the hu, said yesterday that they pushed Russian forces back from the southeastern town of Stepnihursk. That's in Zaporizhzhia Oblast, about 30k south of Zaporizhzhia city itself, who have posted geolocated footage showing Ukrainian forces operating in central Stepnohursk and southwest of the town having cleared Russian forces or Russian infiltrators out of the area. Now, that was the sector Jack and I visited a couple of weeks ago, or a few weeks ago. It was the ops room that was controlling that area. We'll put a link in the episode notes of the film we made from that, but you'll be able to see from the ops room and now the news of actually what's happening on the ground. Now, the Hoo footage shows soldiers from their Artan Special Unit of Ukraine's military Intelligence engaging forces Russian forces in Stepnihurst. In a statement, the Artan Special Unit said during the operation, which took place in close coordination with adjacent units, military intelligence special forces conducted a series of active offensive actions in order to oust the Russian occupiers from the town and stabilize the situation in the settlement. As a result of fighting in difficult urban conditions, the Russian occupying forces were knocked out of fortified positions and key locations in Stepnihirsk came under the control of the Security and Defence Forces of Ukraine. Now, alongside that, Ukraine's 7th Rapid Response Corps says that they still have troops holding several positions in northern Pokrovsk so in the Donbass now. But they are, in their words, almost cut off. Russian forces, they say, control the high ground and the city's buildings. They say Russia has a lot of surveillance and electronic warfare equipment in Pokrov as well. So this is the Ukrainians again saying that the Russians have established a 25 kilometer kill zone to the north of Pokrov. They say it's covered very, very heavily covered by Russian drones and that Russia holds an unquestionable advantage in drone warfare in that area. Now, in a statement, the 7th Rapid Response Corps said our logistics to these positions are minimal and only possible by air via drones. They added that using ground drones, unmanned ground vehicles, they're just immediately wiped out by Russian FPV drones. So similar to the Kubiansk situation in the northeast of the country where it's thought there are very, very small numbers of Russians still operating in the city, sounds like there's something similar happening in Percross with Ukrainian positions almost well untenable and unable to be resupplied. Now go about 40 kilometers northeast of there and Konstantinivka and the Donbas is under intense pressure from the south and southeast. I just highlight that because there's been a lot of fighting there. Well, in the last few weeks, but particularly over the last day elsewhere, no significant movement on the ground across the rest of the country. Russian attacks across Ukraine killed six and injured at least 34 others yesterday, mostly in Kharkiv, Donetsk and Kherson. 180 of 209 drones fired by Russia were brought down. Russian drones did, however, hit multiple gas infrastructure facilities in Chernihiv Oblast in the north of the country. That was just in the last few hours this morning. This comes from state owned oil and gas company Naftagaz who said there was damage to critically important equipment, although they said personnel at the targeted facilities were evacuated and no casualties reported. Now into Russia. And there are reports this morning of Ukrainian drones hitting Yaroslavl, that's about 200 kilometers northeast of Moscow. Ukraine's general staff have claimed that. And they also said that for the second time in two days, the Orostanari oil refinery in Khistovo in Nizhny Novgorod Oblast, that's a little bit to the southeast, about 300 kilometers east of Moscow, was also hit. There were obviously strikes across the rest of the country as well or elsewhere in Russia because Moscow Mayor Sergei Sobinin also reported that air defense in Moscow had allegedly repelled a drone attack there. Drone attack on the capital. He said four drones were shot down,

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

but he did cite it's going to be drone debris.

[Dom (Dominic Nichols)]

Drone debris, yeah. Yeah. And that's us up to date.

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

Thanks very much, Don.

[Francis Durnley]

Well, if one's looking for an indicator

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

of just how seriously the Kremlin is taking these recent strikes, last week we were of course reporting on Moscow's Anti Terrorism Commission introducing restrictions banning the publication of any drone strike imagery not approved by the authorities. And Antonio Langford in Kyiv has written a fascinating piece for the Telegraph looking at what that means in the real world in terms of the actual reporting of these. Well, they were the largest attacks on Moscow of 2026, I think he was saying earlier in the week. Extraordinary. Now this footage that we've been talking about now for weeks, not just of the recent attacks, has been, well, apocalyptic fireballs, man made volcanoes, toxic rain, some of the worst imagery of the entire conflict. And yet the sanitized coverage on Russian media just shows little of this. So four photographs reproduced across state media this week and the tabloids, television bulletins and telegram channels as well. According to Antonia, she writes, despite being able to see for themselves what's happening, terrorists verified residents were told overnight and into this morning, Air Defence forces repelled one of the most massive Ukrainian drone attacks since the start of the special military operation.

[Francis Durnley]

State broadcasters dedicated about one minute, one

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

minute of airtime to the attacks with one channel's bulletin saying that Ukrainian infrastructure is inflamed despite no evidence. Now our graphics team has produced a map showing where some of those drones hit Moscow and indeed the surrounding area, seemingly targeting the power plants and the oil pumping stations around the capital. Just gives a sense of how close those attacks have been to the centre of power. And we'll link to that in the show notes. But turning properly to the diplomatic realm, an update on a story that you mentioned yesterday, Dom, relating to the US Treasury.

[Francis Durnley]

Now, what were they saying by the

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

time that you were recording yesterday?

[Dom (Dominic Nichols)]

Well, let's go back a bit. So there's a load of oil, Russian oil at sea, going nowhere, certainly not going through the straight Hormuz because of the war there. And in April, or maybe before that, the US said that they would allow some sanctioned Russian oil to be traded on the international market in order to keep the price under control and whatever. They didn't say to help out their pal in the Kremlin, they didn't say that bit. There were a number of extensions. They then brought in sanctions relief to say, actually some Russian oil can be traded. And then they've extended that a couple of times, I think. And the latest extension ran out at one minute past midnight Saturday morning. And so over the weekend, we heard nothing from the US treasury and we thought, oh, maybe, maybe the sanctions are back in place. Maybe the US is now taking a firm stand against Russian oil and denying Putin the ability to raise money to wage his war in Ukraine. That was how we left it as of Monday morning.

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

Yeah, well, plot twist. Do you want to guess what's happened?

[Dom (Dominic Nichols)]

I know what's happened.

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

They've extended it again. Yeah. So U.S. treasury Secretary Scott Bessant justified this by saying, quote, temporary 30 day general license to provide the most vulnerable nations with the ability to temporarily. How many times have we heard that over the last few weeks access Russian oil currently stranded at sea? This extension will provide additional flexibility and we will work with these nations to provide specific licenses as needed. This general license will help to stabilize the physical crude market and ensure oil reaches the most energy vulnerable countries. It will also help reroute existing supply to countries most in need by reducing China's ability to stockpile discounted oil.

[Dom (Dominic Nichols)]

Well, he's not wrong in a way when he's talking about the most vulnerable countries. I mean, Russia is pretty much one of the most vulnerable countries here. So they are, you know, they're helping that. I mean, they just dress up in all this very clever sounding words as though US thickies, then go, oh, it must, it must be fine. Then if someone as bright as Scott Besant puts all these very flowery words together and makes it sound all very grown up and thoughtful and why did he just say, look, we've made an absolute Horlicks of this whole straight Hormuz thing. Straight of Horlicks, maybe we should. You heard it here first, right? I'm coining that. If anyone uses that, I want, I want to cut in the straightaholics and they. They've been very soft on Russia. So it's unsurprising that they've extended this in a very limited way for the most vulnerable countries, but extended this waiver on sanctions against Russian oil.

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

Yeah, it's the third time that they've granted a sanctions waiver now. So Senate Democrats previously said that the initial waiver. This is quite extraordinary, combined with the elevated global oil prices. I wonder why that happened. Provided Russia with roughly $150 million per day, more than 4 billion by the time the first exemption expired. Now, that's according to estimates that were shown to our friends at the Kyiv Independence. So pretty sizeable. And one can imagine that it would have been even more sizable had Ukraine not carried out those strikes on the Baltic that we reported, which made quite a considerable dent on Russia's ability to be able to produce some of this stuff or at least to process it. There are questions, of course, about how much Moscow has actually benefited from the war in Iran, especially given the strikes of recent weeks. In last night's address, President Zelensky had this to say on it. In just months, Russia's oil refining has dropped by 10%, and Russian oil companies are being forced to shut down their oil wells, thanks to our comprehensive pressure at all levels. Within the first five months of this year, Russia's deficit has already grown far beyond what it had planned for the entire year. Putin has, of course, built a war chest, but certainly not enough to fight indefinitely, so one for us to continue to monitor. I mean, when we're assessing these last few months of strikes, I mean, and in the context of the Iran war,

[Francis Durnley]

I think it's going to be difficult

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

to decide who's really benefited the most from this.

[Francis Durnley]

I think there's been a lot of

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

negative consequences for Ukraine, of course, in the economic realm and obviously the political distraction. But at the same time, I'm interested in your thoughts on this, Tommy. It doesn't feel like this has been a great start to the year for Moscow. I mean, in terms of the mood amongst Ukrainians in particular, it seems like the. This is a much more bullish period than we knew last year.

[Dom (Dominic Nichols)]

Yeah, yeah. I think the mood is more. Well, more buoyant sounds a very flippant way of saying it, but the indicators are there, certainly. I mean, what do you want to look at? Do you want to look at the oil situation here and those amazing images of Tapsi, the oil terminal there that was burning for Vesuvius 2.0? Yeah, exactly. Do you want to look at Azov drones flying over Mariupol. I mean, there are indicators there and it's just Russia. I mean, the oil price is a very interesting one. We get people, get a lot of messages here, people saying, well, surely why is Trump getting so hot and bothered and looking to China and elsewhere for help with the straightaholics? Isn't the United States a net exporter of petroleum products? Well, yes, but oil is priced on the international market. The US doesn't set the price, even though they are, they've got so much of the stuff. So the oil price is set on the international market. So the price down on Main street that people in the US Are paying is going up and up and up. You know, despite what Trump says, a lot of his base are paying much more for their fuel because of the war in Iran. Yes, they're a net exporter of petroleum products, but the oil price is not set by Washington. And this is, this is impacting men and women, mum and dad, mom and pop, up and down Main street in U.S. that's why they're hurting. And it's going to, and he knows, Trump knows that this is going to bite him in the ass. You know, an ass you could keep biting all night and never bite the same bit twice, but you know, it's going to bite him on the ass in the middle age. Sorry about that.

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

Well, it's good that you mentioned China, Dom, because of course, as you were mentioning yesterday, Putin is on his way there as we speak. So by the time this goes out, he would probably have landed. He's meeting Xi tomorrow morning or President 11, as you said yesterday, people seem to really like that

[Dom (Dominic Nichols)]

top draw material.

[Francis Durnley]

They loved it.

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

We'll be covering this, of course, in more detail in a future episode, but

[Francis Durnley]

the two leaders, we understand, will discuss

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

multiple by bilateral relations, including the proposed Siberia 2 gas pipeline. Now, following the visit of President Trump in recent days, the Chinese state media is keen to promote this idea that it underscores that Beijing is now the focal point of global diplomacy. Now, that's something they always wanted to leverage when the war in Ukraine began because they were always trying to talk about the fact that they could be the main arbiters of trying to negotiate something else.

[Francis Durnley]

And of course, at the time the

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

Biden administration would say, we can't risk that. That would be awful because obviously of all the issues around China and the fact they're supporting Russia and everything else,

[Francis Durnley]

but let's face it, I mean, China

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

do have a bigger role on global diplomacy now as the Americans have shrinked back in terms of their trying to play a role, certainly with relation to the war in Ukraine. It was interesting that the Financial Times have said that President Xi told Trump during their talks that Putin might end up regretting his invasion of Ukraine. Now, we don't know anything more about that. Indeed, if it's definitely 100% true. But apparently he made the comments during the talks with Trump, whilst at the same time Trump suggested that the three leaders should cooperate against the International Criminal Court. So, I mean, God, to be a fly on the wall in that conversation.

[Francis Durnley]

But anyway, as I say, we'll be

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

covering more about China later this week

[Francis Durnley]

because I know people are particularly interested in this.

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

Let's bring you an update from Hungary and I know this caught your eye as well, Don, when you saw this footage earlier. We can I'll come to it in a moment. But this the new prime minister Peter Magyar's reset of relations with several countries around the European continent. So his minister of foreign affairs, Anita Orban, posted this earlier. She said Hungarian Polish relations are entering a new phase. In the coming days, we will arrive in Poland with a high level delegation with the shared goal of placing our cooperation on new foundations. She is also recalling Viktor Orban's ambassador to Warsaw, saying there's a need for a change. Now, multiple sources familiar with the details of the Hungarian prime minister's first official trip abroad say that according to current plans, he will be accompanied to Poland by half a dozen ministers, which is virtually unprecedented in the recent history of the relations between the two countries. Now, on Ukraine, Magyar said this week that he informed the president of the European Council by phone that he had initiated a round of technical level talks with the Ukrainians at securing legal guarantees as soon as possible for the linguistic, educational and cultural rights of the Hungarian community in Transcarp. Now, that's the issue that we discussed at length at the time that we put out those interviews I did in Hungary. It seems like a very small issue in the grand scheme, particularly relating to the war, but this really matters in Hungarian politics for issues that we've spoken about previously. But and this is I think the most interesting one in domestic policy, too, Magyar is trying to signal the shift in the relationship that the state has with the Hungarian population. So he's personally removed fencing around the Carmelita at the Castle Hill site. This is where Orban's office was located. It's actually where I went for the big press conference where I asked Orban that question back in January. It's the former Catholic monastery and it was cordoned off by the government in 2021. I actually had to pass through it to get into that conference. And in quite extraordinary footage, we see the new Prime Minister literally physically moving these barriers away and saying that this formerly closed off site will be open to the public, saying that this has been a vast expense on the Hungarian people and it should be open to them now.

[Francis Durnley]

It is pretty remarkable footage.

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

He has proven himself a master of the use of social media and in imagery. And some of those interviews that he's done have gone viral with journalists in. In Hungary. Just amazing to watch. But we were talking about this earlier. Dom, what was your reaction when you saw that footage?

[Dom (Dominic Nichols)]

Yeah, I thought, well, clever politics. I don't know if it was staged or. Well, sorry, I don't think it was staged because obviously those barriers have been there for a very long time. He'd obviously thought about it. He chose not to ask his security forces to have them removed before he went did that bit to the press. But that doesn't diminish the fact that he's physically removing the barriers. This is a very tangible break from the past. I thought it was very clever. I thought it was clever the way he. He's addressed the issue of language. He's not sought to downplay it at all because it is a big domestic issue. Viktor Orban sought to weaponize it. So it's not a concocted story, it's real. But Petyamaga, again, not tried to make too much of it, but equally he's not ignored it because it is a touchstone. Worth saying. Actually, we should reiterate that the foreign minister, Ms. Orban, is no relation to Viktor Orban.

[David Knowles]

Yes.

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

So neither was Balash Orban, who I interviewed over there, who worked for Viktor Orban.

[Dom (Dominic Nichols)]

Very Orban, who you haven't interviewed.

[Francis Durnley]

Yes, good point. Actually, there are so many, and I

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

think I'm right in saying that Magyar actually means hungry in Hungarian. So he is Mr. Hungary. Yeah, it's amazing.

[Dom (Dominic Nichols)]

It's very convenient at half past two in the afternoon. I'm Mr. Bloody Magyar every day anyway. Yes, so that's. I digress. No, I thought it was clever politics.

[Francis Durnley]

Let's go to today's interview. Now then, while she was in Kyiv a few weeks ago, Adli spoke with Yevgenia Motorevska, head of the war crimes

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

investigation unit at the Kyiv Independent.

[Francis Durnley]

Yevgenia has been overseeing investigations into the

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

most egregious crimes committed by the Russian forces since the beginning of the invasion from Looting to abduction of children and torture.

[Francis Durnley]

The unit's latest documentary focuses on the

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

war before the war, the annexation of Crimea in 2014. We highly recommend it.

[Francis Durnley]

This is their conversation.

[Adeli Pojo Mponte]

Yevchania, thank you so much for being with me today. We have been reading and watching your work for the last four years at Ukraine, the latest, and you do an amazing job. Can you tell me how the unit got started and what you've been focusing on in the last four years?

[David Knowles]

War Crimes Investigation Unit was launched three years ago and in a few days we will mark our third anniversary of our work. And there were a few reasons why we decided to launch Special Unit which would focus only on Russian atrocities. Because on the one hand we witnessed some huge demand from international audience to understand deeper what is happening in occupied territories, what the situation with human rights violations in Ukraine linked the Russian aggression. And the second reason why we decided to launch the Special unit because we saw huge scale of Russian war crimes in Ukraine. When we started, there were around 80,000 war crimes cases investigated by Ukrainian prosecutor's office. Now there are more than 200,000 war crimes cases in progress. And of course there is only official data by Ukrainian authorities. At the same time, all international media organizations confirm huge scale of Russian aggression and Russian atrocities in Ukraine. Of course, when we started, a lot of international media outlets prepared amazing, very professional stories about some war crimes. But unfortunately, usually there were cases about some isolated crimes. Our main goal was put some historical perspective in our documentaries. And we usually try to give for our audience full picture of Russian war crimes in Ukraine. For instance, one year ago we released our documentary about looting of two museums in Kherson City. Kherson City, one is the biggest cities in southern Ukraine. It was occupied in the beginning of Russian invasion, but in half of year were released by Ukrainian army. And when we told the story to our audience, we prepared separated documentary. We also talk about that it's not something new for Russia because if you visit for instance, one of the most well known Russian museum like the Heritage or Russian State Museum, you can see a lot of items which were found in the territory of modern Ukraine a few centuries ago and which were taken from the territory of modern Ukraine until in 20th century, in 19th century, in the time of Russian empire. Our experience is not new for us. A few weeks ago we released our documentary about tortures and inhuman treatment of Ukrainian civilians in Russian captivity. Sometimes it's official prisons, sometimes it's typical torture chambers in occupied territories or in the territory of Russian Federation. Also we analyzed experience of prisoners of Soviet time. We also analyzed experience of prisoners to Chechens war. Because for us, very important to explain nature of Russian aggression and this historical context of Russian aggression. For our audience, can you give me

[Adeli Pojo Mponte]

some examples of the historical legacy that you're seeing from Soviet times into the actions of nowadays Russia?

[David Knowles]

We usually talk that Russia wagers this war not for territories of awesome benefits. Russia has only one goal, to erase Ukrainian identity and turn all of us, all Ukrainians into Russia. Unfortunately, if we are talking about abduction of Ukrainian children, militarization of Ukrainian children, we can say that there is attempt of genocide. We see a lot of proofs. And you asked me about examples. I mentioned our documentary about torture of civilians in Russian captivities. And we found out that now Russian guards, Russian officers of security service usually use very different methods of torture, like sexual violence, electrocutions, but the same methods Soviet officers used 60 years ago, 70 years ago, 80 years ago against. Against political prisoners, the territory of modern Ukraine, against political prisoners from other republics, Soviet republics. And there is some Russian culture.

[Adeli Pojo Mponte]

How do you decide what to work on and how do you start making sense of the cases that you find?

[David Knowles]

In our team we have only seven full time employees and full of freelancers. Unfortunately, we small team, every time we try to estimate our resources, we try to estimate possibility to obtain information about topic. And of course we usually estimate the scale of crimes. Of course, if we are talking about militarization, you know it, it's huge scale, thousands of Ukrainian kids militarized by Russian soldiers, Russian system. What is very difficult for us, unfortunately, is obtain any information from occupied territories. On the one hand, we see this demand from our international audience, because all members of our team usually travel a lot. Because we usually participate in different conferences, some events abroad. And every time people ask about situation with human rights in occupied territories. And every time we explain that it's very, very difficult to get any information. A few years ago, when the Volki invasion started, of course each of us had a lot of sources. I was able to text to my friends or other Ukrainian journalists in occupied territories which were occupied at the beginning of Volscia invasion and take some pictures, footages for me. Now I cannot do it because it's extremely dangerous for them. We know dozens of cases when Ukrainian people were arrested illegally, detained only based on suspicion that they had some communication with Ukrainian side Ukrainian journalists or Ukrainian authorities. Sometimes we can get some elements, some fragments of information, but it's very difficult to put it in full picture.

[Adeli Pojo Mponte]

Now, four years into the war. What is the information that you're getting from the occupied territories. What are you hearing?

[David Knowles]

Usually when people abroad talk about Russian war crimes, they mention Bucha massacre, they mention maybe Mariupol city. But I usually try to explain that Russian war crimes are ongoing. When we can record some interviews with people who are flat occupied territories, all of them confirm that Russia continues to commit war crimes in occupied territories. We can talk about disappeared people, about network of torture chambers, abduction of Ukrainian kids also. And there are a lot of types of war crimes in occupied territories now. And for us it's very important to talk not only about Russian atrocities committed at the beginning of Volkia invasion, like Irpin city, Bucha, but of course we try to talk about ongoing war crimes.

[Adeli Pojo Mponte]

You've mentioned the danger to journalists in the occupied territories. And you know, there have been very tragic cases. Like Victoria Roshina. I was at her funeral in August. Have any of your collaborators in the occupied territories been arrested or tortured or disappeared?

[David Knowles]

I can talk about case of Victoria Roshina. For me it's personal loss because I was her editor at the beginning of the Voltka invasion, because I was the editor in chief of Ukrainian leading media outlet Romania. And I cooperated with Victoria a lot. I can mistake, but mistake with numbers. It's better to check. But dozens, a few dozens of Ukrainian journalists from occupied territories now still in Russian captivity. One of them, Dmytrokheluk, he was was released by Ukrainian authorities around six months ago. All of us were happy because all of us know him for many years and I know that now he's traveling a lot and gave speech for international audience. But many of our colleagues unfortunately still in Russian captivity. And I know that some human rights organizations, Reporter Without Borders sent many, many official requests to Russia and asked them to confirm this information and maybe give permission to visit this journalist in Russian prisons. But it was not successful.

[Adeli Pojo Mponte]

What do you think the international community and the international media misunderstands about the Russian occupation?

[David Knowles]

I guess first of all it's about real Russian goal. Usually a lot of foreign journalists, foreign politicians think that Russia wages this war for territories. And now there are a lot of different conversation, discussions about Donbass, eastern Ukrainian cities. But it's not main goal because Russia 1 is the biggest country in the world. And Russia doesn't need more territories. Russia needs to to destroy Ukraine. They need to erase Ukrainian identity. But they don't need our kilometers.

[Adeli Pojo Mponte]

How difficult is it to verify? What can you use to make sense of the cases that you hear and confirm rumors or confirmed cases?

[David Knowles]

We usually use open Sources and when the full scale invasion started, a lot of Russia Russian soldiers published in their social media a lot of very sensitive information. Location faces of another soldiers, some information about their commanders, their military troops. And it helped us to uncover a lot of war crimes, a lot of alleged war criminals. Now it's more difficult because Russian commanders changed it and some of Russian soldiers closed their social media accounts, deleted some information from social media. Russia cleaned their informational field when it's linked to some war crimes or some high ranking military officials. But at the same time we can find a lot of information online. We usually work with Russian media outlets, usually it's Russian propaganda outlets, but at the same time we can find there are a lot of crucial information for our investigation. I guess my colleague Oleseh Beda, who is investigating crimes against children, told about it because when we were prepared under our investigation about militarization, I guess more than 90% of our findings were in open sources. At the same time I mentioned my investigation documentary about looting or of two Ukrainian museums in Kherson City. In this investigation we used another method. I called to some collaborators and Russian officials under the pretext of Russian journalists. Russian is my first language. I usually explain that Russian is my first but not native language, but of course I can speak fluently. I trained my pronunciation because you know, there is some difference between Ukrainian, Russian and Russian in the Russian Federation. And I was able to obtain a lot of very important information. Eventually we identified some high ranking Russian official who coordinated this operation of of illegal removal items from museums to the territory of Russian Federation. And also we were able to confirm that this looting were supervised by FSB Russian Security service. And to be honest, of course there were some discussions inside our team about some ethical issues when we used this method. But we discussed it with our editor in chief, Olga Rodenko and understood that on the one hand there is high public interest because we are talking about Ukrainian cultural heritage. On the other hand, we realized that for us there was only one chance to obtain this information and we didn't have any ways how to get information from that site.

[Adeli Pojo Mponte]

I imagine it must have been both stressful but also a little bit of fun to impersonate and make these phone calls.

[David Knowles]

Yes, because sometimes it was difficult because we were conducting this investigation when Russia as usual attacked Kyiv by missiles, drones. But for me, sometimes it was found because they trusted me and they shared a lot of very sensitive information about their activities during the occupation of Kherson City. To be honest, we always happy when we can uncover some crimes when we can identify some alleged war criminals because farts, it's very important help deliver justice. And Ukrainian prosecutor's office issued I guess three or four formal suspicions against alleged criminals. Based on our findings on our investigation and as editor, as leader of war crimes investigation unit, I'm proud of my team that we can do it.

[Adeli Pojo Mponte]

What's the best bit of information that you extracted?

[David Knowles]

I guess it's not information, it was a few photos. Because when we tried to obtain any information about this looting of museums,

[Dominic Nichols]

very

[David Knowles]

difficult because we wasn't able to find any details, any proofs in open sources because Russia cleaned everything, any mentions in social media, in Russian propaganda media outlets. But when some collaborator, so called minister of. Of Culture of Kherson region sent me a few photos, when on this photo he and some other person took items like trophies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And trophies. Yeah. And when this so called culture minister and another guy from occupation administrations took some ice items, it was exclusive.

[Adeli Pojo Mponte]

Is there a story of those last four years that has stayed with you? Particularly?

[David Knowles]

Few years ago I investigated torture and inhuman treatment of Ukrainian POWs. There was Olenivka camp in occupied territories. Some methods of torture against Ukrainian soldiers, including women too. And during this investigation I found out that one Ukrainian soldier was tortured to death during so called admission process to the camp. And of course there was high public interest, very important finding. But at the same time I found out that his mother were still in occupied territories and it was risk for her. If we decided to publish this information, we have some discussion inside war crime team. We discussed it with our editor and eventually we decided not to publish this information. We. We passed it to Ukrainian prosecutor's office, we shared it with some human rights defenders because we estimated this balance between public interest and risk for mother of killed Ukrainian soldier. I understand that for us important that woman should be safe.

[Adeli Pojo Mponte]

That must have been a hard decision to make.

[David Knowles]

It's hard because as you know journalists, usually for us it's very important to publish our findings and uncover war crimes. But before the Foolscay invasion I investigated corruption and it was easier for me because when you uncovered some schemes in political field, if you have some information, you. You usually publish it freely. In cases of war crimes it's more complicated because every time we have to estimate some risk, risks for national security for some people in occupied territories, for some people who in the territory under Ukrainian control, but who have relatives in occupied territories. And usually it's very difficult.

[Adeli Pojo Mponte]

I have a last question, which is a question I like to ask almost everyone I interview in Ukraine, so you can answer it however you want. What does justice look like for you?

[David Knowles]

Justice for me. Putin in the prison.

[Adeli Pojo Mponte]

Yevgenia, thank you very much.

[David Knowles]

Thank you too.

[Francis Durnley]

Thanks to Adli and Yevgenia, the Kyiv Independent has been doing incredible work for

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

the last four years. We, like so many of you, rely on them. It doesn't have a paywall or an

[Francis Durnley]

owner and is supported by a community

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

of readers who make their work possible. We're putting a link in the show notes on how to become a member.

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[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

But let's go to our final thoughts now. Dom, what were you up to on Saturday evening?

[Dom (Dominic Nichols)]

Saturday evening? I'd just been to a. A food festival. A couple of very nice pints. No, that was about it. I was just sort of.

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

You weren't watching anything on TV. Not multi million.

[Francis Durnley]

I think 150 million people viewed it.

[Dom (Dominic Nichols)]

Was this your latest podcast? No, I did. I did catch a little bit of Eurovision. I assume that's where you're going.

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

It is. It is. We had to mention it, didn't we? Vitally important in the. In the calendar for those who haven't been listening for as long as we've been broadcasting. The lucky ones. I went to Eurovision when we were hosting it for the Ukrainians in Liverpool. I think it would have been about two years ago. Yeah, I think now maybe three. God, I have to. I have to look at my calendar. It all gets a bit merged. Grew up in a household of mega Eurovision fans, so I'm compelled to do this. And I actually was invited to a dinner party on the Saturday and It

[Francis Durnley]

turns out that myself and others at

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

this party, it's like we are also watching Eurovision, right? Like we're not. We're not just having dinner, like we are watching this. So we actually ended up watching it 90 minutes late and we're speeding it up as we were going through. Now, I know a lot of our American viewers and listeners think, what, what is all this about Eurovision? Just a reminder. The biggest song contest in the world,

[Francis Durnley]

all of the countries and Australia and

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

Israel take part and basically all of them, different countries, they have their own juries that vote and they also have the public vote and it all gets thrown together and then a country wins, basically. It's fantastic. But I mention it because of course we've been monitoring how Ukraine has been received over the years. Ukraine has always done very well since. Since the full scale invasion and they've really taken it very seriously. I think in part as a consequence of that. When we were in Odessa, we actually saw Kalysch Orchestra do their winning song while we were in Odessa last year. This year, Ukraine finished ninth, so pretty respectable. They were on 221 points. Fascinatingly, the Ukrainian jury gave Britain its only point of the competition. So there's the beautiful alliance for you. The Ukrainian people, however, gave us nothing. Now I would actually say that given what we entered this year, they are the true arbiters of good taste. I was devastated to see that Sweden didn't do better. If you're looking for a dance tune to go to the gym to.

[Dom (Dominic Nichols)]

When have you been to the gym and listen to some Swedish. Swedish techno rock.

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

I'm a man of many layers.

[Dom (Dominic Nichols)]

Yeah, okay.

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

Yeah. I tell you what, I love a good cheesy tune.

[Francis Durnley]

I haven't never talked.

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

I've never even talked about this on air. Right. I have a dark DJing past, so I used to be the president of student union and that used to be one of my side gigs. Yeah. Do you wanna know my DJ name was?

[Dom (Dominic Nichols)]

No. Go on. Yeah, go on.

[Tommy (possibly Tommy Walker)]

DJ Basic. Because I only played the classics and I had a poster and it was of a classic classical statue wearing headphones. Only the classics get it? That's all we've got time for today, everybody. Thanks very much for joining us. We'll be back same time, same place tomorrow.

[Dom (Dominic Nichols)]

Didn't answer the gym question.

[Francis Durnley]

Ukraine. The latest is an original podcast from the Telegraph created by David Knowles. Every episode featuring us in the studio maps and battlefield footage is now available to watch on our YouTube channel. You can subscribe at www.YouTube.com crane the latest. There's a link link in the description. If you appreciate our work, please consider following Ukraine the latest on your preferred podcast app and leave us a review as it helps others find the show. Please also share it with those who may not be aware we exist. You can also get in touch directly to ask questions or give comments by emailing ukrainepodelegraph.co.uk we continue to read every message even if we can't reply to all of them. You can also contact us on X. You'll find our handles in the description. As ever, we're especially interested to hear where you're listening from around the world. And finally, to support our work and stay on top of all of our Ukraine news, analysis and dispatches from the ground. Please subscribe to the Telegraph. You can get one month for free, then two months for just one pound at www.telegraph.co.uk Ukraine Ukraine the latest Ukraine the latest was today, produced by Phil Atkins in audio and Sophie O' Sullivan in video. The executive editor is me, Francis Dernley. The series creator is David Knowles.

[David Knowles]

My name is David Knowles.

[Dom (Dominic Nichols)]

Thank you all for listening.

[David Knowles]

Goodbye.

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