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- [00:01]
Outshift Cisco Representative
This show is supported by Outshift, Cisco's incubation engine. Today's AI agents operate in silos, limiting their true potential. We've been focused on building bigger, smarter models, but scaling up is just one approach. To reach superintelligence together, we need to do more, we need to scale out and we actually have a blueprint from 70,000 years ago. Humans didn't just get smarter individually, they the cognitive revolution transformed society. Because we began sharing knowledge, goals and innovation, agents are now at that same inflection point. They can connect, but they can't think together. That's why Outshift by Cisco is building the Internet of cognition, transforming AI from isolated systems into orchestrated superintelligence.
- [00:48]
By creating an open interoperable infrastructure, Outshift
- [00:52]
by Cisco is enabling agents and humans to share intent to context and reasoning. The cognitive evolution for agents is here. Explore the Internet of cognition@outshift.com that's outshift.com
- [01:06]
Podcast Host/Ad Reader
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- [02:13]
Katie Drummond
From Wired. This is the big interview where we'll get to know the people beyond the headlines in conversations that explore the intersection of technology, power and culture. And Katie I'm Katie Drummond, Wired's global Editorial director. The Emmy Award winning show Hacks takes its final curtain call this month. The hit HBO Max comedy series follows the professional and personal relationship between young comedy writer Ava Daniels, played by Hannah Einbinder, and legacy comedian Deborah Vance, played by Jean Smart. It's now in its fifth and final season where we find Debra struggling to mount a comeback and under a restrictive contract.
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Lucia Agnello
Ava.
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Paul Downs
No results.
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Lucia Agnello
Unbeliev.
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Katie Drummond
Yeah, they've taken down every late night clip.
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Paul Downs
This is criminal.
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Katie Drummond
Hang on.
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Lucia Agnello
Oh, shit.
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Podcast Host/Ad Reader
What?
- [03:04]
Katie Drummond
They took down my bad too.
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Paul Downs
What?
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Katie Drummond
It's funny, moving, and ultimately has a lot to say about the business of show business. The series tackles a range of issues from the challenging relationship between Ava and Deborah to the creep of AI into Hollywood to network censorship. It's also one of my favorite shows, so if you haven't seen it, pause this podcast episode, go watch seasons one through four, and then come back because the statute of limitations on spoilers from seasons one through four is now over. And I will do my best not to spoil anything I've seen from season five. I am so pleased to welcome two of the show's creators and showrunners, Paul Downs and Lucia Agnello, who also happen to be married, which I was just telling them I had no idea until I started getting ready for this taping. So congratulations on being married and welcome to the big interview.
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Paul Downs
Thank you.
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Lucia Agnello
Thank you so much.
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Paul Downs
You should have been there. You should have been there.
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Lucia Agnello
Why didn't we bring you? That's crazy. Next time we are going to renew our 10 year at the same place, though.
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Katie Drummond
Are you. Where was the wedding?
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Lucia Agnello
It was in Italy. It was in Tuscany.
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Paul Downs
We're going to start this way. But Lucia was born there. Lucia was born in Italy, so it was. It was closer to a lot of family.
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Katie Drummond
And you were married in what year?
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Lucia Agnello
2021.
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Katie Drummond
Okay, so I have some time. So I have, like another five years to.
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Paul Downs
You have time.
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Katie Drummond
Okay.
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Paul Downs
To find your. To find your look.
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Lucia Agnello
Yes, you have time.
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Katie Drummond
A major priority for me in my life is perfecting my look. Very important to us at Wired is having our look down. Well, congratulations on final first.
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Lucia Agnello
That's Wired. That's Wired.
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Katie Drummond
Question first.
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Lucia Agnello
That's you guys, right?
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Katie Drummond
I mean, I do. Well, it's funny because we are. No, Fashion first is not my motto or Wired's, but we do work at Conde Nast and I. My boss is Anna Wintour, so Fashion first has become maybe more of a priority for me than it used to be. It's like fashion third, you know?
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Paul Downs
Right? Fashion third used to be.
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Katie Drummond
And that's 25th. Fashion third. But I will say my husband and I blew through a bunch of season five this weekend. I'm excited to talk to you guys a little bit about that, about the show, and I want to actually start by talking about women, a subject close to my heart, as I am one. But I also run a magazine that historically, you know, was run by men for years. I'm surrounded by men. They're everywhere in my life. They're everywhere in our coverage. And this show I love in particular because it centers around this relationship between these two women, I think, two women who are very powerful in different ways in their own right, and they have this very complicated relationship and this big generational gap. And, Lucia, I'm curious, you know, obviously you have another co creator, Jen, who's not here, but how did the three of you think about writing those characters? Like, what was important to you in centering the show around the relationship between these two women?
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Lucia Agnello
Well, I think one of the things that was appealing to us was the idea that, yes, there are two women of different generations and who are both comedians, and they have a lot in common and a lot not in common. But we were really interested in, like, the collaboration between two female artists because that is what they are. They are comedians who love creating work. And that is in the end of the pilot spoiler, if you haven't seen, but you should go see it. They don't get along in their initial meeting at all, and they just argue. But there's a little spark. And that little spark is they're making jokes about each other. They keep pitching on them, and they try to make it better, and you can see that it's a creative turn on for them. And so for us, the idea that these women, in the process of creating art together, become more and more entrenched in each other's lives, and it does change them as people and then therefore changes the work as well. I think we're really interested in the way that the material comes from their lives and their lives then bleeds back into the material. And so for us, you know, that was something that I don't think we had really ever seen before. And it was really exciting to us
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Katie Drummond
to kind of explore gender comes up in the show over and over. Right. I mean, both of these women, in a variety of ways, deal with sexism, with gender dynamics, with sort of gender tropes. What about what you have seen and experienced in Hollywood and in the industry sort of feeds into the way that's shown, the way that's portrayed to the audience.
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Paul Downs
Well, you know, one of the things that is really central to the show is that these are two women who are cast aside from the industry. You know, Deborah had to carve her own path and get a residency in Vegas after a very public divorce and sort of a media shaming and you know, I think that we really wanted to explore what it means to be a woman in comedy in particular, because so many women in comedy didn't have the same opportunities that their male counterparts had.
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Katie Drummond
Yeah.
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Paul Downs
One example being hosting a late night show, which becomes a central part of our series. And, you know, I think it also comes out at a time when, luckily, we're having a reckoning with the narratives around gender and around women in particular. You know, when we were pitching the show, it was around the time that the Britney Spears documentary was coming out or, you know, whether it's Monica Lewinsky or Paris Hilton or, you know, any number of women who we got wrong. I think that was another thing that sort of was a lens through which we wrote the show was, you know, about just women's stories being either untold or misconstrued because they weren't the ones who were getting to author them.
- [08:29]
Katie Drummond
In terms of sort of your backgrounds in show business and your experience in the industry, how much of that informed creating the series, creating the supporting characters, and sort of delving into what you do in seasons one through five, like, how much of it is pulled from or inspired by real life?
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Lucia Agnello
You know, not a ton, very directly, just because, you know, we came up from making Broad City. That was like kind of our first big break. So we worked on all five seasons of that. We had also done a little bit of work on the web series before it was a television show. And then we went on to work on some other projects. For example, I worked on a show called Awkwafina's Nora from Queens. And the day one of going into that writer's room, there were women in that room that were over, like, literally emotional because they were. It was the first time they were in a writer's room room where they weren't only one of two women. It was predominantly women. And I was like, oh, babe, this is my life. This is what my life is like. I only work on shows like this.
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Paul Downs
And for the record, I only work with women. I haven't worked with men. Don't know if I will. I really surround myself by cool women.
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Lucia Agnello
Yeah. And so, I mean, if anything, we've had such an opposite experience of what Denver Vance had. We had that. If anything, we're just like, this is the way that we see the world. Which is definitely more of an Ava experience. I don't think Ava has necessarily had the experience of her being a woman get in the way of her career. I think she's the person who's gotten in the way of her own career.
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Katie Drummond
Yeah.
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Lucia Agnello
Yes. But, you know, again, and I. I directed one movie, it was called Rough Night that Paul and I wrote. But I was the first woman in 20 years to direct an R rated comedy. So that's crazy. It's really just.
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Katie Drummond
That's crazy.
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Lucia Agnello
Yeah, that was in 2017. And so, if anything, we've been so blessed and lucky to have such a different experience than Deborah had. But I think we appreciate and understand the kind of path that women like her had to forge for us to have these lucky experiences. And so we are so grateful. And I think in a way, the show is an homage to the kinds of women who had to deal with so much sexism and not having the opportunities that their male counterparts had. And so this is our way of saying thank you.
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Katie Drummond
Oh, I love that.
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Paul Downs
I think in some ways it is very pulled from our own life, though. There's a lot of meta in the show just in terms of, you know, we were doing sketch and improv comedy at the Upright Citizens Brigade Theater and this other theater called the Magnet Theater in New York. And there was this sense of like, what cool comedy was, what progressive, alternative cool comedy was. So we were interested in the idea of like, cool comedy versus someone who maybe had aged out a little bit. And also because the show ultimately is about these two women and their creative collaboration, the fact that Jen, Lucia and I have found each other, we found our comedy people like, in that way. Maybe not really in terms of our experience of gender in the industry, but in the way in which the stories. I think backbone is the love language that they share in terms of their creative collaboration that is very much pulled from our life.
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Katie Drummond
I want to talk a little bit about some of the themes that you have tackled, whether intentionally or not, throughout the series. I want to start with media censorship, which is very salient for us at Wired. It's something we think about a lot. It's something we cover a lot right now, unfortunately. And at the end of season four, Deborah has this. This huge moment, right. She's finally hosting her own late night show. It's been her dream.
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Lucia Agnello
And.
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Katie Drummond
And she gives an impassioned speech supporting Ava. She blasts the network. She quits the show. It's a very dramatic way to end. Yes, yes. There are some finger gestures being made at me on screen right now. It's exactly that. You can't see it, but it's a huge moment for her. And I remember when that happened. I think it came out a couple months before Colbert was canceled. Right. That was the timing.
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Lucia Agnello
That's right.
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Katie Drummond
And you were seen as prescient. Right. Psychic. That you sort of saw this coming, this episode of, you know, what was ostensibly about cost cutting, but appeared too many to be more about censorship and sort of getting a merger through the Trump administration before you were seen as prescient, like, before you knew that that was going to happen. What were you trying to say in that moment at the end of season four? Was it purely sort of a plot decision and a creative decision, or was there a bigger message that you intended to be conveying there?
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Paul Downs
We really wanted to explore in the season the intersection, the complicated intersection of art and commerce, because, as Deborah says in that episode, she knows it's not regional theater, it's a business. You know, what she's doing is a business. But ultimately, what the show keeps returning to is the sanctity of their work. You know, the fact that comedy is sacred for her. And so the one thing that she can abide is censoring herself and also firing her voice, which is the thing that makes the show good. You know, she admits, and she acknowledges, that she's a capitalist pig herself and that she loves to make money, but she cares more about comedy than making shareholders happy. And so we wanted to talk about this thing, which is we're experiencing this disruption in our industry of what was a very lucrative industry for a century and has become something different because tech has disrupted it and because whether it's tech or not, you know, more and more under capitalism is about growth. It's not just about profit. It's not enough to be profitable for the creatives and the executives. It has to be grown. The profit has to grow. And the only way to do that is to exploit. And so we did want to explore that, even though we had no idea. You know, we knew that there was a decline in late night in terms of the viewership. But the fact that then Colbert experienced censorship, and rather than being able to say, well, I'm going to quit, they told him it was over. It was a crazy. It was really weird. It was really crazy.
- [14:07]
Katie Drummond
It was really crazy. And we're still in crazy world. I mean, we're now looking at beyond Colbert. You have the FCC investigating, you know, ABC affiliates over diversity, but really it's because. And my fact checkers are going to be upset at me here, but. But really it's because Jimmy Kimmel made a joke that the President like about his wife potentially becoming a widow. I mean, how do you feel sort of sitting where you sit and Overseeing the show that you oversee and watching that stuff play out, especially as sort of, you know, comedians, yourselves and people with careers in this industry. How do you watch this and. And what do you have to say about it?
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Lucia Agnello
I think part of the reason that it in some ways was prescient that that happened is because, you know, we are spreading authoritarian regime here. You know, we have concentration camps in our backyards. You know, this AI is becoming something that's being forced upon us in so many ways and whatever. And as these looming, nobody can afford healthcare, nobody has. Can pay their rent, whatever, gas, crazy, whatever. My point is, it's becoming increasingly unlivable to live in this country. And as a result, people are really frustrated and this government is clamping down further and further. And then who's on the front lines of saying, hey, this is really bad? Most often comedians are the people speaking truth to power.
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Katie Drummond
Yeah, it's true.
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Lucia Agnello
Of course. The first people they're clamping down on are the people who are saying, hey, this is really bad. This administration is not great. People can't live. This is really bad. And because people can take those messages, are more likely to absorb those messages when it's done in a humorous way. It's the way that you're able to spread this truth telling, which is, hey, society right now is unlivable. And because comedians are able to get that message across the most effectively, naturally that's the first group of people that they're going after in terms of free speech.
- [16:04]
Paul Downs
And journalists.
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Katie Drummond
And journalists. And journalists.
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Lucia Agnello
Which is why I'm a member and I love my Wired subscription. Subscribe now.
- [16:13]
Katie Drummond
We are so grateful and thank you so much. I'm going to have you record that as a separate ad.
- [16:18]
Lucia Agnello
I absolutely will. I will. I will sing it. And I can't even sing.
- [16:24]
Katie Drummond
Wow, thank you. I'm sure audiences will love it.
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Paul Downs
If you want subscribers, don't do that. Don't do that.
- [16:30]
Katie Drummond
The consolidation piece in the media industry and the entertainment industry is really interesting to me, and it's something that the show absolutely touches on and comes back to in a few different ways. I think one of the ways that stood out to me in season five, without giving too much away, is Deborah having this very startling realization that she pissed off the wrong boss. Right. She pissed off a guy who had the ability to take a lot of her work out of her hands and ensure that audiences would not be able to access it. I'm wondering how you see sort of that parallel with what's happening in your industry now. In terms of fewer and fewer players at the top having that kind of control over so many different networks, so many different streaming platforms. What does that mean for you in the real world outside of the show hacks?
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Paul Downs
Well, it's really terrifying because that was something that has happened. Things are removed from streamers and then you can't find them. You know, in an era where physical media is becoming less and less common, it's really scary even for, you know, we feel very, very lucky that we've been able to make this show. We've been able to say what we want on the show. We've been very supported by HBO and HBO Max, so we don't have complaints there. But it is scary that even in our position, it's still something where you're like, well, it could, it could be deleted. Yeah, yeah, it could be deleted and go away.
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Lucia Agnello
And you hear stories of, of people's personal vendettas against other people being the reason why their show's down. And those rumors are chilling because it is like, oh, yeah, one person can just be like, oh, all of your work can just be deleted. And then no one can ever see it. And it's like, you know, of course this is a career and it's a livelihood, but it's an expression of oneself. And for those things to be taken down is really scary.
- [18:23]
Katie Drummond
I want to be thoughtful about your careers and your livelihoods, but you have overall deals with Warner Brothers, right? Which is, you know, so you're getting a new dad, you're getting a new big dad at some point in the next few months. And I have a lot of friends in the news industry who are affected by that acquisition as well, of Paramount, Skydance, taking on, you know, Warner Brothers and everything that that encompasses. How are you thinking about that right now? Does that worry you?
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Lucia Agnello
We just don't know what it will look like. So, of course anything new is scary. But I mean, Warner Brothers has been so amazing, obviously, as HBO Max and the support that we have there. But also in our overall deal, like you said, Channing Duney is just like an incredible boss. If you look over at the TV side, you know, Mike DeLuca and Pam Abdy have made hit after hit after hit for that company. It's been a generational run, just like non stop huge hits. And so you look at some, at these people who are running, you know, the departments and you're just thinking, these are people who obviously are so good. And so for us, we just would love to continue to work with these people who have been nothing but supportive, so fabulous to the creative process and have been just the best. So for us, all we can do is say we love working with these people, we want to continue to work with these people, and that's all we can say or know. You know, it's just like kind of the unknowable, of course, is scary, but like, I just hope that they keep those people around because they're the best.
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Katie Drummond
We're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back.
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Podcast Host/Ad Reader
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- [21:53]
Paul Downs
Comprehensive, witty, speculative, critical Insightful, profound, wide ranging.
- [21:58]
Katie Drummond
Hopefully doesn't take itself too, too seriously.
- [22:01]
Paul Downs
I'm David Remnick, and each week on
- [22:03]
Podcast Host/Ad Reader
the New Yorker Radio Hour, my colleagues and I try to make sense of
- [22:06]
Paul Downs
what's happening in this chaotic world. I hope you'll join us for the New Yorker Radio Hour wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [22:14]
Katie Drummond
Thoughtful, exquisite. Just, you know, I have to ask you, sort of like a reality check question that fills in a blank spot for me in terms of what I do and don't know about how contracts work. So Deborah's contract becomes a major plot point at the end of season four. Going into season five, she has this, this on screen, on air sort of outburst, this impassioned speech. She quits the show, which it turns out, as per her contract, means she cannot perform for 18 months after she leaves the show. For the non entertainment industry among us, have you seen non competes like this? Like, is that pretty standard protocol? How does that typically play out?
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Paul Downs
This was a big topic for us in the writers room and luckily Guy Branham, who's a great standup, wonderful comedian and very funny comedy writer, is also a lawyer. So went to law school, is a lawyer, and he helped us really make sure that we threaded the needle in the right way because non competes are very hard to uphold, apparently. But in California, in our world, Deborah was paid out through her exclusivity clause, which was also under Florida law, which notoriously has not been the most friendly to employees. So because Florida law governed and because of this thing, we were able to say, okay, there can be a restraining order put in place so that if she were to perform or to break that restraining order, then legal action could be taken.
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Katie Drummond
You were really rigorous with how you kicked the tires. Skewed to reality on that one.
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Paul Downs
Okay, we really kicked the tires because we wanted, I mean, you know, we were painting our character into a corner, which gave us a lot to explore, but we also wanted to make it justifiable and have people not saying, well, that could never happen. And you know, the fact is, is that truth is so much stranger than fiction. Things that are happening with late night hosts and in the world don't we know it. Yeah, I'm like, that could happen. It feels absolute. Absolutely. Within the realm of reality.
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Katie Drummond
Yeah, I mean, I was, I was sort of like, you know, who up there? Like, why didn't Jimmy read the contract more closely and make sure that this woman was not like signing a deal with the devil?
- [24:33]
Lucia Agnello
So, Paul, I think Jimmy did know. I thought, I'm not defending my Man. But Jimmy knew the contract and I think Deborah knew the contract too. She just never ever could have imagined a world where she would have left
- [24:46]
Katie Drummond
because she was living the dream, so why would she ever.
- [24:48]
Lucia Agnello
Exactly.
- [24:49]
Paul Downs
I might get fired. Fine. Then they have to pay me out. I'm not going to leave. You know, that seemed, it seemed so far fetched to her. But as she says in the show, she didn't realize it, but her dream changed. You know, the landscape changed and so did she.
- [25:02]
Katie Drummond
Good reminder for everyone, read the fine print and then negotiate a better contract. I want to talk to you about AI too, which is obviously a huge and very fraught topic for us, for our audience. You know, it's been top of mind for me recently. We just closed our next print issue and package which is all about AI and work. And one of the pieces, Truth Stranger Than Fiction applies very well here. It's from an underemployed. I hope she doesn't mind me saying that she describes herself as underemployed. An underemployed Hollywood writer who's now making ends meet by doing gig work, training LLMs. And it's like her and a bunch of her friends and they're just like running from slack to slack trying to like get gigs training LLMs. It's very, very bleak. It's a very bleak story about not only artificial intelligence and how it's, how it's made, how it's trained, how these models come to be, but also about the entertainment industry and sort of what is going on with employment prospects for people. I'm curious about how you're seeing AI affect your world right now.
- [26:01]
Lucia Agnello
You know, we are hearing about it and talking about it so much, but we personally do not use it in any way, shape or form. We personally won't work with people who use it. We are completely anti AI in the creative process in any possible way. I think it's being completely forced upon the creative world as a way to minimize our talent, minimize our ability to have employment. And it's frankly insulting. And I feel badly for this woman because yes, there should be a more sustainable industry that doesn't force her to be in this position. So I'm not necessarily frustrated at her, but the system that is forcing her to be in this position. But you know, for us, and this is something that we do explore in an episode, the creative process, we got that we do not need AI coming in and disrupting the thing that is about humanity. The last thing we need in the expression of humanity is robots. Coming in and telling us how it should feel, right? How it should. Should look. And, you know, it's just. It's like, so deeply offensive to me on every level. Even if it comes down to. And I know that people feel differently about this, even if it's like, oh, I don't want to write that email. I'll have AI write that email for me. Just the fact that you're not willing to. You don't want to think. You simply don't want to think. The repercussions of people not wanting to think is so disturbing to me because really, they don't want to think because it doesn't feel good. They're literally trying to avoid feelings. And the more that we take feelings out of being human, what, and we do that over and over in every different way of our lives, where does that leave us? Not to mention the fact that people aren't reading as much because of AI and so their reading comprehension is plummeting. I mean, it's. It's so disturbing to me on so many levels. I really. I have to stop talking. I'm getting. I'm getting damn pissed off.
- [28:06]
Katie Drummond
It's okay. It's okay. I. I hear you and I understand. And. And, you know, I think what's been interesting for me, when I have sort of tried using ChatGPT, I can feel the atrophy of my own mental cognitive abilities happen so quickly that it's scary and I have to stop. Like, I don't like it because I became a journalist to write, like, to be a writer. And if I no longer write and I become complacent and I let it. I let AI write for me, then the idea of writing feels so much harder. Like, writing is already hard. It can be very hard, but the process is the point. Like, the process is how you get to that end product and you have that feeling of satisfaction and your brain is tired. And it was hard and it sucked, but it was satisfying. And I think the idea of all of us losing that and just becoming these little, like, blob bots, these little, like, blobby hanging out in our blob world, like, with our agents, doing all of our work for us, is really strange. And I'm the editor of Wired, and I think it's really.
- [29:09]
Lucia Agnello
I'm.
- [29:09]
Katie Drummond
I'm sorry. Like, I get. I get a lot of criticism from some of our former fans who don't understand why we're not all in on AI and we're not, and for a very good reason. So I. I Totally understand what you're saying.
- [29:23]
Paul Downs
Yeah, I think you're right. The argument being it makes life easier is exactly what you're saying. It takes out the grist, the thing that's hard. You know, it takes out the thinking. And I think, therefore I am. If you're not thinking, you're not existing. And I do think it's. Especially when it comes to the creative process and comedy in particular. You're a comedian because you've tried a joke a million times and it fails, and you get up and you do it again and it bombs, and you try it a different way, and then you find your voice and you figure out who you are. And I think trying to take the work and the struggle and the friction out of the creative process makes it not art. And I think even beyond that, when people say, well, it really helped me do a rendering of my backyard, now I know where I want to put my rose bushes, I'm like, that's great, but think about the cost. Think about the cost of training an LLM and how much easier it will be for a studio to say, I'm going to hire one writer and I'm going to have an LLM write all the episodes and one writer can do the rewrite. It is taking jobs away. And when there's an argument around feminism, around gender equality, we have to understand it. Well, you can understand it, but know that the thing that it's benefiting, especially in production, film production, is the top 1%. It is the people that stand to benefit the most and profit the most. It is the shareholders who get to say, we don't need a VFX house. We can just do it with this. We don't need to hire any of those people.
- [30:40]
Lucia Agnello
Okay, I have one more complaint, please.
- [30:42]
Paul Downs
I know you're like, we're going to edit all this out. It's too long.
- [30:45]
Lucia Agnello
I mean, I understand if you want to, but the other thing that is so interesting to me is if you have nothing new to say, if you're using AI to write, all it's doing is scraping everybody else's thoughts and mixing it up and maybe shifting it into your style, but it's not really saying anything new. So all you're making is just you're reheating literally everybody else's nachos. As. As it were. You're just. You're not saying anything fresh and new. And if you're not doing that, then a little bit like, why are you even saying anything as a creative in Hollywood? Why do you even want to put your name on something that some LLM has generated. Like Paul's saying, of course, if you're a boss and you don't want to hire writers, then you don't care either way. But from a creative, and I've heard about creatives who I previously really respected using AI to generate their outlines. Oh, in the style of me. And I just. I just feel, Honestly, I feel sad for them because they're just not interested in even stretching their minds forward. They're okay with just doing a average of the past.
- [31:48]
Katie Drummond
I mean, we have seen Hollywood types embrace AI very publicly. Right. I feel like there's a new one every week. There was this bizarre, like, mini scandal involving Reese Witherspoon a few weeks ago where I was like, why is Reese Witherspoon all over my Instagram talking about AI? You know, you have Matthew McConaughey investing in 11 labs. You've got really prominent sort of a list celebrities out there talking about embracing the technology. Does the industry need a more united frontier? I mean, what has to happen to sort of safeguard the creative process in Hollywood? And do you feel like that's even possible? Do you feel like you're sort of screaming into the void, or do you feel like there's enough concern and sort of enough will that there is a path forward here?
- [32:24]
Paul Downs
I mean, I want to be hopeful. I know that the Screen Actors Guild, you know, I think the unions do need to flex whatever muscle they have to help make guardrails happen, because we can do that, at least in terms of contracts with the studio, when there are negotiations. But it's really hard when it's not on a federal level, when it's, you know, I think it's. It does feel sometimes like screaming into the void. Even if you are doing protections against, like, well, you can't use my face in a movie if I don't give you permission. Like, sure, that's. That's helpful. But I think that the ramifications are so far beyond that that I don't know how you put guardrails in place. I don't know.
- [33:05]
Lucia Agnello
I also think it's garbage. I think it's a bubble that will pop because it's useless. I mean, and I'm not saying that all AI is useless. I do think, of course, in, like, medical fields and in science, there's certainly computational abilities of AI that are beyond human ability. I'm talking specifically in. In the writing. In writing especially, what, comedy or whatever. I just think it's not good.
- [33:33]
Katie Drummond
It's not Going to be good, and
- [33:34]
Lucia Agnello
it's never gonna be good. So come at me. Zeros and ones. I think you suck.
- [33:41]
Katie Drummond
Let me move on to something a little more fun. Let's end with a little bit of levity. I want to talk about fandom for a minute. So on the show, Deborah has her little Debbies. We love them. I mean, we love most of them. They're terrifying. And this season, Jimmy also meets one of his idols in a very embarrassing and adorable scene. But you sort of. You nod to fans and this idea of fandom and sort of how. How wonderful, but how insane they can be. But you also. I mean, hacks has a fandom. You've experienced the world of fandom. I was in your Reddit earlier, just checking out what people had to say. How would you describe the hacks fan base? I mean, what are the fans like?
- [34:20]
Paul Downs
Well, I only know the fans that approach me mostly or things that I don't seek it out. I don't. I don't read the Reddit.
- [34:31]
Katie Drummond
Yeah, I was gonna say, do you read the. Do you read the comments? Like, are you one of those? No. Okay.
- [34:35]
Paul Downs
I mean, I'll see comments on my Instagram. You know, I will see those comments. So I do see some of them, and some of them you can't avoid because there'll be, like, a reposting of a tweet that did really well about the show. And so you do see. I do get a sense of it, but I don't seek it out. I'm not somebody who's reading everything.
- [34:50]
Lucia Agnello
Jen and I have a more complicated relationship with it where that we both ebb and flow with our intake of the like. Like, I didn't. For example, this season, I read one review and that was it.
- [35:04]
Katie Drummond
One review, like, from mainstream press, like, from the media?
- [35:08]
Lucia Agnello
Yes. Yes.
- [35:08]
Katie Drummond
Yes. Wow.
- [35:09]
Lucia Agnello
Yes.
- [35:09]
Katie Drummond
That is very. That is a very limited intake.
- [35:12]
Lucia Agnello
Maybe a second one that somebody sent me. But originally, like, I'm very, very sensitive about the show being seen. We put so much love and care. It really is our baby. So it's like you're writing about my child, you know? And as for the Reddit, like, I ebb and flow on going to it and seeing it and not reading it at all. It really depends on, like, my emotional state in general. I believe the fandom of hacks is very lovely, really. Just mostly people who love the show, who, like, watch every episode five times or just, like, continue to rewatch and then go back to the beginning and rewatch again and are so loving and Sweet. That is, I think, how the Hax fandom is. There's, of course, like, the subsect of it, of the Avra shippers who want them to be together, running.
- [35:59]
Katie Drummond
Oh, my God. Is there Hax fanfic? I didn't even think.
- [36:03]
Lucia Agnello
Oh.
- [36:03]
Paul Downs
Oh, yeah.
- [36:05]
Katie Drummond
Oh, my God.
- [36:06]
Paul Downs
I can't believe I look for that. I am aware of that.
- [36:08]
Lucia Agnello
You are?
- [36:08]
Katie Drummond
Okay, you're both aware of the fanfic and I'm late to this. So there's my Monday annual reading. I can't wait.
- [36:14]
Lucia Agnello
I've never read it.
- [36:14]
Katie Drummond
Honestly, I haven't read it.
- [36:16]
Lucia Agnello
I read one once and as soon as it kind of like. Like graphic or something, I was like, graphic.
- [36:21]
Katie Drummond
I think that's the point.
- [36:22]
Lucia Agnello
I shouldn't be seeing this.
- [36:23]
Katie Drummond
I think they're probably all having sex. Yeah.
- [36:26]
Paul Downs
Yes.
- [36:26]
Lucia Agnello
Yeah. There's a lot of Avra fanfic and there's a lot of, like, edits, like, you know, video edits of stuff.
- [36:33]
Paul Downs
Fan cam edit. Yeah, I've seen those too.
- [36:34]
Lucia Agnello
Fan cam edit.
- [36:35]
Paul Downs
I guess I have made its way to me.
- [36:37]
Katie Drummond
Yeah. For someone who doesn't read the comments, I mean, people do send it to
- [36:40]
Lucia Agnello
us a lot often, and sometimes it's so fun, but.
- [36:44]
Paul Downs
And part of the comments that I always get are make them kiss. Make them a couple. I mean, I get those comments.
- [36:48]
Katie Drummond
I mean, I scream that at the TV when I'm watching you and Kayla.
- [36:53]
Paul Downs
Oh, thank you. There are a lot of people that. A lot of people watching me and Kayla together. Megan's.
- [36:58]
Lucia Agnello
Yeah, that is so interesting. Meg included. And you know, Kola Skolov of Omar fame was a consultant on season one. And that was kind of their first pitch was Jimmy and Kayla get married.
- [37:10]
Paul Downs
Well, after they saw season one, they texted, okay, they get married.
- [37:14]
Katie Drummond
Totally.
- [37:15]
Paul Downs
They get married in the end.
- [37:16]
Katie Drummond
Thank God.
- [37:17]
Paul Downs
I totally understand.
- [37:17]
Katie Drummond
I love that.
- [37:18]
Lucia Agnello
The Haxonistas are amazing.
- [37:20]
Katie Drummond
The Hax.
- [37:20]
Paul Downs
I will say this. The hacks fans have allowed us to have the show, allowed us to do five seasons because the fact that they have been so rabid about it and told friends to watch and gotten groups together to watch and engage online about it, all of those things. Nowadays, when people are making business decisions about whether or not a show will have another season, engagement online mentions, all of those things are factored in. And so to be honest, as much as I like, don't read because I can be sensitive, I also worship our fans. I appreciate our fans and their engagement so much.
- [37:58]
Katie Drummond
I love our fans. That's gonna end up in fanfic.
- [38:00]
Paul Downs
Oh, okay, cool.
- [38:01]
Katie Drummond
Yeah, well, it will. And then I'm curious lastly about sort of how you've promoted the show. And this might just be my algorithm. I watch the show, I follow you on social media. And so you are everywhere. On my Instagram and TikTok. Like, I know what you think the best bread in LA is. Oh, no, I've seen you tell two truths and a lie. You all have done a lot of promotion and it's very heavy on social media. And I'm wondering from sort of the earlier days of your career or sort of the, the first season of the show, obviously the show is a success, right? So more people want to talk to you, et cetera, et cetera. But have you seen the way television or, or a project is promoted change over five seasons, right? Like where everything is a social clip? Like, what stands out to you about the kind of promotion that you were doing three, four, five years ago compared to what you're doing now, where you're recommending bread? You're telling true truths and a lie. Like you're participating in many formats, right? You're, you're doing a lot of different, A lot of different brands have formats that they, that they make for social and you're in all of them. How has that changed?
- [39:04]
Paul Downs
It's wild how social clips travel and how people see them and then know about the show. You know, it used to be that, like, God, could you imagine getting on the Tonight Show? And I, and I still, I've never been on the Tonight show, would love to do it, but doing Subway Takes, I got probably as many views, you know, doing that.
- [39:26]
Katie Drummond
Oh, I'm sure. Or more. Yeah, yeah.
- [39:29]
Paul Downs
It's really, it is kind of wild. And it's also the way that things get to me because I don't, you know, I don't see the Today show every morning and I don't see an interview on the Today show, but if there's a clip from it that's really funny, that ends up finding its way to me in the same way that even late night clips, I see Colbert, I watch Colbert. But then if I've missed an episode, it's aggregated to me. The thing that, you know, the thing that it wants me to see, I do end up seeing. So it is interesting that, that it's kind of a whole new world of promoting a show. Things that you might have been like two truths and a lie. Is that really, is that really something that you want me to do? And the network's like, absolutely. And it's like oh yeah, because it's. People see it.
- [40:11]
Katie Drummond
People do see it.
- [40:12]
Paul Downs
Yeah, it was very funny.
- [40:13]
Lucia Agnello
I think part of what the reason that the hacks ones do tend to be aggregated and spread a lot is because Gene and Hannah and Paul and Meg and Rose and Carl and, and Mark, like, they, they're like, we all really genuinely like love each other and love hanging out and love chatting. And so I think that like sometimes it, it's almost like parasocial. It's like I love just watching them because personally I do. I like watching them because I'm like, it feels like they're my friends. I mean, they are my friends. But I just do feel like there's like a casual ease to the relationships that all these people have that makes it fun to watch. And so I think sometimes when it's like a movie and it's like these people knew each other for 45 days and now they're promoting a movie and they have to pretend that they're in a relationship or something with this group of people. We've become family over the course of six years.
- [41:03]
Katie Drummond
Yeah.
- [41:03]
Lucia Agnello
So really I think that there is something underneath that that is so authentic and real and these are real relationships that does make it a little bit more fun to watch.
- [41:13]
Katie Drummond
All right, another quick break here and we'll be back with our favorite game.
- [41:19]
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- [41:51]
Kai Rysdal
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- [42:28]
Katie Drummond
I'm going to end with a very quick game if you'll indulge me. Yes, okay. The game is called Control, Alt, Delete. We made it up ourselves. And you can take turns or you can each do your own. But I want to know, what piece of technology would you love to control? What piece would you love to alt? So alter or change? And what would you love to delete, vanquish from the earth? With a caveat, a disclaimer. So many people have said AI that my producers are now forcing me to get more specific. You need to say specifically, what about AI or what specific type of AI because it can't be all AI.
- [43:07]
Lucia Agnello
God.
- [43:08]
Katie Drummond
That's the only rule.
- [43:09]
Lucia Agnello
Okay, okay, I'm just gonna start with alt, which is Internet. I gotta alt Internet because on one hand, like, it's the reason I feel I have a career. Like I said, we started out on YouTube. I literally learned how to edit using YouTube and like the Internet, especially in that kind of. Right after I graduated, late aughts, early tens, like, really made my career possible. So I can't totally hate on Internet, but it just feels like, especially in, sorry to say it, this like, AI slop culture where it's like, I just don't know what's real and what's not. It's getting so scary, it's getting crazy that you cannot believe what you see. And so I do feel that, like, any. Anything that isn't real should not be allowed to be uploaded. So I'd like to control the Internet for.
- [44:01]
Katie Drummond
For accuracy. An accurate Internet for accuracy.
- [44:04]
Lucia Agnello
For accuracy. I believe if everything was just like it was forced to be completely true, then I'm like, let's go. Let's go Internet. Otherwise it's not for me anymore.
- [44:15]
Katie Drummond
It's very ambitious. I like that.
- [44:18]
Lucia Agnello
Control government. Can we do control government? Medicaid for all. Here's my hot platform. You ready for it?
- [44:24]
Katie Drummond
I'm ready.
- [44:25]
Lucia Agnello
I believe that if you get a certain college gpa, whatever it is, let's say three, five, and a certain MCAT score, whatever a good MCAT score is, that you should be allowed to go to medical school as a doctor or a nurse for free. And the government should pay for it. Because I think if you are intelligent enough that there should and you want to be a doctor and help people, that there should be no financial roadblock to doing so. And I think that everybody should be able to be a doctor. And we could solve so many issues if health care was more accessible to people in this country, including mental health. Okay, there we go for that. That's my government hotline.
- [45:05]
Katie Drummond
Lovely, wonderful Canadian. So I agree with you, dual citizen, but I lean into the Canadian thing
- [45:12]
Paul Downs
now because that's so cool.
- [45:14]
Lucia Agnello
Who wouldn't?
- [45:14]
Paul Downs
Yeah, I know why I have An Italian passport.
- [45:19]
Lucia Agnello
So you know me, I'm one foot on the damn plane.
- [45:22]
Katie Drummond
Yeah, I can imagine.
- [45:23]
Paul Downs
And what are you gonna delete?
- [45:25]
Lucia Agnello
Do you have a delete?
- [45:26]
Katie Drummond
Paul? Yeah. Do you have a delete?
- [45:27]
Paul Downs
Yeah. Do we do all of them?
- [45:29]
Katie Drummond
Whatever. Choose your own adventure. You do delete.
- [45:32]
Paul Downs
Okay, so I would control. I guess I would control social media so I'm not tagged in unflattering photos.
- [45:38]
Katie Drummond
But the photos. The photos are allowed to exist on the Internet. You just don't want to be tagged in them.
- [45:44]
Paul Downs
I can take them off. No, no, I want to be able to.
- [45:45]
Katie Drummond
Oh, you want to remove the photo.
- [45:47]
Lucia Agnello
I see.
- [45:47]
Paul Downs
Yeah. Alt, I guess I would do an alt version of Bluetooth. And actually, speaking of subway takes, this was Zoe Kravitz had this hot take, which I agree with. She's like, bluetooth does not work.
- [45:56]
Katie Drummond
That was a really good one. It doesn't work.
- [45:58]
Paul Downs
We need Bluetooth to work. My alt is I want Bluetooth. I think that would be good. But it never connect. I need it to work. So let's alt that. Let's figure it out and then delete. Even though I said I want to control social media, I think I might delete social media.
- [46:12]
Katie Drummond
I can control it by deleting it.
- [46:14]
Paul Downs
Look, I think that there's so much, like, joy and discovery that I have. I do. You know what I mean? I do enjoy keeping up with things or people or seeing that Colbert clip that I missed or whatever. But I think I am so sad for a generation of people that don't have what I had, which was not having it. It's so scary. I'm like, I don't want people looking at their phone so much. I just want that to go away.
- [46:36]
Katie Drummond
How would you promote the show, though?
- [46:38]
Paul Downs
I think if we deleted social media, I think there would be so much more interest and appreciation of journalism. I think people would have to go back.
- [46:49]
Katie Drummond
I like how you twisted that back on me section. Okay.
- [46:51]
Paul Downs
Yeah, well, you know what I mean.
- [46:52]
Lucia Agnello
How dare you ask that question?
- [46:54]
Paul Downs
Actually, how dare you? We're getting more subscribers. I think that's how it would change. If there's no social media, where are you going to get your entertainment and see a really beautiful couch? It's gonna be coverage in traditional media, you know, it's not gonna be in your Explore page.
- [47:11]
Lucia Agnello
It's gonna be an Architectural Digest.
- [47:12]
Katie Drummond
Yes. You are another fabulous Conde Nast brand. Thank you for that recipe.
- [47:16]
Paul Downs
That's right. You're reading Talk of the Town of the New Yorker. You're getting on Wired you're looking at Architectural Digest in print. You know what I mean? I'm like, you're helping Conde Nast in
- [47:25]
Lucia Agnello
any way you can.
- [47:27]
Katie Drummond
And that's really what this is all about, isn't it? Well, it's what you get up in the morning to do. I know that. Thank you both so much. This was so much fun. The series finale of Hacks will be out Thursday, May 28th on HBO.
- [47:38]
Lucia Agnello
Thank you both.
- [47:43]
Katie Drummond
The Big Interview is a production of Wired and Kaleidoscope. Content. This episode was produced by our showrunner, Ann Marie Fertolli. Kate Osborne is our executive producer. Music and mixing by Pran Bandy. This episode was fact checked by Matt Josh and I am of course, your host, Katie Drummond, Wired's global editorial director. Check back here on Thursday for the latest episode of Uncanny Valley, where Wired's writers and editors add you to their Slack channel. This week on the Political Scene.
- [48:20]
Podcast Host/Ad Reader
From the New Yorker, Trump's rupture in the world order.
- [48:24]
Lucia Agnello
Europe caught between two adversarial great powers that's basically dialing back the clock to not only Pre World War II, but really it's a pre 20th century view of the world. And I would say it's a world of permanent insecurity that we're looking at.
- [48:43]
Katie Drummond
Join me, Evan Osnos and my colleagues Jane Mayer and Susan Glasser every Friday on the Political Scene, available wherever you get your podcasts.
- [48:56]
Lucia Agnello
From prx.