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- [00:00]
A
Let me start with, like, a story Jimmy Buffett told us. And we were fortunate enough to have an amazing lunch with him before he passed away. And for us, it was an opportunity to ask, like, an amazing musician about how he got so deeply involved in, like, the business side of his empire, which was, like, Margaritaville. And at the time, you know, he was towards the end of his life, and he was like, I'm building retirement communities that are, like, for my fans. So if you're like, 80 years old, but you don't want to. You want to. You don't want to go to some shitty retirement home. You want to go to the Margaritaville Experience Retirement Home. Like, I'm always serving my fans and always thinking about, like, businesses that are extensions of who I am. And so, you know, with venture, the more that we spoke to people, whether they're on the investing side or founder side or operating side, the more we felt comfortable about, like, a lot of the things that made people great, you know, in those spaces were things that were inherently things that made us successful in music.
- [00:49]
B
Alex, I am incredibly excited to be here with you today. I've been looking forward to this, and I know you're really busy, and I. You're juggling two whole businesses, which I'm excited to talk to you about. So thank you for making time for this.
- [00:58]
A
Yeah, this is stoked. I'm a big, big. And I was saying earlier, I've listened to literally every episode except for the last one, yet means a lot.
- [01:05]
B
I want to start with music, and I love music. I'm obviously, like, mega amateur about it, but I've been a huge fan of your music for a long time, and I always think it's really interesting to learn about the creation of songs. I love watching some of my favorite artists talk on YouTube about how songs came together. And so I want to just go through a couple of my favorite songs that you're doing, just hear about.
- [01:26]
A
We just did a photo shoot yesterday with this amazing creative director, Aidan, and he shot so many of, like, the creative campaigns around, like, all of these artists that, you know, I'm a huge fan of and, you know, fashion stuff. And it's so funny talking to him because he gives you this, like. They give you, like, this unfiltered perspective where you're like, wow, that photo turned out really good. And you're like, there was a zebra on set. You know what I mean? And the zebra almost killed Travis Scott. And then you're like, whoa, like, you should start a show that just talks about this stuff.
- [01:53]
B
Well, it's been so foreign to people. I mean, like, because, you know, you hear a song that's like just like a premium song, and you're just like, how the hell does this happen? Like, goes into it. And for most people, you just don't even understand what the process is.
- [02:04]
A
And I don't think there's like a single song in existence that doesn't have, like, an insane story. Even if it starts out in one day and it's done in one day, there's like eight months that, you know, precede it that are like.
- [02:17]
B
Which actually makes you wonder, like, on that point, before we go into songs, like, can you create a great song formulaically or does it, like, does it need a story?
- [02:24]
A
I don't know if it needs, like a story all the time. Sometimes. Like, like, lately, Drew and I have just making been songs. We're just like, I love this. This just feels good. I don't, like, I'm not thinking about, you know, the narrative of the song so much or the context. It's just like, I love these lyrics. I love what. How they feel to me. But it's not like, rooted in some, like, personal story necessarily. But I do think, like, the creative process is not ever formulaic, you know, like, the songs never start in the same place or the same way. I think there's like, creative things you can keep in mind, like how you go into a session and the best ways that you feel like you can get to some level of creativity. But like, I know we talked about this before at some. Some point, but, like, you know, doing the Chris Martin song, like, I remember him coming in and he was literally, like, telling us about this. Yeah, somebody's like this. And he was telling us about, you know, his creative process. And he was literally just kind of like, they're just sent down like from above. And we're like. I remember sitting there being like, what is this dude talking about? Like, we're like, we just. No, it doesn't. We, like, we spend time in the studio and we like, get the songs done. And then now, like, you know, whatever, five years later, we're like, he was totally right.
- [03:33]
B
I love Chris Martin. I mean, I think. I think. I think Chris Martin, I think he's like a real artist.
- [03:36]
A
Yeah.
- [03:37]
B
Coldplay is obviously like this. On some level. It's like this mass produced, like, for everybody thing. But he's a real artist.
- [03:44]
A
No, I think they're one of the greatest bands ever. You know, obviously getting to know him and the band and understanding, like, how they operate and work. I mean, it's like nothing short of, you know, like, pure, you know, magic and the respect they have. And, you know, the music obviously kind of speaks for itself, but, like, there's so many things that go into consideration when Chris and the band, like, move forward with the song.
- [04:07]
B
I went to a Coldplay concert recently, like, a couple months ago, and I hadn't been to one since I was, like, 17, you know, like, in high school in St. Louis. And I, like, it was awesome then, and it was, like, freaking awesome now.
- [04:18]
A
Yeah.
- [04:18]
B
And I was just like, you know, the whole place is vibing, dude.
- [04:21]
A
It's insane.
- [04:21]
B
Your. Your song comes on, you know, something just like, this gets played there.
- [04:24]
A
Yeah.
- [04:24]
B
Steven's going nuts. I don't know if you've been to a Coldplay concert while you've seen this happen. Yeah. And you're just like, this is cool.
- [04:30]
A
It's so cool. And I'm always like, chris, why can't we go on stage? Yeah, we would love to be up there.
- [04:35]
B
Why can't you go up there?
- [04:35]
A
But I don't know. I mean, I feel like it's always. We've. I think he's offered in the past, and, like, we had our own show somewhere else and stuff. And I think now he's just like, we're just gonna do it without you guys.
- [04:44]
B
He's like, we're good at it.
- [04:44]
A
Yeah, we're good. Which is totally fine. And, like, I love when, you know, they're on tour. I get videos, like, every day from somebody, you know, being like, here's your song being played. And it's just like, that's the coolest thing. It's like, hey, I'm sleeping, and someone else is doing the work. It's a great. That's why collaborations are awesome.
- [04:59]
B
So how did that song happen?
- [05:00]
A
Okay, so there's, like, a few things. Parts to it. So, you know, we've been fans of Coldplay forever. I think most electronic artists would say that, like, a Coldplay collaboration is, like, top three artists they would want to work with for so many reasons, because their music kind of lends itself to this electronic energy. Uh, his vocals are obviously just incredible, and the band's just iconic. And so, you know, they were always on our, like, you know, they ever want to get in the studio, we're so down. And they were, like, not down, you know, down, I think, for most of the time. And then our manager had reached out, and I think they were like, yeah, we'll float it to Chris or something. But then I think before show, one day, they were like, listening to Closer backstage. And Chris, I don't know, or the band was like, this is good, you know, this is interesting. Like, I would get. I'm down to get in the studio. I don't think they realized we had already asked. And so, like, last, you know, literally get a call from their manager, Dave. I'm not sure if he still works with them. And it was just like, Chris is going to be in, you know, LA next Tuesday or something. Like, wants to get in the studio, the guy's down. And we were like, I will drop. Just. You will find it. Antarctica. That's what it takes to do this. Went to the studio, I think it's called Woodshed in Malibu, which is a beautiful studio, Way nicer than any studio we've ever worked in. You know, got there at like 3pm or something like that. And I think we sat there for, like, two hours alone with his, like, audio engineer. But we were. And we're just kind of like, waiting. We're like, I don't even want to touch anything. What do we do? Should we start working on our own stuff? Should we, like, get ahead of this song? And then he just walks in and it's like, you know, there's only a few people on the planet, I feel like, would, like, have that gravity when they walk in. And he just, like, comes in, like a tornado of energy and. And just was like, hey, guys, you know, what are you working on? Never break up. This is how so, you know. And you're just like, hold Mike.
- [06:38]
B
Wow.
- [06:39]
A
Yeah, this is insane. And funny enough, like, we sat there probably for like four hours, you know, trying different things out, kind of like false starts. I think that's like, a big part of the creative front.
- [06:48]
B
Is it three of you, basically, or.
- [06:49]
A
Yeah, it's three of us and his sound engineer, who's like. I think being with him, Bill. He's been with him forever. Shout out to Bill.
- [06:54]
B
Probably amazing.
- [06:55]
A
Yeah, he's a great guy. And he just like. I think again, it's like sometimes being the studio is like having a presence without, like, interrupting anything. And Bill is great at that. And. And, you know, we're just like, throwing chords out and lyrics out and different little ideas and nothing's really sticking. You know, it's like we kind of like get started on a melody and it's like, ah, you know, like, let's move. And then eventually he's like, I gotta go put my kids to sleep. Pick Em. You know, and we're like, that's it. You know what I mean? You're like, we're done here. Like, he's not gonna come back, and that sucks. You know, that was our shot at a Coldplay song. And so he leaves. Leaves for, like, three hours. And. But he's told us he would come back, and we're just kind of like, is he gonna come back?
- [07:33]
B
He's not out there.
- [07:34]
A
And we were going through, like, stuff. We're like, we gotta find something or do something that, like, when he comes back. And we found these, like, chords that became something just like this. And we were like, this feels interesting in the context of, like, what a Coldplay Chainsmoker song might sound like. Yeah. And he finally comes back.
- [07:49]
B
Hopefully this segment right now, we'll play that just like.
- [07:53]
A
It's just a piano. Like, the. And it's so good. It's. It. I mean, it's. It was, like, not complex by any stretch. And Chris comes back and he's like. You kind of feel like he's also like, we gotta get something. You know what I mean? And we play on these chords, and he's like, that's good. I like that. He just was like, give me a mic. Literally, like, grabs a mic and dances around what, like, would be the size of this backyard. And he's dance.
- [08:14]
B
You guys are just together. He's dancing.
- [08:16]
A
We're sitting there. Like, almost like the energy is like, don't move. You know what I mean? Like. Like, it's like, we move. We're going to disturb what's happening right now. And he literally, like, lays down, like, what is probably, like, 80% of the core of the song.
- [08:28]
B
And the lyrics come and just naturally.
- [08:30]
A
Literally, he's just, like, you know, stumbling, like, you know, over each lyric, and then just, like, progressively it's just pouring out of him and probably in, like, an hour. And he. And. And we're just like, holy shit.
- [08:42]
B
Wow.
- [08:43]
A
We have a Coldplay song. And we were all, like, so jacked up.
- [08:47]
B
Could you have given him that beat before you had met him, or did you need that session with him to get that sort of, like, you know, that progression?
- [08:56]
A
I think we needed that session. I know there's plenty of collaborations that happen, you know, over email and digitally. And I don't think that's like, you can't not have success that way. But I think, like, you know, he wanted to get to know who we were. We wanted to get to know who he was. I mean, for us, just getting in the studio with him and being a part of that was, like, one of my life's greatest moments. And I think, like, it was important to, like, understand what he wanted to, like, sing about, like, what thematically, like, stuff was speaking to him, you know, like. And so, you know, we could have sent him 40 beats, but, like, would he actually listen to them? Would he, like, have the. Had the intention and focus as he went through them? And I think, like, the energy in the room had, like, built up over the course of this day where there was, like, pressure, but, like, also this, like, expectation where we were just like, we're going to get. You know, it's like, kind of, like, willing it into existence. So, you know, I think we always try to get in the rooms with people, but, like, you also can get in the rooms of people and recognize quickly that it's like, this is not meant to be. So it's scary in that way.
- [09:56]
B
Yeah. You mentioned Closer during that, which is another really great collaboration. How'd that one happen?
- [10:01]
A
That one's a really crazy one. So we were in tour in Illinois on our Friend Zone tour, which was, like, one of our first bus tours ever.
- [10:10]
B
Yeah, this is when, like, 20.
- [10:12]
A
This is probably, like, 2015 or something like that. And on this tour, there's this great artist who's still around, Louis the Child. And after every show, we had set up, like, a really shitty production room in the back of our tour bus. So we'd be, like, kind of drunk and tipsy or whatever, and we'd like, oh, you know, after the show, everyone would, like, pile into the bus and kind of, like, blast music and dance. And in the back, people were always like. We'd be, like, writing songs, producing things, and we hadn't really, like, Lucille Child was on, like, three or four shows with us, and we were big fans of theirs, and we were like, let's, you know, let's get in the back and, like, work on something. And Drew had a pair, you know, like, essentially, like, this song had been, like, floating around in his head for, like, two or three years. He had these chords that his hands, you know, as he would say, like, always just landed on the piano. And I think any piano player says that, like, you kind of like, there's just, like, certain chords your hands just, like, gravitate toward when you sit down, and they were the closer chords. And he kind of had this, like, loose idea of lyrically of a song, but, like, didn't really have functioning to have, like, any idea of how to, like, build it. Out into like the full track that, you know, it is today. And so, you know, in this back of this bus on like, you know, at like 2:00am, Lisa Child and all of us are just kind of like jamming. And they came up with like a lot of like some of the electronic line because it was much more like. I don't say acoustic, but like ballady at this point in time. And. And they were really good at kind of this like, I don't know, like, bouncy electro style. And like a bunch of the song, like, I would say, like half the song kind of came out in the back of that bus and we were all like, this is cool. Like, I really like this, but like, tipsy. It's late. You're just kind of like, cool. I don't know. And then the next day, I think we were in Utah or something. We're like, let's play that thing from last night. And there's like a bunch of random friends from the area on the bus and they're just like, what the fuck is that song? You know, And. And we're like, oh, you like to like, play it again? Yeah. And we like played it like 25.
- [12:01]
B
Times in the same format. You didn't change it at all from the Tipsy Night?
- [12:04]
A
Yeah, really didn't change it from the. From the night before. And we were just like, oh, it's actually good, huh? You know, like. Like we like this. But I didn't like, it didn't scream things to me. And the other thing that it's worth mentioning is shout to Sean Frank. He's another great DG producer that has helped us some countless songs. We didn't. Drew wasn't. Had never sung anything up until that point in time.
- [12:23]
B
Yeah.
- [12:24]
A
And we didn't have any singers on tour with us, so he was just like, I'll just sing it as like a scratch demo and hopefully, you know, we'll find someone else to replace me. And so when we were playing it for people, it was like Drew singing and they were like, damn, you don't like, sound pretty good, you know, like in the least in the tonally in the world of the song. And it was just wild because Sean like. To Drew and I, you know, shout out to Sean. He was just like, I can make you sound good. Like, I know you're not a singer, but, like, I have like enough experience in like, Pro Tools and auto tune and all these things where I can make you sound amazing. And he did. And like, they. I remember sitting there like, for Like a, you know, few shows in the back of us where you just cut every line over and over and over and over and over again. And it like, till it started to really like, glow and it was just a wild experience. I remember we sent it to our manager and a few people and they were like, it was weird because you send stuff to people and you don't know what their reaction is going to be. And our manager was like, cool, you know, and we were like, what? Like, this song's amazing. The song, like, the story just goes on forever. Because, like, then it was about. There's so many feature issues and things.
- [13:26]
B
I'm curious what the. I mean, this is kind of a funny question, but, like, what the impact of like drinking or drugs can have on creativity. I feel like in like tech circles a lot of the world, though, there's lately been this real push towards no drinking, no drugs. Like a very sanitized physiology.
- [13:45]
A
Totally.
- [13:46]
B
Which I'm all for.
- [13:46]
A
Yeah.
- [13:47]
B
I love going to bed early.
- [13:48]
A
Yeah.
- [13:48]
B
I love feeling good. I just also, of course, know that a lot of creative people, I think both actually in tech, in music, in other fields, like, I do think that like, alcohol and drugs play some role for a lot of people.
- [13:59]
A
100%. I mean, I think it's like, you know, can obviously loosen your inhibitions and kind of like lead you down a path of coming up with ideas or doing things that you like. Him singing.
- [14:08]
B
Yeah.
- [14:08]
A
Might have like, been a result of like having a few beers that night where he was like, fuck it, I'll do it. You know what I mean? Like, I don't care if anyone's around me thinking that, like, my voice sucks, I'm just gonna do it. I think there's like a double edged sword. I mean, I totally agree with you. I think, like, I mean, you know, Drew's like the epitome of health now. I think, like, we've both been very conscious over a career of like, maybe we need to tone this down a little bit. We've never. I've, like, I've actually never. My fun fact is I've never done coke ever in my life, which surprises a lot of people. We're in Vegas a lot. We played, you know, sometimes like, you know, four or five weeks of shows in a row. Drugs and alcohol are a big part of like, music culture historically. Yeah. And. And I think that, you know, there's a obvious reason why, you know, you're dancing, you're having fun, you're partying. Those, you know, the associations of that.
- [14:52]
B
I mean, part of art even. Like I think a lot of like writers.
- [14:55]
A
Totally. I mean it's kind of this like tortured self thing that like, you know, it's like cool to smoke a cigarette look cool, you know, like people smoking cigarettes look cooler for some reason. I don't know why, but it's like definitely gonna give you cancer. And there's something dangerous and badass about that, like the self reverence. But you know, I mean we notice with ourselves is that like in the studio the same way that it can like enable you to have a little bit. Take a little bit more risk or step outside your comfort zone, it also becomes like a dependency where you think like, oh shit, I can't write unless I'm write anything great. Unless I'm tipsy or drunk or having a drink or something like that.
- [15:31]
B
Yeah.
- [15:31]
A
And that's like definitely a slippery slope. And I think that goes for like anyone across anything. You could make that case for like, you know, marathon runners. You know, it's like unless I run 20 miles today, I'm going to be in a terrible mood, you know. And I think, you know, finding that balance is really, really important and something that we've definitely thought about. I mean, you know, the idea of writing music during the day used to be like hell no. You know what I mean? And like we write at night. That's when it's a vibe and it's cool and you can kind of like cut loose. And now we're just like. No, I like the focus of the daytime and, and coming here and having like the intention of just being like we're making music no matter what.
- [16:05]
B
It's like writing music like caffeinated. Like I always think that like, you know, like my second cup of coffee.
- [16:10]
A
Yeah.
- [16:10]
B
I have like a few hours where I'm just like my brain is at its absolute peak.
- [16:14]
A
Totally.
- [16:14]
B
It's productive peak. It's not creative peak, but it's productive peak. But I do wonder if you get to a place even in creative endeavors where you probably could translate that caffeinated morning buzz into. Yeah, into music.
- [16:25]
A
No, totally. I mean, I think, you know, you have to come in with energy and inspire. But I think like anything it's like so much of the importance is how you start. Like I can tell like almost right away when we're going to have like a productive day versus a day where you're just like. We're just like hitting walls and just nothing feels inspiring, you know. And I think it's really tough as you get older like when we started making music, like, really no one, like, cared about us. Like, no one bothered us. Checked in. No one was like, hey, I need your eyes on this for 15 minutes. Or, you know, this thing's happening over here that needs your attention. And so, like, it was very much just like, we were in the zone, and no one really could take us out of it, and no one wanted to take us out of it. And. And now, you know, Gripton be so much more protective about that stuff. I don't know if you saw, like, our photo on our studio door, but it's like a. Literally a set of rules that are like, before you come in here, like, you know, think about this. Like, is what you're about to say really important? Like, are they in the middle of something? And. And, you know, because we found that, like, it's so easy for someone to come in and just be like, hey, by the way, that, you know, deal. Or that show something happened, and you're just like, ugh, God dang it. And then you're like, now I'm not.
- [17:32]
B
It's Paul Graham's, like, great essay that, you know, talks about the maker schedule and the manager schedule. And, like, when someone's making things, you need to not distract them. Totally too expensive.
- [17:41]
A
The flow state is very real. I mean, like, roses happened in one session. Like most. A lot of closer happened. Even though it's like, an idea that had been floating around happened in one session. Don't let me down. Similarly. So, like, there is something consistent about that, and you really, like, want to stay in that. That plays most songs still. You come back and spend seven months refining and tinkering. But generally speaking, it's not like, hey, I got 10% of this song out today and then 20% tomorrow. And, you know, there's just something. You know, Drew has this great expression where it's like, there's something changes when a song becomes, like, promiscuous, you know, and. And it's like, listen to too much too many people before it's done or too many opinions have weighed in on what people think.
- [18:21]
B
Song smooths out the good edge.
- [18:23]
A
Yeah, exactly. And it's just like, something. The magic is just kind of, like, eroded away. And. And I think he's totally true. And I think, like, I'm always like, let's not show anybody this thing. Or, like, outside of.
- [18:35]
B
Really, like, especially when, you know, it's good. You know, I think about this a lot. This happens in. This actually happens for me in investing. It happens in other areas of Life, too, where you're uncertain. You're uncertain, you know, and you're asking for a lot of opinions, and then every once in a while, there's a thing that you're positive is good. Yeah. And you don't need to ask anybody's opinion, and you just do that thing.
- [18:53]
A
I totally agree.
- [18:53]
B
And you're like, I know this is right.
- [18:55]
A
You have to, like, trust your gut. At the end of day. Like, I'm a huge intuition gut guy, and that's why I'm happy to have Drew as a partner. Because we kind of like, yeah, iron sharpens. Iron is kind of like how we think about it, but at the same time, like, it's so easy to get talked out of something awesome. You know what I mean? And, like, you know, people don't always have the same context. Everyone's coming with their own, you know, like, experiences that are shaping the way they're thinking about something. So you might be like, hey, I love this, you know, idea. Nuclear. It's great. And they'll be like, this guy's, like, never going to work. And it's like, well, is that because you lost $20 million and, like, the last era of nuclear, or are you actually looking at this with, like, a fresh eye that's not, like, tainted by any past experience? And I don't think anyone could say that or not in some way, shape or form, you know, the, you know, outcome of all of their experiences. Some of all their experiences.
- [19:45]
B
Just because I love these song stories, if we could do one more. Don't Let Me down is another one of my favorites. Can you tell me how that came together?
- [19:51]
A
Yeah. And it's funny because I, like, wasn't in the room when this song was written. It was a heartbreaking thing. I think I had, like, a doctor's appointment or something stupid that day. And so Drew and we were in New York. We lived next door to each other on 23rd street, and we did this session with Scott Harris and Emily Warren and both amazing writers. Emily's been like, is, like, one of our closest friends now. I remember they came in and wrote, you know, they were inspired by kind of, like, the xx, the band. I think they're headlining. Coachella are close to it this year. Incredible band, and they just have these incredible guitar riffs, and they wanted. And at the same time, Drew had just been challenged by his girlfriend to make a trap song. Or his girlfriend at the time. Now she was just, like, really into, like, Yellow Claw and Trap artists. And he was like, I can. I Can make this, you know, and, like. And so he was like, but I want to combine, like, our indie approach. I love the xx. I love, you know. You know, I do like, trap. I just haven't made any of it. And, you know, I remember, like, getting there after everyone left, and he was like, so we wrote this today. And I was like, good God. You know, I mean, I was like, what the hell? Like, it wasn't fully flushed out, but it was, like, pretty.
- [20:57]
B
It was good.
- [20:58]
A
Pretty damn good. I don't think he had the drop yet, but it was, like, coming together, and. And I was like, what's it about? And he was like, well, it's. Emily wrote it about being lost at Coachella on drugs. And so. And, like, you're supposed to meet up with friends.
- [21:12]
B
Yeah.
- [21:12]
A
But, like, that you can't find them. And you're like, don't let me down. And I was like, this is a. You know, really. This is a really good song. And then we, like, had a flight later that night, and when we landed, Drew was like, I think I got the drop. And I was like, so it was, like, kind of a weird song for me because I was like, I really didn't have much of a hand in it at all.
- [21:29]
B
We're going to stitch that drop in here. Because I just played it in my head.
- [21:31]
A
Yeah. And then, like, you know, and then I'm like, but I get to, you know, reap all of these amazing rewards for it. And obviously, we didn't have day on the song at the time. We didn't have the finale. So a bunch of things, like, I, you know, did get to participate in. But, like, truly, I mean, that was a Drew Emily Scott special.
- [21:46]
B
Yeah.
- [21:47]
A
You know, the last thing I'll say that was really funny about this song is that I remember we were like, this is the song going to be the next single, 100%. Everyone that heard it was like, this is insane. And then Drew's computer completely crashed. And I wouldn't say Drew's the epitome of organization. And so we were like, what do you mean? Like, you've got a backup or, like, something? And he's like, I don't have anything.
- [22:05]
B
It's gone.
- [22:06]
A
And so he had to rebuild the entire song from memory, from scratch, which is kind of truly insane.
- [22:11]
B
Oh, that's frustrating.
- [22:12]
A
But he'll tell you that it was actually a really important exercise. And I think this kind of leans into a lot of things that Rick Rubin does really well, which is, like, he didn't include anything that wasn't completely necessary next time around. Like, he was like, I remember the guitar. I remember the bass. I remember the piano. I remember the drop synth I used and the horns in the end. And it was like, instead of having, like, in the first version, kind of had all these different layers, trying to compensate for things and create more depth and texture and different things. Instead, he was just like, I got to get this done. These are the main parts that I remember.
- [22:43]
B
And your recreation came out better.
- [22:44]
A
Better, I'd say, because it was just like, all of the bullshit that was. Was, like, kind of removed from it. But I was also like, we have to. Now we have a very thorough backup. Yeah, but. But it was. You know, that was a scary one because it was like, what if we lost that song forever?
- [22:57]
B
Actually, this makes me wonder if you had to go back and recreate, like, you know, similar versions of your existing songs right now. Yeah. And be like, make it sound mostly the same, but, like, you know, see if you can improve it.
- [23:09]
A
Yeah.
- [23:09]
B
Do you think you could, like, could you go make Paris a little better if you just, like, spent a week on it?
- [23:13]
A
I think, like, we've said in the past that, like, Don't Let Me down and maybe Sick Boy are, like, the only two songs we've ever, like, finished that we were like, those are done.
- [23:22]
B
You know, I don't know how to make this like.
- [23:24]
A
Like, that. Is that every other song? There's, like, something to it, and you're.
- [23:28]
B
Like, I could change that to make it better.
- [23:29]
A
Turning something down, turning something up. You know what I mean? Like, just little. You know, like, tonally things. He might sing a little differently. Nothing significant. You know what I mean? But, like, just, like, do you do that?
- [23:40]
B
So when you play songs, like, live, do you improve them years after you've released them? And then the live version that you play is, like, you stick with an improvement.
- [23:49]
A
I think, like, for us, like. Yes. I think part of it is, like, DJ culture of just, like, we want to surprise people. We want people to hear the song that they love and know, but, like, surprise them with a bigger drop or something that, you know, just leans into, like, the experience we're trying to create at the show a little more without, like, ruining the actual. You know, Nothing's worse than being like, oh, it's my favorite song. What the hell is this? You know, like, first thing he's playing.
- [24:12]
B
Years ago, I went to a show of yours in Las Vegas, daytime.
- [24:16]
A
Yeah.
- [24:17]
B
And I was just like, this is, like, the most unbelievable energy ever.
- [24:20]
A
Yeah. It's fun there.
- [24:20]
B
It's a crazy energy.
- [24:21]
A
It's fun there.
- [24:22]
B
It's got to be. So I can't even imagine what it feels like for you. I mean, I know anything. We all get used to anything. And so I'm sure after you've done.
- [24:28]
A
It enough, every experience is you and different, because everyone in Vegas is, like, trying to have the best time of their life, which makes that experience really fun for us.
- [24:35]
B
But, like, because you're just like, I'm trying to help this huge group of people just have, like, the best day of all.
- [24:39]
A
That's what you got to remember. I mean, like, it's been a. Like, I've been playing there for, like, seven years now. And you go in and you kind of be like. I mean, now we play, like, four or five hundred shows there, and you're like, yeah, this is, like, routine.
- [24:49]
B
But for them, like, they like, yeah.
- [24:51]
A
And you're like, that's our job. You know, like, I'm not gonna. Sure. I'll throw in some tracks that I want to educate people on or I think are cool that maybe aren't popular yet. But, like, a lot of the experience is just like, hey, like, we know what you're here for. I. I've been in your shoes. I just want to, like, party with my best friends and have a great day singing and dancing the songs that I love, maybe. And our job is to, like, present them in clever, fun, unique ways that make it interesting, because it's like, you know, Vegas. I don't say, like, the people there are the lowest common denominator, because that's not true. But, like, the. The habits of what as a sum of their parts, like, they all like Mr. Brightside, you know, like, who doesn't really like that song? And so, you know, you're like. But then you'll play, like, you know, a song that's number one on Billboard right now, and people are like, I don't know this song.
- [25:34]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [25:34]
A
And it's like, damn, this song does not trickle down. And so it's amazing to watch how long it takes for a song to, like, permeate through culture, to, like, reach that broad consumer base. And it's our job to kind of test those waters and challenge people, but, like, feed them things they know. Like, we have this closer edit where we start with Fast Car and then goes, like. And then the Luke Ryan version and then goes into Closer. And, like, people love it, you know, because it's like, country fans now. People that love Fast Car, people that Love Closer. And it, like. And, like, just when you think you know the song, you're like, oh, it's closer. And then you're like, wait, it's fast car. And then it goes back in the closer, and it's like, those are the fun things that you can do that, like, make, you know, a pretty straightforward experience more interesting.
- [26:18]
B
You have this really rare trait, which is that you are both an artist and a real business person. Even listening to the way you've talked about, like, songs and music, you know, part of it is, like, you got to go internal, make your own thing, not listen to anybody. Like, screw what other people think.
- [26:32]
A
Yeah.
- [26:33]
B
Which is, to me, like, the epitome of an artist. And then you're also like, give people what they want. And we're here to, like, deliver, like, an experience for people and, you know, listen to them and get their feedback, which is like the epitome of, like, a business person. And you're both.
- [26:44]
A
Yeah, we're. It's a. We're tormented inside.
- [26:47]
B
Even the fact you spend half your time and, you know, as. As an investor, half your time as an artist, you know, that mix up, I think, is uncommon.
- [26:54]
A
It's awesome. I mean, I think, like, for us, you know, when Drew and I met, I guess, like, almost 14 years ago now, like, from the very first hang, you know, it was pretty clear to us that we both had really big ambitions, but we were very aligned in how we wanted to achieve them. Like, it wasn't like there was going to be some shortcut to success. We were like, we're both willing to put in the work and the hours, whatever it takes to kind of get where we want to go. But I think, like, the unique part, I mean, this was a crazy first meeting. I mean, first we were like, do you like Calvin Harris? You know, and it was like, yeah, like, Calvin Harris was like, cool. What else? What else do we have in common? But then quickly, it was like, our love for dance music, our background, tastes of music and things we listen to, you know, entrepreneurial endeavors that we had throughout our youths that we didn't know each other. And then, like, we kind of like, we're like, all right, let's do this. But also, like, when we are successful in building the chain smokers, like, let's only use that as, like, the stepping stone to, like, building a bigger platform of opportunity and entrepreneurial efforts. We had no idea what those things were, but we were like, from the get go, we were both like, it's not just going to stop. Here. Yeah. And I think for us, you know, you know, Drew used to sell Timberlands that he bought locally in China.
- [27:58]
B
You guys are always entrepreneurs, always doing.
- [28:00]
A
Stuff and trying to, you know, find ways to be creative and clever in business. And I think, you know, music is such a, like, certain part of your brain and personality.
- [28:08]
B
Yeah.
- [28:09]
A
That, like, I do think part of us was like, yearning also for something that was, like, a little bit more tangible and analytical. And I don't want to say music's not competitive, but business is definitely a different type of competition or way of thinking about it. You know, for us, we had started Tequila Company. We had a TV and production company, and venture was kind of the last, most recent thing for us. And honestly, I didn't know what it was. You know, Like, I really did not know anything about venture. Like, I. I remember a business manager was like, I got pinged by some company that wants you to, you know, potentially invest and take some equity. And I was like, what does that. Like, what does all that mean? You know, like, I mean, understand what equity means, but, like, what is, you know, venture capital? Like passive income? And he was just like, listen, I'll. You know, you guys have been intelligent about how you've diversified your portfolio over the last few years. Like, this is certainly not something you have to explore, but if you are interested in investing in products or platforms or things that, you know, you think are cool, let's try it, you know, and like, most of the time you're going to fail, but, like, maybe you get lucky and work out. And, you know, we began that journey and very quickly. It was like a part of our brain lighting up that, like, I felt like had been not dormant but, like, underserved. And it was just so fascinating to be passively along on the ride with these founders that had these, like, super ambitious goals and plans for the future. And then, you know, it kind of just like avalanche of things came from that.
- [29:31]
B
Yeah. And then I'm sure it all, like, plays together. And, you know, I'm sure there's a bunch of ways where, you know, business makes your music better or music can make your business better.
- [29:39]
A
Definitely.
- [29:40]
B
I'm sure there are also ways where you probably feel, like, tensions on certain days just because there's only so many hours in the day.
- [29:45]
A
Yeah.
- [29:46]
B
An example I've thought about that. I'm actually really curious to hear how you think about. Last year I got into, like, hi Fi Audio. It's just like, I've always loved music. I played music a lot. Like, as a Kid growing up and I love listening to music and I started listening to albums. I find the experience of listening to a whole album like super different than just listening to a song.
- [30:04]
A
Yeah.
- [30:04]
B
And I feel like the difference is I'm listening to like an artist rather than like, you know, a song.
- [30:09]
A
Totally.
- [30:09]
B
And so it's just like, who's this person? And then I get into like, you know, their albums over time and like how they, you know, grow and evolve and you see what they pour into it. You had chat about this a bit before, but like one of my favorites is Bon Iver.
- [30:22]
A
Yeah.
- [30:22]
B
And like, you know, he's just had like there's. I can't say enough good things. I'm gonna mess it up. But like there was like the early days with like for Emma forever ago where it's just like, it's all so raw and young and he's talking about a breakup and he's, you know, I think his band fell apart. He's like in the woods with like a sad sounding guitar, but it's amazing. And then he gets into like his core stuff a few years later like with his like self named album.
- [30:46]
A
Yeah.
- [30:46]
B
And it's totally different. And there's band around him now. Then it got really experimental. Like he had like IMI before that there was 22amillion. And those songs, I'm just like, what? Fudgeing instrument?
- [30:56]
A
No, I mean, I don't recognize. Yeah, yeah.
- [30:59]
B
It's crazy.
- [30:59]
A
Johnny Vernon is like the goat of goat, you know, I think we talk about this with you know, like any artist out there. Like if Bon Iver is not in their like top five, I would be like thoroughly surprised by that. He's just so real, you know, he's like, I don't know cars, but it's like people that are like, you know, there's cars and then there's car lovers. Favorite cars that are universally like, that's the car. You know, he's like that for musicians. And I think, you know, to your point about albums, which is something, you know, we talk a lot about today because there's just so many. It's changed so dramatically the format by which we listen to music, fighting for people's attention. But I do think that like you would be hard pressed to find an artist in the history of music that like would stand the test of time that hasn't delivered like an incredible album. I think it's like an absolutely essential part if you will ever be mentioned among the greats.
- [31:48]
B
And those albums, they're just like so much has to go into an album.
- [31:51]
A
Totally. And I think, like, I know Billie Eilish talks about it a lot. She's just like, I try not to pick singles on my albums. Like, the context is so important. Like, she's like, I generally, like, I'm kind of put off by. When an artist is like, this song is my single. And, you know, like. And I think, like, Jack kind of said it best, actually, where he's like, singles are, like, without an album, or, like, hallways that lead to nowhere, you know, and singles can be a path to a story, which is fine, but.
- [32:18]
B
You need their story.
- [32:19]
A
You need the story, you need the album. And I know that's, like, harder than ever in today's culture of social media and fighting for attention.
- [32:26]
B
Well, it must take so much focus. I must. It's not something that you could do in a day. It's not something you could even probably do in a week.
- [32:32]
A
Or. No, you have to, like, it's so.
- [32:34]
B
Tortured for a year, I bet.
- [32:35]
A
Literally. I mean, I think we've, you know, made some great albums in the past, and every album was, like, dramatically different in terms of our approach. Probably the thing that, like, felt closest to what, like, the artist that I really admire and respected, it was because you kind of do have to, like, unplug from the world. You're like, I'm going off into this mental space and physically, and I'll be back when I have something that I'm excited about, you know, And I don't even know what that is yet. I need to figure out what that story is, what that visual line is, what, you know, what I care about right now. What does it feel and sound like? I'm a huge tame and polyfan. He does a really great job of this. But, you know, for us, like, during COVID we rented a house. It was actually right before COVID in Hawaii. Shout to Brian Chesky. We were friends of his. We had, like, met him through some events and stuff, and he was like, if you ever want to, you know, one of the houses to rent an album, like, let me know. And we were like, we'll take one in Hawaii. And we went there for, like, four weeks and just did mushrooms and surfed and wrote music literally every minute of the day. And it was like, this is what, you know, we weren't taking meetings. We weren't getting interrupted by. Yeah, we were, like, locked in on this sound. Granted, it still took, like, two years to really finish that album. But, like, when we came back, we were like, this is The. You know what I mean? Like, we had. We were, you know, like the road had been paved and we just needed to continue down.
- [33:51]
B
Did the mushrooms help?
- [33:52]
A
Yes and no. I mean, I think it can lead you like, similar to what we're talking about alcohol. It's like there's like the perfect balance. Like it got out of our own way. It's like this ego killer thing. It like, I want to say flattened, like. But you know, when we were all like. It's weird if you do mushrooms with like a group of people for some reason, like, you all hit at the same time and it's. I don't know if anyone's listening can agree with that, but like, you could sit around friends, you all take mushrooms. You're all different sizes. You're all different, you know, biologies. But like category. Like, I guarantee you, you will all be like at the same time, be like, whoa. You know, And I think that like got us and everyone that was there on this similar page where we were really connected and in tune with the things we wanted to say and write and the feeling we got from everything. But at the same time, you can like over index and them you can get weird. We, you know, start writing about really weird stuff. And I think again, it's everything in moderation is important. But that time it was like, that was the feeling we want, you know, have we. We didn't want to come in there with angst and aggression from previous experiences, you know, like, our Sick Boy album, like, was filled with like, kind of like resentment towards like the press and media and. And how people perceived us. It was like this weird disassociating feeling. But it was weird because over that was like an album that came together song by song in a different way. And then like literally like eight songs in the album, we were like, happy again, you know. And so like this album takes like this dramatically different tone.
- [35:16]
B
Yeah.
- [35:16]
A
And you're just like.
- [35:17]
B
But I think that's what makes it authentic when it's like that 100%.
- [35:19]
A
But we're just like, what a weird. Yeah, you know, like, it is weird.
- [35:22]
B
When you're listening and you're like, oh, something happened.
- [35:24]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, well, you know, and so, I mean, it's definitely like a reflection of us and the timeline of our lives and the things we were experiencing. But, you know, it wasn't like a moment like, how do you balance, like.
- [35:35]
B
Wanting to give people what they love. And obviously, like, I'm sure a huge part of what drives you is like, getting to make millions of people happy.
- [35:41]
A
Totally.
- [35:41]
B
Music.
- [35:42]
A
Yeah.
- [35:42]
B
How do you balance that and, you know, the type of music they love.
- [35:45]
A
Yeah.
- [35:45]
B
With. I'm sure you also have your own interests in music and your own desires to grow as an artist in different ways and to try new things.
- [35:52]
A
Yeah.
- [35:52]
B
And, like, I'm sure there's some tension there.
- [35:54]
A
It's such an important question to ask because I think that there's so many starters. Like, first, you, like, find a sound that's unique to you, and people rally around it and are excited about it. You know, you make this song and it becomes, you know, not what you're synonymous for, but, like, you know, Tame Paula has a sound. You know, Drake has a sound. Everyone has something that is identifiable where you're like. That's like, you know, the vibe. And then you start people being like, oh, it's. It's just that again. Or, like, let's see, you make something else and try something else naturally. Like, the bad comments like that for some reason cut through and we can make anything. Like, we generally are, like, good producers.
- [36:29]
B
To make all kinds of music.
- [36:30]
A
And so then you find yourself in the studio being like, I'm not gonna show you. And in some cases, it works. Like Drew's ex girlfriend that was like, you can't make trap songs. You know what I mean now? Yeah. But he found a way to fit in the context of our world, which I think makes sense. And so I think it's so important to, like, stay true to who you are. It doesn't mean don't experiment, doesn't mean broaden your horizons and seek, you know, and explore different opportunities. But I think it really important to, like, stay.
- [36:53]
B
And it has to be authentic, I think.
- [36:55]
A
Exactly.
- [36:55]
B
And, like, if you've changed as a person, I feel like the music should change almost.
- [36:58]
A
Absolutely. And it doesn't mean. It's like, I use this one, since I use this one synth in every. Every song. It's just like, hey, like, what's wrong with, like. Like, you know, people coming to us for this thing? Like, Kygo. This is why he does so goddamn well. It's because people come to him for this sound and experience, and it's fucking awesome. And I think he, you know, he really delivers that experience. I think the other, you know, side of the equation is kind of just this idea of, like, I'm a big Oasis fan, and I love, like, the Liam and Noel Caligar clips that you're getting from, like, the past. And he has this, like, epic clip that Everyone should go see where. He's just like. He's like, your fans are idiots. He's like, they don't know what they want. He's like, that's what I'm supposed to deliver to them. Like, I tell my fans what they want, they don't tell me, you know, what they want. You know, obviously he does it in his Oasis way, which is like, awesome and funny and reverent. But, like, I also totally agree with him and I think, you know, you have to balance that. You know, we had a song we just put out called Smooth that I love, and all of our fans, like, while we were promoting other songs were like, smooth, release Smooth. We want Smooth. And like, we made Smooth. We're very excited about Smooth. It is very authentically us. I don't think it's like a departure, but, like, I think we were also, like, thinking, like, oh, this is going to be our biggest song because our fans are all asking for it. But, like, I don't. It's not working out that way. Yeah. And so whereas, like, we released a song last summer called Addicted that none of our fans were stoked about, but ended up being, you know, one of our biggest songs in the last few years and, like, appealed to a much broader audience.
- [38:17]
B
Can you. So you're saying it's not that predictable what's going to hit.
- [38:20]
A
I think it's just like, you just got to do what you trust your gut. Kind of what we were saying earlier, like, you know, I don't think releasing Smooth was a mistake. I love that song, you know, but. And I don't think releasing Addicted, which none of our fans wanted, was a mistake. But I do think, think it's harder to play Addicted in our shows because it doesn't fit in naturally with, like, the energy we've created, whereas smooth is just 100% chain smoker. So I think you kind of have to, like, think about those things long term. And I think, like, selfie's a great example of this. Like, we made that song as a joke, put it on the Internet just for fun. Took us like 30 minutes to do it. And then we have to live with the song for the rest of our lives. You know, now, like, people expect us to perform it, talk about it. You know, it's part of our history. You know, we didn't think about that so much when we just put it online and the Internet, which is forever. And so it's, you know, those things have consequences. But I think as the artist, it's your job to like, absorb these things, understand why people are feeling a certain way. Like, I. I think, like, what we should have taken away from the Smooth thing is that people, like, love when Drew's singing. They love the, you know, intimate storytelling of. Of our music. And they, like, you know, the hands up progressive house production. And it's. But it doesn't mean. Necessarily mean that, like, we should be like, Like, Smooth is the next song because they want it, you know?
- [39:28]
B
Does good art require external inspiration? Like, can you make great stuff without some catalyst that's inspiring you? Whether it's something good or bad that happened in your life, somebody that you saw and learned from and, you know, were, you know, really moved by what they did.
- [39:44]
A
Yeah.
- [39:45]
B
Can a great thing really just bubble up out of you, or is it always being translated from some inspiration outside?
- [39:50]
A
I'm gonna go with inspiration. Like, and I'm not saying that, like, going back to what we were saying about Chris Martin and, like, music being sent down, and you kind of have to. But I think it's when it's sent down, you have to be in a place mentally and creatively to, like, receive that, you know, message and inspiration. And usually those feelings are coming from all these experiences that you've had around you in your life. Could be a new love, could be a breakup, could be a movie you've seen, could be a conversation you just had. You know, a lot of the ways we start songs are like therapy sessions. It's literally like, forget music. What's going on? You know, like, what is. How is your home right now? Are you having your relationship? Are there any things that surprise you? Like, what's up with your family? What's it like being 35 or 40, in my case? Through those conversations, you're kind of led to places or thinking about things that, you know, impacted you. And I think, like, acting's a great example of this. Like, you're literally, like, being hired to play the role of someone not you, you know, and so, like, you are channeling all of these things you've seen and experienced to, like, try to kind of capture the essence of this character in this film. And I can't remember, I think it was like a PBS episode where someone was, like, great acting, like, to be a great actor. Like, go do everything else except act. Like, to as many art shows as possible, see as many. As much theater as possible, listen to as much music as possible, read as many books as possible. And, like, then you will have this, like, incredible library of context where you can pull from and hopefully Create, you know, your own thing. And I think, you know, it's like kind of like the conversation about, like, large language models being, like, copyrightable outputs or not, you know, I don't think they really should be, to be honest with you.
- [41:20]
B
Have you played around with AI music at all yet?
- [41:22]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [41:23]
B
What do you think?
- [41:23]
A
Think it's incredible and scary.
- [41:25]
B
You think it'll matter?
- [41:27]
A
Like, it will matter?
- [41:28]
B
Do you think it will, like, do you think we'll be listening to a lot of AI generated music?
- [41:32]
A
I think we already are. You don't even know it. I think, like.
- [41:35]
B
Like, in the middle of your song, there will be clips that AI help.
- [41:38]
A
Or there'll be parts that AI maybe eventually. I mean, I think for us, it's just, like, shocking, you know, kind of. Again, like, what I like about AI tools right now for us is it just, like, keeps us in the zone, which is all we want to do. It's like, instead of getting caught up being like, fuck, we need to make drums now. Which is the next part of this creative process process for us. And it's going to take me, like, an hour and a half. It's like, never mind. I can prompt this thing to pump out. This might not be the final drums we're going to use, but it keeps us moving in the process of creativity, I think. You know, we've gotten demos sent to us where it's like 15 songs that Drew's singing on, and you're like, no, no, no. Actually, Drew sounds pretty good on that, and I think that's a really cool application of it. You know, I think that if you were in a nightclub and I was playing an AI generated song, but it was good, let's just say it was, like, a good song. Song. I don't think anyone know. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, genuinely, like, I think, like, if you can kind of do the, like, control placebo effect of, like, AI music.
- [42:32]
B
Versus it's pretty good.
- [42:34]
A
Yeah. Like, would people really be able to, like, determine which was. Which one isn't? That's. Do. I think it's important, like, kind of like the similar, you know, conversation about albums. Like, I do think context matters. Like, I think, like, you know, albums provide context the same way that, like, a personality provides context.
- [42:51]
B
That's how I feel. I mean, it's harder. I think a big part of what makes me enjoy music is knowing something about the artist and why the song, you know, the album happened. I don't think that's the only way to enjoy it. Like, I Also love just listening to something on the radio.
- [43:03]
A
Yeah.
- [43:03]
B
Or like, you know, you're out doing stuff. Like, that's awesome, too.
- [43:06]
A
Yeah.
- [43:06]
B
But, like, the best version of enjoyment of music. I do think the context helps.
- [43:10]
A
Absolutely. And I think, like, it's interesting because we're kind of, like, fighting against that with TikTok in many ways. Like, I think the way people are discovering music, which, you know, TikTok is a great tool for and platform for, is like, they just hear something that sounds catchy and they're like, I'm gonna make a video to this. Only recently did, like, Spotify create an integration where you can, like, click on the song that takes you to Spotify so you can even see what this person looks like. You know what I mean? Or anything. And I think, like, that step is definitely missing the mark in a lot of cases for, like, younger listeners now where they're not taking that extra. They're just like, oh, this is a cool song. I'm gonna. You know, not even everything that goes viral on TikTok translates to streaming on the platform either. But I think, you know, those were some of my. You know, that's why, like, music videos were so cool back in the day, because it was like, there they are, you know, now everyone's so available. Everything's out there. You know, we're all like, do we care? Do you even care? I just like the song, whatever, you know what I mean? But, like, I think, like, the artists that have longevity force people to, like, ask those questions and kind of like, seek them out a little further because, like, you know, seeing what Justin Vernon's like as a human being, it like, adds so much depth, so much music. Bruno Mars, Same thing.
- [44:15]
B
Yeah.
- [44:16]
A
This guy's absolutely great dancer. You know, you wouldn't know that if you didn't see come out. He also has more. He has more number one songs. Like, his average of number one songs is like 700% or something. Like, like 70 of the time. He has a number one song, which is like. He's only released like, 75 songs or something. 80 songs, which is, like, unbelievable statistics.
- [44:35]
B
One of the things that's so cool and, you know, I don't. You know, I'm in San Francisco in tech, and so I don't get to think about this as much, but, like, outlier talent is. It's really a cool thing.
- [44:44]
A
Yeah.
- [44:44]
B
That there are some people that are just that good at singing, that good at music, that good at, you know, entertainment. Like, it's. It's cool.
- [44:50]
A
Yeah. It's really cool. And also it's like, really weird when you see someone working on, having that talent, working on the wrong thing or, like, it's like, so talented that they can't even, like, channel it correctly. Like, I had terrible ADHD growing up and I was like a super average student until like, 10th grade. And then I figured out, like, making lists, organized my brain and like, it was just a function of, like, I can do everything. I just, like, wouldn't spend enough time, you know, like, and I love the experience of crossing things off more than I like, like, like hated having to focus. And it just made me like a war machine of, like, getting done. And I think, like, that's when you find someone that's like, doing the thing they're supposed to do at the right time. It's like one of the greatest.
- [45:32]
B
I feel like 30 years ago, 30 years ago, we like, misunderstood ADHD as this, like, ailment, and it like, turned out it's this superpower that just, like, needs like, cyclops classes 100%.
- [45:40]
A
I read a really interesting article the other day about, like, autism and how like, like a lot of, like, our favorite apps today used by most society were created by people that like, have some level of autism or sugars or something.
- [45:51]
B
Yeah.
- [45:52]
A
And that, like, they are by function, like tools that like, kind of like, like aid someone that's like, natural experience in public is, like, uncomfortable.
- [46:01]
B
Yeah.
- [46:02]
A
So like Facebook or Instagram or all these things, like, are ways to kind of like, like create community, but in, like, settings that are like, more consumable and comfortable. And I was like, that's really interesting. Thought that like, we've, like, you know, all the most powerful platforms were created by people that, like, wanted to create a platform that was like, leaned more.
- [46:21]
B
People think of ADHD as, like, inability to focus, and that's not what it is. It's disordered focus.
- [46:27]
A
Totally.
- [46:28]
B
So it's just also. It comes with mega focus.
- [46:30]
A
Yeah.
- [46:30]
B
Named correctly.
- [46:31]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, like, again, it's just like figuring out how to use those superpowers. That's like one of the biggest, biggest, I think, struggles that anyone has in life. Everyone has something they're inherently good at or have, you know, overcome some experience. I know. Like, I think it was like, Mike Moritz is, like, famous for asking for, like, like, what kind of trauma did you go through that's going to give you some sort of edge or chip on your shoulder, you know, drive that, like, will just help you succeed against everyone else? I think everyone has Those things, it's just like, it's really hard to. It is hard to uncover what those things are and even harder to figure out, like, where to direct that energy. Even if you do. I think, like, every day it's what motivates me because I'm like, I never thought I'd be doing any of this stuff, so it's kind of like, let's keep going.
- [47:10]
B
You know, I was thinking it's where, like, self awareness matters so much and it's what lets you take advantage of your special attributes.
- [47:17]
A
Yeah.
- [47:17]
B
And I think a lot of people want to be something that they're not or they want to do something that's not natural for them. And so maybe this is like a good segue into like, your investing work.
- [47:26]
A
Yeah.
- [47:26]
B
Where like, you've also now built a venture firm and you're working really hard, very successfully at that.
- [47:31]
A
Yeah.
- [47:31]
B
And it's a really different job than your. Than your music. And you and I were chatting before about, like, playing to your strengths and figuring out where you've got, you know, an unfair advantage and focusing your time there. So maybe just to like, start on the investing side, like, how do you think about where you want to be playing and where you should, like, focus? Mantis.
- [47:50]
A
It's kind of an interesting approach in terms of that, like, we are not consumer investors. Like, in fact leaned into, like, spaces that, like, we probably, like, have the least amount of business. Business being invested in. And I've listened to, like I said every. A lot of your episodes and like, every time I've finished listening to one, I'm like, what am I even. Do you know what I mean? Like, if this. This guy isn't my competitor by virtue of the way we've set up our firm. But, like, wow, you know, like, you.
- [48:13]
B
Mean that you've set up in order to, like, be able to participate with everybody?
- [48:15]
A
Yeah, like, we. We want to be collaborative. Like, I want to learn from everyone around me. I want people to think of us as an. An ally versus foe. I also think that's like, was a big part of our success in music was collaboration. So I think it's like, like a natural extension into venture and like, over time, we'll absorb these best practices and hopefully become the great investors that, you know, I listen to on the show every week. But I think for us, you know, we wanted to lean into spaces like a. Out of curiosity. Like, I was much more interested in investing in cyber security than I was in more consumer stuff. Similar with AI, similar with health tech and Deep and Frontier technologies. I just thought like, you know, if you're going to, if it's already such a gamble, at least in gamble, things that you care about I think are really interesting. I also thought that I was like, hey, this is like, like there's tons of celebrities investing in soda companies. Like, very few investing in software. Software, yeah, that is an advantage and disadvantage in itself. There's probably a reason why they're not doing that because it's really technical, really challenging and, and also like, what business do you have? Like, a lot of success that we hopefully will have is just, you know, an outcome of the value we're able to add. So like the second that, that we invest in a company and a founder's like, they just didn't know shit, they didn't do shit. Like, that was just a real waste of cap space for me. Like, we're dead in the water. So we definitely like took a risk doing this. But I think, you know, Drew and I are hustlers and we're just like, we're gonna figure it out. Like, we know I have to believe that there's more things these companies need than what is currently available to them. And also, like, modern day times are changing so fast. Like the things like, you know, when did B2BD creators now or B2B, you know, enterprise software founders are like fucking creators on X now. Like they're making videos. Like, they're like Logan Paul does. And that's awesome. And so I knew that there was going to be things that we could offer that would be helpful. And we wanted to make sure that it was like commiserate with like what we were asking for. You know, it's like, don't ask for 15% if you don't feel like you're going to add 15% value to the company. And then, you know, the last piece was also just like the formation of it. And I say this a lot, but like, you know, I want to, you know, we've made so many great relationships over the course of our career with all sorts of incredible people that are all like leaders of these different areas. And to us it was like, well, why not go raise capital from them, you know, turn them into allies of the fund where we're using them for advice. We're like potentially leveraging the success of their platforms to drive value back in the end into the companies we're investing. And they're like, we'll use them as our initial wedge so that when someone's like, why are you investing? Why Should I let you invest in this company? It's like, because I know you want to talk to this guy, and this guy's one of our good friends, and I can make that, you know, happen for you. But once we're in the door, we'll, like, provide, you know, all sorts of value. And I always say, and I think it really summed up by this kind of analogy, it's just like we're trying to be the sixth man of the year on every championship team, you know, like, I'm not trying to be a starter right now. Like, I much. I think it's much cooler to come off the bench for a team that wins a ring than it is to be a starter on a team that's not even in the playoffs. And, you know, I think we stand to learn more by being a part of that process.
- [51:08]
B
What you mean by that is you just want to be in great companies, even if it's not like you led the round or something.
- [51:12]
A
Thing. Yes, that. But I think, like, the implications of, like, being alongside a founder that is building a great company, you get to see what greatness looks like. You know, you get to understand what are they doing. That's like, I can take and hopefully replicate across other investments. And it's like, you know, you kind of are what you eat. Like, if you hang out with shitty people, yeah, you're going to be a shitty person, probably. You know what I mean? You know, like, if you got to play on the, you know, what was it like 2002 Lakers or 2001 Lakers? Like, with Kobe Bryant, like, you got to see this man, the way he practiced, the way he approached the sport, like, the intensity. You also got to see how Phil Jackson coached the team. And so for me, as like, a new investor, it's like, that's a huge benefit, too. Like, obviously, the goal is to be a part of great companies, so we generate big returns. But I think for us, it's also just an opportunity about learning from the best and seeing what that profile looks like so that we can improve.
- [52:00]
B
Do the two worlds trade with each other in any way, or are you just trying to learn from them on in the background? In other words, like, are you in any ways directly using, you know, one sort of network or one sort of special access point and the other. Or you. Like, actually, that's like polluting the sanctity of each. And I'm going to learn from both, but they're two different businesses. Yeah.
- [52:20]
A
Let me start with, like, a story Jimmy Buffett told us and we were fortunate enough to have an amazing lunch with him before he passed away. And for us, it was an opportunity to ask, like, an amazing musician about how he got so deeply involved in, like, the business side of his empire, which was like, Margaritaville. And at the time, time, you know, he was towards the end of his life, and he was like, I'm building retirement communities that are, like, for my fans. So if you're like 80 years old, but you don't want to. You want to. You don't want to go to some shitty retirement home. You want to go to the Margaritaville experience retirement home. Like, I'm always serving my fans and always thinking about, like, businesses that are, like, extensions of who I am. And so, you know, with venture, the more that we spoke to people, whether they're on the investing side or founder side or operating side, the more we felt comfortable about, like, a lot of the things that made people great, you know, in those spaces, were things that were inherently things that made it successful in music. But I think in music similar to venture, like, music is a losing game. Like, most of the songs we put out do not go unless you're Bruno Mars. Do not go on to be successful, you know, or at least like the success that, you know, you would talk about in Rolling Stones or Billboard or something like that. But you do learn something very important from every song. You are building, you know, character and history and, you know, reps in the gym and pattern recognition. And I think investing is a lot like that. Like, everyone I spoke to, which was like, hundreds of people, was like, like, most of your investments are going to go to zero. And I was like, one comfortable with that. You know what I mean? But, like, you have to, like, learn from that. You can't let it be, you know, like, it can't set you back in terms of, like, your next deal. You have to, like, immediately get back to the, you know, out there and, you know, stop looking at the scoreboard. Just keep your eyes on the field. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, something that's really important. And I also think, just like, in general, like, every time we put out a song, we have to, like, provide context to it. We have to create a story around it. We have to, like, reinvent ourselves and tell people, like, why we should pay attention as to right now. And it's noisier than ever. And I think every company, whether you're in the enterprise, B2B space or consumer side or have that same opportunity and hill to climb, and I think you know, we can provide, like, a vantage point that is, like, very useful and helpful, I think, to founders. That's not, like, contrarian to what, like, the tier one Sequoia or, you know, whoever is offering. We just think that, like. Like, we're the. You want the Avengers on your cap table. You want someone that has, like, a unique perspective and point of view, that's looking at things differently, but wants the same outcome. And I think, like, music and our experiences in that and building, our business there and our brand are, like, super relevant to, like, how we think about company building.
- [54:47]
B
I'd be curious to hear your reflections on, like, how you experience, like, sort of, you know, elite circles in music and entertainment and in tech and investing. You have real time with both. Both.
- [54:58]
A
Yeah.
- [54:58]
B
Just be curious, like, how similar is it? Are there, like, some, like, fundamental differences?
- [55:03]
A
I feel more like. I don't know why. Like, I mean, we have, like, plenty of awesome friends in the entertainment space that are, you know, successful. But, like, it does feel like. Like, either there's, like, secret groups that I don't know about where everyone's hanging out. Like, sometimes you see a wedding and you're like, damn. Like, so they all hang out, like, you know. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, what a cool. I wish I was part of that group. I mean, Drew and I are just like. We've always just kind of, like, we love being social, but we're also just, like, so. So locked in on, like, you've got.
- [55:27]
B
A lot to do.
- [55:27]
A
Yeah, well, we're just like. Like, we're, you know, we've never count. No one lifted us up. You know what I mean? And we kind of have always felt like it's like, it's on our shoulders to, like, figure this out and make the music. And, like, if we're out gallivanting around, networking with celebrities. Yeah. Like, it's just like. I don't know. It doesn't feel natural.
- [55:43]
B
It doesn't make music.
- [55:44]
A
Yeah, it doesn't make music, you know, and I think there's, like, value in it. Like, going to Fashion Week is cool. Like, if you love fashion. Drew loves fashion. Like, it's, you know, an amazing experience. Like, I don't care about it that much, you know, So I think we all seek out, like, things and interests that align with who our personalities are. But, like, I honestly, like, I feel like we align with, like, the founder tech world a lot more acutely because we're just like, you know, let's, you know, like, put hours in the gym and like, the harder we throw, like, work through, like, our, you know, selves with these problems, the more we're resolved, we're, you know, get out what we put in. And, you know, we. I feel like we have a kind of an imposter syndrome with, like, the Hollywood side of things. Like, I don't feel uniquely special. I feel great about myself, but I don't think, like, anyone should treat me, you know, differently for the things we've done in the past. And it's like, I'm more just like, what have I done, you know, today?
- [56:34]
B
Yeah.
- [56:35]
A
Than I am, like, what had done in the past. Yeah.
- [56:37]
B
I mean, I always think celebrity is a very funny thing because it's like, no matter how famous somebody is, like, they're still a regular person. They wake up, they, like, wash their face, face in the mirror, like. And then they, like, look at me like, oh, yeah, I'm George Clooney. I forgot, you know, there must be some experience like that for everybody.
- [56:49]
A
Absolutely. I mean, I think, like, you know, I'm, like, the most average. I mean, it's kind of a joke about us where, like, any two white guys can kind of be the chain smokers. And there's been plenty.
- [56:58]
B
But then you go around the world and people like, oh, I know who.
- [57:00]
A
You are, and totally. And I'm so, like, grateful for that. Like, I don't think I'm like, an ordinary, you know, person, but I. I think, like, to that end, like, you can't. I don't know, I just don't think that's, like, how you get that. Like, I don't think, like, elitism and things like that are, like, how you. If we think we're like, the greatest human beings in the world, like, is our music going to begin to feel like that? You know what I mean? And reflect that and, like, the relationships we have with people and I think for us, it's. Our brand has always been built on, like, acknowledging everyone in the room. Like, some of our superpowers are. Like, if you walk into a crowded space, we're going to make you feel like you're the biggest VIP here, even if I've never met you before. And I think, like, that's how I want to. Wanted to be treated. I don't know, maybe it's like high school drama or something, you know, of things. But, like, that to me is. Is more important than anything. And, like, you know, when we were coming up, our music, like, we didn't want to be, like, wearing big diamond chain. I could afford diamond chains and super fancy cars. But it was like, I don't. That's not what we're about. Like, I wanted to, like, buy drinks for everyone at the bar.
- [57:58]
B
And I think it can take you away from the art. I think in business it can take you away from the good stuff there too. Like, I do just feel like when people get lost in like, material and ego and status, it is one of the ways people can like, lose themselves.
- [58:11]
A
Well, you see it on the founder side too. Like, you know, especially nowadays with like some of the rounds these kids are raising and secondaries they're allowing to take out and press surrounding them. And I've certainly been involved in some of those companies and they're not bad people. It's like insecurities or things catching up to you.
- [58:25]
B
Yeah.
- [58:25]
A
At like inopportune times where you're like driving cars you probably shouldn't be driving. Yeah. Like renting apartments or houses or going out too often. Because now, like, finally people are inviting you places and want to talk about you. And it's like, don't lose sight of thing. You see it happen in LA with young artists all the time. It's like they write a big song, they move to la. They're like girls that want to take you out. You're going to clubs, playing your music, and then suddenly you've been in the studio for one or two days and now there's a huge pressure on you and you're not honestly really sure what you should be doing. And I think for us, we were just like, like we're still living the dream, even though, you know, we're not going out every night. But we're like, like this is what we wanted to do the whole time. Why are we not doing this, you know, right now? And I think, you know, balance is really important. I think, like, you know, that doesn't mean to say that you should like this996 is the path to success. But like, I don't blame anyone for having those things. Like, we're all kind of the circumstances of like products of our environment. But it is a shame when you see it. And. But I also always understand when people are going through that.
- [59:25]
B
Yeah, it's like some. Somebody recently said to me that I think stuck with me that just like money and power, fame, like that whole sort of sphere of things, it doesn't necessarily corrupt, but it will definitely make more potent whatever natural inclinations you have. Totally. Obviously everybody has like light and dark inclinations.
- [59:43]
A
Probably what someone was like saying, like, I Always ask someone, like, what is more important to them, like, money, power, or, like. Yeah, fame. And there's like a right. You know what I mean? Like, the right answer is just like. Like, money. Because, like, fame is like, you're chasing something, like, egotistical. Whereas, like, I don't know. And I don't know if that's, like, a fair question.
- [60:03]
B
No, I think I. I think understanding what drives people and, you know, there's probably some other things in there. Some people just are, like, out of that whole game entirely. But I do think, you know, of those three, different people are very driven by different ones.
- [60:14]
A
Totally. I mean, you see it like. I mean, there's no, you know, more relevant places seen this than going to somewhere like Central Bay in the summer where it's like, you have billionaires that like, like, you know, can't get into a restaurant. Yeah. Just because you're a billionaire doesn't mean, like. But then Elton John pulls up, who's also probably a billionaire, you know, but he's Elton John, you know, he's getting that table. And so, like, we're all chasing access and relevancy. And I think, you know, in getting to know some of the artists we've worked with and just people that we've met over the course of our time, like, everyone is struggling with something. Everyone doesn't feel relevant enough. Everyone is like, you know, like, even Coldplay, I remember I was like, dude, they sell out 10 Wembley. Instantly.
- [60:48]
B
Yeah.
- [60:48]
A
You know, that's like 600,000, 700,000 tickets. And. And he's just like. But he wants kids, you know.
- [60:54]
B
The next generation is uncorrupted, though, to me.
- [60:56]
A
I think everyone's corrupted on some level. I think he's definitely probably on the lower end spectrum of that. Like, he is really principled person and. And, you know, and it's just an amazing guy. But I think we're all still. No matter what you tell yourself, there's like, I don't care. We tell the world one thing, but inside there's something else really driving you or. Or keeping you up at night. And I know. I feel it myself.
- [61:17]
B
Well, you're in an interesting spot because you.
- [61:19]
A
You've.
- [61:19]
B
You've done a lot. You're still young, you've got two very good businesses going, and you probably have, like, a busy decade ahead where it's like, you could.
- [61:27]
A
You could.
- [61:27]
B
You could go a lot of ways. Do you take it as it comes, or you, like, you've got a particular mission and a place you want to get Everything.
- [61:33]
A
It's important. Like, Drew and I probably don't do this enough for. It's like you have a conversation about, like, what do we want to do this year? You know what I mean? Like, what do we hope to gain? Like, what is the next. Like, do we. Are we both on the same page that we want to make and play music for the next five years? And you're like. And it's not, like, surprising the answers we have, but it's, like, surprising that we haven't had, had the conversations, you know, you also have to balance your, like, objectives with the reality of everything. Like, music is not a young man's game. Like, we both want to have families. Like, we definitely can't be. We could tour as much as we want right now with kids. But, like, what kind of impact does it have on the kids, on your relationships with your wife? Like, these are all things you have to consider that you maybe don't necessarily have all the answers for right now. I was listening to the David Sandra podcast, and he was like, I'm only, I only think 24 hours at a time. You know what I mean? And I was like, I don't know if that's a bad or good thing. That's good. Yeah. Like, I think, think it's. That's. That's a, you know, important way to stay locked in and continue to prioritize the things that are important for you in the short term. But, like, you know, you have to, like, build. Like, I don't. Didn't expect Mantis to be a tier one fund off the bat. You know, I knew it would take 10, 15, 20 years of hard work to get there. So you have to think on those timelines a little bit to get there and understand that, like, you know, we were taking 50k allocations in fund one into great companies because, like, we understood that's where we sat. Yeah. And it was more important to be in that logo than it was to, like, be outside. And I think in music, you know, similarly, like, where are we investing our time in singles and albums? You know, is it on the. The show that's the most important thing? Is it, you know, actually pulling out of the market? I mean, we're so available. Like, if you want to see us, you can come see a Vegas pretty much every weekend. Is that a bad thing? It's not a bad thing, but there's a trade off.
- [63:06]
B
It's a thing. Yeah.
- [63:07]
A
You know, it's a trade off. And so, you know, I think it's just being Aware of those things. Having those conversations.
- [63:12]
B
Yeah.
- [63:13]
A
Are so critical. I'm lucky to have a partner we can have, like, even though we're not the same person. We have. We're very more aligned than. More. Most people are.
- [63:20]
B
It's incredibly lucky.
- [63:21]
A
Yeah. And you get to, like, you know, he'll say things that I'm like, oh, that's. I wasn't really thinking about it in that context, but that is super relevant. But it scares the out of me. I mean, like, you know, my dad died. I think he was, like, 54, you know, so I'm like, only.
- [63:33]
B
Yeah.
- [63:33]
A
And he felt so old, like, mature to me.
- [63:35]
B
Mine was 67.
- [63:36]
A
Yeah. And it's just a weird context when you, like, put it in that. That perspective of, like, oh, my God, I'm already not far off in this guy. Am I, like, better shape? My better look of second more, you know, better looking, more successful? Am I a bigger asshole? Like, will I have left, you know, an impact on the world on some. Some level? But. But I think you. You know, you can't lose your mind not being able to control the things you obviously can't control.
- [63:58]
B
Yeah.
- [63:59]
A
And. And just, like, have fun. That's something I think, like, Drew and I've been saying a lot lately, which is like, to me, like, momentum is just the most important thing with anything. And it doesn't necessarily mean, like, momentum in, like, our songs are streaming more or making more money this year, or they, like, momentum comes in all different shapes and sizes. And it's like, I want to have fun when we make music in the studio and we talk about planning a tour or what our show looks like. You know, I want to. When we're discussing deals, it's like, a lot of. It's not fun in the traditional sense, but it's like, damn, we're, like, in here for this great deal. Like, I can't believe we're, you know, like, having these conversations with these people. And I think that, to me, is, like, what drives me, you know, it's just like, every day you're kind of like, you know, a couple steps forward is, like, very meaningful when you zoom out in the long run and try not to get wrapped up in the, like, hysteria of, like, damn, this song failed.
- [64:48]
B
You know, keeping it something where you're happy to win, not just, like, sad to lose, I feel like, is so important 100%.
- [64:53]
A
I mean, I told you about a deal. I'm, like, freaking stressing out about right now, and. And I'm like, already in my head I'm like, this is probably going to say no, you know, like, or zero. And I'm like, and what is that? What would that make me feel like? And what does that mean? And for the future? And like, do I want to help this person anymore after this? Like, you know what kind of. And I'm just like, no, of course I'm gonna fucking help this person. And of course I'm gonna be bummed out. And of course I'm gonna try again the next time. And, you know, but like, also, you know, this guy's answering my text every time I answer. He's not, you know, there's. He could just be like, no. You know, like. And so, you know, you kind of. I'm an optimist in that sense where it's like, you know, it could be a lot, lot, a lot worse.
- [65:30]
B
It's an awesome mindset, Alex. This is great. I'm let you get back to your day. Thanks a ton for doing this with me.
- [65:34]
A
Let's go.
- [65:35]
B
All right.
- [65:36]
A
Hell, yeah.
- [65:41]
B
They're watching us.
- [65:42]
A
Yeah, guys just zipping around, just trying to watch this.
- [65:46]
B
We'll post in a couple weeks.
- [65:47]
A
Yeah. Dude, I had no idea you had fans like that. It's crazy.
- [65:50]
B
Sorry.