Uncanny Valley | WIRED

The Big Interview: Chris Hayes on Urgency and Attention

Released: March 24, 2026
Host: Katie Drummond, WIRED Global Editorial Director
Guest: Chris Hayes, Journalist & Host of "All In with Chris Hayes" (now "MSNOW" at MSNBC)

Episode Overview

This episode of Uncanny Valley features an in-depth conversation between Katie Drummond and Chris Hayes, focusing on the persistent urgency that dominates today's news cycle, the commodification of public attention, and the shifting intersection between technology, media, and power. Hayes draws on his experience covering a tumultuous political landscape—including the current Trump administration, wars abroad, and the AI revolution—to consider how journalists can navigate and influence a landscape where every issue is the "top story," attention is more fragmented than ever, and the stakes for democracy and society are immense.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Wired’s Evolution & Industry Counterculture

(03:21–05:02)

• Nostalgia for Wired’s early days: Chris shares childhood memories of reading Wired, noting its original “rebellious countercultural spirit.”
• Shift in "insurgent" role: Both note that where Wired once challenged establishment power, tech itself has become the establishment. WIRED’s current critical stance targets the very industry it once celebrated.
  • Chris Hayes: "What happened was the powers that be are the people that sat with the president at his inauguration… the insurgent vibe is now directed in a different direction." (04:45)

2. Performing Power & Conflict as Content

(05:02–09:34)

• News overload: Drummond asks how attention works in a world where “everything feels incessantly urgent.” Hayes reflects on the Trump administration’s tendency to “perform imperialism as content”—turning geopolitical events into media spectacle.
  • Chris Hayes: "They perform aggression, war, imperialism, foreign policy, all as content, all as means of gaining attention, holding attention." (07:03)
• Historical precedents: Hayes links today’s spectacle to the yellow press of the Spanish-American war, but emphasizes the “21st-century, postmodern, vertical video scroll” nature of today’s information deluge.

3. Journalism’s Role in the Attention Economy

(09:34–12:16)

• Balancing coverage: Hayes discusses how newsrooms can’t ignore powerful figures but warns against becoming stenographers or amplifiers for manipulative narratives.
  • Chris Hayes: “We try to a) not do war porn and b) not let him set the terms...In the end, Donald Trump...attempting to replace the constitutional order with...a personalist dictatorship, is the top story of our time.” (10:09)
• Attention on whose terms: He shares an instructive story about a botched Trump administration raid in Minnesota, where public attention turned to a tragic outcome—against the intended narrative.

4. The Commodification of Attention: Past & Present

(12:27–15:04)

• Attention as commodity: Discussing his book Sirens Call, Hayes traces the origins of "attention markets" to 19th-century billboards and the penny press. What’s new: the global, algorithmic scale at which tech platforms now operate.
  • Chris Hayes: “Now you have this sort of auction for eyeballs happening in nanoseconds, constantly.” (13:58)
• Algorithmic curation: Unlike traditional media, algorithmic platforms choose what resonates without editorial decision-making.

5. Living in the Vertical Video Era

(15:04–18:42)

• Encountering the slot machine: Both discuss the unpredictability of content virality in short-form video (“vertical video is a kind of terminal point…”), the challenge of competing for attention against not just other news, but all content.
  • Chris Hayes: “Every piece of content is at every moment pitted against every other piece of content ever created.” (18:05)
• Journalists’ participation: It’s now obligatory for news anchors to engage with these formats to reach mass audiences.

6. Attention and Political Power: Democrats’ Dilemma

(18:53–23:07)

• 2024 election lessons: Voters who paid close attention to the news favored Democrats–but most voters don’t. The old model of “raise money, buy TV ads” no longer works.
  • Chris Hayes: “You can’t just say, we’re gonna raise a lot of money and then run a lot of ads on what, the local news. Who’s gonna reach who, exactly?” (20:27)
  • On political strategy: “You better have a theory of [attention] that’s based on who you are. What you cannot do is...default to what had been the paint by numbers approach for literally decades.” (22:57)

7. Tech Industry and Political Power—A Blurred Line

(25:29–32:56)

• Tech’s rightward shift: Hayes observes that as the tech industry matured into power, its politics have become more conservative. He links this to wealth, groupthink ("pickled their brains in a brine of reaction"), and an existential dependency on government due to AI.
  • Chris Hayes: “...I just think there’s a kind of right online version of that that happened to the tech elite.” (27:13)
• How genuine is this shift? Drummond and Hayes debate whether this is driven by genuine ideology or simply business exigency.
• AI, state, and ethics: Close ties between AI startups (OpenAI, Anthropic) and government raise ethical concerns, especially as financial pressures on these companies increase.

8. AI Hype, Labor, and Job Displacement

(32:56–38:17)

• Polarized AI debate: Hayes situates himself as a “lame centrist” amid AI “doomers and boomers.” He worries about the real risks: mass labor displacement, and a lack of “first principles” thinking about what work (and society) should look like in the automation age.
  • Chris Hayes: “All of these jobs that people have right now...the world in which those are automated in a relatively short period of time is gonna cause some pretty profound dislocation.” (33:43)
• Left’s response: Part of the left resists even admitting these risks, not wanting to “cede to their propaganda.” Hayes calls for meaningful regulation and grassroots resistance.
  • Chris Hayes: “If all these jobs were automatable...what do we want people doing? What does society do?...This calls for some real first principles thinking.” (37:52)
• Personal LLM use: Hayes shares practical research cases but notes, “it’s just manifestly getting better. Like obviously.” (35:18)

9. Control, Alt, Delete: Technology Hits and Misses

(39:58–43:37)

• Quickfire game:
  • Control: AI. (“I guess I trust myself maybe more than Sam Altman…if I could control it, I’d figure out a humane method.” (40:28))
  • Alt (alter): Internet search—to make it work again. (“It was, I think, the quality of the product…has gotten so bad.” (41:02))
  • Delete: Cell phone calls. Hayes laments poor audio quality and the loss of “side tone,” which makes landline calls superior for communication. (“The highest level of failure that we tolerate from any technology in our lives.” (41:40))

Memorable Quotes

• On today’s news deluge:
  "It is like brain melting, mind numbing, reality warping kind of pace of news."
  — Katie Drummond (05:02)

• On content as imperial performance:
  "They perform aggression, war, imperialism, foreign policy, all as content, all as means of gaining attention, holding attention."
  — Chris Hayes (07:03)

• On the challenge of being a journalist today:
  "Every piece of content is at every moment pitted against every other piece of content ever created."
  — Chris Hayes (18:05)

• On AI’s rapid progress:
  "It’s just manifestly getting better. Like obviously, I mean just like this idea that it’s not is insane."
  — Chris Hayes (35:18)

• On regulating AI and social order:
  "If all these jobs were automatable...what do we want people doing? What does society do? Like, we’re just locked into, like, where are the good jobs going to be?"
  — Chris Hayes (37:52)

• On Internet Search:
  “I would love to alter Internet search so that it works again.…it was, I think the quality…has gotten so bad."
  — Chris Hayes (40:48)

• On technology frustration:
  "I just...want to get rid of cell phone calls and replace them with landline quality calls. I find cell phone...is the highest level of failure that we tolerate from any technology in our lives."
  — Chris Hayes (41:40)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:01:33: Start of interview, show context
• 00:03:21: Chris Hayes’ Wired fandom, early days of techno-counterculture
• 00:05:02: Current moment: news overload, war, Trump’s attention domination
• 00:09:34: Journalists’ challenge: how to cover the urgent without being manipulated
• 00:12:27: Commodifying attention—history and implications
• 00:15:04: The algorithmic attention economy and vertical video
• 00:18:53: Political communication, attention deficits, post-TV-ad strategy
• 00:25:29: Tech’s new relationship with government; AI’s political/financial pressure
• 00:32:56: AI boom/bust, labor fears, and left’s responses
• 00:39:58: "Control, Alt, Delete" rapid-fire game

Tone & Notable Moments

• The conversation is deeply analytical but friendly; Hayes brings wit, historical context, and critique without spiraling into cynicism.
• Multiple moments of mutual laughter and rueful acknowledgment of the absurdities of modern media and politics.
• Katie’s closing “I really applaud that” (re: side tone and phone calls) signals a note of wry hopefulness and camaraderie.

Final Notes

This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in the modern media environment, political communication, and the collision between technology and society. Hayes’ mix of historical perspective, lived experience, and contemporary analysis—framed by Drummond’s incisive questions—offers both a primer and a provocation on urgency, attention, and power in 2026.