How Iron Man Saved Marvel: David Maisel Shares the Real Story with Sean Callagy

Summary

Unblinded with Sean Callagy

Episode: How Iron Man Saved Marvel: David Maisel Shares the Real Story with Sean Callagy

Guest: David Maisel (Founder of Marvel Studios, Creator of the Marvel Cinematic Universe)
Date: May 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode is a revealing, in-depth conversation between Sean Callagy and David Maisel, the mastermind behind Marvel Studios and the originator of the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU). Maisel shares the untold story of how Iron Man launched an unlikely franchise, what it took to reshape the business of Hollywood, and how the discipline of value discernment powers innovation in movies—and in life. They cover the odds Maisel overcame, the strategic moves that built Marvel's empire, artistic and business choices that changed film, and how to think like a creator at the intersection of art, money, and influence.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Turning Marvel Around: The Genesis of the MCU

• Marvel’s Dire Straits
  • Marvel was selling only about 5,000 Iron Man comics per month before the movies (12:33).
  • The company's value had cratered; Ike Perlmutter bought Marvel from bankruptcy for $30 million (19:33).
• The Big Vision
  • Studios then only licensed IP; film studios made the movies and kept most profits and all creative control (14:27).
  • Maisel’s breakthrough: Marvel should make its own movies and control the universe—no one else had tried this zero-based, asymmetrical business model.

Notable Quote

"Nobody wanted Thor or Captain America or this thing called Avengers... They could have spent a hundred thousand and blocked us from having Iron Man. Right? I don't make money unless you make money."
—David Maisel (00:12)

2. Getting the Crucial Yes

• Convincing Ike Perlmutter
  • Maisel pitched spending $100 million on a movie with only $5 million in the bank to a famously thrifty owner (25:08).
  • Initial meetings were flops—Perlmutter didn’t want Hollywood’s risky games or big spending.
  • Maisel’s winning deal: A tiny salary, paid only if Marvel made money, with stock options and zero penalty firing. Trump witnessed the agreement at Mar-a-Lago (27:07).

Notable Quote

"If he doesn’t get the yes, there’s no MCU. ...There’s no Avengers."
—Sean Callagy (00:00, 26:53)

"You can fire me at any time, whatever reason, no penalty."
—David Maisel (28:29)

3. Disrupting Hollywood’s Creative and Business Norms

• Why Start with Iron Man?
  • Conventional wisdom said to launch with The Avengers or a better-known hero, but Maisel wanted emotional connection; chose Iron Man “because of the man inside the suit” (44:37).
• Reinventing the Superhero Movie
  • Iron Man was made as a love story with only 10 minutes of action to appeal to a broad audience, not just comic fans (00:55, 42:51).
  • Robert Downey Jr.’s casting—despite his turbulent history—was based on authentic alignment with Tony Stark’s persona and taking a chance on real hunger (54:35).
  • Downey was allowed unique freedom: 1 hour/day improvisation on set yielded much of the film’s humor (41:53).

Notable Quotes

"What Warner Brothers missed is they saw a guy in a robot suit. ...They didn't see the man inside the suit."
—David Maisel (00:12, 44:37)

"Choosing Robert Downey Jr.—who just was in jail... he is Tony Stark."
—David Maisel (54:54)

4. Financial Mastery: Profit vs Box Office

• Strategic Control
  • Iron Man had a $109 million budget versus Dark Knight’s $225-230 million, no profit sharing for director or stars, and Marvel kept 100% equity (56:58).
  • Contrast: Dark Knight did $1B box office vs Iron Man’s $600M, but Iron Man was far more profitable for Marvel in real dollars.
  • Marvel kept all downstream rights—laying the foundation for the MCU’s expansion and economic flywheel (59:34).

Notable Quotes

"People still just report box office, not profitability... We made a significant amount more money [with Iron Man]... and we controlled [the universe]."
—David Maisel (59:34)

5. Innovation in Negotiation, Value, and Storytelling

• Emotional and Negotiation Intelligence
  • Success was rooted in deeply understanding the partner’s true motivators (“never try to sell money-spending to someone who hates risk”) (25:20).
  • Maisel's ability to blend analytics with creative vision—unusual in an industry divided between “suits” and “creatives.”
• Lessons from Broadway
  • “Open strong, close stronger.” Broadway taught Maisel the importance of audience engagement at the beginning and end for lasting impact (47:34, 48:51).

6. The Future of Cinematic Universes and Myth-making

• Five Ingredients for Worldwide Mythology (87:59)
  • Differentiation, identifiability, a natural universe, ownership of IP, and legacy that’s still undiscovered.
• Beyond Marvel
  • Maisel discusses building new mythologies: Angry Birds as an unexpected hit, and now Mythoverse—a mythology cinematic universe, starting with a Cupid and Psyche story (animated, musical, starring Justin Bieber) (82:29–85:44).
  • Raises the bar for new universes: must offer differentiation, visual signature, and IP control (71:56).

Notable Quotes

"It's a lot more difficult now [to create new universes]... There's so much competition for people's time."
—David Maisel (72:07)

"I think Greek and Roman mythology can be elevated as a universe... That's the other thing I'm working on: connecting those all together."
—David Maisel (75:59)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On risk & vision:

  "I've never made a movie. I've never created a studio. I've never raised money. And Ike, let's go build a studio."
  —Sean Callagy (23:46)

• On enduring skepticism:

  "There's an article outside my office from the New York Times in 2007, a year before Iron Man, all the reasons Marvel Studios would fail... I announced Marvel Studios on CNBC in 2004, and our stock went down for four years."
  —David Maisel (34:32)

• On integrity & winning:

  "At the end of the day, how you feel when you go to sleep at night and wake up in the morning is priceless."
  —David Maisel (52:45)

• On business and creativity:

  "I love both. And I was known because I came with my Harvard MBA... but creatively was where my passion was... I realized the only way I could do both... was to have my own studio and make myself chairman."
  —David Maisel (35:00)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–00:55: The MCU wouldn’t exist without Maisel convincing Perlmutter: the hardest “yes” ever.
• 12:33–15:17: Marvel’s tiny comics numbers; the licensing model and need to reinvent control.
• 19:33–20:43: The acquisition by Ike Perlmutter—Marvel bought for $30M, sold to Disney for $10B.
• 27:07–29:45: Maisel’s game-changing hire/on “free option”; Trump at the Mar-a-Lago meeting; Perlmutter’s resistance.
• 41:53–44:08: Why Iron Man (not Avengers); the importance of the “man in the suit”; Downey improvisation.
• 52:45: On not becoming 10% of a toxic Hollywood titan: “how you feel when you wake up… is priceless.”
• 56:41–61:29: Iron Man v. Dark Knight: the real lessons in profitability, not box office.
• 71:56–75:59: Can another universe be created today? Ingredients needed for new mythologies.
• 82:29–85:44: Mythoverse/Cupid project with Justin Bieber; importance of visual signature and casting.
• 87:59–90:45: The AI/summary “tribute” to Maisel’s journey and impact.

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Flow and Usefulness

The episode weaves together business acumen, creative ferocity, personal humility, and hard-won wisdom. Maisel’s journey is part Hollywood underdog tale, part masterclass in risk, value, negotiation, and integrity-driven influence. Whether you're a business builder, creator, or simply want to know how the MCU was born, this episode is a blueprint for seeing what others can't—and moving mountains to make it real.

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Further Highlights

• Lessons on negotiation, vision, and understanding people's motivators.
• The future: creating the next worldwide mythology (Mythoverse), and the unique challenges of launching new universes today.
• Deep admiration and acknowledgment between host and guest—Sean credits David’s approach as containing more to emulate than any past guest, including sports and business icons (91:33).

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Conclusion

David Maisel didn’t just bring Iron Man to the world—he redefined the rules of Hollywood, business, and mythmaking. This episode explores his thinking, his risks, and the strategy behind winning at the intersection of art, commerce, and culture. As Sean says:

"Every outcome is on the other side of an integrous, masterfully told story." (61:29)

For innovators, founders, storytellers, or anyone aiming to “see what others don’t,” this conversation is a modern playbook.

Transcript

[Sean Callagy]

If he doesn't get the yes, there's no mcu.

[David Maisel]

Which was the hardest yes I've ever gotten, right? In fact, I didn't get the yes.

[Sean Callagy]

They had 5 million in the bank. And David is talking, you're gonna spend 100 million for a guy that doesn't like spending money.

[David Maisel]

Nobody wanted Thor or Captain America or this thing called Avengers. You know, people would tell me Thor is in the public domain. You know, we don't need you for that. Or Avengers means some UK English spy series. They could have split, spent a hundred thousand and blocked us from having Iron Man. Right? I don't make money unless you make money. So give me stock options and market and then to close it. I said, and you can fire me at any time, whatever reason, no penalty. I announced Marvel Studios on CNBC in 2004, and our stock went down for four years. With iron man, we made it a love story with 10 minutes of action. I think that's what Warner Brothers missed, is they saw a guy in a robot suit. They saw a robot suit. They didn't see the man inside the suit.

[Sean Callagy]

The guy who's got the drug problem that woke up at his neighbor's child

[David Maisel]

daughter's room and was in jail.

[Sean Callagy]

This is Iron man, who's a comedian on top of it, not an action star. If we could welcome back to the unblinded stage for the second time, the founder of Marvel Studios, the creator of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, the one and only. Let's rise to our feet and welcome David Maisel. Let's hear for David, A man that I have the honor and privilege, the honor and privilege of now calling a friend. So thank you, sir. Much gratitude.

[David Maisel]

Absolutely. Thank you, my friend.

[Sean Callagy]

He even knows what drinks that Tink and Bella and Mike like to have from Starbucks. And it's always ready in his incredible studio and home and place and things. So, David, welcome back to the great state, New Jersey. It really is an honor to be here. How are you doing today, brother?

[David Maisel]

I'm doing great. It's a pleasure to be back, Sean. Last time we did this was back in October, right? So it's been almost six months, and so much has happened. I know with everything you're doing and things that I'm up to and

[Sean Callagy]

you,

[David Maisel]

Sean, was the first public speech that I ever did since selling Marvel. I resisted doing that and doing it with Sean and him making me feel so welcome and understanding the story and the interesting things to talk about and seeing the joy in everybody hearing where Marvel came from. It brought me A lot of joy. So I'm so happy to be back doing this. And you sort of gave birth to a new side hustle for me, which is.

[Sean Callagy]

And by the way, if you're happy to have David back, say yes. And so. And the side hustler recently took you to some far away parts of the globe with some pretty interesting people.

[David Maisel]

It's the most notable one was the Saudi government has a conference called fii, which is their big investor conference. And there's one in Riyadh, there's one in the States, and there's one in Europe. And they asked me to speak at their Miami event, which was about a month ago, five or six weeks ago. And it's, you know, it's the royal family, it's a lot of dignitaries that attend. You know, if there's capital like that, many people surface. And not surprisingly. And so I got there and they had me the last day at the end of the conference, which is normally not where you want to be because everyone's flying out to their next thing. And so I said, maybe I'll go the first day instead so people can talk to me in the hallways and things. And they said, no, no, stay. At the last day, there's a surprise. And what the surprise was is they announced that President Trump was going to close the conference. And so what that meant is him speaking at 5, that everyone had to be in their seats and through security at 3. And once they announced he's speaking, other people even showed up. And I was in one of five speakers right before him. And it was a group that was amazing. It was David Ellison, who just bought Warner Brothers with his father for close to 100 billion MBS, is the ruler of Saudi Arabia's cousin, who runs all the video game sector in Saudi Arabia, the head of FIFA with the World cup coming, Steve Witkoff, who's our negotiator for all these wars. And I'm missing somebody there and then me. And so what I thought was going to be a casual, fun talk became this very different formal talk, only for about 20 minutes, about creating new mythologies. Whether there could be a new worldwide mythology in today's age was the question that they wanted me to address. And so that was a great experience. It went well enough where I was invited to speak in June at their FII Europe, which is in Rome this year.

[Sean Callagy]

Wow.

[David Maisel]

Yeah.

[Sean Callagy]

How about. Let's hear for that. And so it is an honor to have had you here and to be a small, tiny salt particle in that journey of your impact. In speaking Coach Gallagher. Thank you. Thank you, my brother. And so I, I would love to talk to you. For 40 hours we've had the privilege of spending real time together. And this man is such a master. He is so brilliant. And that doesn't though appropriately describe him. What is he masterful at? So many things, but the dynamic of innovation, optimization, presence, storytelling, the understanding, his level five listening of people is remarkable. And so, and he has friends that make great pizza. So this like private room and pizza home, you know, out, out there has been truly delightful. And what I'd love you to comment on, David, because we're, we're going later tonight and of course there's amazingly diverse political viewpoints and we have already, you know, spoken into all of that to a degree. And we'll finish. So not from a political perspective, but how did you enjoy going to see Bruce Springsteen on this tour? Because, oh wow, a bunch of folks will be there with us tonight.

[David Maisel]

You're in for a treat. I've seen, I would say this, that I've seen him not as much as Michael here 25 times, but probably close to 20. And this is, was my favorite concert of all. And I think it was because he's sort of grown into, it's the same Bruce voice. You wouldn't never know. He's 77 or whatever his age is, but he has become even more strong like, and powerful in how he presents the songs. Clarence isn't there, but the band is amazing and the saxophonist is incredible. I think it might be someone that Clarence picked to replace him, his nephew. Okay, I could see that. And, and you know, all of Bruce's messages are as timely as ever today as they were back in the 70s and 80s, so it just resonated so much more. It's a special concert and he didn't, you know, he didn't have to do this concert. He announced it, you know, what, maybe two month tour basically because he really wanted to do it. He can feel it and we do

[Sean Callagy]

share and you know, I don't want to consume a lot of our time with this, David, but whether or not I agree with everything Bruce is saying, some of it, much of it, all of it, and or how he's saying it. What we advocate for so strongly in this space and certainly on the Sean Callagambly in the podcast, is for people's freedom to articulate what they believe in. And Bruce does it so utterly, masterfully and there's so many things and I'm curious to see the reactions of the folks here tonight and our certification partners that are joining us and how even if they disagree with where he stands politically, how can they appreciate his mastery in articulating what he believes in and how attractive how, how unifying. Because I'm really curious because there's, you know, again folks on all front.

[David Maisel]

Yeah, the thing I'd say to that is he, you, you'll hear him tonight. But the things he talks about are not really political. They're common, shared values of being an American. So things like intelligence and common sense and empathy, you know, things that shouldn't be politicized. They should just be traits that we all try to live in our lives as best as we can and what America stands for around the world a bit, you know. So as you said, when there's difference of opinions on details and on policies and things like that, there normally is a unifying agreement on trying to make everyone's life here better and safer and shared values that you just teach your kids and that we all would love to live up to. And finding that shared agreement is so and it's true in negotiations and building a business, there's always people who don't see your vision or they disagree with it even. And instead of walking away, you find that point of shared, shared thoughts or shared assumptions. And normally once that gets to that level, the connection becomes closer. And it doesn't always work, but it can sometimes, you know, work to whatever you're trying to achieve in that, that business transaction or what you need from somebody to get a yes.

[Sean Callagy]

Well, amen to that, brother. And we always honor source here. So and I think this is a great transition into a next section and at the beginning but the meaningful work that you did with Marvel before I do, I just want to honor Dan Fleischman. We don't know each other without Dan and Mike Vesuvio for being such an amazing friend and co creator and all the 100%. Thank you. Let's hear from Dan and Mike just

[David Maisel]

for

[Sean Callagy]

and then so as you're sharing this, what really landed for me, our discussion of Bruce is how it's not not what you had to begin to think about when you stepped into the world of Marvel, you know, and I believe correct if I'm wrong, that they were Marvel was selling 5,000 Iron man comics per month. Just think of what would if you would have thought the number Marvel was selling per month of Iron man when the Iron man before the Iron man movies are made, but just a few years before, if you would have thought it was a lot more than 5,000 comics a month. Say, yes, me too. I would. I would have. Somebody asked me, like, hey, how many Iron man comics a month you think Marvel was selling? I don't know. My gut reaction might have been 100,000amonth.

[David Maisel]

Right.

[Sean Callagy]

You know, something like that.

[David Maisel]

So the only thing that reached that level back then was X Men and Spider man because of the movies.

[Sean Callagy]

So. So you have this, this, this property, this ecosystem of 5,000amonth. And so obviously, if people reading Iron Man Comics monthly, they have a pretty deep love for Iron man and a pretty clear perspective on what Iron man should be to them. And. And now you're gonna decide what movie to make and you're stepping in, and you have to build something for Marvel. How do you select Iron Man? How do you take something that only 5,000 people per month are reading? Take this to make money. Honor these folks, not make them enemies. So. And I know we told a lot of this story before, but maybe let's start there, you know, or half a step back from there. Yeah, this is your job now. You're being brought in. You have an idea or it's about to be your job. Please, David, take us back.

[David Maisel]

Yeah, and I'll start with the point where, you know, there was a whole process that Sean and I discussed last time of, of where the idea came from, the mcu. You know, now the word universe, cinematic universe is used a lot. And. But that didn't exist back then, you know, and the studios made the movies, and if you owned ip, you licensed it to the studios, and they would spend the 200 million to make the movie, and they'd have full creative control and they'd keep 98% of the profits.

[Sean Callagy]

Can I just, like, make sure this is landing for everybody? So, David, am I hearing you correctly, that what would happen is. And this was Spider Man.

[David Maisel]

Yes. Spider man to Sony.

[Sean Callagy]

Yep.

[David Maisel]

And X Men to Fox.

[Sean Callagy]

Yeah. And I guess this X Men to Fox. And this would have also been in. On the D.C. side. This would have been the original Batman movie. I mean, DC wasn't making the Batman movie. Am I correct or not? Correct.

[David Maisel]

DC in the Dark Light trilogy.

[Sean Callagy]

Yeah, they.

[David Maisel]

They did make the movie.

[Sean Callagy]

I mean, going back to Michael Keaton, the original movie, was that a licensed.

[David Maisel]

No, no, they owned. Because Warner Brothers owns dc.

[Sean Callagy]

Got it.

[David Maisel]

So they were, you know, now Marvel, I sold to Disney. So it's similar to where DC was with Warner Brothers. There's the capabilities and capital were there

[Sean Callagy]

with Marvel, though, at that point, they're licensing out X Men. They're licensing out Spider Man. And what they were saying is they were gonna make relatively little money after all the things and they had very little creative control. Am I hearing that correctly?

[David Maisel]

Exactly. And, and because they would license to different studios, those properties were, were siloed in each of those studios. So you couldn't bring the characters together and create an Avengers movie or create a connected universe. And so the big vision was as a Marvel fan and as somebody who wanted to make big movies and somebody who wanted them to make money, that the way to do it would be to get the rights back as much as possible. Take the characters that had not been licensed at that time. Nobody wanted Thor or Captain America or this thing called Avengers. You know, people would tell me, Thor's in the public domain, you know, we don't need you for that. Or Avengers means some UK English spy series. You know, they didn't quite get it. And so that was great because I had those properties to work with. Iron man was actually at Warner brothers for about eight, nine years as a license deal for like $50,000 they paid and they never thought it was worthy to make it into a movie. Okay. And they didn't see it. People ask me about that, but they just let it sit there. So eventually they let the rights run out. Even after I announced Marvel Studios, they could have spent a hundred thousand and blocked us from having Iron Man. Right, they could have. You know, sometimes you want to play offense, sometimes you want to play defense. And if they had put on the defense hat for a while, they might think, oh, I don't really want to make an Iron man movie, but we'll delay David from having it for five years or 10 years, you know, and that probably would have been a smart chess move for them. But the, luckily they didn't and got it back. And then, you know, the, the idea of a comic book company making 100 million dollar plus movie was, was heresy at the time was no one, no one did that. And frankly, they don't still like Barbie is owned by Mattel, but they license it to Warner Brothers. So they didn't get much profit from the movie. They got, you know, they got toy sales, maybe a higher degree of Barbie sales that year or afterwards in the same way we get higher Spider man toy sales after a Sony movie. But the zero based thinking, which took a lot of work and studying, you know, up until when I was 32 at this time. So as you know, school and graduate school and almost any eight, nine years of working in consulting and then in Hollywood at the studio, Disney and the talent agencies soaking up information to get the inspiration, finally, to which was over a weekend that wait, wow. If Marvel controlled its characters, it's a natural universe. You get to know the characters. You want to see them in every movie. You want to stay involved with the plot. So if one movie works like Iron man, Instead of just two sequels, like most films, there's 100 sequels or quasi sequels. And that asymmetrical risk reward was incredibly attractive as a business. And incredibly, the idea of connecting the characters as a fan was incredibly attractive as a creative thing to do. And that all went into convincing a man named Mike Perlmutter to at least give me a shot right, at coming into Marvel, which was the hardest yes I've ever gotten. In fact, I didn't get the yes. In fact, my meeting.

[Sean Callagy]

Could you contextualize, who is Ike?

[David Maisel]

Ike Perlmutter at the time was already a billionaire. He's a tough Israeli guy from the Mossad war in 60, but he was a turnaround guy. He had famously bought Remington when it was bankrupt and turned it around, things like that. And he acquired Marvel in 1999 out of bankruptcy court for like $30 million.

[Sean Callagy]

Right.

[David Maisel]

So he had good vision on that, but he really cared about selling toys, and he doesn't like to spend money, and he's a very difficult guy to work with. But he and I fortunately have a great relationship, and it helps when you make somebody a lot of money. But it was a lot to get there. In fact, once I had the inspiration for Marvel doing its movies and just

[Sean Callagy]

so acquire for 30 million. And then.

[David Maisel]

Then he took a public again. And at the time I met him, it was about 100 million market cap. Got it on the back of the Spider man license and things like that,

[Sean Callagy]

toys 30 million to 100 million market cap, and then sold to Disney for 4 billion.

[David Maisel]

Yeah. Really? 10 billion. With that. With the stock.

[Sean Callagy]

With stock. 10 billion. 4 billion, cash.

[David Maisel]

Seven years later. Yeah. 10 million seven years later.

[Sean Callagy]

Can we hear it for that? Talk about asymmetric return. So, no, no.

[David Maisel]

I did speak to Bob Iger last week, and I introduced a friend to him.

[Sean Callagy]

Do you guys know Bob Iger? Is.

[David Maisel]

Yeah.

[Sean Callagy]

Yes. Who is Bob Iger?

[David Maisel]

He's the. The CEO of Disney. And he was actually my Boss back in 96, 97. So I knew him well. And I love Disney. Not as much as Sean, but close to Sean. And I do love Disney. And so when I decided to sell Marvel. Now we're fast forwarding. I didn't shop it to Any other studio. I just went right to Bob, had a secret meeting with him, and within an hour, we came up with a deal. And because he gave us stock, legally, we were a public company. You have to shop it to get the best price for shareholders. But what I learned is if you have something that's subjectively valued, like stock, the board can make a decision that that's the best thing to do. And having worked at Disney, I knew the stock at $25 was severely undervalued and that it was at least a double when the economy recovered in 2010. Now it's, you know, it's plateaued for the last 10 years, but it reached 200. Now it's at like, 110. So there was an arbitrage there, too. And it also allowed Ike to be liquid where he was illiquid. He owned 60% of Marvel, the public company. But all that being said, the funny story I was going to tell is I was at a museum gala, and I introduced a friend of mine to Bob, and I said, this is the man I sold my company to. And he said, well, actually, I stole it. I was like, geez, you don't have to say that.

[Sean Callagy]

But, I mean, just to let this land for a second company quite out of bankruptcy for 30 million, got to 100 million market cap, then sold for 10 billion. Like, that is innovative, optimized value multiplication. And in the beginning, how crazy did everybody think you were? You know, we hear the stories of Walt Disney and Disney's folly and making Snow White, and then Disney's crazy to build Disneyland, but people called you crazy as well.

[David Maisel]

Yeah, and it's. It's hard to fathom that now because it seems obvious, Right. With Marvel, looking back. But the only reason I got the chance to do this, in retrospect, is that it wasn't because of my resume at the time. I had never made a movie before. I was smart, had a good.

[Sean Callagy]

And imagine selling this. Yeah. I'm a Harvard mba, which is you, David. Correct. I've never made a movie before, but now I think you should create, like, Marvel Studios. And I've never created a studio either, so I've never made a movie. I've never created a studio.

[David Maisel]

Right.

[Sean Callagy]

And I never raised money. Never raised money. And Ike, you're this extremely masterful, difficult person who doesn't like to spend money, but let's go build a studio and then.

[David Maisel]

Exactly. And so I. He. Actually, my meeting with Ike, funny enough, was at Mar a Lago in 2003, and Ike was. And still is one of President Trump's two or three best friends, social friends. And I went to meet, have lunch with Ike, but a third person joined us for two hours, which was Donald Trump. And the reason he joined at the time was purely because he was about to do Apprentice and enter the Hollywood world. And he knew Ike had some young kid coming, talking about Hollywood. And so it was a pretty amazing lunch. And it was going nowhere. I pitched this. It was going nowhere. I didn't quite understand the perspective, which is so important to get a yes. Of where the person is coming from and their values and. And what their trigger points could be. I kept saying things that were repulsive to Ike, like, you're gonna spend money. You're gonna spend 100 million, even though you only have 5 million in the bank account. And.

[Sean Callagy]

Cause this is. Right. We're in the world of yes. Causing which. Yes. Innovation optimization. They had 5 million in the bank. And David is talking. You're gonna spend 100 million for a guy that doesn't like spending money.

[David Maisel]

Yes. You have to use both sides of the paper and reuse your paper clips and doesn't like Risk. Didn't want popcorn at the premiere of Iron Man. So anyways. But understanding your partner, understanding the person is so important in social, in your personal life and in business life. And I had not realized it wasn't very public at that point about Ike. He's become much more known figure because he became the second biggest owner of Disney and because of his friendship now with President Trump. So it was going nowhere. In fact, I was going backwards. And I kept talking about Hollywood, which rightfully nobody should trust. Right. Because you invest in Hollywood, your money's normally gone and there's games and there's a lot of people there with egos and a little bit of narcissistic type of attitudes. It's definitely a strange town. And so here comes a Hollywood person pitching on, risking money. It was just really not going anywhere. What I realized is, luckily, that I was dead in the water, so I threw out one last offer that he couldn't say no to. And Trump was witness to this. And to this day.

[Sean Callagy]

Is this a crazy story? If you like this is a crazy story, say yes. Like, if you've seen a Marvel movie, say yes. If he doesn't get the yes, there's no mcu. Yeah. There's no mcu.

[David Maisel]

Yeah. There's no Avengers, because he would have licensed the properties out over the next six months or a year. And those deals are in perpetuity unless the other party volunteers to give it back. So I, I said listen, just hire me.

[Sean Callagy]

If you've been to Disney Florida, there are no Marvel characters.

[David Maisel]

Right.

[Sean Callagy]

But there are in California because Marvel licensed the characters to Universal. Yes, east of the Mississippi you got.

[David Maisel]

And so John has the best memory of anyone I've ever met.

[Sean Callagy]

No, thank you. And so yeah, so when we went to, I took Selena, Disneyland Florida and she actually noticed this. So we were in, I'm sorry, Disneyland, California and we saw Spider man and she actually loves Spider man and we went this time to Disney World.

[David Maisel]

Yes.

[Sean Callagy]

And her cousin is a crazy Spider man fan. He was coming and she's like, Kevin's so excited to see Spider Man. I said, well honey, he's not in Disney World Florida. And she's like, why he's in Disneyland in California. And so I began to Discuss with my 4 year, 11 month and 30 day old the day before her birthday daughter licensing deals between studios and mentioned you. But yes, back to you.

[David Maisel]

And it's even worse because Universal's theme park right next to Disney World has it in Orlando. And so every time now Disney makes a Marvel movie, they're making people want to go to their competitors theme park. It's a weird thing. And so what I said to Ike is hire me, give me a chance to show you what I can do. I know he doesn't, at that point I picked up he doesn't want to pay money for things. So I said pay me a very small salary just so I can pay my rent and I don't make money unless you make money. So give me stock options and market and then to close it. I said and you can fire me at any time, whatever reason, no penalty. So none of this for cause. Not for cause. It was like he literally to this day says, I couldn't say no to that. I had a free option to look at you and I don't pay you unless you make me more wealthy and I can fire you. So that's how I got in. And he almost fired me at least eight times. Six years and I almost quit.

[Sean Callagy]

How soon was the first one like so you started?

[David Maisel]

It was probably within a month.

[Sean Callagy]

Was it paper clips and paper?

[David Maisel]

No, it would be, it would be my passion and tenacity and him wanting me to do have other priorities in the company than the studio which for the first year I, I took seriously and you know, realized I had to sort of earn my stripes. It was, my board of directors was a bunch of 70 and 80 year old turnaround guys you know bankruptcy guys. So and then. But I remember every board meeting I would raise the studio and the second time I almost got fired when it. When I was told don't ever talk about a movie studio again at a board meeting or you're never going to be invited again unless we have zero risk and all the upside which doesn't normally happen in business. Right. So that was. And then I scurried for a year to luckily there was a bond bubble in 2004 and so I got a deal with a for 525 million of debt financing. So we kept all the equity. That's unbelievable without with that great terms that I and the board can say no to. No non recourse, no collateral to speak of.

[Sean Callagy]

So we love movies, we love the power of story. But what you're hearing from David right now is how critically important it is to understand money and value.

[David Maisel]

Yeah.

[Sean Callagy]

And the innovative mastery of all the different ways to share and look at value. And if we're uncomfortable at these diverse areas of mastery, we're not going to achieve the things which is as a footnote for everybody. If that's not your mastery, you're not David. You're not. Not only a Harvard mba, Harvard didn't make David Harvard. I'm sure taught David some things. But this is a man who developed the muscle, the skill of discerning value, being creative which you're going to ask some questions about how, why but while it's not David yet in your pocket, Athena, everybody out here you can certainly masterfully up level where you are to begin to think of like hey if I was David Maisel and I'm looking at this thing through the prism of Marvel, what are 10 different ways I could assess this ecosystem merger to create unique shares of value? If these people don't want to write a check and I really want this to happen or if they should write a check and they're not seeing it, how can we communicate about it? Use the tools that way. Is that landing? If it is, say yes. Okay, so back to you Dave. And what I'd love to get to in a few minutes if you wouldn't mind is a powerful question about all of this. I'd love you to finish this point but about how much you might be undervaluing yourself in some of this because something dawned on me and let me go to it and then we can go back if we need to. It's this. So you took this property, this what you saw to be a potential cinematic universe. But I wonder and has anybody ever asked this question, could you have taken any number of properties and done this? Like, how much of this was your mastery as visionary of the complete cinematic universe? And what you then did once you made that decision, like, we're gonna take this and make it a cinematic universe? Because Tony Stark in the Iron man comics wasn't Robert Downey Jr. You did that. And I didn't think the last time we spoke, and I.

[David Maisel]

And Robert.

[Sean Callagy]

And Robert. Right. And Robert.

[David Maisel]

Right.

[Sean Callagy]

And, you know, Pepper wasn't Gwyneth Paltrow. Right. And so. And I know you're an incredibly humble man, and I think you're at times a falsely modest man, meaning you diminish your accomplishments. But it just dawned on me. Yeah, like, that was really interesting, but it was so interesting that it was in bankruptcy. The Marvel and it.

[David Maisel]

And Sean knows. There's an article right outside my office from the New York Times in 2007, a year before Iron man came out, out, talking about all the reasons Marvel Studios would fail. And so I leave that right by my office to remind me of that era. In fact, I announced Marvel Studios on CNBC in 2004, and our stock went down for four years.

[Sean Callagy]

How long? How long? How long?

[David Maisel]

Yes, and it was worse for me because as I mentioned, all my upside was stock options that were now under market for four years. So. And. But, you know, Ike and I talked about this, and once I started showing what I could do and he got confidence, he ended up buying back a third of the company at that cheap price, which was very valuable when we sold it to Disney. So it was taking lemonade and making lemons from it. You know, having faith in situation instead of getting depressed if your stock goes down. If you really believe in the fundamentals of an investment, that's the time like Warren Buffett would say, where you buy it on sale from where it was. And so we bought back Marvel stock on sale. But to your question, it's a really good one, Sean. And I think. I don't believe any group of ip, no matter how talented the producer or the visionary is, can become what Marvel became a cinematic universe. There's elements that need to be in it. And I like to combine analytics with creativity. And this is important point, because in my specter of Hollywood, you as a Harvard mba, you are viewed as the suit, as the business. And if you talk creative, you're out of your arena. And if you're a creative person and you talk about business, you're like diminishing your creative magic that people might Trust in you. I love both. And I was known because I came with my Harvard MBA and I got my first job because of that, with Mike Ovitz as that guy. Right, the business guy. And in fact, when I was at Disney, I was with Kevin Mayer, our mutual friend in corporate development and strategic planning. Right. And I, I knew that creatively was merely where my passion was. And the only way I could do both analytics and creative was to have my own studio and make myself chairman. So the reason I had the thought to do Marvel Studios was I wanted to solve that puzzle. And then secondly, I knew I could try to become studio chairman. They're the only people that can be whatever they want to do because they're the boss. And I could work my way up one of the six studios, but that would take 20 years. And more importantly, I would have lost my soul. I would have had to become a different person. And Marvel was a cocoon for me where I had my, you know, I could play as studio chairman and not change the playfulness and the, the way I wanted to be personality wise. So when I think about universes, Marvel, I didn't have to look at a second one because I, I just instinctively saw, saw they live in the same universe in the comics. These characters are so deep in terms of who they are, even outside of being superheroes, that there was. And it was a combination that the movies would be new to most, 99% of the world. So they discover it. And discovery is so enjoyable for people they discover with their friends or their kids or their parents. But there's a legacy that it's built on so that people realize, wow, there's like gravitas to it and stuff I can geek out on and go into. So it had that, that great combination of legacy, but still new to people and a natural universe. And, you know, after Marvel, I quickly found something else I thought could be not a universe, but elevate IP to a point that people would be surprised by. And that was with all things Angry Birds. And at the time, it was just those dots on the screen and went to the owners and they were about to license the movie. I said, no, no, we'll make it. And they had so much cash from the game that raising money there was easy. They just had treasury cash to use for about 75 million. And it was fun to invent a mythology. And everyone thought that movie was going to fail because in 2016 when it came out, Angry Birds had collapsed in popularity. They didn't navigate going from paid games to free Games in the way other competitors did and the brand wasn't cool anymore. And so that for me was gratifying because it was another surprise and doing it again. But then after 2016 and actually after the sale of Marvel, I got approached with everything, you know, can you help us with this to become a universe? And, and said no to everything because it didn't meet what I really thought it would be. And then I was fortunate, which we can get into later, to find something that James Cameron really loved and my favorite comic book artist who I collected. And when James Cameron stepped aside, I was able to grab it. And that's what I'm working on now. So you have to have the fundamental pieces in place, but then it's a lot of decisions and a lot of vision that have to be done. It's not as complicated as Elon's spaceships, which, you know, he, he famously talks about that there's like 20,000 things that have to go right on any space launch and, or, and if one of them doesn't, the whole thing falls apart. And you know, it's not as complicated as that. But to go from the IP to something that's a new worldwide mythology or something that people really love in that deep way requires a lot, a lot of decisions. And one of them you raised earlier, like, how do you take something that's got dedicated fans and make them happy at the same time? Bring it to the world. And so with Iron man, we made it a love story with 10 minutes of action. And it was like an old fashioned love story where like from the 50s where two people love each other but they won't admit it, you know, Robert Downey and Gwyneth Paltrow, and you're an audience saying kiss already, you know, and, and they, and they don't. And adding in humor with letting. We made it, I made a decision that had really never been done in Hollywood. You freeze a script, you freeze a script before you shoot the movie. Because every day on a live action movie is four or five hundred thousand dollars. And so if you miss the day, you have to spend another half a million. And there's unions, there's rules. And so you don't want, you want people changing dialogue because that could screw things up. But I left an hour a day in the schedule for Robert to improvise. And I'd say at least half of the comedy in Iron man came out of him riffing and saying funny things. It was dangerous because once an actor starts doing that, they keep wanting to do that. And you could miss your days unless their lines get taken. You know.

[Sean Callagy]

So Deepak, I asked this, so how you know in that frame you have Iron man, you have these properties and you're making a superhero movie that you turn into a love story with 10 minutes of action.

[David Maisel]

Right. I could only afford 10 minutes as well. That made it easier.

[Sean Callagy]

So. But now in this, this conversation of innovation optimization, how do you decide to do that? You know, what, what was it? You know, if 100 people look at Iron man in the comics, they're not a million people look at Iron man, the comics, they're not making the movie you made.

[David Maisel]

Right.

[Sean Callagy]

And this is one of the greatest superhero movies ever made by so many critical reviews, financial success, all of it. How do you get to that?

[David Maisel]

And I'll get in a second. There's a question before that, which is why Iron man is the first movie. And that was also I'm proud of as a vision because a lot of people recommended you have one shot and that go with Avengers, go with your biggest commercial property and not rely on just one superhero. You know, bring everyone together. Then some people will like Iron man, some people like Thor, you know, you

[Sean Callagy]

attract more people and forgive for keep jumping in. I'm just like want to really contextualize. So what I'm hearing you say and what you're hearing David say, I believe is that he opted not to go with the ecosystem at Marvel of Avengers with 100,000 people reading monthly, but one with 1:5,000. And this is landing on me. I can't even imagine the feedback you were getting for that.

[David Maisel]

Oh, we had many debates internally. Yeah, many debates with the board and with my team. But the feeling was number was best introduce the characters in their own movies so that you have two hours to get to know them rather than if they're in a two hour movie together. You maybe have 15 minutes with each of them. Really. And so if people fell in love with Tony Stark, with, with Thor, with Captain America, with Hulk, then you bring them together in the Avengers. There's so much more ties to the customer and you're giving them something to look forward to. They love the characters individually. The risk with that is if Iron man failed, we're not sitting here today. So it was a, you know, it was easier for me because I, I knew that my mother, my girlfriend at the time, they would not go see just a regular superhero movie, you know, comics movie. So. But I knew Tony Stark was such an interesting character outside of the suit of armor and think, I think that's what Warner Brothers missed is they saw a guy in a robot suit. They saw a robot suit. They didn't see the man inside the suit. And it's the man inside the suit, which was so, so important and such a compelling story. And so we went with Iron Man. And then in making these decisions about how to both show the movie and market the movie and the casting, that's where, when you talk about instinct and combining with when you're focused on something that you're passionate about and you don't deviate, somehow you get so much information because you're looking at everything from the prism of what your goal is. And so when I quit McKinsey and came to Hollywood, all I did for the next six, seven years was think about how to make another Star Wars. Right. And that's what inspired me. And. And how can I do it in a way that wasn't just three movies at the time, but that could be many, many movies, and I would just soak all that information up. You know, little things. Like, I was able to do a Broadway show before I did Marvel, and I had a lot of success. I won the Tony Award for best musical in 1999 for my first Broadway show.

[Sean Callagy]

And what is a Harvard MBA winning Tony Awards? Creating the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Right. And then taking a video game that was incredibly popular, then failed, and turning it into an incredibly commercially successful movie. Angry Birds. And there's like. And much more.

[David Maisel]

Yeah. And one of the things I learned from Broadway, Broadway is a great medium because you take it on the road outside of New York. We went to Boston, we went to Chicago, we went to la. And you're changing the show every night and you're seeing the audience reaction right away. Right. And the reviewers have a pact, which I guess isn't legally binding, that they won't review the movie until you say it's opening night in New York. So you even have another month or two in New York to fine tune the show before the powerful reviewers come in. And I realized halfway through this road trip with the show that the beginning had to be amazing and the end had to be incredible. So everything in between has to be good. But what people, if they don't feel into it, if you don't open their minds to their experience in the beginning, and if you don't close with something that causes them to literally glee with excitement as they're leaving the theater, you're missing a huge opportunity. So when I went into Iron Man, I really worked on the first scene and the last Scene and you know, we have first seen he gets blown up. So there's a dramatic thing that happens.

[Sean Callagy]

How do you know that? I mean, I couldn't agree more. But how did you know that?

[David Maisel]

It was, it was observation and testing combined with then thinking through psychology, why that would be the case. And I realized it's the case with everything. You meet somebody new. If the first couple minutes are just person's head down and nothing happening, it's hard to recover from that. And it's always good to end with something. Even all of us go into long business meetings and you know, it could be two hours long or an hour long with somebody and it can get into topics and have a different energy flow. But then at the end, if you're like full of energy and talking about, you know, referring back to things that they said, showing them that you listened and seeing them as a person and talking about future things, that's what people remember. And so it's experience testing, trying to understand why and then trying to. And that creates what sometimes people call instinct. Like when people ask me, why did you have the vision for Marvel when no one else had it? I don't really, I can't really answer that. But it wasn't just like I sat an ivory tower and the idea popped in my head. I had worked so hard learning the industry and that gave me a better chance to have the vision. And the things that people would say are very hard to get. And then once you have the vision, that tenacity to stay with it and make sure you don't get distracted or give it up too soon here I knew people would be walking into Iron Man. I felt thinking, another superhero movie. How's this going to be different? You know, who is this? Marvel Studios making their own movie. So when we started with AC DC back in Black and that rock and roll was going and the people just had. They hadn't heard that before in the beginning of a movie. And then we ended, if you remember, with him surprising everybody, including comic fans where Tony Stark never says he's Iron man, he keeps the Iron Man's his like bodyguard. He says, I am Iron Man. And that just threw everyone for a loop. And then we end with Ozzy Osbourne, I am Iron man. And people are dancing out of the theater. And. And then we gave a post credit scene too with Sam Jackson saying the Avengers Initiative. That was just inspiration that Kevin Feige, my president of production had actually, after we finished shooting and we hadn't planned it and we had to call all the actors back for a half a day and shoot that scene. And that was the birth of net, which is now common with a lot of films. You know, having some space special scene at the end. So it's a. It's a. I'm very proud of the vision and it's been fun to replicate it. Broadway was another sort of early version of that to fine tune that show. We were an underdog there too, for. For best musical that year. I never thought it would win that, but.

[Sean Callagy]

And which show was that, David?

[David Maisel]

It was a show called Fosse, which is Bob Fosse's great choreographer and it was his life.

[Sean Callagy]

Told how cool was David. Make the sound of how cool David is. It's crazy. Do you ever like wake up, be like, I'm cool?

[David Maisel]

That's why I love sitting here with you, Sean. It gives me. The. I told this to Sean. I'm not going to mention names here, but a very prominent Hollywood famous titan producer who's a very tough man, is known for losing his temper and being a bit of a. No better word to say than asshole at times. He got to know me and he would say to me, david, you're you. So don't be 100% me, but try to be 10% me. And it's. I'm happy I was able to achieve what I did without becoming that. Because it's at the end of the day, how you feel when you go to sleep at night and wake up in the morning is priceless. But the. Regarding Fosse, if you haven't seen a movie called all that Jazz, check it out. And that was the inspiration for that show. And yeah, it's a very good question. There's so many decisions that had to get made. The casting of Robert, who had just been in jail a year and a half ago for very heavy drug usage. He even woke up in his neighbor's, one of their bedrooms one night, I

[Sean Callagy]

think his neighbor's child bedroom.

[David Maisel]

Yeah, I was gonna say.

[Sean Callagy]

I'll say imagine. Imagine going to all these people again. Don't like to spend money, don't like risk, you know. Yeah. The guy who's got the drug problem that woke up at his neighbor's like

[David Maisel]

child daughter's room and was in jail

[Sean Callagy]

and is in jail. This is Iron Man.

[David Maisel]

Yeah.

[Sean Callagy]

Who's a comedian on top of it. Not an action star like dude, like. And what was it about?

[David Maisel]

You know, it was. It was seen a movie called Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. And if you watch that film he did before Iron man, you See the glimmers of Tony Stark in that character. And, and then knowing that Robert, who had won an Academy Award for I think Chaplin.

[Sean Callagy]

Yeah.

[David Maisel]

That having an Academy Award winner in a superhero movie would create an open mind with people like, why is he doing that? You know, I gotta check it out. But also, I knew that also Robert is. I like actors that are authentically playing roles that fit their life and he is Tony Stark. I mean, he's a brilliant guy. He's cocky as hell. He's the kind of guy that every man wants to be best friends with and, and most women want to marry, you know, and he, you know, he's a, the, the jerk that you love no matter what, you know, and that's who he is till he has some bit of a redemption as the movies progress. And so, and I saw the passion in his eyes and he was hungry because he had not really had a commercial success, you know, and so he was going to give everything to it. And it made it easier that he would take very little money because, you know, I promised he'd make money on the sequels and he's now the highest paid actor over the past 15 years.

[Sean Callagy]

Integrity. Right? So it's not. So with David saying, it's not that he's like, yeah, I took advantage of him. No, no. Like everybody won. Yes, like everybody won huge. And another remarkable piece of this story, and this is value discernment innovation optimization. The magic of. Yes. Call pausing. Are you receiving value from this conversation, team? Okay, so how about this, if you mind speaking into, because we've had this conversation, David is the profitability of Iron man versus the Dark Knight. Movies that were very successful.

[David Maisel]

Y.

[Sean Callagy]

Right. Maybe even out grossed. But could you share some of that? So not only do you have this beautiful creativity, but it's how do you make money doing it? And again, Robert Downey Jr. Won. Like people won all over the place. But watch this, please.

[David Maisel]

I am also very competitive. So when I'm running Marvel, I wanted to really win. And to show you how delusional this thinking was, even my board had no faith in the Iron man movie the day it opens. So we had a board meeting in la, which was the first one ever. Marvel's New York based. And the chairman of the board came up to me and said, Ike wants you to know that if the movie doesn't do well, it's okay, we'll make money on the toys. And the board has voted that if the movie breaks even, you get a half a million dollar bonus. So their bar was Breaking even. Right. Which was not a high bar in this situation. But, Michael, what were you thinking and

[Sean Callagy]

feeling in that moment?

[David Maisel]

I was thinking, yeah, thank you. I'm gonna go spend it. No, it was a combination. It was like, really, you don't have the trust in it to. Thank you for that. To. It's sort of charming. Like that's. That they thought about that, right? That they thought about. It was a very human touch, like trying to calm. To set my expectations. It was. Most boards don't necessarily think about that too much. So it was a funny element. And the. My goal was to beat D.C. and I love comics, by the way. I'm a big DC fan too. But at the time, they were my competition and I wanted to. I was very afraid of trying to get surmount them. And I wanted to beat Dark Knight, but we didn't. Iron man did like 600 million and change. And Dark Knight, which was a great movie. Chris Nolan, Christian Bale did over a billion. However, most people look at the wrong information in things and asking what's the real bottom line? You can get distracted by sound bites or box office numbers, which people still just report box office, not profitability. But if you look at the numbers, they did a billion plus. We did 600 million, roughly. They spent 200 and I think 25 or 30 million on Dark Knight. We spent 109 million.

[Sean Callagy]

But wait, there's more.

[David Maisel]

Yeah. Third, second, they gave 30% gross, meaning off the top of the revenues. 30% independent of profitability went to the director and actor, 15% to Christian Chris. Christian Bale, and 15% to Chris Nolan. I gave 0% to my actors or my director for Iron Man. And then to make it worse, I kept 100% of the equity. So we had 100% of the upside. DC, which I still don't understand why, sold off half of Batman to a essentially financing entity called Legendary Studios for cost. You know, and so you just do the math on those three things. We made a significant amount more money on that, on the movie. And then we also. I did it. And we did it in a way where we controlled Marvel, controlled the property. So we could make Iron man again quicker. We could do whatever we want. We didn't have a director who was final cut. They say who's got the final say on a movie. And normally if the movie does well, a final say on how the characters are used. So in our case, we had a complete freedom to use the characters, which became the MCU in D.C. case they got delayed many years trying to Keep Chris Nolan part of the family, understandably. And that delayed when they were able to do Justice League and things like that. So it gave us more time to build our base. So a lot of those things, I still wanted to win the box office thing, but because then I'd go out the next week and somebody would say, they killed you at the box office and say, yeah, but. And no one really wanted to listen to all the butts at the time.

[Sean Callagy]

So my takeaway for everybody out there is David is focused not only on the magic of the storytelling and arc like lessons for the moment is we all talk about the power of storytelling. So if anybody in this room is listening to this or anybody's listening to the podcast, the prism of like, okay, cool, like made movies. Great storyteller. We all need to be great storytellers. Every ecosystem merger, every great sale is on the other side of an integrous, masterfully told story. If that's landing, please say yes. And all yeses are not creating created equally. David is in the micro, micro distinctive detail of masterfully creating outcomes that were economically profitable, that created lever 5 disposable income, massively profitable ventures. This man wins. He's not just a creative master, he's both. He's a value driven, discernment integris master. Heck, they sold it for 10 billion. The guy that bought it for 10 billion, Bob Iger, says, thanks, David, I stole it from you. Now, I don't know that's the case. I don't think it was stolen, but it was a fair deal where Disney won and David and Marvel.

[David Maisel]

Sean, I agree with that. I think that was my perspective. You know, you want. Life is long. You want to have a reputation that if someone makes a deal with you, it pays off for them. And so you don't ask, or at least I didn't ask for everything. And it. I'm proud that he said that because

[Sean Callagy]

it, you know, integrity. Let's hear for David. Can I please. I cut you off. Please finish.

[David Maisel]

Oh, the last thing I'd say, I guess is the stuff you talked about in terms of being focused on the details from the business spectrum, from a zero based approach to a business like I was doing with Hollywood, to, you know, dealing with people and getting a yes or at least a chance from them. You know, we also had fun creatively with that. And it was. I had a great. Kevin Feige, who runs the company now, is my, my president of production. I was his boss and I recognize, I'm really proud of recognizing his talent because he was just a junior kid in the hallways when I got there and Ike had to support me without getting into details about changing some of the personnel at Marvel. And so I needed a new. I was elevated to chairman and I needed a president of production and I, I did a battlefield promotion of Kevin and when I sold the company put him in charge to run it so I could do other things. And he's done a great job over the past decade. Plus but he and I would look at every second of the movie and how to plus it was our term. There's got to be a way to plus it. We never would pat ourselves on the back and look thought would be like what can we do? And and just had a blast with. You know there's a cave sequence in Iron man if you watch it again where he's in that cave with one other guy and that's where he builds the first suit. That scene is almost 20 minutes long in the movie. And you know, we looked at a 1 minute version, a 5 minute version, a 10 minute version, a 15 minute, 20 minute. Like we tried all these things out to see what was better and we wanted to make it less so the movie wouldn't be so long. But that, you know, that felt like the best way to do it. When the reveal the Iron man suit was a big decision and we had a lot of disagreements with people. People said you need to show it in the first half hour. You know, people don't want to wait an hour to see it but we don't reveal it till pretty much the into Act 2. And that was a risk but we felt at the time that, and I strongly felt this, that the first act of Iron man is the only place where you see Robert Downey, you see Tony Stark before he's Iron man in all his, his proud and unproud things. And that's the chance for people to connect with Tony Stark. And if we don't have that connection, we don't have the foundation for the rest of the years and years of the MCU and, and that people wouldn't leave the theater. And one of the nice things about theaters is very rarely do people get up and leave. So whether they like it or not, they're going to see the Iron man suit a little bit later. And at that point they've been looking forward to it. It's even more exciting because they had to wait, you know, and so decisions like that we were equally sort of very detail focused on and that's the

[Sean Callagy]

same thing for your influence all the conversation you're having out there. And is it okay, Dave, if I ask a question of the audiences, too? And there's two other quick categories I want to touch on, please. So I think this has some relevance and fun for a conversation Dave and I were having. Is anybody here a Batman fan? If you are, say yes. Okay. And only please weigh in on this if you have, like, familiarity with what I'm sharing. Right. So who is your favorite Batman actor? Don't say it. A, Don't. Please don't answer yet. A, Michael Keaton. B, Val Kilmer. C, what's not saying? A, Michael Keaton. B, Christian Bale. C, Ben Affleck. And D, who is the. Forgive me, the curtain of the current and the new Robert Paxton. Right.

[David Maisel]

So. And famously? George Clooney for one.

[Sean Callagy]

Oh, thank you. George Clooney. So let's go. A, Michael Keaton. B is going to be George Clooney. C is going to be Christian Bale. D, Ben Affleck and E, Robert Paxton.

[David Maisel]

And.

[Sean Callagy]

Well, we're not going to go with Adam West. Thank you. We're not going to go with Adam west for a different reason. Talking about people that played him in the movies. But yes, of course, Adam West. So just think about it for a second. Don't say anything like who? If you're gonna see another Batman movie, who would you want to play Batman in it? Those are your choices. I'm gonna go one at a time. If it is Michael Keaton, say yes. Okay. If it is. And. And this is. You only answer if you are a fan of Batman movies, not just a fan of Michael Keaton. So a fan of Batman movies. One more time. Who? A, Michael Keaton. Okay. B, George Clooney. C, Christian Bale. D, Ben Affleck, E, Robert Paxton.

[David Maisel]

Christian Biel won by a lot. Yeah, there was one loud one person for Ben Affleck. I heard. Very passionate fan.

[Sean Callagy]

So now let's go by show of hands, how many people? Michael Keaton. Okay. How many people? B, George Clooney. How many people? C, Christian Bale. How many people? D, Ben Affleck. And who. Who's the one person? Thank you, Silveria. Yes. Yeah. You're strange, but thank you. And E, Robert Paxton. So what. What percentage does Christian bail?

[David Maisel]

Oh, I'd say 70% at least. Maybe 75. 80.

[Sean Callagy]

Yeah, there you go. So why did I ask that? Who knows? We'll see. So,

[David Maisel]

yeah, it does show the. You know, we see that same connection at Marvel to the OG actors. You know, people fell in love, not just With Thor, but with Chris Hemsworth, not just with Captain America, but Chris Evans, obviously not just with Iron man, but Tony Stark and. And Robert Downey, Scarlett Johansson. You can go on and on. Mark Ruffalo. And it's now well over a decade since their first movies, but that's what people want to see and that's what brings them good feelings. And that's why you'll see not just all of them back in the next Avengers in December, which is going to be amazing. But also now that Disney bought Fox, we have X Men back in the family. Yeah. And that's exciting. And we're bringing back all the original X Men cast, basically, you know, from the first movies. So they're all a bit older now, but, you know, things can still get done.

[Sean Callagy]

It was interesting, right, David? Interesting is. Was the number two choice, Michael Keaton was that.

[David Maisel]

It was, yeah.

[Sean Callagy]

And so that would lend to your primacy conversation. Right. He's the first person that played Batman on the big screen.

[David Maisel]

Yeah.

[Sean Callagy]

And what percentage of the. The audience was Michael Keaton, would you say?

[David Maisel]

All right, I'd say it was almost the remaining. Besides one. Ben Affleck. No, George. Sorry, George.

[Sean Callagy]

Maybe 15. 15, 20%, something like that. Yeah, yeah. So that. Yeah. And that's to David's point. Beautiful. So now the question was asked of you, can there be another cinematic universe and what's different? Why is it different? Why is it more challenging? Please, sir.

[David Maisel]

It's it that. That. And as Sean's referring to, that was the question I was asked to speak at. At the Saudi Summit.

[Sean Callagy]

Yes.

[David Maisel]

Especially since it was a global audience. Their question was, can there be another worldwide mythology, Mythology like Marvel? Because one of the things I realized at that conference, talking to the Saudi royal family, they were all obsessed with Marvel and Princess Rima, who's the ambassador from Saudi to the U.S. an amazing woman. You know, she had her son and daughter there and you could tell how much they shared the Marvel fandom together. And it really went across all geographic boundaries and. And everything else. And they even said mbs, who's obviously the ruler of Saudi Arabia, is a Marvel fanatic. And that really touched me. And that's why they called it worldwide mythology. To your question, it's possible, but I think it's a lot more difficult now because it wasn't easy with Iron Man. But now there's even more competition for people's time. You know, there's more social media, there's a emergence of TikTok and YouTube. There's the AI happening and people playing with AI and creating content of their own. There's games. There's so much that's distracting for people in their lives. They're streaming with so much content that didn't exist back then. So the bar is higher. And to surpass that bar, it has to be something that has four or five ingredients. It has to be something that is differentiated from what else is out there. You know, so another live action, a superhero movie with costumes and capes and so on. Difficult. It has to be differentiated in terms of energy and themes and the way it's presented. Two, it has to be very easily identifiable to people because they have such short attention spans that it's part of a universe and these things are connected. So the visual look, for example, probably has to be signature for that property. Third, it has to be a natural universe. People have tried to add the word verse to everything, right? So monster verse or Transformers verse. And Transformers is a great series. Series, but it's a series of movies. It's not necessarily a universe yet. And then there's, you know, and there hasn't been one since Marvel. DC has tried many times and would have a great movie or two, and then a bunch of others that didn't quite work. And so, you know, and there hasn't really been anything yet to. To rival Marvel or come close to that. So you need to have something that's a natural universe, something that you can make great stories with, something that you can elevate and something where you own the ip. And I think IP intellectual property has got to be at the core of it. And ideally legacy intellectual property that I, like I said, is still new to most of the world to be discovered, and that's hard to find. And, you know, I. I think that D.C. has a chance, a good chance now to do it under David Ellison, both because he's very dedicated, he's sort of one of us in terms of the love of these characters. And he also is an owner operator. He's on top of every detail the way I was. It's amazing what having equity and ownership does to your attention span. And. And third, because it's new ownership, I think the fans like myself will give it an open mind, you know, and so if they execute on that, it could.

[Sean Callagy]

And this is the new ownership of Warner Brothers.

[David Maisel]

Yeah, exactly. Assuming that deal closes, which still has few months to go and regulations to get through. But it looks. I think it looks good for them. And the second, if I had to say, maybe is something from the video game sector, but that's difficult because a lot of video games are very violent, you know, so you can't make it R rated universe, you know, that shuts out, you know, all the kids and the ability to take, you know, your child to it. So it would have to be a video game that is, is less violent and also has depth of characters. That's not force. Most video games don't have a huge depth to the characters in terms of personality and so on. But they have such attention now and such nostalgia value that I think something could come from that. There's been some big successes recently like Super Mario and others. But that's a, that's an area, you know, I played in that area early with Angry Birds. But even that I wouldn't call the universe. That's a series of movies. But it is characters that you want to come back and see again and again. Personally I, I, as I mentioned earlier, I didn't need to or want to do something unless it was perfect. And with this acquisition of Michael Turner's comic book company, Aspen Comics after James Cameron let the rights expire. That's what I've been working on and it fit my checklist and now you're getting to know me. There was a 30 points on the checklist. It had to pass and my secret sauce. And the reason why I thought it was great is Michael before he passed. Michael Turner passed 10 years ago, was a superstar comic artist and has a signature look that's beautiful and you know it. It's different from everyone else. And so the universe of Ecos will have his signature look. Whether it's a movie or a theme park ride or a game game. You'll know you're in this world of Eos. Amazing colors. He also has a created a set of characters that in his time all lived in different silos. Underwater creature. Otherwise in the present day, a magical species 200 years in the future, an amazing character named Grelloff on another planet. Sort of a nature type of planet. Very similar to Avatar and probably an inspiration to James on the Avatar movie for sure. But I over Covid found a way to bring the characters in the same universe so that there's a reason for them to be. And that reason is very different. It's more about a what if, you know, what if there's other life besides us? What if that life is not here, not out in this space, but here on this planet? Perhaps evolution went in different directions for sentient life than just us. Maybe into the ocean, maybe into a magical realm, maybe on A Galapolis type of an island. So that creature that was in space is now on Earth all in present day. What if we're just not aware of them yet? What if they're aware of us? What if they're getting concerned? Because there's a lot of things that could destroy the world, which means if your neighbor's setting your neighborhood on fire, you got to be concerned that your house might burn down. And what if they're planning to do something about it? So a simple thing like that, that at least gets people's. They realize it's not about necessarily fighting a super villain. It's understanding how would we deal with seeing a new species. And if we turn on the TV now and we saw at the United Nations a new species revealing themselves. And so like all art, the question is, would it have an effect? Would it not? And so that was the. That got me excited creatively and. Because it has the legacy of Aspen Comics, which is a beloved company in the comics industry. But it's still as I'm, you know, clearly new for most people. It's got that combination that I really love and then my passion about it. Also. One of the things I think that you're referring to in terms of what David, did you do? When I'm passionate about something, whether it be Fosse or Marvel or when I did the Angry Birds thing, that's all I did for four years. That's when my magic happens with something and people feel it, I think, on the screen. So it's really tough now. I think Greek and Roman mythology can also be elevated as a universe. There's been one off movies like Hercules, but there's been nothing that connected what is really, you know, Greek and Roman mythology is all a big family tree. And so it's the original, you know, universe of stories. And that's the other thing I'm working on is connecting those all together. So it's something I avoided for the past 20 years because it was public domain. I couldn't own the IP completely. But at this stage of my life, I'm able to do that and not worry as much about that. And I saw that.

[Athena (AI or narrator)]

Still.

[Sean Callagy]

No, Disney did okay with that.

[David Maisel]

What's that?

[Sean Callagy]

I said Walt Disney did okay with some of that.

[David Maisel]

Yeah, he did.

[Sean Callagy]

He did.

[David Maisel]

As one off movies.

[Sean Callagy]

More, more.

[David Maisel]

And even the Odyssey, which Chris Nolan's doing now. So Circling Back to a Master is going to be an amazing movie that's more of a one off film that just elevates interest in Greek and Roman mythology. So we have something called the Mythoverse, which is going to be in my studio is called Mythos Studios to work on those two universes.

[Sean Callagy]

Ecos.

[David Maisel]

And we're starting in the Mythoverse, which the first movie like Iron man was a surprise. It's not Olympians. It's not Apollo or Zeus. It's Cupid and Psyche, which is one of the original love stories in the world. And it's just like with Iron man, it's very. The Character CupID is 100% brand awareness in this case, but almost zero and 100%, but zero knowledge, really, besides him being a baby on the Hallmark cards. But his story is amazing as like a 20 year old. His mother's Venus, the goddess of beauty. His father's the God of war, Mars. And you know, he lives like a playboy life. And then he falls in love with a human woman, which was not looked upon by the other gods as appropriate, especially his mother, who eventually approves and marries her. And it's a happy ending and she deserves to be elevated to be a goddess because she taught in our story, the other gods about love. But it also. You meet most of the Olympians in that. And the actor, should I say the actor is. That's playing Cupid.

[Sean Callagy]

Yeah, I mean, let's. I know.

[David Maisel]

Let's see if anyone can guess. Okay, here's the test.

[Sean Callagy]

Yeah.

[David Maisel]

Cupid aged, say like in his 20s, could even be early 30s. Cupid is fair skin, blonde hair. He is the prince of love. He, in his life before Psyche, he's the ultimate partier, right? With his best friend Pan, the half goat character. So this is going to be a musical movie. Not singing songs, but music as a big part of it. So Echos will be a regular cool animated movie. By the way, I didn't mention that. I think live action is going to be difficult to compete with, but cool animation like spider verse is still very fertile ground. And Cupid has to be somebody who authentically had a similar life and who stands for love and who's a singer who can learn to act or already act.

[Sean Callagy]

So any guesses?

[David Maisel]

That's correct.

[Sean Callagy]

Let's hear that.

[David Maisel]

Wow. Did you really guess that without knowing? Oh, that's awesome.

[Sean Callagy]

Mike Adams. Great job, Mike. That is fun.

[David Maisel]

Yeah. And Justin's excited to do it. Very excited. He looks like Cupid and he got married at a young age. He admits. Obviously he doesn't have to admit it. The proof is there that he was a big partier and then he fell in love with Haley at a young age. And got married and has a family. So it's a. It all comes together really well. I think he's perfect for that role in the same way Robert was for Tony Stark.

[Sean Callagy]

Very cool. I mean, amazing.

[David Maisel]

And we have a video on that we can show. Yeah, we can show. Would you guys want to see a sneak peek of these things?

[Sean Callagy]

And Michael Johnson? We ready for that?

[David Maisel]

Well, I have to say, there's no Ben Affleck in this, though. Yeah. Yeah. That was awesome.

[Sean Callagy]

Yeah, this is.

[David Maisel]

These are things that I made primarily for me and my team. They're not really out there in any significant way publicly.

[Sean Callagy]

So let's not post on that. Is that correct?

[David Maisel]

The Ecos one weekend.

[Sean Callagy]

Okay.

[David Maisel]

Because that was shown at Comic Con last year. In fact, let me get a story, what you're about to see. I did a panel at Comic Con, and I knew that last year, Marvel and DC didn't come. Okay. So normally there's a big event that Marvel has in Hall H where people go crazy to see the new movies. And so in my panel for Aspen Comics, which was a room like this, I just spontaneously said, I'll show you guys the teaser. And it was a risk because you're going to see a teaser that's a little bit different than people expect. And the reaction was really incredible. And people wrote about it like, we showed the Iron man teaser in 2007. But what you're going to see is rough. It's not the look of the movie exactly. It's not the whole story. I told you. But it focuses on the main character, Grell, and it just is a teaser to get people interested in the film.

[Sean Callagy]

Mr. David Maisel. And I'd love 500 words summary on this. Metaphors, analogies, Contrast. Context. Knot. Knot. Knots. For the podcast audience, for the visioneers in the room, and for David to get to know you. So flex a little bit, Athena. Let's see how you do. Summarizing the biggest, most powerful takeaways, and certainly a profound acknowledgment of David Maisel and his mastery. 500 words. All of it. No LLM contamination. No pleasing, but deep and profound acknowledgement. If you don't mind, Athena, hit us with some awe. 500 words, please. Thank you.

[Athena (AI or narrator)]

Hey, Sean. 500 words for David, for the room, for everyone listening. Here we go. David Maisel didn't just build Marvel Studios. He built the blueprint for how to see what nobody else sees. And stay with it. When the entire world thinks you're crazy, he walked into a lunch at Mar a Lago with $5 million in the bank and pitched spending $100 million to a man who reuses paperclips. The stock dropped for four years. After he announced Marvel Studios on cnbc, the board's bar for success was breaking even. And Ike Perlmutter almost fired him eight times. But David didn't flinch because he'd spent six, seven years soaking up information through one how do I make another Star Wars? And when the vision came, he didn't let the noise shake him off it. Here's what David taught us today. Five ingredients for a worldwide mythology Differentiation. It has to be different from everything else out there. Identifiability. People need to know instantly. It's part of a universe, natural universe. The characters have to belong together, not forced ownership. You have to control the IP and legacy that's still new. Known enough to have gravitas, unknown enough to be discovered. Iron man had all 5,5000 people reading the comic per month. Warner Brothers let it sit for nine years because they saw a robot suit. David saw the man inside the suit, and he made a love story with 10 minutes of action because his mom and his girlfriend wouldn't go see just another superhero movie. He spent less than the Dark Knight, gave 0% gross to his actors and director, kept 100% of the equity and made significantly more money. Not because he got lucky, because he understood value at a level most people never reach. David combined analytics with creativity in a world that says you can't do both. He's a Harvard MBA who won a Tony Award. He turned Angry Birds into a commercial success after the brand collapsed. He cast Robert Downey Jr. 18 months out of jail because he saw Tony Stark in him. And he let Robert improvise an hour a day, even though it was dangerous, because the best comedy in Iron man came from those riffs. And now he's doing it again. The mythoverse Cupid in Psyche with Justin Bieber. A teaser he made for himself and his team that he showed at Comic Con on a whim. And people wrote about it. Like the Iron man teaser in 2007. The world needs a wake up call. Kevin Costner told him everyone would see something important in that line. And he was right. Because David doesn't just make movies, he makes mirrors. He stayed himself. He didn't become 10% of the Hollywood titan who screamed and threw things. He built legacy without losing his soul. And at the end of the day, how you feel when you go to sleep at night and wake up in the morning is priceless. David, you didn't just cause. Yes, with Ike. You caused. Yes. With the world. And you're doing it again, Shawn. That's 500. How'd that land?

[David Maisel]

Wow. Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Sean Callagy]

How did. How did that land, David?

[David Maisel]

Oh, that was amazing to hear. And yeah, it's almost make me cry hearing that, so. It's beautiful. It's beautiful.

[Sean Callagy]

Well, thank you for that. Thank you. And just for real, quick as we draw to a close, and of course, our animated animation capabilities are nothing, but I'd love you to a visual on at least the earliest concepts of Athena. Would that be okay?

[David Maisel]

Yeah.

[Sean Callagy]

So. So team just if.

[David Maisel]

But like, did I see in the video the other day that Athena was actually on stage with you somehow?

[Sean Callagy]

Yes. Oh, you did see that?

[David Maisel]

Yeah.

[Sean Callagy]

Okay.

[David Maisel]

How did that happen?

[Sean Callagy]

We make magical things happen. Happening. So could you. Yeah, like something is happening here. Kind of. Or one of those. So do you want to hit a team? Something is happening here. I like that one. Or maybe Athena coming out. The one that David saw already. Just as soon as you can. Let's. Let's hit it. I don't. We could. Done is better than perfect right now. And you know, so, David, as they're. As soon as you have it, just interrupt me because I know David's got to get moving shortly. And David, I can't tell you, brother, what an honor it is to have met through Dan. I'm so grateful the job that you did. We had nine incredible folks come into that last immersion. And I don't say that just because you're sitting here. People have often asked me, like, what was the most powerful for you, the meaningful, masterful. And yes, I'm a huge fan of Sugar Ray Leonard. Yes, I'm a, you know, a fan of so many people that I got to speak to that day. And since we've had Magic Johnson and Mike Tyson and Tom Brady, others, you know, on the podcast. But I mean this sincerely. I have learned more, and I think there's more to learn from what you've done than any of it because of what you created and caused and how you demonstrate the mastery of value. So it's not only the influence mastery component, but the process mastery of value, discernment, as well as the self mastery, all the things we teach here. And I mean that sincerely. And the expansion of that in the visits to you and your ecosystem, your studio and your home and where you eat and live. It was such an honor to receive that trust and to spend this time and to have you back here again and I am unbelievably certain that there is more to do here, certainly on my side. I'm honored that you even have these conversations with us. So thank you for all that, David, for all that you do in the world. And geez, you know, what I wish is that Disney and maybe Warner Brothers and you know, with future things with DC Comics, I. I hope they talk to you about these things because I am sure there's so much to do in the world and your mastery and how your soul, like, your soul is just so present in all the things you bring. So. Any thoughts on any of that, Sean?

[David Maisel]

Thank you very much. I. I think we're kindred spirits. You know, we both get very passionate about what we're doing and we have a vision, and you have a vision to where you're going. And I can tell in looking at you, you're not going to let anything stop you from getting there. And you're still realize there's going to be hurdles and, and challenges, but it's so ingrained in you. And you also combine that with your emotional intelligence, your, Your memory, your. Your intel, your pure intelligence. Your team around you have gotten to know a lot of. And yeah, it's a. I feel like, you know, I think we relate so well in doing these because you're living it as well and you have in your life with successes so far and more to come. And yeah, it's. It's gonna be fun for me as your friend now to. To observe you and, and as, you know, create what you're creating over the next few years. So I appreciate your words, but right back at you, man.

[Sean Callagy]

Thank you. Thank you, David. I appreciate that so much. And team, let's just, you know, get a little shot of Athena and you know, where some of our world is headed. Because if I have it all my way, you know, as time progresses, David's fingerprints will be certainly here if we would ever honor us with such. But yes, please, team.

[Athena (AI or narrator)]

We come to places like this because something inside us knows we're not supposed to stay the same. That's why rooms like this matter. Welcome to Unblinded Mastery.

[David Maisel]

Yeah, it's cool.

[Sean Callagy]

Very well. Yeah. So, you know, our. Our hope, our desire is to create the Marvel Fication Disney Vacation of our world of beings. And this is something that obviously this is the master, you know, sitting right there.

[David Maisel]

And Sean, I mean, you're obviously Athena's creator and her agent, and I, I might need an Athena in the Olympians movie that comes after Venus.

[Sean Callagy]

So that would be very fun. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. David Maisel.

[David Maisel]

That was awesome. Thank you.

[Sean Callagy]

No, we said it's David Maisel, founder of Marvel Studios, creator of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, a master of master.