A Moscow car bomb and Putin’s telethon

Summary

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Ukrainecast: A Moscow Car Bomb and Putin’s Telethon

BBC News | December 23, 2025
Hosts: Victoria Derbyshire & Vitaly Shevchenko
Guests: James Waterhouse (BBC Ukraine Correspondent), Steve Rosenberg (BBC Russia Editor)

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Episode Overview

This episode examines the assassination of a high-ranking Russian general by car bomb in Moscow, the latest wave of Russian attacks on Ukraine, ongoing debates about European and American support for Ukraine, and Vladimir Putin’s annual “Direct Line” media marathon—complete with notable moments of staged spectacle and awkward broadcasting errors. The Ukrainecast team also discusses on-the-ground reactions both in Russia and Ukraine, the psychology behind recent attacks, and the complex reality of Western aid as cracks appear in European unity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Listener Appreciation and Reflections

• The hosts open by thanking listeners for their support and recount personal experiences and listener contributions, including some who assisted Vitaly Shevchenko's family during their evacuation from Eastern Ukraine.
  • “Some of them have helped me personally, helped evacuate my family from Eastern Ukraine. Thank you, Richard.” (02:27, Vitaly Shevchenko)

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2. Moscow Car Bomb: The Assassination of General Fanil Sarovarov

Discussion Leaders: Steve Rosenberg, Vitaly Shevchenko, James Waterhouse
Timestamp: 04:06 – 08:17

What Happened:

• Lieutenant General Fanil Sarovarov, a senior official in the Russian General Staff, was killed by a car bomb—a sophisticated attack that represents the third assassination of a Russian general in Moscow in 12 months.
• Rosenberg describes the scene, noting a shifted mood among locals from shock to "tired resignation."
  • “When I chatted to people after this attack, it wasn't so much a sense of shock, but kind of sort of tired resignation… I think after nearly four years of Russia's war on Ukraine, I think there is this sense of resignation. People don't know when it's going to end.” (05:22, Steve Rosenberg)

Attribution and Implications:

• Russian authorities swiftly suggested Ukrainian involvement.
• James Waterhouse discusses the SBU (Ukraine's security service) and their increasingly bold targeted actions abroad, noting “psychological impact” but also the dual dangers:
  • “You have very powerful military officers being killed in the heart of Moscow... it also feeds into the Kremlin's claim that they are under threat from Ukraine, from the West.” (07:05, James Waterhouse)

Ukrainian Policy:

• Vitaly notes these attacks are never officially claimed by Ukraine, but unnamed sources often confide in journalists, displaying a mix of operational secrecy and satisfaction.
  • “Of course they haven't done it officially as a matter of policy, they never do… but it's sources, not officials.” (07:48, Vitaly Shevchenko)

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3. Major Russian Attack on Ukrainian Infrastructure

Timestamp: 08:17 – 09:36

• Recent Russian drone and missile strikes targeted Ukrainian energy systems; multiple regions left almost entirely without electricity, casualties include a 4-year-old girl.
  • “At least three regions in Ukraine have been left almost completely without electricity… This is the ninth massive attack this year targeting Ukraine’s energy system.” (09:00, Vitaly Shevchenko)

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4. Putin’s Annual “Direct Line” Press Event

Discussion Leaders: Steve Rosenberg, Vitaly Shevchenko
Timestamp: 09:36 – 17:51

Format & Kremlin Choreography:

• The annual event has merged Putin’s phone-in and year-end press conference: a four-and-a-half-hour session used to project Putin as a paternal problem-solver, but with intensely stage-managed optics.
  • “He uses the event to try to present himself as this kind of, you know, all powerful father figure of the country.” (10:33, Steve Rosenberg)
• Visuals presented uncensored questions from the public (“Are elections fake?”), although Putin selectively ignored the most critical ones, raising further doubts about authenticity.
  • “There were really, really critical questions… Vladimir Putin never answered those questions. But even that bit could be carefully choreographed.” (11:59, Vitaly Shevchenko)

Steve Rosenberg’s Question for Putin:

• Steve asks about Russia’s future—repression, crackdowns, media blackouts—eliciting a lengthy but evasive Putin response, heavily focused on “Western betrayal” and NATO antagonism.
  • “His resentment really came through that's built up over the years... he believes Russia has been duped by the west and that Russia's not responsible for what's going on.” (14:25, Steve Rosenberg)
• Russian state TV later truncated Rosenberg's question to just “Will there be more special military operations?”, omitting any mention of repression.

Putin’s Mixed Messages:

• Putin offers cooperation “if Russia’s security is respected” but, in the same week, insults European leaders as “little piggies,” underlining the contradictory tone.
  • “He is sticking to maximalist demands on Ukraine... at the moment, it's difficult to see how that's possible.” (16:37, Steve Rosenberg)

Memorable ‘Blooper’ Moment:

• Russian TV reporter mistakenly interviews the wrong “Steve Rosenberg” live—revealing the high-stakes confusion and orchestration of state media.
  • “That was Russia Channel One doing a live interview with Steve Rosenberg. Except it wasn't Steve Rosenberg… I suppose everybody makes mistakes. I don't know what the Russian word for blooper is, but that was a classic one.” (18:44, Steve Rosenberg)

Operating as a BBC Journalist in Russia:

• Rosenberg describes his daily diplomatic tightrope and hints at Russian officials’ genuine interest in Western perceptions, despite anti-Western rhetoric:
  • “I get the impression they do actually care what we think sometimes... there's a block, like a 40 minute block of news about what the Western media is saying about Russia.” (20:16, Steve Rosenberg)

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5. European and American Support: Aid Package Drama

Discussion Leaders: Vitaly Shevchenko, James Waterhouse
Timestamp: 21:39 – 26:27

Debate Over Russia’s Frozen Assets:

• Europe debates, but ultimately declines, using frozen Russian assets to fund Ukraine due to internal disagreements and fears over future Russian claims, especially for Belgium (where much of the money is held).
  • “What was immediately apparent was division… Ultimately, Ukraine left with the 90 billion euros it wanted… Those frozen Russian assets were not used, but they remain frozen.” (22:27, James Waterhouse)
• Cracks are emerging between European countries on how to proceed, with some (Belgium, Italy, Malta, Bulgaria) opposed and pro-Russian countries (Hungary, Slovakia, Czechia) abstaining entirely.

Aid in Perspective vs. Russian Military Spending:

• Even the €90bn package doesn’t match Russia’s annual military spending (~€130bn), highlighting Ukraine’s ongoing funding gap.
  • “Russia is spending more, much, much more in its military.” (25:55, Vitaly Shevchenko)

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6. US-Ukraine Peace/Guarantee Negotiations

Discussion Leader: James Waterhouse
Timestamp: 26:27 – 29:13

• Behind-the-scenes US-Ukraine talks include proposals for security guarantees and economic prosperity; details (especially on US military commitment) remain unclear.
  • “President Zelensky said in Brussels… I want to know what America would do if Russia invaded again. And I still don't know that.” (26:32, James Waterhouse)
• US Envoy Steve Witkoff is notably “aligned with the Russians,” further clouding prospects.

Ukrainian Options:

• If US “boots on the ground” are off the table, Ukraine is likely to pivot towards boosting its own military capabilities with Western support.

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7. Russian Rhetoric: “Spirit of Anchorage”

Speaker: Steve Rosenberg
Timestamp: 29:13 – 31:13

• Kremlin references to the “Spirit of Anchorage” hint at a prior, vague understanding with Trump—a rhetorical device now used to justify a Russian peace process built on Russian terms:
  • “When the Russians talk about spirit of Anchorage, they seem to indicate there was some understanding with the Trump administration… at some point after Anchorage, that spirit sort of disappeared.” (29:23, Steve Rosenberg)
• Putin’s confidence is buoyed by battlefield gains, political fractures in the West, and the expectation of a Trump presidency more sympathetic to Moscow’s vision for Ukraine.

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8. Ukrainian Christmas Traditions

Listener Q&A:
Timestamp: 31:51 – 33:13

• Traditionally, Ukrainian families celebrate with 12 dishes representing the apostles, though poverty often limited the scale of such feasts, especially during the 1990s.
  • “That is correct. You have 12 courses for the number of the apostles. The actual courses, they vary regionally… But it kind of depended on how much money the family had available.” (32:07, Vitaly Shevchenko)

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Notable Quotes

“When I chatted to people after this attack... there wasn't so much a sense of shock, but kind of sort of tired resignation... there is this sense of resignation. People don't know when it's going to end.” — Steve Rosenberg, on mood in Moscow after car bombing (05:22)

“What was immediately apparent was division. You know, this was not a harmonious conference. Ultimately, Ukraine left with the 90 billion euros it wanted... but those frozen Russian assets were not used.” — James Waterhouse, on the European aid summit (22:27)

“He uses the event to try to present himself as this kind of, you know, all powerful father figure of the country.” — Steve Rosenberg, on Putin's telethon (10:33)

“There's a block, like a 40 minute block of news about what the Western media is saying about Russia.” — Steve Rosenberg (20:16)

“The cracks really are starting to widen from within Ukraine's most immediate neighbors as to how to help Ukraine.” — James Waterhouse (23:09)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 04:06 — The car bomb in Moscow: what happened
• 07:05 — Ukraine’s SBU and its expanding overseas operations
• 09:00 — Russia’s ninth massive strike on Ukrainian electricity grid
• 10:33 — Putin’s “Direct Line”: stage management and symbolism
• 13:18 — Steve Rosenberg questions Putin; how Russian TV censors Western questions
• 18:44 — A Russian journalist interviews the wrong “Steve Rosenberg”
• 21:39 — The battle in Europe over how to use frozen Russian assets for Ukraine
• 26:32 — Behind-the-scenes Miami peace negotiations and US-Ukraine security guarantees
• 29:23 — “Spirit of Anchorage” and what it means for Russian diplomatic confidence
• 32:07 — Ukrainian Christmas customs: 12 dishes, family stories

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Tone and Atmosphere

Despite the gravity of the episode’s topics—assassinations, war crimes, shaky diplomacy—the hosts maintain their trademark blend of human warmth, pragmatic insight, and a dash of dry BBC wit. The episode oscillates between field reportage, sharp analytical commentary, and moments of lighter listener engagement.

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For further information, original interviews, and ongoing coverage, visit the Ukrainecast online community.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[C]

It's 1,399 days since Russia began its full scale invasion of Ukraine and we want to say thank you because we have been overwhelmed by all the messages you have been sending us in the last seven days or so.

[D]

And, well, what can I say? I'm genuinely humbled.

[C]

I'm going to read some names of you who've written in because we appreciate it so much, but let me read this one from Guy Woodland, who's in Norfolk here in the uk. This is just an extract from his email. I've been a regular listener to the podcast since it began. The reporting is exceptional and the educational value incalculable. The podcast still has an important role to play. I'd like to thank the whole team for all their hard work over nearly four years. Your professionalism and humanity are an example to all broadcasters. Wishing you all the best for the future and a Merry Christmas, Guy. Thank you so much for that. There's Andy in Shropshire and Daniel Ross and Paul Anderson in Queensland on the Gold Coast, Nick in Flanders, Mary Cracknell, Christine. Tim, Kelly Gateshead. So many of you contacted us and we are really grateful and it really moves us as well. In Edinburgh, Keith in County Down. I could go on and on and on. I'm not going to read everybody's name.

[D]

I just wanted to thank our listeners. Yeah, well, some of them have helped me personally helped evacuate my family from Eastern Ukraine. Thank you, Richard.

[C]

That's true.

[D]

Thanks to many others whose names I don't even know, but they have helped. I've made quite a few friends along the journey. Hello, Jakob in Prague. Yeah, it's. It's been quite a journey. It's been humbling and it's not over.

[C]

We have got plenty to get into. Today we're going to talk about the assassination of a Russian general In Moscow, an 11th hour agreement to keep funding Ukraine, and the really bizarre, surreal moment when Russian television interviewed our very own Steve Rosenberg at Vladimir Putin's annual press conference. Only it wasn't him.

[D]

This is Ukraine Cast.

[C]

Ukraine Cast from BBC News. This is a sovereign nation under unprovoked attack.

[A]

We are ready to finish this war as quick as possible.

[C]

Russia is not preparing for peace.

[D]

We are an enemy of NATO and we'll do whatever is necessary to ensure our security. I don't love it.

[C]

I don't like when that happens.

[A]

Could be big trouble.

[E]

This is a game changer for Ukraine

[B]

and for the European security.

[C]

Hello. This is Victoria Derbyshire in the BBC Radio van.

[D]

And this is Vitaly Shevchenko in the Ukraine car studio.

[C]

And you have got, I think, James Waterhouse with you. Vitaly.

[D]

That's correct. Here he is.

[E]

Hello, everyone.

[C]

Hi. Our Ukraine correspondent, of course, and in Moscow, Steve Rosenberg is with us, our Russia editor. Hi, Steve.

[A]

Hello there. Hi.

[C]

We're going to start with the killing yesterday of a Russian general in Moscow. Who was he and what happened, Steve?

[A]

Yeah, the third Russian general to have been killed in Moscow in the last 12 months or so, Lieutenant General Fanil Sarovarov. He was the head of the Operational Training Directorate of the Russian General Staff, so quite a senior figure. He came out of his apartment block, got into his car, started driving off, and a car bomb which had been hidden under the vehicle, was detonated, basically turning the car into sort of a mangled wreck. The general wasn't killed immediately, but he was critically wounded and then died later from his injuries. So when I went down to the scene, the whole area had been sort of cordoned off. There were investigators looking at the wreckage, lots of police. What was interesting for me was to speak to people, speak to local residents, because a year ago, when General Igor Kirillov was blown up by a bomb hidden in an electric scooter, and I chatted to people who lived in the apartment block and nearby, there was a real sense of shock that this kind of thing could happen on their doorstep in Moscow. When I chatted to people after this attack, it wasn't so much as much a sense of shock, but kind of sort of tired resignation. So one man said to me, well, you know, what do you expect? There's a war on. And a woman said to me, when is this going to end? And I don't know how it's going to end. And I think after nearly four years of Russia's war on Ukraine, I think there is this sense of resignation. People don't know when it's going to end.

[D]

What I also find notable is how quickly the Russians suggested that Ukraine is behind this attack, within hours. Svetlana Petrenko, the spokeswoman for the Russian Investigations Committee, she said various versions are being considered, including the Ukrainian one. And to me it suggests that the, the authorities in Moscow, they're not really embarrassed by Ukraine's apparent ability to strike right at the heart of the Russian military establishment.

[C]

So this might be the sbu, Ukraine's security service, potentially behind this assassination. James, tell us about the sbu.

[E]

Well, Ukraine security service have become quite efficient, haven't they, at launching sophisticated targeted strikes overseas? You know, last week they were claiming to have targeted another ship from Russia's ghost fleet in the Mediterranean off the coast of Greece, marking, you know, very much an escalation or a new frontier, certainly in this war. And they have claimed such attacks in the past. And for Ukraine, there is a psychological element here. You have very powerful military officers being killed in the heart of Moscow. Now, to what extent that disrupts military operations I think is up for debate, but it's a double edged sword for Ukraine as well. Just hearing Steve there talking about the impact it has on residents, it also feeds into the Kremlin's claim that they are under threat from Ukraine, from the West. But nevertheless, it's an operation, it's a strategy, it's a tactic that Ukraine has been not just happy to continue, but have got pretty good at as well.

[D]

When you say they've claimed such attacks, of course they haven't done it officially as a matter of policy, they never do. But they tell journalists, without giving the names and the positions of people who are issuing these statements that it's them, that his bu has done it, but it's sources, not officials.

[E]

Yeah, they excitedly send pictures and you know, I think in, you know, I think they're very pleased with the outcome regardless.

[C]

And something which Ukrainians have got used to, particularly at this time of year, a huge attack on Ukraine from Russia. According to President Zelenskyy overnight, Vitaly.

[D]

Yes, about 600 drones, about 30 missiles. Yet again, it's the Ukrainian energy system that was the primary target. At least three regions in Ukraine have been left without almost completely without electricity. To quote the Ukrainian energy Minister. Elsewhere across Ukraine, electricity rationing has been introduced. At the moment of Speaking shortly after 01:00 London time on Tuesday, three people have been confirmed dead, one a four year old girl and the other two are older than 70. In Odessa, local ports been hit again, a civilian cargo ship. And the Ukrainian authorities are saying that this is the ninth massive attack this year targeting Ukraine's energy system.

[C]

Okay, let's move on to a pretty major annual event in Russia which took place on Friday. And Steve, you were there. Remind our listeners what the Direct Line is.

[A]

Well, there used to be two major Putin events every year. One was Direct Line, which was a kind of a marathon called the President kind of show. And the other one was the end of year press conference that Vladimir Putin gave. Now both events have been sort of merged into one. So you get this bumper press conference come Putin phone in, which takes place in December. And I went along to it. Yes, you need to have a good breakfast before you go in because it lasts a long time, so four and a half hours. And, and President Putin answered maybe sort of 80 questions in that time, or 77 questions, something like that. Yeah, it's always a stage for Vladimir Putin to kind of present his worldview and also kind of style himself as this kind of father of the nation type figure, sorting out people's problems. Because the thing is, the whole system in Russia is built around one man, Vladimir Putin. And so if you've got a problem in your village, if they're closing down the local maternity hospital and the local officials aren't doing anything about it, what do you do? You call Putin, or if the pipes are rusty or if the road's got potholes, then you write a message to Vladimir Putin. So he uses the event to try to present himself as this kind of, you know, all powerful father figure of the country. How successful he was, you know, we can decide, we can discuss that, but it's certainly seen as an important event by the Kremlin.

[C]

And Vitaly, obviously your day job is to monitor Russian media. How successful did Russian state media think this event was this year?

[D]

Well, it was one of many that I've seen over the years and I was joking with colleagues here in the office that we could possibly draft Vladimir Putin's answers for him in advance because we knew what he was going to say on Ukraine, of course, he, he blamed Ukraine for unleashing this war. He accused Europe of using Ukraine to attack Russia. The only thing that was different from the past years, and again, it wasn't really surprising was the fact that America was not portrayed as, as an enemy. It seems that it's, it's, it's Europe that's taking place of Russia's enemy number one. It's a very carefully stage managed event. But at the background they have these massive screens where they showed questions sent in by members of the public, apparently un, uncensored. And there were some really, really critical questions. Things like, you know, our standards of living are declining and yet the ruling party keeps winning. Are elections fake by any chance? Vladimir Putin never answered those questions. But even that bit could be carefully choreographed to give an impression that, you know, he's in touch with the people. He's not afraid to see those questions. People have a opportunity to ask those questions.

[C]

And Steve was able to ask a question. Let's have a listen.

[A]

So the question I asked, which hadn't been pre approved, was what kind of future are you planning you creating for Russia in the future that you're building? Will the hunt for enemies, internal and external, continue? Will more critics be prosecuted? Will there be more switch offs of mobile Internet in the country and will there be more special military operations? And I said, you said in the past, Mr. President, that our future depends on us, in other words on everyone. But since you're the most powerful person in the country, basically all the power in Russia is in your hands. So is the future. So what's the future going to be? Interestingly, in Russian television reporting afterwards, that question was summarized, was cut down to I have a question about the future. Will there be more special military operations? The rest of it about prosecutions and search for enemies. That was all cut out, but the question went out live. So the question was about the future. In his response, which lasted about nine and a half minutes, there wasn't much about the future of Russia, but there was a lot about resentment about NATO expansion. There was a lot about criticism of European leaders. His resentment really came through that's built up over the years. He believes that Russia has been duped, sort of deceived by the west and that Russia's not responsible for what's going on. It's the fault of the west and Europe. So that shone through in his response and he didn't miss the opportunity to comment on the BBC being sued by Donald Trump, this multi billion dollar lawsuit. He was encouraged by the moderator to comment on this. And initially Vladimir Putin said, oh, I Don't want to comment on that. And then duly commented on it and basically supported Donald Trump.

[C]

And James, President Putin said, we're ready to cease hostilities immediately provided that Russia's medium and long term security is ensured and we are ready to cooperate with you. How might that be being seen by leaders across Europe?

[E]

I think as far as Europe's concerned, it's a message to America. That's what Europe is concerned about. And the vibe I got granted from further away was that Vladimir Putin certainly isn't interested at the moment in taking his foot off the pedal. To use a Steve analogy, he is clearly still looking to pursue his aims. The politics of his invasion have not changed. And I think with these ongoing US Led peace efforts, you're looking at this, with this Vladimir Putin press conference, you're looking at the variable which needs to change a cog in this democratic machine. Will Vladimir Putin eventually want to stop fighting or will he be forced to stop fighting either through external pressure or through unsustainable losses? Until that changes, this peace process is going to keep going in this loop. And I think, you know, I was looking for, for any glint of, of a change of stance and I did not see one.

[A]

There's been a lot of discussion about whether Vladimir Putin was offering some kind of olive branch in his response to me when he said that he's willing to cooperate with Europe and European leaders if they respect Russia. The problem here is that the same week of the press conference, he also referred to European leaders who support Ukraine as little piggies. So on the one hand he's talking about cooperation, on the other hand, he, he's talking very condescendingly about those people who are supporting Ukraine. And I think that he is sticking to maximalist demands on Ukraine. And if European leaders were to accept those demands of Vladimir Putin, then he would be happy, I think, to build a relationship with them. But at the moment, it's difficult to see how that's possible.

[C]

There was a nice moment, I'm putting that in inverted commas, Steve, in President Putin's answer to you, where he paused to acknowledge that he wasn't blaming you personally for the actions of the west, which he seemed to find vaguely amusing.

[A]

Yes, that's nice. That's nice to know that I'm not responsible for what's going on. Very often, you know, as a BBC correspondent here, when you interview or you speak to Russian officials, you know, they say you in the west, you Westerners, and you feel like they're, you know, you are the embodiment of the West. Of the evil West. So, yes, very nice of Vladimir Putin to point out that he doesn't blame me personally for what's happening.

[C]

And there was also this moment where a Russian journalist claimed to be interviewing you live on tv. Let's have a listen. Paluch spadet.

[A]

That was bizarre. Victoria. So that was Russia Channel One doing a live interview with Steve Rosenberg. Except it wasn't Steve Rosenberg that she went up to. It was a Russian journalist, a Russian war correspondent who was standing there. And she went up to him, said, Steve. And he responded to that and said, yes. And she said, you know, is this your first Vladimir Putin press conference? He said, oh, no, I've been to several. And that was it. And then she said, well, Steve, you see, Steve's had the chance to ask questions in the past, but it wasn't me. There you go. I suppose everybody makes mistakes. You know, I don't know what the Russian word for blooper is, but that was a classic one.

[C]

Right. And you think it was genuinely inadvertent? There wasn't an attempt to sort of pull the wool over the eyes of people watching?

[A]

I don't think so, because it wasn't a very detailed interview. I mean, all she asked was, you know, was this your first Vladimir Putin press conference? That was it. Maybe at that point she realized, or she was told in her ear that, oops, that wasn't. That's not Steve Rosenberg. Because actually, after the press conference, lots of Russian TV crews did come up to me, the real one, and ask my reaction, you know, are you satisfied with the President's response? What do you think of what the President said? Are you pleased that you have the opportunity to ask the President a question?

[C]

How do you answer all that? I mean, obviously you have to be as neutral and diplomatic as you are on this podcast. Is that what you are like when you're being asked questions by Russian journos?

[A]

I've said before that, you know, every day I get out of bed, it's like walking a tightrope, Right. And in everything I do. And it's also when you're surrounded by lots of Russian TV crews asking you questions, yes, you have to be diplomatic. When they put you on the spot, they say, well, you have the chance to ask Vladimir Putin a question. Why don't our journalists in UK have a chance to ask your prime Minister a question? So you have to be very diplomatic. And also you have to get out of the hall because we had so much material to edit and very little time to do it before the evening news and literally there were so many crews coming up to us asking what's interesting. The last thing I'd say is that very often Russian officials claim that they don't care what the west thinks about Russia. They don't care, they'll just do their own thing. But actually, I get the impression that they do actually care what we think sometimes about what's being said, what's being done. I mean, every day on Russian state television, there's a block, like a 40 minute block of news about what the Western media is saying about Russia. So as I say, it's good that I had access to the event. It's great that I had the chance to ask a question to President Putin. So I can't really complain about access. We're still, despite the anti Western rhetoric, we're still given access to these events.

[D]

Okay, now onto Europe and its efforts to help Ukraine. As our listeners will know, for weeks there have been discussions about this huge pot of money, Russian money held in Europe. At the moment, these assets are frozen, meaning that they still belong to Russia, technically speaking, but Russia can't use them. And the original plan proposed by the likes of Friedrich Merz of Germany was to finally use that money to secure a massive loan to Ukraine. Now, that didn't quite work out, did it, James?

[E]

It did not. I think there are two ways to look at this. I was at the European Commission last week where you had the choreographed walks on the red carpet as the world leaders arrived. And what was immediately apparent was division. You know, this was not a harmonious conference. Ultimately, Ukraine left with the 90 billion euros it wanted. It needed better than nothing, which is better than nothing. It's too. It covers two thirds of a gaping hole in its finances over the next two years. It hopes other allies outside of Europe will make up the rest to allow it to keep functioning and to keep fighting as a country. Those frozen Russian assets were not used, but they remain frozen. So that's one way to look at it. The other way to look at it is that the cracks really are starting to widen from within Ukraine's most immediate neighbors as to how to help Ukraine. You had countries like Belgium, which it turned out weren't bluffing over their nervousness of using the assets in this way. The Prime Minister, Bart De Wever, he was under huge pressure domestically. Belgians you spoke to in Brussels, they were really nervous about Belgium being liable for having to pay Russia back because it's where most of the money is held. And the money in question is Almost, you know, a third of its annual gdp. Belgium is not a big country. Belgium was joined by other countries opposing this idea, like Italy, like Malta, like Bulgaria. But then you also had the pro Russian countries like Hungary, with Prime Minister Viktor Orban, like Slovakia, like Czechia now, who didn't want anything to do with this deal. So they were not involved at all. So it was a very complicated democratic exercise. They had a press conference in the small hours to announce this loan was to be provided. But from increased borrowing, just the final thing. The thing that really stuck with me is Emmanuel Macron of France said in the small hours, we need more direct dialogue with Russia. And that I think is a marked change in tactic. And I suspect this is France where clearly it's reluctant to some extent as to what it can provide Ukraine in European security. I think it's also Europe trying to gain prominence with America. They're not having much luck with Donald Trump and getting him to commit more in the long term. So why doesn't Europe increase its own value by engaging with the Kremlin?

[D]

Does that mean that Europe's running out of options, that it's giving up its previous strategy of what about four years of not talking to Vladimir Putin? Because the previous thinking was, well, there's no point. He insists on attacking Ukraine.

[C]

Sorry, if we go back four years. Emmanuel Macron was on the phone to President Putin, do you remember, before the full scale invasion, to try to convince him. And obviously it didn't work. But the idea that President Putin needs to talk to Emmanuel Macron or Keir Starmer or whoever, I mean, he really doesn't. He just goes over their heads to Donald Trump, doesn't he?

[E]

Yeah, I was at this sort of security conference the other week. We had a load of military analysts and they were giving their forecasts for next next year. And I sort of, in small talk, asked what levers did they think Europe could pull to pull America back in line, to show it was willing. And by the time I'd finished asking my question, they just said none. Europe is running out of money as to how to support Ukraine. And in a military sense, it is still, despite the pledges of trillions of pounds to be spent over the, over the coming decades, it is still hugely dependent on America's military might and not least its intelligence capabilities.

[D]

To put things into perspective, okay, Ukraine got 90 billion euros for the next two years, which is good for Ukraine, because it was running out of money and it would probably have none by next spring. But Russia's annual spending on Its military this year was somewhere in the region of 130 billion euros. So the fact is that Russia is spending more, much, much more in its military.

[C]

Right. More talks over the weekend in Miami. Who were they involving?

[E]

So we had Steve Witkoff, the now extremely prominent US Envoy, hosting his Ukrainian counterpart, Rustum Umarov, where they talked about what we're gathering from Kyiv, several new draft documents. It seems to be centering around a 20 point plan, a peace plan, which we're told has mentions of US security guarantees as well as a plan for economic prosperity inside Ukraine. But it's the detail we still lack as to what America is willing to commit militarily, what deterrent America is willing to provide. President Zelensky said in Brussels a few days ago, I want to know what America would do if Russia invaded again. And I still don't know that. And I think that is clearly unresolved from the talks over the weekend. And then we saw Mr. Wyckoff host Kirill Dmitriev, his Russian counterpart, where we gather there were more negotiations. But again, we talk about the Russian variable here. You know, you hear from the Kremlin that they don't suspect this latest draft will change their position at all.

[D]

I've got a pub quiz question for you, James. Oh, Russia remains fully committed to achieving peace in Ukraine. Who said that? It was Steve Witkoff. Amazing.

[E]

Give me a chance. I wouldn't have got that.

[D]

Yeah. So it gives us an idea of what sort of negotiations those were. Steve Witkoff does sound like he is very much aligned with the Russians. Volodymyr Zelensky speaking yesterday. On Monday, he said that the security guarantees that he's getting from the Americans are beginning to look, and I quote, decent quite what security guarantees he has been given. We don't know the issue of whether Ukraine will be forced by the Americans and Russians to give up territory in exchange for some promise of peace that's very much unresolved. And last night's massive attack on Ukraine just shows that Russia is, well, it has no less appetite for attacking Ukraine.

[E]

And just on the point of security guarantees, I think to try and simplify things, right, because there are all kinds of proposals. I think if you're Ukraine, you either want American weaponry and boots on the ground. Boots on the ground is not going to happen. If you're not going to get that and you look at where Europe is seriously lacking, then Ukraine, I would imagine will start looking to bolster its own military and gain commitments and assurances in that regard. If you're not going to get the former. That is Ukraine's only option, I think, in terms of implementing a ceasefire they can believe in.

[C]

Steve, I don't know if you know the answer to this, but Peskov was calling for the spirit of Anchorage to be respected. What do we think that means?

[A]

Oh, that's a difficult one, isn't it? One thing I hope that Grandfather Frost, you know, the Russian Father Christmas brings me for New Year is a dictionary of Kremlin phraseology. Perhaps spirit of Anchorage will be. Will be in there. I think what he means is based on what Vladimir Putin has said about the Alaska summit, he has indicated or claimed that there was some agreement reached with Donald Trump about some compromise. Vladimir Putin claims that he told Donald Trump would be a difficult decision for the Russians, but he was prepared to make it. No details about that. But when the Russians talk about spirit of Anchorage, they seem to indicate that there was some understanding with the Trump administration about how to move forward and that at some point after Anchorage, that spirit sort of disappeared. Basically, the Russians feel confident at the moment and they feel confident enough to kind of push their version of peace, which would be peace on Russia's terms. You were talking about the cracks appearing in Europe that is fuelling Moscow's confidence. The situation on the battlefield where Russia has been making slow progress, but progress has been fueling Russia's confidence. And having Donald Trump in the White House. An American president who criticizes liberal democracy isn't lecturing Russia on democracy. That is fueling Moscow's confidence too. For all these reasons, I think Vladimir Putin feels confident enough to stick to the demands he's been making in his press conference. You refer to his so called peace plan of June 2024. And these were real maximalist demands demanding that Ukrainian troops pull out of all those four regions.

[C]

Steve, thank you very much. As always, I wish you a calm Christmas. I'll put it like that, shall I?

[A]

Goodbye. Happy New Year to all of you.

[C]

And James, thank you. Thanks very much. We will speak soon.

[A]

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[C]

Okay. Leah in Lincoln here in the UK has this question. Vitaly, I learned recently from an Advent quiz that Ukrainian families traditionally have 12 courses when sitting down to enjoy Christmas dinner. Is this accurate? And if so, what do they have?

[D]

Well, it varies. And also we need to remember that for the past few decades of its existence, Ukrainians, well, many of them, were not particularly well off to have 12 courses on their table for Christmas. Well, you'd have to be, well, reasonably wealthy, which wasn't the case for me. We definitely didn't have 12 courses on our table in the desperately poor 1990s. But traditionally, that is correct. You have 12 courses for the number of the apostles. The actual courses, they. They vary regionally, of course. Kutyad, you know, cereal or rice in sweet water was supposed to be there. Everything else that you can associate with the Ukrainian cuisine was also there. Borsch, varanaki. But it kind of depended on how much money the family had available for their Christmas meal and where they lived.

[C]

Yeah, and can you let us know if you will be going to Ukraine soon? Obviously, you have not been able to go since February 2022.

[D]

I'm hoping to, Victoria. I'm hoping to go there early next year and it is going to be, well, a massive homecoming. Yeah, look forward to it.

[C]

Yeah, it's going to be very, very emotional. So, Vitaly, you and I will speak in 2026 on this podcast. And so I am saying this next sentence not for the last time, wherever you are listening in the world. Take care.

[D]

Goodbye.

[C]

See you again, Ukraine.

[E]

Cast from BB.