Trump’s Tech Posse in China; Who’s Winning in Musk v. Altman?; Hantavirus Conspiracy Theories

Summary

Uncanny Valley | WIRED

Episode: Trump’s Tech Posse in China; Who’s Winning in Musk v. Altman?; Hantavirus Conspiracy Theories
Date: May 14, 2026
Hosts: Zoë Schiffer, Brian Barrett, Leah Feiger

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Overview

This episode of Uncanny Valley delivers a sweeping insider analysis of Silicon Valley and D.C. this week, zeroing in on three headline stories:

• The final week of the Musk vs. Altman trial – pulling back the curtain on OpenAI’s leadership drama and what’s at stake for Silicon Valley’s two largest egos.
• President Trump’s visit to China with a handpicked coterie of major tech CEOs – dissecting the symbolism, stakes, and unanswered questions swirling around big tech’s role in US-China relations.
• A surge in hantavirus conspiracy theories circulating online, echoing the misinformation dark arts honed during the Covid era.

With on-the-ground reporting, group banter, and characteristic wit, the team unpacks the human drama behind the headlines and probes how power, money, and hype shape the trajectory of tech and global affairs.

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Segment 1: The Musk vs. Altman Trial

Discussion: 03:15–12:24

Key Discussion Points

• The Central Grievance: Elon Musk alleges that Sam Altman and Greg Brockman broke the original philanthropic vision of OpenAI by pursuing a for-profit arm without his blessing, allegedly violating conditions he attached to his $38M donation.

  • Statute of limitations & timing games: Musk claims he only realized the scope of the betrayal after Altman’s 2023 ouster, an attempt to reset the legal clock.

• Testimony Highlights:

  • Noted witnesses included ex-OpenAI Chief Scientist Ilya Sutskever, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella, and Sam Altman himself.
  • Altman defended himself as "an honest and trustworthy businessperson" [04:17], while Musk’s camp painted him as duplicitous.
  • Revelations included Musk reportedly suggesting OpenAI could be turned over to his children—a moment that stunned the hosts.
    • Quote: “Apparently Elon Musk was just going to hand OpenAI to his children. Am I misstating this? Did that happen?” (Leah Feiger, 05:08)

• Public Embarrassment as Strategy:

  • Zoe observes that while Musk’s legal case may be weak, he succeeds in forcing Altman and others to air embarrassing, reputation-battering details.
  • Notable moment: Internal text messages and memes (e.g., “directionally very bad” texts from Mira Murati to Altman during his ouster) go viral [06:39].
    • Quote: “It was everywhere. Yeah. I mean, what was going on at this time is... I feel like we went from knowing Sam Altman was ousted as CEO... to now, I've gotten to the point where I'm like, I actually know way too much.” (Zoe Schiffer, 06:50)

• Who's Winning in the Courtroom and Public Opinion?

  • Both sides are painted as power-obsessed visionaries (or egotists), and neither emerges with their reputations enhanced.
  • Leah points out Altman's regulatory push isn’t just for the public good—it's strategic, helping OpenAI shape a favorable landscape [09:36].
  • Quote: “I do think Sam Altman really has a reputation as being untrustworthy and that reputation has only been cemented over the course of this trial.” (Zoe Schiffer, 08:19)
  • The growing role of AI “regulatory capture” is flagged as a new mode of tech power [10:36].

• Fun Anecdotes:

  • Sutskever’s shares in OpenAI valued at $7B [11:22].
  • Courtroom absurdity: OpenAI tried to submit a “donkey’s ass” statue as evidence, tied to an anecdote where a departing Musk called an employee a jackass [11:39].

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Segment 2: Trump’s Tech Posse Goes to China

Discussion: 12:24–19:08

Key Discussion Points

• Trip Composition & Symbolism

  • Trump’s China visit is his first as president in nearly a decade, accompanied by Musk, Tim Cook, Larry Fink, and (last-minute addition) Nvidia’s Jensen Huang.
  • Not just business leaders—Fox News’ Sean Hannity and filmmaker Brett Ratner are also on board, underlining the trip’s broad spectacle rather than pure policy goal [14:20].

• Geopolitical Context & Uncertain Goals

  • The trip was postponed due to ongoing US-Israel-Iran tensions.
  • Brian questions if there’s any real policy progress to be made, given deep economic and security rifts between China and the U.S., especially over chips and AI [13:10, 18:16].
  • Quote: “It seems like we are pretty well stuck, which, again, that's what diplomacy's for... But I don't think Brett Ratner's gonna get us there.” (Brian Barrett, 18:53)

• Personalities & Power Plays

  • The musical chairs around who got included (e.g., why Jensen Huang almost missed out) raise questions about who really holds influence.
  • Leah: “I think the President may have just forgotten him.” (Jensen Huang) [15:35]

• Musk’s Global Influence

  • Musk’s mother, Maye Musk, is apparently a celebrity in China—a fun fact [16:23].
  • Pentagon once briefed Musk on US-China war plans, showcasing his entanglement in geopolitics [16:35].
  • Despite Musk’s fallout with Trump (including online attacks), he remains at the highest levels of influence.
    • Quote: “It turns out that you can imply the President is a pedophile and still get invited to China if you have enough money.” (Zoe Schiffer, 17:25)

• Tariff and Trade Tensions

  • The tech visit occurs amid unresolved trade disputes and tariffs, with both sides showing little sign of compromise.

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Segment 3: Hantavirus Conspiracy Theories

Discussion: 19:08–27:06

Key Discussion Points

• Health Scare Recap

  • Leah’s concern level has dropped (from 7 to “maybe like six and a half out of ten”), due to increased attention and action from authorities [19:29].
  • Wired reporting charts the CDC and international reaction, and the development of new diagnostic tests at the University of Nebraska.

• Misinformation Renaissance

  • Familiar patterns from Covid resurface as “wellness influencers and grifters” push recycled conspiracy theories:
    • Claims of population control
    • False links between Covid vaccines and hantavirus
    • Ivermectin again hawked as a (baseless) cure [21:56]
  • “Conspiracy theorists, wellness influencers and grifters have all started promoting wild claims about the outbreak... using the same playbook as Covid.” (Leah Feiger, 21:56)

• Government Messaging Void

  • Unlike the Covid era, “there's not a Fauci” or strong CDC/HHS voice debunking rumors, creating a vacuum for conspiracies to flourish [22:11].
  • Quote: “This lack of communication gives so much space for conspiracy theories to grow.” (Leah Feiger, 22:11)

• Predatory Grifting

  • Wild products hit the market, like “$325 contagion emergency kits” sold to the fearful [23:23].
  • “You have, at the root of so many conspiracy theories, unfortunately very understandable kernels of fear... It's like people, everyday folks, who are just being taken in by this.” (Leah Feiger, 23:23)

• Optimism from Rapid Response

  • A new test for the Andes strain was rapidly developed at the University of Nebraska, spearheaded by Peter Iwen [24:48].
  • Cooperative effort among multiple labs.
  • Moderna is working on an mRNA vaccine as a contingency [26:10].
  • “It does feel like we're in a better place or at least the competence is starting to shine through in a way that's reassuring.” (Brian Barrett, 26:10)

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Wired & Tired Segment

Discussion: 29:20–32:23 (selected)

• Brian’s Tired: Sitting on bleachers at his kids’ ceremonies.
• Brian’s Wired: Butt pillows, inspired by the “fancy people” at the Musk v. Altman trial bringing cushions to court [30:11].
  • Quote: “I've been inspired by these people, they are so wired, by giving their cushion a little cushion.” (Brian Barrett, 30:37)
• Leah’s Tired: Uninspiring, repetitive Broadway seasons.
• Leah’s Wired: This year’s Broadway—“It’s camp, it’s absolutely camp… I just saw Titanique, which is the Celine Dion take on Titanic. Incredibly funny, incredibly queer.” [30:52]
• Zoe’s Take: Feels misunderstood about not liking theater—“I care. Medium. I just don’t live in New York. I never have, never will.” (32:23)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “It was a suggestion. Yeah. So, I mean, this is crazy.”
  — Zoe Schiffer on the Musk-to-his-children anecdote (05:10)

• “I think it's a bit more complicated. I do think Sam Altman really has a reputation as being untrustworthy and that reputation has only been cemented over the course of this trial.”
  — Zoe Schiffer (08:19)

• “It turns out that you can imply the President is a pedophile and still get invited to China if you have enough money.”
  — Zoe Schiffer, on Musk’s continued access to power (17:25)

• “Conspiracy theories around health are nothing new… A lot of them that are really using the same playbook as Covid.”
  — Leah Feiger (21:56)

• “You have at the root of so many conspiracy theories… kernels of fear. Everyday folks are just being taken in by this.”
  — Leah Feiger (23:23)

• “It does feel like we're in a better place or at least the competence is starting to shine through in a way that's reassuring. That gets you to a six.”
  — Brian Barrett (26:10)

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Additional Notes & Context

• Trial Drama: Courtroom evidence included memes, viral texts, and even proposed donkey statues.
• Power Symbolism: Trump’s tech CEO travel squad is as much about optics and power signaling as it is about policy substance.
• Conspiracy Economics: The hosts highlight that misinformation is a business—for some, selling supplements and panic kits is the real payday.
• Health System Readiness: Despite government messaging lapses, scientific coordination and rapid test development give some cause for measured optimism.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Musk v. Altman trial deep dive: 03:15–12:24
• Trump’s tech delegation to China: 12:24–19:08
• Hantavirus conspiracy theories & public health response: 19:08–27:06
• Wired & Tired (lighthearted segment): 29:20–32:23

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For more coverage and source material, see WIRED’s show notes, linked stories, and the latest reporting on these topics.

Transcript

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Zoe Schiffer]

welcome to Wired's Uncanny Valley. I'm Zoe Schiffer, Director of Business and Industry.

[Brian Barrett]

I'm Brian Barrett, Executive Editor.

[Leah Feiger]

And I'm Leah Feiger, Director of Politics and Science.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Today on the show, we're diving into the final week of the Musk V. Altman trial. The high profile testimonies we've heard this week, including from OpenAI CEO Sam Altman himself, have resurfaced a lot of past events and a lot of drama. But we're asking, will this actually be consequential to the trial's verdict.

[Brian Barrett]

Also happening this week, President Trump is headed to China. He's accompanied by a select number of Silicon Valley's top CEOs. We'll discuss how their presence could influence conversations between world leaders at a moment when the economic and foreign policy stakes could not be higher for the U.S.

[Leah Feiger]

we'll also get into the wild conspiracy theories that have been increasingly swirling around the hantavirus. From wellness influencers to grifters, a lot of them have been recycling very similar conspiracy theories from the COVID 19 pandemic. We're going to tell you what they're sharing and also how to spot this kind of harmful misinformation.

[Zoe Schiffer]

So we're wrapping up the final week of one of the most consequential and honestly one of the pettiest trials in Silicon Valley history, the one between Elon Musk and Sam Altman. The last time we spoke about the trial, we were still at the very beginning figuring out who was going to speak and what they were going to say. But now we've heard Musk's team put forth their key argument, namely that Sam Altman and OpenAI President Greg Brockman deceived him by creating OpenAI's for profit arm instead of keeping OpenAI as a classic charity. This week we heard from some of the key people who have been central to both the past and the present of OpenAI. We're talking about Ilya Sutskever, who's the former OpenAI chief scientist, who is part of the effort to briefly oust Sam Altman as CEO back in November 2023. We also heard from Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella, who is one of the earliest backers of OpenAI. And finally, Sam Altman himself took the stand.

[Leah Feiger]

Appearing in federal court in Oakland on

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Tuesday, OpenAI CEO Sam Altman testified that

[Leah Feiger]

he believes himself to be, quote, an

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

honest and trustworthy businessperson.

Testifying for the first time in the

[Brian Barrett]

landmark trial, Altman said that it was

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Musk who had sought to seize control of OpenAI and make money from it.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Brian Leah, I feel like I am so close to this. I have two reporters who are in the courtroom every single day. I'm curious for your perspective on everything we've heard so far. What do you think about what's happened in this trial, which could be wrapping up, at least in terms of major testimony Thursday this week?

[Leah Feiger]

This is Must See tv. I have been particularly taken with the business desk's reporting on this, and I think it was just a few days ago a piece that came out about Sam Altman's testimony on how apparently Elon Musk was just going to hand open AI to his children. Am I misstating this? Did that happen?

[Brian Barrett]

No, no, that's right.

[Leah Feiger]

What?

[Zoe Schiffer]

It was a suggestion. It was a suggestion. Yeah. So, I mean, this is crazy. Just to back up a little bit, Elon Musk has had to convince the jury of two key things. One was that he attached special conditions to the $38 million that he gave OpenAI. And it's very early days, and that Greg Brockman and CEO Sam Altman violated those conditions. The other one, and this is really tricky, is he only realized that it had violated these agreements in, like, 2023, when Sam Altman was ousted as CEO. And that's because the statute of limitations on this lawsuit, like, expired way before that he left OpenAI years before. And so he's basically trying to start the clock around the time that Sam Altman left the company and then came back saying, like, I didn't realize until then that things were as bad as they are. I will say that from my perspective so far, he hasn't made a really strong case. But what he has done really, really well, I think, is embarrass. Embarrass Sam Altman in many, many ways by forcing him to sit there as various people he worked with over the years basically called him untrustworthy.

[Brian Barrett]

Yeah, there's been a parade of people and also text messages from the like. I think a fun part about trials and the legal process is that there's the discovery process, which means that you get to read all kinds of emails and texts. The most fun from when bad things are happening. May it never happen to any of us. But there was a very cowardly time. I believe, Zoe, correct me here. It was opening eyes. Sam Altman had texted Mira Moradi about how things were going around the time of the lip, and she wrote back that it was directionally very bad.

[Zoe Schiffer]

This became a meme.

[Leah Feiger]

Oh, I mean, they're everywhere. It's like the screenshots of those texts.

[Zoe Schiffer]

It was everywhere. Yeah. I mean, what was going on at this time is. This is so interesting because I feel like we went from knowing Sam Altman was ousted as CEO, and everyone was like, why did it happen? And literally for weeks, if not months, it was like, we probably will never know the real reasons he was kicked out. Then he came back. We're just. It's just going to be a mystery now. I've gotten to the point where I'm like, I actually know way Too much. I've had three different incredible writers describe the look on Sam Altman's face when he was on the zoom at the racetrack, realizing that he was like no longer going to be the CEO.

[Leah Feiger]

Incredible.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Mira Maratti was being asked to step in as interim. She's like texting with Sam Altman on the side as she's with Satya Nadella kind of negotiating between all of the parties. But yes, at one point Sam was, I think very, very stressed and anxious. He was having to lay down on the floor because he was so overwhelmed with the events. And he was texting Mira, what's going on? And she, yeah, classically said directional things are very bad.

[Leah Feiger]

I, I have to ask, obviously, like so much dirty laundry is getting aired here about the history of the company, about where things are now, about all of these different stakeholders. Who's winning, what's what, who. Like, I know that we are not the, the judges and jury here, but what, what can we tell about what's been shared and how it's been received?

[Zoe Schiffer]

Yeah, it's such a good question. And I think the fascinating thing about a jury trial is we just really don't know. Ultimately it's up to the judge to decide, but the jury's kind of decisions and what it think what's been said so far will weigh heavily into that decision. And so, you know, I don't know what the jury thinks so far, but in the court of public opinion, which I think is a really important aspect of this trial and the reason that Musk is moving forward with it in a lot of ways, I think it's a bit more complicated. I do think Sam Altman really has a reputation as being untrustworthy and that reputation has only been cemented over the course of this trial. And I think one interesting thing that I was thinking about yesterday when I was watching testimony was that Sam Altman and OpenAI has really been trying to position Elon Musk as this like power hungry figure who was trying to get control of a frontier AI lab and then bitterly filed a lawsuit when he was unable to retain that control. But my takeaway from everything I've seen so far is that Elon Musk and Sam Altman are actually very similar in a lot of ways. Sam Altman has this great quote about Elon Musk that he gave the New Yorker years ago where he said, elon Musk desperately wants to save the world, but only if he can be the one to save it. I don't know Sam Altman, I kind of get Similar feelings about him. Like I do think he has these really lofty visions of how he thinks AI can improve the lives of many people and change the world in a positive way. I think it's really important to him that he is deeply involved in that effort.

[Leah Feiger]

I mean not to wrench this back to politics, but like, I can't help myself. It's been really fascinating and we were quite literally just talking about this in Slack this morning, watching as OpenAI, obviously led by Sam Altman, is working to introduce these like state leveled regulations for AI usage. And like watching this in some ways like level up from California and New York and Illinois from like all these like small little plants, but like seemingly level up to like this larger federal regulation landscape. And that is like very clearly in OpenAI's best interest. Like this is not regulatory in the sense that we're all thinking of. He has a vision here and like in all of the different ways. So like I very much hear you on the like saving the world, putting in the regulations as I see fit.

[Brian Barrett]

It was just a few weeks ago that OpenAI published their sort of like here's how we think the future economic systems need to work and future policy. There's big policy paper, but also we're kind of backing off of Universal basic income because we think there's probably another way. But we'll get back to you on what exactly that is. It's a little muddied.

[Leah Feiger]

Messages from above.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Yeah. Knight published in AI Lab, his AI newsletter this week, a little piece. The whole bottom of his newsletter is new research that's coming out and it's actually really, really interesting. But one thing that caught my eye this week was that he talked about what we know so far about regulatory capture in the AI industry and how AI companies are really involved in shaping and slowing regulations, which is something that I think is on one level obvious, but now we're actually seeing data to back it up.

[Brian Barrett]

I want to go back to the trial real quick. Just one more thing that I enjoyed because again, the discovery is my favorite part. Ilya Suskover, who was an original OpenAI employee. Leah, do you want to guess what his stake was there?

[Leah Feiger]

His stake is worth, I'm assuming in the billions.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Correct? Right, correct.

[Leah Feiger]

Three billion, four billion.

[Brian Barrett]

Seven billion dollars.

[Leah Feiger]

Wait, is he with them anymore?

[Zoe Schiffer]

No, he is not.

[Brian Barrett]

He's got his own thing and he is actually, if anything he split with Sam Altman pretty publicly.

[Leah Feiger]

Why is there so much money here? Like not even just like for all of this. There is just so much money. I can't even comprehend how much money is involved here.

[Zoe Schiffer]

It's so much money. And we're not even talking about anthropic at this point, which borderline valuation could be even higher than open eyes on any given day. I personally loved on Wednesday when open, I brought a small statue of a donkey's ass to court and tried to include that in the official record. The judge said, I don't want it. We can talk about it, but please don't give it to me because then the court has to take possession of it. Apparently, Elon Musk, when he left, had a tense interaction with an OpenAI employee and called the employee, I think it's the current Chief Futurist of OpenAI or something like that, a jackass. And then this guy's colleagues gave him the trophy as a joke. Now it's part of the official record, so love that.

[Brian Barrett]

Wow. Iconic Elon Musk has been very busy. This is not the only thing on his agenda. He is also one of just a few CEOs that are joining President Trump to his state visit to China. It's the administration's first one since almost a decade ago. In addition to Musk, you've got Apple's Tim Cook, or Tim Apple, as Trump likes to say, Larry Fink of BlackRock. And my favorite story behind this, Nvidia's Jensen Huang, who was not included on the trip. There were lots of news reports about how he was not included on the trip and how he had volunteered to go on the trip and was still not included on the trip until finally he met them in Alaska and got on the plane just in time to make it to China.

[Leah Feiger]

Persistence as Air Force One refueled in Anchorage. It's just incredible stuff. You can't make it up. You can't make it up.

[Brian Barrett]

The trip was originally scheduled to happen about two months ago, but it was postponed because the US And Israel went to war in Iran. And that obviously complicated all kinds of things. Now, the visit comes at a time when the war is still ongoing, in addition to all kinds of other hot button issues, trade, AI regulation, you name it, that involve both China and the U.S. you know, the timing. They were going to do this trip at some point, Right. But the timing still seems a little bit odd to me in that, you know, China is one of Iran's key economic and diplomatic partners. There are so many tensions on so many levels between these two countries, and it doesn't feel like there's any real progress in the works. You know what I Mean, it doesn't feel like we're at a moment where, oh, we're finally going to figure out trade, we're finally going to figure out AI, we're finally going to figure out how to stop hacking into each other's systems and stealing everybody's personal identity. None of that seems to be imminent. And I guess you only get there by talking, but I don't know, it seems like a strange time to do this if you actually want to get anything done. So I guess, Leah, my question to you is, does anybody actually want to get anything done here? What's. What are we doing?

[Leah Feiger]

It's such a great question. I guess, like, the first thing that I really, really want to talk about, though, is regardless of what the plans are here, obviously we have Iran happening. You have the chips battle, you have, like, all. All of these different, like, AI strategy machinations. But what's really, really interesting to me as well is that I'm very much getting, in some ways, inauguration vibes. Like when Trump surrounded himself with, like, the tech leaders. Everyone's lined up in a row, and that's, like, not dissimilar to what's happen. And it's very, very hard to argue that it's like, no, no, no, it's just the tech people, because we're only focused on tech. You know who else was on this plane? Fox News personality Sean Hannity, filmmaker Brett Ratner. Like, he has assembled a motley crew

[Brian Barrett]

of, like, best and brightest.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Yeah.

[Leah Feiger]

And so. So I'm just like, no, no, no. This is clearly, like, not just about tech. This is, like, about showing very specifically who Trump's allies are and being able to, like, position himself in front of a country and leader that he hasn't seen. Spent a lot of time with recently.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Since we're still talking about the people that he is going to China with. What do we know about why Jensen Huang was left off the list and then re added last minute? Because my thought when I saw it was, oh, this is about export controls. And they think it's going to be kind of, like, weird and complicated to have him on the trip. But then obviously he is now on the trip.

[Leah Feiger]

So someone who I cannot name someone said to me, oh, I think the President may have just forgotten him. To which I laughed.

[Zoe Schiffer]

You remembered Brett Ratner and you forgot.

[Leah Feiger]

No, I was like, this is not true. Like, this is just not. It's just like, not even sort of true to the point where I was like, I'm. I'm sorry, you. You're expecting me to entertain this right

[Zoe Schiffer]

now, I would absolutely buy that Trump forgot this man. But I'm like, Trump has other people around me.

[Leah Feiger]

You didn't forget this man? No. There's no way on earth. I was very much just like, uh huh, yeah, yeah, yeah, keep it moving. And obviously, guys, we have to talk about the Musk of it all. I know that Elon has been making his appearances back at like a variety of White House or White House adjacent events, but this, this does feel like such a big moment for him to be on the international stage again by Trump's side.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Did you know that Elon Musk's mother is like low key, a celebrity in China?

[Brian Barrett]

Maye Musk. International model Maye Musk.

[Leah Feiger]

Wait, new information.

[Zoe Schiffer]

People are obsessed with her there.

[Leah Feiger]

What?

[Zoe Schiffer]

Just a little fun fact.

[Brian Barrett]

I want to take a moment too, not to get away from Maye Musk. We can talk about Bay Musk all day long. About a year ago when the Pentagon set up Musk for a war briefing about what would happen if the US Went to war. Do we remember this one?

[Leah Feiger]

I do.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Oh my gosh. I fully forgot about this. Yes.

[Brian Barrett]

The Pentagon invited Musk over to check out what the war plans would be if we went to fight China over Taiwan. And that got scuttled, apparently before he went. This was a New York Times report. But it is how far we've come and how not far. I don't know if I'm China, I don't think I want to see Musk anywhere near this coalition. And if I'm Musk, I'm feeling pretty great about the level of influence I now have again. And maybe I get a chance to look at those war plans again. Maybe I can sweet talk. Petekseth.

[Zoe Schiffer]

It turns out that you can imply the President is a pedophile and still get invited to China if you have enough money.

[Leah Feiger]

100%. I mean, maybe they also forgot those ex posts too. Just a lot of forgetting happening all over the place.

[Brian Barrett]

I know.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Beautiful for them. They're just moving right along.

[Leah Feiger]

Also around this time, maybe, maybe a little bit more than a year ago. But we're also talking about the tariffs that the Trump administration worked very hard at levying against China. So the fact that there's an expectation of a discussion between Trump and Xi about like the US China Board of Trade, the US China Board of Investment, et cetera, et cetera, is very, very interesting to me. And I'm sure, like, if this all works out, Trump is just going to say that the tariffs were all like he was Playing hardball. And you should just read that in chapter four of his. But I'm very curious about how this will be received in China.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Yeah.

[Brian Barrett]

And it gets back to, are we actually going to see anything happen here? I think it seems very unlikely that a board of trade or board of investment is going to happen. I'd be happy to be wrong, I guess. Jensen Huang is making the trip. It seems very unlikely that we're going to have any kind of cooling off period in terms of export controls or in terms of. China is investing very deeply in building up their own chip infrastructure and going it alone like that is a major priority for them. And I think the idea that they could be. I don't know, it just seems like we are pretty well stuck, which, again, you know, that's what diplomacy's for, is to get past these moments. But I don't think Brett Ratner's gonna get us there. I don't know that.

[Zoe Schiffer]

How dare you? Did you see that Melanio documentary?

[Brian Barrett]

So, apologies. Apologies. That's true. I'm sorry.

[Leah Feiger]

Sorry, Brian.

[Brian Barrett]

I know you guys are huge rat heads.

[Leah Feiger]

Rush hour's my life.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Brian Barrett]

But I had to say it. I had to speak my truth.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Leah Feiger]

No, I appreciate that about you, always. Well, I'm really excited to keep an eye on how this trip unfolds, and I'll obviously keep you posted if anyone continues to try and spin me in whatsoever direction. But in the meantime, there is so much to talk about us side, including, obviously my favorite topic of the moment, the hantavirus outbreak.

[Brian Barrett]

Leah, what's your concern level right now? Before you keep going? What is. Where are you at? Because you've been.

[Leah Feiger]

I would honestly say I'm less concerned right now than I was a week ago, but it is still definitely something I'm thinking about.

[Brian Barrett]

Okay, I'll take it like a seven out of ten.

[Leah Feiger]

Maybe like six out of ten even.

[Brian Barrett]

Whoa.

[Leah Feiger]

Maybe six and a half.

[Brian Barrett]

Honestly, like, my baseline for life is like a five. So I feel like if you're just like a nacho of that. That's. That's great. You're doing. You're doing amazing.

[Leah Feiger]

I think part of it for me is, you know, look, this is a developing situation. We had a really helpful check in about it with Wired's Emily Mullen in last week's episode, and she's put out some really good report in the last few days as well, talking to an infectious disease expert and also looking very specifically about hantavirus test developing that's happening in Nebraska, where some of these people who have perhaps contracted the virus are being sent from the ship. So other people are thinking about this too, which is perhaps all I wanted. Brian. Like, this was like two weeks ago when I was like, guys, this is happening. Where is the cdc? Where is the US Response on this? Like, what is happening? And now finally this week, I'm like, oh, good. There's like a shit ton of international concern. And that's kind of all I wanted here. I wanted attention on this. So that's. That's perhaps what's making me feel slightly better about it. But I will say there's another pattern that has really been bringing up, especially like in the last, I would say, five, six days or so, which is the rise of conspiracy theories around it. Look, conspiracy theories around health are nothing new. I think that we all experienced a very intense rash of them during the COVID pandemic. Wired's David Gilbert this week he reported on how conspiracy theorists, wellness influencers and grifters have all started promoting wild claims about the outbreak. A lot of them that are really using the same playbook as Covid, saying that it's another way to control the global population, pushing this false narrative that the COVID vaccine caused hantavirus. And also in a very fun and not totally unexpected twist, some people are even promoting and selling Ivermectin. Yes, the horse deworming drug, as a treatment. It's back. It's back. With no evidence obviously whatsoever to back this claim. This has really been spreading all over the Internet and all of the usual places. It's taking on a really interesting life that while the COVID conspiracy theories very much did as well, something that's a little bit interesting and a little bit different, at least in this very specific moment, is you're not actually. We don't have a fauci that's going, no, no, guys, this is not what's going on. The CDC and HHS are not built for that anymore. Like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Our, our lovely HHS secretary is not getting on like a public radio program every day. He's not sitting in on the news going, like, don't worry, here are the steps that we're taking. X, Y and Z. So this lack of communication gives so much space for conspiracy theories to grow. And experts that David spoke to were just like, this is obviously going to continue with a lack of information. Even if other infectious disease experts are going, this is not Covid. Like, we're slightly more ready for this. This is going to be okay. But that gap is huge.

[Brian Barrett]

Yeah. You mentioned the playbook that they rent out, which I think is absolutely the right way to describe it. I also think of it as almost refrigerator magnet. It's like anytime something like this happens, it's just like, well, we'll grab Ivermectin and Covid and vaccine and we'll just jumble it up in some combination that sounds scary and bad. And then we'll sell people pills to make sure that they are fortified against whatever the thing is that's also a fake thing. But you still need to buy this thing to protect yourself. I don't understand how people can sort of live that way. On the, on the like people who are clearly huckstering this. Right. I think there's like a class of people who are opportunists who, you know, foment this in order to sell supplements.

[Leah Feiger]

People are selling like $325 contagion emergency kits.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Brian.

[Leah Feiger]

Like, this is. I'm sorry that 325. That's what's going to be what saves you. And there's something so upsetting about that too because like you have at the root of so many conspiracy theories is like unfortunately like very understandable. Like kernels if not of truth, but like of fear. Right. So like of people being like, I already am having health issues. The idea that like the government is not telling me the truth and not sharing that information. Yeah, maybe I should get this $300 kit that's gonna do it. Like I already, I already have, you know, asthma. Like I can't take anything else. And that's like so upsetting to watch happen because it's, it's like people every. Everyday folks who are just being taken in by this.

[Zoe Schiffer]

I mean, this is terrifying. The only reason I'm not having a full panic attack is because I talked to a random AI researcher who told me that I think the words were the R value of hantavirus is much lower and less scary than it was for Covid. I had no idea the words he was saying, but I thought, this man doesn't know anything about what he's talking about.

[Leah Feiger]

So many reasons I hate that R value is.

[Brian Barrett]

I. I believe it's the rate of transmission related to that.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Great. Well, whatever was a warm bath of I don't need to worry about this immediately washed over me and I haven't blinked since. But also, Wired's reporter Emily Mullen wrote a story this week that we are developing tests for the Andy strain of the hantavirus. So Leah, where are those at and how did those tests come to be exactly?

[Leah Feiger]

It's really, really cool reporting. Lots of love to public health officials here who absolutely just like race to make this happen. Kind of wild as passengers were returning like from this cruise that saw the hantavirus outbre of this Andes strain that like can pass human to human as opposed to like via this rodent transmission. There wasn't really a test yet to be able to like figure out the earliest stages of infection, like what, what this actually meant for people coming back. Which is very difficult if you have all of these passengers returning and you can't tell them for certain if they have it. But in just a couple of days the University of Nebraska Medical center, which is where in Nebraska people were getting, received a lab developed its own diagnostic test for the Andes virus ahead of receiving all of these passengers. Really, really cool. Peter Iwen, the director of the Nebraska Public Health Lab told Emily that they think that they're actually the only lab in the nation that has this test available at the moment. The fact that they spun it together so quickly is really just absolutely incredible. And specifically that it's able to detect very, very small quantities of the virus before people have full blown symptoms. And that's been part of the issue so far is that like all of a sudden people were just like, like it was done, it was just so much all at once and like to be able to isolate and figure out what that looks like and then also talk treatment afterwards. Huge, absolutely huge. And prevent the spread. Of course.

[Brian Barrett]

I do think people should read the story because I like the details are fascinating too. It was a real team effort. Like they, they didn't just do it in a vacuum. They reached out to someone at this lab who they knew had the right kind of whatever. I'm not a scientist, but they like it was a coordination among three or four different labs that each of which had an element that would be able to contribute to forming making this test happen. Really incredible. And then at the same time, Moderna, we all remember Moderna, they're already at work too on an MRNA vaccine. If we get to that point where we feel like we need to have vaccines. Assuming that RFK Jr does not put a stop to it because he thinks vaccines, and MRNA vaccines specifically are bad. So we're in a. I don't wanna say we're in a great place because any hantavirus feels like a bad amount of hantavirus, but it does feel like we're in a better place or at least the competence is starting to shine through in a way that's reassuring. That gets you to a six.

[Leah Feiger]

That gets me to a six. Even a 6.5. Yep, absolutely. I know.

[Brian Barrett]

That's higher. That's higher.

[Leah Feiger]

Oh, yeah, that's true. Well, somewhere in that range, we're gonna take a quick break. And when we're back, it's time for our Wired and Tired segment.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Stay with us.

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[Brian Barrett]

Comprehensive, witty, speculative.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Critical.

[Brian Barrett]

Insightful.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Profound.

[Brian Barrett]

Wide ranging.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Hopefully doesn't take itself too, too seriously.

[Brian Barrett]

I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, my colleagues

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

and I try to make sense of

[Brian Barrett]

what's happening in this chaotic world. I hope you'll join us for the New Yorker Radio Hour wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Thoughtful, exquisite. Just, you know, real. Okay, it's time for our Wired Tired segment. Whatever is new and cool is wired. Duh. And whatever passe thing we're over is tired. Are we ready? And by We. I mean, Brian, are you ready?

[Brian Barrett]

I am ready. So I'm gonna say my tired. You know, my. My kids, it's the end of the school year here, believe it or not, where I live. So I've got several sort of like graduation ceremonies, recognition ceremonies in which parents sit in bleachers or bleacher adjacent seating. And it's very uncomfortable. So I'm gonna say tired is sitting on bleachers for a long period of time. But Wired, Zoe, is butt pillows.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Oh, thank you.

[Brian Barrett]

And I say that because I wouldn't have thought of that before this week, but every fancy person at the Musk Altman trial has been bringing their own fancy butt pillow to sit in in court to make sure they're comfortable during the proceedings. We have a story on that at Wired. Thank goodness. But I've been inspired by these people, they are so wired, by giving their cushion a little cushion. That's my wired tired.

[Leah Feiger]

That's all I could have hoped for from yours, Brian, honestly. Fantastic.

[Brian Barrett]

It's true. It's 100% sincere.

[Zoe Schiffer]

Leah, what is yours?

[Leah Feiger]

Okay, stay with me on this. And I'm so excited. You're not gonna care about this at all, Zoe. But Brian, I think will.

[Brian Barrett]

Nice.

[Leah Feiger]

So my tired is. I think that there was a period of time when I was, like, slightly bored by, like, the theatrical offerings on Broadway. I was still going to a lot of plays, as you guys know. That is maybe my top three hobby. But I was a little bit like, what is. What is, like, the larger. What are we looking at here? Like, it was like. It was just like a lot of re. Recast. A lot of just like, very same, same. My Wired is this season of Broadway. Oh, my God, you guys. It is. It's camp. It's just like. It's absolutely camp. Let me take you through some of the shows that I am so obsessed with that I've seen recently. We are talking. We are talking. I just saw Titanique, which is the Celine Dion take on Titanic. Incredibly funny, incredibly queer. It's so, so good. Rocky Horror Picture show, like, need I say more? I saw that, like, three weeks in to its run and just, like, mind blown. So freaking good. I'm like, like, still melting down over it. Death of a Salesman, literally. Willy Loman is being played by Nathan Lane. I'm not sure, like, I. I was

[Brian Barrett]

gonna say, how is that camp? And I'm like, oh, yeah. It's like, this is.

[Leah Feiger]

This is just like, there's something incredibly. And like, I cried at that play. Right? Like, it can be. It can be like camp and irreverent while still just like, very, very moving. I'm. I'm obsessed with this current season of Broadway. It's all I can talk about.

[Brian Barrett]

You're right. You're right, Leah. I did love this.

[Leah Feiger]

Good.

[Brian Barrett]

Zoe. Was she right that you don't care at all?

[Zoe Schiffer]

I care. Medium I don't understand why I'm being picked as the person that doesn't like theater. I like it. I just don't live in New York. I never have, never will. That's our show for today. We'll link to all the stories we spoke about in the show. Notes Uncanny Valley is produced by Kaleidoscope Content. Adriana Tapia produced this episode. It was mixed by Amar Lal at Macrosound. It was fact checked by Daniel Roman Pram Bandy is our New York studio engineer. Mark Leyda is our San Francisco studio engineer. Kimberly Chua is our senior digital Production manager, Kate Osborne is our executive producer and Katie Drebin is WIRED's global editorial director.

[Brian Barrett]

Everybody has a hot take on the economy and whether you're curious about inflation, trade wars or the markets, what you need is reporting you can trust. Hi, I'm Kai Ryssdal, the host of Marketplace. Our award winning reporters talk to everybody from CEOs to farmers to help you understand how the economy takes shape in the real world. You'll be smarter every time you listen and these days that's priceless. Listen to Marketplace on your favorite podcast app.

[Zoe Schiffer]

From prx.