Craig Bromers (2:16)

I think, John, we need to backtrack a little bit and remember what we were trying to do with this campaign, we were trying to partner with the it girl of 2025 to create the it genes campaign of 2025. I think it's safe to say mission accomplished. When you cast someone like Sydney Sweeney, you know that it's going to be in the spotlight. Sidney is a cross generational talent. She appeals to both genders. She is someone that dresses up. There is not a red carpet that doesn't love Sydney Sweeney. But she also feels like the girl next door and very rel. She loves to work on cars, she loves to be in the outdoors. And there is no doubt that she is the it girl in the US in 2025 and probably after this campaign now, the it girl of the globe. And so we knew that this was going to get some response. Obviously, the response was beyond our wildest dreams. And it was certainly the most fascinating eight weeks in my professional career.

John Evans (3:22)

I can well imagine. I can well imagine. Was there anything in the build up to this that kind of gave you any indication of how it was going to blow up in the way that it did?

Craig Bromers (3:32)

Well, I think again, having Sydney in the campaign was already going to cause a sensation and did cause a sensation. Right. We'll probably unpack it more in just a moment, but the day of the announcement of the campaign, our Stock went up 25% just on the announcement alone that Sidney was part of this campaign. And so people were immediately fascinated. How did they get her? What is the creative behind this? What is the message behind that? So, you know, for the first three or four days of the campaign, it really was through this unbelievably positive perception of boy, American Eagle was able to partner with Sydney Sweeney. They're bringing their A game for this fall season. And then things got up a little bit spicier. Right. So we knew that again, casting Sydney was going to create a sensation. And it did. Right out of the. Right out of the gate.

John Evans (4:25)

Now, what was the point? Because, I mean, I started following this quite closely because it was fascinating to watch it unfold. And you're quite right. For the first three days, it appears entirely positive. As you say, big news, you collaborating with Sydney. Share price up. And then suddenly this conversation switched into a wild territory of racism, eugenics. And he just went down this dark path. What happens to cause a sudden sort of reaction in that way?

Craig Bromers (4:52)

I am still a little bit dumbfounded because I think the claims are absurd. And I think a vast majority of Americans understand that the claims are absurd. It was always about the genes. And this was Sydney's story in her genes. And of course, we always are telling new stories and will continue to tell new stories focused around genes. And so it was a curveball that we didn't see coming and certainly created another interesting narrative in the launch of the campaign.

John Evans (5:29)

Yeah, I suppose it was the pun, wasn't it? The twist on genes and genes that caused that. Was there any indication of that in any of the testing you did before that might have suggested people might take that.

Craig Bromers (5:40)

Not at all.

John Evans (5:40)

In that kind of route?

Craig Bromers (5:41)

No, not. Not at all. And again, based on what we now know, right, Customer performance, business performance, advertising performance, I think that's how a vast majority of people took the campaign. This was always about the jeans, will always be about the jeans. And that's how most people saw it. But of course, it went into something much broader and much bigger than.

John Evans (6:08)

Yeah, I put it through our system, one test, actually, just to see, because we measure like, emotional response and why people feel how they feel. And it was really interesting because it plays out exactly actually, what you just said there. We picked up about 10% negativity. Now, by the way, the average negativity on any campaign is about 6%. So just a little bit more negativity than normal. But in the comments, and we've tested hundreds and hundreds of people, you know, through we've, we've test. I tested a number, a number of times actually, just to make sure this is correct. I didn't get anything about racism or eugenics or even objectification. The, the worst I saw was Sydney looks a bit aloof in it or is a bit slightly weird construct. That was it. On the positive side, a lot of people going, sydney Sweeney, lots of confidence, looks great in their jeans. They look comfortable to wear. So certainly from our point of view, and we were testing a big, you know, big sample size, we couldn't see anything that connected back to the, to the backlash.

Craig Bromers (7:05)

John. I'm not surprised to hear that at all. And again, I think that's how most people took the campaign. But there were clearly a lot of conversation in social media and in the mainstream press that took it into. Into other territory.

John Evans (7:19)

But I think this is. I think there's two interesting things here. One is why are people doing that? And then second thing is, what do you do when it happens? Right. So any hypothesis on why people chose to sort of like misinterpret the campaign or use it for their kind of political commentary?

Craig Bromers (7:34)

I really don't because again, I can't be clear. The campaign was always about the jeans. And so I'm actually not sure to this day of why people went there, but I think the reaction to that reaction is where American Eagle potentially won this gene's season. Because I think that is a really interesting story.

John Evans (7:59)

Exactly. I mean this is what I found fascinating because so many brands tend to sort of like apologize, capitulate, clarify what they meant. And actually what you did is you, you held very firm to the plan you had in place. How did it feel? Because it can't have been a nice position to be in. And I imagine you must have got a lot of, you know, a lot of people who work here obviously would have seen what was going on, what was the decision making like internally when the sort of backlash started and how did you then respond to that point?

Craig Bromers (8:29)

What's funny John, because as I was going through this experience it almost felt like I was living in alternate universes because on one side we're looking at very encouraging business performance, customer performance, and as I just mentioned, advertising performance. Obviously the stock market had reacted quite positively to the campaign as well. And so, so those are the real time facts. That's, that's data points that we're looking at feeling quite confident about what we have. But in the other universe you're hearing all the noise in social media, the mainstream press is beginning to pick it up as well. And so the two universes didn't honestly compute in my mind. Like I just didn't quite understand how these were connected. And it was, it was an out of body experience to read some of the so called expert advice that we were getting from external people again in the press or in social media of how to react and what to do. And I actually think that we landed in a very good place with this campaign because we actually trusted what was true and hard fact. I will say I had 1000% support from our CEO, 1000% support from our board. And so that gave me confidence as well. And what we did instead of racing to react is we actually just sat back for a second and gathered more data and understood what was going on with the business and with the campaign before we made our first and only statement of the entire period. And that feels anthemic to what other people said that we should do, we should come out and react to do or clarify or whatever it was. We didn't see that there was anything to clarify like that people were really into this campaign and there was one and only one day of net negative social sentiment and that was the Monday after the launch. So we launched this on a Wednesday, the Monday which you're referencing is kind of when things got a bit spicier. But throughout this entire experience, any assertion that says this campaign was swamped by negative sentiments is patently untrue. And that was also a bit surprising of some of the mainstream press that you were reading, especially in the advertising trades. This was things that they could have easily run themselves. That's why it was surprising that, that some of those articles were actually so harsh when the data that we were saying was, was quite positive.

John Evans (11:20)

Yeah, you're so right. Actually. Like, we like to, we like to really have a go at brands, don't we? And then, and then everyone sort of follows on like a big pile on, but like Cracker Barrel, actually, I have to say I've got a lot of sympathy for them because, you know, as soon as they got some sort of backlash and in fact a lot of it apparently was bot driven as well. And then suddenly once one person criticizes it feels that everyone like follows in behind this herd mentality just comes and it becomes, you know, life its own. But it sort of reminds me that the old advice that Twitter is not real life. I mean, it's X now, but you know, we've got to distinguish between what blows up on social media and becomes just a reaction to the reaction versus actually what do our consumers think and feel who are ultimately the most important. So credit to you actually, because it's good to see you holding the line and maybe not doing what I think a lot of comms consultants might have advised you to do, actually. Because if I think back to crisis I've been in, you know, get on the front foot, react quickly, but I think actually pausing and going, let's watch this play out and hold the line is credit to you.

Craig Bromers (12:20)

I think it worked really well for us and that honestly allowed other voices to be heard. And I think more and more people seem to be reacting that this is a little bit absurd. You know, I can't imagine a brand as rich in tradition as American Eagle would set out to do something that would, would have these kinds of claims against it. And so, you know, Wednesday we launched. That's the incredible reaction in the stock market. Monday was probably the spiciest day. And then fast forward to Friday, which is roughly eight, nine days after launch. We came out with our one and only statement, working with Sydney's team and it was beloved. I mean, people really liked our response. And of course the response was to clarify that it has always been about the jeans and to make sure that people understood that we, we were going to execute this campaign as originally intended. Because I knew the very next day that this campaign would be on the sphere in Las Vegas and that was going to create a stir as well. And so I think that was an important day for us, a well received day for us. And I think that we were able then to execute other things that we had always intended.

John Evans (13:42)

How many of the comments did you read yourself? I mean, your LinkedIn became swamped after a while as well, didn't it? With commentary?

Craig Bromers (13:48)

Yeah, you know what, I actually turned it off because I needed to actually isolate noise from fact. And to your point, I was confused, I was disappointed, I was frustrated when I was reading some of the initial barrage of LinkedIn comments on, again that, that Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. And I just said, you know what, Craig, you don't need to listen to this right now. Because we knew what we were intending to execute. We knew that the initial business results were quite encouraging. And I'm just not going to play that game right now. I'm just going to focus on what we need to focus on. We need to focus on executing the campaign at the highest level possible. I need to focus on being the best leader possible for not only our marketing team, but the best leader possible for our corporation. And so everyone really understood what we were trying to execute. And we needed to be the best possible partners to Sydney Sweeney. Because the reality is this was always supposed to be a talent partnership. And to her credit, she stuck with us. And, you know, you better be damn certain that we were going to stick with her. And it soon became very apparent that not only does Sydney Sweeney have great jeans, Sydney Sweeney can sell great jeans. Because that sales were unbelievably encouraging out of the gate.

John Evans (15:10)

Well, I'd love to talk about that because that, of course, everyone was going, you know, it's either going to be the death of you or it's going to be the making of you. I'd love to know what was the reality in terms of sales, you know, interest in the brands that followed from the campaign.

Craig Bromers (15:23)

Yeah. So as a publicly traded company, when we came out with our Q2 earnings on September 3rd, which is roughly six weeks after the launch of the campaign, we indicated that their initial results from Q3 were quite encouraging. A couple things that your listeners should hear. We gained 1 million new customers in the course of those six weeks. That's unheard of. Unprecedented.

John Evans (15:48)

Yeah.

Craig Bromers (15:48)

So obvious.

John Evans (15:49)

What would a normal base of customer be?

Craig Bromers (15:51)

A normal basis is much lower. And so this is an unprecedented run for us. We also Saw the highest brand demand for American eagle in 20 years. Think about that for a second. That's amazing. Things that Sydney wore were selling out. Either, you know, first day or first week. I mean, things were, were, were blowing out. We saw a double digit traffic increase. And so you're seeing all of this, you know, very positive results coming through the campaign. Now listen, you and I both know a brand campaign is going to be judged over a longer period of time, right? And so that first six week period was by far the most fascinating, by far the most intensive. But this continues, right? This, this was always supposed to be a brand and business reset. It has been. And now the work of the work continues. The work of the work to shift the buzz into new customers and to shift those new customers into repeat customers. But there is no doubt that the initial reaction of the campaign is beyond our wildest dreams.

John Evans (16:51)

Yeah, you mentioned being on the sphere in Las Vegas, which is kind of cool. Have you worked out how much of the reach you got was actually due to the reaction versus the media buy? Because I'm guessing the amount of people that are now talking about American Eagle compared to before must be way more than the actual media buy that.

Craig Bromers (17:09)

Listen, John, we're closing in 45 billion impressions for the campaign. And to your point, that's a mix of paid and organic. And YouTube has told me that this campaign has been seen on their platform alone eight times more than Beyonce and Levi's, which is astounding. Right. And so I think it just underscores scores, the fact that this thing just blew up and was much bigger than my industry, was much bigger than the advertising industry. This became a cultural phenomenon that everyone was talking about and everyone had an opinion about. And I think that the exciting thing for us is when we set out to partner with Sydney, we, we didn't just want to participate in culture, we actually wanted to define culture. And I know that that sounds like a hollow statement coming from a cmo, but damn it, we did it, right? We actually did define culture. In the late part of this summer, there was not a topic that was more discussed than the Sydney Sweeney American Eagle campaign.

John Evans (18:12)

Yeah. It also shows that creating a reaction, even if it's negative for some, actually is the amplification of it as well. I was trying to think, actually, but before this, what's the closest I've come to the situation you find yourself? And it took me back. This is going back about 20 years, but I was a young brand manager. And do you have dicerono Amaretto here.

Craig Bromers (18:33)

In America, we probably do, but I wouldn't be an expert.

John Evans (18:36)

Yeah, it's like an almond, almond flavored liqueur. And you have it in coffee often in cocktails, that sort of thing. And I was, I think I was doing my first brand manager job and I thought I've got to do something to really stand out. And I worked with the London Underground to develop the smell of liqueur. It's a very distinctive almond smell. And I came up with the idea of pumping the smell through the underground so when people are, you know, getting on and off of the, of the tube, they can smell the liqueur.

Craig Bromers (19:02)

Interesting.

John Evans (19:03)

And then I took over on all the escalator panels. I wrapped them so that it was completely wrapped in the branding. And then as you left, you got a miniature little tiny sample. So you smelt it, you saw it and you could taste it sort of thing. And it was in the four weeks run up to Christmas.

Craig Bromers (19:17)

Right, Sounds good. But I think there's a dot, dot.

John Evans (19:19)

There, there is a dot, dot. This is one of those timing is everything stories, because this is 2002 and I say we, US and UK are about to go to war with Iraq and Tony Blair is in Parliament basically justifying that Saddam Hussein's got weapons of mass destruction. Anyway, it's very, very heightened at the time. The day the campaign went live, every newspaper ran a headline that said the Home Office warned the public to look out for cyanide attacks on the Underground. And in brackets, the sign of cyanide. The smell of almonds.

Craig Bromers (19:56)

No.

John Evans (19:57)

Yeah.

Craig Bromers (19:58)

Oh, that is a crisis.

John Evans (20:00)

So I was at some Christmas trade show. It was like a Christmas trade show. And I was there sort of doing some sartplaying and my phone had just like, I just missed all these calls. And almost every journalist from every major newspaper was trying to get a quote. And so I ended up becoming. I ended up being on the news to try and just. Because, of course, they thought this was a stunt that I was doing on purpose. Now I was like, I've been planning this for six months. The London Underground have had to sign it off. I didn't come up with it this morning. You know what I mean? So it's interesting. Perception and reality. This is a long standing thing. But the thing that you reminded me as you talked about the sales reaction is we had our best Christmas ever. Wow. And even in the biggest newspaper in Italy ran with the story of how we shut the London Underground down sort of thing. And even the owner of the company was on the phone to Me going, what just happened? Sort of thing. But it's just wild. Sometimes all PR is good pr in that sense, it could be.

Craig Bromers (20:56)

And that's why in this fascinating experience, I was mystified that the advertising trades were not telling that part of the story. They were understandably, and I totally get it, writing quite negative stories. But when it was clear that we were not going to alter the campaign and we were going to execute it as originally intended, I was surprised that there wouldn't be more articles or podcasts or something that said, well, what if this is working? Like, what does that actually look like? We were in a so called quiet period. And for your listeners, many of them who may be Brits may not understand that in a quiet period a public company cannot release any business information. And so there was mystery to that. But it also did hamper our ability to react to some just completely untrue stories. But it is so interesting that there wasn't more of what if this is working? So I don't know, I mean, I just, I found that very interesting because I always thought that advertising was supposed to provoke. Now, provoke does not necessarily mean negatively, but provoke a conversation, provoke something. And so this campaign clearly did. And through that I view it from a very positive lens.

John Evans (22:16)

Yeah, I wonder what you. Because you got like Jaguar had the same experience last year when they did their campaign and it's too early to tell because I'm not selling the car yet, so we'll have to wait for another year or two to find out. But I think they're in a similar situation where although they caused a reaction and got a bit of a backlash, actually everyone's talking about them and the interest in the car has never been higher. But what would your advice be? Because I think what's interesting about this is the fact that you held the course in the crisis. And by the way, I think most people would have found it very hard because you just reading your LinkedIn or reading Twitter etc, et cetera, you can see the vitriol that's out there by some people, right. They go in quite hard for you, but you held the course and you didn't look back sort of thing. And I think that's interesting because I think other companies will look back at this and go, hang on a minute, you know, it pays to see it through and not kind of react in the way that most comms consultants would suggest.

Craig Bromers (23:06)

Yeah.

John Evans (23:07)

So I'm intrigued to know what, what you would take and what your advice would be to other marketers facing a.

Craig Bromers (23:13)

Similar Thing I want to answer that, John, and I want to say this first is what I realized through this experience is there's no two experiences that are similar. Right. And so I'm tell you what I learned through this experience and how it helped us through. But it's very hard because I'm not in the seat of the Jaguar cmo. I'm not in the seat of the Bud Light cmo. I'm not in the seat of whatever the next crisis or scandal du jour is. And I really believe that that CMO and his or her team are owed the respect of, of we don't understand the full picture and they have access to data that I wouldn't have. But in this case, I actually think it started with a mindset and I think what we did in this process is we were not managing a crisis. We were actually optimizing an opportunity. And so if you change that mindset, all of a sudden you're going to be doing different things and you're going to probably be leaning in to the opportunity as opposed to leaning back and, and being reactive. So I think that's one thing. What's your, what's your mindset through this? 2, and this is the most obvious one. Don't listen to the noise. Don't listen to the social media noise within reason. Listen to the data that is in your fingertips in the moment. In this case, that definitely helped us. I mentioned it before. If you're in a talent partnership, it has to go both ways. And it was very important for me to be able to tell Sydney and her team that we are sticking with this, we are sticking with you, and we will execute this as we all originally intended. I think that was extremely important. And I think that the final thing is you really have to go back to what were you trying to do in the first place. And if you are beginning to accomplish some of those goals, you are probably on the right path. And at the top of the pod here, you and I talked about what we were trying to do and I would say check, mission accomplished on all of that. And then I think that in terms of just managing through something like this, I really think we had a very small, very tight team on this. Like, I'm talking like four or five people that were in the trenches together. We were given the grace of total confidence from the board and from our CEO and from other cross functional partners here at American Eagle. And that made the job easier because I'd. I didn't have to manage other things through that. We were Just managing through the moment as a very, very tight team. So I think that is what is. And then, like I said, don't listen to the crisis experts, like, go with your gut and be informed with data. Make sure you're doing it through your brand values. And I think that you can stick the landing if you do all those.

John Evans (26:14)

That's very well put. It reminded me a little bit of, I don't know if you've read the Jim Collins book, Good to Great, the follow up, Great by Choice. He talks about the most successful companies. It's not that they had any more luck or either good or bad than their competitors. It's entirely how they reacted to that. And I think that's the interesting thing here is like, something like this will happen a handful of times in most people's careers, and what matters is how you use it. I love the fact you reframed it. It's not a crisis. It's an. I think that's really, really powerful. And the data from good to great would suggest that's exactly what you did.

Craig Bromers (26:51)

I love that, John. And again, I think the reaction to the reaction is what potentially won those first eight weeks. I think that the way that we navigated those moments showed clarity, showed focus, showed confidence. And I think that that was heartening for our customers and heartening for new customers and then clearly heartening for many people that were commenting about this campaign.

John Evans (27:17)

Yeah, I think I know the answer to this question because you alluded to it a little bit earlier, but are you planning to use Sydney more in future campaigns? We're going to see more of her collaborating with you.

Craig Bromers (27:26)

Not the right time, right place to make any announcements, but our experience with Sydney has been the most exciting and most successful campaign in the history of the company. So that would be amazing. And I think that we now have permission to take big swings and we may even have the swagger to echo at a high level. And I know our team, both from a product and marketing perspective, developing a roadmap into 26 and beyond that will be jaw dropping. And I think that the goal now is for people to be on the edge of their seat of what is American Eagle going to do next? And I really think that that question, it helps me be inspired every time I walk through the doors here at the American Eagle headquarters. And I think is exciting for our team as well, because we will be in the spotlight with whatever we do next. And I think that's the moment where we need to continue to excite and delight and exhilarate the retail industry and the marketing community as a whole.

John Evans (28:33)

Yeah. I mean, you talked about Beyonce and Levi's. Do you think we're going to kind of enter an era of some kind of genes wars going on here? Because Gap released their one. Did their campaign, didn't they, with Katseye quite soon after you?

Craig Bromers (28:46)

Yeah. It was the great denim wars of 2025. Right. Everyone brought their A game. And honestly, John, part of me is not surprised because I always call this time of year the Denim Super Bowl. It is the most important time to sell jeans here in the States. And so you're always bringing your best campaigns and best talent. But to your point, I mean, it got very crowded in that ring. Right. Beyonce and Levi's, Kat's Eye and Gap, Addison Ray and Lucky and Sydney Sweeney and American Eagle. But I can confidently sit here and say that if we had to pick a winner of the great denim wars of 2025, her name is Sydney Sweeney.

John Evans (29:27)

I think that's fairly clear. Just moving from. We talked a lot about promotion and how you're promoting to products and you're showing off anyone who's by the way, listening rather than watching Craig sporting and you. It's limited edition. The Travis Kelsey. It's just a drop.

Craig Bromers (29:41)

Yeah.

John Evans (29:42)

What's your, what's been your kind of product strategy for the brand and is presumably this is part of your plan to get, you know, to get the, you know, update the product.

Craig Bromers (29:52)

I really think that you are programming a retail brand as an entertainment brand these days. And yes, we're in the retail industry, but we have to be in the entertainment industry just as much. And I think when you bring people like Travis in or other collaborations. We did it. It creates excitement, it creates a sense of urgency, it creates a plot twist that is exciting for the four weeks or the eight weeks or whatever it is, along with the day in and day out product that we sell. For many of your listeners, you may or may not know that American Eagle is the number one seller of jeans here in the States. We're the number one retail brand for Gen Z. We are always trying to create interest in what's new, what's next, what's happening now, and, and when you bring in these collaborations, especially if talent is associated with it, that's that jolt of energy that you need in a potential sea of sameness out there. So that's why Travis has been so phenomenally successful for us in the last few weeks.

John Evans (30:52)

Yeah. And fashion in particular seems to be a category where celebrity endorsement is so critical. I Mean, some brands might go, I might have a celebrity in my super bowl ad once a year. But fashion seems to be this, you know, this category where celebrity endorsement is absolutely critical. Is that key to I guess the a brand becoming fashionable and becoming in demand? Is that kind of.

Craig Bromers (31:14)

I think it could be an element to it. I mean, I think the most important thing is what do you want your brand to stand for and then how do you bring that to life? And talent is an important part of our mix, but it isn't the only part of the mix either. And as you well know, there's a creator economy, an influencer economy, there's a bold face, talent component of it. I think it again, it's programming this brand like an entertainment brand, entertainment show almost, that is going to keep it fresh and unique.

John Evans (31:47)

Yeah. So what are the, if you look at kind of what makes the brand succeed, you know, beyond the things we talked about, what other elements are key to the brand succeeding?

Craig Bromers (31:56)

Well, listen, jeans, jeans and jeans, that's our superpower. And so when jeans are working, this company is working. So that, that's first, I think second of all, we have the second largest store fleet here in the states. And so that physical experience is still very important. I know everyone wants to talk about Gen Z and Gen Alpha, you know, the digital natives and all this stuff. Well, turns out they're teenagers, like teenagers have been since the dawn of time. They love physical interaction. So when someone comes into our store and gets that one to one touch in terms of customer service, that makes an impact on their heart and their feeling about our. And so I think that that store component, really super important innovation, innovation and product, innovation and marketing, innovation and experience is something that is super important to us. And we love the fact that we're often the first to market with doing something wacky and new and innovative. So I think that is super important as well. And then I think it all goes back to meaning and purpose. And I know that those words get used a lot by a cmo, but we've done a ton of research and we have a ton of insights on our customer base. And when they wear our jeans, they feel more confident about their bodies, more confident about their, you know, their mental health and more confident in life. And that's ultimately what we are providing is that confidence to be yourself and go out in the world and live your life.

John Evans (33:29)

Now you're a very successful cmo, you're running a very popular brand, you're in the news. What would be, let's say the three Things that make a CMO successful today.

Craig Bromers (33:39)

I think, first of all, being curious, I think that marketing is moving and changing so fast that you cannot rest on the laurels of what happened much less last year. Honestly, even last quarter. And certainly in the case of what we've experienced last couple weeks, the last hour, you have to be constantly curious about what's happening. I think two being humble, I think that is, you know, from my background, I've been in this seat at Calvin Klein, at Abercrombie and at Gap, all unbelievably iconic American brands. And there was a time 10, 15 years ago that that head of marketing was sitting in an ivory tower and you were basically approving things and kind of being this all knowing, all seeing cmo. And I actually think it's now reverse. I think I feel like I'm in the service of amazing team to come up with the boldest ideas and the most exciting execution. And I love the fact that we've created a culture where the most junior person can say, hey, Craig, I think you got it wrong. Or may I play devil's advocate for a second? Have you thought about it from this way? So I actually think being humble and understanding that it is actually not all about you and you don't have all the answers and seeking that input from others is important. And I'm probably captain obvious in saying the third one today is actually being courageous. And I think that this experience reignited my passion to be courageous and push ourselves beyond the norm. Because I do think that our industry, meaning the marketing industry, have played it a little bit safe over the last decade and I've been part of this as well. So I'm looking at myself in the mirror, but I think that we need to take a little bit more risks out there and again, drive culture the way that I remember growing up as a kid of the 90s and of the 2000s. And again, some of the great brands I've had the privilege of working on, Calvin Klein, you remember all those campaigns from Brooke Shields to Mark Hugh Mark to Kate Moss and beyond. When those campaigns come out, it was just the buzz was intense and amazing and that was right for their brand. And what they did is not what we're trying to do here at American Eagle, but it did provoke, it was interest. And so I think that it will be fun to see what we're up to in the near future, but it will be interesting to see if other brands and other industries take bolder risks and create interesting narratives.

John Evans (36:22)

I love the fact that you Said your reaction to this is courage. Because I think a lot of people could look at yourselves, Cracker Barrel, Jaguar, whoever, and actually go, we've got to be safe. I think that's the human reaction, isn't it? Is to avoid. I don't want to be in the spotlight like Craig is at the moment. I did some work with a colleague, Adam Morgan, at Cannes last year where we did a presentation called the Extraordinary Cost of Being Dull. And we had some fashion examples in there actually, but interesting. Just showing how it's all. We've all started, you know, basically copying each other and everything looks the same, everything feels the same, but we actually put a dollar price tag on doing boring work. Because what we found is we've been talking about, you know, taking a risk and being brave for many years and the importance of emotion and no one's really paying any attention. Because actually with digitization and social media, we've actually started to, you know, started to play it more safe. And we worked out that in the, this is in the uk, but we replicated it here, that we looked at a database of advertising going over 20 years and for the dull campaigns, they would have to have spent £10 million more per campaign to match an interesting campaign. I mean, interesting is like high emotional response. Gathered a reaction like you guys did. And as soon as you put like a financial cost on being dull, you realize that actually not taking a risk is the biggest risk you can take. You know, I mean, so that's why I think your courage thing is absolutely spot on. Is like, you know, it's more costly for you to not do what you.

Craig Bromers (37:49)

I love that. I think that's super, super interesting and honestly super motivating. So I appreciate you sharing that.

John Evans (37:53)

Yeah, I mean, because we had an amazing reaction to that presentation. And what I ended up ended up discovering is I got invited around the world actually mostly to get in front of CFOs and creative agencies. Like, you must come and like meet, meet my clients and show them this data, you know, trying to encourage business to realize that actually creativity matters. It matters. The bottom line.

Craig Bromers (38:16)

I think creativity matters and I do think leadership matters. And again, I gotta give a shout out to the leadership here at American Eagle. You have to remember, one of our sister brands, Aerie, was behind the Aerie Real movement, which was really the first brand not to retouch female models and obviously kind of led the body positivity movement and definitely was a reaction to the over sexiness of Victoria's Secret. And so the last 10 years Arie Real has dominated space and now American Eagle comes along with this great jeans campaign and creates such an amazing cultural reaction. So I do think it's up to the marketers, but I also do think that it is a up to other C suite leaders, up to the board level of having the confidence and having the conviction to take a few chances and push yourself, because I think things can get watered down everywhere. Right. And you can make compromises everywhere. And I'm hoping that what I learned through this experience for myself and my team here at American Eagle, but hopefully for other senior marketers out there is a, well, maybe we'll do this a little bit differently here or maybe we tweak something there. It all starts to get watered down and then to your point, it's dull and it doesn't really have any impact. And I think that we are marking for impact in a day where attention is probably the thing that we are craving the most. And the only way to connect with people is to come up with something that actually stops them for a moment and gets them thinking or talking and creating some sort of action.

John Evans (39:59)

I love the bit you're saying earlier about how the role of the CMO is different in that you're enabling your team to do great work. And someone asked me earlier today, actually in an interview, what a successful CMO does, and I said, you'd be very surprised because they don't do very much marketing. In reality, that's what their team does. Right. And I said, in a way, the four Ps of the CMO are completely different to the four Ps of marketing. They're probably managing the politics in the organization, persuading people to get behind the platform, managing the people, inspiring them, and then planning what happens next and looking two or three steps ahead. But actually it's about creating the conditions to be brave and courageous and create the conditions for success. Isn't it within the team and the company.

Craig Bromers (40:42)

That's right.

John Evans (40:43)

To allow others to be successful.

Craig Bromers (40:44)

That's right. That's right. I think that's well said.

John Evans (40:47)

Well, just to round up then. If there was one thing from the conversation we've had that has stuck in your mind or that you think is the most important thing for people to take away from this, what would the one thing be?

Craig Bromers (40:59)

I think it is the mindset. Because I think that when you have a certain mindset, you're going to react a certain way. It's so interesting because so many people now are coming up to me and talking about this and whether on an airplane, at a social gathering, or here in New York for Advertising Week, they're kindly saying that was the new gold standard of how to manage a crisis. And I'm super appreciative when you say that. But it is interesting that that was not the mindset that managing a crisis. That was optimizing an opportunity. And so I would just encourage any marketer that was. That is going through any of these moments is what is your mindset through this? And what does success look on the other side of it? Because that really can lead you to making very different decisions than if you have this mindset of I'm managing a crisis. Does that make sense?

John Evans (41:55)

It makes a lot of sense. I love that. And that's the thing, actually, as I was watching it unfold and as I was thinking about. About meeting you, I most wanted to understand, actually. So I love that you said that because, you know, having been in different crises myself and seen it from the inside and looking at it from the outside as well, I think you have to manage your own thinking. And I loved what you said earlier, actually, about taking yourself off social media, because it can drive you crazy, can't it? And it can actually distract you from the real customer who really matters. That's right. You know the, you know, the boys and girls buying the jeans, right?

Craig Bromers (42:28)

That's right. That's right.

John Evans (42:29)

And at the end of the day, they are the ones that matter. Craig, thank you so much. It's great to have you on the show and thank you for coming and sharing the story and all the advice and appreciate it very much.

Craig Bromers (42:40)

Well, John, I love your pod, so it's fun to be on here for the first time. Cool.

John Evans (42:43)

Thanks, man. Thank you. Thank you very much for listening or watching Uncensored cmo. I hope you enjoyed that. If you did, please do hit the subscribe button wherever you get your podcast. If you're watching, hit subscribe there as well. Well, I'd also love to get a review. Reviews make a big difference on other people discovering the show. So please do leave a review wherever you get your podcast. If you want to contact me, you can do I'm over on XenSoredCMO or on LinkedIn where I'm under my own name. John Evans. Thanks for listening and watching. I'll see you next time.