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[00:00]
Sponsor Announcer
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[00:59]
uncanny when you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit@ Indeed.com podcast. That's Indeed.com pod terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed. Sponsored Jobs chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox Onobotulinum Toxin A prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It prevents, on average eight to nine headache days a month versus six to seven for placebo.
[01:48]
Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away. Has difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions including als, Lou Gehrig's disease, Myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome, and medications including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.
[02:25]
Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-844botox to learn more.
[02:31]
Brian Barrett
Leah, how did you like the Odyssey?
[02:34]
Leah Figar
I liked it.
[02:35]
Brian Barrett
Good.
[02:35]
Leah Figar
I really liked it. I thought it was fun. The dialogue was kind of, you know, whatever, beautiful shots of the Sicilian ocean. And I went with my husband, who loves to remind me that he studied Latin and Greek in high school and he actually liked it too. So frankly, 10 out of 10 from our family.
[02:57]
Sponsor Announcer
Good.
[02:57]
Brian Barrett
Yeah, I agree. I think everyone who is complaining about it needs to stop. Anyway, welcome to Wired's Uncanny Valley. I am Brian Barrett, Executive Editor.
[03:07]
Leah Figar
And I'm Leah Figar, Director of Politics and Science.
[03:10]
Brian Barrett
Today on the show, we're going to be talking about Mark Zuckerberg's manifesto about AI, which weighs in at over 6,500 words. We will be talking about it for less time than it would take to read it, so you're welcome for that. But most importantly, we'll discuss what it says about Meta's strategy as it continuously tries to catch up in the AI race.
[03:29]
Leah Figar
We'll also get into the rise of the 1am job interview as more people talk to a bot instead of a human for their first interview rounds, some job seekers are choosing to schedule theirs very late at night. We're going to look into that and how it's far from the only way that AI is changing job interviews as we know them.
[03:46]
Brian Barrett
And later in the show, we'll be joined by Wired's Andy Greenberg to dive into some of the most exciting research that came out of Black Hat and DEFCON two of the world's biggest cybersecurity events. So On Monday, Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg published a roughly 6,500 word essay on AI titled, quote, the future is for everyone. And doesn't that sound nice? It's the latest entry in the unfortunate genre of philosophical manifestos from tech CEOs. They've all got one. Sam Altman, Dario Amade. Everyone's got a manifesto these days.
[04:20]
Leah Figar
It's requirement. It's a requirement.
[04:23]
Brian Barrett
Some people have multiple manifestos. Even Zuckerberg's manifesto was an expansion of a Wall Street Journal op ed that he wrote. Anyway, they all want to lay out their views for the industry, for the world, why their companies are best positioned to tackle the future, why you shouldn't be scared of their products. Right? The core argument of Zuckerberg's manifesto is that concentrating AI power in a few institutions is dangerous and broad access to these models is what you need to diffuse that power. He didn't name specific names. Clearly taking jabs at OpenAI and Anthropic, which favor tighter control over their private models. At one point he writes, and I quote, historically hoping that an absolute power will benevolently provide for humanity if sufficiently enlightened has not led to safe or positive outcomes.
[05:08]
Leah Figar
I think it's a pretty philosophy 101 way to say, I just wasn't invited to play at the sandbox with the big kids. I mean, we can't divorce this from Meta's desperate attempt to stay relevant in the AI industry and race. And also we have to talk about the fact that, like, they laid off so many people on this team just a few months ago. It was so all over the place. So there's something like, very funny to me about Mark Zuckerberg being like, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's rein in OpenAI and anthropic. But I'm like, you wish that you were them. That feels very obvious.
[05:42]
Brian Barrett
I want to dig in on that a little bit. Leah too, in terms of the layoffs you mentioned and Meta's overall AI strategy, which has been so all over the place. They were all in for the longest time on open source open weight models because that was a way to sort of counteract and undercut people who were trying to more directly profit off of closed models. OpenAI, anthropic, that wasn't working. So they spent billions of dollars on this massive hiring spree to create this superintelligence lab that has not produced anything that has caught up to where the bigger labs are yet. So now he's saying, actually, maybe open is better, right? It's like when you can't win a race. And so you say, actually, we shouldn't be racing at all. This race is dumb. Why aren't we just all sharing everything? The other thing about this manifesto we haven't talked about yet is, and I hate that we call it like manifesto.
[06:31]
Producer/Host
I hate it.
[06:31]
Brian Barrett
I really like more than it's marketing what his marketing screed said. It's very. Hey, everybody, don't worry, AI is just fine and it's going to be great for you. Why is everybody so upset about all this stuff? Don't you trust us to make your life better? And this is coming from Meta, a company company that I just have to say, a week ago, ish not even was ordered by a court to pay $567 million for failing to do enough to protect kids mental health online. Why are we trusting Meta with anything, much less AI and its impacts on society?
[07:11]
Leah Figar
100%. I also just like, can't help but think about almost like last summer when the massive, like, hiring spree and competition was going on between OpenAI and Meta's super intelligence labs, the insane salaries and competition and what were you doing for. And again, it just sort of felt like we're just grabbing. We're grabbing on to, like, the hottest, flashiest thing, even if we don't have the systems backing it up right now. And especially, you know, Meta just announced a new open weight system called Muse Glimmer on Monday where users are able to download and alter the model as they wish. It's a lot of pivoting. I will be totally honest with you. I skimmed this manifesto. I read it. I for sure maybe read it in the background of a call, but I read it and it was a lot of nothing. It was a lot of nothing to me. But I know that Zoe had a lot of thoughts on it and she's not here with us today, but did want to share some things.
[08:07]
Producer/Host
Okay, so first off, I think it's worth asking why Mark Zuckerberg felt the need to write 6,500 words on his vision for AI superintelligence. He told reporter Alex Heath that it's because Meta is about to start releasing super smart models and he wants the world to basically, like, understand his philosophy before that happens. I personally think it's because AI is super unpopular right now and Meta has the opportunity, at least it believes it has the opportunity, to start turning the tide, I guess, and also to position itself as better than its rivals, who everyone currently seems to hate. The problem in my mind is that this manifesto doesn't seem to take AI all that seriously. Mark Zuckerberg uses the example of an agent creating personalized recipes so that he and his daughter can bake together. And I guess that sounds sweet. Although aside from the fact of, like, why do you need a personalized cookie recipe? It just seems to fundamentally miss the fact that these tools are dangerous, they're powerful, and we need AI leaders and tech leaders who take that danger really seriously.
[09:18]
Brian Barrett
If Zoe were here, and I'm sorry, snap, but I'm glad you shared that, I would also be celebrating with her the fact that however many months into this podcast Leah we got you to name drop a specific AI model gross and say what it does. Incredible how far you've come and how far we've dragged you into this muck. But no, I think her point is exactly right. It's this very breezy description of AI and how everybody's going to have a job and your job's going to be easy and you can have time with your daughter and make recipes. And it does ignore, almost like aggressively ignore, all the potential downsides that we've been seeing play out, especially over the last couple of weeks. We're in the summer of rogue AI agents, right? Like this is including one of metas and showing how unpredictable and out of control these things can be.
[10:06]
Leah Figar
I mean, from the Trump White House, which has historically been so anti AI regulation that its very own AI czar for the first year of the Trump presidency, David Sachs, was like, we're not regulating. To now where the White House has a slightly toothless, but still their policy of sorts, especially in response to all these national security threats, hacking threats, et cetera. Clearly, no one, no matter how AI celebratory or positive you are, can't even remotely pretend right now that you don't have to take these things seriously. And it's not just going to, like, solve childcare or what have you and teach your kid how to cook. Like, that's, that's just not going to be. That's not, that's not it anymore.
[10:49]
Brian Barrett
And if it were, would you even want it to be? Last note of this is that we did run this essay, whatever you want to call it, through Pangram, which is an AI detection tool that we, we trust, for the most part, human writtenly. I love that AI is good enough for recipes with his daughter, but not good enough to crank out a manifesto.
[11:07]
Leah Figar
I think that's beautiful.
[11:08]
Brian Barrett
Yeah. Okay. In other news. In other news, a delightful and maybe dystopian story from Wired senior writer Kate Taylor. She published a story on the strange pattern that has been increasingly emerging. So here's the deal. So many first rounds job interviews these days are done by AI. Like, you sit down in front of a screen and an AI interviewer asks you questions or prompts, or if it's not AI, it is a series of prompts that are like programmed into a software and you just sort of answer that way and not get screened, because you can do that literally anytime, because there's no human on the other end of it. People who are looking for jobs are increasingly scheduling those interviews late at night, as late as 1 in the morning. Sometimes. Kate found to get around sort of any family calendar conflicts, any work calendar conflicts. You know, the hassle of making up a dentist appointment when you're doing a job interview. Now people just sort of do it after the kids are in bed, sitting down in their living room talking to an AI agent who's going to determine their livelihood.
[12:15]
Leah Figar
I think you're going to be shocked by my take.
[12:17]
Brian Barrett
Okay, I'm ready.
[12:18]
Leah Figar
I like it.
[12:18]
Brian Barrett
Wow.
[12:20]
Leah Figar
I like that this is flexible.
[12:22]
Brian Barrett
Which part of it?
[12:23]
Leah Figar
Okay. Historically, I'm that person who was honestly really, really bad at doctor's appointments and dentist appointments. Not because I was not interested in my health, but because I just, like, couldn't figure out how to schedule it during my day. No, I did not want to go at noon. I'm busy. I have work. I have a life. The idea that, like, things like this, that perhaps you have to do job interview, doctor's appointment, like, whatever. This is the idea that you can do it on your schedule. To me, I'm like, that's positive. That is one positive thing that I see coming out of all of this. And I get it. Like, look, do I think that, like, automation for job interviews is really what I'm looking for right now? Absolutely not. I think that there's a lot of beautiful intricacies of the human experience and what people can bring to a workplace that cannot be, like, captured adequately by a chatbot. However, if that is where society is right now, let it happen.
[13:12]
Brian Barrett
I'm impressed. Or maybe not impressed. That might not be the right word, but I'm surprised by how many people are actually taking advantage of this. Kate talked to two different voice AI recruiting companies, one called Ribbon, one called Greenhouse. As many as a quarter 15 to 25% of job candidates schedule between 10pm and 2am I am not at my freshest at that moment, but I do think in some of these cases you get to do as many takes, I guess, as you want of your response. We don't like how you responded. You can do it again until you send it in. I think that works. That's how this works, at least for some of these systems. So that's maybe another benefit that you have there. The downside, of course, is that AI also does the first review of all of these interviews. And so you are getting scored on your enthusiasm. In some cases, you get an enthusiasm score for how you turn up on camera. You're getting graded against a rubric that the hiring company sets. And it's the odds that a human actually will look at your tape and judge your response themselves are increasingly low. And that's the part that I think really gets to people.
[14:12]
Leah Figar
No, that's horrible. You're absolutely right. The idea of, like, someone looking at my resume and being like, well, it didn't hit this one, two thing. You're like, well, we could have Talked about that that's difficult, that's less pleasant.
[14:23]
Brian Barrett
I know you like this in theory and I get that. Would you, if you were applying for a job and they said, okay, first round is with an AI interview, you just get some prompts and go from there. Would you take that as a sign to like ditch the job process or would you be like, all right, let's, let's roll with it?
[14:40]
Leah Figar
I think it really depends, right? This is mentioned by Kate Taylor in the article. The economy is really not great for job seeke. The latest jobs report was like absolutely horrific. US economy lost something like 23,000 jobs in July. That's a not small number. So yeah, if I'm in a situation where I need work, absolutely. Like, how do you say no to this now?
[15:01]
Brian Barrett
Leah, hear me out. We are almost at a point. In fact, we are probably already there. If you've got some savvy, which I know you do.
[15:06]
Leah Figar
Thanks, Brian.
[15:08]
Brian Barrett
It's true. People should know. You sign up for an AI job interview, instead of you sitting down, you set up a deep fake of yourself. You know, get Claude code or something. Get plug it into an AI agent or a chatbot and have it give perfect responses to every question that they throw your way. People already use AI to write their recovery letters.
[15:27]
Leah Figar
Robots interviewing robots.
[15:28]
Brian Barrett
Yeah, so it's robots interviewing all the robots all the way down and may the best robot win.
[15:39]
Leah Figar
So can we move on to talk about some cybersecurity news?
[15:44]
Brian Barrett
People might know that I used to be Wired security editor. So I love to talk about security news.
[15:51]
Leah Figar
Famously loves security. You heard it here first. Okay. Last week the Black Hat and DEFCON conferences took place in Las Vegas. These are some of the world's largest and most respected annual cybersecurity events. Every summer they bring together thousands of security professionals, hackers, government agencies and general hacking aficionados to share cutting edge security research and trends. Wired's Andy Greenberg followed the research being released in real time and is now joining to tell us all about it. Hey, Andy.
[16:20]
Andy Greenberg
Hey everyone. Glad to be here. I can attest that Brian was in fact my editor on the security beat.
[16:26]
Leah Figar
Was he good? You can tell me the truth.
[16:28]
Andy Greenberg
He was fantastic.
[16:29]
Brian Barrett
Look at that.
[16:29]
Andy Greenberg
He also wrote more than me, which
[16:30]
Brian Barrett
was embarrassing, but not nearly as well is the key.
[16:34]
Andy Greenberg
That's also debatable.
[16:37]
Leah Figar
I want to jump right in. As the one non security professional on this call. I have so many questions about the Black Hat conference every single year. I feel like I look at this in shock, in awe, in terror. In the AI era. I actually can't even really imagine what it was like as all of this is dropping at the same time. Maybe give it to me straight. What are the most dangerous hacking techniques that kind of came out of this conference? What were like the really big takeaways that people were talking about?
[17:07]
Andy Greenberg
Well, I do sometimes wonder what it's like to be a layperson reading all this news that comes out of these two Las Vegas conferences, Black Hat and defcon, every year.
[17:15]
Leah Figar
Scary. I can, I can tell you, science scary.
[17:17]
Andy Greenberg
Yeah, it creates a lot of very scary headlines. But these are generally, you know, what we call white hat hackers, or at least gray hat hackers, who are trying to demonstrate hacking techniques to get them fixed. And I think that's with AI too. That's an incredibly important thing to keep in mind. AI is an incredible bug hunting tool. In fact, like a exploit building tool, it can build hacking techniques that the humans can't or they can't. Humans maybe can't build as quickly or alone. But you know, the people doing this, for the most part, especially with the most powerful tools like Mythos, for instance, are doing it generally to find vulnerabilities and get them fixed. And that's happening at these conferences too, for the most part.
[17:59]
Brian Barrett
Andy, you are great at doing experiential security reporting, by which I mean you're great at letting security researchers hack your things and put you in compromising positions. One of my favorite stories out of these conferences that you did this year, you led a group of researchers, track you, eavesdrop on you, take pictures of you while you were wearing an adorable pink children's smartwatch. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
[18:26]
Andy Greenberg
Yes, that is all correct, but that wasn't honestly the plan for this story. So these two researchers who are presenting at Black Hat, Vengelis Stickis and Felipe Solferini, had found vulnerabilities in dozens, in fact, of GPS enabled devices, including smartwatches for kids. And they were planning to present this. And in fact, what they wanted to highlight was that really just three Chinese companies serve as the kind of backends for dozens and dozens of these cheap GPS gadgets. And all of them, all three of those Chinese platforms essentially had really serious security vulnerabilities. So, you know, a parent might buy like a safe kid smartwatch in Sweden and then some other parent in Spain might buy their save family watch, these different brands of smartwatch for kids, but all of them are hosted essentially on the same Alibaba cloud back end in mainland China and in Fact have the same security vulnerabilities that leave those kids, those devices, open to tracking. And to demonstrate this, the researchers just suggested that they ship me one of these watches. Did they buy it off Amazon and ship it to me? And I said, okay, and received it, set it up. And they immediately showed that they could track my every move and even listen in on my conversations through this watch and secretly take photos of me. So this, like, stalking experiment was not actually the initial idea of the story, but it really drove home the vulnerability of these cheap devices.
[19:57]
Leah Figar
And these researchers aren't usually just focused on things like this.
[20:01]
Sponsor Announcer
Right.
[20:01]
Leah Figar
At least one of them spent a really long time studying North Korean hackers. You had reported that they actually found these hackers have breached hundreds of networks over the years. Like these are people very entrenched in all of this.
[20:14]
Andy Greenberg
That's right. Venka the Stickis actually was presenting two talks at Black Hat, and the other one was about years of work that he's done, actually penetrating the infrastructure of North Korean hackers. And he was revealing for the first time that he had gotten into their servers and sort of, you know, hacked the hackers and then was able to find evidence of all of the hundreds of companies these North Korean hackers have themselves penetrated. I should say that the North Korean hackers were really focused on stealing cryptocurrency as they do. So some of the data that they accessed, you know, was probably not even that interesting to them. But they did, for instance, hack a hospital and get access to Covid data on practically every American. In another case, Vangelis found that they had hacked into a company that had criminal records of every American who has a criminal record. So, you know, these are extremely sensitive troves of data that North Koreans were getting access to just in the process of really kind of casting a very wide net, breaching tons of companies, mostly for financial gain.
[21:16]
Brian Barrett
We have a ton of great coverage from black hat and DEFCON, including some wild stuff about OpenAI and their rogue agents and how all of it happened sort of under their noses. Some other stories are Matt Burgess and Lily Hay Newman. But I want to talk Andy too about another story that happened just after Black Hat and defcon, more of an academic conference where you found some cybersecurity research, including how a tiny coin sized device could hack a Boeing 737 if you have just 60 seconds of access to the exterior of the plane.
[21:50]
Andy Greenberg
So, you know, there is actually a third conference in this series of Black Hat def con and then this other one, Usenix which is an academic conference, as you said. Most people kind of, I think, ignore this one, but some of the most interesting research is coming out of academia, in fact, and this was a group of researchers at UC San Diego and Oberlin College who spent more than 10 years trying to hack a plane. In fact, some of these researchers were the first to hack cars over the Internet in the early 2010s, and they moved on to planes and wanted to see if it's possible to hack a plane again, to find vulnerabilities, to warn the aviation industry to get ahead of somebody who would actually want to do this and cause harm. And, and ultimately, after years of work and tens of thousands of dollars of purchases of plane components, they found that they could in fact hack a Boeing 737. If they can get about 60 seconds of physical access to the exterior of the plane, they can open a hatch and put in this little device that they built that's about the size of a coin, plug it into this one specific port, and using that little device, they can change the navigation of the plane's autopilot, they can rewrite its flight plan, they can mess with the numbers that go into the calculation of its takeoff speed, like the plane's weights and the outside air temperature. Very scary stuff. But again, you know, with the goal of warning Boeing about this vulnerability before somebody can actually take advantage of it,
[23:17]
Leah Figar
a lot of conferences, lot of lessons learned, lot of fear for me personally. Were there any surprises for you? You're so mired in this world. What stayed with you here?
[23:29]
Andy Greenberg
Actually, Lily was the one who was most on the ground in Black Hat and at defcon, and who did the majority of the coverage of all of the advances in AI hacking, as you were talking about at the top of this. And what surprised me, both in her reporting and my own conversations at the conference, is not really like the power of AI, but some of its limitations in terms of finding vulnerabilities and hacking techniques. So Lilly wrote a great story about one researcher who was showing the ways in which actually AI has blind spots where it will hit a dead end without a human hacker assisting it. And in fact, humans and AI together is kind of this like, you know, that's the recipe that adds up to really novel hacking techniques. I heard myself from some really sophisticated hackers that AI, yes, is finding incredible new vulnerabilities in zero days in all kinds of systems, but that there are certain kinds of exploits that it cannot find still because it's trained on hackers prior work, like all AI it's trained on training data. If it's never seen a whole class of attack, it won't be able to carry that out itself. So I think the lesson that I took away from this kind of AI themed black ad and DEFCON is really that like a lot of artificial intelligence from the past applied to other things like chess or Go or whatever, the most powerful combination is humans and AI working together. And that really will start to create and hopefully patch vulnerabilities we've never seen before.
[25:03]
Brian Barrett
Yeah, let's get the patching in there
[25:05]
Andy Greenberg
first if possible, at least before something bad happens.
[25:10]
Brian Barrett
Yes, Andy, thank you so much for joining us today. Always a real treat to talk to you.
[25:16]
Andy Greenberg
Well, thank you both for talking about all this.
[25:19]
Brian Barrett
Coming up after the break, we'll share our Wired tired picks for the week. Stay with us.
[25:29]
Sponsor Announcer
This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses, set up required compatibility and availability varies. 18
[25:54]
when you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit@ Indeed.com podcast. That's Indeed.com podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox Onobotulinum Toxin a prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It Prevents on average 8 to 9 headache days a month versus 6 to 7 for placebo.
[26:41]
Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection, tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions including als, Lou Gehrig's disease, Myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome, and medications including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.
[27:18]
Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-844-BOTOX to learn more.
[27:29]
This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally, break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses, set up required compatibility and availability. Various 18
[27:54]
when you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit@ Indeed.com podcast. That's Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed. Sponsored Jobs Chronic Migraine is 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox Onobotulinum Toxin a prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It prevents on average eight to nine headache days a month versus six to seven for placebo.
[28:41]
Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions including als, Lou Gehrig's disease, Myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome and medications including botulinum toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.
[29:18]
Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-844botox to learn more.
[29:30]
Leah Figar
Okay, it is time for our Wired Tired segment. Whatever is new and cool is Wired. Whatever passe thing we're over is tired. Brian, what do you got?
[29:40]
Brian Barrett
We get my Wired is a number three extra value meal from McDonald's. It's the classic. You've got a quarter pound with cheese, medium fries, medium drink. I go with Coke Zero, but whatever you prefer that's Wired Tired is the amount of data that McDonald's collects from anyone who uses their app. Wired senior writer Reese Rogers this week had a really, really great story where he took advantage of the fact that in California he's got a legal right to access any data that a company stores about him. So he sent a request off to McDonald's and came back with a 515 page file in his inbox of everything that McDonald's knows about him.
[30:22]
Leah Figar
Unreal.
[30:24]
Brian Barrett
It's incredible. Some of the things that McDonald's tracks, it's not just what they so like, there's stuff that you would assume like how much he has spent and like what his order history is and even some location history stuff. And to be clear, Greece uses the McDonald's app, which is where a lot of this is coming from. So if you just like go into a store and pay with a credit card, it's going to look a lot different. But not only that, McDonald's has predictive things about Reece. They estimate the number of visits he'll take over the next six weeks. Apparently 2.16. They'll estimate his average order spend during the next six weeks, $13.49. They estimate his consumer attrition likelihood, how likely it is that he'll stop being a McDonald's customer at some point. Reese scored a zero on that. They've got him for life. And my favorite, Leah, my favorite part of this, as much as you can have a favorite part of, you know, fast food Panopticon. They rank the 10 McDonald's products most relevant to him. The top three in order are Large Diet Coke. Okay. Spicy snack wrap. Sure. And number three, the Grinch McShaker Fry. Large.
[31:32]
Leah Figar
That's so good.
[31:33]
Brian Barrett
So that's my tired.
[31:34]
Leah Figar
That's incredible, incredible stuff. If anyone listening to us has not read Reese's article yet, I highly recommend I would put it in the class of like old school blogs, AKA endless mozzarella cheese sticks at TGI Fridays. It's in that genre for me. It's excellent.
[31:53]
Brian Barrett
Yep, it's terrific. Now, Leah, what is your Wired tired this week?
[31:59]
Leah Figar
My wired is that it is currently humpback whale Season across many parts of the world. In French Polynesia, in Australia's Ningaloo Reef, there are humpback whales and they're young, making their way. I love to see it. The videos online are inspiring. And just with everything happening, it's nice to know that there's this return, there's this seasonal shift. I've been harboring these fears following a lot of our El Nino coverage, which has been excellent. Go check out the Science section on Wired.com of just what that would do to all of these migration patterns and, and to all to say that, like, they could still be very much affected in the next year. It has been very nice to see that not happening, at least right in this moment. That is my Wired.
[32:45]
Brian Barrett
It's a beautiful thing. It makes me terrified about what your tired is about to be.
[32:48]
Leah Figar
My tired is there was an article a couple of days ago that's been going around my community about how a number of Antarctic tour guides have been quitting their jobs after witnessing tourism's like, major damages to the continent, things getting left behind and the impact on penguin populations. Like, really sad. And I'm very obsessed with Antarctica, as you know. So this is ocean related, sea related. Everyone's coming in via ocean and it's been really interesting. I actually went to Antarctica a couple of years ago. It was an unbelievable experience. You had to do a crossing, you had to do the Drake Passage. Now tourists are getting flown in and out, which is an entirely new thing, and building runways across the continent. There's been like all of these studies about them disrupting penguin migrations and all sorts of other things, and it's been really sad to witness this. So then a couple days ago when it came out that all these guides were actually quitting their jobs over this, it's been kind of sobering of like, it's amazing that the world is so open and available. And it's also so scary that the natural world is so open and available. It is a sobering moment to go like, oh, God, what have we done to these beautiful places? Something I'm sitting with right now.
[33:56]
Brian Barrett
So any Uncanny Valley listeners who are lucky enough to go to Antarctica, be cool. Be cool, I think is our message.
[34:03]
Leah Figar
Be cool.
[34:04]
Brian Barrett
Just be cool.
[34:04]
Leah Figar
Be cool about it.
[34:05]
Brian Barrett
Just be cool.
[34:12]
Producer/Host
That's our show for today. We'll link to all the stories we spoke about in the show. Notes. Adriana Tapia produced this episode. It was mixed by Pran Vandy, who's also our New York studio engineer. Kate Osborne is our executive producer and Katie Drummond is Wired's global editorial Director.
[34:41]
Andy Greenberg
Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways
[34:45]
Brian Barrett
to tell you that Mint's offer of
[34:47]
Andy Greenberg
unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun
[34:52]
Brian Barrett
if we made $15 bills, but it
[34:54]
Andy Greenberg
turns out that's very illegal, so there
[34:58]
Brian Barrett
goes my biggest idea for the commercial.
[35:00]
Andy Greenberg
Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment
[35:03]
Producer/Host
of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for a 12 month plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes.
[35:10]
Sponsor Announcer
Me slow when network is busy. See terms.

Summary7 min read

Podcast Summary: Uncanny Valley | WIRED

Episode: Zuckerberg's AI Manifesto Explained; Inside Black Hat and DEF CON's Best Hacks
Date: August 13, 2026
Hosts: Brian Barrett, Leah Figar
Guest: Andy Greenberg

Overview

This episode of Uncanny Valley dives deep into the latest trends in AI with a particular focus on Mark Zuckerberg's new, sprawling AI manifesto and what it signals about Meta’s current strategies in the tech arms race. The podcast also examines how AI is reshaping hiring practices—particularly the odd phenomenon of job seekers doing AI-powered interviews at 1 a.m.—before pivoting to cutting-edge cybersecurity insights from this year’s Black Hat and DEF CON conferences. Wired’s Andy Greenberg joins to highlight the most jaw-dropping research and hacks revealed at these legendary hacker gatherings. The episode closes with the hosts’ eclectic “Wired/Tired” picks of the week.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Zuckerberg’s AI Manifesto: Ambition and Subtext

[03:10–11:08]

Manifesto Context:
Mark Zuckerberg released a 6,500-word essay titled The Future Is for Everyone outlining Meta’s vision for AI. The hosts discuss the prevalence of such “tech manifestos” among Silicon Valley leaders.
- Quote, Brian Barrett (04:22):
  “They all want to lay out their views for the industry, for the world, why their companies are best positioned to tackle the future, why you shouldn't be scared of their products.”
Core Arguments:
Zuckerberg argues that concentrated AI control is risky, advocating instead for broad access to models (implicitly critiquing OpenAI and Anthropic for tight control).
- Quote, Zuckerberg (cited, 05:07):
  “Historically hoping that an absolute power will benevolently provide for humanity if sufficiently enlightened has not led to safe or positive outcomes.”
Hosts’ Skepticism:
The manifesto is interpreted as Meta’s defensive response to lagging in the AI race and recent layoffs in their AI division.
- Quote, Leah Figar (05:07):
  “I just wasn’t invited to play at the sandbox with the big kids... You wish that you were them. That feels very obvious.”
Meta’s AI Maneuvering:
The company’s flip-flopping between open-source and closed strategies is scrutinized, with mention of their new open-weight model, Muse Glimmer.
Tone Critique:
The hosts, channeling WIRED’s Zoë Schiffer (via a recorded message), criticize Zuckerberg for glossing over AI’s risks and using shallow anecdotes (like an AI giving cookie recipes for his daughter).
- Quote, Zoë Schiffer (08:06):
  “It just seems to fundamentally miss the fact that these tools are dangerous, they’re powerful, and we need tech leaders who take that danger really seriously.”
Manifesto Authorship Check:
The essay was run through AI-detection tools and found to be mostly human-authored, which the hosts found “beautiful.”
- Quote, Brian Barrett (11:07):
  “I love that AI is good enough for recipes with his daughter, but not good enough to crank out a manifesto.”

2. The Rise of the 1 a.m. AI Job Interview

[11:08–15:38]

New Trend:
As AI-powered job interviews proliferate, candidates are increasingly scheduling first-round interviews with bots very late at night for flexibility.
- Quote, Brian Barrett (11:08):
  “So many first rounds job interviews these days are done by AI... People...are increasingly scheduling those interviews late at night, as late as 1 in the morning.”
Leah’s Surprising Approval:
Despite concerns over automation, Leah appreciates the increased flexibility for candidates.
- Quote, Leah Figar (12:19):
  “I like that this is flexible... The idea that you can do [an interview] on your schedule, to me, that’s positive.”
Downsides:
AI now reviews these interviews, scoring candidates on attributes like enthusiasm, with increasingly fewer human eyes on actual candidate responses. This raises concerns about fairness and authenticity.
- Quote, Brian Barrett (14:11):
  “The odds that a human actually will look at your tape...are increasingly low. And that’s the part that...really gets to people.”
AI vs AI:
Hosts joke about automating the candidate side entirely via deepfakes and having “robots interview robots.”
- Quote, Leah Figar (15:26):
  “Robots interviewing robots.”
- Quote, Brian Barrett (15:28):
  “Yeah, so it's robots interviewing all the robots all the way down and may the best robot win.”

3. Black Hat and DEF CON: Cybersecurity’s Cutting Edge

Guest: Andy Greenberg
[15:38–25:02]

Conference Overview:
Black Hat and DEF CON assemble thousands of white hat hackers, researchers, and government agencies annually; AI’s role in security and hacking was an especially hot topic this year.
Key Stories:
- Children’s Smartwatch Vulnerabilities:
  Andy relates how researchers demonstrated severe weaknesses in children’s GPS-enabled smartwatches—allowing real-time tracking, eavesdropping, and clandestine photography.
  - Quote, Andy Greenberg (18:26):
    “They immediately showed that they could track my every move and even listen in on my conversations through this watch and secretly take photos of me.”
- North Korean Hackers:
  Research revealed the extent of North Korean cyber-espionage, including access to vast troves of hospital and criminal record data in the US, mainly to steal cryptocurrency.
  - Quote, Andy Greenberg (20:13):
    “They had hacked into a company that had criminal records of every American who has a criminal record...these are extremely sensitive troves of data.”
- Hacking a Boeing 737:
  At an academic conference (Usenix), researchers showed that a coin-sized hacking device, if plugged into the outside of a Boeing 737 for just 60 seconds, could rewrite flight plans and manipulate navigation—prompting urgent security warnings.
  - Quote, Andy Greenberg (21:50):
    “Using that little device, they can change the navigation of the plane’s autopilot, they can rewrite its flight plan, they can mess with the numbers that go into the calculation of its takeoff speed... Very scary stuff.”
AI’s Cybersecurity Limits:
Despite powerful advances, AI still relies on human guidance and training data. True next-level hacking combines human expertise with AI’s capacity.
- Quote, Andy Greenberg (23:28):
  “The most powerful combination is humans and AI working together. And that really will start to create and hopefully patch vulnerabilities we’ve never seen before.”

4. Wired / Tired Picks of the Week

[29:29–34:05]

Brian’s Picks:
- Wired:
  The classic McDonald's Number 3 meal (Quarter Pounder with cheese, fries, drink).
- Tired:
  The staggering amount of user data McDonald’s app collects—one writer uncovered a 515-page data file about himself, including predictive order analytics.
  - Quote, Brian Barrett (30:23):
    “They estimate his consumer attrition likelihood... Reese scored a zero on that. They’ve got him for life.”
Leah’s Picks:
- Wired:
  Humpback whale season in places like French Polynesia and Ningaloo Reef; a hopeful note amidst ecological anxiety.
- Tired:
  Growing reports of Antarctic tour guides quitting due to witnessing the environmental damage of tourism, especially the impact on penguin populations and growing infrastructure on the continent.
  - Quote, Leah Figar (32:48):
    “It’s amazing that the world is so open and available. And it’s also so scary that the natural world is so open and available.”

Memorable Quotes

On Meta’s AI Strategy:
“It’s like when you can’t win a race. And so you say, actually, we shouldn’t be racing at all. This race is dumb. Why aren’t we just all sharing everything?”
— Brian Barrett (05:41)
On AI Job Interviews:
“I think that there’s a lot of beautiful intricacies of the human experience...that cannot be captured adequately by a chatbot. However, if that is where society is right now, let it happen.”
— Leah Figar (13:12)
On Security Conferences:
“These are generally, you know, what we call white hat hackers, or at least gray hat hackers, who are trying to demonstrate hacking techniques to get them fixed.”
— Andy Greenberg (17:17)
On the Future of AI in Hacking:
“The most powerful combination is humans and AI working together. And that really will start to create and hopefully patch vulnerabilities we’ve never seen before.”
— Andy Greenberg (23:28)
On Fast-Food Surveillance:
“Not only that, McDonald’s has predictive things about Reece. They estimate the number of visits he’ll take over the next six weeks. Apparently 2.16.”
— Brian Barrett (30:22)

Key Timestamps

[03:10] Zuckerberg’s AI Manifesto and Meta’s shifting AI strategy
[05:07] Critique of Meta’s and industry-wide AI power plays
[08:06] Zoë Schiffer’s criticism of the manifesto’s tone
[11:08] Late-night AI job interviews and their implications
[15:38] Introduction to Black Hat and DEF CON hacking highlights
[18:26] Vulnerabilities in children’s smartwatches
[20:13] North Korean hackers’ US data breaches
[21:50] Plane-hacking demonstration and implications
[23:28] The current limits and promise of AI in cybersecurity
[29:29] Wired/Tired picks: McDonald’s data mining, whales, and Antarctic woes

Conclusion

This episode of Uncanny Valley melds sharp reporting, skepticism, and wit to dissect Silicon Valley’s powerful AI narratives (and PR maneuvers), the algorithmic creep into everyday life (including your next job interview), and the state of play on the cybersecurity frontier. Whether you’re following digital power struggles, dreading robot recruiters, or just hungry for the latest hacker stories, the episode delivers insight with a healthy dose of humor and unease.

Loading summary

Transcript106 lines

[00:00]
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[00:59]
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Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away. Has difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions including als, Lou Gehrig's disease, Myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome, and medications including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.
[02:25]
Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-844botox to learn more.
[02:31]
Brian Barrett
Leah, how did you like the Odyssey?
[02:34]
Leah Figar
I liked it.
[02:35]
Brian Barrett
Good.
[02:35]
Leah Figar
I really liked it. I thought it was fun. The dialogue was kind of, you know, whatever, beautiful shots of the Sicilian ocean. And I went with my husband, who loves to remind me that he studied Latin and Greek in high school and he actually liked it too. So frankly, 10 out of 10 from our family.
[02:57]
Sponsor Announcer
Good.
[02:57]
Brian Barrett
Yeah, I agree. I think everyone who is complaining about it needs to stop. Anyway, welcome to Wired's Uncanny Valley. I am Brian Barrett, Executive Editor.
[03:07]
Leah Figar
And I'm Leah Figar, Director of Politics and Science.
[03:10]
Brian Barrett
Today on the show, we're going to be talking about Mark Zuckerberg's manifesto about AI, which weighs in at over 6,500 words. We will be talking about it for less time than it would take to read it, so you're welcome for that. But most importantly, we'll discuss what it says about Meta's strategy as it continuously tries to catch up in the AI race.
[03:29]
Leah Figar
We'll also get into the rise of the 1am job interview as more people talk to a bot instead of a human for their first interview rounds, some job seekers are choosing to schedule theirs very late at night. We're going to look into that and how it's far from the only way that AI is changing job interviews as we know them.
[03:46]
Brian Barrett
And later in the show, we'll be joined by Wired's Andy Greenberg to dive into some of the most exciting research that came out of Black Hat and DEFCON two of the world's biggest cybersecurity events. So On Monday, Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg published a roughly 6,500 word essay on AI titled, quote, the future is for everyone. And doesn't that sound nice? It's the latest entry in the unfortunate genre of philosophical manifestos from tech CEOs. They've all got one. Sam Altman, Dario Amade. Everyone's got a manifesto these days.
[04:20]
Leah Figar
It's requirement. It's a requirement.
[04:23]
Brian Barrett
Some people have multiple manifestos. Even Zuckerberg's manifesto was an expansion of a Wall Street Journal op ed that he wrote. Anyway, they all want to lay out their views for the industry, for the world, why their companies are best positioned to tackle the future, why you shouldn't be scared of their products. Right? The core argument of Zuckerberg's manifesto is that concentrating AI power in a few institutions is dangerous and broad access to these models is what you need to diffuse that power. He didn't name specific names. Clearly taking jabs at OpenAI and Anthropic, which favor tighter control over their private models. At one point he writes, and I quote, historically hoping that an absolute power will benevolently provide for humanity if sufficiently enlightened has not led to safe or positive outcomes.
[05:08]
Leah Figar
I think it's a pretty philosophy 101 way to say, I just wasn't invited to play at the sandbox with the big kids. I mean, we can't divorce this from Meta's desperate attempt to stay relevant in the AI industry and race. And also we have to talk about the fact that, like, they laid off so many people on this team just a few months ago. It was so all over the place. So there's something like, very funny to me about Mark Zuckerberg being like, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's rein in OpenAI and anthropic. But I'm like, you wish that you were them. That feels very obvious.
[05:42]
Brian Barrett
I want to dig in on that a little bit. Leah too, in terms of the layoffs you mentioned and Meta's overall AI strategy, which has been so all over the place. They were all in for the longest time on open source open weight models because that was a way to sort of counteract and undercut people who were trying to more directly profit off of closed models. OpenAI, anthropic, that wasn't working. So they spent billions of dollars on this massive hiring spree to create this superintelligence lab that has not produced anything that has caught up to where the bigger labs are yet. So now he's saying, actually, maybe open is better, right? It's like when you can't win a race. And so you say, actually, we shouldn't be racing at all. This race is dumb. Why aren't we just all sharing everything? The other thing about this manifesto we haven't talked about yet is, and I hate that we call it like manifesto.
[06:31]
Producer/Host
I hate it.
[06:31]
Brian Barrett
I really like more than it's marketing what his marketing screed said. It's very. Hey, everybody, don't worry, AI is just fine and it's going to be great for you. Why is everybody so upset about all this stuff? Don't you trust us to make your life better? And this is coming from Meta, a company company that I just have to say, a week ago, ish not even was ordered by a court to pay $567 million for failing to do enough to protect kids mental health online. Why are we trusting Meta with anything, much less AI and its impacts on society?
[07:11]
Leah Figar
100%. I also just like, can't help but think about almost like last summer when the massive, like, hiring spree and competition was going on between OpenAI and Meta's super intelligence labs, the insane salaries and competition and what were you doing for. And again, it just sort of felt like we're just grabbing. We're grabbing on to, like, the hottest, flashiest thing, even if we don't have the systems backing it up right now. And especially, you know, Meta just announced a new open weight system called Muse Glimmer on Monday where users are able to download and alter the model as they wish. It's a lot of pivoting. I will be totally honest with you. I skimmed this manifesto. I read it. I for sure maybe read it in the background of a call, but I read it and it was a lot of nothing. It was a lot of nothing to me. But I know that Zoe had a lot of thoughts on it and she's not here with us today, but did want to share some things.
[08:07]
Producer/Host
Okay, so first off, I think it's worth asking why Mark Zuckerberg felt the need to write 6,500 words on his vision for AI superintelligence. He told reporter Alex Heath that it's because Meta is about to start releasing super smart models and he wants the world to basically, like, understand his philosophy before that happens. I personally think it's because AI is super unpopular right now and Meta has the opportunity, at least it believes it has the opportunity, to start turning the tide, I guess, and also to position itself as better than its rivals, who everyone currently seems to hate. The problem in my mind is that this manifesto doesn't seem to take AI all that seriously. Mark Zuckerberg uses the example of an agent creating personalized recipes so that he and his daughter can bake together. And I guess that sounds sweet. Although aside from the fact of, like, why do you need a personalized cookie recipe? It just seems to fundamentally miss the fact that these tools are dangerous, they're powerful, and we need AI leaders and tech leaders who take that danger really seriously.
[09:18]
Brian Barrett
If Zoe were here, and I'm sorry, snap, but I'm glad you shared that, I would also be celebrating with her the fact that however many months into this podcast Leah we got you to name drop a specific AI model gross and say what it does. Incredible how far you've come and how far we've dragged you into this muck. But no, I think her point is exactly right. It's this very breezy description of AI and how everybody's going to have a job and your job's going to be easy and you can have time with your daughter and make recipes. And it does ignore, almost like aggressively ignore, all the potential downsides that we've been seeing play out, especially over the last couple of weeks. We're in the summer of rogue AI agents, right? Like this is including one of metas and showing how unpredictable and out of control these things can be.
[10:06]
Leah Figar
I mean, from the Trump White House, which has historically been so anti AI regulation that its very own AI czar for the first year of the Trump presidency, David Sachs, was like, we're not regulating. To now where the White House has a slightly toothless, but still their policy of sorts, especially in response to all these national security threats, hacking threats, et cetera. Clearly, no one, no matter how AI celebratory or positive you are, can't even remotely pretend right now that you don't have to take these things seriously. And it's not just going to, like, solve childcare or what have you and teach your kid how to cook. Like, that's, that's just not going to be. That's not, that's not it anymore.
[10:49]
Brian Barrett
And if it were, would you even want it to be? Last note of this is that we did run this essay, whatever you want to call it, through Pangram, which is an AI detection tool that we, we trust, for the most part, human writtenly. I love that AI is good enough for recipes with his daughter, but not good enough to crank out a manifesto.
[11:07]
Leah Figar
I think that's beautiful.
[11:08]
Brian Barrett
Yeah. Okay. In other news. In other news, a delightful and maybe dystopian story from Wired senior writer Kate Taylor. She published a story on the strange pattern that has been increasingly emerging. So here's the deal. So many first rounds job interviews these days are done by AI. Like, you sit down in front of a screen and an AI interviewer asks you questions or prompts, or if it's not AI, it is a series of prompts that are like programmed into a software and you just sort of answer that way and not get screened, because you can do that literally anytime, because there's no human on the other end of it. People who are looking for jobs are increasingly scheduling those interviews late at night, as late as 1 in the morning. Sometimes. Kate found to get around sort of any family calendar conflicts, any work calendar conflicts. You know, the hassle of making up a dentist appointment when you're doing a job interview. Now people just sort of do it after the kids are in bed, sitting down in their living room talking to an AI agent who's going to determine their livelihood.
[12:15]
Leah Figar
I think you're going to be shocked by my take.
[12:17]
Brian Barrett
Okay, I'm ready.
[12:18]
Leah Figar
I like it.
[12:18]
Brian Barrett
Wow.
[12:20]
Leah Figar
I like that this is flexible.
[12:22]
Brian Barrett
Which part of it?
[12:23]
Leah Figar
Okay. Historically, I'm that person who was honestly really, really bad at doctor's appointments and dentist appointments. Not because I was not interested in my health, but because I just, like, couldn't figure out how to schedule it during my day. No, I did not want to go at noon. I'm busy. I have work. I have a life. The idea that, like, things like this, that perhaps you have to do job interview, doctor's appointment, like, whatever. This is the idea that you can do it on your schedule. To me, I'm like, that's positive. That is one positive thing that I see coming out of all of this. And I get it. Like, look, do I think that, like, automation for job interviews is really what I'm looking for right now? Absolutely not. I think that there's a lot of beautiful intricacies of the human experience and what people can bring to a workplace that cannot be, like, captured adequately by a chatbot. However, if that is where society is right now, let it happen.
[13:12]
Brian Barrett
I'm impressed. Or maybe not impressed. That might not be the right word, but I'm surprised by how many people are actually taking advantage of this. Kate talked to two different voice AI recruiting companies, one called Ribbon, one called Greenhouse. As many as a quarter 15 to 25% of job candidates schedule between 10pm and 2am I am not at my freshest at that moment, but I do think in some of these cases you get to do as many takes, I guess, as you want of your response. We don't like how you responded. You can do it again until you send it in. I think that works. That's how this works, at least for some of these systems. So that's maybe another benefit that you have there. The downside, of course, is that AI also does the first review of all of these interviews. And so you are getting scored on your enthusiasm. In some cases, you get an enthusiasm score for how you turn up on camera. You're getting graded against a rubric that the hiring company sets. And it's the odds that a human actually will look at your tape and judge your response themselves are increasingly low. And that's the part that I think really gets to people.
[14:12]
Leah Figar
No, that's horrible. You're absolutely right. The idea of, like, someone looking at my resume and being like, well, it didn't hit this one, two thing. You're like, well, we could have Talked about that that's difficult, that's less pleasant.
[14:23]
Brian Barrett
I know you like this in theory and I get that. Would you, if you were applying for a job and they said, okay, first round is with an AI interview, you just get some prompts and go from there. Would you take that as a sign to like ditch the job process or would you be like, all right, let's, let's roll with it?
[14:40]
Leah Figar
I think it really depends, right? This is mentioned by Kate Taylor in the article. The economy is really not great for job seeke. The latest jobs report was like absolutely horrific. US economy lost something like 23,000 jobs in July. That's a not small number. So yeah, if I'm in a situation where I need work, absolutely. Like, how do you say no to this now?
[15:01]
Brian Barrett
Leah, hear me out. We are almost at a point. In fact, we are probably already there. If you've got some savvy, which I know you do.
[15:06]
Leah Figar
Thanks, Brian.
[15:08]
Brian Barrett
It's true. People should know. You sign up for an AI job interview, instead of you sitting down, you set up a deep fake of yourself. You know, get Claude code or something. Get plug it into an AI agent or a chatbot and have it give perfect responses to every question that they throw your way. People already use AI to write their recovery letters.
[15:27]
Leah Figar
Robots interviewing robots.
[15:28]
Brian Barrett
Yeah, so it's robots interviewing all the robots all the way down and may the best robot win.
[15:39]
Leah Figar
So can we move on to talk about some cybersecurity news?
[15:44]
Brian Barrett
People might know that I used to be Wired security editor. So I love to talk about security news.
[15:51]
Leah Figar
Famously loves security. You heard it here first. Okay. Last week the Black Hat and DEFCON conferences took place in Las Vegas. These are some of the world's largest and most respected annual cybersecurity events. Every summer they bring together thousands of security professionals, hackers, government agencies and general hacking aficionados to share cutting edge security research and trends. Wired's Andy Greenberg followed the research being released in real time and is now joining to tell us all about it. Hey, Andy.
[16:20]
Andy Greenberg
Hey everyone. Glad to be here. I can attest that Brian was in fact my editor on the security beat.
[16:26]
Leah Figar
Was he good? You can tell me the truth.
[16:28]
Andy Greenberg
He was fantastic.
[16:29]
Brian Barrett
Look at that.
[16:29]
Andy Greenberg
He also wrote more than me, which
[16:30]
Brian Barrett
was embarrassing, but not nearly as well is the key.
[16:34]
Andy Greenberg
That's also debatable.
[16:37]
Leah Figar
I want to jump right in. As the one non security professional on this call. I have so many questions about the Black Hat conference every single year. I feel like I look at this in shock, in awe, in terror. In the AI era. I actually can't even really imagine what it was like as all of this is dropping at the same time. Maybe give it to me straight. What are the most dangerous hacking techniques that kind of came out of this conference? What were like the really big takeaways that people were talking about?
[17:07]
Andy Greenberg
Well, I do sometimes wonder what it's like to be a layperson reading all this news that comes out of these two Las Vegas conferences, Black Hat and defcon, every year.
[17:15]
Leah Figar
Scary. I can, I can tell you, science scary.
[17:17]
Andy Greenberg
Yeah, it creates a lot of very scary headlines. But these are generally, you know, what we call white hat hackers, or at least gray hat hackers, who are trying to demonstrate hacking techniques to get them fixed. And I think that's with AI too. That's an incredibly important thing to keep in mind. AI is an incredible bug hunting tool. In fact, like a exploit building tool, it can build hacking techniques that the humans can't or they can't. Humans maybe can't build as quickly or alone. But you know, the people doing this, for the most part, especially with the most powerful tools like Mythos, for instance, are doing it generally to find vulnerabilities and get them fixed. And that's happening at these conferences too, for the most part.
[17:59]
Brian Barrett
Andy, you are great at doing experiential security reporting, by which I mean you're great at letting security researchers hack your things and put you in compromising positions. One of my favorite stories out of these conferences that you did this year, you led a group of researchers, track you, eavesdrop on you, take pictures of you while you were wearing an adorable pink children's smartwatch. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
[18:26]
Andy Greenberg
Yes, that is all correct, but that wasn't honestly the plan for this story. So these two researchers who are presenting at Black Hat, Vengelis Stickis and Felipe Solferini, had found vulnerabilities in dozens, in fact, of GPS enabled devices, including smartwatches for kids. And they were planning to present this. And in fact, what they wanted to highlight was that really just three Chinese companies serve as the kind of backends for dozens and dozens of these cheap GPS gadgets. And all of them, all three of those Chinese platforms essentially had really serious security vulnerabilities. So, you know, a parent might buy like a safe kid smartwatch in Sweden and then some other parent in Spain might buy their save family watch, these different brands of smartwatch for kids, but all of them are hosted essentially on the same Alibaba cloud back end in mainland China and in Fact have the same security vulnerabilities that leave those kids, those devices, open to tracking. And to demonstrate this, the researchers just suggested that they ship me one of these watches. Did they buy it off Amazon and ship it to me? And I said, okay, and received it, set it up. And they immediately showed that they could track my every move and even listen in on my conversations through this watch and secretly take photos of me. So this, like, stalking experiment was not actually the initial idea of the story, but it really drove home the vulnerability of these cheap devices.
[19:57]
Leah Figar
And these researchers aren't usually just focused on things like this.
[20:01]
Sponsor Announcer
Right.
[20:01]
Leah Figar
At least one of them spent a really long time studying North Korean hackers. You had reported that they actually found these hackers have breached hundreds of networks over the years. Like these are people very entrenched in all of this.
[20:14]
Andy Greenberg
That's right. Venka the Stickis actually was presenting two talks at Black Hat, and the other one was about years of work that he's done, actually penetrating the infrastructure of North Korean hackers. And he was revealing for the first time that he had gotten into their servers and sort of, you know, hacked the hackers and then was able to find evidence of all of the hundreds of companies these North Korean hackers have themselves penetrated. I should say that the North Korean hackers were really focused on stealing cryptocurrency as they do. So some of the data that they accessed, you know, was probably not even that interesting to them. But they did, for instance, hack a hospital and get access to Covid data on practically every American. In another case, Vangelis found that they had hacked into a company that had criminal records of every American who has a criminal record. So, you know, these are extremely sensitive troves of data that North Koreans were getting access to just in the process of really kind of casting a very wide net, breaching tons of companies, mostly for financial gain.
[21:16]
Brian Barrett
We have a ton of great coverage from black hat and DEFCON, including some wild stuff about OpenAI and their rogue agents and how all of it happened sort of under their noses. Some other stories are Matt Burgess and Lily Hay Newman. But I want to talk Andy too about another story that happened just after Black Hat and defcon, more of an academic conference where you found some cybersecurity research, including how a tiny coin sized device could hack a Boeing 737 if you have just 60 seconds of access to the exterior of the plane.
[21:50]
Andy Greenberg
So, you know, there is actually a third conference in this series of Black Hat def con and then this other one, Usenix which is an academic conference, as you said. Most people kind of, I think, ignore this one, but some of the most interesting research is coming out of academia, in fact, and this was a group of researchers at UC San Diego and Oberlin College who spent more than 10 years trying to hack a plane. In fact, some of these researchers were the first to hack cars over the Internet in the early 2010s, and they moved on to planes and wanted to see if it's possible to hack a plane again, to find vulnerabilities, to warn the aviation industry to get ahead of somebody who would actually want to do this and cause harm. And, and ultimately, after years of work and tens of thousands of dollars of purchases of plane components, they found that they could in fact hack a Boeing 737. If they can get about 60 seconds of physical access to the exterior of the plane, they can open a hatch and put in this little device that they built that's about the size of a coin, plug it into this one specific port, and using that little device, they can change the navigation of the plane's autopilot, they can rewrite its flight plan, they can mess with the numbers that go into the calculation of its takeoff speed, like the plane's weights and the outside air temperature. Very scary stuff. But again, you know, with the goal of warning Boeing about this vulnerability before somebody can actually take advantage of it,
[23:17]
Leah Figar
a lot of conferences, lot of lessons learned, lot of fear for me personally. Were there any surprises for you? You're so mired in this world. What stayed with you here?
[23:29]
Andy Greenberg
Actually, Lily was the one who was most on the ground in Black Hat and at defcon, and who did the majority of the coverage of all of the advances in AI hacking, as you were talking about at the top of this. And what surprised me, both in her reporting and my own conversations at the conference, is not really like the power of AI, but some of its limitations in terms of finding vulnerabilities and hacking techniques. So Lilly wrote a great story about one researcher who was showing the ways in which actually AI has blind spots where it will hit a dead end without a human hacker assisting it. And in fact, humans and AI together is kind of this like, you know, that's the recipe that adds up to really novel hacking techniques. I heard myself from some really sophisticated hackers that AI, yes, is finding incredible new vulnerabilities in zero days in all kinds of systems, but that there are certain kinds of exploits that it cannot find still because it's trained on hackers prior work, like all AI it's trained on training data. If it's never seen a whole class of attack, it won't be able to carry that out itself. So I think the lesson that I took away from this kind of AI themed black ad and DEFCON is really that like a lot of artificial intelligence from the past applied to other things like chess or Go or whatever, the most powerful combination is humans and AI working together. And that really will start to create and hopefully patch vulnerabilities we've never seen before.
[25:03]
Brian Barrett
Yeah, let's get the patching in there
[25:05]
Andy Greenberg
first if possible, at least before something bad happens.
[25:10]
Brian Barrett
Yes, Andy, thank you so much for joining us today. Always a real treat to talk to you.
[25:16]
Andy Greenberg
Well, thank you both for talking about all this.
[25:19]
Brian Barrett
Coming up after the break, we'll share our Wired tired picks for the week. Stay with us.
[25:29]
Sponsor Announcer
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[27:29]
This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally, break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses, set up required compatibility and availability. Various 18
[27:54]
when you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit@ Indeed.com podcast. That's Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed. Sponsored Jobs Chronic Migraine is 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox Onobotulinum Toxin a prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It prevents on average eight to nine headache days a month versus six to seven for placebo.
[28:41]
Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions including als, Lou Gehrig's disease, Myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome and medications including botulinum toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.
[29:18]
Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-844botox to learn more.
[29:30]
Leah Figar
Okay, it is time for our Wired Tired segment. Whatever is new and cool is Wired. Whatever passe thing we're over is tired. Brian, what do you got?
[29:40]
Brian Barrett
We get my Wired is a number three extra value meal from McDonald's. It's the classic. You've got a quarter pound with cheese, medium fries, medium drink. I go with Coke Zero, but whatever you prefer that's Wired Tired is the amount of data that McDonald's collects from anyone who uses their app. Wired senior writer Reese Rogers this week had a really, really great story where he took advantage of the fact that in California he's got a legal right to access any data that a company stores about him. So he sent a request off to McDonald's and came back with a 515 page file in his inbox of everything that McDonald's knows about him.
[30:22]
Leah Figar
Unreal.
[30:24]
Brian Barrett
It's incredible. Some of the things that McDonald's tracks, it's not just what they so like, there's stuff that you would assume like how much he has spent and like what his order history is and even some location history stuff. And to be clear, Greece uses the McDonald's app, which is where a lot of this is coming from. So if you just like go into a store and pay with a credit card, it's going to look a lot different. But not only that, McDonald's has predictive things about Reece. They estimate the number of visits he'll take over the next six weeks. Apparently 2.16. They'll estimate his average order spend during the next six weeks, $13.49. They estimate his consumer attrition likelihood, how likely it is that he'll stop being a McDonald's customer at some point. Reese scored a zero on that. They've got him for life. And my favorite, Leah, my favorite part of this, as much as you can have a favorite part of, you know, fast food Panopticon. They rank the 10 McDonald's products most relevant to him. The top three in order are Large Diet Coke. Okay. Spicy snack wrap. Sure. And number three, the Grinch McShaker Fry. Large.
[31:32]
Leah Figar
That's so good.
[31:33]
Brian Barrett
So that's my tired.
[31:34]
Leah Figar
That's incredible, incredible stuff. If anyone listening to us has not read Reese's article yet, I highly recommend I would put it in the class of like old school blogs, AKA endless mozzarella cheese sticks at TGI Fridays. It's in that genre for me. It's excellent.
[31:53]
Brian Barrett
Yep, it's terrific. Now, Leah, what is your Wired tired this week?
[31:59]
Leah Figar
My wired is that it is currently humpback whale Season across many parts of the world. In French Polynesia, in Australia's Ningaloo Reef, there are humpback whales and they're young, making their way. I love to see it. The videos online are inspiring. And just with everything happening, it's nice to know that there's this return, there's this seasonal shift. I've been harboring these fears following a lot of our El Nino coverage, which has been excellent. Go check out the Science section on Wired.com of just what that would do to all of these migration patterns and, and to all to say that, like, they could still be very much affected in the next year. It has been very nice to see that not happening, at least right in this moment. That is my Wired.
[32:45]
Brian Barrett
It's a beautiful thing. It makes me terrified about what your tired is about to be.
[32:48]
Leah Figar
My tired is there was an article a couple of days ago that's been going around my community about how a number of Antarctic tour guides have been quitting their jobs after witnessing tourism's like, major damages to the continent, things getting left behind and the impact on penguin populations. Like, really sad. And I'm very obsessed with Antarctica, as you know. So this is ocean related, sea related. Everyone's coming in via ocean and it's been really interesting. I actually went to Antarctica a couple of years ago. It was an unbelievable experience. You had to do a crossing, you had to do the Drake Passage. Now tourists are getting flown in and out, which is an entirely new thing, and building runways across the continent. There's been like all of these studies about them disrupting penguin migrations and all sorts of other things, and it's been really sad to witness this. So then a couple days ago when it came out that all these guides were actually quitting their jobs over this, it's been kind of sobering of like, it's amazing that the world is so open and available. And it's also so scary that the natural world is so open and available. It is a sobering moment to go like, oh, God, what have we done to these beautiful places? Something I'm sitting with right now.
[33:56]
Brian Barrett
So any Uncanny Valley listeners who are lucky enough to go to Antarctica, be cool. Be cool, I think is our message.
[34:03]
Leah Figar
Be cool.
[34:04]
Brian Barrett
Just be cool.
[34:04]
Leah Figar
Be cool about it.
[34:05]
Brian Barrett
Just be cool.
[34:12]
Producer/Host
That's our show for today. We'll link to all the stories we spoke about in the show. Notes. Adriana Tapia produced this episode. It was mixed by Pran Vandy, who's also our New York studio engineer. Kate Osborne is our executive producer and Katie Drummond is Wired's global editorial Director.
[34:41]
Andy Greenberg
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Brian Barrett
to tell you that Mint's offer of
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Andy Greenberg
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Brian Barrett
if we made $15 bills, but it
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Andy Greenberg
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Brian Barrett
goes my biggest idea for the commercial.
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Andy Greenberg
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Producer/Host
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[35:10]
Sponsor Announcer
Me slow when network is busy. See terms.