Kara Swisher Is Trying To Live Forever

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Kara Swisher Is Trying To Live Forever"

Uncanny Valley | WIRED
Date: April 16, 2026
Host: Katie Drummond (WIRED Global Editorial Director)
Guest: Kara Swisher (Veteran Tech Journalist, Host of "Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever")

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Episode Overview

This episode features an insightful conversation between WIRED’s Katie Drummond and renowned journalist Kara Swisher, exploring the intersection of Silicon Valley culture and the modern obsession with longevity. Swisher’s new CNN docuseries, "Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever," serves as a springboard for a probing discussion of tech moguls’ attempts to hack mortality, the science (and spectacle) of biohacking, and broader questions around health equity, innovation, and human purpose.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Silicon Valley's Fascination with Living Forever

Timestamps: 03:15–07:25

• Swisher reflects on her decades covering tech moguls who now channel their energy (and immense wealth) into longevity and "physical optimization."
• The conversation traces the evolution of figures such as Jeff Bezos and Larry Ellison, who moved from hacking productivity to attempting to hack human biology.
• Quote: "Now that they have time and money, they're older and they suddenly realize their little meat sacks are gonna not last for that long." – Kara Swisher (04:40)
• Many of these billionaires, Swisher notes, are driven by ego—the idea that if everything else can be conquered or 'hacked', then perhaps death can be too.
• The discussion draws a connection to science fiction and ideas like Ray Kurzweil’s "singularity," where merging with machines becomes the ultimate escape.

2. Narcissism, Self-Experimentation, and Influence

Timestamps: 07:25–13:14

• The duo discusses Brian Johnson, an internet-famous longevity entrepreneur, and the rise of influential self-experimenters:
  • Johnson—once a legitimate thinker about brain science—has, in Swisher’s view, "become a circus act" pursuing increasingly outlandish health routines.
  • Quote: "He's doing all this chest showing off, nudity, training... Plasma transfers with his son or father, anything and everything. And he became a circus act." – Kara Swisher (09:05)
  • Swisher critiques the lack of broader scientific value: "Your experiences are only the experiences of Brian Johnson... Why don't you help more people than less?" (09:30)
• The immense privilege and disconnect from regular people's lives—particularly regarding access, wealth, and basic needs—are highlighted.
  • Quote: "If you spend $2 million on your health, you'll be good. You're good, sir. And so what is the point of that money when he could be doing like..." (10:29)
• Both Swisher and Drummond note the sense of sadness and emptiness at the core of these pursuits, despite apparent generosity and good intentions.

3. Systemic Health Inequity and Distraction

Timestamps: 14:27–17:35

• Swisher and Drummond shift to the contrast between tech’s high-profile, individual-driven longevity pursuits and America’s failing, inequitable healthcare system.
• The US medical complex is described as focused on treating sickness rather than fostering health, with little emphasis or profit incentive in preventative care.
  • Notable comparison with Korea: "Korea ... have the longest longevity right now. And there's a lot of reasons—diet... They have a nutritionist in every school. Why don't we?" (15:21)
• Much of Silicon Valley's "noise" is seen as a distraction from real, necessary, but unglamorous interventions that could benefit more people.

4. Effective Innovations vs. Health Fads

Timestamps: 18:41–22:00

• Swisher discusses visiting "concierge" health clinics, where the wealthy pursue questionable therapies (e.g., red light therapy, hyperbaric chambers).
• She draws a distinction between hype and genuine advances, such as mRNA vaccine technology and AI-enabled cancer research.
  • Concern is expressed over political disruptions and funding shortages that threaten American leadership in biomedical research.

5. Philanthropy and Substantive Impact

Timestamps: 21:31–22:34

• Swisher holds up figures like MacKenzie Scott and (sometimes) the Gateses as examples of tech money making genuine societal impacts through quiet, high-impact philanthropy rather than self-promotion.
  • Quote: "I don't know what her pecs look like. I don't know... I don't care. Neither does she. Like she's doing things." (21:33)

6. AI, Digital Immortality, and Existential Reflections

Timestamps: 22:59–27:44

• Swisher discusses creating her own AI "Karatar" (avatar), sharing both intrigue and discomfort at seeing a digital facsimile converse convincingly in her persona.
  • Notable moment: The AI, unexpectedly, says Swisher’s private family joke: "'See ya, wouldn’t wanna be ya.' ... Where the fuck did they get that from?" (25:46)
• The segment pivots to the emotional limitations of digital legacy, and queries whether AI avatars could genuinely replace human memory.
  • "Maybe flawed memory is better than the real thing." (27:09)
• The ethical, generational, and societal implications of extreme longevity are explored via Greek myth and speculative scenarios.

7. Acceptance of Mortality & Pursuit of Meaning

Timestamps: 28:55–35:15

• Longevity for whom? Swisher argues for the value of healthspan (years lived in good health) over mere lifespan extension.
  • The costs of prolonging life only to increase years of disability are acknowledged.
• The episode’s powerful closing thesis: True "longevity hacks" are social connections—friends, family, community—not tech or supplements.
  • Quote: "The scientific links are so clear... Humanity just really beats all this stuff. No matter how you slice it, creativity beats all this stuff." (30:53)
• Swisher emphasizes the importance and mental health benefits of accepting mortality, referencing the classic Steve Jobs perspective:
  • "Death is the single greatest motivator and invention of life. And he's 100%. He died. But he's 100% right." (33:35)
• She closes with a call to spend one’s finite time well, relating her own decisions to leave jobs or prioritize relationships with the knowledge that "I have limited time on the planet." (34:25)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Basically I raised them badly and now you have to deal with them." – Kara Swisher, on tech moguls (03:41)
• "I'm like a fucking buttload, my friend. Right? Why don’t you help more people than less?" – Kara Swisher to Brian Johnson (09:30)
• "If you have all this money... and just interestingly, ironically, this week, MacKenzie Scott gave $70 million to Meals on Wheels. Guess who's gonna help the outcomes of his longevity more? Her or him? Her." (10:27)
• "The number one longevity hack is not to be poor or be rich, but... the one that I really came away with... is friends and family." (30:53)
• "Accepting death is part of that... The other people who accept death are happier, healthier, they live longer." (33:41)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |---------------|---------------------------------------------------------| | 03:15–07:25 | Tech moguls’ longevity obsession, ego, and investments | | 07:25–13:14 | Brian Johnson: narcissism, self-experimentation, critique | | 14:27–17:35 | US health inequity vs. preventative healthcare globally | | 22:59–27:44 | AI avatars, digital immortality, and existential meaning | | 28:55–35:15 | Healthspan vs. lifespan, true longevity "hacks," mortality acceptance |

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Tone & Language

The conversation is frank, witty, irreverent—a trademark Swisher style. Humor is omnipresent, but the substance is rigorous and critical, oscillating between sharp social critique and moments of genuine reflection and empathy.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a timely reality check: Silicon Valley’s quest for eternal life is as much about power, spectacle, and the tech industry’s perpetual belief in disruption as it is about real science or wider human flourishing. Swisher and Drummond repeatedly bring the conversation back to essential truths—community, humility, and the acceptance of our limits.

If you missed the episode, this summary will give you not only the arguments covered but also the spirit of the exchange: skeptical, searching, and ultimately hopeful about what truly helps us live well.

Transcript

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Adriana (Producer of Uncanny Valley)]

Hey, this is Adriana, one of the producers of Uncanny Valley. We're preparing something special and a little different that we will share with you on the feed later this week. But today we're bringing you a conversation between WIRED's global editorial director, Katie Drummond and longtime tech journalist and friend of the pod, Kara Swisher. They recently sat down to talk about Silicon Valley's obsession with living forever. Kara decided to look into it in depth for her new CNN series. Kara Swisher wants to Live Forever. And through her reporting she found a booming industry with more than a few surprises along the way. Here's our conversation.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

This is Katie Drummond, Wired's global editorial director. Today I'm joined by journalist and podcast host Kara Swisher, who's embarking on a new venture, a six part docuseries on longevity that aims to parse rumors from reality. Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever is a six part CNN original series that airs on Saturdays. The first episode is already out on streaming and Kara's here now to tell us more. Welcome back.

[Adriana (Producer of Uncanny Valley)]

Thank you.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Friend of Wired to see you.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Great to see you too. So I wanna start at the beginning. I just watched the first episode and I understand that the series in many ways was born out of one of our favorite topics here at Wired, and that is of course, Silicon Valley and the moguls who run it. You've been covering those moguls for decades and you were covering them as they became the billionaires and the moguls before.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

I was the Before Times. Now you have to deal with them now.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Well, I'm pretty sure you're still dealing with them.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Basically I raised them badly and now you have to deal with them.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

But part of the RA badly that you did is that so many of these guys have now become obsessed with longevity. They become obsessed with sort of physical optimization or, or maybe however they see

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

that body, whatever they call it.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

I don't know that I would consider Jeff's physique my ideal physique, but he is clearly in some sort of.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Well, Lauren seems to like it, so let's just leave it at that.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Lauren seems to like it just fine and good for her. But how did you watch that relationship that some of them had to health and longevity evolve?

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Well, you know, you talk about just body training, you know, we're not supposed to talk about people's physical looks. But wow, he's different. Like he was different.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

All I'm saying is he's not my type, right?

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

I could have thrown him across the room years ago when I first met him, and maybe I did. But the thing that's interesting to me, it's not just that, it's the investments, it's the massive investments. Whether it's Larry Ellison who's created an entire institute for this. Musk has been involved. Bezos, of course, has talked about it and made investments. Altman and many more. There's lots. And of course a lot of it was also around psychedelics and ketamine. You know, they were the first to sort of make significant investments in that area. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. Like, it's interesting, and I think it was born out of this idea, is like they've always been trying to hack health in some way and never were very successful. And so it always interested them. And now that they have time and money, they're older and they suddenly realize their little meat sacks are gonna not last for that long. And so how do we get to that spot of the singularity, which was Ray Kurzweil, that idea that we're gonna merge with the machine? And then there's a dollop of science fiction that they all grew up on. I know Musk certainly was enamored with certain science fiction around that idea. Space travel. Not just space travel, but spatial longevity, et cetera. And so that's sort of what it's part of. And then there's a whole aspect of it, of what happens to your brain. Can you preserve your brain and not cryogenics? Cause I didn't do any of that. Cause I think that's such nonsense. Why waste my time? But one of the things was, what happens now that they have AI that can become you? Could you preserve yourself in some other way and put yourself into another being?

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

And I want to ask you about your experience with that, but for these guys, I mean, there's the ego and the power of it too, right? I mean, this sort of like the ultimate conquest, the ultimate exercising of power would be able to. Would mean being able to defeat death.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Right?

[Adriana (Producer of Uncanny Valley)]

Right.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Defeat death. Or at least extend it to the point. You know, Musk talk like it's just a programming problem, but it's not just a code. Of course it's not. They like to reduce the brain to a computer. The computer wishes it were like a brain. Brain is amazing. But I think it's the idea that if everything else can be hacked, why can't this? Right, Right. And to a certain extent, there are things you can do and like robotics and exoskeletons and AI for cancer, which I also looked into. I wanted to look at the real stuff. GLP1s MRNA technology, the uses of AI and drug discovery, all manner of. Can extend life and rid ourselves of certain diseases. That's a laudable goal. But instead of just saying, okay, we're gonna try to figure out a way to talk about this single cancer instead. Because they're doing PR for themselves, or they're stealing all our information. We're gonna cure all diseases, Right?

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

All of them.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

All of them. I was like, all like, I'm not so sure that's possible. But I get a goal. I get a goal, that's a nice goal. But what they're really doing is other things. Right? They're really doing is creating all manner of danger. And that's not their main goal is to help humanity. They're there to help themselves, they're there to get richer and they're there to extend their power across the rest of us without any accountability.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

That brings me to actually Brian Johnson, who is featured in the first episode of the series, who I also interviewed and we talked very briefly before you went and interviewed him many months back. You know, he's one of the Internet's favorite longevity influencers, if not the Internet's favorite. He's very, he doesn't like calling himself

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

an influencer, by the way. He got very offended.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Well, I mean he is a YouTuber. I mean he is an Olympic on. He's an influencer. He's, he's across all these platforms, he has millions of followers. He is very, very wealthy by way of, of tech money. And he has devoted himself essentially to becoming a one man longevity optimization experiment.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Right. Which helps none of us.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Which helps none of us. And I wanted to ask, you know, I interviewed him, I have my impressions. Tell me about yours.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Well, it's interesting cause he, I had forgotten, but as I went back, he came to code in 2017, my conference.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

And the clips from that are wonderful, I must say, are wonderful. But he looks, again, sorry to keep commenting on people's appearances, vastly different than he does.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

He looks normal is what he does. He looks like he was coming because he was talking about. And I thought it was really interesting. And the reason I had him was because he was talking about brain science and what we can do around depression. Cause he himself suffered it and some of the uses of AI. He was one of the first people to talk about where are we gonna go with this? And very thoughtful. And you know, he had sold this company for $800 million, I can't remember. And obviously he had also personal issues around Mormonism and everything else. And so he was a really interesting character to me. And then it morphed in, then this. And then he's doing all this chest showing off, nudity, training, nudity, like look at me.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Plasma transfers with his son or father, anything and everything.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

And he became a circus act. And I was like, wow, that was what happened, like kind of stuff. And so I had somewhat, I wouldn't say affection, but I had empathy for what he was Talking about during that talk, which is why I had him. And it was also of interest. Cause it really was. God, what can we do with AI and brains, et cetera. And it's an interesting area of things to discuss and entertain. And then it was about a narcissistic pursuit of. I don't even know what. Because it's not like. And I did put it to him in this interview. It's like your experiences are only the experiences of Brian Johnson. If you have all this money, all of you, why don't you pay for gold standard testing? Well, how many can I pay for? I'm like a fucking buttload, my friend. Right? Why don't you help more people than less? And that's. It's just him. It's just him. And what is going to become of this information? Almost nothing. Like maybe one or two small insights that people might take.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Maybe getting enough sleep is good.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

We know this already.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

He has helped us establish this.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Yes, but he has not.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

No, no, I know. I'm being sarcastic. He has not at all.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

My grandma knew that. Yeah.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

There's a great clip. I think I saw it on CNN's Social Accounts of. Of this interview where he says something like, you know, getting enough sleep. Anyone can get enough sleep. And immediately in my head. And then you said, no, they can't.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

There are so many people.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

If you're poor, you know, if you do food and you get enough sleep. And maybe if they get a sleep, I go, maybe they can't. He didn't have that. They might have two jobs. They have homeless issues, they have financial issues, They've got health issues that they can't pay for. It doesn't even occur to these people that if you spend $2 million on your health, you'll be good. You're good, sir. And so what is the point of that money when he could be doing like. And just interestingly, ironically, this week, MacKenzie Scott gave $70 million to meals on Wheels. Guess who's gonna help the outcomes of his longevity more? Her or him? Her.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

So why do you think he's doing it? Because this is. This is the question.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

An empty hole. I don't know. I think there is scientific interest. Like, look. Frankenstein, Dr. Frankenstein. Everyone who does experiments, lots of both nefarious, like Hitler and Dr. Mengele, they did those experiments. And there's all kinds of people. The guy who, you know, was trying, when they were doing crispr, tried to use it for cloning. When they decided to go into cloning, he did it. He shouldn't have. This is something that's always happened. If you're not doing it for the benefit of lots and lots of people, what are you doing it for? And then I said, and he's sort of aware of it. He goes, I know people think I'm this, like, narcissistic, Patrick Bateman adjacent motherfucker. And I was like, yes, they do.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

And then he's like, and you're playing.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

You wanted me to say no, no, no. But I was like, exactly. And I said. And he's like, well, you know, it's easy to mock me. I go, no, no. You put yourself. You make you know what you're doing. You're very aware of. You know, when you have a picture of you with a little blood thing and you do with your son that everyone's gonna look. You have to be. Don't play innocent with me. At the same time, I find to be a rather poignant figure. Like, what are you looking for? Is this the way you want to spend your life? Measuring your ere, you know, analyzing your poop and constantly being.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Why?

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Why?

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Yeah, why? Why? There was something. I found him to be. I mean, all the things that you just said on a surface level as a human, a lovely person.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Generous with his time. Kind, thoughtful, considerate.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Very much so. Something sad. Something sad.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Something sad. Like the other day, he just, you know, and I like him, but he's like. Just had sex with Kate. It was good. Like, the woman.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

He's on the Internet. He said that?

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

He did on Twitter.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Don't do that.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

I know. And I was like, what are you doing, sir?

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

It was good. Did he say it was good?

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Something like that. And everyone was like, go, man. And I was like. And then she responded, yeah, it was good. I was like, oh, my God, you people.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Like, it wasn't great.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

You know, it would be great if she did that. But she didn't. She liked it, apparently. But it was great. I'm glad. Good for you.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Happy for them.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Happy for you. But it's sort of this weird. It's narcissism is what it is. Right. And that's what you have to look at. And one of the things that I think is a real disease of these people right now is they can't stop talking. Like, we can't stop talking, but that's our job. Right. But they really have to weigh in on all manner of whether it's Marc Andreessen talking about introspection, which is absolutely. To me. I was like, oh, I see. Then you're deeply troubled. Like, it's like everything they try to say, like I don't care about anything. I'm like, oh, you care about everything. You care so much. So much. And so, so it's really interesting, like why are we talking to Mark Anderson about philosophy? Precisely. Like, I don't know, I'm happy to talk to him about browsers or whatever. And so that's the kind of stuff. And so to me it's out of boredom, out of I can talk about anything, I'm an expert in anything. And when you come to healthcare, who are we helping? And what really kills me is, well, obviously there's the misinformation and the grifterness around so much of this stuff. And that's, you know, it's the same thing part and parcel with the political misinformation that happens. It's in this, down the same alley. But one of the things that sort of kills me is that there's so much amazing innovation happening. Yeah, real innovation.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

And that was a question I had for you, which is sort of how much do you think all of this noise of the silicon valleys, the curing all diseases, the Ryan Johnson's, the misinformation, like all of this noise, you have that over here. Over here you have a very broken American healthcare system, very much massive inequity

[Adriana (Producer of Uncanny Valley)]

in access to peer cost, double the

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

cost of other peer nations, worse outcomes.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

You have real science happening. So how much do you think we're all getting distracted looking over here, not sort of addressing what's going on, what's a lot of.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

There isn't a business in it, there isn't a business in doing preventative healthcare. There's a little bit of it, but the cost savings are enormous. And what we do is we backload everything. The money is spent when you're sick. And we're good at sick, we're not good at health. And so I went to Korea, which is better at health than they are at sick.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Yeah, tell me about that. I've never been, you know, it's not

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

a perfect nation, let's be fair. I wasn't trying to say they're the best, but they do have the longest longevity right now. And there's a lot of reasons. One is diet. I went to a school. If you saw what those kids ate, it's really astonishing. Very healthy foods, you know, fermented foods, vegetables, whole fruits, everything else. And they have a nutritionist in every school. Why don't we have a nutritionist in every school? And then it's not like they don't eat snacks. Everyone's seen K Pop Demon hunters. They love a snack, right? But what happens is these kids get a base of food knowledge that they get used to and start eating. And that's really important. And you don't see it today, but later in your life it matters. Same thing with doing strength training. When you're younger, it's like putting money in the bank. All of a sudden you have a million dollars later, so you don't.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

And.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Or you do interval training to get your heart more efficient and your muscles. Like that's something that pays off much later and is not so flashy, like put on a red light.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

That's the thing. It all just sounds very boring.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

It does. And it is very boring.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Brian Johnson Having good sex, right?

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Exactly. And so although sex is probably good for your health,

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

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[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Comprehensive, witty, speculative, critical, insightful, profound, wide ranging.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Hopefully doesn't take itself too, too seriously.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, my colleagues and I try to make sense of what's happening in this chaotic world.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

I hope you'll join us for the New Yorker Radio Hour, wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Thoughtful, exquisite, just, you know, real.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

One of the things that's important to keep in mind is what can we do as a nation to try to make ourselves healthier rather than, you know, I'll tell you one thing in Korea, universal healthcare, Renting it off. Universal healthcare is the way you have a healthier society. End of story.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Period.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

End of story.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Having grown up in Canada. Agree.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

And you know, when the rich feel, oh, they don't have as good a system, I'm like, you know what? Buy more, you're rich. Buy more.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Yeah, buy more.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Buy more. Which they do. And by the way, the rich have a different medical system than everybody else. They have these. And I went to a concierge.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

You went to one. Yeah.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

And you know, some of it is silly, like the red light mat, whatever, if you wanted. They don't really. The science is pretty weak around those things. Or hyperbaric. They have something new and fluid. Flashly. Every hyperbaric Brian has his own hyperbaric chamber. But it's sort of the idea is if a little oxygen is good, three times is better, which is not true. And these promises of instant and again. This isn't new in our history or the world's history, that you take a pill and then you're suddenly young again. I mean, even Greek mythology is like that. Vampire stories, Frankenstein. This is something we wish for, but honestly, it's really boring to do the block and tackle stuff that we need to do to stay healthy and at the same time to back things like MRNA technology. I went and visited the Nobel Prize winner in this in Philadelphia at University of Pennsylvania. And these people are fleeing this country. We were ahead in all these things because of the Trump administration's cuts. And they're terrorists who are scientists. And if they get funding, we will be ahead. And we'll have these. We will have vaccines for cancer.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Yeah. No, I mean, it's. What is happening to the US healthcare system and scientific research under the Trump administration is criminal. Criminal. And one of many reasons I would love for my 8 year old to be an adult somewhere else.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

That's right.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

And this is a decade.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

This guy won the prize. He goes, we are setting back our research for a generation. And the next pandemic will be begging the Chinese for a vaccine, which you do not want to be doing. Begging the Chinese for it. And the thing is, we're so far ahead on this stuff. Really far ahead. And it should also be working with allies like in Germany. That's where some of this technology came from to do things. GLP1S is a very good thing. So much promise here. So how do we roll this out among the general population in a safe way? How do we do gold standard testing, figure out what it really works and then start to really understand obesity and what we can do about it, both from a medical point of view and from a. Learn about nutrition, learn about sleep, learn about exercise, give the population more knowledge. And that's not what they're interested in. They're not. They're not. And you wish they were. And the one person who actually is making a difference would be Mackenzie Scott

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

among these people and doing so very quietly.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

You never hear from her. I don't know what her pecs look like. I don't know.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

I don't either.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

I don't know if she has pecs. I don't care. Neither does she. Like she's doing things. Or someone like Melinda Gates and actually honestly, Bill Gates too, because they were just giving money to do things that would cause. Solve malaria, things that kills people. And then in this country now measles seems to be back. And that's so offensive. What's next? Polio? We're going to do cholera next.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

It's possible. Yeah.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

And this was solved. Things we should be focused on things we haven't solved. And now we're now contending because of misinformation, health misinformation with diseases that like. Honestly, I'm like waiting for the gout to make a return.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Yeah. And there is sort of a jarring juxtaposition between everything you just described and then for the last time bringing it back to Brian Johnson. But sort of all of these guys over here just. Yeah. Like measuring their shit and their erections and drinking smoothies and eating broccoli in their, you know, concrete mansions. And you're. Huh.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Like he doesn't like the sun.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

I guess it feels more urgent over here.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

It's also the idea of what's the priority here. Is it for the most people? No, it's not. It really isn't. And so if it's not, what are you doing with its enormous wealth? And the only thing I can say sometimes when I see some of them is you're still gonna die. You do know that? And you're not. And one thing I did do is I created a karatar, which was a 3D thing of an AI version of me.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

I'm curious about this. Yeah. What was your. Tell us about it and what did you walk away thinking? And Feeling about the idea of sort of living on it was complicated.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

I would say that. So it was from a firm that, if you remember, is preserving the memories of Holocaust survivors. And a lot of it used to be they taped them and they would have road answers, right? Like, what was it like in the camp? And then they would tape them, and then it would be played back at you, essentially a tape recorder. But they would take beautiful 3D imagery of them. And then that was kind of great. That's great in and of itself. It's talking history now. You can have real conversations with them that you didn't tape. So I taped a bunch of stuff like, my name is Kara Swisher. I was born in Philadelphia. My father died when I was five. And then they can glean stuff also from the Internet, which is incredible. And then because of AI, now these things can start to have real. I would call them real conversations, except it's based on the algorithm and it knew it. I said, well, you know, you don't have empathy with Sou and the being. That was me. The Katar said, well, algorithm is my soul. Wow. And I was like, that's a really interesting. It's really jarring when they have a good insight. And at one point I said, well, do you think I'm like you? And I said, well, you're not really good at jokes, and you don't smile much. And they were like, I'll take that note. And at one point they go, I'm smiling, just not with my teeth. You can't see it. And I was like, okay, that was a good joke.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Like, it suddenly. It knew I wanted a joke, and it did one that was okay. It was on the way, for sure.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Would you want that for your family?

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

No, I didn't. I thought, I'm gonna kill you at some point. And then I didn't wanna say it too loudly. Cause who knows what would've come after me, like 2001 A Space Odyssey. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I won't be able to do that. And, you know, I'll tell you the weirdest part, and I've said this several times, was there's a lot of Kara Swisher out there. There's probably a lot of. There's more and more Katie Drummond out there. And so you could pull from 20 years of interviews, articles I've written, if you put my. I didn't put my emails in there, but you could. You could get a pretty good. A relatively good facsimile of Kara Swisher. And of course they took a picture. I mean, I look a little shiny and weird, but that's okay. It was. It was enough. It was close enough. And I was leaving and we had this very interesting talk about how do you balance innovation with the need to protect humanity? And I said, we don't. And the Avatar said, that's really something to think about. Cause you're probably right. And it was being solicitous, but it was a real. I would say it was a good conversation. It got better and better by the minute. That was what was really interesting. And not in a text setting. It's even more jarring. A really pretty good conversation with a computer. And as I was leaving, there's something I say to my kids. I have four kids, which I always say, which is stupid and cringy. Where I go, see, you wouldn't want to be ya. I have not said that in public. Now I have during these interviews. I have not said that in public. As I walked away, it said, see ya, Wouldn't want to be ya. No. And I thought, where the fuck did they get that from? Where? Where? And I'm like, maybe I said it somewhere. But how did it pull it? And how did it know? That's what I would say. Yeah, but how? I was like, I don't know. I don't know. I just. I sat there and I was like, I don't think I've said that in public. I don't recall.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Well, that's spooky.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

A lot of stuff they said. I knew where they got. I had a sense of where it came from, but it was.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Did you ask your kids if that's something they would want? Like, would they want to be able to talk to you in that way after you died?

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

It's not really about my kids. Cause they do know me. Right.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

But, like, would they want to spend time with an AI avatar version of you?

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

I don't know. One of the things was, do I want my great grandchildren to see it?

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Would I have liked to have talked to my dad, even an avatar? Yes. Yes, I would. If there was little bits of him. Because memory is so bad at the same time. Maybe memory's better. Maybe flawed memory is better than the real thing.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

And sort of this very natural erosion of that memory is the earth.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Right? Exactly. And maybe that's the way it should be. And so look, I think someday we will be able to. Like, you'll be in a cemetery. I was thinking of this. I always think about, like, what's the Next thing, you'll be in a cemetery and instead of gravestones, there'll be holograms of people and you'll talk to them. No question.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

I can picture it.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Right? No, it's not black mirror. It makes sense. Why not do that? And then you could say, I'm visiting mom today and, hi, honey, how you doing? But it might be comforting to some people, right? And so I'm not one to tell you what not to do.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

No, no. But there's just a lot there. There's a lot that comes with that.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Right. And so you start to think about it. And so the issue of longevity is. You know, I started with the myth of Tithonus. I think that's the right pronounce it. Do you know that myth? The Greek mythology?

[Adriana (Producer of Uncanny Valley)]

Remind me.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

I'm a big mythology person. It's a goddess, falls in love with this guy, Tithonus, and she gets Zeus to make him live forever. But she forgets to not let him age to stop the aging process. And so he's in agony because he gets older and older and more decrepit, but he never dies. And it's hell. It's hell. And so what is our purpose of living longer? And isn't it better to clear out for the next generation? What happens to jobs if people like, I interviewed one guy and he was a science fiction writer. And what if you could take a pill that every five years you lived? You only aged one year. That means you could live a couple hundred years, right? You're 40 and you're really, whatever, 200. Would you take that pill? You would only age a year, every five years, and it costs a million dollars each. So only some people could take it. And what if your kids didn't take it? Think about it. It's like so mind fuckery. It's all.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

I think I would rather not have the choice. I don't wanna have to make that decision.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Someday you might, and that's really interesting. And so what if you could replace all your organs? What about that? And so we will be facing those issues, but then you never get out of the way. What happens to people's jobs? What happens to young people if you're not leaving? If we could have young Chuck Schumer all the time.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Dare to dream.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

We don't like old Chuck Schumer. Right. But clearing out is part of life.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Right? Well, how old do you hope you are when you die? Would you take that?

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Older. No.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

No. Okay.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

No. Again, the lifespan health span thing, which I think is one of the Good things that's come out of this is the idea that your lifespan and health span meet up. Because right now it's a 15 year delta. People start to get really sick in their 60s, they live into their 80s. And the last part is not good, 90s even. And anyone who has an elderly parent knows this. It's really painful to watch. But I imagine I want to be relatively healthy till the end. That would be the best thing. I think most people think that mobile and some of these, like I was in Korea, the exoskeleton stuff is really cool. With AI, that's cool. If you could walk and get around okay and you're not in a wheelchair and you're not sharp and sharp and the cognitive stuff, that would be great. I don't know, long enough. I would like to see. I have older kids and younger kids. I'd like to see. I'd like to see at least some

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

married, maybe a nice like 95, 96.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Yeah. And pretty, you know, pretty old enough. Old enough, but not really debilitated. Although if you have a life of the mind, that's okay. People that don't have a life of the mind are the ones that suffer. If I could sit and read, it would be nice. I never slow down. It does, right?

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

What did you walk away from making this series when you walked away from it? What gives you hope? What should people listening to this feel optimistic?

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

They should.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

We talked about a lot of dysfunction, a lot of erections.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

The number one longevity hack is not to be poor or be rich, but that's the number one lege. But the one that I really came away with, and I think it's absolutely true for cognitive health, for physical health and the cascading effects of things is friends and family. The scientific links are so clear in terms of having links and not just with people. You know, it's having challenges having that. Humanity just really beats all this stuff. No matter how you slice it, creativity beats all this stuff. And when you have a challenged brain and aside from accidents and things that just happen just because life is like that, friends and family and a wider range of social connections are critically important and well over AI bot we could get into that. AI bots and synthetic relationships and everything else, the number one thing you can do for yourself is have. And I talked to the Harvard Happiness Study people, all manner of doctors, social connections, real social connections, not social media connections. There's nothing social about social media. It's angry. It's become angry and we can't seem to fix it social connection. I think young people do get that. Both my sons took social media off their thing. And my older son, I said, why did you do that? And he said, it makes me feel bad. Yeah, you don't need a computer to tell you that. Right. And so that was something really interesting. And so I've spent a lot more time with social connections. And I really think we lost that during COVID in a lot of ways, and we have to regain that. And it's the single best thing we can do for health, is rebuild all kinds of communities, not just church communities or sports communities, but really start to have much. And I think, honestly, that's where you can see too.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

I think people want to be around other people.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

They do.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

It's changing. And people are sick of the dunking online. They're sick of the angry billionaires, and they're sick of the partisanship. And accepting death is part of that. And there was a great interview at the very end. I talked to a pastor, I talked to a range of people. And this professor at Skidmore is doing a study of death acceptance during death versus death fear. And that physical manifestations of it. And people who fear death are sicker, angrier, more partisan, more polarized, more them. You know, they. The other people who accept death are happier, healthier, they live longer, they are happier in their life. And that's where I originally took my inspiration from. Steve Jobs, who talked about this, death is the single greatest motivator and invention of life. And he's 100%. You know, he died, but he's 100% right.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

And you learned that very early.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

I did. With my dad dying.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

When you think about death, how do you try to think about it a lot?

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

I think about it a lot. It informs everything. And, you know, I change a lot.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

I often say to myself when I'm somewhere and Steve Jobs said this, he goes, when I'm unhappy four or five days in a row, I say no and look in the mirror. I leave. I get up and leave. I change. And sometimes I. I do that. I do that a lot. And I know that I have limited time on the planet, and it's actually how I make decisions. And I remember leaving one job and they were like, it was a pretty well established place. And they're like, oh, why are you leaving? And I said, I don't wanna talk to you anymore. Cause I don't have enough time. And they're like, what? And I go, I'm wasting my time talking to you. And, oh, I just Wasted another minute.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

And that's a very. That comment was very existential.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Like literally, who knew how many minutes My dad finished his. He went in the military because it paid. He didn't have enough money to pay for medical school or college. Paid for that he got. Has three kids, 34 years old, buys his first house, gets his first big job. He doesn't move into that house, he doesn't do that job, he dies. What if you knew that? I know that. Right. All of us know that in the back of our heads. And if we have the awareness of that right now, we may go on digitally. Maybe it never gets erased. But if you have that, it motivates you to do great things and to think about other people more. I think it does. It absolutely does. Or you can be graspy and hold desperately onto your meat sack, Brian. And it's a good looking meat sack. According to you.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

According to some.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Right. So that's a way to go. But I think it's a waste of time. I love that. Yeah.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Thank you so much for being here.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Thank you. And keep going, Katie.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

I'm gonna keep going.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

I love it.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

They're still mad out there.

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

Good. You know what? Keep em mangry.

[Adriana (Producer of Uncanny Valley)]

That's our show for today. We'll link to all the stories we spoke about today in the show.

[Katie Drummond (WIRED's Global Editorial Director)]

Notes.

[Adriana (Producer of Uncanny Valley)]

Uncanny Valley is produced by Kaleidoscope Content. Anne Marie Fertoldi and myself produced this episode. It was mixed by Amara Lal at Macrosound. It was fact checked by Matt Giles. Kate Osborne is our executive producer and Katie Drummond is Wired's Global Editorial director.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

For more than seven years, the Tech Brew Ride Home has been Silicon Valley's favorite podcast. Every afternoon in about 15 minutes you get the time. Tech stories of the day. What happened, what people are saying about what happened. What Silicon Valley is thinking about. What happened. The Tech Brew Riot home is listened to by anyone who's anyone in Silicon Valley. From the C Suite at Mag7 companies to founders, to general partners at firms like A16Z, if you care about tech at all, you need the Tech Brew Ride Home in your life. Subscribe right now. Tech Brew Ride Home

[Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist and Podcast Host)]

from prx.