Bernie Sanders Wants You to Own Half the Profits from AI

Summary

Uncanny Valley | WIRED
Episode: Bernie Sanders Wants You to Own Half the Profits from AI
Date: June 30, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode features WIRED’s Global Editorial Director, Katie Drummond, in a wide-ranging interview with Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders. They explore Sanders’ groundbreaking proposal: a sovereign wealth fund ensuring that half of AI-generated profits benefit the public. The discussion dives into the unchecked influence of tech billionaires over AI’s future, legislative inaction, the existential risks and opportunities AI poses, and the political and social path forward.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Impetus for Sanders’ AI Proposals

• Sanders’ Motivation & Critique of Tech Leadership
  • AI is described as “the most consequential transformational technology in the history of humanity” but is currently shaped by figures like Musk, Bezos, and Zuckerberg, whom Sanders claims “could care less about the needs of ordinary people.” (03:17)
  • Quote: “That has got to stop.” — Bernie Sanders (03:17)
• Moratorium on Data Centers
  • Details on recent legislation (with Rep. AOC) proposing a moratorium on new data centers until safeguards are in place, citing negative impacts on local environments and electric costs (04:09).

2. The Sovereign AI Wealth Fund: Structural Overview

• How It Would Work
  • The public would “own half of these industries,” with half the board seats reserved for public representatives (04:46).
  • Purpose: To ensure decisions are not made solely by billionaires, but also by public interest—especially on risks like unemployment, children’s well-being, and privacy (05:21).
  • Profits: Half the proceeds from AI industries (companies with $200 million+ in capitalization) would go to the sovereign wealth fund for the public (06:07, 06:26).
  • Quote: “The public has got to own half of these industries, meaning that half of the members of the board will be representatives of the public.” — Bernie Sanders (04:47)

3. Congressional Inertia & Corporate Power

• Lack of Political Urgency
  • Sanders laments that Congress has yet to pass “one significant piece of legislation” on AI (04:11).
  • He attributes this apathy to the immense financial pressure from the tech industry, deterring lawmakers from meaningful action (07:07–07:58).
  • Quote: “It’s not that members of Congress are stupid... it is that they are frightened.” — Bernie Sanders (07:34)
  • Calls for comprehensive campaign finance reform to “get rid of Citizens United, get rid of super PACs” (07:58).
• Tech Literacy Among Lawmakers
  • Most lawmakers grasp only a fragment of AI’s impact, often focusing on children’s mental health and job loss, without deeper systems thinking (08:46–09:54).

4. AI’s Societal Risks

• Job Loss and Social Transformation
  • Sanders expresses skepticism that new jobs will replace displaced ones at the necessary scale, especially for older or less tech-savvy workers (09:55–10:56).
  • Quote: “What happens to the 50-year-old guys who are now driving a truck? You think... they’re going to go into computer coding? I don’t think so. Those jobs are gone.” — Bernie Sanders (10:17)
• Loss of Human Connection & Privacy
  • Concerns about AI replacing human interaction and eroding the “soul and emotions and feelings” that make us human (32:44).
  • Highlights misuse of deep fakes for misinformation and manipulation (11:19–12:58).

5. Sanders’ Path to AI Engagement

• Genesis of His Involvement
  • Inspired by the lack of debate in Congress and conversations with AI pioneers like Geoffrey Hinton about risks of superintelligent AI becoming independent from human control (13:24–14:21).

6. Public Agency vs. Tech Oligarchy

• Grassroots Pushback
  • Noted rise in public opposition to data centers, not just for local impacts but existential worries about the future (17:08–18:18).
  • Critiques the disconnect between the public’s lack of agency and the rapid unilateral decisions of tech billionaires.

7. Journalist–Tech “Oligarchs” Tensions

• Community Impacts & Non-Disclosure
  • Describes how wealthy corporations bring legal muscle to small towns, binding them to NDAs and undermining transparency (19:25–19:53).
• Responsible Data Center Rollout
  • Advocates for democratic social debate: “How should AI be used to improve our life? What do you guys think?” (20:13)
  • Workweek Revolution: Suggests possible reductions in working hours without pay cuts as a positive outcome if handled well (20:49–21:08).

8. AI Executives’ Response to Profit-Sharing

• Sam Altman’s (OpenAI) Skepticism
  • Sanders says Altman was “not enthusiastic” about the sovereign wealth fund, characterizing him as “a good politician” able to sense and respond to shifting public sentiment (21:36–22:12).
  • Tech industry may offer minor gestures of profit-sharing as optics, not as genuine power-sharing (22:12–23:02).
  • Quote: “The issue is power, and they want to keep that.” — Bernie Sanders (23:02)

9. Power, Wealth, and Political Accountability

• Can a Government Hold a Trillionaire Accountable?
  • Sanders fears the “cat may be out of the bag” but stresses the need for political and grassroots mobilization to challenge concentrated wealth and influence (23:53–24:59).
  • Emphasizes organizing, not just voting, to resist corporate dominance (26:01–27:02).
  • Quote: “Can we mobilize people at the grassroots level? By the millions, to stand up to them... I don’t know the answer, but I’m trying.” (25:55)

10. AI and Geopolitics—The “Beat China” Narrative

• Rejecting the “We Must Beat China” Excuse
  • Dismisses urgency around AI regulation framed as a race with China, likening it to manufactured urgency from previous US wars (28:40–29:14).
  • Reveals strong scientific dialogue and shared concerns even with Chinese colleagues (29:19–29:44).
  • Quote: “So, no, I don’t buy [AI race with China]. I think that’s just the boogeyman, as usual.” — Bernie Sanders (30:11)

11. Sanders’ Vision for an AI Future—Grounded Optimism

• Describing a Hopeful Future
  • Envisions a society where AI supports universal access to necessities, healthcare, education, and economic security, while warning not to lose core human connection (31:12–32:41).
  • Quote: “I worry very much... I don’t want to lose our ability to relate to each other... we have the soul and we have emotions and we have feelings. Robots don’t and AI doesn’t.” — Bernie Sanders (32:22–32:44)

12. Source of Hope: Lessons from US History

• Historical Precedent for Overcoming Crisis
  • Encourages listeners not to despair, drawing on historical moments like US independence, abolition, the New Deal, and WWII as evidence that collective action can prevail against long odds (33:35–36:27).
  • Quote: “This country has gone through dark times in the past, and this is a bad moment... But I have the privilege... of seeing great people... they want to make this country a better country. So I am not giving up on this country.” — Bernie Sanders (36:11)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Senator Bernie Sanders:

  • “You can’t let a handful of billionaires determine the future of humanity.” (04:46)
  • “What is the foundation of [AI]? It’s based on human knowledge and human work... so the public should benefit from that financially as well.” (05:38)
  • “Those jobs are gone. ... You are transforming our relationships with each other, who we are as human beings.” (10:17–10:56)
  • “Deep fakes are getting very, very sophisticated. ... Most people won’t know the difference.” (11:19–11:55)
  • “The issue is power, and they want to keep that.” (23:02)
  • “I don’t buy [the China narrative]. I think that’s just the boogeyman, as usual.” (30:11)
  • “We gotta start talking about it.” (15:09)
  • “I am not giving up on this country. All right? And I think we can turn it around. And I think our worst days are not ahead of us. They’re behind us.” (36:24)

• Katie Drummond:

  • “I think one of the major frustrations among the American people... is the feeling that AI is being foisted on them...by the oligarchs...” (16:40)
  • “What does responsible data center rollout look like?” (20:02)
  • “What gives you hope?” (33:02 – paraphrased)

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Important Timestamps

• Sanders outlines the Sovereign Wealth Fund – 04:46–06:07
• Congressional inertia and campaign finance – 06:32–07:58
• Job loss, AI’s disruption, social impact – 09:40–10:56
• Deep fakes & manipulation concerns – 11:19–12:58
• Sam Altman’s reaction to profit-sharing – 21:36–22:12
• Accountability for tech trillionaires – 23:53–25:00
• Rejecting AI “beat China” race – 28:40–30:11
• Sanders’ vision for AI and society – 31:07–32:44
• Historical hope/closing remarks – 33:35–36:27

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Tone & Style

Senator Sanders is characteristic: passionate, urgent, occasionally blunt, yet hopeful. He directly challenges the tech establishment (“billionaires determine the future of humanity”), insists on grounding debate in public interest, and frequently references lessons from past political struggles. Drummond is incisive yet empathetic, steering the conversation toward actionable insight and broader vision.

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Final Reflection

This episode is a call to reclaim agency and shape AI’s place in society. Sanders’ vision is both practical (profit-sharing, public boards) and philosophical (preserving human connection, democracy versus oligarchy). The message is clear: without organized, grassroots pressure, the power and profits of AI will be consolidated among the very few—unless the public stands up and demands a different future.

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For those who haven't listened, this episode offers a deep and urgent meditation on the intersection of technology, wealth, democracy, and social change—punctuated by decades of political insight, flashes of Sanders’ humor, and a persistent call for ordinary citizens to imagine and demand something better.

Transcript

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[Katie Drummond]

From Wired.

[Interviewer]

This is the big interview where we

[Katie Drummond]

get to know the people beyond the headlines in conversations that explore the intersection of technology, power, and culture. I'm Katie Drummond, Wired's global editorial Director, and I have really been looking forward to this next interview. My guest today is Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, who honestly has a lot in common with us. At Wired, tech executives seem to hate us, and Elon Musk has accused both of us on X of being dead. It turns out that tech leaders like critical coverage about as much as they like being taxed when so many other politicians are still getting their bearings. Senator Sanders has taken a leading stance on regulating artificial intelligence. In a recent op ed for New York Times, he argues for the creation of a sovereign wealth fund that will give the American public a stake in AI. I'm quoting here. Since AI is built on the collective knowledge of humanity, the wealth it generates must benefit humanity. Earlier this spring, Sanders and his frequent collaborator, Representative Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, introduced legislation that would place a moratorium on building data centers until safeguards on AI are put in place. I'm so pleased now to welcome Senator Bernie Sanders to the big interview to talk about his work on AI. We are in fact, at the Senator's campaign office in Washington D.C. senator Sanders,

[Interviewer]

thank you so much for your time.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

My pleasure.

[Katie Drummond]

Wonderful.

[Interviewer]

Well, I want to jump right in. I want to start by talking about the sovereign wealth fund that you have proposed in the context of AI. I know you've made some details about this public. Tell us how it would work.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

All right, I'm going to get to that.

[Interviewer]

Get to it.

[Interviewer Colleague]

One second.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Okay, I want to back it up.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

And the concerns that I have and what drove me to push for a moratorium on data centers and the sovereign wealth fund is the fact that, as I think most people know, AI is being pushed by the wealthiest people in the world and people like Musk and Bezos and Zuckerberg and those type of guys, and they could care less about the needs of ordinary people. So AI is the most consequential transformational technology in the history of humanity. And it's being pushed by guys who could care less, just want to get richer and more powerful. That has got to stop. And what has distressed me very much and why I got involved in this issue is it looked all around me in Congress. You would think that with such a transformational technology going to impact every aspect

[Interviewer Colleague]

of their life, there'd be massive debates, right? This committee would be doing, oh, my God, we got this legislation. What are we going to zero?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Nothing.

[Interviewer Colleague]

As of this date, as of today,

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

there's not been one significant piece of legislation dealing with ar. Okay, so what did we do? We did two things. Number one, we said, wait a minute, you're building these data centers all over the country, and in fact, all over the world, they're having a very negative impact on local environments, on electric costs, et cetera. Slow it down. It's like a moratorium unless we start getting guidelines and legislation to protect ordinary people. Second of all, we propose a sovereign AI, sovereign wealth fund. All right, what does that do? It does two things. First of all, most importantly, it says that on an issue of such transformational impact, you can't let a handful of billionaires determine the future of humanity. The public has got to own half of these industries, meaning that half of the members of the board will be representatives of the public. And what's important there is, if there are ideas and proposals or technology that will lead to massive unemployment or endanger the well being of kids, or privacy

[Interviewer Colleague]

rights, et cetera, et cetera, you are going to have half of that board

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

saying, sorry, bad idea, you can't do it. And the second part of it is, as AI, as I expect, becomes more and more lucrative, these guys make more and more money. That money should not just go to a handful of very wealthy people. What is the foundation of?

[Interviewer Colleague]

They are.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

What is it based on? It's based on human knowledge and human work. You've written a book, they got it. You've written a poem, you've written some scientific work, you've written for Wired.

[Interviewer]

They have that too.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

That's right, exactly. And you have. What compensation did you get for that?

[Interviewer]

Our writers and our company and our publication received $00.

[Interviewer Colleague]

Sanders and I wrote five bucks but inside. But the point is that is the foundation of AI so the public should

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

benefit from that financially as well. So what we are saying is that half of the increase in revenue in wealth that is created by AI should go to the people as well.

[Interviewer]

And these are public companies paying into this sovereign wealth fund, right? The Microsofts, the Googles, any company of

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

$200 million or more, the larger ones.

[Katie Drummond]

Now you talked a few minutes ago

[Interviewer]

about lawmakers, about members of Congress, the absence of urgency that you have seen there. I would argue there has been a consistent absence of urgency among politicians around technology for many, many decades. And I want to.

[Interviewer Colleague]

Not only technology, it's a lot of other things.

[Interviewer]

A lot of other things, but I'm

[Katie Drummond]

very focused on technology.

[Interviewer]

What kind of buy in do you think exists now for the idea of a sovereign wealth fund and what needs to happen for it to become a reality in this country?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Look, everything is political and we start off the reason that I like your term, sense of urgency. There is no sense of urgency is you got, you're a member of Congress and you say, you know what, I talk to some constituents, I'm worried about the impact on children's mental health. I'm worried about jobs.

[Interviewer Colleague]

You know what? I think we should do something.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

You know what happens and you're running for office, you know what happens. The next day you got millions of dollars in 30 second ads coming out against you.

[Interviewer Colleague]

So when you talk about lack of

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

urgency, it's not that members of Congress are stupid, they are not, by and large it is that they are frightened. You want to be in politics, you want to get reelected.

[Interviewer Colleague]

In fact, there was a member that went out, I think on the Democratic side who said it might be a

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

good idea to stay away from that issue.

[Interviewer Colleague]

Don't talk about it because you start talking about it, you come up with logical ideas as to how we go forward.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

The AI industries are going to go after you. They're going to spend in this midterm election hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions. They got all the money in the world. All right? So that is why there is no sense of urgency and that is why we need fundamental campaign finance reform. Get rid of Citizens United, get rid of super PACs. Okay?

[Interviewer]

So a lot needs to happen to get us there. I mean, I interviewed Alex Borres, who

[Katie Drummond]

obviously has a big day today.

[Interviewer]

We're talking the day of the New York primaries. You know, there were millions and millions and millions of dollars spent to target his candidacy for exactly the reason that you're, that you're citing. In the context of technology, though, and lawmakers, I don't think they're stupid. At least most of them. I think most of them are smart. Do you think that they understand the technology that they ought to be overseeing ideally in some way?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I mean, this is so big that I think members grasp onto certain elements of it. For example, I would say that many members are worried about the impact on children. You know, we have heard these horrible stories of kids committing suicide at the advice of bots and so forth. And you know, people emotionally respond to that. The idea that we have kids spending so much time with their quote, unquote, bot companions. I think people sense that there is some discussion, but not a whole lot on the impact that AI will have on jobs. And some people are saying, well, every technology, we don't have too many blacksmiths anymore, too many elevator operators. The world changes, Bernie. It's going to change again.

[Interviewer Colleague]

Yeah, we're going to lose jobs, but we're going to create a whole lot of new jobs.

[Katie Drummond]

Jobs, right.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Well, I'm not so sure that that's the case, you know, and the truth is nobody knows exactly what is going to happen. But I think there has certainly, you

[Interviewer Colleague]

know, if, I mean, just give you

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

one example of it. There are 6, 7, 8 million people who drive trucks, cabs, Uber, Lyft, etc. Right. You have been, no doubt, in driverless vehicles.

[Interviewer]

I've been in three or four.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Yeah, I've been in one too. What you think right up, they work very, very well.

[Interviewer]

They do.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

And right now in Texas you got 18 wheelers that are driverless running down the road. All right, so what happens? Let's just say that that technology expands to cities, states all over the country. What happens to the 50 year old guys who are now driving a truck? You think they're going to where they going to go, what jobs are out? They think they're going to go into computer coding. I don't think so. Those jobs are gone. Et cetera, et cetera. Has anyone taken a really hard look at that? And it's. I'll tell you something, it's even deeper than job loss. You are transforming our relationships with each other, who we are as human beings.

[Interviewer Colleague]

I was really, you know, Musk, who

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I lies a lot and is a

[Interviewer Colleague]

good salesman, who lies a lot, lies

[Interviewer]

on this we agree.

[Interviewer Colleague]

He lies a great deal and he's a good salesman.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

He does what he does.

[Interviewer Colleague]

But Musk is the wealthiest, most powerful

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

guy in the world.

[Interviewer Colleague]

He says, oh, work will be obsolete. AI and robotics will do everything better

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

than you can do it now. Is that half true? Probably. I don't know if that is true. Half true, yeah. So what are you going to do? What happens to your life? What's your purpose in life? Your kids, what, are going to be watching Musk videos all day? And you're going to be sitting home by getting a check from who? We don't quite know. Because if you're not working, you're not paying taxes. If you're not paying taxes, Social Security, Medicare doesn't exist. Who's going to be giving you the check? Are you thinking. Many of my colleagues in Congress has asked that question. I don't think so. No privacy issues. Every time you're on the net, somebody's going to know something about you. Go to the doctor, prescription drugs are used, your bank accounts that will become accessible to somebody. I'll tell you something else, just as a politician, it's happened to me. I don't know. It's happened to you. Deep fakes are getting very, very sophisticated. So somebody could put words into your mouth, have you talking, take it right off the show, put different words in your mouth, and most people won't know the difference.

[Interviewer]

I actually had a deep fake of myself created just to see what was possible. And then I presented it to the entire company, Conde Nast, which owns Wired. It was uncanny. It was very funny.

[Interviewer Colleague]

Was it effective?

[Katie Drummond]

Oh, yeah. Everybody thought it was me.

[Interviewer]

And then I walked out on stage and it was me twice. But obviously, that taken to nefarious ends is a very scary thing.

[Interviewer Colleague]

I was saying already, it's already beginning. You may.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

This guy Massey, you remember in Qatar, they had a deep fake of him walking with a hotel room into a hotel room with two women.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

And it looked reasonably realistic. So how do you deal with that?

[Interviewer]

You are very much convinced that this is a transformational technology, and I agree with you. I'm curious, though. What has informed that point of view? Has your point of view on AI changed in recent years? And if so, where did that come from? Was there a moment? Was there a conversation? How did you get to where you are now in terms of how you think about it?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

My mind works in weird ways.

[Interviewer Colleague]

What really got me going is what I mentioned a moment ago. It's like, oh, there's an elephant in the room. You don't notice the elephant is in the room. I mean, everyone can argue how transformative,

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

what the timeline is.

[Interviewer Colleague]

Right.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Nobody knows the answer to that.

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It is.

[Interviewer Colleague]

No one denies that it transformed. And I'm a member of the United States Senate. So I'm going around, hey, anyone talking about it, thinking about it, no discussion at all.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

That got me going.

[Interviewer Colleague]

And then I started talking, you know,

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

to people like Geoffrey Hinton.

[Interviewer]

Okay, sure.

[Interviewer Colleague]

You know Hinton?

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

And he's a Nobel Prize winner in physics.

[Interviewer]

Yep.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

We did a town meeting last year in Georgetown, and he says that as AI becomes smarter than human beings, there is a. I don't know what the words. I don't want to put words into his mouth, but it's at least a strong possibility that it will become independent of human control with possible calamitous results.

[Interviewer Colleague]

Now you got a Nobel Prize.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Whatever happens to one of the godfathers of AI and others talking about that,

[Interviewer Colleague]

you might think that whether it's a 5% likelihood or 3%, 8%, we are talking about the future of the entire human race, that somebody might stand up and say, excuse me, maybe we should do something.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Not happening.

[Interviewer Colleague]

I got into this thing because I

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

read talk to people, and what stunned me is the. To quote you, the lack of urgency that I was seeing.

[Interviewer]

And so here you are trying to create.

[Interviewer Colleague]

Here I am, somebody who's a total nerd. I mean. I mean, I shouldn't say a nerd, an anti nerd.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I don't know anything about this technology. And as I say often, I have

[Interviewer Colleague]

a hard time dealing with TV in

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

the house, but somebody has got to. You know, it is so transformational in every aspect of our lives. We gotta start talking about it.

[Katie Drummond]

We're gonna take a break, and we'll be right back.

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[Interviewer]

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[Senator Bernie Sanders]

That's hit the gas.

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[Interviewer]

I think one of the major frustrations among the American people, I don't speak for all of them, but I speak to many of them in our reporting, is the feeling that AI is being foisted on them. Right. That it is being presented to them as inevitability by the oligarchs. Right. By the musks, by the Sam Altmans, you name them. And that they don't have agency and that they don't have control in that. How do you respond to that?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I think you're exactly right. We are seeing the response in, and I think a couple of ways. Number one, I think a year ago, you and I would probably not have perceived the kind of grassroots opposition to data centers.

[Interviewer Colleague]

And one way the immediate concern is

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I don't want my electric rates to go up. I hate the noise. I don't like the way it's looking. It's destroy our local environment. True. But I think in addition to that, people are saying, my God, what are we building here? Is that monstrosity down the road going to take my kid's ability for my kid to have a job? And your point is exactly right. And that's somebody who has taken on the oligarchs more than maybe anybody else in the Congress is I see these guys with unbelievable wealth and power pushing these things through.

[Interviewer Colleague]

Somehow or another, we can't guarantee health

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

care to all people. We can't get more doctors and nurses and do what every other major country does.

[Interviewer Colleague]

It is impossible.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

But you can build hundreds of data centers and transform humanity in a question of a few years. That you can do.

[Interviewer Colleague]

Why?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Because when you guarantee health care, this gets really deep stuff. I mean, when you guarantee health care to all people, what does that mean? It means that all people have a better life. You do a better education.

[Interviewer Colleague]

Should we have the best educational system, childcare? Can we do it?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Yeah, we can do it. But that is not Mr. Musk's goal. They have a whole different set of mentalities. They're really smart and they're very aggressive and they're effective business people and they want to just push it through. This is their world that they're creating. And the average person is sitting there and saying, what is this world going to do to me and to my children? Enter the environment. But they're not, because you have, getting back to the border issue, you have a corrupt political system. Their voices are not being heard because money dominates what goes on here in Washington.

[Interviewer]

And I would argue that data centers are a symbol of that very much to people. There's the environmental piece, there's the noise, there's the community aspect. But in our observation and in our reporting, it is much more a symbol of that lack of agency. Does that resonate? Is that what you hear when you talk about it?

[Interviewer Colleague]

Look, here's the story.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

This is what happens. You have some of the wealthiest corporations, most powerful corporations with lawyers and politicians

[Interviewer Colleague]

and everybody else coming into a small town, talking to the town board of selectmen, right? Five people who volunteered their time are taking on the most powerful institutions in the world who have unbelievable amounts of money, who get them to sign these disclosure, you know, these non disclosure agreements. So people don't even know what's going

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

on in their own town.

[Interviewer Colleague]

And I think people see the contrast

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

between wealth and power and their own little community and they're getting angry.

[Interviewer]

So in your view, what does responsible data center rollout look like?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I think you got to. You need a moratorium to just answer the questions that you've asked.

[Interviewer Colleague]

We need to have.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I know it sounds like a radical idea. All right, how should AI be used to improve our life? What do you guys think? All right. Does it do some good things in healthcare? Can help doctors make better diagnoses, better prescriptions? Absolutely. What about if we wipe out manufacturing jobs in America? You think that's a good idea? No, Bernie, I don't think that's a good idea.

[Interviewer Colleague]

Should your kid get hooked up with a AI bot?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

No, Bernie, that's dangerous. I'm scared about that. What about having your privacy completely invaded? Is that a good idea? No, I treasure my privacy.

[Interviewer Colleague]

All right.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

How in the face of AI do we deal with all of those issues? So if you say to people, guess what, you're working 50 hours a week now, 40 hours a week, we're going to lower your work week to 20, 30 hours and you're going to get the same pay. How's that? Hey, I'm in For that. All right.

[Interviewer]

I mean, I'm in for that.

[Interviewer Colleague]

Yeah. Well, so is everybody else.

[Interviewer]

I do really like working, but.

[Interviewer Colleague]

Yeah, we'll allow you to work longer hours.

[Interviewer]

Thank you.

[Interviewer Colleague]

All right. But if AI is going to create

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

wealth, should that wealth benefit you and everybody else and my grandchildren, or just Mr. Musk and his friends? I think 90% of the people are on our side in answering that question.

[Interviewer]

Now, I know you don't spend much time with the Musks of the world.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I don't.

[Interviewer]

You don't.

[Katie Drummond]

But you did spend some time with Sam Altman recently.

[Interviewer]

I think you spent an hour together talking in particular about the sovereign wealth fund proposal. You said Altman was, quote, not enthusiastic about the idea. You also characterized him as a good politician.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What were your impressions of him when you met?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

He's a smart guy.

[Interviewer]

Smart guy?

[Interviewer Colleague]

Yeah.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Very smart guy. And he's very personable. And I think he's a good salesman. That's what he does. And I think what he understands. And he's, I think, a good politician as well. And he comes to Washington, he sees these. These are smart guys. I see the, you know, they were trying to tell us a couple of

[Interviewer Colleague]

years ago, oh, hey, it's so great, it's so wonderful, everybody's going to benefit.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

And now they're saying people increasingly do not believe that. So you're sitting there, you're Sam and some of these guys. Well, what's your response? Well, what am I going to. I got to give the American people something. Guess what? We're going to give you 5% of the benefits of the thing because we're nice guys just out of the goodness of our own heart. So you're going to have to figure out how they can sell their product and their transformation to the American people. And that's one way. And Trump is the same way. I don't believe a word that Trump says. But after I made that announcement, he came on, oh, it's an interesting idea. Sure.

[Interviewer]

He did. Yeah. Is there a world where the Altmans of the world, the tech companies get there before lawmakers, where they realize that they have such a serious optics problem that they need to do more than they're doing to appease the American public?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I think you'll see that happening, how far we'll go. But the issue is not just, okay, you force me, I'm going to give you a couple of thousand dollars a year. You got it? The issue is power, and they want to keep that. That's what I think. They want money is one thing, power is another thing.

[Interviewer]

I wanted to ask you a little bit more about power. I mean, you have been, as you say, taking on the oligarchs for a very long time. Wired in this era calls them oligarchs too. We are very concerned about the amount of power that these executives wield over the country, over the world, and the amount of money and leverage that they have over Washington. How do you hold that amount of wealth to account? You recently described Elon Musk achieving trillionaire status as a, quote, call to action. Can any government hold a trillionaire to account?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Well, you're asking a very profound question. I mean, essentially you're saying, is the cat out of the bag already

[Interviewer]

trillionaire? I mean, that is a stunning amount of wealth.

[Interviewer Colleague]

It is.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

And is Mr. Musk more powerful and more influential in the United States Congress? I don't know. I mean, I haven't studied it. He may well be single handedly. Can these people be held accountable? I mean, just as one example, using Musk, and he's certainly not the only one, he spent some 290 million, I think, to elect Trump.

[Interviewer]

He did.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Okay, so when you have, and it's not just him, you got all these zillionaires. I mentioned the AI super pacs, you mentioned Boros in New York City. But it's not just there, it's all over the country. Can we stop? I think you can. But it almost calls up a revolutionary situation, to tell you the truth. Not to get you too nervous, it means what I have seen is someone who's traveled all over the country, I have seen wonderful, just beautiful. You know, people say, bernie, you're old.

[Interviewer Colleague]

How do you get inspired? How do you keep going?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

And I see, I have seen all over this country, in New York, in Vermont, California, all over this country, beautiful, beautiful young people who really want to save this country and they're getting involved politically. We're seeing trade unionists as a guy, just as they do that. One example, a guy came to a rally of mine in Montana.

[Interviewer Colleague]

It's a trade union guy, came to a rally.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

He spoke about problems the workers were having.

[Interviewer Colleague]

He ended up running for Congress and

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

he won against an establishment opponent. We're seeing that, we're seeing grass, but it's going to take a lot, a lot, a lot of work. So the answer to your question is a political answer. It is. These guys have unbelievable wealth. They own much of the media, they own much of the political system, they own the economy. Can we mobilize people at the grassroots level? By the millions, to stand up to them. Well, I don't know the answer to them, but I'm trying. That's exactly what I'm trying.

[Katie Drummond]

And what does that revolution look like?

[Interviewer]

Is that organizing? Is it voting? Is it something else?

[Interviewer Colleague]

It is first thought.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Voting is very, very important. But it is not just voting. I mean, you're seeing as one example, data centers being stopped. Not by votes, by people mobilizing against them. And I think the other thing that we really have got to do in this moment is to, I mean, Trump and Musk and Zuckerberg and these guys, they have a vision for the country. They have their vision, but we have not come forward with an alternative vision. All right, with all of the power of AI and its potential to increase wealth, et cetera, what is television, what kind of world, what kind of nation do you want to live in? Do we talk about it much?

[Interviewer Colleague]

I mean, the easy stuff is, okay,

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

we should do what every other country does, have health care is human. Right, Fine, that's easy. Yeah. We should raise the minimum wage to a living wage. Fine, that's easy. Blah, blah, blah, blah. But these guys are.

[Interviewer Colleague]

You talk about a revolution.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

They are revolutionaries. All right. You know, Trump happens not to believe in the Constitution of the United States. That's pretty revolutionary.

[Interviewer]

It is a revolutionary way to be.

[Interviewer Colleague]

Many of us conservatives, actually, you know, we think we should obey the law,

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

and this is the Constitution. No, it's not where Trump comes from, he's an authoritarian.

[Interviewer Colleague]

And by the way, one of the

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

things that's interesting to change subject just a little bit, but not Trump's first visit when he was second term. Where did he go? Did he go to Europe? No, he hates Europe. Went to Saudi Arabia.

[Interviewer Colleague]

Right.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Remember that?

[Interviewer]

I do.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Which happens to be the wealthiest family on earth, happens to be run by murdered Washington Post journalists, but somewhat dictatorship. So what you're looking at, do not separate oligarchy from authoritarianism. They're twin brothers. Got me? You understand what I mean? There is a reason why Trump gravitates to UAE and to Qatar and to these guys. Incredible wealth. They don't believe in democracy. And they're also very, very heavily into AI stuff.

[Interviewer]

Just deciding what to ask you last.

[Interviewer Colleague]

Now, the real odd one.

[Interviewer]

No, no, no, no, no, no. Well, maybe. No. While we're talking about the international piece of this, I think one of the big flashpoints in the conversation around AI in recent years has been China.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And so much of the urgency around the development of AI and the absence of regulation around AI has been, we have to beat China. And it has become gospel to some people in this country. Do you buy that?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

No.

[Interviewer]

Look, tell me more about that.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

We had to go to war against Iran. We had to go to war against Vietnam. That was my war that I saw as a kid. Because what was the domino effect? Remember that one that was. Got to go to war against Iraq because you know what Saddam Hussein had? Nuclear weapons. That's right. Gotta go to war against Iran now. And we gotta. This China. We gotta beat them. Look, there's always the deeper level, always the need for these guys to have an enemy. All right?

[Interviewer Colleague]

And, you know, it's difficult after balance

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

the fact that Musk makes massive investments in China with China being our enemy and Apple is all over China and all that stuff. But they can figure it out. But I did something which got some of these guys in the administration nervous. We held a town meeting right here in the Capitol. And I had two leading American scientists, knew a lot about AI with, guess

[Interviewer Colleague]

what, Virtually two guys from China. And guess what?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

You'll be shocked to know that the Chinese people are not all evil, horrible, terrible human beings. They got some really smart people there who have the same exact concerns as Americans do. Okay? And it was really a good discussion we had. And I have heard from fairly high sources that, you know, there may even be some discussions between the White House and the Chinese about how we cannot destroy the world. I know it's a radical idea, but. So the point being is that in the height of the Cold War, Soviet Union, US People like Gorbachev and Reagan were smart enough to know that a nuclear war was not going to benefit anybody. And there are people in China who understand that as well. So, no, I don't buy. I think that's just the boogeyman, as usual. Right?

[Interviewer]

It's a false construct to create urgency.

[Interviewer Colleague]

Hey, you got to let us do everything we want. We got to run all over. You got to destroy your communities because God beat China.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Well, I don't think most Americans are buying that.

[Katie Drummond]

I want to end with some optimism.

[Interviewer Colleague]

Let's be optimistic.

[Katie Drummond]

Let's be optimistic.

[Interviewer]

You talked a few minutes ago about the absence of vision for the United States for what this could look like. When you think about artificial intelligence and it goes the way you want it to go, it goes in the right direction. According to Senator Sanders. What does our future look like? What does life look like for our kids? I mean, my kids.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Okay. How many kids do you have?

[Interviewer]

I have one.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Okay. I got four.

[Interviewer]

I care about their future. Too.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Well, that's what we should. We all should care about each other's kids. I don't know the answer to that question. And maybe I'm kind of conservative on these things. You know, I want to see a world and we can bring about this world where poverty and economic stress doesn't exist. Okay, I grew up in a working class family and I know a little bit about that. I know that today working class people die six, seven years earlier than wealthy people. You know, that not talked about very often because of the stress of everyday life. All right, so how do you create. Can we create an economy in which people have the basic necessities of life, have the opportunity to get a good education, have great healthcare? We have new hospitals all over this country, state of the art. Can AI play a role in helping us in healthcare, et cetera?

[Interviewer Colleague]

Yeah, But I'll tell you something, and

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I haven't thought it through, I'm talking off the top of my head here is these robots.

[Interviewer Colleague]

You know,

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I worry very much, for better or for worse, that's all we got as human beings. And I don't want to lose our ability to relate to each other for the musks of the world. They believe in efficiency. Right. So if there's a robot out there that can do better than you, what do I need you for?

[Interviewer Colleague]

I don't think that's a good trade

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

off, to tell you the truth.

[Interviewer Colleague]

So I think we have to be

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

very careful about how we protect what is human and important and all of us, how we have the soul and we have emotions and we have feelings. Robots don't and AI doesn't. So you asked me a good question of which I don't have a full answer, but those are the kinds of questions we've got to be dealing with.

[Interviewer]

Well, let me ask you this, and this will be the last question I think, for so many people right now. They look at the absence of regulation. They look at the confluence of power in the tech industry with power in Washington D.C. they look at Donald Trump in the White House. It can feel very overwhelming and it can feel very daunting and it can feel impossible to imagine that things could be anything other than what they are. What should give someone watching this or listening to it hope that things could be different?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

You know, I do speak just to that issue because your description of how people feel is absolutely right. People are overwhelmed with all of these. Throw in climate change as well. Europe is now experiencing by far the worst heat wave and savannah. So people, you know, become begin to live in despair. So all that I can say is I want Americans to go through our own history as a nation. And I don't mean to be political or overly patriotic or romantic here. Think about it. Think about it. In the 1770s, you know, we read about this stuff. These are really incredibly brave guys taking

[Interviewer Colleague]

on the greatest military in the world because they really wanted a sense of freedom that the king of England was not giving them. And if you look at the odds, they're the odds makers now. I don't think they would have given Thomas Jefferson and Washington much of a shot. They did it. And you think about the abomination of

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

slavery and people, the abolitionists fighting not just in the south, but in the north as well, you know, talking about the immorality of slavery and the struggles that they went through and the people who died, the John Browns of the world and all that stuff. And, you know, and the Martin Luther Kings had to take on the segregation that existed when I was a kid.

[Interviewer Colleague]

And they did.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

They prevailed. And you think about people during the depression, you know, 25% unemployment. You're talking about people living in despair. 25% unemployment in this country. People uprooted from their farms, going to cities, okay? And then, you know, they elected a president who began to transform the role of the federal government and began to provide for people. And you can even look at World War II, when we had to face our parents, had to face Hitler and Japan. You know, in 1941, this country was not prepared in any way, shape or form to fight a war on two fronts. Do you know that in two years, essentially, the United States had won that war by 43, 44. It was won because the country came together.

[Interviewer Colleague]

They really did.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Women were in the factories, men getting killed in Europe, Japan. And I got emotional about that because I would not be here. That was the case. So I say to people, this country has gone through dark times in the past, and this is a bad moment. No ifs, buts, and maybes. But I have the privilege that most people don't of going all over the country and seeing great people, really great people, often women, young people, people of color coming up. And they want to make this country a better country. So I am not giving up on this country. All right? And I think we can turn it around. And I think our worst days are not ahead of us. They're behind us.

[Interviewer]

So you're sticking it out?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I am sticking it out.

[Interviewer]

Senator, thank you for your time.

[Nicole Phelps]

Thank you.

[Katie Drummond]

The big interview is a production of Wired and Kaleidoscope Content this week's episode was shot on location in dc. Lisandro Perez Rey directed the shoot. Ben Finkel was director of photography, Ken Pexton was our sound operator and Randy Feldman was our camera operator. Efrat Kashai is our director of Content productions, Brandon Smith is our senior director, our showrunner is Ann Marie Fortoli and Kate Osborne is our Executive producer. Music and mixing by Pran Bandy this episode was fact checked by Daria Marchenkova. Check back here on Thursday for the latest episode of Uncanny Valley, where Wired's writers and editors add you to the Slack Group.

[Nicole Phelps]

Hi, I'm Nicole Phelps, the global fashion News and Features Director and co host of Vogue's podcast the Run Through. Each week on the show, our listeners get an all access pass to the world of Vogue with the latest fashion news and the most exciting voices in the industry. On Tuesdays, join me to hear interviews with influential leaders in the industry like Calvin Klein, Daniel Roseberry and Jonathan Anderson. On Thursdays, join Head of Editorial Content at Vogue, Chloe Mao and Head of Editorial Content at British Vogue Choma Nadi as they explore style and culture through the lens of fashion with guests like Martha Stewart, Kamala Harris and Tracee Ellis Ross. The Run through with Vogue New episodes every Tuesday and Thursday. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

From prx.