What’s the ‘Chicken Shop Date’ Creator’s Secret? Creative Control

Summary

Uncanny Valley | WIRED

Episode: What’s the ‘Chicken Shop Date’ Creator’s Secret? Creative Control

Date: May 5, 2026
Guests: Amelia de Mouldenburg (Chicken Shop Date), Host: Katie Drummond (WIRED Global Editorial Director)

---

Episode Overview

This episode of WIRED’s Uncanny Valley explores the creative and entrepreneurial journey of Amelia de Mouldenburg, creator of the acclaimed interview series Chicken Shop Date. Host Katie Drummond delves into how Amelia built the show, her distinctive interviewing style, her creative process, and the broader evolution of online creators into cultural mainstays. The conversation is peppered with insight about digital strategy, the shifting credibility of online content, and the vital importance of creative control.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Amelia’s Unconventional Approach to Interviews and Performance

• Red Carpet Mindset:

  • Amelia views red carpet coverage as a performance akin to being on stage, treating each appearance with meticulous preparation (04:11).
  • She highlights the intense research and custom question-writing for each nominee, usually preparing months in advance.

    "I spend a good few months... researching every single nominee, watching all of the movies… It's really important to prepare individual questions for each person because I think that's how you get a more interesting, nuanced interview." (04:07)

• Strategic Playfulness:

  • Her playful, deadpan interview style is intentional, serving both entertainment and rapport-building purposes.
  • She adapts her approach to the energy of each guest, aiming to create shareable, unexpected moments.

2. Navigating the Creator vs. Journalist Distinction

• Entertainment First:

  • While she holds a journalism degree, Amelia sees herself primarily as an entertainer, not a journalist.
  • She notes that the internet has blurred lines between “creator” and traditional talent, with more focus on vibe and moments than hard scoops.

    “I am in the business of making entertainment… I study journalism… but I always feel like I've been more drawn to making something within the entertainment space.” (06:46)

• Standing Out in a Saturated Space:

  • Amelia emphasizes strategic planning to differentiate herself in the crowded online interview space.
  • She crafts bespoke questions for each guest, referencing her viral Oscars interview with Ethan Hawke as an example of results from deep research (08:32).

3. Over-Preparation and Gender Dynamics in Media

• Preparation as Confidence:
  • Both Amelia and Katie discuss how over-preparing is tied to confidence and perhaps imposter syndrome, especially for women in media.

    “I like, I would say for this podcast, our producer had to, like, beat out of me the idea that I needed to spend, like an entire Friday researching someone before I interviewed them... I think there is something to that. This sense of, like, imposter syndrome and a lack of confidence…” (10:25)

4. Online Content and the Quest for Recognition

• Traditional vs. Online Media Acceptance:

  • Amelia observes that award shows are slow to recognize online content, despite the massive scale and influence of the creator economy.
  • She details her attempt to submit Chicken Shop Date for an Emmy, only to be stonewalled by technicalities—though she hopes for eligibility next year (12:52).

    “I tried to submit for the Emmys and then there was a clause because I didn't have [an] American production company... but I've, I've figured it out now.” (12:52)

• Generational Shifts:

  • Both guests point out that respect for online creators will only accelerate as younger generations, who grew up online, replace gatekeepers in traditional media.

    “I think that as people die, things will change.” (15:12, with characteristic wry humor)

5. Platform Choice, Monetization, and Creative Control

• Why YouTube?

  • Amelia has received lucrative offers to move her show to other platforms but refuses, valuing the accessibility and democratic nature of YouTube (19:40).

    “What I love about YouTube is that it's very democratic. You just have to have access to the Internet to watch it. And my audience really likes consuming it there.” (19:54)

• The Critical Importance of Ownership:

  • Amelia almost lost the show’s copyright early on in her career but trusted her instincts (and a good manager).

    “They wanted to buy it for... £500. Can you imagine if I signed that?” (23:21-23:28)

• Brand Deals Over Giving Up Rights:

  • Recognizing the value of brands going directly to digital creators, she turned down exploitative deals, secured early brand support, and now funds the show through ad revenue (24:04).

6. Algorithmic Realities and Social Strategy

• Algorithm as Gatekeeper:

  • Amelia accepts that “we are all at the mercy of the algorithm” (26:36) and that the clip-based, comedic format of her show incidentally aligns well with what performs online.

• Editing as Art:

  • Known for her ruthless editing (trimming 40-60 minutes to 8-10), Amelia’s goal is to present guests in their most charming, entertaining light (31:50).

    “I'm always trying to edit the person to be more charming than they actually are...the piece is often made in the edit.” (32:01–33:23)

7. Mentorship and Giving Back

• DIMS Inc. Academy:
  • Amelia has started a “summer school” to teach young people—especially those with less access—how to create online content from scratch.
  • The program offers industry mentorship, creative collaboration, and software/tool access, in partnership with Adobe (33:34–35:34).

8. Future Ambitions and Diversifying Identity

• Beyond the Persona:
  • Intent on not being pigeonholed by her deadpan on-screen persona, Amelia is developing scripted TV and film projects, including a romantic comedy based on her own journey (37:29–37:38).
  • She recently directed a music video and aims to do more behind the camera (37:54).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Research:

  “It definitely reminds me of when I was studying for my exams at school cramming.” — Amelia (04:20)

• On Creator Recognition:

  “I think that as people die, things will change.” — Amelia (15:13, on slow attitude shifts in media recognition)

• On Format and Platform Loyalty:

  “It's very difficult to like, change the behavior of an audience with a show that they already know.” — Amelia (19:54)

• On Retaining Copyright:

  “They wanted to buy it for... £500. Can you imagine if I signed that?” — Amelia (23:21–23:28)

• On Editing:

  “I'm always trying to edit the person to be more charming than they actually are...the piece is often made in the edit.” — Amelia (32:01; 33:23)

• On Looks and Facetune:

  “Looks maxing is out. But feeling good about yourself – being hot as a state of mind – is in.” — Amelia (43:21)

---

Important Segments & Timestamps

• Red Carpet Prep and Philosophy: 04:07–06:46
• Creator vs. Journalist Identity: 06:46–09:11
• Gender, Over-Preparation, and Confidence: 09:11–11:04
• Online vs. Traditional Content Recognition: 12:17–15:12
• Strategy and Creative Ownership: 19:40–24:22
• Algorithm & Social Strategy: 26:05–29:53
• Editing Secrets: 31:26–33:23
• DIMS Inc. Academy: 33:23–35:34
• Evolving Persona & Future Projects: 35:48–39:08
• WIRED’s “Control, Alt, Delete” Game: 40:04–43:21

---

Control, Alt, Delete Game (40:03–43:21)

• Control: Would love to control the technology of trains—being in the control room speaks to her inner control freak.
• Alt (Alter): Wishes kitchen appliances were easier—like the instant food machines in Spy Kids.
• Delete: Would get rid of the Facetune app, considering it damaging for self-image and broader culture.

  “Looks maxing is out. But feeling good about yourself – being hot as a state of mind – is in.” — Amelia (43:21)

---

Episode Tone & Style

The conversation is witty, candid, and insightful, reflecting Amelia’s deadpan humor and Katie’s engaged, empathetic interviewing. The episode balances critical discussion of digital culture with playful banter and career wisdom—appealing both to fans of creator content as well as industry observers.

---

For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This episode unpacks the journey, philosophy, and media savvy of a modern online creator who outsmarted early gatekeepers, shaped her own path, and is committed to helping others break into media on their own terms. You’ll learn about the power of preparation, the nuances of platform choice, the realities of algorithm-driven fame, and the mechanics of creative control—and hear why “being hot is a state of mind.”

---

Transcript

[Outshift Cisco Representative]

This show is supported by Outshift, Cisco's incubation engine. Today's AI agents operate in silos, limiting their true potential. We've been focused on building bigger, smarter models, but scaling up is just one approach. To reach superintelligence together, we need to do more, we need to scale out, and we actually have a blueprint from 70,000 years ago. Humans didn't just get smarter individually, they the cognitive revolution transformed society because we began sharing knowledge, goals and innovation. Agents are now at that same inflection point. They can connect, but they can't think together. That's why Outshift by Cisco is building the Internet of Cognition, transforming AI from isolated systems into orchestrated superintelligence. By creating an open, interoperable infrastructure, Outshift by Cisco is enabling agents and humans to share intent and context and reasoning. The cognitive evolution for agents is here. Explore the Internet of [e-mail] that's outshift.com

[NPR Shortwave Promoter]

NPR believes in your right to be curious about the big questions and the unexpected ones. That's what Shortwave, their science podcast, is all about. When we stop to ask questions, the world gets more interesting. Shortwave spends each episode answering one big one like why do we have nightmares? How does AI affect my energy bill? And how can trash be good for the environment? It's science, but not the kind you remember from school. It's playful and full of wonder. Science is for everyone. On shortwave, the hosts take your questions very seriously without taking themselves too seriously. They follow your curiosity wherever it leads so you can discover something new right alongside them. I personally really love the episode about where the moon came from. That's something I'd always wondered about, and now I don't have to wonder anymore. Short wave makes me curious and then gives me the answers. Follow NPR's Shortwave podcast and exercise your right to wonder.

[Katie Drummond]

From Wired, this is the big interview where we'll get to know the people beyond the headlines in conversations that explore the intersection of technology, power, and culture. I'm Katie Drummond, Wired's global editorial director. You may have seen our next guest, Amelia de Mouldenburg, on the red carpet at the Oscars in March.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Here at the Oscars. Red carpet. What does it smell like?

[Katie Drummond]

Sweat.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

And success.

[Katie Drummond]

And success.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

What's the vibe? What's the energy like in the room? There's like sizzling energy.

[NPR Shortwave Promoter]

It's surreal. It's hot right now.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

I feel like we should not have done that because it's already so hot in here.

[Katie Drummond]

I could start to feel the sweat Dripping from my butt cheek, down my leg. Thank God I'm wearing pants. Cause otherwise people would be like, is she.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Is she peeing herself right now?

[Katie Drummond]

I'm like, yeah. That clip is from the Academy Awards and Amelia's creative studio, Dimms, Inc. It was her third time on the Oscars red carpet. And that star turn comes on top of her wildly successful interview series that I first saw, admittedly as very short clips on TikTok Chicken Shop Date. If you haven't seen them yet, I don't know why, but you're in for a treat. Amelia sat down for dates with Conan o', Brien, Sabrina Carpenter, Andrew Garfield. The list goes on. And each episode takes place in, Yes, a chicken shop. Amelia now has more than 3.3 million subscribers on YouTube. And she joins me now. Amelia, welcome to the big interview.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Thank you for having me. Thank you for being here. Sorry, that clip you played, I was like, wow, that is real boots on the ground journalism right there.

[Katie Drummond]

How did it feel to hear yourself back talking about butt sweat and pee?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Well, it's interesting because that is definitely part of the genre of my interviews. However, there's so much more to them than that.

[Katie Drummond]

There is.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

There is. So that's obviously just like, one slice of it that's, I guess, a bit more playful. And, I mean, they're all kind of. It's all playful in a way. But, yeah, I guess I was cringing a bit.

[Katie Drummond]

I'm sorry I didn't pick that clip. So I'm gonna blame the producers. Always blame the producers when you have the opportunity. But how do you actually get ready for those interviews? I mean, this was your third time doing the Oscars red carpet, which is. And I've been a journalist for a very long time. Intimidating environment. How do you prep?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

I spend a good few months.

[Katie Drummond]

Months?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Yeah. Like, probably like two months. Obviously not every day. But, you know, I'm thinking about it for, like, two months running up to the Oscars, and I am researching every single nominee, watching all of the movies, and me and my sister and our other writing partner, I write with my sister Zoe. We prepare questions, individual questions for every nominee that the Academy would like us to interview. So it's mainly all of the acting categories and directors and kind of beyond. And, yeah, I think it's really important to prepare individual questions for each person because I think that's how you get a more interesting, nuanced interview from someone rather than asking a general question to everyone. And I think the general question thing was what audiences were getting maybe tired of. And I love thinking of questions for each person and thinking of ways in which you can speak about their films and their work in a way that is playful and unexpected, but also kind of shows the level of research that I try and do. I love watching celebrity interviews. I always have. And I've loved being a consumer of pop culture, like, since I was very young. So it's a fun job for me to do the prep, but it definitely reminds me of when I was studying for my exams at school cramming. And this year I had more time than ever. And so when I got to the carpet my third year doing it, I felt really confident, I felt really good. I also loved my outfit. And I think all of those things really do make a difference because, as you say, it's an intimidating environment. And when you're feeling good 100%, it affects your performance. And I do really feel like I'm performing when I go on a red carpet. It feels to me like a bit of a stage. And I kind of forget the cameras are there. And I very much feel like I'm playing to the audience.

[Katie Drummond]

How do you think about your role on that red carpet? And I'm curious about this in the context of the work that you do overall, this sort of creator journalism, I don't know if it's a debate. It's a. There's a distinction there that I think is becoming blurrier and blurrier. I don't have strongly held views about it. I mean, I talk to the Wired staff all the time, and I hope they don't mind me saying this on the podcast, but that they are so much more now talent than they used to be and that they need to be on camera, they need to be behind a microphone. Like, they need to be making that direct connection with their audience. Right. And sort of really taking like the quote unquote creator playbook and taking that seriously and not being dismissive of that. But for you, when you're on the red carpet or you're sitting down in a chicken shop, whatever it is, how do you, like, self identify?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

I feel like I am in the business of making entertainment. Yeah. And I think that is a distinction from. From journalism in a way. You know, I study journalism, I have a degree in journalism, but I always feel like I've been more drawn to making something within the entertainment space. And I think that a lot of creators that are like, working the red carpets now, I think that that's their approach too. It' necessarily that they're trying to get a scoop for Example, but they're trying to make something that is entertaining and, and it does like people really connect with those interviews and obviously some are stronger than others, like in any, any situation. But I think the first time I did the red carpet was maybe nearly five years ago now for the GQ man of the Year awards. And I remember at the time it being such an exciting moment because I don't think many like non traditional talent had taken those roles. And I think since then the space has become quite, I guess, oversaturated, but like, like how anything would. I guess it's always been important for me to make sure I stand out in a crowded space always. But yeah, I'm interested in creating a moment, something that people can connect to that kind of stands out online because you know, there's so much content now, sea of it. So you really do have to be able to make your mark. And it's actually something that I've always been quite successful at doing, so I feel. But that's just through the pre planning of it. Like I watched so many interviews with, with said talent that I meant to be interviewing to get a sense of their vibe, their energy, the type of personality that they are, and therefore what kind of questions they would respond well to. And I think it's through all of that that I'm able to like preempt the moment. You know, like for example, Ethan Hawke, my interview with him like went quite viral from the Oscars this year. And that was because I spent a lot of time understanding the way that he approaches interviews and he has this ability to like say something really poetic. And I don't think everyone kind of knows that about him. I think you do have to be like in a wormhole of, of his interviews to kind of know that if you just are a fan of his work, for example. And so I thought it would be interesting to ask him a more kind of philosophical or like question. Not deeply philosophical, but just something that would provoke that kind of answer in it. And it worked. So in a way I think that's my approach.

[Katie Drummond]

It's interesting because you certainly, I mean you bring the like the academic training of a journalist and certainly the obsessive need to prepare or over prepare before an assignment. You know what I mean?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Oh my God, I couldn't.

[Katie Drummond]

You sound like a bit of an obsessive person. And I say that as the highest compliment.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Well, I don't think I could go into anything that I do without preparing and sometimes I feel like maybe it's unnecessary to the level Because I think it comes from sometimes with me anyway, like, maybe a little bit of a lack of confidence in myself or something like that, that I feel the need to be so prepared for something, but at the same time, it just makes me feel comfortable because then I know I can just feel good about it. Even if it didn't go well, I can say, well, at least I did the best I could beforehand. Yeah. And then it's kind of out of your hands. But I've definitely been interviewed by people before who don't have any notes, you know, don't have anything, and it's just completely off the dome. And I've always been so impressed by that level of being able to honestly memorize. And maybe it is also a confidence thing, too.

[Katie Drummond]

Well, maybe they're. I don't know, maybe they're just winging it. Maybe they didn't memorize anything.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

I don't know. And obviously that. That can work sometimes and can be a disaster other times.

[Katie Drummond]

But, yeah, I mean, I, like, I would say for this podcast, our producer had to, like, beat out of me the idea that I needed to spend, like an entire Friday researching someone before I interviewed them. And she was like, you don't have time. You have to stop doing this. This is out of control. But it is, I think, not to make it about being a woman, but I think there is something to that. This sense of, like, imposter syndrome and a lack of confidence and that you need to over prepare to go in and do something that with all love and respect to the men in my life, that maybe a man could go in with 15 minutes of prep and just wing it.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

I agree.

[Katie Drummond]

I cannot do that.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

I agree. But are they getting a better interview? I don't know.

[Katie Drummond]

I don't. I don't know that they are, Emelia. I don't. I don't know that they are. I'm curious about the Oscars for another beat. And then I want to talk more about many, many things. But when we were getting ready for the show, not that I was getting ready too much. I didn't get ready that much because I'm not allowed anymore.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

No, you're not allowed. I'm not allowed to overpower your Friday. You were. You were off the clock. You were having drinks with the girls.

[Katie Drummond]

I wish that the Oscars is airing on YouTube for the first time in 2029, which, when I saw that, my first thought was, what's taking them so long? How is that possible that it's gonna take them?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

There's a Lot of admin involved.

[Katie Drummond]

Like three more years to put it on YouTube.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Yeah, there's a lot of red tape.

[Katie Drummond]

Put it on YouTube tomorrow, you guys. But still a sign of the times, the Oscars, we're getting there. We're getting on YouTube. What else? Would you like to see an award show like the Oscars do to kind of meet this moment? Right. You've talked about four or five years ago. It was ludicrous to think that there would be like a quote, non traditional person on the red carpet. Now it's all there is. But what else? Like, where are award shows like the Oscars but not exclusive to them, still sort of behind the times when it comes to the way people actually consume entertainment, the way they find content, for lack of a better term.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

That's a good question. I mean, I think there's still a long way to go in terms of awarding or taking seriously online content. Sure, yeah. I mean, this year with the Golden Globes, they had a podcast category Wild. Yeah. And I think that was a really interesting move and I think that there's a long way to go as well with like other award shows taking shows like Chicken Shop Date. Like, why can't we, why can't we win certain awards? Why can't. Well, Chicken Strip is not going to win an Oscars.

[Katie Drummond]

No, no, no. But what could you win that you couldn't like, that you couldn't submit yourself for now? Like, is it an Emmy?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

An Emmy? I tried to submit for the Emmys and then there was a clause because I didn't have American production company because it was a British production company. You have to. An American. But I've, I've figured it out now. Okay. So I'm hoping to be eligible next year for the Emmys, but still it's like in a specific category. Like, I don't even think it would be like within the main awards that they would be giving out. But you could still, you can still apply. I think it's like short form category. But yeah, I think that there's, there's so many incredible online series and again, podcasts or content that is what people are consuming now. And I think that these award shows and people could say, oh, it's just an award show, who cares? But actually people do care and there's so much out there that people do as humans like to be told what is good and what is not. And I think that it also, it kind of condenses the amount of things that you have to consume in a way. So I do think it's people really look to those awards and they are really important still. Yeah. So I think for sure, more categories within online content would be amazing. And with the Oscars specifically, I think, again, just like broadening out the types of. Of films and artists and creative people that can be eligible for awards, I think would be amazing.

[Katie Drummond]

Have you told them this?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

No, I haven't, but I will. You.

[Katie Drummond]

Well, maybe. Maybe you just did.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Yeah.

[Katie Drummond]

I. I am curious for your sort of point of view on this idea of like the. The online creator, right. Which is if you think about the size of the quote, unquote creator economy, right. Like, people making things on the Internet and putting them on platforms, it's like $250 billion a year. Right. Like, it's massive. And it is for many people, like, the only thing they watch, right. Is TikTok or YouTube or so on and so forth. People like you are celebrities to those many, many millions of people like that. It is a thing. And yet somehow I think from where I sit, at least, it still doesn't seem like it is received with the same level of respect and maybe like, deference or credibility as like Hollywood acting or something more traditional or conventional. Why do you think that is? And is that. Is that something you have experienced and how have you experienced that maybe change since 2014 when you launched the show?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Well, it's a great question. I think it's one of those things where it's like the changing of the guard. I think that it's. There's a lot of people in positions of power that they grew up watching, consuming television, and that is kind of the be all and end all of what they deem to be legitimate in terms of a successful career within entertainment. So I think that as people die, things will change. But more. More to that, I think since it's personally in my journey within my career, it's always been important to me to kind of bridge the gap between the online world and then more of the traditional media, because I've always seen the value in people taking traditional media seriously. It's been a real need of mine to. To make sure that I kind of straddle both in a way. So taking opportunities within traditional media when they seem beneficial, but then also making sure that I'm really like, planting myself on YouTube and on TikTok and doing all those things. I think you need to be super strategic about things and to understand that there are different audiences for both spheres and you can speak to both of them. And there's a way to speak to both of them. I mean, there's been different people, I guess, throughout kind of history of online culture that have kind of paved the way for like being taken more seriously from like people like Emma Chamberlain for example. I think that she's been someone that people look to who has really kind of crossed over and then Even people like Mr. Beast or people who get to that level of, of fame within Internet culture. I also think these people are all entrepreneurs and they all are business minded creators. And I think that having that aspect to their personality and their drive has really also made people in the public be more aware of them. But also with my show, for example, with Chicken Shop Day, I honestly see that as a, it's a show on YouTube. You know, I'm not vlogging, I'm not doing something that's kind of more native to, to the online space. I'm kind of doing something that traditional media has done for decades, but I am interpreting it to the YouTube audience. So in that sense I feel like because of the format aspect of what I do, it's been more easy to translate it to like a wider audience.

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting, this idea of sort of like transcending from online culture and sort of creator world into maybe more traditional or more sort of conventionally respected entertainment. And I think at some point that line has to go away, right? Because it's just like online culture and YouTube and TikTok, like that is at this point, I think conventional entertainment. Right. But maybe we are just waiting for some people to die. Like maybe that is just what's happening.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

I also think that I'm from a generation where like I grew up watching television and like appointment viewing like that. I'm, I'm 32 and I think obviously now like 20 year olds, they won't have that at all. Like they will only have Grown up watching TikTok, having a streamer. They can just watch whatever they want. So I do think it's like a generational shift, that I'm someone who still values the traditional space. But at the end of the day I also think that movies will stand the test of time. Like that is people are always going to want to watch movies. And watching a movie and making a movie is different to making a TikTok video. It just is different. And so it's just a different medium. And I don't think that the fact that these new social media platforms coming up means that they're going to take over that space necessarily. I just think that people need to understand that they are different platforms that are made for different types of content and the way that you consume it. Like you. I was having a friend the other day, and they were talking about their favorite podcast now being on Netflix, for example. They just said, I don't want to watch it on Netflix. And it's like, well, you just have to press a button different. And they're like, I'm not going to do it.

[Katie Drummond]

Where did they want to watch the podcast?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

On YouTube.

[Katie Drummond]

I see. Okay.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

And it's interesting. That's interesting. That.

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Like an audience. That pressing a different button is, like, such an effort that you really see the format living in a certain ecosystem. Yeah. And that is fascinating to me. And. And I have had conversations with streamers before about.

[Katie Drummond]

Well, this was actually a question. I'm curious.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

You.

[Katie Drummond]

The show has been running on YouTube now for what, 12 years?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Yeah.

[Katie Drummond]

Have you ever given any consideration to taking it off YouTube? Like, what. What would that potentially look like for you?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

I have had offers to take off YouTube.

[Katie Drummond]

I bet you have. For, like, much money.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Much money. And I've said no, because, again, I just believe and think that that is what will happen. The audience will be like, why is it on another platform?

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah, I don't want to press the button.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

I want to. And I think what I love about YouTube is that it's very democratic. You know, you just have to have access to the Internet to be able to watch it. And my audience really likes consuming it there. And I think it's very difficult to, like, change the behavior of an audience with a show that they already know. I would love. And I'm trying to work with streamers, but on separate projects that I feel like would work for the platform itself. You know, I'm developing a TV series and, like, for example, and I feel like people love watching TV series on. On streamers. Yeah. And I think that would make sense. And, you know, who knows, Maybe the podcasting will find an audience on streamers, but it might just take a few years.

[Katie Drummond]

People are going to have to really think about pressing that button.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Or maybe it will. Yeah. Or maybe it will just only work with. With new podcasts that you associate with the. Yeah, I honestly think it is maybe something to do with that.

[Katie Drummond]

I mean, how have you. You talked a lot about sort of creators as entrepreneurs and like a Mr. Beast, you yourself are very much entrepreneurial, and you've had to be. You've had to be entrepreneurial, you've had to be strategic. This is a big question. And I'm sort of sorry for asking it this way. But it's what's coming to mind. What have you had to learn about strategy since 2014 when you decided to launch this show? Okay, great. You've now built it into a real meaningful business for yourself. What have you had to learn along the way?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

I guess lots of things. I think the main thing that I've learned is how important it is and how thankful and happy I am that I own my own copyright that I own. Tell me about that.

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah. When did you make that decision? When did that come up?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Well, when I started the show. So the show started in a youth club and it started as a column in a youth run publication from when I was 17.

[Katie Drummond]

The cut.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

The Cut. Not the Cut, but the Cut. It was called the Cut. And then yeah, when I was at my first year of university I went to Martin studied fashion journalism. I thought, oh, this would be great if this was filmed because it's funny and awkward and. And if only I knew someone with a camera to help me, help me film it. And finally I met someone, started making them on YouTube. And it then got to a point after making maybe like five episodes where I just, I couldn't ask people for favors anymore. You know, everyone was doing it for free. I was a student. I was even persuading the shops to. The shops weren't even closing, they were open and we would have.

[Katie Drummond]

There were people like eating chicken around, you and I.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

And we'd have to pause, keep pausing intermittently like when people, people were ordering stuff because I didn't have enough like budget to. To shut the shop. I didn't even know that you could even do that. I just didn't know anything about production. So it got to a point where I honestly didn't have any means to, to make an episode anymore. And so I thought, okay, how am I going to do this? So I, I spoke to a record label and they were gonna help me do it and I would maybe have to do set amount of their artists on the show and then I was allowed to other ones but they wanted to buy the rights from me. And the deal was quite. Was really terrible actually. And luckily that's when I got a manager for the first time. They looked over the contract, said you cannot sign this. So thank you to them. And then I tried to get funding through a media company and they again were like, we, we want the copyright. And they wanted to buy it it for a ridiculous amount of money. Like much money. £500.

[Katie Drummond]

No.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Is what they offered. No. Yeah, to buy this can you imagine by the copyright? Yeah.

[Katie Drummond]

Can you imagine if I signed that?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

I know. And something just in me, I don't even know. I wasn't getting any really, other advice, like something in me just. I just knew, like, that is not. I cannot do that.

[Katie Drummond]

No.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

So I then ended up getting a brand deal because I also came up at the time when being an influencer was just beginning. So brands were understanding that they can go direct to the. The person, they can cut out the middleman, they can cut out the agency. They don't have to buy this big billboard. The billboard is now on someone's phone. Yeah. So I got a brand deal and the brand deal paid for me to be able to never think about funding it again.

[Katie Drummond]

More than £500?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

More than £500. Yeah. And not to say that, like, set me up for the rest of my life, but, I mean, it just meant that I could then make episodes. And then I was making money on the ad since then and it just, like, just became this returning investment. And now I fund the episodes with the money that I make from the Google AdSense.

[Katie Drummond]

We're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back.

[NPR Shortwave Promoter]

Hey, small business owners, let's talk about how Found can help you wrangle your finances once and for all. When was the last time you felt like you had your business finances totally under control? Every expense categorized, every receipt tracked, every invoice sent. Oh, and you were prepared for tax season. If the answer is never, you're not alone. And that's what found is for. Found eliminates the clutter by giving you one platform that handles it all. Banking, bookkeeping, invoices and taxes. No more. Paying for multiple subscriptions and dealing with clunky, outdated apps. Found is reimagining what business banking should be. By putting your bookkeeping, invoices and tax tools directly into your business checking account, they make it easy to regain control of your business finances so you can get back to doing what you love. Take back control of your business. Today, open a Found account for free at found.com that's f O-U-N-D.com found is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services are provided by lead bank member fdic. Join the hundreds of thousands who've already streamlined their finances with Found.

[New Yorker Radio Hour Host (David Remnick)]

This week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, Steve Kerr, one of the best coaches in the NBA and certainly one of the most outspoken, calling the president a buffoon.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

I kind of regret that, even though I felt it in my heart, because I'M representing a large group of people not only for our organization, but our fans, too.

[New Yorker Radio Hour Host (David Remnick)]

Steve Kerr joins us next time on the New Yorker Radio hour from wnyc. Listen, wherever you get your podcast,

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

What

[Katie Drummond]

have you had to learn or, like, what can you tell me about the YouTube of it?

[New Yorker Radio Hour Host (David Remnick)]

All?

[Katie Drummond]

Right. Like, the algorithm of it all. I think there's the YouTube piece of it, there's the TikTok piece of it. And there's always so much conversation and consternation around these algorithms and what they expose us to. And, you know, when TikTok was. Was acquired in the United States recently, like, put under US Ownership, there was all of this consternation around will the algorithm change and what will it surface

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

and what won't it?

[Katie Drummond]

How do you navigate, like, the. The whims of the algorithm? How has that shown up for you and your business?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

I. Another great question. We are all at the mercy of the algorithm.

[Katie Drummond]

We are, all of us, as creators and consumers.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

And consumers. Originally, I was just making videos for my friends, as in if they found this funny, then I was like, great, I'm gonna post it. So that was like my barometer of, like, whether I should upload something. I mean, I've always been wanted to make comedy, and I think that comedy always cuts through in a way. I think that's especially on the Internet, like, it's just the home of funny things. So I think when you're making comedy online, I think you're already kind of set up for success in a way, because it's just something that people like to consume. But I also think that the way, naturally, the way that our episodes have been made now, if I'm comparing them to podcasts, like, I actually hate when people come up to me on the street and they say, I love your podcast. I'm like, it's not a podcast.

[Katie Drummond]

Well, I can imagine you would hate

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

that because it's actually no offense to podcasts. Oh, it's totally fine. We love them. But it's interesting because I think that before I've always been making something that now people view as a video podcast. You know, before.

[Katie Drummond]

Do they really?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Yeah, before video podcasts were a thing.

[Katie Drummond]

Oh, I guess, because, hello, everyone's on video now.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Everything is videoed. And it's somewhat. Two people sat opposite each other, right?

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

So it's like, it kind of looks similar. And like you even saying that you first found out about Chicken shop date via TikTok. And if people are just looking at these clips, they honestly might think it is a Podcast, even a lot of people podcasts now. Take away the microphones. Anyway, just to say my point is that we were editing the show, always in clip format because of the B roll that we have that everyone really loves.

[Katie Drummond]

Right. You are a notoriously, like, ruthless editor.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Yes, I love the edit. My edits, the edit. Being in the edit is my favorite part of, of, of the process. So we, we have these clips that then we cut to the friar, we cut to the boss man. Like, we cut to these things. We also have a social media strategy from the beginning that I built. And then now I have my social media manager, Ashley, who like runs that for me. So she will think, okay, which clip are we going to lead with? And then like, how many are we going to post over the course of a week? And what additional content can we have? And so our videos have naturally kind of suited the algorithm by accident in a way because we were already doing clips. But I, I don't ever go into making something thinking, how can we feed the algorithm? I just think, how can we get an amazing interview? And going back to what I said with my. How I research something, how can I use what I know already from what I've consumed of this person and how can I create something that hasn't been seen before with. With them playing to their strengths? So that's kind of my way that I go into it. But obviously I, when I was starting the videos got, you know, hundreds of views and I would be like, oh, God, I just. I spent, I would say, probably seven years growing the show to. When it. To. Until it became known in America. And so that's like a long time.

[Katie Drummond]

It's a really long time to be

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

working on before you are then like, yeah, okay, this is the amount of eyeballs I've always thought it should get.

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

And now I'm there. But it took years. But I also was growing the show as all of these things we've been talking about are growing too. Like the media landscape changing, people being more aware of content, people consuming content, tick tock, being invented, like all of these different things. So I've just grown with the times.

[Katie Drummond]

Well, it's a very, very good show, but I guess you're right that you had very, very good times.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Yeah. And now everyone's doing it.

[Katie Drummond]

Everyone. Well, you're right, actually, everyone is doing it. And now everyone thinks that you have a podcast, when in fact, unfortunately, you, at least as of now, you do not. You have a very disarming Persona. I mean, your, your Persona on the show is off putting. Right? Like that's kind of by design, but you do disarm them and you get great material out of them. Like, why do you think you are able to disarm these celebrities to the, to the extent that you are? Is it the research? Is it something else?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

I. It's kind of shift changed in my mind as to like what it, what it's been. I think originally when I started it, it was because I just thought it was funnier to play this character that was sarcastic and kind of flipped between being like totally desperate to then being totally uninterested. And that kind of pairing is just ultimately funny and catches people off guard. And I think that it has just worked. But that was me playing up my natural personality at school. Like when I was at school, I was much more sarcastic and deadpan. And I definitely think that was a shield, you know, a shield to boys that were mean. And it worked. You know, I think boys at school sucked then. They didn't come near me to the point where then I was like, dammit. But I did actually want you to like me or be interested in me. But I've kind of, it's gone too far. But I think it was just like kind of like a self defense mechanism that, that just kind of ended up being funny.

[Katie Drummond]

But you combine that sort of your ability to disarm your guests and sort of that demeanor with this ruthless approach you take to editing. I mean, I think I read you take what like 40 minutes or an hour of material and you cut it down to eight or 10 minutes, is that right? Like that's a rigorous edit. Do you ever get it to a place where the guest on the other side of it is not happy with what you put together?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Not that I've heard of, but we don't give approvals. But no, I've. I've never had it that people have been upset with an edit because I'm always trying to edit the person to be more charming than they actually are.

[Katie Drummond]

Right, More charming, Funnier.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Yeah. Like I'm doing them a favor. Yeah, you are. Yeah. So, and, and I like that because that's what I want. I want people to watch the episodes and to fall in love with this person. Like it's a dating show. And yes, it can be awkward and that's. Awkwardness is funny, but that's also part of life and dating. And I, I think that's what people connect with. And I think this Persona that I, you know, had as a younger person and kind of, I'm Kind of kind of growing out of it. It's a point of difference that I think people connect to because it's not so usual. I definitely grew up watching a lot of very bubbly TV presenters that agreed with everything the person opposite was saying to them. And that's what I thought was okay, that that's one way of doing it. I'm not like that. I don't want to do it like that. So I just thought it would be funny to kind of flip it on its head and just be like, like, what if I disagreed with people? What if I like rolled my eyes at like this celebrity and brought them back down to earth? That's kind of what I think. But yeah, the edit is, is definitely my favorite part of the process. And there's so many things you can do within it. Like, you know, you can have this 40 minutes and you can like kind of change it like in a way. And that's the same with any kind of art form. Even if you're, if you're a journalist or if you're a filmmaker, director, you know, I think that the piece is often made in the edit.

[Katie Drummond]

You've been at this a long time, you've learned a lot, you have a lot of sort of knowledge and expertise at this point and you've actually created a summer school essentially DIMS Inc. Academy. Tell me how that actually works. What's the idea there?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Well, it all started I've always wanted to create a space for young people to learn more about the creative industries and be able to actually get their ideas out there and meet like minded people. Because that is the journey that I had with creating the show. I wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't go to this magazine club after school from when I was 16 and we were all allowed to pitch ideas. It was kind of probably like being at Conde Nast Publications, but everyone's miniature and the building isn't as high up. But yeah, so we were allowed to, you know, think, pitch ideas and write about whatever we wanted to. And it was this amazing place to meet people and I don't know if

[Katie Drummond]

that's, if that really is reflected in Conde Nas.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

With all due love and respect, let's take that away then we might keep that in, think of a different reference. But yeah, and I got so much out of that. And I've always wanted to create that kind of space myself and kind of use my. What I've learned to do that. And so last year we did a one week program for young People who wouldn't necessarily have access to the creative industries from a real diverse range of backgrounds. And they had one week to create a pilot of an online format that they came up with themselves. And I was so impressed. They had five days to go from ideating on the idea to then shooting, promoting it to then showcasing it and making a marketing plan around it. And it was just incredible. And this year, we're extending it to four weeks over summer.

[Katie Drummond]

Oh, wow.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

It's really important to me to also be able to provide the right support, but also the tools that these young people will need to actually create a piece of work. And we're partnering with Adobe this year. It's going to be incredible to be able to give those pieces of software to the young people for free during the Academy. And then with Premier Mobile, which is the premiere pro version on the mobile, that's just such an easy way for young people and anyone to create work when they're on the go. So thank you, Adobe, for helping me with this as well.

[Katie Drummond]

You talked a minute ago about maybe sort of growing out of that Persona a little bit that you had developed many years ago. I'm curious about what that means for you and your career and where you see yourself going next.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Well, I'm always been someone who's very interested in doing so many different things, and I think I've. Again, back to your point about strategy. I've always, always felt like it was really important for me to define myself beyond Chicken Shop Day and beyond that Persona and make sure that I'm seen, you know, doing other things and able to, like, talk freely like this. Like, this is actually who I am. I'm someone who's, who's more human being, a human being, like someone who's serious, takes their work seriously and, and thoughtful and all those things. And again, back to the idea of, like, storytelling. It just seems like such a corny word, but it's the only word I can think of that, that is something that has always been my interest. And with Chicken Shop Date, I always feel like I've been telling the story of a girl who wants to fall in love and is unlucky in love and, and keeps going on these dates and maybe one day they'll, it will be, she'll get a second date. And I, I think that's what has really kind of pushed me through, like, having the show for so long is because I've really understood that narrative and I've really loved developing other scripted projects that I've been doing for, like, Numerous years now. But, you know, those things take so long and it's been incredible to be able to like, work within the online space and be able to have an idea and not have to wait to be commissioned. I think that's probably the best thing about the democratization of the Internet is it's allowed for so many more ideas to become realities and bypass all of the gatekeepers. Now your only gatekeeper is the algorithm. So I'm developing a TV series with the, with the BBC, which has kind of been an ongoing project for many years that I'm so excited about. And then I have a movie in development as well with Amazon, MGM and Ryan Pictures. And that's kind of like my own rom com.

[Katie Drummond]

And you play the lead, right?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna be playing myself. It's like the Chicken Shop Date movie.

[Katie Drummond]

And do you find love at the end?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Well, you have to watch to find out.

[Katie Drummond]

I hope so.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

I hope so. I hope so too.

[Katie Drummond]

I hope so.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

I mean, it's a rom com, so

[Katie Drummond]

I mean, terrible rom com.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

I mean, if it's not happening in real life, we better make it so. Yeah. And then, you know, I directed a music video earlier this year and I loved that experience.

[Katie Drummond]

I'm sorry to be a 40 year old, but I am.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

What music video? It was for an amazing artist called Maisie Peters and I just loved the experience. And I obviously direct Chicken Shop Day and I always have, but it's very different when you are really turning your hand to directing something with a narrative. I just love the experience. So much of being part of a team, collaborating with different heads of department and understanding how many parts are involved in creating something. And I loved it. So I can't wait to direct more. I would love to do that. I have an idea for a short film I want to do, but yeah, a chicken shopping has taken up a lot of my time, but I've always tried to make sure I can do other creative pursuits alongside it. And obviously red carpet interviews have been a great thing for me to show that I can turn my hand to different things, but I just want to be able to make things that resonate with me that kind of come from some kind of. Of personal passion or story of a way to kind of represent myself. And I think that's kind of what I'm going to continue to do. And I think also, like, the Academy is something that takes up a lot of my time too, and it's something that I love, I'm really passionate about and I'm very Excited to kind of carry on building that. Who knows? Who knows what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna do it all.

[Katie Drummond]

Sounds like you're doing it sounds like you're doing enough.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Doing enough. It sounds like you're doing God for that.

[Katie Drummond]

All right, another quick break here and we'll be back with our favorite game. Comprehensive, witty, speculative, critical, insightful, profound, wide ranging. Hopefully doesn't take itself too, too seriously.

[New Yorker Radio Hour Host (David Remnick)]

I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, my colleagues and I try to make sense of what's happening in this chaotic world. I hope you'll join us for the New Yorker Radio Hour wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Thoughtful, exquisite, just, you know, real.

[Katie Drummond]

I would love to end with a

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

little game that we play at the

[Katie Drummond]

end of every episode. I'm sure you love, love games. You're gonna love this. It's called control, alt, delete. I want to know what's a piece of technology you would love to control? What's one you would love to alt? So alter or change? And what would you love to delete? What would you love to eliminate from planet Earth?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Technology I'd like to control. Yeah. Technology I'd like to control. There's so many technologies in the world.

[Katie Drummond]

Yes. It's very open ended. Someone once answered this question. It was a man. But he said, sorry, I feel like I'm coming off very anti. Men. I love men.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

We all love men.

[Katie Drummond]

We love men. He said the weather. And I was like, well, that's not technology.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

That's mother Nature.

[Katie Drummond]

I know, but it was a very God complex.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Oh, right. Control. Technology I'd like to control.

[Katie Drummond]

Probably.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Okay, there's two answers here. I mean, like, I always wanted to work on the tube.

[Katie Drummond]

Okay. And like, maybe in another life.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

In another life. Like, I'd always like to be in the control room of like the tubes. So I would say maybe like the technology of trains.

[Katie Drummond]

That sounds fun.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

I'd be able to control. I just think it would be so fun.

[Katie Drummond]

Like, stop, start, speed up. Yeah.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

And just like, there's always so much going on and I definitely am someone who is a control freak. And so like to be for your job, to be in a control room. Perfect.

[Katie Drummond]

What can be better?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

So maybe that. Okay, what was the next one?

[Katie Drummond]

Alt, alter or change?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Alter or change? Ultra or change? Technology. I'd like to alter the way some cooking appliances are made because I can't cook. And I would like them to be easier. Like, you know, in spy. I don't know if you Remember in Spy Kids, you just like, put something in, like a little packet in the microwave and then it's. It pops. Okay. And it creates the food.

[Katie Drummond]

Okay. There's a lot of alteration happening in that answer, but I will accept it.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Oh, well, what's the next one?

[Katie Drummond]

Delete.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Oh, okay, fine. I thought it was gonna be like, create your own invention. No, I mean, that's totally fine. I just did that. Well, Spy Kids did that. And I'm just like, owning it and then delete.

[Katie Drummond]

Yeah.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

AI. No, I'm joking.

[Katie Drummond]

Many people would like to delete it.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

There's so many positives to AI.

[Katie Drummond]

Actually, do you have one for me?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Isn't it curing cancer one day?

[Katie Drummond]

Maybe.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Yeah. There you go.

[Katie Drummond]

Depends who you ask.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

It depends who you ask. Okay, delete. Probably, Maybe like the Facetune app. Because I do think it's probably very damaging to people.

[Katie Drummond]

I think that's, in all seriousness, probably correct.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Like the idea that you.

[Katie Drummond]

And who is it helping, really? Who is it with?

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Me sometimes, sure. But I just think, like, even when I'm using it, I'm just thinking, God, like, what is going on? This is so depressing and dark and the fact that just so many people in general just are just so comfortable now. It's so normalized to like completely alter your face in this way. And then it obviously translates into actually getting real life surgery. So I would just say that looks maxing. Looks. Maxing is out. But feeling good about the way yourself being. Being hot as a state of mind.

[Katie Drummond]

Being hot as a state of mind is in. Facetune is out. Deleted. Goodbye, Amelia. This was so fun. Thank you so much.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

Thank you so much.

[Katie Drummond]

The big interview is a production of Wired and Kaleidoscope Content. This episode was produced by our showrunner, Ann Marie Fertoli, Kate Osborne and our executive producer. Music and mixing by Pran Bandy this episode was fact checked by Daniel Roman and I am of course your host, Katie Drummond, Wired's global editorial director. Check back here on Thursday for the latest episode of Uncanny Valley, where Wired's writers and editors add you to the Slack Channel.

[Kai Rysdal]

Everybody has a hot take on the economy and whether you're curious about inflation, trade wars or the markets, what you need is reporting you can trust. Hi, I'm Kai Rysdal, the host of Marketplace. Our award winning reporters talk to everybody from CEOs to farmers to help you understand how the economy takes shape in the real world. You'll be smarter every time you listen and these days that's priceless. Listen to Marketplace on your favorite podcast app.

[Amelia de Mouldenburg]

From prx.