70 Years of TV Advertising - why it works & the best ads of all time - Carloyn McCall, ITV

Summary

Uncensored CMO: 70 Years of TV Advertising – Why It Works & the Best Ads of All Time

Guest: Dame Carolyn McCall, CEO of ITV
Host: Jon Evans
Date: October 1, 2025
Episode Theme: Marking the 70th anniversary of UK television advertising, Jon Evans sits down with Carolyn McCall to explore TV advertising’s enduring power, ITV’s transformation, iconic ads, and lessons for today’s marketers.

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Episode Overview

The conversation celebrates 70 years of TV advertising in the UK, reflecting on the evolution, impact, and future of the medium. As CEO of ITV and recently-appointed President of the Marketing Society, Carolyn McCall offers unique perspective on advertising’s pivotal role in culture, business performance, and creative innovation. Together, Jon and Carolyn dissect advertising classics, effective campaign strategies, the continuing relevance of TV, and the innovations shaping the next era of broadcast marketing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

ITV at 70: Pride, Transformation & Purpose

• Celebrating heritage: ITV’s regional origins and storied creative legacy (Granada, Yorkshire) are a source of pride, but there’s deeper satisfaction in how ITV has kept pace with rapid technological change.
• Recent transformation: The introduction of streaming (ITVX) and a sharp focus on adapting to data and digital have redefined ITV’s business.
  • “So we've had to do so much from a technology data advert. Advertising has changed beyond belief and that has kept us very much on our toes.” — Carolyn McCall [01:31]
• Creativity & commercial imperative: ITV’s unique position as a public service and commercial broadcaster means balancing purpose, responsibility to society, and the need to fund operations via advertising.

The Centrality (and Underrepresentation) of Marketing in Business

• Boardroom gap: Less than 4% of board members have marketing backgrounds, a major missed opportunity.
  • “The key thing there is to get marketers at the center of conversations in organizations... It's not just about the ad. It starts with the consumer.” — Carolyn McCall [02:35]
• Marketer empowerment: The Marketing Society aims to give marketers confidence, skills, and global networking to claim leadership roles—ranging from operational excellence to CEO positions.
• The CEO pathway:
  • Do diligent research before taking the top job—understand operational realities, set your vision, and listen widely across the business before making decisive moves.
  • “Don't sit in an office listening to people present to you when you're a CEO... go out and talk to people right around the company... listen, listen, listen, and then act quickly.” — Carolyn McCall [05:38]

Serving the Nation: TV’s Social & Emotional Responsibility

• Public service meets commerce: ITV’s remit covers news, live sport, drama, and reality TV, all underpinned by ad funding.
• Entertainment funds serious journalism: Big shows (Love Island, I’m a Celebrity) subsidize public service content like regional news and impactful dramas (e.g., Mr. Bates vs. The Post Office).
  • “A lot of the entertainment shows... fund news and fund things like Mr. Bates in the Post Office.” — Carolyn McCall [08:34]
• Powerful storytelling: TV dramas can move public sentiment, influence government, and drive real-world change.
  • “This is what I'm saying. I think the impact is an emotional impact... it shows the power of TV better than most things, actually.” — Carolyn McCall [11:10]
• Example: Mr. Bates vs. The Post Office led to a government debate and attempted restitution for victims, highlighting TV’s social influence.

Competing in a Streaming World

• Global pressures: ITV can’t match big streaming budgets, so it focuses investment on core strengths—entertainment, reality, sport, news, and drama.
  • “We have to make sure every penny we have is well spent... [and] be very focused on what we're really good at.” — Carolyn McCall [12:01]
• Strategic content partnerships: ITV Studios both competes and collaborates, selling shows to Netflix, Disney+, and even the BBC.
  • “There's that interesting thing where we are often partners with people and then we're also competing with them.” — Carolyn McCall [13:34]
• Younger audiences: ITV chooses not to chase Gen Z with bespoke content, but instead attracts them through mass moments (football, Love Island).
  • “We’re not going to create content to chase them... it was a big content decision.” — Carolyn McCall [24:01]
  • Gen Z still constitute a large chunk of ITV’s audience for certain flagship shows.

Longevity & Creativity in TV Shows

• Formula for hits: Flagship reality/entertainment shows endure by balancing consistency with fresh ideas—an “80/20 rule” (80% familiar, 20% new each year).
  • “Once you've had a hit, you want to keep it.” — Carolyn McCall [15:55]
• Research insight: Familiarity breeds attachment, both in TV and in advertising (System1 “Compound Creativity” study).
  • “The more consistent a campaign was, the more people actually liked it.” — Jon Evans [16:27]

TV Advertising — Still the Most Effective Medium?

• TV’s unique impact: Decades of research show TV advertising delivers unmatched emotional resonance, brand uplift, and return on investment (ROI).
  • “TV is proven to be the most effective advertising channel and it also has the best return on investment.” — Carolyn McCall [20:34]
  • Internal ITV research: TV drives ~20% incremental web traffic, 10% more sales, and 25% higher brand enhancement [21:30]
• Performance v. brand:
  • Jon and Carolyn critique the rebranding of “performance marketing” as the only effective option—TV performs at scale, and truly effective marketing uses both brand and direct response (“outcomes and effectiveness”).
  • “Performance marketing is the biggest branding kind of stunt in history, isn't it?” — Jon Evans [20:25]
• Attention economy: Ubiquity & Lumen research adjusted CPM for attention, revealing TV to be the most cost-efficient channel—even for Gen Z.
  • “Even for Gen Z, they were consuming more TV advertising when you adjust for attention than any other channel.” — Jon Evans [22:49]
• Behavioral evidence:
  • Just Eat ad example—viewers claim “no one watches ads anymore”, but are demonstrably influenced by TV ads in real time, showing the power of emotional, memorable creative [24:01].

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Listening & learning on the ‘frontline’ as CEO:
  • “On my first flight as CEO, just went up to talk to the crew... I did it with them and I was just listening. I learned a lot.” — Carolyn McCall [07:08]
• Emotional power of storytelling:
  • On Mr. Bates vs. The Post Office: “The impact has been phenomenal. I think the reason it had that impact is because it told human stories.” — Carolyn McCall [09:52]
• Cross-mediated partnerships and competition:
  • “Everyone buys from ITV Studios... we are often partners with people and then we're also competing with them.” — Carolyn McCall [13:34]
• Repetition as creative strength:
  • “Yorkshire tea’s a great example of that. Great end line, very consistent. Repeat, repeat... repeat it 100%.” — Carolyn McCall [32:42]
• "Does what it says on the tin":
  • Classic product-driven creative is still memorable (Ronseal), showing less is often more [34:00].

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The 70 Greatest TV Ads: Emotional & Cultural Impact

• Ad legends: The Living Room Legends campaign identified the top 70 UK TV ads—average scores in the top 5% for emotional engagement.
  • “The average, I think, was over four stars... way above the average of most ads.” — Jon Evans [25:35]
• Standout ads (personal and industry):
  • Smash Martians (“The best thing about that whole evening wasn't speeches, it was the advertising reel.” — recounted by Carolyn McCall [26:03])
  • Skinhead “Points of View” (Guardian): taught context and prejudice, used as an educational tool [26:03]
  • John Lewis Christmas, for warmth and nostalgia;
  • Drink driving PSAs, for lasting cultural and behavioral impact (“They make you cry.” — Carolyn McCall [27:16])
  • Cadbury’s Gorilla—joyful and surprising (“It’s just so ridiculous and it is joyous.” — Carolyn McCall [28:20])
  • Compare the Meerkat—subverting category norms through entertainment and surprise [29:05]
  • ITV’s “Britain Get Talking”—national conversation on mental health, breaking the “fourth wall” with celebrity talent and measurable cultural impact [29:28]
  • Vinnie Jones, British Heart Foundation—life-saving CPR awareness (“They've actually measured the number of lives saved.” — Jon Evans [31:32])

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Innovations & The Future of TV Advertising

• Ad formats aligned with consumer behavior:
  • “Pause ads”—contextual ads shown when viewers pause content, capitalizing on in-moment attention [36:17]
  • Channel innovation: ITV Quiz repurposed a closing channel for interactive content, tripling audience numbers [36:27]
• Mass and precision:
  • ITV’s USP: simultaneous mass reach + increasingly personalized, data-driven targeting [36:40]
• Ad-funded entertainment:
  • Deep partnerships (e.g. Love Island x Boots), integrating sponsors into content and merchandise [37:40]
• SME accessibility:
  • Streaming (ITVX) and GenAI-driven creative enable smaller brands to participate in TV advertising, tested rigorously for effectiveness [35:15]
• Ongoing challenge: Maintaining creative standards and inspiring advertisers to prioritize quality, emotion, humor, and repetition—ingredients that endure even as platforms evolve.

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Important Timestamps

• [00:54] ITV’s 70th anniversary reflections
• [02:35] Carolyn’s vision for the Marketing Society and the central role of marketing
• [05:38] Leadership advice for aspiring CEOs
• [08:34] Balancing public service and commercial demands at ITV
• [09:52] Impact of Mr. Bates vs. The Post Office
• [12:01] Competing with streaming giants
• [13:34] Strategic multi-platform partnerships
• [15:55] Longevity and consistency in hit shows and campaigns
• [17:54] Relevance and ROI of TV advertising
• [21:30] Effectiveness data: TV’s boost to web traffic, sales, and brand
• [22:49] Adjusting CPM for attention — TV’s efficiency, even for Gen Z
• [24:01] “Nobody watches TV ads” — evidence to the contrary
• [25:35] Overview of the Living Room Legends report on the 70 best TV ads
• [26:03] Standout moments: Smash Martians, Skinhead “Points of View”
• [27:16] Drink driving campaign’s emotional impact
• [28:20] Cadbury’s Gorilla and the power of joyful surprise
• [29:28] ITV’s “Britain Get Talking” and societal impact
• [31:07] British Heart Foundation’s Vinnie Jones campaign
• [32:42] Classics that endure: Yorkshire Tea, Tesco, Ronseal
• [34:00] “Does what it says on the tin” — product simplicity
• [36:17] Innovations: Pause ads, ITV Quiz
• [37:40] Ad-funded programming and creative partnerships

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Conclusion

The episode offers an engaging, honest, and practical look at why TV advertising remains a powerhouse after seven decades—fuelled by emotion, reach, story, and continuing innovation. Carolyn McCall underscores the vital role of marketers in business leadership, the irreplaceable influence of television on culture and commerce, and why creativity, consistency, and listening to audiences matter more than ever.

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Notable Quotes

“We've had to do so much from a technology data advert. Advertising has changed beyond belief and that has kept us very much on our toes.”
— Carolyn McCall [01:31]

“Don't sit in an office listening to people present to you when you're a CEO... go out and talk to people right around the company... listen, listen, listen, and then act quickly.”
— Carolyn McCall [05:38]

“TV is proven to be the most effective advertising channel and it also has the best return on investment.”
— Carolyn McCall [20:34]

“Performance marketing is the biggest branding kind of stunt in history, isn't it?”
— Jon Evans [20:25]

“Drink driving... makes you cry. Because they often base them on true situations and stories... They've been very consistent.”
— Carolyn McCall [27:16]

“You don't forget that line, do you? ...repeat it 100%.”
— Carolyn McCall on Ronseal [33:55]

“Our job is to inspire advertisers to do what we've just been discussing... humor works, repetition works, romancing product does.”
— Carolyn McCall [34:37]

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Caroline McCool]

Foreign.

[John Evans]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the uncensored cmo. Now, did you know that this week happens to be 70 years since the very first advert went on TV? So my next guest could not be more Perfect. Dame Caroline McCool is the CEO of the nation's number one broadcaster. And we caught up to find out what impact TV advertising has had on business over those many years and what are some of the lessons we can learn from the all time greats of advertising that you can apply to your brand today. It's a great conversation. Here it is. This is such an honour to have you on the show. Thank you so much for joining us.

[Caroline McCool]

Such a pleasure.

[John Evans]

And it is 70 years, which is amazing. And I know ITV, you're doing lots to mark the occasion and celebrate it. How's, how's it feel in ITV at the moment to reach this mark?

[Caroline McCool]

I think everyone's extremely proud, but not, you know, not for the most obvious reasons about being able to be 70 years old. You know, it's more about what has been done over the 70 years. So, I mean, there's a lot of respect for the past, for Granada, for Yorkshire, for all the amazing kind of creative forces that have made ITV today. Because so many, you know, I always say we were born in the regions, so we've never had to work hard to be in the regions. We are a regional player that has become national. So very proud of that, that and I think also a lot of people are very proud of the transformation that ITV has been on, particularly in the last eight years where, you know, we've had to work really, really hard to kind of read what's going on and then stay as much abreast of that, if not ahead of that. But it's changing so fast in our world that, you know, if you just think 10 years ago, I mean, streaming was. No one was really talking about it very much. It was here, but it wasn't the way it is today. So we've had to do so much from a technology data advert. Advertising has changed beyond belief and that has kept us very much on our toes. So I think people are very proud of that. So I think people feel that we're fit for the future as much as being very happy about where we've come from.

[John Evans]

You write about the amount of change, isn't it with the rise of social media technology now with AI, that there's a lot happening. We'll get into a little bit more about that. I'd love to find out and pick your brains on that this is another year as well, of change because you've become the president of the Marketing Society, which I'm delighted to hear. I'd love to know what your vision might be for, you know, for the marketing industry as a whole as you become president.

[Caroline McCool]

Well, look, I mean, Sophie Devonshire is very much the kind of driving force of marketing society, and I enjoy very much working with her and with Craig, who, as you know, is chair. But they're fantastic team. I think the key thing there is to get marketers at the center of conversations in organizations, because I think they should be consulted on virtually everything, whether it's product, whether it's communication, consumer insight. You know, they really are kind of. They're where it's at, really. And so when I hear that marketers are often not consulted or they're not on boards or they're, you know, they're kind of doing a lot of the work. It's not just about the ad. Right. It's not just about the kind of coming in and saying, sign this off, you know, which in many companies, that can be the case. It starts with the consumer. And marketers are really at the sharp end of that. They're the ones who can see what's happening with consumers, how things are changing, working with agencies, working with others. It's such an amazing place to be. And so I think the Marketing Society very much wants to get that recognized, but also give marketers the confidence and the skills and the network in order for them to be able to be at the center of that. So, you know, some marketers want to be on board, some marketers want to be CEOs, where I think marketing society can help you do that. Some officers just want to be brilliant at their jobs and want to continue to be marketers. That's great, too. And I think the marketing side does all of those things really well. It's global, so it puts you in touch with lots of different ways of marketing. So I think it's. It's a very powerful force, actually, if harnessed.

[John Evans]

Well, it really is. And I think the statistics are something like less than 4% of people on boards have got any marketing experience. So the opportunity.

[Caroline McCool]

Right.

[John Evans]

Yeah, I know. I was. I had a guy, Chris Burgrave, he was a CMO of AB InBev, and he did some research on this and found, I think it was three and a half percent of board members today have got any marketing experience, which is incredibly low. The opportunity is, you know, incredible.

[Caroline McCool]

That is so low. I mean, I was lucky. I was brought up really. I started my career properly at the Guardian and we did a lot of product development in my early years. We did, you know, the Guide and Weekend Guardian when it first became magazine, and. And we launched a whole series of magazines with the observer and so on. And so product development and marketing just went hand in hand. That didn't sit. It worked with editorial to create those things. And so I always, I guess I grew up with marketing being quite powerful force and so I've never really ever thought any differently. So when I then became a CEO at EaseJet, you know, for me I stayed very close to marketing because I felt that that's how I would understand how to reposition the company, not just the brand.

[John Evans]

That makes complete sense, isn't it? You've been CEO of some very high profile companies and I'd love your advice on if anyone's listening and they want to make the jump into the CEO position, what advice would you give to be. To being a successful CEO?

[Caroline McCool]

Look, I think if you're going into a CEO role, research, research. So diligence, diligence research. Really find out what you're going into. I mean, I went into. I had already been a CEO at the Guardian Media Group, but I hadn't really been in a publicly listed company and I certainly hadn't had a 36% shareholder ever before. So I went in with my eyes wide open, knowing it was going to be extremely difficult. And I also didn't know how bad it was operationally, but I did know it was having significant issues. And that equips you better. You know, at least you're armed when you go in. And then I think early on, you know, you've got to kind of set your stall out, but also you've got to listen a lot. And the biggest tip, I think for me is don't sit in an office listening to people present to you when you're a CEO, because that's what everyone wants to do. They all want their time with you to tell you how they're doing and what they're doing and actually go out and talk to people right around the company in all the markets and listen, listen, listen, listen, and then act quickly. Once you know, and you've given it three or four months, then act quickly.

[John Evans]

I remember meeting the founder of Specsavers and she's absolutely, I think, amazing, absolutely. And I remember she still takes the bus to work and I'm like, why take the bus to work? But of course she takes the bus to work because she can overhear conversations about, you know, problems people having, ordering their glasses or. And of course she starts conversations. Everyone else on the bus, I just thought what a brilliant way.

[Caroline McCool]

Well, I've got it. You know, people say this quite a lot and I didn't realize that it was a thing, but I just instinctively on my first flight as CEO, just went up to talk to the crew and they started doing what we call the gash, which is the rubbish. And I just grabbed one end of the bag and I, I did it with them and I was just listening to them. They chat, chat, chat, they talk to the customers and passengers and as we go and, and it was amazing. And, and then I never stopped doing it. So there was not one flight, even as a normal passenger when I worked there that I didn't do the gash with the crew. And I, I loved it because I learned a lot. Passengers really liked it because they could stop me and say, oh by the way, you're doing that really well. Or you know, listen, you've really got to change this, that system doesn't work or whatever. So I just felt it was a fantastic learning opportunity for me and it stood me in very good stead because I would then go back and say, by the way, do you know, we need to look at this or whatever. So it's these little things sometimes that are quite transformational in an organization and.

[John Evans]

In terms of listening to the customer. You now oversee the nation's biggest commercial broadcaster. And I think something people may not realize of course is the kind of public service element because you're providing news, you're covering live sport as well as bring entertainment. It's a massive responsibility, isn't it, to kind of serve the nation in that kind of way.

[Caroline McCool]

I think, you know, it's a massive responsibility both to the viewers and to society actually, and also to your people because they have high expectations. Actually a lot of people work here because they have a sense of purpose and I think they do really want to work for a purpose driven organization. And yet we are very commercial. So you know that being proudly creative and proudly commercial is a, I use that word and it's kind of, it's so true because we are owned by shareholders actually, and yet we're public service broadcaster but we're a commercial one. So we have to fund ourselves. We're all ad funded. That's where, you know, all. Everything we do in M E in media and entertainment, which is ITV channels and streaming is funded by advertising. And that's about big thing because you've Got news and regional news, which we're extremely proud of. We do regional news, I think, better than anybody because we're very much part of communities. That's very much part of the public service remit. And then on the other end of the spectrum, we do love Ireland and I'm a celebrity and sometimes when I'm talking to people, they forget how much we do on this side. So a lot of the entertainment shows and reality shows fund news and they also fund things like Mr. Bates in the Post Office or I Fought the Law, which is on at the moment, which Sheridan Smith is just amazing.

[John Evans]

It's incredible.

[Caroline McCool]

Changed the law, you know, Double Jeopardy and. And also now the Hack, which has been sold to 50 countries. But, you know, when we, when. When that was commissioned by Kevin, he did not know. And Polly, they didn't know that was going to sell at all. Mr. Bates is the same. I mean, I think, you know, they thought, well, actually, we have to make this. Because it's a very powerful drama about Britain and it's a British story. And actually, no, it had been running for 20 years and until we brought. Until we showed that it did not get the traction with the government to change the law. So tv, I know, I work for tv, and so I'm bound to say this, but it's unbelievably powerful, that storytelling. And I think the reason it had that impact is because it told human stories. It didn't take it from. This is the Post Office doing a terrible thing. And this, you know, it went into. These are people that are affected. These are real people affected by this scandal. And the impact has been phenomenal.

[John Evans]

I remember that moment after watching Mr. Bates, when you then saw it debated in Parliament and just the sort of crossover from watching entertainment to actually seeing something, you know, change significantly. And the bit I didn't realize is that most of them are still waiting for compensation.

[Caroline McCool]

Yeah.

[John Evans]

You know, however many years later. And you think, well, would that have happened if it hadn't been for the drama? I doubt that a lot.

[Caroline McCool]

I doubt it because honestly, there were journalists, brilliant journalists covering this story for 20 years. You know, it actually broken a computer. Trade press, actually, that's where the story started. And then Sunday Times picked it up. But actually, this is what I'm saying. I think the impact is an emotional impact where people are like, how could this happen to ordinary people just trying to do their jobs? You know, so it shows the power of TV better than most things, actually.

[John Evans]

It really does. How do you now cause some of your competitors now are global streaming giants, aren't they? So something I, I love watching is the Tour de France. And I'm gutted that Tour de France won't be free to air next year.

[Caroline McCool]

I know, so sorry.

[John Evans]

And, and think the following year, I think the Tour de France actually starts in the UK as well. So we've got this moment where it's coming to our doorstep. We won't be able to see it. How do you compete with sort of, you know, really big global streaming giants that are paying a lot of money?

[Caroline McCool]

Yeah, I mean, look, it's harder and harder. I think that's why, you know, we have to make sure that every penny we have is well spent. I mean we have rebased completely our cost base. It's been very painful, it's been very difficult, but that's part of the transformation. We've invested where we think we're really going to get the return, which is itvx. You know, shareholders were really unhappy when we launched ITVX and spent 160 million quid a year for three years. But now it's just a no brainer, right? I mean you can't imagine not having a strong streaming service and it's doing very, very well. But, but I think the way we've had to do it is to be very focused on what we're really good at. We can't do everything. So entertainment, reality, live sport, news, drama, we focus on those things. That's what we do. And the Tour de France is unfortunately not a listed event. So we really focus our energy on getting the World cup, getting all of those big, big national moments. That's what we focus our attention on. That doesn't mean that we don't do, you know, we're doing some, you know, we do, we do a lot on racing, which is not listed, horse racing. We do it really well. But our, you know, we will always focus on those listed events. Make sure we try and get those. Yeah, because the streamers can't go for them. And we collaborate well with BBC when we do that.

[John Evans]

Well, the collaboration is something that I think people on the outside don't necessarily realize because one of your biggest advertisers is Sky. One of the biggest Netflix, you know, dramas is one that you've made, isn't it? So there's an incredible kind of ecosystem of entertainment.

[Caroline McCool]

It's an interesting one because actually you have to take the like Netflix buying drama from us, that's from our studios business and so that's quite interesting. So with Rivals, for instance, which is on. Disney plus was a breakout show, you know, last year, and Series two is coming up now is, you know, people were saying to me, why didn't you get it? Or lots of people internally were saying, well, why didn't we get Rivals? Wasn't Rivals on itv? Well, bluntly, we can afford that. We have to be really careful about the number of how many dramas we do. And if we'd have done Rivals, we would have probably not done two others. Right. So it was a big blockbuster show and was probably double the price that we would normally pay for a drama. That doesn't mean the dramas are not really good, just means they're a different kind of drama with different. Different kind of sets, if you like. So, I mean, and also, that's what ITV Studios is there for. ITV Studios is there really, as a diversification of revenue for ITV so that it makes money selling to other FTAs around the world. I mean, the BBC is a good client. Netflix, Amazon, Disney, you name it, Everyone buys from ITV Studios. And so there's that interesting thing where we are often partners with people and then we're also competing with them. And, you know, Google's a great example of that. You know, we're on YouTube and, you know, because we know that we need to reach that under 25 audience and we've really changed our strategy on that because we. We recognize they might not come back to itvx, but they are watching it and we're able to sell the advertising and yet we're competing with them for advertising. So it's a very complicated world.

[John Evans]

It. Isn't it fascinating? I find it absolutely fascinating how that all works. Now. One of something you're really famous for is some big blockbuster series like I'm A Celebrity, Love Islands. I had to check my notes on this, but I'm a celebrity over 20 years.

[Caroline McCool]

I know. Aren't they amazing?

[John Evans]

I had to go and look at that again. I think Anton Dec have done a great job of not looking like they've aged at all.

[Caroline McCool]

They don't look like they've aged. And their sense of humor is never far away. Do you know what I mean? They. They keep this kind of bullion and this fantastically funny kind of way of working and they just. I mean, it's. They are. They have fantastic chemistry to this day. So, yeah, that, honestly, I'm A Celebrity is one of our most successful shows still.

[John Evans]

It is, isn't it?

[Caroline McCool]

Yeah.

[John Evans]

What are the. What are the secrets to having that kind of longevity of a hit running for so many years.

[Caroline McCool]

Well, that's a really interesting question. I mean you, I think you, you, you have to be careful not to do too much with it. So, you know, you can do spin off shows. We do, we, we do a spin off show with I'm a Celebrity. We do that with Love Island All Stars, for instance. You've got to be careful not to overdo that. I think you, you have to nurture your flagship shows and you've got to keep them fresh. I mean, you know, it depends on who's doing them and how they're being done and you know, that's what you do. And also it's not easy getting a hit. So once you've had a hit, you want to keep it.

[John Evans]

Yeah, it's really hard getting a hit. We did this research actually last year at System One called Compound Creativity and it was fascinating. It was only a three year, I think it was a three or five year period. We looked at the, the data in, but we found that the more consistent a campaign was, the more people actually liked it. So familiarity breeds contentment, in this case.

[Caroline McCool]

Contentment.

[John Evans]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So actually we laugh at jokes that are familiar. You know, we, we have a stronger emotional bond with celebrities that we see more often. So I can see why that works. And there's a, we sort of landed this 8020 rule that you want to keep it 80% the same and about 20% new. So you kind of freshen it up every year, but not change. The reason why everyone kind of loves watching it.

[Caroline McCool]

Well, the big thing is, I mean, you know, recurring drama is like that too. So it's not just on the entertainment side. You know, people love seeing something like unforgotten. So where we'd get a, you know, we'd be worried is if we're changing the lead character in something, you have to work quite hard at making sure that audiences are going to respond well to the lead character who's not the same lead character. So it's complicated. It's complicated. Everything's complicated. I mean, life is in media and creativity is, is quite a, it's quite an interesting, complicated world really.

[John Evans]

Now we talked at the beginning about how much has changed in the last 10 years. So of the advent of streaming, we've got social media taking a lot more kind of share a share of ad spends. How relevant is TV advertising today compared to, I mean, because we love to look back at the classics, don't we, from 10, 20 years ago?

[Caroline McCool]

Yeah.

[John Evans]

How relevant is it today?

[Caroline McCool]

Look, when I joined eight years ago, I. And I remember I'd been a client at EasyJet, so I was, you know, we were. We were obviously buying quite a lot of advertising. But I, you know, what I found when I got to EasyJet, because it's digital, you know, it was digital already. No paper. No paper, tickets, etc. Was that they were spending a huge amount of money on digital, you know, whatever that was. But digital advertising at that time. So that's a long time ago. That's 16 years ago when I started EasyGen. And I just remember going, I don't understand this. The doll wasn't shifting, like we weren't selling more seats. You know, the branding was terrible. I mean, it was like a camel go to Egypt, 30 quid. I mean, it was really, you know, quite shocking, some of the advertising. Funny but shocking. And we brought, you know, there was no marketing direct, actually, which says quite a lot. It was like a. And so I brought in Peter Duffy, actually, and he. We really, together and with his team and with the agency vccp, we revolutionized how we did marketing, including how we. So we're still doing digital, but we reapportioned. We. For the first time ever, we used tv. So I don't think they'd ever used TV before that, not properly. And it really, really worked. And so we got the emotional message across. So there was, it was not just transactional. Here's, here's a camel, here's a price, here's a clog, here's Holland. You know, it was much more kind of come and fly with us, right? It's, it's, it's, it's going to be great value, but you, you're going to get some fun. The crew are great. You know, it had that emotional resonance. It was very, very, very successful. You know, it was a brilliant campaign and to this day, I think they do a lot of that. I got here and I just thought, you know, as I can talk as a client rather than just as a marketer from the past and start talking about really being proactive and front foot and not being, not being couch, not being overwhelmed by all this overwhelming kind of programmatic perform, you know, being, being, you know, calling programmatic performance. That's an adjective, right? It's not always performance, right? It's a certain kind of advertising. It has a place, but it's not the only thing you should be doing. So I feel we've really got on the front foot for tv. And I also think the pendulum has swung back a bit.

[John Evans]

I think it really has.

[Caroline McCool]

I really do.

[John Evans]

I think performance marketing is the biggest branding kind of stunt in history, isn't it? Amazing stunt somehow, like making everything else look like it's not performing.

[Caroline McCool]

It's not performing.

[John Evans]

Come on, everyone.

[Caroline McCool]

Yeah, I don't use that, we don't use that terminology here because it's, it's, you know, everything should be performing. And that's why we've put a lot of money into outcomes, into effectiveness. And, you know, TV is proven to be the most effective advertising channel and it also has the best return on investment. So when I say it's the most effective, people say, yeah, but it's really expensive. I say, no, actually, it will give you the best return on investment. We're never going to say only use tv. I mean, some, some advertisers should only use TV actually, but, but we would always say use it with other media. And, you know, we've done some internal research which shows very clearly that it drives web traffic by about an incremental 20%. It drives sales by about an additional 10%. And it really, really resonates for the brand. You know, that brand enhancement becomes, you know, is increased by something like 25%. So, you know, there's ample evidence. I just think if you're in an agency and you're young and you're not watching as much telly as you were and you're doing a lot of social. That is something that we have to address. We've got to make sure that young planners, young buyers understand how powerful a medium it is.

[John Evans]

Yeah, the data that absolutely hit me through the eyes was last year. Ubiquiti and Lumen did the study looking at the amount of attention different platforms get, and then they took the CPM and adjusted the attention, weighted it. So I'll try and quote it correctly here, but they were looking at TV typically £8 CPM versus social media advertising at say £2.20. Huge difference. You look at that and go, wow, TV is almost four times the price of digital. They then adjusted it for attention, actual attentive seconds. They were measuring how much of the ad was actually viewed and then suddenly the TV went down to £1 19 and the social advertising went up to 3 pound 20. So the exact conclusion got flipped based on, based on measuring for attention. So as soon as you realize that, and then it takes a few seconds.

[Caroline McCool]

That shouldn't be surprising, should it, given the context, how you're watching? And given. Yeah, I mean, that shouldn't be surprising, but it's a great, you know, it's great ubiquity did that.

[John Evans]

Well the kick in the data. I remember I saw Peter Field was plenty of Thinkbox last year was he then said well of course we're looking at the national population so everyone's nodding along going oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But what about Gen Z? Even for Gen Z they were consuming more TV advertising when you adjust for attention than any other channel, even for Gen Z. Going back to your young bio. Yeah, the funniest example because of course.

[Caroline McCool]

Gen Z you say Gen Z Gen. Oh yeah, it is Gen Z. I was going to say Gen Z. That's not right. They. They come in. So 28, 25 to 28% of I'm a celebrity viewers. Gen Z. Right. Love island, maybe 50% live sport. Huge numbers, huge proportion of our audiences on football will be them. So it's not like we don't get Gen Z. Gen Z, we actually get them, but we don't get them all the time and that's what we have to adjust to. And we took a really important strategic decision decision which is we're not going to create content to chase them because we felt that was putting money down a black hole because very difficult to know what kind of content they're going to come to. So it was a bit. That was a big content decision.

[John Evans]

I think my favorite bit of research I've ever seen on this was. I think it was a three or four years ago. I think you commissioned it. It was like a bit like a goggle box experiment filming people watching adverts and there was this funny bit where you got this couple on the sofa and they're joking with each other and no one watches TV ads anymore. And then the Just Eat ad comes on, comes on and the guy literally sings to his girlfriend. Like did somebody say. And then they go on their phone and they order Just eat. And they continue going. No one watches adverts anymore.

[Caroline McCool]

They're big. They're big TV fans. Just.

[John Evans]

Yeah, indeed. It's funny. Anyway, talking about TV advertising, we've just launched this new report together, haven't we? Living Room Legends which if anyone's watching is there is. Is on the. Is I have to say on my table. On the table. I always forget that things can be physical these days. We do these reports then suddenly these boxes arrive in the office. Oh, we actually made.

[Caroline McCool]

But I'm. That's physical. Actually I think it's brilliant because. Yeah, because it's. It really does need flicking through. You do need to read a bit.

[John Evans]

You do. And it. Yeah.

[Caroline McCool]

Not scroll.

[John Evans]

It adds, doesn't it? It adds something to it. Yeah, but this, I mean, I remember having lunch with Kate Waters, the amazing Kate Waters last year, and she was saying, John, next year, 70 years of TV advertising. And the idea she came up with, let's try and work out the 70 best TV ads over 70 years. I'm like, that is audacious. Right? That's going to take some debate. And there was some debate to get to it, but there's some amazing lessons. I mean, firstly, just recognizing how much amazing work is out there. And we put it all through the system, one test and the average, I think was over four stars. So, you know, fantastic. Absolutely. Almost, you know, top of the charts.

[Caroline McCool]

But actually that's way above, isn't it, the average of most ads?

[John Evans]

Yeah, yeah. So, so the, the. We had a broad panel coming up with 70 and so four star would put it in the top 5% of all ads that we measure. But the important thing with that is we measure emotional response. So these ads made people feel, you know, feel happiness, felt, feel surprise and so on. So they really worked. But I thought I'd ask you about a few of them because one of your own actually appeared in this, didn't it?

[Caroline McCool]

I was so pleased about that when I saw it on the real. I mean that, you know, a lot of people said when we showed the ads, we did a mashup of the 70 and played it at the big event that we had. I remember Janet Street Porter saying on Loose Women, oh, my God. The best thing about that whole evening wasn't speeches, she said, it was the advertising reel. And she said my favorite one was the Martian one with Smash. And she started doing all the voices and you know, that's the. That was really very funny and I was really pleased to see Points of View skinhead on there. It was my first year at the Garden. It was quite a formative time. I was in planning and I remember them working on this ad and I remember going to see some of the rough cuts and stuff like this bmp and it had the most profound effect, actually. It was like about context. It was about bias, prejudice, it was about perspective. It was really good. And I have to say we. I used to work in the department that you used to have to send it out on request and nearly every school would ask for it to, to be able to teach people about that. So, no, it had the most amazing effect. It was great ad, right?

[John Evans]

Incredible. We talked about advertising being emotional. What, what advert or what campaign has created the biggest emotional response for you.

[Caroline McCool]

Do you know, over time, I would say. I know everyone will say the John Lewis ads and the Christmas ads, and I agree with that. They're very lovely and they're very fluffy and soft and they're. They remind you of your family and nostalgia. They're lovely. But for me, it's drink driving because it makes you want to. It makes you cry. Because they often base them on true situations and stories. And if you look over the years, you know, they've been very consistent, even though, obviously drink driving, I think, has reduced quite a lot because of that campaign. It's very powerful. I mean, they don't hold back. Do you know what I mean? And it jolts you. So I think that's one of the most impactful in. In an emotional way, because it's about families, it's about friends, it's about peer pressure, it's about, you know, it's all the real things in life. And they've been consistent. They've done a, you know, very consistent campaign over years.

[John Evans]

Now, of course, itv, you're famous for entertainment as well. I just wonder, something else that came out in the report was the importance of entertaining, putting on the show, making people laugh. Is there any ad that comes to mind that's really, really made you laugh?

[Caroline McCool]

I do you know that Cadbury's out with the gorilla? I mean, I know we've got. We've got the gorilla. It's got to be. We love. I don't know why, but it's just so ridiculous and it is joyous, you know, it's like a. It's. If you like concerts and music and it just. It brings you joy. And that caption, you know, which is about joy, it's just quite funny. And there's probably hundreds of others. Right. But I mean, that. That it's a bit of a standout ad, I think.

[John Evans]

Yeah, totally.

[Caroline McCool]

Because you don't expect it from Cadbury's. That's the. When it's an unexpected correlation, if you like, you kind of sit up and go, what's that got to do with chocolate? But actually, chocolate can bring you joy.

[John Evans]

Well, that was one of our findings in the report, actually. Is that so many of the success, like the meerkats, like, imagine.

[Caroline McCool]

Yes, yes.

[John Evans]

You're selling insurance.

[Caroline McCool]

Yeah.

[John Evans]

And, you know, how do you end up with meerkats? But that surprise, breaking the cashflow convention is a key part.

[Caroline McCool]

Fantastically important, I think. Yeah.

[John Evans]

You mentioned the drink driving campaign and I think impacting culture is something We've talked about any campaigns that jump out at you that have changed culture or done something for society.

[Caroline McCool]

I know this is an ITV campaign, so I apologize for that.

[John Evans]

You are allowed ITV examples.

[Caroline McCool]

Yes. I don't apologize really, because I think it's had such an enormous impact is years ago we started talking about mental health because we do a lot of programs where we have to watch mental health. So we have a lot of participants on programs where we have to look after their mental health because some of them put in, you know, difficult situations and so on. And so we, we started thinking about how do we do this and how do we do it in an ITV way where we're not preachy and we're not telling people what to do. And we came up with Britain Get Talking. And it is so powerful partly because all our talent got behind it. So all our on screen personalities and characters got behind it and they broke the fourth wall. So they went direct to the audience, which is very unusual. And so you had Ant and Dec or you had Holly or you had Susanna, you had just this range, o', Leary, I mean, name them, anybody, they all got behind. It was quite extraordinary. And it had such an enormous impact on people, which was just talk, you know, really, you know, we had a lot of experience with calm before that, which is the campaign against living miserably about suicide. So we really got behind it and it's had enormous impact. So there's millions of conversations now which we track being had about, you know, just talk, talk to somebody, talk to your mum, talk to your friend, talk to, talk to people, talk to your teacher, whatever it might be. And that has been hugely impactful and we've sustained it. So it's something that we don't see as going away. It's something that we will continue to do.

[John Evans]

That's wonderful. That is, I mean, one I know you also had a hand in latterly, which is one of my all time favorites is the Vinnie Jones.

[Caroline McCool]

Yeah.

[John Evans]

British Heart Foundation.

[Caroline McCool]

I mean, so powerful.

[John Evans]

How clever is that? You know, using, I mean, him playing the hard man, kind, kind of like doing it. Doing a CPR to Staying Alive is brilliant. And I was chatting to Nils Leonard about this and he was saying there were people on a 999 call actually doing CPR, you know, actually repeating Staying Alive.

[Caroline McCool]

Yeah.

[John Evans]

And I think when I had Vicky McGuire on the podcast maybe a year or so ago and she said they've actually measured the number of lives saved because of that.

[Caroline McCool]

Yeah. So fantastic. No, it was. I remember, I remember Them talking to me about that, going on air and saying it's one of the best things they've ever seen. So you're right that that's been hugely impactful.

[John Evans]

Well, one of the building on the British Heart foundation, one of the things that really struck me, I think it's a couple of years ago when Christian Eriksen had the cardiac arrest in the Euros, was, I think within about 72 hours, you would add an ad.

[Caroline McCool]

Yeah.

[John Evans]

Responding to that, telling people what they should do in that situation. Huge impact, you assume it takes. I mean, back in the day, when I was. When I used to buy, you know, TV, it was like at least 12 weeks.

[Caroline McCool]

Yes. But you turn around. So I think that's a kind of changing a perception, isn't it, about long lead times and stuff like that. So I think the agency Saatchi's phoned our team, they got it on and they actually even got it on before the Denmark Belgium game. So maximum impact and obviously for, you know, for a very good cause, so can be incredible.

[John Evans]

Very, very, very, very, very powerful. And one of the other things that came through the book, which actually links to the work we did last year with compound creativity, is the importance of repeating a good idea.

[Caroline McCool]

Yeah.

[John Evans]

I just wondered, what are the campaigns that stand out to you that have stood the test of time, that get better and better over the years?

[Caroline McCool]

Well, I mean, we love tea, don't we?

[John Evans]

We do.

[Caroline McCool]

We're both drinking our tea. Yorkshire, she's a great example of that. Great, great end line, you know, very consistent. Repeat, repeat. I think Tesco's brilliant. Every little helps. I think they, you know, they've gone back to that tagline when it has really mattered. I think that's. That's a very effective example of that. Warburton's, McCain's. You know, there's lots of advertisers that, you know, that know what they're doing and they know that it works and then they know, you know, that. That, you know, a lot of people find it very hard to do an end line. An end line, I think, is one of the most difficult things you can come up with. And I say that as a former client. I think if you get one and, you know it works and it resonates with your consumer base, then repeat it 100%.

[John Evans]

Yeah. Repetition is your friend in this case, isn't it? Maybe the last point that came out as well, which, which is, I think, a tougher nut to crack, this one is romancing the product. It's very easy to fall in the trap of I must tell everybody everything there is to know about what I'm selling. But there's been a few examples of brands that have like creatively found ways of kind of communicating their products.

[Caroline McCool]

Yeah, so. So which is your favorite one of that?

[John Evans]

Well, my favorite is Ron Seal. I mean, I know this is old. I know this is old.

[Caroline McCool]

It does what it says on the tin. You don't forget that line, do you?

[John Evans]

You know, you would still say it today.

[Caroline McCool]

And they paint the door, don't they, 30 years later. It's incredible.

[John Evans]

It says on the tin.

[Caroline McCool]

So I don't know whether this is Romancing Jude or whether this is Romancing Adidas, but that hey Jude ad, which was long and beautifully crafted, beautifully filmed and it really made you go all tingly before the World cup or the Euros. Actually, not the World cup, it was the Euros last year. I think that is a good example of romancing the product.

[John Evans]

Yeah, I think that ticked a lot of those boxes and the emotion was in there. Cultural moment as well. That was when hey Jude was becoming the adopted by England fans, wasn't it?

[Caroline McCool]

Yeah, everyone started, everyone started singing. Everyone was singing it. So cultural moment. Yeah, so that's, that's good for me. That was a very, very beautiful ad. Yeah. And I mean, you have to say one of our jobs is to inspire advertisers to do what we've just been discussing. You know, all of these things make good advertising and sadly not enough advertising is to that kind of standard. It doesn't have to be expensive, but humor works, repetition works, romancing product does. You know, there's all these things come together and you don't have to use all of those ingredients, just have to use some of them. You can make great advertising.

[John Evans]

Well, this is a surprising thing I've discovered working with you guys. ITV is how many small and medium sized businesses can afford to do TV advertising. I mean, they can as well. Yeah, they can now, which is quite a surprise.

[Caroline McCool]

And that's because of itvx.

[John Evans]

Right.

[Caroline McCool]

So that, that's the route in, I think for a lot of advertisers. And then I think actually we're doing quite a lot of Gen AI, you know, which we test and we trial and we research and all of that. But it does make it easier for SMEs to come in. So it's a good reason, really good.

[John Evans]

Point actually, because we've been working together on making sure that Gen AI created adverts hit the standard by testing on System One to make sure it delivers the same standard as everything else. Yeah, yeah, there you go. Maybe to finish up on then, what does the future of TV advertising. We're celebrating 70 years. What are the big innovations that are going to keep T TV relevant to the next 70?

[Caroline McCool]

Look, I think they're going to be continuing innovations. I mean, who thought of pause ads? You know, I mean, I, I had to really get them to explain to me, what exactly are you doing with that? But it's working, you know, just explain.

[John Evans]

That because I thought that's absolutely genius. And why did no one think of this?

[Caroline McCool]

That's quite clever. This is so clever pause, that is when, you know, lots of people pause in the middle to go and do something or to chat or whatever, to take phone call. It's, it's. You can advertise. So instead of it just being frozen shot, you put an ad on it. So Brigitte's are doing that now with us, so they've taken over all of Paul's ads. Fantastic. So then when you turn around, you think, oh, I must book my next holiday because I fancy going, you know, it's clever. And another good example of innovation is it's not quite pure advertising. But we closed ITVB and we're going to enhance ITV2 as a result of ITVB, which we did. But then some genius internally worked with the commercial team and said, why don't we try doing ITV Quiz, which will get a lot of advertising. We'll get a sponsor. People love quizzes. We've launched that. So we, we didn't close B, we actually made it ITV Quiz. It's doing three times better than ITVB was doing. It's doing really well. And that's a kind of really clever innovation, which is, okay, you might not need, you might be able to move some of that content away, but what can we do with a channel? So I think innovation will just take lots of different forms. I think for itv, though, given digital switchover, will not be for some time. We will always be able to offer these mass audiences, which are rare and I think we're the only ones commercially that can do it and we do it at scale. And the combination therefore, of doing mass simultaneous reach, as well as doing very highly personalized and targeted advertising and increasingly personalized as we go forward with all the data we have is a really fantastic usp. And then I would add to that that, you know, we've talked about some of the creative partnerships. You know, we have deep relationships with many, many advertising. You can't do it with all advertisers but you can do it with many advertisers. And we do ad funded entertainment, as we call it, ad funded programming. We do a lot with M and S, we've done that with Flutter, we've done a program called Champions and it works brilliantly for them. So you know, all that very where you get deep we do with Boots, with Love island, you know, we put their products in the villa, but we also have merchandise in store. So there's a whole merchandising opportunity. I mean, I think we do that better than anyone else really. And we can do all of those things. So we offer a manifold really, I suppose, of opportunity for clients and agencies.

[John Evans]

Great. Carolyn, thank you so much. It's been great to talk about and been been so much fun working on this together and really enjoyed it. And thank you for all your wisdom advice.

[Caroline McCool]

Thank you for inviting me on at such an important time for us.

[John Evans]

Absolute pleasure. Thank you for doing this.

[Caroline McCool]

Pleasure.

[John Evans]

Thank you very much for listening or watching Uncensored cmo. I hope you enjoyed that. If you did, please do hit the subscribe button wherever you get your podcast. If you're watching, hit subscribe there as well. I'd also love to get a review. Reviews make a big difference on other people discovering the show, so please do leave a review wherever you get your podcast. If you want to contact me, you can do I'm over on X UncensoredCMO or on LinkedIn where I'm under my own name, John Evans. Thanks for listening and watching. I'll see you next time.