Ep 1284 | Flashback: Phil Robertson's Questions About Mental Illness, Sin, and the Human Dilemma

Summary

Podcast Summary: Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode 1284 | Flashback: Phil Robertson's Questions About Mental Illness, Sin, and the Human Dilemma
Date: March 6, 2026
Host(s): Phil Robertson, Jason (Jase), Zach, and additional family/theological contributors
Theme: A flashback discussion from 2020, centered on the intersection of mental illness, sin, personal brokenness, and the human dilemma from a Christian worldview.

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Overview

In this episode, the Robertsons revisit a deep, sometimes contentious conversation originally recorded in 2020, exploring questions around mental illness, sin, and the emptiness many experience. Phil drives the dialogue with broad, provocative questions about the language and reality of “sin” in society. The discussion traverses biblical texts, personal stories, critiques of secular psychiatry, and reflections on transformation through Christ.

The episode blends theological analysis with down-home storytelling, wrestling with whether society’s solutions to brokenness and mental health are missing the mark by ignoring spiritual problems at their root.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Disappearance of “Sin” from Public Discourse

• Phil’s Opening Challenge:

  • Phil asks the group, “When is the last time or have you ever heard ... the word sin … in the court system, the school system, the Hollywood governmental agencies?” (01:07).
  • The group discusses how “sin” has become an archaic term; today's world replaces it with “mistakes” or “illness.”
  • Quote: “They don’t use that word anymore ... they say mistakes, illness.” – Phil (02:00)

• Cultural Reframing:

  • Sinful behaviors today are often reinterpreted as psychiatric or behavioral issues, not moral failings.
  • “People want something outside of themselves to explain why they are the way they are.” – Jason (04:47)

2. Describing Brokenness: Theology vs. Psychology

• Root Causes:

  • The Robertsons discuss how counselors and psychiatrists rarely call out sinful behavior because many clients don’t accept or relate to biblical explanations.
  • Quote: “If [the counselor] tells them they’re sinful, they’ll never come back.” – Phil (04:43)

• Conscience and Law:

  • Phil references Romans 2, arguing that God placed a moral law within every heart, even if people deny it:
    • “They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts.” (07:12)
  • Guilt and troubled conscience are viewed as signposts of this internal law, even when society tries to treat such struggles only as psychiatric problems.

3. Legitimate Mental Illness vs. Spiritual Diagnosis

• Acknowledgment of Genuine Illness:

  • The panel affirms that some people truly suffer from biological or chemical imbalances.
  • A family story: Phil recounts how his mother experienced severe manic depression, requiring medication (lithium) and institutional care (10:49).

• Skepticism About Psychiatric Labels:

  • The group observes that what is defined as “mental illness” has shifted over the years alongside cultural norms.
    • Quote: “Things we call mental illness have evolved based on cultural adaptations and expectations.” – Jason (11:47)

4. Is the Solution Spiritual or Medical?

• Who Is Winning?

  • Phil questions which approach better produces “model citizens”—the psychiatric/medical model or spiritual transformation through Christ.
    • Quote: “Which one is producing the most model citizens? ... Is it through the worldly collection of psychiatrists ... or is it the ones that go to the sons and daughters of God?” (23:20)

• Limitations of Secular Solutions:

  • Jason notes the massive prescription of antidepressants despite rising rates of depression and anxiety, suggesting that treating symptoms without addressing spiritual emptiness falls short.
    • Quote: “We’re selling tens of billions of dollars a year in antidepressants … and we’re still depressed, we’re still anxious.” – Jason (15:25)

• Personal Roadmaps:

  • Phil describes the transformative power of repentance and grace, contrasting it to cycles of therapy and medication:
    • “The ones I see that repent ... He’ll take away your sins, free you from guilt and from all this lawlessness.” (26:03)

5. Spiritual Growth and the Role of the Holy Spirit

• Sanctification Over Modification:

  • The team emphasizes that the “fruit of the Spirit”—love, joy, peace, patience, etc.—is not human self-improvement, but a supernatural work.
    • Quote: “The fruit is not fruit we manufacture. It's his fruit, which is why the role of the Holy Spirit is so powerful.” – Jason (36:50)

• Process of Change:

  • Phil reflects on his own life, noting the decade-long journey from repeated failure to lasting change, crediting the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

6. Practical Outcomes and Evangelism

• Patterns of Repentance:

  • Phil recounts how most people he has “converted” were around 27-32 years old, reflecting that by this age, people have built “a track record” and realize secular solutions aren’t enough. (43:24)
  • Quote: “By the time you go a decade [in sin] … you have a track record ... and you're saying, I'm fit to change the way I operate.” (44:02)

• Clarification on Conversion:

  • The team clarifies that “conversion” means sharing the gospel and helping people accept Christ, not personal credit for transformation.

7. Living in Grace, Training in Righteousness

• Striving for Goodness:

  • The path toward Christlike living is gradual; Phil shares, “I was going like over here, back, forth, back. … I looked up after about a decade and I said, ‘You’re not the same guy.’” (46:48)

• Distinguishing Good from Evil:

  • The critical lesson from scripture is that maturity comes by “constant use” of discerning good and evil, a process aided by the Holy Spirit, not mere self-effort. (48:45)
  • Quote: “Solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.” – Phil (48:45)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “When’s the last time you heard the word sin?” – Phil (01:07)
• “They don’t use the word anymore. They say mistakes, illness.” – Phil (02:00)
• “People are looking for something outside of themselves to explain why they are the way they are.” – Jason (04:47)
• “If he tells them they’re sinful, they’ll never come back.” – Phil (04:43)
• “They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts.” – Phil (07:12)
• “What I noticed, they didn’t want to tell that [arrest] story … because it’s all of a sudden… did you commit a sin, to your point, Phil, that even the world says now wait, that’s wrong.” – Unidentified Guest (12:40)
• “Which one is producing the most model citizens?” – Phil (23:20)
• “We’re selling tens of billions of dollars a year in antidepressants … and we’re still depressed, more so than any point in history.” – Jason (15:25)
• “The fruit is not fruit we manufacture. It’s his fruit, which is why the role of the Holy Spirit is so powerful.” – Jason (36:50)
• “By the time you go a decade [in sin]… you have a track record, and you’re saying, I’m fit to change the way I operate.” – Phil (43:24)
• “Solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.” – Phil (48:45)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:07 – Phil questions when “sin” was last discussed in public institutions.
• 04:43 – Conversation on why counselors avoid calling out sin.
• 10:49 – Family story about genuine mental illness (manic depression/lithium).
• 15:25 – Critique of mental health treatments and persistent societal anxiety.
• 23:20 – Phil’s central question: Are psychiatric or spiritual solutions more effective?
• 36:50 – Spiritual fruit as a supernatural outcome, not human effort.
• 43:24 – Reflection on “track records” and prime age for repentance.
• 48:45 – Maturity, discernment, and the training of conscience.
• 52:36 – Phil’s story of daily life “without sin” through the Spirit’s help.

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Tone & Language

• Unapologetically Christian, direct, and often humorous
• Deeply rooted in scripture, blending scripture quotations with everyday analogies (e.g., training dogs, hunting)
• Skeptical of secular mental health solutions, warm toward repentance and spiritual transformation

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode of Unashamed provides a thought-provoking, scripture-informed conversation about the modern world’s struggle with mental illness and personal brokenness. The Robertsons highlight the tendency of society to medicalize or psychologize behaviors the Bible calls “sin,” challenging listeners to consider the deeper spiritual roots of human suffering.

By contrasting biological and spiritual explanations, sharing real-life examples, and candidly discussing their own journeys, the Robertsons invite listeners to reflect on where true transformation comes from. Ultimately, they advocate for acknowledging the reality of sin, embracing the grace and power of Christ, and relying on the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit rather than seeking only human or pharmaceutical solutions.

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Note: Advertisements and promotional content were omitted from this summary.

Transcript

[Zach]

Hey, guys, we got something special for you today. This is Zach, and I want to

[Jason]

give you something new here.

[Zach]

It's a little flashback to 2020, when Phil, Jason, myself were talking about a very important topic called mental illness. And that relationship between spirituality and sin. Behavioral problems, brokenness, emptiness, and just a human dilemma.

[Jason]

We didn't.

[Zach]

We didn't always agree, but these conversations, they really did make us all better. You know, Phil was so sharp, and I think you guys are going to love this. And then next Friday, March 13, we're starting a Hillsdale online course on ancient Christianity. It's the life of Jesus, his apostles, and all the trials and triumphs of the first Christians. I hope you guys will join us. And if you want to take the course along with us, just go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and enroll in the ancient Christianity course. The link will be in the show notes. You can take the class at any time and they're all free. And coming up in the next few weeks, we're going to tell you about something really cool that you'll be eligible to win if you complete the course. Okay? So make sure that you complete the course. All you got to do is sign [e-mail] to get started, and it's no cost to you.

[Phil]

I am unashamed. What about you? So I'm asking myself this question, and I'll ask you younger bucks. I'll ask y' all and, and be sincere in your answer. When is the last time or have you ever heard? Let's just get it down to the court system, the school system, the Hollywood governmental agencies. You say, when's the last time you heard the word sin? Little word. S I n. I don't think they

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

use that word anymore. Yeah, that's an archaic word.

[Phil]

They don't use that word anymore. Okay, well. Well, that leads to my next question. Well, if they're not using that word anymore to characterize certain behaviors.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Yeah.

[Phil]

You know, people are, are shooting, looting, burning, robbing. I mean, hatred is up in your face, spitting in your face, spray painting your car, ripping you out of a vehicle because you're going along with a flag sticking out the window.

[Jason]

You're describing peaceful protest.

[Phil]

I'm describing, oh, perfectly normal and healthy.

[Jason]

Yeah, peaceful.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

What did they use the word? What is the word? The modern day word.

[Phil]

So what do they call what you look at? Sin. We have lists of lists of sins,

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

they say mistakes, illness. Because like I've heard a lawyer say that no matter what, he's a Defense lawyer, no matter what happens, he always says the same thing. Mistakes were made, apologies were given, checks are in the mail.

[Jason]

Yeah, yeah.

[Phil]

Other words. So. So look. So you got to take a Bible text. The acts of the sinful nature are obvious. So the Apostle Paul is saying, you can look out at humanity and you

[Jason]

can say, yeah, you're in Galatians 5.

[Phil]

I'm in Galatians 5. Yeah. And there's two lists here. One list for the sinful and one list for the godly. So everybody says, well, there's no God. I say, everybody. There's a giant percentage of them. There's no God, there's no sin. They're actually just sick. They need a psychiatrist. They need a counselor. Sociologist. They need somebody. Valid point, because.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Tell your story about. You were telling me about the guy who was telling you why he doesn't. Why he doesn't get to the root of the problem. I think this is interesting, and this

[Jason]

is somebody that I've had a lot of robust conversations with about theology, about worldview, about culture. And he said to me one time, he said, zach, you know why?

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

You know why?

[Jason]

Everybody who comes to me comes to me. And I said, no. And he said, now why are they

[Phil]

coming to him to begin with?

[Jason]

He's a counselor.

[Phil]

He's a counselor, okay? One of the one that's right.

[Jason]

So he says. He says, why do you want to know why people come to see me? And he said, they all want to know the same thing, which is, why are they the way that they are? Like, they want to know that one thing that will explain why they are the way they are. And of course, we're always talking theology. So I'm thinking sin. And I asked him, I said, sin. He goes, well, I mean, that's the ultimate answer, but that's not what I tell him. He said, I can't tell them that they'll never come back. He said, people want something.

[Phil]

He said, if he tells them they're sinful, they'll never come back.

[Jason]

Yeah. He says that people are looking for something outside of themselves to explain why they are the way they are. And granted, there are a lot of outside environmental things that affect us, but ultimately, I think that thing in you that's empty is. I think the Bible teaches it's, you know, we've fallen short of the glory of God, everybody has sinned and fallen short of his glory.

[Phil]

But if they don't have a belief in God, they're saying, why am I behaving like I'm behaving Why am I internally? I'm all bent out of shape here. I have these struggles and. And you know, the law. Everyone who sins breaks the law. The definition for sin, First John 3, verse 4. Everyone who sins breaks the law. In fact, sin is lawlessness. But we're living in a culture that says no. The communists say what you need to push through is treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders, which no one but psychiatrists can understand or treat. So when they come to you and they say, I'm not happy, I found myself doing this and doing that, and I just feel upset, but I don't know what to put my finger on. One of the things that's possible, in my opinion. People show that the requirements of the law. This is Romans, chapter two. They show that the requirements of the law. You say, well, what are the requirements of the law? You obey the law. You're not a man of lawlessness. You just obey it. But think about it. I. Yeah, well, you have all these cultures with different sets of laws, rules, if you. If you prefer. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts. Other words, what about in this case? He's saying, the Jews, God wrote it down in stone. And the four top 10, that's a doozy. Yeah. I mean, children, obey your father and mother. Don't murder, don't commit adultery, don't lie, don't steal, don't covet. So the Almighty wrote that down for the Jews. They said, what about all them Gentiles hanging around out there? They never had that. Well, how would they know what was right and what was wrong? How would they know when they were law breakers? Because they come to psychiatrists and they say, I have all these problems, but I don't know exactly what it is. But if you say, well, it's a sin, they would say, oh, no, look, don't give me the Bible stuff. I don't, I don't. I don't believe in sin. When you, you break the law. I don't believe that. But what they don't understand is that the law is written on their hearts. The one who didn't get it in stone, they didn't have a code that you could pull out and say, okay, if I do this, this, this, this, this and this, yeah, I'll be a good person. Their consciences. So what I'm telling you is the reason they come to counselors and sociologists and psychiatrists, the reason they go there is because they don't understand that they have a conscience. And when they violate the law not written in stone or a piece of paper. It's inside their head. We all have it. We have a conscience that tells us, watch what your conscience will do. Your thoughts will accuse you. Why did you do that? You knew that was wrong. Well, what are you doing? And then they all go, oh, I guess maybe I shouldn't do that again. I don't know why I feel guilty about doing that. But, you know, all I did was just, you know, slick somebody out of a few books.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Phil]

And now, I don't know, I've got this guilt about it. I mean, I'm trying to get past it. Can you help me? They said, well, you ever heard the little word sin? They're like, no, no, no, I don't believe in that Bible stuff. Fix my problem, Mr. Counselor. Fix my problem, but don't be talking Bible to me now. It either your conscience accuses you, even defending them. So you say, well, I don't think it was that bad because, you know, everybody does it, so it can't be wrong. That many. Wouldn't be this many people who participate in this kind of behavior. So I don't think your conscience begins to say, wait a minute, it's healthy, it's normal. I mean, you're practicing perversion, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Or you say, it's sin. You need to come to the one who can remove that. So we're giving them the Jesus answer. But the psychiatrists, they never mention the solution to the problem.

[Jason]

I think it's difficult too, in psychiatry. Well, there's. There, there is a legitimate role for psychiatry. I mean, our.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Some people have legitimate mental illness. We, we were so here. My grandma, your mom, that was a chemical imbalance. And she basically would go through stretches where she was another person. And when she got lined out through medication and different things, she didn't even remember what happened. You know, when she. I remember coming back from the hospital one time, she's like, man, who painted this house red? She said, well, you did. Who stopped up all the toilets with wash rags? I was like, that'd be you. She said, I didn't do no such a thing. You know, Remember she would like. I mean, the way if you want to get in trouble, you say something crude or, you know, she would, she would never tolerate any kind of four letter words or anything. But when she was on her rant, oh, she is dropping four letter words. Nobody's business. It was crazy.

[Phil]

They labeled her a manic depressive. And somebody found, through treatment of the Heart, the pump that's in your chest. They found out the lithium, I think it was. So they began to dispense lithium to them and they'd keep them in Pineville, which is a place where the mentally ill end up. So, so. And then you saw a lot of people with. I mean, I'm trying to find out where mental illness is in the scriptures. I'm having a hard time finding that particular phrase because it's not in there.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Well, I was more thinking about just counseling is different. You know, when you say I got some problems, let me go talk to a counselor and figure out what the heck's going on.

[Jason]

Well, you've got counseling. Psychiatry is more. When they're medical doctors, so they're probably looking at things to a more biological.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

See if it's something physical but chemical.

[Jason]

But they, I mean, to be fair to Phil's point, although I do think there is a legitimate framework for psychiatric medicine. But, but the, the diagnostic manual that they use to determine mental illness. When I was in college, it was called the DSM 4 because that was the fourth version. I'm not sure what version it's on now. But I will tell you that if you go look at the history of it, there are things that we call mental illness that have evolved based on kind of cultural adaptations and expectations in society. And so it is somewhat. It always bothered me when I would, you know, I think, well, it's a settled science because it seems like where the culture moves and certain things that would used to be, that would be in this, this manual as a mental illness would not be now simply because society has evolved to not accept that or they've accepted that behavior now as something that's perfectly legitimate?

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Well, yeah, I agree. It's kind of blurred the line because when I did the two year prison ministry, every time I had a one on one, just about almost all. Well, they were like, I can't figure out why I'm here. I'm like, why? Well, what did you do? Tell me the process. They're like, oh, that was a misunderstanding. I was like, okay, but tell me, I want to hear the details. What happened, how, when did. And it would always go down the same road. I'm like, when did the police actually arrest you? Tell me that story. But I noticed they didn't want to tell that story because it's all of a sudden it turned into, I'm the counselor and I'm trying to get to. Did you commit a sin to your point, Phil, that even the world says now wait A minute. That's wrong.

[Zach]

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[Podcast Host/Announcer]

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[Zach]

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[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

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[Zach]

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[Jason]

It's. And it's not even that you commit a sin and then like, oh, no, everything happens. It's more of a state of sin that has caused our dilemma, our ultimate dilemma. Right? I mean, we all got that thing in us. It's like, man, something's not right. Everybody, I think everybody has to deal with that. And so when we were trying to come at it from some humanistic standpoint, and we're going to try to explain this away, it's just. It's falling short. I mean, it's not working. I mean, we're selling tens of billions of dollars a year in antidepressants and psychotropic medications. We're still depressed, we're still anxious, more so than any point in history. You would think that with the advancements in mental health science, that we wouldn't be. I think it's because in a lot of cases, we're not getting to the core of our issue, which is that, yeah, we're in a sinful, fallen world and we are broken. Not just broken, broken. Kind of a nice way of saying we are morally depraved. We are rebellious.

[Phil]

All right, now hold on that. So we have two entities that have arisen, I don't know about Red China, North Korea, Russia, Venezuela, with a complete different system. It's not a constitutional republic, that's for sure, but they've built a system. They're dealing with liars, rapists, thieves, robbers, looters, shooters. These people over there that do not have constitutional republics. They're dealing with these same issues. All of them, every country full of human beings. The sins are all the same. If you're going to go down the sin road, they're sinful. They need a savior and it will fix it. My question is, who's winning? Who's winning? As far as we've got this poor soul, they've come to you. I've had thousands come to me. What is my problem? What's wrong with me? I just trying to get my life in order, but I'm on crystal meth and I just keep going this downward spiral. I talked to rehab, the people in the rehabs and the prisons like Jason's talking about. A lot of them deny that they ever did anything wrong. I don't know how I ended up here. Now you tell them. Well, crystal meth's powerful drug, you know, fentanyl. We've talked you. Our own kin are dead now because of fentanyl. My own nephew hanged himself in a jail cell full of fentanyl. So who's winning the battle on the explanation on whether it's mental illness, a psychiatric disorder, or it's sinful. So on the one side, if we're supposed to have the answer, Christianity, why is it that it seems like to me that the rate of rebellion. Sinful. We call it sinful behavior. Lawbreakers. How come that it seems to be there's not a real good solution to it. I mean, we're living in a world now to where we've dumbed it down to where, I mean, we can either dominate the psychiatric profession. The Communist Manifesto says the Karl Marx crowd. They said what you need to do is dominate the psychiatric profession, use mental Health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose communist goals. So turn it over to the psychiatrist. No one but psychiatrists can understand or treat what's going on. That's what they're saying. Well, who's winning the battle here?

[Jason]

I think that it's considering that what it means to be human that you are a body with a spirit. So we're not purely biological as humans. Now, the animal kingdom, they don't have the spirit that we have. They don't have rational faculties. A deer. You guys hunt deer. They're still doing the same thing that they were doing 10,000 years ago.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

But he did use that as an example. You remember that in is it Second Peter where he was talking about false apostles came in there and he was like, they're springs without whatever mere instinct they follow their.

[Jason]

Well, desires or.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Yeah, and it says they promise freedom. Second Peter 2, but they are a slave to depravity. They're springs without water. Yeah, that's.

[Phil]

Here's my question.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Well, let me just finish my thoughts. So then he relates it to dogs. And he's like, if you've escaped the corruption of the world, and then you're again entangled in it. And he then says, I mean, you're like a dog returning to its vomit. To. To Zach's point at some point. I mean, I have a little dog who was spoiled by Missy's grandma. She died, left us the dog. This dog was spoiled for years. So he's in the house, he has a doggy door. We have another dog that gets it. When you poop or pee, you go out that door, and you're free to do that all over this yard in creation. So the first, first time, the dog didn't do it. He just poop right there where everybody sitting. So I got up calmly, not in anger. I know it's a dog. I popped him about twice on the rear end. Of course he show, he got the door, then didn't seem for two days because he's like, what in the world is going on? I'm like, this. This is wrong. So about four or five days later, guess what? I come home, I step. I said, what's that smell? We've got more doggy poop in the floor. I grabbed the dog, rub the nose, pop. You say, what is wrong with this dog? He can't get it. Few days later, guess what, Here we go again. Popped him again. So now every time he sees me, he runs. But. But I'm establishing the fact that he Made that analogy in that we use it. What's my problem? We almost become soulless like the dog, when we continue the same habits over and over and over and deny that there's problems.

[Jason]

But we're not soulless. We're not simply spirits though we are so there is a biological component to us. So I think there's a role there. But I think what to feel. To answer your point though, when we approach the human dilemma with the framework that everything is material, all of your psychological problems, they're all material. And if I can just figure out a way to get your neurochemical balances right, if I can get your norepinephrine, your dopamine, your serotonin and your synaptic cleft, and I can. But the problem is that we're not strictly biological. We are biological, but we're also spiritual. So.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Oh, I agree. I was just answering the question. When the guy sits down on the couch and the counselor, because he would never say it, say quit pooping in the middle of your house. That's what the problem is.

[Phil]

Here's my question. You have two avenues from me. Just step back looking at it. They come to counselors, they come to professionals, social workers. The acts of the sinful nature are obvious. I have a sexually immoral problem. I'm breathing anything I can get my hands on. And I keep getting these sexually transmitted diseases. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just sitting, I'm spiraling out of control. I have no self control or it's

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

like I'm into pornography.

[Phil]

Impurity, that's there. Jace debauchery, just, I mean, party time all the time. Idolaters, witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage. All these issues. People are going to one or two places. My question is, which one works the best? The one that says you're just a collection of molecules and all these things are normal and natural. And they say we'll go through a seven step program without God, without Bible teaching, and you'll come out on the other side. What's the rate of people who are cured? And they now are. After going through the series of counseling sessions, they are now amazingly model citizens. And it was all done without anything biblical. We just treated them and we talked and we had them share their problems. Which one is producing the most model citizens? Is it. Is it through the worldly collection of psychiatrists and psychologists? Are they doing a better job? Or is it the ones that go to the sons and daughters of God? They believe in a God they believe in a Savior. They believe, they believe that he can remove the guilt of what you've been participating in. Not only remove your sin, but he can remove the guilt of your sin. Lot in the Bible are talking about, you know, he takes away the guilt. Takes away the guilt.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

So it's unknowable, but I would assume it's Jesus. I mean, they'll probably say, well, you know, show you some stuff, which is

[Phil]

the best way to make models. Because what you want at the end of the day, no matter what you say, you would like to see people just below the acts of the sinful nature. They go through the process, whether it's a spiritual process. Jesus at the front, point them to him, he'll remove your sin. It's Satan. I know you don't think there's a devil, but the Bible says there is. And he's brought you down on the ground, so you're giving them that fix. The other ones are saying, well, you're just mentally ill. We're going to give you some medication and this is going to calm you down. So with pharmaceuticals and counseling on at the end of the day, you will be full of love, joy, you will be happy, happy. Just take dancing or jig. Once you go through the seminar with the counselor, you're going to be full of peace.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

I don't think it's going to work.

[Phil]

You're going to be patient from now on. Kindness will stand out from you. Like now you're crying and you feel guilty for all the immoral action. But you'll be good when you get done with the counseling session, you'll be very faithful to the code, to me for helping you. And you'll be gentle from now on, the rest of your life. Never any outbursts. You will be calm as everything. And finally you will get what you've always been wanting for the last 20 years. And to brought you to prison or in rehab, you will be full completely of self control. You'll be able to control your life where you, you laugh at fentanyl, you laugh at cocaine, you say, what an idiot, I didn't know that. I've been counseled. And they said, well, you know, fentanyl will kill you. And cocaine, you'll have to take more and more and you never seem to get enough because these are real issues. And look, it's a big problem. All I'm asking you all is which is the best route to go. I point them to Jesus. I'm a counselor, they sit down and I point them to Jesus. But the ones I see that repent, which is they're told, you got to repent. You have the decision to take over your own life with the help of God. Or you can just stay down here in this circle of death that you're participating in and you can't. You're going in a circle. You're not going anywhere. I only bring that up because I just noticed. I only bring it up because I noticed. And then I thought about my own life. You start asking people, how old are you? They come to you and they say, I have some serious issues, Mr. Robinson. I'm going to tell you about them. So I said, they, they start going through it. I go the spiritual route. I go point them to Jesus and tell them, you're going to have to repent and turn to God. He'll take away your sins. He'll free you from Satan. He'll free you from guilt. Look, he'll free you from the law, from all this lawlessness you've been doing. He's going to free you from that, put you under a whole other system of grace because he loves you and you just trust him and you try and what few mistakes you make, he's going to take them away because you've repented. You now change your life because you heard about this savior. It's either that or the psychiatrist says you now have enough medication that'll keep you at ease all the time. Take two of these every day and you know, here's your code, the way you operate. You know, get some folks of like minded sit in a circle and talk to each other and tell about, talk about your problems. And they'll stay in that circle for years and years and finally they'll come out of it a model citizen on planet Earth.

[Jason]

Well, you just.

[Phil]

Which is the most productive?

[Jason]

Well, you just canceled 10 years of my career because I sold to mental health facilities, pharmaceuticals. But to your point, I mean, I did, I was in that. In that.

[Phil]

Did you sell a lot of. By the way, did you sell a lot of pharmaceuticals?

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

We did.

[Jason]

We did a lot of.

[Phil]

How many of those pharmaceuticals were aimed at behavior? Speed you up or slow you down, Mellow you out? I mean, we did.

[Jason]

I mean, you know, we. I was an account rep for some antidepressants. What's interesting with the last job I had was a drug that I sold to treat a disease that is created by the psychotropic medicine, medications. So the medicines cause a disease. And then I sold a treatment for the disease that caused.

[Phil]

But now you're Going down the road. I'm glad you're going down that road, because I'm listening to what you're saying. You pushed pharmaceuticals, and this is going to solve the problem. But, Zach, let's face it. What was the attrition rate at the end of the day?

[Jason]

Yeah, I don't know the answer to that question because of. Of obviously, I didn't have contact with patients.

[Phil]

I mean, did it work?

[Jason]

I'll be honest with you.

[Phil]

Did it produce model citizens?

[Jason]

I don't think that. Well, the science is interesting. It's a. You know, there's studies out there, certain antidepressants, that showed that the placebo is just as effective. So I never. I mean, I think there's a place for it, for sure, but in counseling as well. But as long as that counseling doesn't supplant the counselor, you know, John 15, which we're in. I mean, there is a role for a counselor. My translation, ESV calls him the helper. You guys are niv. So it probably says.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

It says counselor, but I just wanted to review. So why are you talking about all this? You know, in John 15, Jesus, he's fixing to die. He has his disciples there, and he says, remain in me. And he does this illustration about. I'm the. I'm the branch. I mean, I'm the vine. You're the. The branches remain in me, by the

[Phil]

way, while you're there. That in me tells you that you're. You're in a position. A lot of people don't realize that when they come to Jesus, they are in. They end up through faith and bowing down to him. They will be placed in a position of. In. In him.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Yeah.

[Phil]

The reason for that is, is God made him who had no sin. No, no. No mental issues one way or the other. Sins are. I'm just down in the depths, and I don't know what's wrong with me.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Yeah.

[Phil]

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us. So that. John 15. So the verse equal, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. So you end up in a position in Christ where he didn't sin. Well, you're in him, Therefore, when God looks at you, he looks at you through the death of Jesus and his resurrection.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Well, let me just.

[Phil]

So you brought us to the conclusion,

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

though, of what led to this conversation. He. He says, remain in me. And then he gets to verse 18, and he says, keep in mind, if the world hates you, it hated me first. Which is when you take a stand in Jesus or bring up sin, the. The people in the world will start gnashing their teeth at you because all of a sudden, through guilt or whatever the reason there, this is not going to be pleasant. So he gets down to verse 26 and then he says, well, when the counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. And then of course, in future podcasts we'll get to chapter 16. But I just wanted to read this. When he says in verse seven, but I tell you the truth, it is for your. You're good that I'm going away. Unless I go away, the counselor will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, the counselor, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin, which there's your word, Phil. And righteousness and judgment in regard to sin. Because men do not believe in me in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you cannot, where you can see me no longer. And in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world, which you made reference to, the evil one, now stands condemned. You're not going to get that little section in. In less than 10 seconds. You're not going to read that?

[Phil]

No.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Chapter 16, verse seven through 11. I'm going to tell you this. I've spent the better part of 30 years reading that and meditating on what he said there.

[Jason]

Well, I think it's interesting that Phil went to Galatians 5 earlier to talk about this because let me, let me say this first. Like you can have mental issues and not be a result of your sin. Like someone may have abused you and you may. So that's not what we're saying.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Or you have a chemical imbalance. Yeah, there's something physically, I think.

[Jason]

Yeah. What we're talking about is just the vast generalization to take everything that's sinful and put it into the camp of

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

psychiatric problems or counseling situations. I mean, I was in a Bible talk one time and this guy was having problems with his wife.

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[Phil]

payment of $45 for 3 month plan

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only.

[Phil]

Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

See full [e-mail] and this counselor speaks up who. Now, we're.

[Phil]

We're.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

We're here to talk about Jesus. We're believers. But he. I knew he was a counselor for a living. And he said, you know what I find is when you're arguing with your wife, because now he's going to give some counseling advice. You know, if you try to do it naked, that. That usually solves the problem. You try.

[Jason]

If you try to do what?

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Have the argument with your wife naked. Now, at first, everybody kind of chuckled, you know, and they were like, yeah. And then I just couldn't help it. I thought, well, it's been my experience that I can have just as good of an argument with clothes on or naked. I mean, clothes are optional when it comes to arguing with your wife. Because I thought, well, what a. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Because he was just looking for a little quick fix.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

You know, from his perspective, I mean, trust me, if my wife's mad, she care less whether I got clothes on or not. She's hot. Yeah. And so what I bring that up to say that it's more of a spiritual problem. And a lot of these people who are trying to fix their problems, they go to these counselors and they give them advice like that, which is just stupid.

[Jason]

It's behavior, because it's behavior modification. And that's not what Jesus is talking about here. That's not the Holy Spirit. That's why I love what Phil read. The contrast, the acts of the sinful nature, the opposite of that is the fruit of the Spirit. So love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self control. But it is worthy of note that the fruit is not fruit that we manufacture. It's his fruit, which is why the role of the Holy Spirit is so powerful. And so when you read the three things that the Spirit does in John 16, well, we'll say the three primary things, at least. He convicts the world about sin because we're sinful. And I equate that to our justification moment. When the Holy Spirit says, you're guilty in a court of law and the penalty is death, and you need to be forgiven. That's the Spirit that tells you that. And then you turn to Christ and you confess him as Lord, you're saved. You get the blood of Jesus. But he also says he convicts us about righteousness. But why? Because he says, I'm leaving. And I think what that Means is that it's easy. Jesus has been walking with these people. He's turning water into wine. He's saying, blind man see, you know, cripple man walk. It's very easy to do the right thing when you have the Son of God walking around with you everywhere you go. Right? That's easy. I can be righteous. But what he's leaving. So he says, but so he's coming in your sanctification as well. He's going to come and live in you, which is what all this is kind of leading up to.

[Phil]

And you and him.

[Jason]

And you and him. That's right. You're going to abide together.

[Phil]

You can't forget that. Because now look, I'm going to add to you, to the power of this. So you get to read these verses and you say, wait a minute. I gave you. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us. So that in him, John 15 verifies that we might become the righteousness of God by one sacrifice. Jesus, death on a cross. All these animals, bulls, goats, under the law of Moses, never took away one sin. Not big enough, not the right kind of blood. It took God himself. So, because by one sacrifice, I hope everybody understands this. On whether you're going to a worldly counselor or you're going to Jesus, by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever. Those who are being made holy. You strive for perfection, but you already are perfect because of your position in Jesus forever. You get in Jesus, you're going to be viewed as perfect. Think about somebody on drugs and they tell you they're going spiraling out of the control. Immorality is always in there, by the way. And you say, finally they make a decision. You mean to tell me I can be viewed by God as 100% flawlessly perfect because of my position in Christ and He in me, and I in Him. He's in me. Through his spirit, I will be viewed as perfect. Yeah. So you make it your goal to do what's right every time. Now watch. That's one. Here's another one. We proclaim him. They come to us, and as you say, well, what's the counseling? You point them to Jesus and say, repent. Turn from your wicked ways.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

And he's going to give you a counselor.

[Phil]

He's going to give you a counselor. You're going to have to.

[Jason]

The counselor.

[Phil]

The counselor. The counselor. Unlike me, I'm counseling. It's going to cost you about 200 bucks for this little set to here. But God's going to give you A counselor. Free. It's free of charge, by the way. Eternal life, that's free too. So health care, you know, paying you, that's, that's in it. But it's eternal. It's paid for, but it's not a government health care. This is eternal.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Pretty good system.

[Phil]

We proclaim him Jesus, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom so that, so that we may present listen everyone perfect in Christ. To this end, I labor, the Apostle Paul said, struggling with all his energy, who works in me, which so powerfully works in me. So the counselors work the Holy Spirit of God.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

That's Colossians 1:28.

[Phil]

Yeah, yeah. So if I'm viewed as perfect as a low down scoundrel, before I came to Jesus, a low down scoundrel, I mean, I broke moral laws. I was like a dog chasing his tail. And I meant to tell you all this the other day. I looked at my age, I looked at my age and I said, here I am, I'm 28. And I said, I never heard this story about the resurrection of the dead. Me being viewed as perfect. A sorry scoundrel like me. Are you kidding? So I'm weighing this before I make the decision to say, I'm all in. What struck me 45, 46 years later, today I'm seated here, and when I ask someone over and over and over and over, this keeps coming up. How old are you? You've told me you have a lot of problems and a lot of issues. How old are you? I'm telling y', all, I would say 80% of all the people I've converted, they were between the ages of 27, 28, and 31 to 32. Over and over and over and over.

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[Phil]

So the reason I only bring that up, I said, why is it that they all are in the same age group that I was in? But I think what it is, and to show you about the paths we choose when we're young and Foolish, when we're 18 or 19, we go down this road of sin and we build a track record without realizing it. You're building a track record how you walk. It's a record. And, man, by the time you go a decade in that thing, round and round and round and round, the drunkenness, the drugs, the immorality, the perversion, all of that, you put it all together and you say, I'm going around here. I'm in misery. You have a track record that you can look back at because you're 29 years old. So you look back and you say, when did I get on this path and end up here? That I'm talking to some kind of shrink that's trying to get inside my head to tell me what my problems are. Well, by that time, you've got a track record built, and there's no doubt about it, it's a terrible track record. And you say, I'll tell you what I'm fixed to do because of what I just heard. The possibility of escaping planet Earth alive and peace of mind while I'm here, I think I'm going to try this. Jesus. Now, that was my thinking at 28. And since that time, when I ask them their age, every one of them, they'll say, 27, 28, 31, 31, 32, 29, 30. They're all about that age. The vast majority of them, they were at that age group. I think it's because they have a track record and it ain't pretty. And they're saying, I'm fit to change the way I operate.

[Jason]

And I want to clarify something you said, too, because I meant to do this on the last podcast, because we got a couple of emails on this. When Phil says, I converted somebody, what he means is he shared the gospel with them. Obviously, the Spirit is doing the conversion.

[Phil]

Sure.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

And God brought them.

[Jason]

So we're just participating.

[Phil]

I'm not taking the credit, just saying I'm looking back and I'm looking at all these people who are, relatively speaking, you're same age.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Yeah, well, people hear that and they're like, well, that's a cult.

[Jason]

Yeah, that's not what we mean when we say that. That's the verbiage that kind of we use in our circle.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Well, the explanation of it is God uses flawed people even though he's made us perfect. Which is great point. That Colossians 1:28 29 is awesome because it says, to this end I labor. So he's laboring like I convert. And he was already perfect, struggling with all his energy, which is so powerfully. Which so powerfully works in me. So that was his point.

[Jason]

Yeah, we're just vehicles.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

We're vehicles.

[Jason]

And I think that's what he's saying with the spirit here.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

No doubt he's saying, but wouldn't you

[Phil]

agree that people with the vehicle of the Holy Spirit in them and they live their life on planet Earth, they get up because they realized, I don't think I can be good without God. Let's try him. So they get in Jesus and the Holy Spirit is given to them. And they look around after about. You start out, you'll be zigzagging left and right. That's the way I did. I was going like over here, back, forth, back.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Well, because it's hard to make the break.

[Phil]

Yeah, it was kind of like this wide swings at first, you know, evil, good. Evil, good. And finally, you know, I just kept on and I looked up after about a decade and I said, you're not the same guy. Yeah. You know, I look back and I said, good man. When's the last time I've been drunk and I thought, it's been six years since I've been drunk. It's been eight years. But you see, 10 years.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

I think you gotta somehow.

[Phil]

I said, this is doable.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

I think you gotta sum all this up though. Your original question. Why do they not bring up sin? Because they don't know the source. The sort sin to me, not as big as the source of sin, which James 3:16 defines, which is selfish ambition because we easily get the source on the other side, which is the Holy Spirit. So, I mean, we brought. I brought up those things about the dogs and I. You know, Zach, you had a good point. You know, if I'm in the little dog area, what we call my lair, well, that dog's not going to go out there and do that. Cause I'm standing there, or I'm sitting there, I'm sitting there watching him. Guess what? When I leave, you know what he's like. I just don't want to go. Selfishly, he doesn't want to go out there because it's raining. I'm not there. Look, God's not around because to, you know, from his perspective, I'm God. I control pain, freedom, luxury, food, all the essentials that he needs. I control it. And I think it's the same way what I would like to see counselors do. Because when you sit there, that story about your buddy, you know, that made me mad because he doesn't want to say what the problem is, because it won't come back. Because nobody wants to hear that, that nobody wants to Hear. You know what? You're the problem. You're making bad decision after bad decision. It's called sin.

[Phil]

Everyone needs.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

You don't want to hear that.

[Phil]

Everyone who is contemplating following Jesus. This is the biggest missed text in all of mankind, of every book that's ever been written. Solid food. You take the scriptures and you obey them. Solid food is for the mature who by constant use. This is something that you seldom hear in the religious world. Even they've trained themselves to distinguish good from evil. The first lesson, everybody has to realize. And the Spirit's there to help you with this, you say, because it's a. The road becomes a lot easier to walk on if you have constantly. Like the dog, you poop on the floor, you get your butt whipped. You say, what are you doing? You're helping him train himself to say, if you're going to take a poop, you need to get outside under some bushes.

[Jason]

Well, the language of helper is probably not even. I mean, it's even more. He is the source of Revelation.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Well, to go back to your Colossians,

[Phil]

one look between good and evil.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

But he says, to this end, I labor, struggling with all his energy. It's bigger than. He's not even.

[Jason]

It's not like I heard someone say one time that grace was. When you're climbing up the ladder and you get to that last rung to heaven, you're like, I just can't get there. And then the spirit and he gives you grace and he helps you the rest of the way.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

No, I just.

[Jason]

That's not it. Yeah, you can't even get on the ladder.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Look, I mean, you didn't even know there is a ladder.

[Jason]

Now. You don't.

[Phil]

That's right. But I just know this. You say, well, you know, these bull boys blowing smoke, a bunch of rednecks claiming you, who say, look, let me. Let me enlighten everybody. Yeah, let me enlighten everybody about something. Let's see, what time is it?

[Jason]

Well, I don't know.

[Phil]

Let my clock. 12 o'.

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Clock.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

I have no idea.

[Phil]

We're here midday. So we're here midday. You say, when did you start moving around this morning? I said, I got to moving around. Probably 30 minutes after daylight, I'm out there. I end up in the woods. We're working on bulldozers. I'm out there looking at my water. You say, so what are you trying to say here? I'm saying to everybody, it's already been about seven or eight hours. I'm here at 12 o' clock I got up at daylight. You say, has there been any sin committed yet? Any misstep? Now, there's been no missteps, you say. So you've been down there looking at bulldozers. They're working on that, you know, and you kind of pulled in there, brought a generator to them, and the guy's fixing the bulldozer. You went from there, checking your water, see what the water gonna do, you know, Dan, you ended up up here. Now I'm at this table. You say, so far today, have you sinned, violated the law, hurt somebody's feelings? Have you or you attacked anybody? No. Now it's all good. Everything's been good. You say, well, what about yesterday? Same thing. So the pat. I see a pattern that's developed in my own life after 45, 46 years, applying these scriptures. The pattern says, you can't be good without God. But with him, I've gone eight hours. So far, no sin yet. Feel like you might make it all day, might make it all week. Just get up and do what's right. Train yourself to know the difference between good and evil. If it's evil, no, I'm not having it. I've shown evil. I embrace good. Well, I've been doing it all day today. You say, everything good, everything good.

[Jason]

But you will fall.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

That's what people immediately always say.

[Phil]

But I'm just saying, people who say, well, no way I can do that because you're asking too much of. No, I'm not.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

But it's the Holy Spirit inside of you, leading you down that path. And when we do mess up, God is an interesting being. He doesn't go with past, present and future because he's eternal. He views everything at once. He knows our flaws, but he knew it before it happened.

[Phil]

But the evil one, Jace, comes along and says, you can't be good, good. You can't be good.

[Jason]

Well, I think that it's. It's kind of. We got to be careful how we frame that because it's. I don't think that what he's saying is like, it's not good in the sense of, like, keeping a record. I think what's happening with this text here is he's talking about that, the Spirit, and. And Also in Galatians 5, the spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost is going to change the desires of your heart. He's going to transform you. So it's not a. It's not this, oh, I can't do the wrong thing. I got to do the right thing, because that's another burden. When I hear that, I think that's another burden.

[Phil]

But, Zack, human beings will tell themselves and they'll belittle themselves so much that they don't appreciate when they're doing good. Look, this is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are. Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God. As a pattern, a walk. I'm in First John 3 and First John 1. He says, look, you're going to sin. I'm there to mediate for you. I'll remove them. Confess your sins to me. They're coming. And don't tell me you don't make mistakes from time to time. I'm just saying we take that and say, well, you can't be good all day or all week. Yeah, you can.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

Well, I think Zach's just saying it's not really the point. You can beat yourself up trying to never make a mistake.

[Phil]

Yeah, we.

[Unidentified Male Speaker (possibly a counselor or theologian)]

But we don't endorse making mistake. But that's why the source is what, either self or spirit. Are you led by yourself or you live by the spirit?

[Phil]

Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God. Neither is anyone who does not love his brother. You say so you love your brother and you make every attempt to do what. What's right. But you're not watching every little step you're taking. You're just living a lifestyle of being good. It's innate. It's. It's. And you've learned that from the scriptures.

[Jason]

Well, we've opened up another can of worms, but we're out of time today, so come back next time and we'll. We'll finish this conversation.

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