← Ukraine: The Latest
Ukraine: The Latest
Trump says Zelensky ‘started’ the war & British troops 'ready to fight' on Ukraine border
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David Knowles
The telegraph.
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Andreas Flodstrom
ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
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Podcast Advertiser/Host
Leadership used to mean having all the answers, but today's best leaders embody a more human approach.
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Tom Mutch
I'm Jack Myers.
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David Knowles
And I'm Tim Spengler.
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Andreas Flodstrom
Tim and I have spent our careers inside media marketing and culture and we.
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Podcast Advertiser/Host
Partnered with the ACAST Creators Network to start Lead Human to answer one simple question. What does it really look like to lead in this AI dominated world? The biggest tip for being a creator?
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David Knowles
It's a job.
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Andreas Flodstrom
What I learned from Michael Jackson, Here's.
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Tom Mutch
A man who understands precision.
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Andreas Flodstrom
It's about answering the questions that are.
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Tom Mutch
Hard, not about answering a bunch of teed up questions that are fake.
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Podcast Advertiser/Host
What we're looking for are real stories and practical advice that you can use.
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Tom Mutch
With your teams right away.
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Andreas Flodstrom
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- [01:11]
Tom Mutch
Acast.com.
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David Knowles
I'm Francis Dernley and this is Ukraine. The latest Today we look at the fallout from the first talks between the US and Russia. Consider the next emergency summit taking place in Paris with European powers and look at one of Ukraine's less talked about sectors and its vital importance in this war.
- [01:37]
Ukrainian Defense Expert
Braemarine takes you through the most unimaginable hardships to finally reward you with victory.
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Andreas Flodstrom
It's the worst carnage that this world has seen since World War II.
- [01:51]
David Knowles
Absolutely fascinating.
- [01:52]
Tom Mutch
We are with you not just today or tomorrow, but for a hundred years.
- [02:02]
David Knowles
Nobody's going to break us.
- [02:04]
Tom Mutch
We are strong.
- [02:05]
David Knowles
We are Ukrainians. It's Wednesday the 19th of February, two years and 355 days since the full scale invasion began. And today I'm joined by freelance war correspondent Tom Mutch, technology expert Andreas Longstrom and later our defence editor Danielle Sheridan. On the ground with British troops conducting a NATO exercise, hearing their reaction to reports they could soon be deployed to Ukraine. But first, over to the military and political updates of the past 24 hours. Russian attacks against Ukraine killed two and injured 26 civilians over the past day. Regional authorities reported last night with at least 176 drones from the Russian cities of Orel, Bryansk, Kursk, Shatilovo, Mirorovo and Russian occupied Crimea launched according to Ukraine's air force. That air force claims it shot down 103 drones over Kharkiv, Sumy, Poltava, Dnepropetrovsk, Chernihiv, Kherson, Mykolaev and Kyiv oblasts, among others. Another 67 drones disappeared from radars without causing any damage. According to that statement, drones that disappear from radars before reaching their targets are usually decoys which Moscow sends alongside real drones to try and overwhelm Ukraine's air defence. In Donetsk oblast, one person was killed and another was injured in the city of Pokrovsk, its governor reported. In Zaporoizhzhia Oblast, an 80 year old man was killed in an artillery attack against the town of Orikhiv. His body was pulled from the rubble. But it's not all one way. Last night, Ukrainian UAVs attacked an oil refinery in Kheisan, located 1,000 kilometers from the Ukrainian border, which processes 8.9 million tons of oil annually. Local authorities insist the refinery sustained no damage, but videos show a fire breaking out and continuing into this morning. There are also reports, which we analyze in detail on our website today, that Ukraine has destroyed an extreme long range North Korean artillery weapon in the eastern region of Luhansk. Elsewhere, across the front lines, attacks continued, but with no significant movements for either side. Meanwhile, the political battles in Europe are ongoing, with France planning to hold a second emergency meeting on Ukraine and European security today, including those European countries not present an earlier meeting this week. NATO ally Canada will be there. Norway, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, the Czech Republic, Greece, Finland, Romania, Sweden and Belgium were all invited, according to Reuters. Meanwhile, we're now getting the readouts from the peace talks between the US and Russia in Saudi Arabia, the first wave of which finished yesterday. After that summit, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said it was unacceptable for any foreign troops to conduct peacekeeping missions in Ukraine after the war concludes. He said, and I quote, the presence of troops from NATO countries, whether under foreign flags, EU flags or or their own national flags, does not change anything. Nonetheless, Europe does seem to be undeterred and is discussing all sorts of solutions which would see boots on the ground or in the air to try and deter Russia. Britain is prepared to send Typhoon fighter jets to police the skies over Ukraine to help secure peace. It's been reported further to Keir Starmer's pledge that he would be willing to put British troops on the ground. As Joe Barnes writes in our paper today, the Joint Expeditionary Forces, that's Jeff to you and me, the coalition of 10 Northern European NATO nations could provide the avenue to making such a force possible. Just as a reminder, Geoff comprises Britain, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Denmark, Iceland and the Netherlands. The majority of those political leaders have tentatively signaled a willingness to send troops in some form. As Joe argues Some argue that by teaming up with France, the Geff nations could in theory muster a fresh expeditionary force of between 40 to 50,000 troops that could be used to deliver Paris's concept of a reassurance mission. A large contingent of that would have to be British, however, and as Matthew Saville, the director of military sciences at the Royal United Services Institute here in London, has put it, 15,000 to 20,000 men is more personnel than the UK simultaneously deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. At any one point, those deployments stretched an army that was more than 30,000 personnel larger even when supported by the Marines. That speaks to just how large such a commitment could potentially be for those willing powers, something of course we've discussed many times in previous episodes. Later, you'll hear from the Telegraph's defence editor Danielle Sheridan, who's been with NATO troops for Exercise Steadfast Dart in eastern Romania. She sends this snippet as a trailer for From Muddy Trenches. British army soldiers told me if the call comes from the PM to go to Ukraine, they are ready, prepared and capable. Something about that I find rather moving. Now, beyond that discussion, the EU is hard at work discussing a military aid package for Ukraine worth at least 6 billion euros to bolster Kyiv's strategic position ahead of the U. S led talks with Russia. That's coming from Politico, citing sources familiar with the matter. The package is expected to include 1.5 million artillery shells, air defence systems and equipment for military brigades. Also, EU diplomats have imposed a fresh round of sanctions against Russia, the bloc's 16th package sanctions that will target Russia's aluminium industry, oil exports and individuals and companies deemed to be fuelling Russia's war against Ukraine. They will hit 13 more banks and 73 more shadow fleet tankers used by Moscow to export crude oil. Yet at the same time, to return to those talks in Saudi Arabia, the US Secretary of State Marco Rubio concluded yesterday by saying that the US Is ready to lift sanctions on Russia if a deal is struck. It's just worth reflecting on what a shift this is. Many in the west argued that sanctions on Russia should endure even after the end of the war in order to contain it. But Rubio went even further, saying America needs to take advantage of the incredible opportunity to partner with the Russians geopolitically on issues of common interest and economically. Now that comes after Donald Trump appeared to blame the war on Ukraine yesterday, saying, quote, a half baked negotiator could have settled this years ago without the loss of much land, without the loss of any lives and without the loss of cities that are just laying on their sides. He said Zelenskyy should have done a deal. When challenged on that by a journalist, he replied bluntly, russia fought for that land in Ukraine and lost a lot of soldiers doing it, so Russia should keep it. One can imagine the anger this morning from many to those remarks. Sean Pinner, the former soldier of the British army who joined the Ukrainian armed forces as a contracted fighter in 20 we interviewed him on the podcast about his experiences of Russian torture some months ago, wrote on x I was electrocuted, beaten, stabbed in the leg and starved after being captured while defending my home and family in Maliupol. We held back the Putin invasion for several weeks while Russia slaughtered over 25,000 predominantly Russian speaking Ukrainians, including women and children. Oleksiy Khonkhorenko, a Ukrainian MP, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme the Mr. Trump's remarks were not pleasant to hear, adding, we're being killed here every day. We're dying here every day. Trump also wrongly claims Zelenskyy has just a 4% approval rating. It's actually 52%, 10% ahead of Trump's. The events of the past week or so have led to something of a rallying in support for the Ukrainian president among its citizens, with polls increasingly seeing an uptick in support. As one Ukrainian soldier put it on X, even the most anti Zelenskyy people in Ukraine are supporting him as president of Ukraine right now. Meanwhile, Trump's special envoy for Ukraine, Keith Kellogg, arrived in Kyiv today for talks with Zelenskyy. On Monday, the US envoy vowed that no one would impose a peace deal on an elected leader of a sovereign state. But many are asking now whether Kellogg has any power over this process at all. Zelenskyy was due to be in Saudi Arabia, perhaps to put pressure on the government there, who allegedly were in favor of him being present at the talks that took place. But given the developments of Monday and Tuesday, he announced last night that he was postponing his visit to Saudi Arabia amid talks between Russia and the U.S. but it's not all going Russia's way. In a move that caught many by surprise last night, President Erdogan of Turkey, a country which has traditionally seen itself as a broker between the two sides, reiterated the Turks back Ukraine's full territorial integrity. Just bear in mind that Turkey controls the Black Sea and NATO's southern flank. It's an interesting intervention and one we will of course be returning to in due course. Now another is the growing outrage among important figures relating to non European Western countries. Trump is living in a fantasy land if he believes Ukraine started the war with Russia. Those are the words of the former Prime Minister of Australia, Tony Abbott. He went on, now, obviously we want peace, but it can't just be a surrender to a vicious naked aggression. It just can't be the basis for peace. Has got to be that Ukraine can live in independence and security going forward. Otherwise, effectively, this isn't a ceasefire, it's a sellout. This isn't peace. It's a surrender. And it's a surrender to a vicious dictator. That tallies, too, with a blunt statement by Matthew Allan Miller, who served as a spokesperson for the U.S. department of State from 2023 to 2025. He said, simply negotiating an end to a war is easy if your plan is to surrender. That will remind many of you, I'm sure, of the famous quote from Churchill. You were given the choice between war and dishonour. You chose dishonor, and you will have war. Now, I mentioned the presence of Canada in the talks a moment ago, and of course, you just heard the remarks by the Australian Prime Minister in yesterday's Final Thought. I spoke about the concern in those countries and in New Zealand about the developments of the past week or so. And it's interesting to see the Financial Times report today that Chinese warships are sailing within 150 nautical miles of Sydney, the closest its navy has sailed to its east coast. Fascinating timing. They started that about a week ago, just as we heard those remarks or revelations indeed, that Trump had spoken to Putin. So to discuss this, it's great to have freelance journalist and New Zealander Tom Much back on the podcast today, not on the front lines in Ukraine this time, but just back from the Munich security conference. Tom, welcome back. You actually raised the concerns of those countries. I just mentioned to President Zelenskyy himself at the summit. Let's hear that. Now.
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Tom Mutch
I'm from New Zealand. We're a very small country. We're very far away and a lot of people there. That's the point. Everyone says, why should we care about Ukraine? It's very sad what's happening there, but it is of no relevance to us. Why is the Ukraine war relevant to people not just in my country, but other small countries very far away from the world?
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Ukrainian Defense Expert
What can I say for double? You know, I had a lot of connections with Australian leaders and New Zealand and just we spoke about it. What everybody understands, for example, the element of North Korea, which been involved to this war by Russians. Is it dangerous for us or for your country? I Don't know for whom is more dangerous because that what we see the North Korea, they learned a lot of, a lot of knowledge and they have a big experience how to use missiles, long distance drones, electronic warfare, modern electronic warfare, another world. And they brought already this knowledge to by their offices, by the way home. And they will use it or will try to use it in, in their interests. And I think also it can be in, in the region which is very close to you. And I think that really yes you can be happy because you don't have this land, big land war because you are not neighbors with Russians and etc but, but really the world doesn't have the distance when we speak about the missiles, when they speak about with drones, it's about thousands of kilometers. And I think that if the most important, you know the dangerous guys in your region and I think that you understand that if Russia will win another guy will try to do something in your origin. I think so. And this is very important to show that there is a, the law, there is the values and we have to defend values in any country, in any small country. First of all, in any small country there are countries that will, that can't fight and they, God bless, they will not fight. And that's why we have to defend the interests of all the countries not depending on their territory, soldiers, big or small army or there are countries without army. We have to defend people like.
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Tom Mutch
He then went on to talk about the potential of other conflicts in your region that could involve your countries. Now my educated guess is he was probably talking about the possibility of Chinese aggression in the Pacific, perhaps towards Taiwan or more broadly he just didn't want to name the Chinese as he sees them as a potential partner that could put some pressure on the Russians to make a peace. I actually think if it's a slight diversion. But when you were talking about Turkey earlier and China is here as well. China and Turkey have traditionally had their own rivalries with Russia an extraordinarily overconfident victorious Russia is not necessarily in Chinese or Turkish interests, in fact far from it. So there is that to me. I'm actually going to also take a small point to go back to the defense innovation. I think there's something very interesting over the last day or two, I've been at a conference in Kiev. It's a drone and sort of defense technology innovation conference. And it's fascinating because all of these people from all across Ukraine are showing off the sort of civilian and military technologies and how they're coming together. There's all this amazing innovation, whether it's new types of drone jammers, whereas where it's, whether it's unmanned ground vehicles that can sort of go into the front line and deliver supplies and take wounded troops back. And one of the messages they're trying to send with this, and of course then there's a bomber, drones and UAVs that we all know a bit more about. But the message they're trying to send is now Ukraine actually has a very good homegrown defense industry. It needs more investment, it needs more raw materials, but they really do have the capacity to produce a lot, despite the fact that they're getting bombed by Russia all the time. And the message there I think is, look, even in the worst case scenario where US Military aid is cut off, Ukrainians are no longer in a position where they're totally reliant on it. They can fend and fight for themselves. Not only can they fend and fight for themselves now, but I think people sometimes forget they did that in the past. They fought against the Russian aggression in 2014 in Donbass. That was done pretty much entirely by Ukrainians in 2022 when the Russians attacked into Kyiv. Actually it was the Ukrainian army working without very much Western support or equipment at that time over those first two months that pushed the Russians back from Ky, back from Kharkiv and back from those other places. Major Western aid didn't really arrive until about May or June or so. So the Ukrainians have fought alone before and they want to say if the Trump administration and Putin try to push a really unfavourable peace deal on them, they can keep fighting again.
- [19:24]
David Knowles
Thanks very much, Tom, for that. I just wonder the question about New Zealand, Canada, Australia at the moment, and their positions since the changes in the Trump position. I wonder if you can speak just a little bit more to that. I mean, I'm not you to summarize all of the responses, of course, but I mean, you're from New Zealand, as you say, and I wonder what's been the reaction there in other places that to this just enormous seismic shift that's taken place.
- [19:50]
Tom Mutch
So here's the thing. I think a lot of people are realizing now that the US has become not necessarily an adversary, but an entirely unpredictable actor. The US Is no longer someone you can trust your trading relationships with. It's no longer someone you can trust potentially with your intelligence services. So actually, one of the things that New Zealand, Australia and Canada are very worried about is they are all part of the five eyes intelligence sharing networks, and there are people in these countries who are worried. Do we really want to be sharing all our intelligence with the Trump administration? The Trump administration, you know, people, for instance, don't necessarily trust Tulsi Gabbard, the new Director of National Intelligence. They don't see her as someone who necessarily has the interests of Canada, Australia, New Zealand in mind. So that's a very big concern, particularly within our intelligence community. And I suspect that this is going to be a real issue further down the line, but those might be effects that take a few months to filter through.
- [20:56]
David Knowles
Now, you were at Munich, Tom. I wonder if you could just give our listeners a sense of the mood from your perspective. We've heard from James Rothwell, who was there earlier in the week, but your sense of the mood, and I know that you saw Kellogg speaking to some officials as well.
- [21:08]
Tom Mutch
Yes, so I was there with James at the conference. He's a good friend of mine. And what I remember is that, look, the mood generally in Munich was kind of shock and despair. It was shock. I can't believe this is happening. I couldn't help thinking to myself, well, you've had three years of warnings because. And I think Trump has done some terrible things here, but to give to the devil what belongs to the devil. He never pretended to care about Ukraine. He never said he was interested in a Ukrainian victory. He always said that he had sympathy for the Russian positions. So I couldn't help thinking, why did people not realise and get prepared for this eventuality? Over the last three years, you've had plenty of warning. Now, I did run into. So Kellogg was giving a side event where he was talking and there were a number of European diplomats at this talk. I remember, for instance, and I'm going to butcher his name here, Gabrielis Landsbergus, I think the recently retired Lithuanian foreign minister, the Polish foreign minister, I believe, was there as well. And he was trying to say, look, I care about Ukraine. I believe President Trump cares about Ukraine. He said, for instance, look, remember when there was that fight between the Americans and the Russians in Syria? President Trump gave the order to have them killed. He also said, you know, Russia didn't occupy any more Ukrainian land from 2016 to 2020. He said the two big land grabs, the one in 2014 and the one in 2022, they occurred under President Obama and then Biden. So I think the thing is, I actually feel somewhat sorry for Kellogg because I believe he's a true believer, both in Trump and in Ukraine. And I think a lot of people, not just in Ukraine, but in the west breathed a bit of a sigh of relief when people like Kellogg Waltz, Marco Rubio were selected for high profile national security positions. They thought, okay, maybe Trump could be someone who can be convinced to listen to the Ukrainian point of view. But now that President Putin has come and, you know, and seemed to have had this 90 minute phone conversation with Trump and somehow convinced them all to his convinced Trump that, you know, the Russians are in the right here, it seems like all of those people have been somewhat demot voted and they're not really being listened to anymore. So I actually genuinely think that Kellogg is probably a decent man who has Ukraine's interests at heart. But I don't think he has the presidency here at the moment. And I don't think people in Ukraine are necessarily welcoming his visit just because they can't necessarily think that he has the power to, to get a fair or a just peace agreement for Ukraine through to Trump.
- [23:52]
David Knowles
Well, thank you very much, Tom. I wonder if you've got any thoughts just before I wrap up on this question of Ukrainian support for Zelensky and indeed the prospect of elections further down the road.
- [24:04]
Tom Mutch
Yes, so that's a very interesting one. As you rightly pointed out, people are starting to get a bit behind Zelensky because they see that he's being bullied by Trump. But I think they're also quite pleased that, you know, when the Americans came to them with this extortionate agreement over them mineral reserves, he said no. He said this at the where when at the meeting I was at, he said no, it's just not now the interests of a sovereign Ukraine. And I'm not going to accept it, you know, not in an angry or aggressive way. Just it's not in our interests. And actually when we talk about the defense innovation that Ukraine has, remember that all links together, it's this kind of thing is what gives Zelensky the power to say no. So I think people are impressed that he was standing up to Trump. I think they think he's conveying the message of Ukraine quite well. But I want to point out something about what Ukraine, about what Trump said about Zelensky having 4% support in Ukraine. I thought that was an extraordinary statement. And I couldn't help thinking that that probably came from the Kremlin itself. And there's all this talk from the Kremlin and Trump about possible, you know, they're apparently pushing for new Ukrainian elections. But then something really struck me. I thought Putin has probably said this and Putin probably believes it. He Remember at the start of the war, Putin invaded Ukraine because he thought his troops would be welcomed with flowers. He thought the government was unpopular. He thought it was a, you know, a Nazi regime that had taken over in a coup and that the Ukrainian people were just, you know, secretly Russians looking to rise up against and they, their oppressors, and they welcome the Russian soldiers with open arms. I can't help thinking that a part of him still believes that. I think that he genuinely thinks that if the country goes to elections, it would elect a pro Russian president. It's like he's learned absolutely nothing from the events of the last three years. He has no idea still how much people in Ukraine despise him and despise the Russians after all of the murder and torture and rape and just everyone knows about the crimes they've committed. But, no, I think he still thinks, oh, she still loves me. She still loves me deep down inside. And the Ukrainian people would vote for someone aligned with him, which I thought is just rather extraordinary.
- [26:31]
David Knowles
Well, thank you very much, Tom. Now, in yesterday's episode, we were discussing whether hybrid warfare, such as acts of cyber warfare, could ever trigger NATO's Article 5, and indeed, the experience of various countries on the digital front line. Well, when I was in Sweden a couple of weeks ago, I bumped into listeners to the podcast Andreas Flodstrom, who joins us today to discuss one of Ukraine's lesser known success stories, it's IT and tech industry. Andreas, thank you very much for your time. I know you've had a sleepless night thanks to the bombardments on Kyiv. But first of all, perhaps you could just briefly summarize your expertise and your connection with Ukraine, and then start by talking about the ways in which Ukraine's IT sector has been so important in this war and the way in which it's developing.
- [27:18]
Andreas Flodstrom
Thank you for having me. And thanks for the excellent work you're doing on reporting on Ukraine. Yeah. My name is Andreas. I'm founder of a company called Beetroot, a Swedish Ukrainian tech company that was founded 2012 basically by us moving down to Ukraine and setting things up. So we've been working with this industry. We're around 300 engineers in here, working with many different industries in different countries, including defense tech as of the last two years. And we also run something called Beetroot Academy, where we have taught around 14,000 Ukrainians into tech professions. So I've been on the ground for a long time. I've been part of this very developing industry. So when, I mean, through the years that I'VE been here since 2012. The average growth rate of the Ukrainian industry has been around 20% some years, up to 40, 45%. So we are talking here about one of the strongest tech industries in Europe, exporting. I mean, it's been largely driven historically by outsourcing industry. So basically you will find more than half of the Fortune 500 companies having worked with Ukrainian engineers at some point in time, but also dynamic and growing sort of homegrown product company industry that's especially in the last five, six, seven years, has been growing very dynamically. What's happening in the last three years since the start of full scale war, is that a lot of the innovational power of this industry of more than 300,000 people has obviously turned towards the defense tech in different ways. I mean, everyone in the Ukrainian society is trying to do what they can with what they have. And this is very much a high tech war. I think it's the first high tech war on this scale in the world. First war, like sort of drone war. And also it comes in a very interesting historical time as you also have the AI revolution happening at the same time. So what we see is a very, very dynamic industry. I would call this sort of the innovation hub for defense tech probably, if not the leading, at least one of the leading in the world. And yeah, we see a lot of different use cases obviously. Right. But I think to start with, without going into specific use cases, I think the interesting things, one of the interesting things is how fast things are moving. So something that can be a revolutionary thing on the front line now can be actually quite useless just three to six months later. So we are seeing a race for innovation and obviously the enemy is also in that race. The question is, I think, is Europe and the west and the NATO countries, are we in this race? It's something I ask myself because what I see here is almost like grassroots driven race for innovation. You have all these engineers, like starting from someone in a garage who knows someone on the front line, finding a need, testing something, software, hardware, going to the front line, sending it to the front line, getting feedback, going back to the garage. So we are talking about feedback like loops of days and weeks rather than months and years. And I think with Ukraine is one of the important things here, what Ukraine is working on, achieving and doing so quite successfully is asymmetrical warfare. I mean, it comes both to cost asymmetry and then how you use. So basically if you have Russia, a Russian tank doesn't care if a drone that cost a thousand Times less that that takes it out if it is native certified or not. And I, and I think what is interesting also is that you have, of course, you have the support from the state level, but most of the innovation or the initiation of the innovation comes from actually from the private sector or private initiatives. And then it's sort of integrated into the, the armed forces. What are we talking about? We're talking about obviously a lot of drones, both air, naval and land drones. We are talking about electronic warfare. We are talking about a lot of use of AI. And I think in the coming months we will see a lot of new development here. And I mean, the Ukrainian capacity as of today is to produce around 4 million drones per year, which is, I think, higher than any other country or not even closer to what our Western countries are having in capacity. And what all of this brings us to is I think that now when we have the diplomatic situation, when we don't know if we can trust our big ally, the United States, I believe that the absolute most efficient way to support Ukraine and thereby supporting ourselves is to invest directly into the Ukrainian defense innovation system. And I mean, the cost efficiency of that compared to any other thing, and we should do all the different things, of course, is absolutely stunning, I would say. And I think, I mean, we talk about a lot about defense spending and we do need to increase it, but, but I think increasing it by itself, even if we increase our GDP spending on defense to 5%, if we don't change. I'm talking now about European Union and Europe basically. Right. If we don't change the way we do innovation in defense, I think we are still going to be in a difficult spot.
- [33:03]
David Knowles
Thank you. And I wonder if you can talk a little bit. You mentioned AI there, and this was something that came up in our conversation yesterday with our guests about the ways in which hybrid warfare is expanding and the potentials of AI to be even more disruptive. Can you talk a little bit more granularly about how AI could be harnessed in a way that would be extremely damaging by hybrid operators and why Ukraine in some ways is at the cutting edge of that and it's just not really being talked about perhaps as prominently as it should be?
- [33:33]
Andreas Flodstrom
I mean, of course, AI is in any, in any innovational space right now. AI is one of the driving forces. And if to come from a sort of helicopter perspective, Ukraine had around like 5,000 AI engineers already before the war. And of course a lot of people are upskilling and reskilling and so on. So it's also about sort of an educational effort where for example, Peter Academy is one of the players in this. But to put simple terms, of course you have the potential of swarming or sort of self autonomous driven drones both on the land and the air. But it's also a lot in the sort of data space of things like how you use all the data you get from the frontline. Almost. Not almost, but in a sort of live stream format. So those are some of the aspects I will mention.
- [34:23]
David Knowles
Interesting. Thank you. And there was one element of this that I think was interesting that you were talking about before when we met in Sweden, which is the way in which the IT sector can operate more effectively in a wartime situation than many other industries. Can you just talk a little bit more detail about why that's the case?
- [34:42]
Andreas Flodstrom
Yeah, it's super interesting. And of course, I mean we have the, in a way the use of the COVID time when we learned to work on remote and all of that. But as long as, I mean as long as we have Internet and electricity and I mean any. Ukraine has around 5,000 IT companies. I would say every of those at this point, they have generators, they have starlinks and you can work from anywhere. So you can even set up the starlink in the, in the village somewhere and sit there and work. So the effect of that is that we. The IT sector has been much less impacted than any other. So I would say that there is really no operational challenge for the IT sector. I think it's still been two tough, three tough years for the sector. But that's more related to demand. That sort of big international companies assume that working with Ukraine is a big risk while actually the Ukrainian companies are delivering at absolutely every level. Yeah, so I think, I mean the IT industry is, I think it's around 5% of the Ukrainian GDP and it really is the biggest service export sector while only being 1.7% or something of the workforce. So of course like getting more people into the IT industry has a very big effect on the economy as well. But also the sort of working in the IT sector means working in a global setting. So it impacts not only your sort of personal economy and the national economy, but it also impacts the sort of mindset of working in a global, global context. I think what is also has had a very, very big impact or actually work that has been done before the full scale war and continued. So we have. Ukraine is actually very, very far forward when it comes to governmental digitalization, you could call it. So we have this via app that where you can basically as a private person, any interaction you have with the state more or less can be done through this one application. And this is extremely important when you have people on the front line, you have 7 million refugees spread out over Europe and the world. And just the fact that this works is extremely important for a functional society and state operators. And I would actually argue, I mean, when I moved to Ukraine in 2012, it was kind of very challenging, often bureaucratically to run a business, even to be a private person is, you know, running a around for stamps and so on. While now I would say that my interaction with the Ukrainian state as a private person and also as a company is actually easier than it is in Sweden at this point because you have this very, very smooth centralized system where you have sort of everything from your tax code to your car certificate to your Covid certificate to your send money to the army of drones or whatever it might be. And I mean Ukraine has also sort of taken some legislative steps. I think we are the first country where a digital passport is actually having an equal legal status as a physical one. And yeah, examples like that.
- [37:52]
David Knowles
It's interesting, it reminds me of when I was working for an MP in Parliament here many years ago. He took me to a warehouse where it just was all of the paper files of the National Health Service, all of the patients, everything. And it was a pretty daunting site. And you compare that with the digitization that's taken place in Ukraine, that's taken place in Estonia and other European countries, and it makes you realize how far ahead certain countries are opposed in contrast to others. But my final question to you is about the best and worst case scenarios for this sector. If there were a lasting peace that was secured, what would be the opportunities for that sector? What would be the positive outcomes, do you think? And in the very worst case scenarios of you? Well, you can imagine the worst case scenarios, but what would that mean for its sector?
- [38:47]
Andreas Flodstrom
Well, I mean, I think if a sustainable, lasting peace. I don't think we are so close to it yet, unfortunately. But let's assume, I mean, I think that of course, I mean the Ukrainian sector will, the sector will continue to grow and it will continue to sort of spread out in different industries. And I think it's, it's one of the, it's obviously one of the key competitiveness factors, especially now when we have the demographical challenges that we need basically to be more efficient and the IT tools are used for that. And so I mean I, the IT sector as a whole, I Think it will have a beautiful future. It's been very, it's a very, very dynamic industry also. Now, if we talk about more pessimistic scenarios or actually in any of scenarios, I think that this defense innovation system will continue to thrive because this is already a ball that has started to roll and spreading it, spreading its impact. And interesting when I look at sort of what's going on in Europe and in my own country and so on, I mean, we are really, of course, also trying to step up. But at this point, when I look at the innovation happening here and the speed of innovation and the comparison of that, my time of conclusion is that, I mean, of course Ukraine is dependent on Ukraine to step on Europe to step out its support, but I actually think that equally or not, maybe even more like Europe at this point, I think is actually dependent on Ukraine to be able to defend itself, because Ukraine is the only country of our allies that has the experience of, of modern warfare. You have an army of a million people. You have actually hundreds of thousands of people working in the defense industry and sort of scaling this. And it's changing like weeks by weeks with innovations that are coming out. So I think my message to Europe is like, we are actually dependent on Ukraine at this point for our safety. So let's do whatever we can to strengthen Ukraine, to learn from Ukraine in the digital sector, because there is a lot to learn there, basically.
- [40:57]
David Knowles
Thank you. Yes. And one can imagine what it would mean if that sector was in the hands of the Russians.
- [41:06]
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- [41:36]
David Knowles
Hey, listeners.
- [41:37]
Andreas Flodstrom
Meet Russell.
- [41:38]
Lieutenant Cameron Price
Hey.
- [41:38]
Podcast Advertiser/Host
Russell just launched a fitness app and he needed to get the word out.
- [41:42]
David Knowles
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- [41:44]
Podcast Advertiser/Host
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- [41:48]
Andreas Flodstrom
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- [41:50]
Tom Mutch
Booking sponsorships through their platform was a breeze.
- [41:53]
Podcast Advertiser/Host
And just like that, my app was in their ears during their morning run. Sounds like a smart move, Russell.
- [41:59]
Andreas Flodstrom
How's business looking now?
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- [42:19]
David Knowles
Well, let's go to our final thoughts now. Just a quick one from me at the top. We want to learn more about our listeners at this historic moment in time, where you're from, what you value, how you might be able to contribute to the podcast. So there will be a survey in the show notes of today's podcast episode, which will take five minutes, minutes to complete. It would be a real help to us. Thank you very much in advance to those who do so. As I say, there'll be a link in the show notes. But first of all, over to you, Andreas, for your thoughts.
- [42:48]
Andreas Flodstrom
Well, I would maybe try to summarize what both me and Thomas has been saying here. I think so. I think that if we invest directly, and when I say we, I mean the Europeans, if we invest directly into Ukrainian defense innovation, so not only scaling up of production that is needed too, but directly into the Ukrainian defense innovation, working with cost, asymmetries, speed of innovation, and also learn from the Ukrainians in this innovation process and sort of put our brains and efforts together. I kind of, I mean, I'm an optimist, but I kind of think that we then can stand up, up against Russia together with or without the United States. But then Europe really needs to pick up and we really need to realize that at this point, I think Europe is equally dependent towards Ukraine as the other way around security guarantees should be both ways. Europe needs the Ukrainian defense industry and the Ukrainian army army to be able to fight a war against Russia if we get to that point. Those are my final thoughts.
- [44:04]
David Knowles
Thank you, Andreas. Thank you. And yes, you're right. I mean, of course we're talking about the tens of thousands of Western troops potentially deployed. When you compare that with the fact that Ukraine has hundreds of thousands of soldiers currently in its armed forces, it's a total difference in scale. And so I think you're absolutely right to emphasize that point.
- [44:22]
Podcast Advertiser/Host
Point.
- [44:22]
David Knowles
Tom, where do you want to leave our listeners?
- [44:25]
Tom Mutch
Well, first I want to agree entirely with what Andreas was saying about how Europe is not just, you know, Ukraine is not just going to become reliant on Europe, Europe is going to become reliant on Ukraine because if they, if we face a joint threat from Russia, then the Ukrainians are the only ones with really the experience on the ground of what it's like to fight the Russians. Now I remember about two years ago I was in the UK And I was at a training camp and where British and actually New Zealand troops were training Ukrainian soldiers. And they said to me Look, a lot of these guys have better battlefield experience than we, the trainers do because, you know, we were in Iraq and Afghanistan, but we had air support, we had, you know, an overwhelming firepower advantage. They didn't have, have real artillery. The stuff these guys are facing, we can't really prepare them for. They are more likely to prepare it for us. We've got a lot to learn from them, not just them from us. And I think it's important to remember and this is why Ukraine's survival is so much in the European interest. Back in 1938, when we're talking about Czechoslovakia, this is not an original point to me, by the way, I believe, believe it's Professor Timothy Snyder who's made it, is that Czechoslovakia had one of the best military and armaments industries in the world. Ukraine currently now has one of the best armaments and military innovation industries in the world. If the Russians take it over, they will be able to use it against Europe and they will have a really, really powerful, unstoppable army that similar to what the Wehrmacht had when they were able to take over Czechoslovakia and absorb all of that technical know how and industrial production capacity. So I think, and I really hope European leaders have finally woken up many, many, many, many years too late, but that they've finally woken up now to the fact that this is not just existential for Ukraine, this is existential for them as well. And I think as journalists this is, I think the point we need to emphasize the most. It's not just a war in Ukraine. The Ukrainians are stopping it at their gates right now. But if Ukraine falls, this war is going to spread and it's only a matter of time.
- [46:52]
David Knowles
Our colleague Danielle Sheridan is currently in Romania. She's been attending NATO's Exercise Steadfast Dart where British troops are training Romanian forces on trench warfare. Their presence on Romania's border with Moldova and Ukraine is a clear message to Russia. We are ready. Danielle has been interviewing soldiers and Commanders from the 4th Battalion of the Royal Regiment of Scotland, nicknamed 4 Scots. Here are a few clips from Romania.
- [47:23]
Danielle Sheridan
I'm at a training camp in Galati, which is around four hours training arrive from Bucharest and what you can hear in the distance is the sound of gunfire and grenades going off as Romanians and British troops fight each other. They're acting out, assaulting a trench somewhere between minus 5 and minus 8 degrees plus wind chill. It's really cold, there's snow and ice everywhere. That is a fair representation of what it's like to be in a trench in Ukraine at the moment, the Romanians work really closely with the Ukrainians, as I've been told, and therefore it's key for British troops to be training with them because it means that they're able to share tactics. The Romanians are being taught about firsthand from the Ukrainians and therefore intel can be shared between the two forces.
- [48:28]
Andreas Flodstrom
Jamie Graham.
- [48:29]
Tom Mutch
I'm a major and I'm OC Delta Company for Scots.
- [48:32]
Danielle Sheridan
So how big is this?
- [48:34]
Tom Mutch
So this is a company defensive position, but the frontage is about 270 meters.
- [48:40]
Andreas Flodstrom
About 100 meters of depth.
- [48:41]
Danielle Sheridan
How deep is this?
- [48:43]
Tom Mutch
4 foot. Some places it goes up, up to about 5, some places it drops a bit.
- [48:47]
Danielle Sheridan
And why is it so important to.
- [48:49]
Tom Mutch
Do this trench training? Yeah, well, I think the war in Ukraine shows that trenches haven't gone away in the 21st century. Trenches are, they're really complicated battle space in a really small area. So you can do really, really thorough training, testing everybody individual skill level, commanders at the junior level through to commanders at the senior level can be tested without having to use up a huge amount of ground.
- [49:11]
Company Sergeant Major Buntime
Yeah. So I'm Company Sergeant Major Buntime from Delta Company. 4 Scots. For me it's the first time I've ever deployed as a division in 20 years in the army, so I think it's quite good. The biggest selling point for me as a company start Major is moving my company alongside my battalion all the way from North Yorkshire to Smartan and Romania as a full complete unit, along with all our kit and equipment.
- [49:36]
Danielle Sheridan
How long did it take?
- [49:37]
Company Sergeant Major Buntime
Take four days. So it's good especially for the young jocks, the young private soldiers within the company, they see that we are part of NATO.
- [49:45]
Lieutenant Cameron Price
I'm Lieutenant Cameron Price, Platoon commander at, for some of them, yes, their first time out of the uk, for one of the, one of the Highlanders, the first time he flew out of the uk. So for a lot of them it's, it's their first time working with overseas, overseas partner nation.
- [50:03]
Danielle Sheridan
We're just talking to you as there's loads of gunfire in the background. Can you explain what's happening?
- [50:08]
Lieutenant Cameron Price
Yeah. So at the moment we're, we're working with Romanian and Greek forces and each of the troops are showing their different, their different methods of clearing an urban environment. So the gunfire you can hear in the background, a gun group that are firing in soldiers into a built up terrain.
- [50:29]
Danielle Sheridan
And why is it important to practice this?
- [50:31]
Lieutenant Cameron Price
It's always important to keep our skills and drills up to scratch. But also I think the most important part of this is Working with these partner nations, people that may well be as part of the Allied Reaction Force. For NATO, our whole reason for being here is an operational kind of rehearsal. So for us, it's about where NATO is ready to send us. And the whole reason we're out here is being conversant with other partner nations. So we're ready for wherever NATO is.
- [51:03]
Andreas Flodstrom
Ready to send us.
- [51:04]
Company Sergeant Major Buntime
NATO as a large organization, so working alongside the Romanians, working alongside the Greeks. Over the next coming weeks, we're working alongside our Spanish and French counterparts. So it's always good to do that. Which then shows that we, as a, as an organization, as a NATO, can project ourselves forward. So it's good, especially for the young jocks, the young private soldiers within the company, to see that we are part of NATO. NATO is a large organisation, so we're working alongside the Romanians, working alongside the Greeks. Over the next coming weeks, we're working alongside both Spanish and French counterparts, so it's always good to do that. Which then shows that we, as an organization, as a NATO, can't project ourselves forward.
- [51:41]
David Knowles
Then Danielle interviewed Brigadier Andy Watson.
- [51:44]
Brigadier Andy Watson
It's about understanding our role in the NATO hierarchy of plans for this area, also understanding what our role could be potentially in the national defence plans of Romania. So much more than an exercise from a brigade commander's perspective. This is all about proving our readiness, proving our agility.
- [52:04]
Danielle Sheridan
Since 2021, I've been coming out to these exercises and talking about readiness and agility seem to be the key words, but I feel like this is much more than that now. You know the Prime Minister has literally said he could send your troops into Ukraine. So what's your response to that?
- [52:22]
Brigadier Andy Watson
It's absolutely proven that I think you will see today and tomorrow the capability that the Brigade has. And whether the Brigade does anything in the future will be up to ministers. My job is to make sure that they've got options and a credible force package. I think you will see credible force package.
- [52:40]
Danielle Sheridan
Do you feel confident, them, based on what you've seen, that if you do get sent to Ukraine, you could handle it?
- [52:49]
Brigadier Andy Watson
Raymata is very clear in terms of the importance of Ukraine being in a strong position. He's been very clear on the UK's role in any potential task in the future. If my brigade was part of that, I'm very content that we're ready to play our part.
- [53:03]
Danielle Sheridan
Do you feel concerned at all? I ask that because troop numbers will dip below 70,000 for the first time this year, they were obviously cut dramatically under the Tories So what I write about constantly is that we don't have enough soldiers. So with that, you know, if we don't have enough soldiers in the uk, how are we going to fare if we then start sending them abroad to peacekeep another nation?
- [53:31]
Brigadier Andy Watson
What I can say is that from previous jobs, you know, I'm content and confident that the army planning and the MOD planning will take into account our capabilities as well as our capacity. And that would be a key factor as well. And in the planning process, not only what the mission is asking off you on the ground, but also how long we think tough to do it for. And that's going to be two of the key drivers, I think, for any force package design.
- [53:58]
David Knowles
And because 4 Scots is a battalion from Scott, Scotland, they never travel without their pipes. We'll link to Danielle's piece in the show Notes. Ukraine the Latest is an original podcast from the Telegraph created by David Knowles to support our work and stay on top of all of our Ukraine news, analysis and dispatches from the ground. Please subscribe to the Telegraph. You can get your first three months for just £1 at www.telegraph.co.uk Ukraine the latest or sign up to Dispatches, our foreign affairs newsletter, bringing stories from our warning foreign correspondence straight to your inbox. We also have a Ukraine Live blog on our website where you can follow updates as they come in through throughout the day, including insights from regular contributors to this podcast. We also do the same for other breaking international stories. You can listen to this conversation live at 1pm London time each weekday on X Spaces. Follow the Telegraph on X, formerly known as Twitter so you don't miss it to our listeners on YouTube. Please note that due to issues beyond our control, there is sometimes a delay between broadcast and upload, so if you want to hear Ukraine the Latest as soon as it is released, do please refer to Podcast Apple Apps. If you appreciated this podcast, please consider following Ukraine the Latest on your preferred podcast app and leave us a review as it really does help others find the show. Please also share it with those who may not be aware we exist. You can also get in touch directly to ask questions or give comments by emailing Ukraine pottelegraph.co.uk We do continue to read every single message. You can also contact us directly on X. You'll find our handles in the description for this episode. As ever, we're especially interested to hear where you're listening from around the world. Ukraine the Latest was today produced by executive producers Louisa Wells and David Knolls.
- [56:15]
Podcast Advertiser/Host
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- [56:47]
Andreas Flodstrom
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