How the Internet Could Help the Iranian People

Summary

Uncanny Valley | WIRED

Episode: How the Internet Could Help the Iranian People

Date: May 26, 2026

Host: Katie Drummond, WIRED Global Editorial Director
Guest: Jason Rezaian, Director of Press Freedom Initiatives, The Washington Post

---

Episode Overview

This episode of Uncanny Valley explores the current crisis in Iran following US-Israeli airstrikes, the resilience and repression of the Iranian regime, and the outsize importance of internet access to Iranian civil society. Host Katie Drummond interviews Jason Rezaian, Iranian-American journalist who was held as a political prisoner in Iran, about historical U.S.-Iranian relations, media propaganda battles, the strategic implications of internet blackouts, and what tangible support the U.S. and tech sector could actually offer to the Iranian people.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Historical & Current State of U.S.-Iran Relations

• Persistent Animus: Rezaian highlights that the U.S. and Iran have been in a state of conflict since 1979, with no true peace ever achieved since the Iranian Revolution.
  • "We've been at some level of conflict with Iran since 1979. Right. So we've never been at peace with the Islamic Republic." ([03:51])
• Recent Strikes & Regime Stability: Despite the assassination of Iranian leadership, the regime demonstrated remarkable continuity due to deep succession planning.
  • "I think that our analysis of Iran in Washington leaves a lot to be desired...there is a very big power structure that is built with Iranian ingenuity and creativity ... and they have lots of guns, right? So they're able to maintain control..." ([07:11])

2. Misreading Iranian Political Dynamics

• False Hopes of Regime Collapse: U.S.-centric foreign policy experts wrongly expected aerial strikes and targeted assassinations to create an opening for political uprising.
  • "Maybe even more incredible though, is that the regime has continued to function well." ([06:07])
  • "How are people who are unarmed and unable to connect to the Internet...going to rise up?" ([07:35])
• Regime vs. People: Clear distinction made between the government's brutal survival tactics and the desires of ordinary Iranians.
  • "The hands of the people of that country are tied in multiple ways." ([14:06])

3. The Centrality and Weaponization of Internet Access

• Tactical Blackouts: Since 2009, internet access has become a battleground; the Iranian regime leverages blackouts to disrupt protest and communication.
  • "Internet access is like oxygen as it is anywhere else in the world at this point." ([07:35])
  • "I remember very clearly in the wake of that 2009 election...how disorienting that is once you've become so accustomed to it..." ([21:38])
• Technological Possibilities Ignored: Despite advancements like Starlink and direct-to-cell satellite, the US has not capitalized on them to help Iranians stay online.
  • "We have technological capability to help people stay online in ways that we didn't have 17, 18 years ago...these things exist." ([08:09])
  • "I think it's one, not necessarily on their radar screens. Two, not a priority. Because I think if the right people knew about it, they'd do it today." ([24:23])

4. Impact of Information Blackouts on Civil Society

• Economic and Social Isolation: The massive blackout has devastated small businesses, everyday life, and cut Iranians off from the world.
  • "Instagram, for example, has been mostly open since 2012...a lot of Iranian businesses rely on as a means to advertise..." ([20:23])
  • "It's a country that relies and has for at least a decade on telegram...that's been taken away from them." ([21:06])
• Psychological Toll: Loss of information mirrors the isolation Rezaian felt during imprisonment.
  • "In a year and a half that I was in prison, I didn't have access to the Internet. And it's incredibly disorienting." ([22:23])

5. Propaganda & Social Media ‘Meme Wars’

• Evolved State Propaganda: Iranian state and activist communications have become more effective, less reactive, and tailored to global youth.
  • "Iranian propaganda from the time I was detained until now has improved leaps and bounds in efficacy." ([18:17])
  • "This is real trolling. Right? And it works." ([19:30])
• Comparison to U.S. Efforts: U.S. government propaganda often less effective or more parochial than grassroots Iranian efforts.

6. The People’s Perspective and Policy Failures

• Everyday Iranian Life Overlooked: Western coverage and policy often miss the complex, daily struggles of 93 million Iranians—caught between the regime and foreign interests.
  • "There is not a good guy in this story. The good guy is the people of Iran..." ([25:23])
• Sanctions and War Make Things Worse: U.S. interventions, paradoxically, repeatedly undermine Iran's civil society.
  • "Every time we've gotten involved, it's kind of set that clock back." ([15:38])
• Escalation’s Human Toll: External military or sanctions pressure triggers the regime to increase repression and executions.
  • "When there is external force and pressure on an authoritarian state...their response...is always to take out more revenge and force on their population..." ([27:03])

7. Press Freedom, Exile Journalism, and U.S. Institutions

• Decline in Press Freedom: Direct threats to journalists (especially women), mass layoffs, and attacks on journalistic independence, both abroad and increasingly in the U.S.
  • "The decline of press freedoms in democratic societies has been going on since before Trump." ([36:09])
• Practical Challenges for Exile Journalists: High hurdles to establishing new lives in the U.S. (work authorization, banking, housing).
  • "The barriers of entry into a life in the United States are really high at this point. They didn't always used to be that way." ([38:24])
• New Models Needed: Combining legacy news resources with creator/independent journalism for resilience and depth.
  • "The future of both the creator space, but also the traditional one has to come together." ([40:26])
• Washington Post's Role: Some support for press freedom initiatives but ambivalence about broader institutional direction.
  • "I haven't seen Jeff Bezos in several years...for this particular work that I've been developing at the Post, there's been institutional support..." ([41:14])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

"Internet access is like oxygen as it is anywhere else in the world at this point."
— Jason Rezaian ([07:35])

"How are people who are unarmed and unable to connect to the Internet...going to rise up?"
— Jason Rezaian ([07:35])

"The good guy is the people of Iran... Neither [the U.S., the Islamic Republic, nor Israel] have the interests of the people of Iran in their agenda. And I defy you to show me otherwise."
— Jason Rezaian ([25:23])

"It is incredibly brutal to its own population… But ...this regime is not a match for the United States and our allies."
— Jason Rezaian ([13:58])

"The decline of press freedoms in democratic societies has been going on since before Trump."
— Jason Rezaian ([36:09])

"We put people on the moon. Right. We've figured out a lot of much more complex challenges. [Connecting Iran] is kind of an obvious piece of the puzzle that hasn't been put in place yet."
— Jason Rezaian ([24:43])

Light Segment: "Control/Alt/Delete" ([46:01–49:24])

• Control: Wants to master AI tools (e.g., large language models) to enhance but not replace his writing.
• Alt: Would alter consumer gadgets to make them more durable.
• Delete: Would delete weather forecasts—finds them more inaccurate than helpful.

---

Important Timestamps

• 03:51: Rezaian on the historic, ongoing hostility between U.S. and Iran
• 06:07: Iran’s succession planning and resilience after leadership strikes
• 07:35: Essential role of internet access; why aid must focus on connectivity
• 13:58: U.S. missteps, sanctions, and their effects on Iranian civil society
• 18:17: Propaganda and meme wars: how the Iranian regime has adapted
• 20:23–22:35: The psychological impact of internet blackouts in Iran
• 24:23: Policy failures, and the overlooked simplicity of technical fixes
• 25:23: The people of Iran as collateral damage in superpower games
• 36:09: Decline of press freedom globally and domestically
• 41:14: The Washington Post’s support of Rezaian’s press-freedom work
• 46:01–49:24: Control/Alt/Delete game: reflections on tech and durability

---

Summary Takeaways

• Internet connectivity is not just a technical issue; it's a frontline in the fight for civil society in Iran, yet often ignored in U.S. policy and media coverage.
• U.S. and Israeli military actions, however successful tactically, rarely benefit the Iranian public and often enable harsher regime repression.
• Information blackouts, both physical and digital, amplify humanitarian crises and undermine prospects for organic social change.
• Declines in press freedom and challenges for exile journalists mirror the broader struggle for truthful information on regimes like Iran's.
• There are practical, achievable interventions (like satellite internet access) that could have immediate, significant impacts—but political will is lacking.
• The plight and aspirations of ordinary Iranians remain sidelined amid chess matches between states and propaganda battles online.

Transcript

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

This show is supported by Outshift, Cisco's incubation engine. Today's AI agents operate in silos, limiting their true potential. We've been focused on building bigger, smarter models, but scaling up is just one approach. To reach superintelligence together, we need to do more, we need to scale out, and we actually have a blueprint from 70,000 years ago. Humans didn't just get smarter individually, they the cognitive revolution transformed society because we began sharing knowledge, goals and innovation, agents are now at that same inflection point. They can connect, but they can't think together. That's why Outshift by Cisco is building the Internet of Cognition, transforming AI from isolated systems into orchestrated superintelligence. By creating an open, interoperable infrastructure, Outshift by Cisco is enabling agents and humans to share intent to context and reasoning. The cognitive evolution for agents is here. Explore the Internet of [e-mail] that's outshift.com

[Katie Drummond]

Every company says AI will make employees more productive, but most employees are still stuck waiting on it, waiting for app access, waiting for password resets, waiting for someone to fix a laptop issue so they can get back to work. That operational drag adds up fast, and IT teams are overwhelmed trying to keep up. Servil was built to automate. Automate that work. You describe what you want automated in plain English and Servil builds it for you. No complicated workflow builders, no consultants, just faster support and fewer tickets, slowing everyone down. Servil positions IT as the AI powered operational backbone of the company, not just a support function. The company guarantees customers can automate 50% of it tickets and backs it up with a free four week pilot. Learn more or start a free four week pilot at serval.com uncanny that's S E R V A L.com uncanny servil.com uncanny. From Wired, this is the big interview where we'll get to know the people beyond the headlines in conversations that explore the intersection of technology, power and culture. I'm Wired's Global Editorial Director, Katie Drummond. It's been nearly three months since the US And Israel launched strikes on Iran, targeting its nuclear facilities and infrastructure. Gas prices are rising, traffic in the crucial Strait of Hormuz is being disrupted, and there doesn't seem to be an end in sight. To help us make sense of this and what could be next, I'm joined by Jason Rezaian, Director of Press Freedom Initiatives at the Washington Post. Jason has a perspective on this conflict that few others do. He's an Iranian American, a former Tehran correspondent, and in 2014 he was detained in Iran's notorious, even prison, accused by the regime of being an American spy. Jason spent nearly a year and a half in prison as world powers were embroiled in negotiations with Iran over its nuclear program. This year marks a decade since Jason's release in a prisoner swap. Jason, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the big interview.

[Jason Rezaian]

Thanks for having me, Katie. I appreciate it.

[Katie Drummond]

Delighted that you're here. So let's start with the latest. We are talking on a Wednesday, about a week before this episode is going to come out. Right now, there is what I would describe, I think, as a fragile ceasefire in place. Questions remain over how long it will hold. The US has not ruled out additional strikes. And there are fears, especially with Iran's latest statements, that the war could spread not only beyond its borders, beyond the borders of the Middle East. That's the big concern as it stands today. What is your sense and your interpretation of the situation right now?

[Jason Rezaian]

I want to start by saying that, you know, we've been at some level of conflict with Iran since 1979. Right. So we've never been at peace with the Islamic Republic. One of the first things that they did was take American diplomats and held them hostage in our embassy in Tehran. So this enmity, animosity is not new, I think, where we are right now in this ceasefire. If I had to guess, I don't think that the Trump administration, President Trump in particular, wants to attack Iran again. It seems pretty obvious to me from his statements. Right. I was gonna do it last night, but, you know, I got talked out of it.

[Katie Drummond]

I changed my mind.

[Jason Rezaian]

Yeah.

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah.

[Jason Rezaian]

So, you know, I think it's pretty clear that the economic pain that we're feeling at home has changed his attitude and desire for regime change. If that was his desire in the first place, I don't think that if you asked him, you'd have a clear answer of why he got into this in the first place. That being said, I mean, I think Israel, in particular, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, wants to keep going. I think he's the wild card in this situation. And then also the level of pain and suffering that the Iranian regime is ready to absorb and ready to force its public to absorb, I think is beyond what we imagined. Right. I also don't want to conflate the people of Iran with the regime. Of course, regime is ready to keep taking hits, to keep fighting. They've been in a fighting posture with the United States, but with other countries for the entirety of their existence, for the last 47 years. That's not to say that they want to keep fighting. I don't think it's necessarily in their long term interest to do so. So I think, you know, we will see skirmishes. Pretty incredible that Israel and the United States were able to take out so many top layers of the Iranian leadership both last summer and then in the strikes that started earlier this year. Maybe even more incredible though, is that the regime is continued to function well.

[Katie Drummond]

And this is actually a question I have for you. I remember several months ago when these 2026 US Israel attacks happened. They took out the Supreme Leader. They made a big show of it. It was a big sort of public show of force on their part. And I remember sort of thinking, but surely the Iranian regime has layers upon layers of succession planning. And indeed they did. I mean, I'm a news junkie, but certainly by no means an expert in Iran, but it was very obvious to me that that was the case and would be the case. Did the United States and Israel simply miss something there?

[Jason Rezaian]

I think that our analysis of Iran in Washington leaves a lot to be desired. I think there were a lot of people in the sort of foreign policy, the expert space who said this Supreme Leader is the totalitarian leader, Islamic theocracy, and when he dies, it'll all fall apart. Well, that, that was never going to happen.

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah.

[Jason Rezaian]

It doesn't mean that there isn't dissent. It doesn't mean that people want to see this regime perpetuate. But there is a very big power structure that is built with Iranian ingenuity and creativity, which means, you know, there's horse trading, jockeying, lots of vying for influence and power within that system. And they have lots of guns, right?

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah.

[Jason Rezaian]

So they're able to maintain control for, I don't want to say the foreseeable future. I don't want to put an expiration date on it. But they have control right now. And I think that what we missed was the idea that an aerial campaign that was frankly incredibly successful and took out lots and lots of leaders beyond the Supreme Leader, a lot of officials, former speaker of Parliament who was main negotiator in earlier nuclear negotiations and many others that that would lead to somehow an opening. And President Trump talked about this for people to rise up. Well, how are people who are unarmed and unable to connect to the Internet? And I talk about this a lot to the extent that people say, is it really that simple? Get people back online? No, it's not that simple. But the fact that we're not able to help them stay online. And Internet access is like oxygen as it is anywhere else in the world at this point. Going back to 2009, when. And I want to talk about President Ahmadinejad, because he's back in the news again this week. Right. But going back to his contested reelection in 2009, the first time that the Islamic Republic cut off the Internet, the United States has said, we're not going to let this happen again. We're gonna do whatever we can to keep them online. Right. And your audience and your colleagues at Wired know a lot more about how the Internet works than I do. But we have technological capability to help people stay online in ways that we didn't have 17, 18 years ago. Whether it's Starlink or direct to cell satellite Internet access, these things exist.

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah.

[Jason Rezaian]

And they're a hell of a lot cheaper than the missiles and bombs that we have been the American taxpayer has been subsidizing.

[Katie Drummond]

And I wanted to ask you about the Internet blackout. We'll talk more about that. But I wanted to back up for a minute to talk about this moment. In February, right. The US And Israel launched strikes in Iran for you as an Iranian American, to go from protests that felt there was potential, real potential for a monumental change, even maybe a step towards democracy, to what is unfolding now. You wrote an article about sort of the excitement and the hope you were feeling as Iranians took to the streets in protest against the regime. Fast forward to now. We're in a very different scenario.

[Jason Rezaian]

I want to acknowledge that the administration did a better job of acknowledging the reality that Iranians were rising up against their repressive regime better than previous administrations had and faster. Right. So the idea that Donald Trump wanted to have the backs of protesters, support protesters, it's a nice notion, and it would have been a nice about face for a president who has, unfortunately, going back to his first term, done nothing but make the lives of Iranian people harder. Right. There's a travel ban against people of several countries, the first iteration of that, which he did almost immediately coming into office in 2017. It was fewer than 10 countries that were affected at that time. But if you looked at the data, more than half of visa applicants would have been from Iran. So you can't really say that you're supporting the aspirations of Iranian civil society and institute of travel ban that blocks them from studying in our universities and taking part in all the wonderful things about the United States, not helping them stay on the Internet when they're blocked from it. I would like to see the United States, which is still the strongest power in the world. Right. If you take all of our, our assets as a superpower, militarily, economically, but really importantly culturally and in terms of soft power and resources that we can provide to support freeing up societies, I'd like us to better employ that last bit. And I think that's the missing piece of the puzzle here.

[Katie Drummond]

Well, in terms of the way of going about it, I'm curious for your take on what was the goal here? What is the goal here? Did they know?

[Jason Rezaian]

And I think going back to the very first days of this and then to the first set of attacks last June, this question of is there daylight between the Israeli and American plans for this? And U.S. officials said absolutely no daylight. We're in this together, we have the same go. I don't think that was ever true. I don't even think they realize what, what the goal is. Right. And in, in a situation where you have not had your own diplomatic ties with a country the size and scope of Iran, you have 93 million people, biggest combined oil and gas reserves in the world. A top three national security challenge for half a century. Right. But it's really like a political football. We should have a national policy towards Iran, not one that changes every two or four years based on elections that we have in this country. So I think we missed a lot and we continue to miss a lot. And if the reporting that the New York Times had about Israel and the United States hoping to free up Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the former president, from house arrest to potentially lead Iran after the regime fell, it's just quixotic and kind of ridiculous.

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah, it is ridiculous.

[Jason Rezaian]

If those are the plans, then there's not really.

[Katie Drummond]

Then there was no plan.

[Jason Rezaian]

There was no friggin plan.

[Katie Drummond]

No plan. Now you were accused of espionage by the regime. You were detained for 544 days. Watching all of this unfold now from the U.S. i mean, I'm sure mixed feelings doesn't even begin to describe what you're feeling, but you know so much more about how brutal this regime can be to its own people than obviously the average American. I would say, you know, than 99% of people, given what you went through. Talk to me about that. I mean, what should Americans know about the Iranian regime?

[Jason Rezaian]

What they should know is that it is incredibly brutal to its own population. It's capable of metting out chaos and violence to people in the region and in isolated instances, people on US soil, on European soil, but that ultimately this regime is not a match for the United States and our allies. Right. I mean, I'm not going to call it a paper tiger because you can see that it's holding its own. But they fight asymmetrically. Sometimes we say that that is a sign that they are a sponsor of terror. And I'm not going to get into those designations. But really what it means is if you force them into conventional ways of dealing with problems, they can't really do it. The future of that country has to be in the hands of the people of that country. The hands of the people of that country are tied in multiple ways. And over a 25 year period that we've recognized their desire for change going back to the late 1990s when they elected Mohammed Khatami, a reformer who espoused a much more open approach to the world. Every time they've had the opportunity in these elections, they've gone for the person who says, we want to open up the society, our path towards success is opening up. If you're looking at it on balance, we haven't really done anything to support those aspirations. And I would argue that every time we've gotten involved, it's kind of set that clock back. If I think about the early 2000s when I first started traveling to Iran, I made my first trip to Iran in the spring of 2001, before 9 11. And then six months later after 9 11. And then in 2003, I moved there for the better part of a year, kept going back and forth until ultimately I moved there in 2009. There were many moments when the society, I think, was closer to opening up and really reclaiming some autonomy and control from this regime. And at every turn we had sanctions or a military attack or cyber attacks that kind of set those things back.

[Katie Drummond]

How much of what's happening in Iran right now are we actually hearing about?

[Jason Rezaian]

I mean, look, even when I was there, before I was arrested, I can't say that there was a sort of a flourishing journalistic core. There was a handful of us working there and then local media at that time, let's say there were 20 foreign correspondents based there. It's a country of 93 million people. It's massive, it's huge. And from the day that I was arrested until now 12 years later, the access of independent and international media has only shrunk. We don't have good access into it, we don't have good windows into it. And I think when I look at the information war that's being fought on social media and also, you know, lots of deep Fakes and very difficult landscape to try and verify information from is very confusing for the average American, you know, And I think if you look at the Israel, Gaza conflict, post October 7, and Ukraine, Russia war, very similar, but this is the first one that America's actually directly involved in. And ordinary people, when they watch this news without any context and without real open access to information from that country, how do you expect them to make sense of it?

[Katie Drummond]

Well, and this was a question I had for you was the quote, unquote, meme wars. Right. Sort of the social media propaganda war that's playing out. You have the Trump administration putting out like, just these. These bizarre, like, movie clip propaganda, you know, warmongering videos. You then have, you know, pro Iranian activists, young creators putting out things like these Lego videos. I don't know if you've seen them. How are you seeing sort of the. The propaganda piece of this conflict?

[Jason Rezaian]

I would first of all say that Iranian propaganda from the time I was detained until now has improved leaps and bounds in efficacy. Right, yeah.

[Katie Drummond]

My impression would be, and correct me if you, if you think I'm wrong, would be that more Americans probably saw those Lego videos than saw the Trump administration's bizarre propaganda.

[Jason Rezaian]

And not just Americans, people from all over the world.

[Katie Drummond]

Sure.

[Jason Rezaian]

Look, I don't think that there are guys sitting in Tehran who have a full understanding of the cultural contexts that we're dealing with here, but they've done a great job of outsourcing that to whoever. Whoever's. Whoever is doing that. And it's less reactive. You know, when I was taken, and I've seen this play out in other instances of hostages that they've taken, there's just like a kind of immediate campaign to sully the reputation of that person. You know, we've got this evidence of X, Y and Z, and the story that they tell is very much from their own point of view for their own audience, for their own domestic audience. This is different. Right. This is real trolling. Right?

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah.

[Jason Rezaian]

And it works. It makes people think to themselves, wow, you know, when they bring the Epstein files into it and gun violence into our country, you know, they would talk about those things on their state television, but talk about it in their, from their own ideological lens that this is ungodly. This is, you know, un Islamic. Look at, you know, how those infidels live over there. This something very different. It's designed to be consumed by young people here. And in that way, it's not only more potentially effective, but also more radicalizing.

[Katie Drummond]

I want to talk about this, the Internet blackout. And for listeners who are not sort of following this closely, someone living in Iran right now, what can they not do? What can they not access that we take for granted here?

[Jason Rezaian]

Look, in normal times, they can access almost everything through VPNs, things like Twitter and, you know, Facebook, TikTok, you know, highly filtered. So, you know, it takes some time and some doing to get online. But Instagram, for example, has been mostly open since 2012. Right. Like it's it. And it's something that a lot of Iranian businesses rely on as a means to advertise because it's really the only space that they had right now with this Internet blackout, almost all of that is shut off. It's also a country that relies and has for at least a decade on telegram.

[Katie Drummond]

Right, right.

[Jason Rezaian]

So, you know, that's a way that people have been sharing information and communicating for over a decade that's been taken away from them. You do have a handful of people who have what they call white SIM cards. Right. People who do have access. And so anybody that you see posting from Iran right now, you should be very skeptical about what they're saying because they are doing it with the approval or acceptance of the state.

[Katie Drummond]

That's what that would mean. The white symbol.

[Jason Rezaian]

Yeah. And I'll tell you, over the last couple of months, there have been a handful of instances where I'll get a DM from somebody in Iran or see somebody post a story and then immediately try and communicate with them and maybe have a few messages back and forth before it gets cut. I remember very clearly in the wake of that 2009 election and the protests, the violence and the Internet shutdown that followed it, how disorienting that is once you've become so accustomed to it. And I can tell you, in a year and a half that I was in prison, I didn't have access to the Internet. And it's incredibly disorienting.

[Katie Drummond]

Sort of like isolating.

[Jason Rezaian]

It's so isolating. And it's also, you don't realize until you don't have it how often you rely on it to answer a question in a day.

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah.

[Jason Rezaian]

From things that you need to know to more mundane pieces of information. You know, what was the name of the actor in that movie that. Who won the world series in 1987? Those sorts of things that are sort of standard parts of your life. You're starved of all of that. Right. And imagine that on a mass scale. I've seen a couple of really good essays where former political prisoners have written about the feeling of imprisonment that not having access to the Internet sort of replicates for them. And I talk about this over and over and over again, hoping that someone in a position of power in the United States is listening and thinks to themselves, well, maybe there is something that we can do.

[Katie Drummond]

Well, and what could they do that they're not doing?

[Jason Rezaian]

So, I mean, look, I think the silly idea is to activate and drive, drop a lot of Starlink terminals.

[Katie Drummond]

Come on, Elon.

[Jason Rezaian]

I would support a contract, you know, a US Government contract to do that because it would cost less than a couple of these missiles.

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah, sure.

[Jason Rezaian]

And we own the airspace at this point. You know, they don't have air defenses. And then, you know, the use of this. I think every cell phone, every smartphone produced after 2020 or 2021 has the ability to connect to satellite Internet requires flipping switches. To do that, we require an act of Congress or an executive order and probably some guarantees to cellular providers that if you provide cellular access to Iran, we're not going to sanction you, we're not going to enforce this.

[Katie Drummond]

Do you have any educated guess or informed hypothesis about why these very simple switches are not being.

[Jason Rezaian]

I just don't think it's on people's radar screens, and I don't think that

[Katie Drummond]

you should connect a country of how many people? 93 million. 93 million people back to the Internet.

[Jason Rezaian]

I think it's one, not necessarily on their radar screens. Two, not a priority. Because I think if. If the right people knew about it, they'd do it today.

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah, well, hopefully someone's listening. I mean, seems exceedingly obvious.

[Jason Rezaian]

It's pretty obvious. Right. And it's one of these things where we put people on the moon. Right. We've figured out a lot of much more complex challenges. This is a country of 93 million people. The smartphone penetration is incredibly high. People use these things. It's kind of an obvious piece of the puzzle that hasn't been put in place yet.

[Katie Drummond]

What are we all missing in all the talk about the strait and gas prices and the Trump administration, what are we missing about those 93 million people? Right. The daily lives, the aspirations, the future.

[Jason Rezaian]

None of us are immune to, you know, rising costs and how that impacts our lives, but it is a very minor. I don't want to say inconvenience, because I know it's more than that, but it's minor in comparison with the matters of life and death and liberty that these people are faced with on a daily basis. Have so many instances of Iranians stepping forward and Saying, hey, look, we want to connect with the outside world. We want to be able to study in your universities. We want to be able to learn from your institutions. We want you to come and invest in our country. Actually, the regime even courts foreign investment. And, you know, I would say, hey, foreign company, don't send your staff there until they make some guarantees that they're not going to take people hostage, because they do that all the time. So it's a very complicated situation because there is not a good guy in this story. The good guy is the people of Iran, the United States of America, Islamic Republic of Iran, and Israel. Neither of those three entities have the interests of the people of Iran in their agenda. And I defy you to show me otherwise. I mean, a lot of people got to deny we love our people, or the Israelis or Americans say, no, we've got their back. No, you haven't. You haven't done anything credible to support them. How do I know that? Because their life gets worse and worse and worse. And you can't just pin it on one group. The Islamic Republic will pin it on America. We pin it on the Islamic Republic in the middle. People are saying, hey, look, just help us. And there have been many, many, many people who've said consistently, if you're gonna start this war, keep going to the end, because they're gonna treat us much worse. You know, when there is external force and pressure on an authoritarian state, and the Islamic Republic is a prime example, their response, their reaction, is always to take out more revenge and force on their population. It's not an act of vengeance, it's an act of survival. If the people sense weakness from the air, they're going to respond with incredible force against them on the ground. And that's what they've been doing. The execution rate is as high this year as it was last year, and last year was the highest rate of executions that they've had since the early 1980s. It's not rocket science, and unfortunately, I know and love a lot of people in that country, and I'm not willing to concede that their lives can be collateral damage in the ideological struggle between big powers.

[Katie Drummond]

We're going to take a quick break, and we'll be right back.

[Podcast Advertiser/Other Hosts]

Ever notice how the second you Google something, suddenly every ad you see is about it, or you try to watch something while traveling and it's just blocked? Yeah. The Internet isn't as open as we think. That's why I started using ProtonVPN. ProtonVPN is a secure VPN service designed for people who want to prioritize their digital privacy and security. It keeps what you do online private and lets you access the Internet like it should work. Open, secure and on your terms. It all works seamlessly so you can be confident you're getting an extensive server network, high speed connections, integrated ad blockers and compatibility services without restrictions. In over 145 countries, it's easy to get started. Right now ProtonVPN is offering our listeners 70% off a two year plan. When you go to ProtonVPN.com uncanny that's P R-O-T O-N VPN.com uncanny for 70% off your two year plan, that's ProtonVPN.com uncanny. Hey, small business owners, let's talk about how Found can help you wrangle your finances once and for all. When was the last time you felt like you had your business finances totally under control? Every expense categorized, every receipt tracked, every invoice sent. Oh, and you were prepared for tax season. If the answer is never, you're not alone. And that's what Found is for. Found eliminates the clutter by giving you one platform that handles it. Banking, bookkeeping, invoices and taxes. No more paying for multiple subscriptions and dealing with clunky, outdated apps. Found is reimagining what business banking should be. By putting your bookkeeping, invoices and tax tools directly into your business checking account, they make it easy to regain control of your business finances so you can get back to doing what you love. Take back control of your business. Today, open a Found account for [e-mail] that's f o u n d dot com. Found is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services are provided by lead bank member fdic. Join the hundreds of thousands who've already streamlined their finances with Found.

[Katie Drummond]

We are in uncharted territory.

[Podcast Advertiser/Other Hosts]

Staff writer Evan Osnos on the New Yorker Radio Hour. I think all of us right now

[Katie Drummond]

are trying to make sense of an avalanche of news every day and there

[Podcast Advertiser/Other Hosts]

aren't very many places where you can

[Katie Drummond]

go and understand how something looks in the grand scope of history and context. That's, that's what I come to the New Yorker for.

[Podcast Advertiser/Other Hosts]

I'm David Remnick and each week my colleagues and I try to make sense of what's happening in this chaotic world. And I hope you'll join us for the New Yorker Radio Hour.

[Katie Drummond]

When you think about possible outcomes and you, you talked a bit about this at the beginning, but Trump is in this boondoggle for lack of a better word. Right. He doesn't seem to want to be in the war that he's gotten himself into. It's not totally clear why he's in it in the first place. Israel, obviously a critical X factor here, but if the United States needs to untangle itself from this mess, how likely is a scenario where the Iranian regime essentially wins?

[Jason Rezaian]

I mean, I think it's a real possibility.

[Katie Drummond]

And, and then, and then what comes from there? What does that mean for the Iranian people, for the geopolitical order?

[Jason Rezaian]

I'm bullish on the, the future of the Iranian people, but when I say that it's a country that's existed for basically 3,000 years, the short term prospects don't look particularly good. We have to have an approach to dealing with this country and supporting its society. Two separate things. Defang this regime, put it to sleep if we can, but not at the expense of the civil society and the livelihoods and life of the people in it. And unfortunately, this is not an answer that is very satisfying to most people. This is not a two month or a three month or a five month proposition. It's something that we should have been investing in for 20 years or more and we haven't. I engage with people in the US Government pretty regularly on these issues. You'd be shocked at how few Iran experts are for a challenge of its magnitude. We've deemed it this massive challenge. We really don't put the same kind of resources into having expertise in it, having Persian speakers, you know, in government, there's probably more people who do strategic communications on Belgium than there is on Iran.

[Katie Drummond]

This is not just a Trump thing. Right. This goes back to many, many administration.

[Jason Rezaian]

Why I think we have this approach to countries like Iran and Cuba, maybe a handful of others that were these very staunch allies of ours that flipped through revolutions. And there's a pride element to it that these regimes replaced client states of ours and did so while giving us the finger and have been able to survive, not thrive. And it's, you know, it's ultimately the people of these countries that pay for it.

[Katie Drummond]

Now, you haven't been back to Iran in, I think over 10 years.

[Jason Rezaian]

Yeah.

[Katie Drummond]

Under what conditions would you feel safe going back?

[Jason Rezaian]

You know, I've thought about this a lot and I've thought about it a lot more recently. I was at dinner recently with my wife and a human rights lawyer who defends lots of Iranian civil society actors and journalists and another friend who was recently freed from imprisonment. And we were talking about our collective desire to visit Iran again. And I think that unfortunately, in my case, the regime did such a kind of a long term propaganda campaign against me after I was released in 2019. They produced a 30 episode television series on their state television at that point.

[Katie Drummond]

About you.

[Jason Rezaian]

Yeah, I wasn't Jason Rezaian. I was Michael Hashemian. And you know, you see the pictures of it, you know, it's clearly supposed to be me. Although, you know, the character wears a trench coat and an ascot and has one of those cigarettes on the long.

[Katie Drummond]

Well, at least they made you look really cool.

[Jason Rezaian]

I don't think the guy looked very cool. Kind of.

[Katie Drummond]

That's too bad.

[Jason Rezaian]

But anyway, I mean, it was the sort of thing that I joke about it and I joked about it at the time, but, you know, I was getting credible death threats and I, you know, and they re air it. So I think that I don't know that I'll, I'll be able to go back. I hope that I can. Yeah, I hope things change dramatically. I get lots and lots of messages from people that are very positive inside the country. I meet people all the time who've recently left Iran and arrived in the West. And, you know, I think in all those interactions, people have shown a layer of knowledge and complexity about the circumstances that I faced. And that's encouraging. But just knowing their track record of hostage taking and targeted assassinations.

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah.

[Jason Rezaian]

Sadly, I just don't think it's happening anytime soon.

[Katie Drummond]

I want to turn for a minute to talk about press freedom. Bigger picture. You've been a longtime advocate for press freedom around the world. It's a cause that's important to me too. How are you looking at that imperative in this political moment right in the US and abroad, in the context of the Trump administration? I mean, what stands out to you? What should listeners know?

[Jason Rezaian]

So the decline of press freedoms in democratic societies has been going on since before Trump.

[Katie Drummond]

It has.

[Jason Rezaian]

Right. And in this country, going back to September 11th and beyond. And I think in a lot of instances in other parts of the world, they've used the national security protocols that we created to suspend Miranda rights and due process. They've kind of weaponized this against journalists and others in their countries. Right. So when I was taken and said, okay, you're being accused of national security crimes, we don't have to give you access to a lawyer. And, you know, I'd get into these long conversations about, you know, Guantanamo Bay with my interrogators. Right. And you can see that, like they're using this as a justification. And then I think there's been this sort of trend of dehumanizing journalists, oftentimes female journalists. Maria Ressa, Nobel Prize winning journalist from the Philippines. Rana Ayub, a Washington Post contributor from India. It's all designed not only to silence the individual, but to silence others and to deter others from getting into this work. Then there's this whole other element of the problem, which is economic and the business models of journalism. You guys understand this very well here too. And we deal with it all the time.

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah.

[Jason Rezaian]

And I think the ecosystem of press freedom defenders, and when I say that it's a big community of individuals and organizations, is catching up to the problems at hand. You know, there was a time when a strong letter from a US Senator was all that was required.

[Katie Drummond]

That's quaint.

[Jason Rezaian]

Or a statement of condemnation. Those things don't do anything anymore. They take journalists prisoner because it's audacious, because it's designed to scare people into silence. So over the past few years and recently at the Washington Post, been developing ways to support mostly journalists in exile because there's been this tidal wave, thousands upon thousands of journalists, an almost endless number of instances of journalists who have either been imprisoned or have been forced to flee their homelands because of the work that they do finding their ways to freedom in Europe, but oftentimes in the United States as well. Then new hurdles for them when they get here. I work with an NGO that handles a lot of the immigration challenges of people in those circumstances. And we've been able to get what we call humanitarian parole, which is sort of like an emergency entry into the United States. But if you get here, then you have to apply for asylum. And once you apply for asylum, not when the application is approved, but once it starts being processed, then it's another 150 days before you can get a work authorization. You can't open a bank account without work authorization. Without a bank account, you can't at least rent an apartment. I mean, the barriers of entry into a life in the United States are really high at this point. They didn't always used to be that way. So we're trying to create some tools, mechanisms, opportunities for journalists in those circumstances to not only get out of harm's way and get themselves up and running in the United States, but to help them tool up so that they can credibly and within the framework that our media systems have constructed for itself, contribute to the work that we do. That's my big goal right now when it comes to press freedom. Take people who have been Spat out by the countries that they're from because of the coverage of those countries. Places where we can't even send reporters to.

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah.

[Jason Rezaian]

And then help them, equip them to support our news gathering. I think it's really vital and I think in the kind of creator journalism space, I really believe that the future of both the creator space, but also the traditional one has to come together. Some hybriding, using the benefits and assets and resources that we have in our newsrooms, with the nimbleness, the creativity and the ingenuity of independent journalists. If we're going to survive, we're going to have to survive together, I think. I don't know if everybody agrees, but that's me.

[Katie Drummond]

I have to ask you about the elephant in the room. When we're talking about press freedom, we're talking about international reporting, we're talking about the business of journalism. Your owner at the Washington Post has not been without criticism. You know, mass layoffs, including in your international bureaus, an opinion section that has. Has been pivoted in an overtly ideological way, I would argue. Do you feel like you have the support at the Washington Post and the support at the Bezos level to do the work that you so deeply believe in?

[Jason Rezaian]

I haven't seen Jeff Bezos in several years. When I was released from prison, he came and picked me up in Germany, I remember. And we've had, you know, opportunities to talk about, you know, some of these issues. Not about the layoffs, which I think was not only gutting for the entire organization, but for readers as well. But on a. On a kind of very direct level, he's engaged with me indirectly on specific cases of exile journalists and how we can support them through editors, other intermediaries. So I do think that for this particular work that I've been developing at the Post, there's been institutional support, and that support has grown over the last couple years to the extent that we just piloted a training program of exile journalists. But I think that there's still a lot to be worked out and figured out. Conversations about whether the Post and other news organizations should be considered a public trust or for profit businesses. At this point, it's a for profit business and I work for it.

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah. Like, so, you know, I know the feeling.

[Jason Rezaian]

So, you know, I think whether I feel good about the direction that it's going or not is, I don't want to say irrelevant, but on this particular patch of trying to answer the questions of how we make this work viable, how we continue to cover places where we can't send people anymore. How we turn the lights back on in places where they've been turned off. I can only say that that particular lane has, I don't want to say, gotten endless support, because it's not.

[Katie Drummond]

I mean, this is incredibly difficult and expensive and complicated work.

[Jason Rezaian]

But we're testing things out, and we're testing out new models that if they work, I think we might be in a good spot. I'd be lying, though, if I didn't say that I watched so many incredible colleagues have their jobs eliminated, only to see them move on to our direct competitors, and proud to see them continuing to do incredible work. I hope that there's an opportunity that some of them come back and work for us in the future.

[Katie Drummond]

Well, Jeff, if you're listening, think about it. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

[Podcast Advertiser/Other Hosts]

NPR believes in your right to be curious about the big questions and the unexpected ones. That's what Shortwave, their science podcast, is all about. When we stop to ask questions, the world gets more interesting. Shortwave spends each episode answering one big one like why do we have nightmares? How does AI affect my energy bill? And how can trash be good for the environment? It's science, but not the kind you remember from school. It's playful and full of wonder. Science is for everyone on shortwave, the hosts take your questions very seriously without taking themselves too seriously. They follow your curiosity wherever it leads so you can discover something new right alongside them. I personally really love the episode about where the moon came from. That's something I'd always wondered about, and now I don't have to wonder anymore. Short Wave makes me curious and then gives me the answers. Follow NPR's Shortwave podcast and exercise your right to wonder.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

Support comes from wise the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the globe. Fed up with losing out to hidden fees? When you send your money abroad with your everyday bank, choose the smart way Wise you can count on the exchange rate you'd usually find on Google. No unwelcome surprises. Plus, ditch that where's my money feeling. Most transfers arrive in under 20 seconds. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees. Be smart, get wise. Download the wise app today. T's and C's apply.

[Podcast Advertiser/Other Hosts]

For more than seven years, the Tech Brew Ride Home has been Silicon Valley's favorite podcast. Every afternoon in about 15 minutes, you get the top tech stories of the day. What happened, what people are saying about what happened, what Silicon Valley is thinking about. What happened. The Tech Brew Ride Home is listened to by anyone who's anyone in Silicon Valley. From the C Suite at Mag7 companies to founders, to general partners at firms like A16Z, if you care about tech at all, you need the tech brew ride home in your life. Subscribe right now. Techbrew. Ride home.

[Katie Drummond]

So, Jason, we always end these shows with a game which, given the tenor of our conversation, can be more or less fun.

[Jason Rezaian]

Let's have some fun. Okay. Let's try to.

[Katie Drummond]

Let's shake it off a little bit. The game is called Control, Alt, Delete. I want to know what piece of technology you would love to control, what piece you would love to alt. So alter or change, and what you would delete. What would you vanquish from the earth if given the opportunity.

[Jason Rezaian]

Oh, gosh, Okay. A piece of technology that I'd like to control. I think my mastery or even use of some of these very helpful AI tools leaves a lot to be desired.

[Katie Drummond]

Okay.

[Jason Rezaian]

Right. I'm. I'm a. I'm sort of new ChatGPT novice. Yes.

[Katie Drummond]

Okay.

[Jason Rezaian]

And I'm eager to see how I might employ those tools to help me and continue to actually write. Right.

[Katie Drummond]

The important thing there, you know, because I think, please continue to actually write your own words.

[Jason Rezaian]

Yeah. I mean, and I think that this is going to be a challenge. And I think every time I talk to college and high school students, people ask for, you know, advice or whatever. And I said, you know, develop your ability to express yourself in the written word. It'll pay off for you in whatever you do. Because being able to communicate your experience and yourself and your desires, your needs, is very essential. I think it's only going to become more essential.

[Katie Drummond]

So you would like to wield godlike control of prompt of LLMs.

[Jason Rezaian]

Yeah.

[Katie Drummond]

While also continuing to write your own words.

[Jason Rezaian]

Totally.

[Katie Drummond]

I like this.

[Jason Rezaian]

You know, really gain control of them to free me up so I can just write my own words.

[Katie Drummond]

Wonderful. Yeah.

[Jason Rezaian]

Alt. Wow. I would like to alter the toys that we have in our lives these days. Whether it's a remote control car or, you know, a smart fridge or whatever.

[Katie Drummond]

Okay.

[Jason Rezaian]

They can do a lot of things that we couldn't imagine things would be able to do, but they break really fast.

[Katie Drummond]

They do, they do.

[Jason Rezaian]

And it's really annoying. I have a friend whose mom, she passed away a few years ago, but she had this lamp that was from the 1890s. And the bulb still worked. The original bulb still worked. Things were built to last before. And I think if I was going to alter anything, it would be the durability of our gadgets, our consumer tech. Yeah.

[Katie Drummond]

Okay.

[Jason Rezaian]

Is that an okay answer?

[Katie Drummond]

That's a totally great answer. What are you deleting?

[Jason Rezaian]

Oh, gosh. I need a minute.

[Katie Drummond]

That's okay.

[Jason Rezaian]

It's very important. I was in an event recently and somebody was asked if they could meet one person, who would it be? And they didn't have an answer.

[Katie Drummond]

They're like, nobody.

[Jason Rezaian]

So a gadget that we would delete

[Katie Drummond]

or just a piece of technology?

[Jason Rezaian]

A piece of technology. Have you noticed weather forecasts are less accurate than they've ever been?

[Katie Drummond]

Absolutely.

[Jason Rezaian]

So I think we should get rid of forecasts.

[Katie Drummond]

Get rid of weather forecasts? Yeah, just go with. Go with God. Just cross your fingers. You may as well.

[Jason Rezaian]

You might as well, because the accuracy of what we're getting is. Is about as accurate as your guess.

[Katie Drummond]

I. I really appreciate that, and I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for being here. Fascinating conversation, and thank you for the work that you do.

[Jason Rezaian]

Thank you.

[Katie Drummond]

The Big Interview is a production of Wired and Kaleidoscope. Content. This episode was produced by our showrunner, Ann Marie Fertoli. Kate Osborne is our executive producer. Music and mixing by Pran Bandy. This episode was fact checked by Samantha Spengler. And I am, of course, your host, Katie Drummond, Wired's global editorial director. Check back here on Thursday for the latest episode of Uncanny Valley, where where Wired's writers and editors add you to their Slack channel.

[Podcast Advertiser/Other Hosts]

This week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, UFC president and a close friend of Donald Trump's Dana White. People can ask me about Donald Trump

[Katie Drummond]

for the rest of my life and I'll tell you all the great things that I love about this guy. What I'll be happy to be out of is politics. I don't want to talk about politics.

[Jason Rezaian]

Whether they're his, Obama's, this guy, that

[Katie Drummond]

guy, none of them.

[Podcast Advertiser/Other Hosts]

That's the UFC's Dana White on the New Yorker Radio Hour from WNYC. Listen, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jason Rezaian]

From prx.