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- [00:01]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
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- [02:11]
Katie Drummond
From Wired this is the big interview where we get to know the people behind the headlines in conversations that explore the intersection of technology, power and culture. Katie I'm Katie Drummond, Wired's global editorial Director. Over the next few months, ahead of the midterm elections, we've been talking to candidates in key races across the country, and there's a pretty interesting one happening in Florida. Retired Army Lt. Col. Alex Vindeman, a key witness in the first impeachment trial of President Trump, is running for one of the Sunshine State's Senate seats. That seat is the one formerly held by now Secretary of State Marco Rubio and currently occupied by Republican Ashley Moody. To unseat her, Vindman will have to first win the Democratic primary in August. And if he does, he'll go up against a Republican in a state that President Trump won by more than 13 percentage points in 2024. Vindman was considered a long shot when he launched his Senate campaign in January, but a recent poll by Change Research shows him leading Moody. He's here now to explain why he believes he's the right person for the job. Welcome to the Big Interview, Alex.
- [03:12]
Alex Vindman
Thanks. Good to be here with you, Katie.
- [03:14]
Katie Drummond
So glad to have you here. So you are maybe best known on a national level as a whistleblower. But, but you were also. And I'm gonna list several things here, and I wanna make sure I get them right. You are a more than 20 year army veteran. You were honored with a Purple Heart after being wounded in Iraq, and you were on the National Security Council. So I'm curious if you feel like your role in the first impeachment trial. I'm first. I mean, embarrassing to even have to say that of President Trump overshadows your work and your career. What would you like to be best known for if you could, if you could pick.
- [03:44]
Alex Vindman
I thought you were gonna say that. I was best known for my appearance on Curb youb Enthusiasm. A lot of folks seem to recognize me from there. You know, the public knows me from that context. I didn't necessarily recognize the impact. I was sitting, testifying in front of Congress. You know, I was the focus of the story, but I wasn't really, you know, a part of that story, at least not in my sense. I was just doing my job. But behind the scenes, a lot of folks knew me for having a pretty exceptional military career. I finally came to the US in 1979. I was four years old. We were Jewish refugees that fled from the Soviet Union. Dad landed in the US at the age of 47, hauled furniture to be able to provide for US boys. It was my older brother, my. My twin brother, a grandmother he didn't get along with. He was a primary caregiver because my mother passed away and worked my way up through their combat tours in Iraq, representing this nation in embassies in Kyiv, Ukraine, Moscow, Russia, Pentagon service, where I wrote the book on Russia and then White House on the National Security Council. That's what I was known for with regards to the professional channels. But the public obviously saw just a small sliver, a small snapshot of an army officer that was willing to speak up and do the right thing and damn the consequences, because that's what I was trained to do. So if that's all they know about me, if they know that I'm a fighter for what's right, they will call balls and strikes regardless of where the fault lies, then that's okay. That's not a bad place to be known, to be known for something.
- [05:18]
Katie Drummond
And I want to take our listeners and our viewers back in time a little bit because this was several years ago and not to dwell on that one moment, but that impeachment trial, that first one you testified before Congress about a pivotal phone call between President Trump and Ukrainian President Zelensky. This was back in 2019, and this is the call wherein Trump appears to pressure Zelensky to investigate the Bidens. Now, it has been several years, and it has been arguably dozens and dozens, if not hundreds of scandals at the feet of President Trump. What you found so troubling about that call and why you felt compelled to come forward in that moment.
- [05:53]
Alex Vindman
So, for me, as a professional, I'd been serving on the National Security Council. Russia and Ukraine were already five years into a war. And what I had witnessed was a scheme that would have undermined US national security, would have driven. That looked like it was inspiring Russia to be even more aggressive. That's the way I perceived it, and that's the fact that materialized just a few years later at full scale war in 2022. And I also witnessed what I thought was an effort to steal an election. And it was not something that could sit idly by. It was squarely in my area of responsibility. I had this large portfolio in a position of enormous responsibility, and I just did what I thought was right. It's the same thing that I trained my soldiers to do along the way. Don't walk by mistake. If you see something wrong, you've got to say something. You could make those corrections, even if it's up to the chain of command, as long as you do it respectfully and that your intent is to make sure that you're delivering on the mission. For me, it was US national security. So I don't look backwards and have any regrets. I think I modeled what I thought was good behavior for my fellow service members, for my daughter, who at the time was 8 years old. And that chapter ended almost 22 years of military service. And I'm opening up a new chapter of service after. After being forced out of the military. My wife was looking for a place to move to, to get away from politics. So we moved to Florida.
- [07:21]
Katie Drummond
You moved to Florida, a stronghold for the president.
- [07:24]
Alex Vindman
That's True. But it was also a good place for us. My best friend, for my very first assignment in the military, married a local in South Florida outside of Fort Lauderdale. We'd been going there for years. We had a natural network. We needed a better environment to raise our family, and it turned out to be an ideal setting for us. So much so that just a few months after we got there, I convinced my dad, a New Yorker that said he would never leave to move down. He's 10 minutes away from me, and we're trying to live that wonderful Florida lifestyle, but watching things slip away because it's getting too expensive, corruption is driving up costs. It is becoming increasingly unaffordable for folks on fixed income to survive in Florida. My daughter, who is 15 years old, ninth grader, she's got three years left. I want her to stay next to dad. So I'm trying to make sure that we build a Florida that's welcoming it to women, young women, that is a place that's affordable for young folks that, that are finishing up, whether they go into trades or university, that they could settle there and afford to have a good quality of life. A place where there are jobs. Unemployment in Florida is surging because of the decisions being made by this administration. And Ashley Moody, my opponent, who was appointed to that role.
- [08:39]
Katie Drummond
But let me ask you, you spent more than two decades serving in the U.S. military. You testified in this impeachment trail. Anyone who speaks out against President Trump or sort of takes that sort of very public posture, I mean, you're up against harassment, death threats. You really went through the wringer. Your wife wanted to get away from politics. You moved to Florida. Why run?
- [09:02]
Alex Vindman
It wasn't necessarily the easiest decision. My heart's been in public service my entire professional life. Served this country and postings around the world in combat, was wounded by a roadside bomb and earned a Purple Heart and witnessed the costs of poor decisions. And what that means with regards to loss of our true treasurer, our troops, squandering of billions of dollars in resources. Sounds very similar to what's going on today.
- [09:27]
Katie Drummond
Well, I mean, I have to ask about how you're looking at the conflict in Iran at this moment. I know you've spoken out against it.
- [09:34]
Alex Vindman
I think it is foolish distraction from taking care of the people of Florida. It is poorly executed. And what really troubles me is that my opponent, Ashley Moody, signed on to this war. She gave this administration to pass eight times, voted in support of this administration getting a free pass with no strategy and with deeply misprioritized with Regards to what this administration should be working on for the American people, for the people of Florida.
- [10:03]
Katie Drummond
What does that mean, a free pass? What exactly did she vote for?
- [10:05]
Alex Vindman
She voted to block an authorization of the use of military force. And this is a power that Congress has to rein in. An administration that's using force extra constitutionally, not in accordance with the laws, and she just gave him a free pass. To me, that's deeply disturbing. We just had Memorial Day and I was in Tampa attending a commemoration. We were commemorating the loss of soldiers in this war with regards to Iran. And I spoke about the soldiers and peers and friends that I lost during my combat tour. And I think that we need judicious, wise, thoughtful, and almost as important independent thinkers. Not somebody that's just there just to be a rubber stamp for power, that they're told by the administration to vote a particular way. Reliable vote, unquestionable vote. That's what we have currently with regards to the state of Florida.
- [11:00]
Katie Drummond
And was there a moment? I mean, what was it that made you say, you know what, I'm doing it seven days a week? As we were talking before we turned the mics on that you take half a day off every couple weeks. And I said a five day work week or a seven day week? And you looked at me like I was crazy.
- [11:16]
Alex Vindman
Yeah, I think the week is a day. Any day of the week is a day that ends in Y. But, you know, look, I think for me, we came to Florida and I was continuing to serve, in my view, I was continuing to serve this nation by helping get veterans elected as principled actors, working with a group that helped usher in the political careers of veterans that have sworn the same oath I have done to defend the Constitution of the United States against enemies foreign and domestic, and act as principled leaders. And I think about, in military terms, in the army terms rather, we talk about this acronym, leadership. There's an acronym for everything. Loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, personal courage as a measuring stick for your actions. So that was one way I was serving. Another way was I finished up a doctorate in international affairs from Johns Hopkins, wrote a second New York Times bestseller, lectured around the country to try to take a different approach with regards to the way we conduct ourselves around the world to secure the United States. But watching things unfold in Florida, it was a personal decision. My dad lives 10 minutes down the road. I'm paying for half of his rent in order for him to afford to be able to live there. Too many folks in Florida are struggling with the Same decisions. My daughter, three years from now, she's going to make a decision about whether she wants to stay in Florida or move on. I want her to pick Florida. Same thing that too many families are struggling with, with young folks that are making the decision to move somewhere else because it's too expensive. The opportunities don't exist there.
- [12:44]
Katie Drummond
You're running in a state where President Trump won in 2024 by 13 percentage points. There's, there is a very deeply entrenched GOP voter base in Florida. Democrats have found success in the past year, I would argue, by going harder left. Where do you identify on the ideological spectrum? Do you consider yourself a progressive? What, what labels do you apply to, to your politics? No labels.
- [13:08]
Alex Vindman
Running as a Democrat, I chafe against the idea of being pigeonholed in, you know, one spot or another. I am running as a Democrat, to be absolutely clear. No joke there. I think the important point that you made is that, you know, people are, are still to this day. And I, I see this because I'm out traveling the state extensively. I'm talking to folks around the country about why Florida is a race to watch and why we're going to win. And folks keep going back to what I think is ancient history. It is almost irrelevant at this point. November 2024, when Trump won by 13 points. That's not the reality today. That has not been the reality across the country. We've seen that in election after election now emerging as a wave. We've seen it in Florida with two special elections where the margins were Democrats showing up in force, Independents showing up and aggressively supporting Democratic candidates. What I'm seeing in less than the four months that we've had, we've done about 200 events.
- [14:07]
Katie Drummond
That seven day a week thing, again,
- [14:09]
Alex Vindman
yeah, we are out there. We're talking to thousands and thousands of people. We're not trapped in a Democratic bubble. We're talking to independents, we're talking to Republicans.
- [14:18]
Katie Drummond
Well, let me get specific here with you around some of the key issues in this race. You've talked a lot about cost and higher prices. How do you beat that back if you're elected? How do you solve that for, for
- [14:29]
Alex Vindman
Floridians, there are two things I have to deliver. This is a special election for. I've got two years to prove myself otherwise. I haven't earned the right to be reelected for a full six year term. Two things are some guardrails and accountability, making sure that we have independent minded leaders. I'm a veteran that served presidents of both parties that will make thoughtful, judicious decisions on how the executive branch is conducting itself. It's that whole co equal branch of government. Congress has abrogated its responsibilities here. As soon as we institute some guardrails, take back control over, for instance, tariffs, which is in the power of Congress, we automatically chip away at a huge price factor for every Single American family. $2,500.
- [15:12]
Katie Drummond
I think a lot of Americans have probably forgotten exactly what is within the purview of Congress to curtail because tariffs have felt like a Trump impulse.
- [15:22]
Alex Vindman
It is. And I think if we research our authorities there, it's a $2,500 tax break because the tariffs are tax. It's a $2,500 tax Break to every single family in America. If we reassert our authorities over war powers reigning in this administration that's used force on seven occasions, then we preclude what we are witnessing with regards to Iran, where over a very short period of time, over the course of weeks, price of gas has surged because we made some poor decisions about going to war without a strategy, without an exit strategy, without a thoughtful approach to the consequences of war. What we call in the military second and third order effects. The fact that you could look to attack Iran. But does that result in regime change? It hasn't. What it does result in is a closure of this very important piece of geography and a constraint on oil around the world and a surge in prices. And it's affecting everything. It's affecting grocery. It's affecting every single aspect of life for the people of Florida. I mentioned actually those things about checks and balances actually have a direct effect on costs. Tariffs is one. Avoiding other chaos and instability that drives up prices. But then we start looking at real solutions around, for instance, homeowners insurance. We have a national flood insurance program. We should be thinking about something similar with regards to homeowners insurance. Some way to buttress these big insurance companies to stay in markets like Florida, specifically in Florida, so they can compete against each other and drive down costs.
- [16:53]
Katie Drummond
You know, another major issue that. That Wired has spent a lot of time covering, particularly this year, has been immigration and has been ice. You have been vocal about ice. I think it was in one of the first videos you produced as a candidate, if I recall correctly, actually included footage of Minnesota. What is your perspective, especially looking at the state of Florida, specifically around immigration, ICE and how to grapple with what has become, you know, a really unwieldy, to say the least, situation across the country? I mean, it feels very sort of difficult to contemplate how you claw back some of the power that ICE has been. Has been bestowed. Right.
- [17:37]
Alex Vindman
Actually, I don't think it's that hard.
- [17:38]
Katie Drummond
You think it's easy defund them?
- [17:40]
Alex Vindman
No, I don't think it's defunding them. I think it's the fact that the signals from this administration have been signals of impunity, signals that have driven escalation instead of de escalation. Broader powers than what has existed for ICE over the course of multiple administrations, Democratic and Republican. They were there for Immigration and Customs Enforcement. That is a very narrow set of tasks. And they've been given a much broader mandate. I think that.
- [18:10]
Katie Drummond
How would you like to see that agency operate?
- [18:12]
Alex Vindman
I think structural reforms that make sure that the folks are getting proper training. I think the ICE agents that have been there over the course of longer careers are probably disgusted.
- [18:22]
Katie Drummond
Oh, we've reported on some of them. They absolutely are.
- [18:25]
Alex Vindman
They're disgusted with the fact that there are untrained, unqualified ICE agents being brought into the force. Folks with poor records, folks that don't have the proper temperament to be able to handle themselves. With regards to populations, I think about my time in the military and, you know, when we were in Iraq, we were operating amongst the civilian population with the intent of winning hearts and minds. Our folks were properly trained to de escalate, to limit the use of force, not going in there to crack some skulls. The way we see some of this happening. Not there with face masks on to protect identity so that they could engage in abuses. So it's masks off, it's proper training, it's making sure that they're de escalating in confrontations. That is the bare minimum. But we should also be clear that I think that both parties have utterly failed with regards to immigration reform and frankly, border security. It is sovereign responsibility of a state to control its borders, to understand who's coming in, who's coming out, the flows of populations to protect. It's a national security function. So we could have done better on this function across multiple different administrations. And we've utterly abrogated our responsibility for immigration and left billions of people in an untenable situation. Whether that's DACA kids that came here with and ended up having a legal status that's then being kind of pulled out from under them. And I'm willing to tackle some of these issues that have been too hard because it's simply the right thing to do. We're seeing under this administration cruelty, deep insecurity bred into specific communities, minority communities, communities of color. And that is, to me, it's un American. And we need to put a stop to some of these actions and activities.
- [20:05]
Katie Drummond
What does meaningful, functional, strategic border control look like to you? Given in your view, so many administrations have failed to get this right, what does it look like to get it right?
- [20:20]
Alex Vindman
I think part of the solution is simply technological that would allow us to be able to do just the basic nuts and bolts of monitoring. I think that we are missing the boat if we think just in the context of literally the border itself. The driver behind these issues is deep insecurity in different parts of Latin America and Central America. And unless we're figuring out some ways to attack the problems with regards to narco trafficking, instead of cutting programs for US Aid, figuring out how to do more to prohibit narco trafficking, understanding that there's also an economic component, that these are migrant workers that are here for. For temporary periods of time, intent to go back home to support their families doing jobs that Americans won't do. There's a formula that allows us to account for that. Migrant workers, folks that are coming here with asylum, and that we need a rapid system to make determinations. Not keeping people in limbo for years and years, not just blocking them at the border because that's the easiest thing to do, but something that is truly American and kind of speaks to our soul as a country of immigrants. I think figuring out a way to navigate all of those different interests is critically important.
- [21:36]
Katie Drummond
We're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back.
- [21:41]
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- [24:00]
Alex Vindman
uncanny this week on the Political Scene from the New Yorker, Trump's rupture in the world order.
- [24:09]
Katie Drummond
Europe caught between two adversarial great powers. That's basically dialing back the clock to not only Pre World War II, but really it's a pre 20th century view of the world and I would say it's a world of permanent insecurity that we're looking at.
- [24:27]
Alex Vindman
Join me, Evan Osnos and my colleagues Jane Mayer and Susan Glasser every Friday on the Political Scene, available wherever you get your podcasts.
- [24:47]
Katie Drummond
I want to move now to talk a little bit about technology, about artificial intelligence in particular. I mean, you would come into this role at a state level, sure, but with a great deal of national purview in a moment, at least for the next two years, to your point, where these are some mission critical conversations and decisions that need to be made in this country, I would argue about artificial intelligence. I'm curious in particular, given your background with the military and in national security contexts, how you are thinking about artificial intelligence.
- [25:19]
Alex Vindman
Your thoughts, your concerns, different layers to this. I understand it is a massive economic driver. There is no putting the genie back in the bottle. We are entering a artificial intelligence age that if shepherded the correct way, could grow our economy, produce new jobs. But we are completely missing the reality of the previous revolution, which was the social media revolution that also introduced division, disinformation and discord and mental health issues. So having folks that are thinking through and understanding lessons learned of recent revolutions and their effects, understanding that artificial intelligence could be an important driver that we want to maintain the innovative edge when there are competitors out there like China hot on our heels, looking to seize the initiative and dominate the space. I think that I'd want to start with some basic principles. One is we need to maintain the innovation edge. Two is we need to figure out how to mitigate the harm, because there will be some harm. Whether it's deep fakes that are foreign powers or even domestic threat actors deploy to malign candidates or kind of create chaos. We need to account for that. That job displacement is real. It's only going to amplify in segments of our society that are unaccustomed to having their jobs under threat. Professional class. We've seen this occur with regards to deindustrialization, with regards to blue collar workers. That's not, that's not where this is headed. Trades are not going to be affected by this. There'll probably be new jobs created. So we need to figure out and understand, you know, what that means, because it's going to be massively destabilizing with the folks that earn some of the more stable and larger incomes in our society. We also need to understand the ecological impact because in places like Florida, I think that, interestingly enough, Governor DeSantis is looking at some constraints and controls to make sure that water resources are being shepherded.
- [27:14]
Katie Drummond
I was fascinated by that. I was going to ask you about that. This was surprising for me and for listeners who aren't aware. Ron DeSantis, the Republican governor of Florida, I believe he signed a bill recently actually regulating data centers. Essentially the idea would be not to pass on utility costs of those data centers onto Floridians. That was surprising to me because candidly, I haven't heard very many Republicans talking about regulating AI in any context, let alone sort of looking at data centers in particular. Why do you think data centers have become such a political focus for both parties?
- [27:50]
Alex Vindman
They're deeply unpopular.
- [27:51]
Katie Drummond
Yes, certainly.
- [27:52]
Alex Vindman
I think the driving factor is that data centers are pricing communities out of utilities. It is creating a massive surge in costs. My twin brother's district, and he's a congressman in Northern Virginia, they're experiencing a lot of the stuff. So we need to make sure that we preserve space for residents, for small and medium businesses in communities, and that they're not priced out by massive AI companies and data centers that could just buy up all the utilities and buy up the energy supply. That's one thing that we need to account for. Water, massive consumption of water. We are suffering droughts in Florida right now, so we need to account for water usage, but there may be places to put data centers that won't have that kind of devastating effect on utilities and costs. And we want to make sure that we, we preserve enough space so that we maintain an edge. With regards to artificial intelligence, I'm willing to look at these different pockets and figure out, you know, what's the correct path, but with a first principle of do no harm, making sure we protect the local community, and also figure out if there's a way to build a 21st century economy in Florida.
- [29:01]
Katie Drummond
You talked a few minutes ago about sort of learning lessons from the social media era. And I certainly agree with you from a regulatory standpoint. And I think one of my observations during those years of sort of rapid growth of social media companies and social media usage and starting to see the damaging effect that the technology was having, especially on young people, was, you know, you would tune into some congressional test and you would have lawmakers asking questions that strongly suggested they had very little idea what they were talking about. Do you feel confident that American politicians, by and large understand enough about artificial intelligence to be in a position, if you're in office for two years and you're part of those conversations, to regulate the technology in a strategic way?
- [29:49]
Alex Vindman
I am skeptical. I'm skeptical that we have a leadership that is postured to do that. I think what we'd probably want to do is undertake a pretty deliberate process to educate ourselves, and I'm happy to play a role. This is an area that I know I need to get smarter on. I understand the big strategic. I'm a geopoliticist, so I understand the big strategic impact. But in terms of the nuances, I don't think there are too many people that have that kind of deep expertise. But it's something that I'd want to undertake and get some level of mastery of to be able to come up with thoughtful legislation that looks at the top layer, preserving innovation, doing no harm to communities. But also what this means five years from now with regards to massive layoffs and the fact that young folks are having an impossible time landing jobs right now, coming out of universities.
- [30:37]
Katie Drummond
Well, coming back to your daughter, right. I mean, in three years.
- [30:39]
Alex Vindman
That's right. What troubles me is that part of the challenge that we're seeing today within the strife in our society is that politicians from a generation ago knew that there was going to be a disruption with regards to globalization, understood that deindustrialization would mean that there are job losses, and failed, utterly failed to account for these realities because it was Too hard they were unwilling to take, to educate themselves, to communicate with the population and legislate in a way that foresaw the impacts and preserved jobs, allowed folks to gain continuing education, to retool for whatever it might be.
- [31:22]
Katie Drummond
One of the biggest growth sectors in tech is defense contracting. I'm curious if you followed the fight between the Trump administration and Anthropic and I'm wondering about how you think about AI use in warfare and whether you have thoughts there.
- [31:37]
Alex Vindman
I've been following it to a certain extent. Most of this fight unfolded as I was launching this campaign, so a little bit distracted with connecting with the voters, but it is, I think, that principles and values matter. My second book I mentioned was a study of where we went wrong with regards to Russia and Ukraine and how we arrived at this, what I've referred to as a geopolitical earthquake and this large scale war in Europe. And that if we had been less shortsighted, more focused on the long term, focused on the values that drive our involvement in Europe or in Ukraine, instead of short term interest, the shiny bright object immediately in front of us, we probably would have avoided some of these issues. So I'm very much powered by this idea of principles and values that should govern our actions. I think that it's interesting that Anthropic took a principled stand and this administration looked to punish Anthropic on that basis. I would be somebody that would speak out against that. It's also deeply concerning that we are undercutting a powerhouse with regards to innovation and future tech in the United States. And we are taking something out of the command economy playbook, the Communist playbook, where we're directing the actions of industries instead of letting free markets prevail. That's not typically where the Republican Party finds itself, but that's where it is today.
- [33:04]
Katie Drummond
You mean the Trump administration punishing Anthropic for Anthropic taking a stand around how its artificial intelligence tools were used by the Pentagon?
- [33:12]
Alex Vindman
Yes, it's a designation as a, a threat.
- [33:15]
Katie Drummond
Do you have a view on where that line should be drawn? I mean, Anthropic certainly has a view. I think other AI companies, OpenAI included, take a bit of a different one. Right. Or they put some addendums in the fine print. It's all very sort of carefully crafted and worded when these companies come out with their statements. But if you were in this seat, how would you be thinking about and talking about and voting when it comes to sort of enhancing our artificial intelligence capabilities in the context of War.
- [33:46]
Alex Vindman
So just to be clear, I don't think these are national security driven decisions. These are deeply unqualified people that are making decisions not in the best interest of national security.
- [33:58]
Katie Drummond
Oh, sure. But out of spite.
- [33:59]
Alex Vindman
But out of spite or frankly out of some sort of ideological drive, we are seeing an administration that is happy to go after perceived opponents, folks that break with this laser focused on delivering for the administration. So these are decisions that are not enhancing US national security, they're undermining US national security. So that's part of where we need some checks and balances. The Secretary of Defense should be driven by making sure that we're best armed to defend the United States against our threats, that we have the best technologies, not by some sort of ideological fight against, you know, whatever they call it now he's going to war against WOKE or whatever that means. These are not what the Secretary of Defense should be focused on. They should be focused on making sure the services have what they need at the military industrial base is equipped to defend this nation against threats. That's something that I chafe against. That we are politicizing our military or politicizing our defense industrial base for and undermining US national security. That is not something that I'm interested in letting pass.
- [35:08]
Katie Drummond
I want to ask you a few questions or talk a little bit about communication and as you have been sort of talking and when you think about politics and you think about artificial intelligence, you know, I think for a lot of people in this country, and we get a lot of this at Wired, whenever we cover AI in particular, is people in our comments or on Instagram saying like, no, I get this technology away from me, I don't want it. And I think for so many people there is this feeling of, you know, big tech foisting new innovation on them. And political leaders who for decades have been unable to adequately, you know, get the technology industry to heal, to regulate this industry in a sensible, rational, responsible way. And when you combine all of that, this feeling that you have big tech foisting innovation on you, you have political leaders who are incapable of really doing much about it, there's a real erosion, I think, of trust in the leadership of this country. And I would arguably put tech executives on the same level as political leaders because of the amount of power that they now wield in this country. How do you think politicians in the United States can win back some of that trust and that credibility from a tactical point of view? I mean, what are you doing to try to break through to voters, break through to Floridians and be someone that voters feel like they can look to, that they can trust. Because again, I think when you combine sort of big tech and politics, there is so much anger, there is so much resentment. How can political leaders in this country win some of that back?
- [36:48]
Alex Vindman
So I think a couple things come to immediately come to mind. First of all, I'm a huge proponent of accountability. I think that nobody is above the law. I think I've demonstrated that in spades. The fact is that doesn't make a difference your, your wealth or your political stature. Everybody should be subject to the same rules. I've fought for that and will continue to fight for that. I try to be clear that I'm principally driven. I measure my behavior based on the acronym leadership, loyalty, duty, respect and so on. That I try to model good behavior both for my daughter and for young folks around me. And that I'm trying to raise the bar. That's why I work so hard to help get veterans elected around the country and national security types, because they share my value set. And that we get away from this horrible era where we're dismissive of bad behavior and corruption and we just say, well, that's politics. And we give it a pass and we raise the bar and say, well, that's politics. Those people represent us. They're held to a higher standard. It couldn't get more tactical than my own personal kind of mindset. And the way I've conducted myself over the years with regards to AI, it's interesting, it is creating a huge amount of antibodies amongst the population because I think people are kind of intuitively understand the impact of social media revolution, what that's done with regards to division. They could see the danger, the danger signs on the horizon. They could see the lack of accountability from exorbitantly wealthy class of tech leaders. I don't think they're all bad. But with power, without checks and balances, without accountability, it's a corrupting force. And we're seeing some of that play out. Also, it's interesting that my daughter, who's 15, she's unplugging from some of her social media like a lot of teenagers
- [38:34]
Katie Drummond
out there, like your daughter. Deleted.
- [38:36]
Alex Vindman
Deleted. Snapchat. Wow.
- [38:37]
Katie Drummond
I mean, that's a big one.
- [38:38]
Alex Vindman
It's a big decision. Even though the incentive is you get a reward every day that you're on or whatever, whatever it is that they do, you know, she might put it back on, but she's not feeling that she hold herself to posting on a daily basis. She's also very mindful of AI potentially as a crutch or a shortcut. And she understands that if she doesn't master some some basic skills on her own, she will be struggling later on. She's pretty plugged in. She's on her speech and debate team, cross country. She just made her cheerleading squad. She's doing well in school. So we got big hopes. And my job is to deliver a Florida that's friendly and enticing and inviting for her. Lots of different challenges to undertake. This is the job of a senator.
- [39:31]
Katie Drummond
All right, another quick break here and we'll be back with our favorite game.
- [39:37]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
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- [41:10]
Katie Drummond
The Internet can be strange, absurd, terrifying, even surprisingly human. Each week on Close all tabs from kqed, we cover how the digital world is reshaping how we live and who we are. People just assume that the American Internet is this, like, free and vast frontier. And then when I started asking that question, it was impossible to unring that bell. People were asking chatbots to tell them if God exists. Listen to Close all tabs. Wherever you get your podcasts, We love to end with a little game, if you'll indulge me.
- [41:49]
Alex Vindman
Okay.
- [41:50]
Katie Drummond
I don't know if your people warned you.
- [41:52]
Alex Vindman
I don't know if I was warned.
- [41:53]
Katie Drummond
Oh, dear. Well, it's too late now.
- [41:55]
Alex Vindman
I'm agile, I think so.
- [41:56]
Katie Drummond
The doors to this room are locked. The game is called Control, Alt, delete.
- [42:05]
Alex Vindman
Control, alt, delete. What do I want to delete?
- [42:07]
Katie Drummond
Yes, I want to know. What piece of technology would you love to control? What would you love to alt? So alter or change? And what would you love to delete from planet Earth?
- [42:15]
Alex Vindman
Interesting.
- [42:16]
Katie Drummond
These are non binding answers.
- [42:17]
Alex Vindman
Sure. I'm going to go ahead and think about this for a second. We could edit this. Control. Could I cheat and say guardrails as a form of control? Right.
- [42:27]
Katie Drummond
Yes. You're controlling guardrails.
- [42:29]
Alex Vindman
No guardrails around artificial intelligence.
- [42:32]
Katie Drummond
Yes, but you need to be specific.
- [42:35]
Alex Vindman
As a technology of the future with societal impacts across employment, across how we communicate with each other, our belief in our leadership, I'd want to make sure that there's somebody accountable for decisions being made, whether that's the political class or the billionaires that are advancing the technology that they're doing because they know they're being watched, because they know that they're held accountable. They are doing what's in the best interest of society and best interests of America. So that's control.
- [43:10]
Katie Drummond
Dare to dream, Alex.
- [43:11]
Alex Vindman
Yep. You know, we're gonna. I'm ready to take on challenges, alternatives. I think that this is wired and this is a tech show. So I think if we had no alternative format to the emergence of social media, and we're much, much more mindful to the opportunities, the way it connected Americans in certain regards, pulled folks together, but also divided us and put us into separate camps. Want to thinking as a future senator, I'd want to have a way that shepherded social media to account for the damage it's done.
- [43:51]
Katie Drummond
So it sounds like you want to go back in time and alter social media's business model. I think that's what would be required.
- [43:58]
Alex Vindman
Okay, so you can do that. You didn't say you didn't use it.
- [44:01]
Katie Drummond
Yeah, you can go back in time. That's fine.
- [44:02]
Alex Vindman
That's a time machine.
- [44:03]
Katie Drummond
Yeah, you can go back in time.
- [44:04]
Alex Vindman
Okay, so if I'm on the spot about something else, alternative, I think that
- [44:07]
Katie Drummond
was a good answer. What are we deleting?
- [44:09]
Alex Vindman
Deleting. Deleting. That's interesting. Hmm. You know, I guess I'm gonna filibuster to her extent. But I'm a big believer that like, you know, you have a chain of effects that results in where you are today. And if you deleted something, especially if there's something super important and I'm a bit of a like a sci fi nerd if you can't.
- [44:29]
Katie Drummond
I was about to say this sounds like many sci fi shows I've seen.
- [44:32]
Alex Vindman
So what would happen? What's the butterfly effect of deleting something you know, in the past that you know, who knows what, where we end up? So I would be very, very cautious about deleting something today. I got it.
- [44:46]
Katie Drummond
Okay.
- [44:47]
Alex Vindman
Recent history. I would have deleted this. Iran war.
- [44:51]
Katie Drummond
Wow. Delete a war. That's the first.
- [44:54]
Alex Vindman
Yeah, delete a war. Because this war is going to leave this country weaker. It's going to leave us financially weaker. It's going to leave us structurally weaker in our role in the world. It's going to create opportunities for adversaries to advance their malign efforts around the world, their malign systems, their malign influence. There's a very real chance that this administration is going to mismanage the end of this war. And it leaves Iran in a position where it controls this important strait of who moves this piece of territory. And in that scenario, it means that Iran has a stranglehold over this very important waterway. I'd want to delete this war as a recent event that is also crushing people around the country and in Florida.
- [45:45]
Katie Drummond
If only this game were real life. Alex, thank you so much for being here.
- [45:49]
Alex Vindman
That was great. Appreciate it.
- [45:51]
Katie Drummond
I've never had anyone delete a war before. I liked that.
- [45:52]
Alex Vindman
Yeah.
- [45:57]
Katie Drummond
The Big Interview is a production of Wired and Kaleidoscope content. This episode was produced by our showrunner, Ann Marie Fertoli. Kate Osborne is our executive producer. Music and mixing by Pran Bandy this episode was fact checked by Samantha Spangler and I am of course your host, Katie Drummond, Wired's global editorial director. Check back here on Thursday for the latest episode of Uncanny Valley, where Wired's writers and editors add you to their Slack channel.
- [46:33]
Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser
The economy never stops shifting. Markets move, global trade gets disrupted and policies shift. And all these factors have a tremendous influence on the ways we live and work. I'm Kimberly Adams, host of Marketplace Morning Report, a daily 10 minute podcast where a team of award winning reporters helps you make sense of our evolving economy. Listen to Marketplace Morning Report on your favorite podcast app
- [47:02]
Alex Vindman
from prx.