Building Britain's Most Iconic Brands - Kerris Bright (BBC)

Summary

Uncensored CMO: Building Britain's Most Iconic Brands with Kerris Bright (BBC)

Host: Jon Evans
Guest: Kerris Bright, Chief Customer Officer, BBC
Release Date: October 9, 2024

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Introduction and Kerris Bright’s Background

The episode kicks off with Jon Evans welcoming Kerris Bright, the Chief Customer Officer at the BBC, to discuss her extensive experience in brand building and marketing. Kerris shares her unique academic background, holding a PhD in Molecular Neuroscience, which paved an unconventional path into the world of marketing. At [00:15], she quips, “I have a Doctor of philosophy, but in molecular neuroscience,” highlighting the blend of scientific rigor and storytelling that defines her career.

Transition from Academia to Marketing

Kerris reflects on her decision to leave academia for marketing, driven by her passion for storytelling and data-driven strategies. At [00:52], she explains, “I loved the results, I love talking about it, I like piecing together the story,” emphasizing her inclination towards narrative and data alike. This duality, she believes, has been a consistent thread throughout her career, allowing her to excel in roles that require both analytical and creative thinking.

Early Career at Unilever

Joining Unilever’s trainee scheme marked the beginning of Kerris’s brand-building journey. She fondly recalls her time at Quest International, a B2B perfume and food ingredients business, where she even trained to be a perfumer before realizing her hay fever was a deal-breaker. Kerris highlights the invaluable training and leadership development provided by Unilever, stating at [04:29], “The level of personal development... has served me well as I've been able to have leadership positions going forward.”

Entrepreneurial Leap with Unipath

After three years, Kerris transitioned to Unipath, a consumer healthcare startup within Unilever, focusing on women’s healthcare. Here, she leveraged her scientific background to bridge the gap between R&D and marketing, gaining credibility within the organization. At [06:29], she shares, “It gets you more connected into the organization, a little bit more respected when you're talking with PhDs and R&D.”

Pivot to ICI Paints

Kerris’s move to ICI Paints was serendipitous, originating from a chance meeting facilitated by a Unilever connection. Despite initial reservations about shifting from a large brand-led company to a product-focused business, she embraced the opportunity to manage the iconic Dulux brand. At [10:15], she recounts, “They actually took a bit of a punt on me and it was literally fortuitous that I happened to get that job.”

Navigating Crisis and Driving Growth

Upon joining ICI Paints, Kerris was thrust into a crisis as the company faced significant distribution losses with key retailers like B&Q. She describes how this situation forced her team to innovate rapidly, culminating in a successful brand-building and innovation program that restored market share and improved margins. At [16:24], Kerris reflects, “Never waste a crisis... it was the accelerated learning of a lifetime.”

Insights on Collaboration Between Marketing and Sales

Kerris emphasizes the importance of strong leadership and collaboration between marketing and sales teams. She explains how joint initiatives on category management and promotional strategies fostered mutual respect and effective teamwork. At [19:09], she advises, “Let other people tell your story because it's so much more credible...”

Experience in Private Equity and Business Turnaround

Following her tenure at ICI Paints, Kerris ventured into private equity with Bain Capital, aiming to turn around struggling businesses. Despite her efforts and passion, the economic downturn and shifting priorities led to the eventual sale and restructuring of the businesses she managed. At [38:13], she candidly shares, “I had a plan or I'll leave in six months... but things changed on the journey.”

Leadership Roles at British Airways and Virgin Media

Kerris’s career continued with significant roles at British Airways and Virgin Media. At British Airways, she worked on revitalizing the airline’s customer experience amidst competition from low-cost carriers. Transitioning to Virgin Media, she focused on infusing the brand with Virgin’s dynamic and customer-centric values. At [48:07], she proudly states, “Being part of that group because you can learn from others and everyone else who's been a pioneer.”

Current Role at the BBC: Challenges and Strategies

As Chief Customer Officer at the BBC, Kerris faces the unique challenge of enhancing customer value without traditional profit motives. She discusses her strategy to measure and increase audience value, ensuring that every segment of the UK population receives sufficient value from the BBC’s services. At [48:50], she elaborates, “We know the segments for whom we get enough value... and who don't and how do we help those that don't get enough.”

Kerris highlights initiatives like the “Five Truth Zone” to reinforce trust and transparency, especially in light of challenges like the Hugh Edwards scandal. At [60:17], she affirms, “BBC News is editorially independent from the management of the BBC... We have to preserve that independence.”

Balancing Content Engagement and Brand Advocacy

Kerris explains the delicate balance of promoting the BBC’s rich content portfolio while ensuring it aligns with the organization’s mission and values. She emphasizes the shift from passive consumption to active engagement across diverse platforms. At [61:09], she notes, “Our job as sort of brand builders is to engage audiences in that content and of course to make sure they ladder up to the BBC.”

Advice for Aspiring Marketers

In closing, Kerris shares invaluable advice for marketers aspiring to leadership roles. She underscores the importance of curiosity, commercial savvy, and boldness. At [68:28], she encourages, “Always being really curious... Be bold. It might not all work out, but if you aren't doing something big and courageous, what's the point?”

Kerris concludes with a reflection on embracing career challenges as opportunities for growth, reinforcing the notion that stepping out of one’s comfort zone is essential for professional development.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Kerris Bright ([00:15]): “I have a Doctor of philosophy, but in molecular neuroscience.”

• Kerris Bright ([00:52]): “I loved the results, I love talking about it, I like piecing together the story.”

• Kerris Bright ([04:29]): “The level of personal development... has served me well as I've been able to have leadership positions going forward.”

• Kerris Bright ([06:29]): “It gets you more connected into the organization, a little bit more respected when you're talking with PhDs and R&D.”

• Kerris Bright ([10:15]): “They actually took a bit of a punt on me and it was literally fortuitous that I happened to get that job.”

• Kerris Bright ([16:24]): “Never waste a crisis... it was the accelerated learning of a lifetime.”

• Kerris Bright ([19:09]): “Let other people tell your story because it's so much more credible...”

• Kerris Bright ([38:13]): “I had a plan or I'll leave in six months... but things changed on the journey.”

• Kerris Bright ([48:07]): “Being part of that group because you can learn from others and everyone else who's been a pioneer.”

• Kerris Bright ([48:50]): “We know the segments for whom we get enough value... and who don't and how do we help those that don't get enough.”

• Kerris Bright ([60:17]): “BBC News is editorially independent from the management of the BBC... We have to preserve that independence.”

• Kerris Bright ([68:28]): “Always being really curious... Be bold. It might not all work out, but if you aren't doing something big and courageous, what's the point?”

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Conclusion

Kerris Bright’s journey from molecular neuroscience to leading iconic British brands underscores the power of blending analytical prowess with creative storytelling. Her tenure at the BBC highlights the complexities of managing a public broadcaster’s brand, emphasizing trust, value, and adaptability in a rapidly evolving media landscape. Aspiring marketers can draw inspiration from Kerris’s emphasis on curiosity, collaboration, and bold leadership to navigate their career paths successfully.

Transcript

[Keris Bright]

Foreign.

[John Evans]

Welcome back to the uncensored cmo. Now we're going to be talking about the BBC with someone who knows all about the BBC, which is their Chief Customer officer, Keris Bright. Welcome to the show.

[Keris Bright]

Thank you.

[John Evans]

Well, it's wonderful to have you. I'm really excited to be talking about the BBC and getting into what all that means. I've got a ton of questions to ask you, but before we get there, you had a career before the BBC, which won't surprise anyone listening. So I thought I'd find out. Is it true that. That you have a PhD in Philosophy and molecular neuroscience?

[Keris Bright]

Well, I have a Doctor of philosophy, but in molecular neuroscience, so a PhD, yes, in molecular neuroscience, for my sins.

[John Evans]

That's astonishing. Now, I meet lots of people in this job who've kind of got into marketing. That's an unusual career path, but I guess you kind of understand how people think, maybe, and how the brain works, maybe. Is there anything you've taken from that education that you take into your job now?

[Keris Bright]

Yes. It's not the most straightforward start to a career in marketing, it has to be said. But I think what I take out now is one of the reasons why I decided to not become an academic was I didn't think I was the same shape as most academics, that I actually loved the subject matter and I liked. I'm very comfortable with data and the science side of it, but I was more interested probably in telling the story of it, teaching it, talking about it, and most of my colleagues hated that communication side of it. They actually wanted to do the work. And I realized I don't actually like doing work events, but I love the results, I love talking about it, I like piecing together the story, I like the storytelling of it. So I kind of realized I probably wasn't going to be a really successful academic. I probably should choose something else. Hence making a break and going into. Into marketing. And I, I didn't know much about it at the time, but I thought, I love psychology, I thought I liked advertising. I'm interested in shopping, why people make the choices they make. And it was as much as that. And I thought I need to make a good. A new start, start again in a way. And I joined Unilever. But as I look back, I think the fact that I'm really comfortable with the left brain and the right brain, with data, with ideas, with magic, with logic, with art and science, I find that has sort of served me well and that probably is the thing that sort of like, been a bit of a Red thread through my career is I've done jobs where both of those things have kind of mattered. And I think the fact that I was both of those things and not one of those things is probably why I was never going to be a great scientist.

[John Evans]

Amazing. You just reminded me actually very, very early in my career I did they used to do these Belbin type profiles. I don't know if you remember those. And I remember going to the assessment center and the lady running it said you've got a very unusual profile.

[Keris Bright]

Right.

[John Evans]

Apparently I was monitor evaluator which is kind of the academic numbers and plant which is the creative ideas person. And apparently I topped out both of those spectrums which you said was really unusual. Usually people are one or the other and actually in a weird sense I, I do like marketing because it does bring the kind of creativity and art and magic of inventing things with the sort of science, data discipline of business and getting results and it does marry those two things.

[Keris Bright]

And I found that because often many of my roles have been in heavily businesses that are dominated by R and D, research and development, technology innovation. And I found the fact that I was a research scientist, I can absolutely know what it's like to do research where you can't plan to get the answers out in one year to a budget has helped me with a little bit of credibility when working with those parts of the organization. So I'm not going to say having a PhD has really served me well in my marketing career but there are some elements of it that I think.

[John Evans]

It'S a lovely trump card to play every now and then, isn't it? Just when you need it, you know.

[Keris Bright]

Yeah. And it helps if you feel a bit insecure just as it actually Dr.

[John Evans]

Bright, if I mentioned, if I mentioned my PhD. Yeah.

[Keris Bright]

And I think also you know, I was blonde haired, long hair, blonde hair, Essex girl. I think part of me also was a little bit insecure that I wouldn't be taken seriously in the world. And so I think doing a Ph.D. i thought well maybe in this world of work I might also be taken a bit more seriously. Which back in the day, yeah I.

[John Evans]

Can imagine women in business kind of.

[Keris Bright]

Actually that maybe it's done means instead.

[John Evans]

There as well now you started out in perhaps might be considered the most brand led organization in the world at training marketers Unilever. I mean what a grounding to have in terms of the, you know, the understanding of how marketing works and you know, being brand led as an organization. I mean they are really kind of you know, I guess they're pioneers as kind of brand led marketing, aren't they? What did you learn in Those, in those 10 years about kind of brand building that's put you in good stead?

[Keris Bright]

Oh, just a very fortunate to. It wasn't an incredibly well thought through thing. I wanted a job and I wanted to start somewhere and I felt I needed to make a good start having done a PhD and then so joining a good company if I could felt important. I felt I wanted to get a bit of training behind me and so that's why I was attracted by the schemes and I joined the Unilever trainee scheme back in the day. And the level of personal development that they're prepared to put you through as well as skill development, I think actually that is. So as well as helping you be a functional marketer, the skills of brand building, they also develop you very early on as a manager and as a leader. And probably it's as much that aspect of it, the personal development, I think that has served me well as I've been able to have leadership positions going forward. But an incredible organization full of super smart people doing really exceptional things. But I actually joined sort of. I was a bit on the edge of Unilever. I was not at the core, as they say. I first joined Quest International which was a B2B perfume and food ingredients business. So I was working with perfumers and I even trained to be one for a couple of months actually. So I was thought I might be a nose at one point. Worked out I had hay fever, which is not a good, not a good start. But it was a very interesting business. But it's B2B not on the core of Unilever. But you're getting all of the training about brand building, consumer facing brand building, in fact being exposed, all of that training and working with others who were working with consumer brands made me feel that, oh, maybe the business I'm in is not the one that is most interesting. So after three years I actually asked to make a move and I made a move to a consumer facing business. But it was a small entrepreneurial business called Unipath in consumer healthcare, women's health care. It was a tech startup. They took a technology which was monoclonal antibody technology, but they applied it to pregnancy testing. So they were the pioneers of the two blue lines on stick.

[John Evans]

Wow.

[Keris Bright]

And patented that and had the patent for that globally. So they were the people that invented the simple way of knowing whether you're pregnant or not and then commercialized it and were commercializing other aspects of women's healthcare. So I thought, wow, this might be quite interesting, maybe a better fit for the next step, consumer branding, because it was a consumer facing business and I wanted to test out my experience in there. But also I felt, look, I'm interested in this and I could understand it actually. So I was one of the few people that could sit in R and D and, and talk about monoclonal antibodies and actually understand what they were doing and how they did. It doesn't make you a great marketer, but it probably, as I said earlier, it gets you more connected into the organization, a little bit more respected when you're talking with PhDs and R& D. And so I joined Unipath, tiny business in Unilever's sort of home and personal care group along with Leavers and Alida Gibbs, I think it was in the day. So you're part of a group that's doing amazing brand building things and I could learn from all of that. If I had a question on segmentation, I could learn from the best at the center of Unilever. But it was a very small business and you could actually do quite meaningful things inside your team, get promoted quite fast, asked to do big things. I was a general manager when I was 31 because I asked to create a general manager position to run the UK and they were like, yeah, why don't you do that? So I, I felt I was really lucky in those first 10 years because I had all of the training, the backing and the business, had the financial security of being part of Unilever. But what I got to do was experiment with jobs, do international jobs, general management jobs sort of develop quite fast. I'm not sure that would have been available to me into a bigger organization. They're probably too competitive. So in a small organization you probably can do more. And so that probably for me personally, those 10 years stood me in really good stead.

[John Evans]

It's really similar to my experience and not quite at the league of Unilever. I was at Britvic and I gravitated to the smaller brands because what I found is you had much more responsibility. You may not have the budget or the glamour of working on Pepsi, which is probably our biggest, or Robinson's our biggest brand, but you just got so much more experience. You got PNL accountability, you got to own the plan and implement the plan. And I did similar things, kind of working international for a bit to see how the markets do it. Bit, bit of innovation and on. But I think you accelerate your career Far quicker, don't you? And you just get much more rounds of experience rather than, you know, working on a small part of a big brand, which can take a lot longer.

[Keris Bright]

And I think for me also much more leadership experience, probably much faster. I mean getting to manage small teams is not that hard. But often I was been in charge of sales teams and managing people a lot older than me sometimes, which in your early part of your career it gave me a lot of experience, I think. So I'm incredibly grateful actually. And I think if you cut me through the wrist, I am Unilever through and through. Know you tend to be. You're either PNG or Unilear of the day and I do feel deeply grateful to that organization. In fact, I was the president of the marketing group of Great Britain a couple of years ago and you have to organize speaker dinners. And I actually went to talk to Alan Yope, who I didn't know he was CEO of Unile at the time. And I said, will you come and be one of my speakers? Because I'd love you to come and talk at something. Because for me Unilever is, is so part of my background and I'm so proud to have been part of the organization. I'd love it if you would come and talk to the group. And he was absolutely fantastic.

[John Evans]

Oh, that's very, very special.

[Keris Bright]

Yeah.

[John Evans]

Now you made quite a big pivot, didn't you after that point. So you went from probably the most brand led organization I think on the planet to the world of paint and a very, very big job with lots of responsibility. So what was the challenge in moving from a brand led organization to ici, which I'm guessing was probably a lot more commercial R and D focused, product focus.

[Keris Bright]

Actually there's an interesting story about how you get that job, right. When people think these things are well plotted and it's a bit of a fluke and a massive stroke of good luck and a bit of preparation. I was talking to a friend whose husband used to work at Unilever and I'd probably been, I was at 10 years at Unilever at that point thinking, what do I do next? I was in this small company. I couldn't go much further in the small company and it wasn't obvious how I'd make my way back into the big parts of Unilever. So I was at that point of thinking, what's next? Talking over dinner and then three weeks later got a call from him and he said, I've been thinking about you, Keris. And Your next step. And I'm at ici. The paints business actually needs really good marketers. It's got the Dulux brand. It really needs good marketers. They don't always find it easier to attract them. Do you think this might be interesting? And I remember thinking Unilever to ICI Paint. Why would you ever do that? I'm in the kind of like the best organization for brand building. But then I started to think, ah, Dulux, wow. I'm working in a very small business and this is a massive brand. My brand in Unipath gets one foot of space in boots and I can go into B and Q and you see Dulux and it takes up meters and meters of aisles. This might be quite interesting. And personally, I love interior design architecture, so this is not hard for me to get interested in that world of color and interior design. So I started to get quite interested. But the only thing that happened was he said, well, I'll try and set up a meeting for you with the European CEO. That meeting didn't really happen. It took about almost five or six months. Later, we tried to get. This meeting didn't happen. I was traveling, he was traveling. And in the end we found the date and I thought, well, I'll just go. And I went to this meeting. The chemistry was very good. I liked him a lot. We talked a lot. And it wasn't an interview because there was no job. And so you're probably a bit more confident. And we talked about what I felt the business might need and I talked about a local business that might benefit from more European or global brand building category management. And he said, so what would you want to do if you came here? And I said, well, maybe, you know, UK Marketing director would be the place to start, but there's probably something you could do at a European level. And he said, funny you should say that, Caris, because yesterday our UK marketing director resigned.

[John Evans]

Wow.

[Keris Bright]

To go to a very big job at Nestle. So literally a meeting that had taken five months and almost never happened, happened the day after someone left. And he said, why don't you come and talk to the UK general manager? Which I did. They wanted to see me like a hole in the head because I would been given to them. But we actually got on very well. I started then to prepare. I kind of wanted to do this, do a job there at that point. And so I just met people in the organization and they never actually advertised the job. And I think if they'd advertised the job, I probably would never have got it because even though I was Unilever, I was working on very small things. I'd never made a television ad in my life, and yet ICI Paint and Dulux was doing a lot of that work. So I think they actually took a bit of a punt on me and it was literally fortuitous that I happened to get that job. And that's how I ended up being marketing director of Icanna Paints.

[John Evans]

I think this is such an important point, though, because we had Helen on from Squiggly Careers, who's just incredible. And I think we tend to think of careers as this linear. I mean, particularly in a Unilever. It's like I go and do this job, then I go and get the experience in this market and then I work on this brand, this bit of the mix. But actually, you make your career far more than people realize. It's a lot less linear, isn't it?

[Keris Bright]

Yeah, it was a relationship, it was a connection. And then when that connection was made, which almost didn't happen, yeah, I actually prepared really hard for it. I really then decided I wanted to do that job. And I remember being so excited about going there on my first day and thinking, how wonderful to learn about this whole new world. I was a UK marketing director, so it was a really big job. The first time I'd really. And it was the most senior marketing role in the organization, so I was really excited about it. And I remember going in to see my boss, the general manager, and he said, carys, we need to have a chat. And he said, there's something you need to know, which is we've just fallen out with our biggest customer, which is B and Q, and we're about to have quite a lot of our range delisted, and we're not quite sure what that's going to mean for us. And I thought I was going into this nice learning period of a new organization. Get your feet on table. And I joined a business that actually was in crisis. It was pretty scary. If you talk about being out of your comfort zone, I've never been more out. Maybe I have since, but I was thrown out of my comfort zone because they're like, we don't know quite what this is going to mean for us. This is off scale. We're going to lose 30% of the volume of our business from distribution overnight. And we got to work out what we're going to do and how are you going to help? And I'm thinking, okay, right, what am I going to do in my team? So it Was not a comfortable start. That said, as they say, never waste a crisis. I got a lot of help from friends and networks that I built in Unilever and said, look, how can you help me? I've got a month to create an innovation program and a whole brand building program that is either going to try and win that customer back because we hoped we could win the customer back and if not, we've got to build our brand elsewhere and make up for a significant chunk of loss of distribution. And you're from that world and you'll know what that can mean to business. And, and we did lose that distribution and I, we spent collectively the next two years putting into place all of that innovation. The business made a massive commitment to brand building, also working with very big customers. So we work very closely with Homebase but we also fell in love again with independent retailers that I think if we're honest, we turned our back on a little bit to focus on the big, the big chains. And through those years we built back all of that market share and in fact three years later we still didn't have that distribution. We'd put on 4 percentage points in market share value and were making to the business. The margins were a lot healthier. It wasn't what I expected to go there and do. I thought I would do some nice marketing with an amazing paint brand, but from a commercial perspective, category development, working with customers, driving all of that stuff was the accelerated learning of a lifetime.

[John Evans]

It's amazing, isn't it, how a crisis actually very, very often turns out to be the best thing that ever happened. Because it focuses, it forces you to lead, doesn't it? It forces you to move quickly, it forces you to innovate, forces you to think about your brand, all those things that may not have happened at the pace that.

[Keris Bright]

And it forces you to connect into the organization. And we have another story probably from Virgin Media when we come to that, which is when things happen like that. If you've joined new organization at Senior, it can take you a long time to connect, to build those relationships. When you join a team that is facing something quite difficult. Yeah, if you use that opportunity, you form relationships and connections because you're in the trenches together.

[John Evans]

That's a very good point.

[Keris Bright]

And suddenly you're in the business and not on the outside of the business and you don't know it at the time, but it was the thing that allows you to get connected and work as a team and then go and get stuff done.

[John Evans]

Slightly analogous this during COVID did some Saw some research from Embassy Saatchi Clear that talked about the role of a CMO in a crisis. And it's really interesting because the expectations of the business is that the CMO will lead, come up with strategy, be very visible, connect to customers, all those kind of things. So when things are going well, the CMO is kind of in the background. When things are in crisis, like everyone's looking around going, what are you going to do? Like, come on, where's your plan?

[Keris Bright]

Yeah.

[John Evans]

Do you know what I mean?

[Keris Bright]

Yeah. Because we had to grow and we had to grow with different customers. Customers. And you really realized, yeah, I think I could be the source of that growth also. I mean, look, you don't do this on your own. We had a new sales director join the organization. He was phenomenal. He understood the power of us working together. And if you've got a great marketing director, a really strong partnership with your sales director and you both understand each other's roles, which isn't always easy. We all know sometimes bit of conflict between those two functions. But he was brilliant and together, plus the other team, we kind of fought that course. And so it was a. It was not the experience I expected joining the organization. But I stayed almost for 10 years in that business, clearly loving it. And then over time, my love of color, interior design, the psychology of color and of an environment, we were able to do some of that stuff and that exciting stuff and we could do.

[John Evans]

Some more creative things just before we move on. What lessons did you draw from how to work closely with commercial colleagues? Because I think that's probably something that a lot of marketers, listen, will feel. The sales team don't understand the benefit that marketing brings. You know, they see us as a cost, not as an investment. And there's always that sort of competitive rivalry. You know, as marketing, you're looking more long term sales, you're looking at what do we sell yesterday sort of thing. So those two functions often grate each other, don't they? And it can be hard to build trust and execute. So any advice on how as marketers we can be more effective working with kind of a sales team?

[Keris Bright]

That's a very good question. And I have to say it really helps if you have a really high quality leadership on the sales side. And we did so the quality of that individual, but also their relationship, they were prepared to work together. They did not see us as competitors. And I don't want to underestimate that really helps the other thing that we did. And in fact one of my teams had this idea is we started to work very closely on category development. So not just brand development, but how we could help retailers. And this was really back in the day, right. So this is quite early on how we could really help them shape the category. What was interesting is in, yeah, the decorating category had got wallpaper and paint and almost four times as much space was taken up with wallpaper than paint. And we worked together on category management. That said, you make four times as much profit out of paint, we suggest you reduce your wallpaper space and you give much more to paint because you'll make much more money. And actually that was very successful for the retailers we're working with, which is why they fought off against B and Q entities, why they were more successful in that time. But that was a program that was done absolutely together with the sales teams. So we had joint teams working on things to create category solutions, to create promotional solutions that were going to advantage our customer, not just build our brand, but having those teams working together. And interestingly, we presenting those ideas, we'd get the sales team to present the ideas to their other colleagues, not the marketer trying to sell to a sales team about what they wanted to do. We got teams working on it and often the sales representative on the team would talk about why this idea was a great idea, poacher, term gamekeeper. And you sort of sit back and think, that was not my idea, it was one of my team's ideas. And you think it was absolute genius because it was now became our idea, our ambition. Not a marketing versus sales.

[John Evans]

That's a genius bit of advice. I love that I often say to people, let other people tell your story because it's so much more credible, isn't it, if it comes from someone else. That's a really good tip.

[Keris Bright]

And it wasn't my natural style. I kind of want us to be amazing group that's showing that we have impact. And it was just through. Yes, on my team were a bit smarter, a bit more EQ you in that sense. And they said, why don't we run this project like this? And I think it could be more effective because we were testing quite radically some assumptions around promotional effectiveness. We weren't spending money on the wrong things. So we were challenging quite a lot of what the teams had been doing. Not an easy thing to do, but having them work with the data, work with us on it, it turned to be really effective.

[John Evans]

But also even in the way you tell the story about the 4 to 1 ratio in terms of where profit comes from you're using data very clearly to show the commercial opportunity and then marketing and supporting with the execution. Execution of that.

[Keris Bright]

And then you think, well, what are you going to fill that space with? It's got to be great. And then, well, we've got a ton of innovation that we think is going to drive up your profitability and it's going to add more value. And you better have the innovation and you better have the marketing that really connects the audience into that stuff. So you've got to deliver underneath it. Yeah, but actually, luckily, with a brand like Dulux, actually it's a phenomenally good brand, but with a very clear purpose. Actually, I think it's quite interesting. We sort of articulated it, which is the time it was your dad's favorite paint brand. Actually, it dad's favorite paint brand in a category that's all driven by young women. So not such a great thing. And so we said, how do you take your dad's favorite paint brand to be a brand that's synonymous with young people? The explosion, the changing room effect, explosion of interior design. And someone is synonymous with color. So we had to go from being your dad's favorite paint brand and white paint to a brand that was dynamic and synonymous with color. So it had a very clear sort of sense of what we're trying to do, not just because we thought that was the right way of building the brand and connecting with our customers. Colored paint is a lot more profitable than selling white paint. So it was in all of our interests that we sold a lot more color paint than white paint. And so it had a very clear the brand idea, the purpose, and we ultimately made it a very big idea to add color to people's lives. Called let's Color was always rooted in a business imperative of driving business growth. Absolutely linked to a truth about the customer and the audience. And then that would actually really drive the business. And so it ended up being that sense of how color can have an impact on your life became a very big purposeful idea. But it wasn't me that understood the power of purpose at that time. It was a new CEO joined the organization, actually an ex Unilever CEO that in the last couple of years that I was there really unlocked for me actually the critical role of marketing to mobilize an organization behind a common purpose and actually to do something that's more powerful for your audience, which is to do something which actually has a bigger purpose in the world, but has commercial benefit.

[John Evans]

But that's where purpose is done, right, Isn't it and that's a really, really good example because it's rooted in an absolute truth about the people you're doing. It's authentic to what you do, it's quartered while you exist and it makes profit.

[Keris Bright]

Right.

[John Evans]

Which is what you're here to do. So it's aligned, you're right.

[Keris Bright]

That sort of Venn diagram of, you know, category insights, consumer insight, a societal insight, a consumer insight and a brand insight. Because we also with Dulux understood the science of color. We really understood the science of color. So it's like that was a sweet spot brand idea. What was interesting, I was very excited about it because I could see how it's going to connect with the audience. I could see how it was going to grow with customers. And that's where my excitement was. And it took this a new CEO joining us who's actually ex Unilever. And this is way before Paul Polman and what this is way before that actually this gentleman called techscunning. He was the ultimate purpose led marketer. He joined the organization when we had been ICI been acquired by our biggest competitor. Actually we acquired by Axonabel. That's quite a challenge being acquired by your biggest competitor. We were actually then asked to lead that integration. And a year into that acquisition a new CEO joined. He could see the power of this idea that why we existed to add color to people's lives was not just a great way of connecting audiences or customers with us. He saw it as way as galvanizing an organization that was still two companies, two ex competitors, former ICI and former Axon. He knew he had to galvanize the organization and he said I want to use this idea to galvanize this organization behind a new purpose of why we exist. We've left, we leave the past behind. And I had never thought about that. I was thinking about my role to grow customers, to grow the business. He was thinking about the power of an idea to mobilise and this organization to take us to a better place. And it was pretty challenging time for a whole bunch of other reasons which I won't go into. But in terms of a learning, it was probably one of the most powerful learning experience in my life. And when we took that idea into the organization and said look, this is why we exist, it's like adding color to people's lives. It improves worlds, improves our customers. World painters can have a brighter future. We created a whole internal plan around it and it can help our lives. Adding color to our lives. Why are offices so boring? Why don't we add color to our offices? Why don't we help all of us understand the power of color? So we did all of these programs inside and outside the organization and it really, really helped drive a new sort of a feeling for the organization behind a new common purpose. We were now the new Axonabel, not the two former fighting competitors. But critically, it also drove a lot of growth through the organization. So let's color. And I still see it on cans and vans today, and that's sort of like 15 years ago. So a great learning experience that's really powerful.

[John Evans]

There's some good data on it. Actually, Peter Field did a a report on purpose a couple of years ago and he's looking at the IPA database and whether purpose gives brands an advantage or not. Now, overall purpose led campaigns did slightly worse than non purpose led campaigns. Of course the headline was, you know, purpose doesn't work. He then drilled into when it works and why it works, when it works sort of thing. And what the interesting observation is, exactly as we've said, it's true to your core reason for existing is, you know, does work, of course. But the interesting other observation is particularly works for recruiting people and for internal employee engagement and satisfaction. And we forget that sometimes in all the critique of purpose in communication, often the role is actually about what's the organization here to do Great.

[Keris Bright]

And we use it as a growth strike. We use it to get distribution. So we'd work with distribution partners to say, look, come and exist with us on this and let's invest in communities. So it really wasn't just a comms thing that we think is a nice thing to say. It was core to why we did what we did. And it was a way of growing the business and building, sort of mobilizing the organization. Everyone was quite. It was interesting because I was part of this acquisition. Culturally it's very challenging. And it was very challenging because we were acquired by our competitor. And the organization has spent the last 50 years trying to kill each other. And it's quite hard because you don't like each other. Where you do business.

[John Evans]

That's what the truce in World War I. When they come over, you come together.

[Keris Bright]

It'S like, oh, let's create this new business. Like, well, hang on a minute. We spent all our lives trying to fight each other and kill each other in the marketplace. Now let's work as a team. And it was an insight. It was insight about how you just get an organization away from what it used to be to go behind a New common sense of direction. So yeah, so that was, that was, that was, that was towards the end, that was the last couple of years.

[John Evans]

I'd love it. Lovely example. My creature on purpose. I was working on Lucas Aid Sport and the brand had been in long term decline. So, you know, high single digit decline every year. Cattery under threat, space in store under threat, seen as an outdated brand. And the team came up with this beautiful positioning called Made to Move. And the insight was just as human beings, we are made to move and we feel better, we work better, everything, you know, live longer if we move more. And so we decided that, you know, as human beings we're made to move. And Luke said is here to help. And suddenly we viewed everything through that lens is what we're doing helping people to move more. Wherever you are, whoever you are, whatever you know, your ability is, et cetera, et cetera, it's a lovely galvanizing thing. And I remember, so I was the marketing director at the time and then I was in charge of basically announcing this new brand strategy to all our customers in the annual, in the autumn you have your annual sell in for the following year. And the very, very first customer I had to present this new strategy to was Greg's the baker. Which is a very big, as you can imagine me like going, I got the brief like, John, we need you for the first half an hour. You inspire them and you know, you're leading and then we'll do our JBP negotiations next. But you're up first, right? You know, give it, inspire the Greg's exec on your new campaign. And I'm thinking, I could not think of a single way in on this. This is so difficult. Gregg's sausage rolls. Where do I go with it? Anyway? So I just thought, oh, I'll just do it, I'll just give it, give it all the barrels. And I started talking about it and then they stopped me halfway through and we go, we've got an idea. I'm like, what is this idea? This is absolutely perfect for our business. I'm like, I don't understand what you mean. They said, can you make an app that tracks how people in Greg's mood? And the biggest problem we've got is we have lots of people that are overweight because all they do all day is go take the sausage rolls out the oven, put them over the counter, right? Oh, right, yeah. So internally within Greggs1, their biggest HR problems was they're not encouraging a healthy living because people are getting, obviously they can have free Greggs or whatever. But what they suddenly saw in the idea wasn't what I thought, which is a consumer idea. It was actually internal employee engagement. So they said, right, the biggest thing I do next year is get stores competing on a step basis. Can we encourage our staff to move more and exercise to compensate for this was also when Pasty Gate was happening, you know what I mean? So they had a reputational issue. It's one of those things. I did not realize that. And actually the campaign, although it was successful from a consumer point of view, we just pivoted straight away and went, this is a great B2B thing, right? How can we help our customers help their employees to move more? And then suddenly it changed every conversation we ever had. So just the power of a. Power of B2B. We forget, don't we, that even in the most B2C, you know, brands you have a B2B.

[Keris Bright]

Yes. There is a relationship, there is a gatekeeper.

[John Evans]

Exactly. That gets you there.

[Keris Bright]

That can affect. Well, how smart of that Greg's person. And then for you.

[John Evans]

Yeah, completely shocked me because I was honestly, I was thinking on my finger, I cannot connect this strategy to what they want. And surprisingly was the best, the best selling I ever did that year was, was amazing. And you had a little stint in private equity, didn't you? Just to turn to that because it connects to your ICI role, don't you? A bit later you then go, you find yourself in private equity.

[Keris Bright]

Yeah. So the CEO I was working for in ici paint gentleman called David Hamill, he actually left when we were acquired. So he managed the first year of the integration. He then left because they wanted people to move to Amsterdam. And he was like, that's not for me. So we always knew he would lead us through the first year. And a lot of the leadership board, interestingly, even though we've been acquired by axo, they acquired us because we've built global businesses in often emerging markets that they hadn't been able to do. And we were a consumer facing business and they were much stronger than B2B. And they said, we want to grow in your area. So most of the management team they put together was former ICI people, including the CEO. It's quite very brave of them to do that, to say, look, we've acquired this business because we want these skills and this culture. Please help us. And so David was leading that. But just for the first year. We always knew he would leave after that. And he was one of those leaders that you, you, you know you follow? He made a pivotal impact on my career. He'd created the first CMO job in ICO paints for me and we went on a journey together. So when he left, that was quite tough. And then a couple of years later, he turned up somewhere else working with Bain Capital. And I was at British Airways at the time and they were recreating the role that I'd gone there to do and that wasn't quite what I wanted to do. And he actually said, look, do you know what we did? ICI want to come and work in private equity. Turning around businesses is really exciting. It's really hard, but it's really exciting. I'm doing something where they need people with consumer skills, brand building skills, innovation skills. Do you want to come be part of this management team? And I thought, you know, that probably now fits me a bit better. And it felt like it was the right role. And I also went because I trusted him a lot as a leader and I thought, if anyone can lead a business through transformation and turnaround, he can do that and I might learn something along the way. So I went into working with Bain Capital, into what people thought, well, you've gone from big brands into this, really. It's a bathroom business. You can sell bloody toilets. How interesting is that? And I was like, oh, yeah, God, I quite thought about that. But actually, for me, I'm like, bathrooms are amazing spaces. Because you don't forget I'm an interior design fanatic. And I'm thinking, how you create a functioning, beautiful bathroom really matters to your life. And I was really into it. And we would go to these big trade shows. There was one every year in Germany called Ish, which was football pitches full of all of the bathroom show houses. And for me, it was what I would love to spend my time doing, walking around these amazing interior design sets. And I'm thinking, and this is now my job. So for me, I didn't. I never saw it quite that way. I saw it as a great opportunity to invigorate Idol. Standard was an old brand, had a lot of heritage. It was very B2B. They wanted it to be B2C. How'd you get into showrooms and DIY and make a consumer facing brand out of this? And I kind of thought, oh, I think I can do that. And it goes back to your point you made earlier, John, which is. It's a small business. It was a billion pound turnover or something compared to British airways, which is 7 billion. But I was in charge of quite a lot all the Product development, all the innovation, all the, you know, trying to get into showrooms design. And we rebuilt a brand from scratch. How am I going to position this? What's the language, the identity, the visual language of it, the purpose of the idea? And we had this idea about a useful use of space because this was a bathroom business that understood the ergonomics of how to design something. So it was all about the beautiful use of space. And we had ideas where we actually did research, where we put all done in the right way, heat cameras into people's bathrooms and we looked at how they use their space and where all the wasted space was and how we could then help them redesign their bathrooms, of course, using our stuff to make a beautifully functioning space. And so it actually was one of those cases where it's a small business, but I can, I've got a train set to play with. And if you have to grow your idea and build, grow your brand with consumers. We had, I had this great opportunity and I hired a few brilliant people, small teams. The budgets were not huge, the ambition was massive. Hired a few brilliant agency people who created some fantastic work for us. And so I look back on that. I think the impact on the business of the brand in all of its incarnation, including a whole new pricing strategy and all of that that we created is probably one of the most impactful things that I've probably done because it touched every part of the business. That said it was in when the world was still in economic downturn from the credit crunch crisis, we couldn't turn around the business. I learned so much about fixed costs and variable costs. You've no idea what. When you've got a kiln running, you have to fill it with volume because you can't just turn the fires off. I learned that we've, you know, when your volume's disappearing, that cost base goes in the wrong direction. I learned so much more about working capital cash flow. Not in a good, in a good way commercially, but it was not great for the business. So even though the ambition was huge and the things we were doing, amazing, we were working hard to hold still. And ultimately most of our, many of our competitors are going out of business. We sold a piece of the business to raise capital to go into big restructuring program. And that was quite sad. I was shareholder in that business. I was part of the management team that knew it was the right thing to do. There's no question you have to do that. You've got to save the business, you've got to go into restructuring it Meant the writings on the wall was, you don't need me and my team. So I kind of made myself redundant a bit faster than I thought. I had a plan or I'll leave in six months. And they're like, no, you're right, why don't you go now? So that was quite hard actually. So I loved it. It was really tough. I learned a ton. And then I was out of a job and I was out of a job and you know, you've seen my trajectory for the first time in 20 odd years and that's pretty sobering. I luckily had got a bit of a month redundancy payout, so I wasn't struggling to pay the mortgage the next month. I had a bit of time to work out, but I had not been out of a job, not been out of gainful employment even since I started my PhD. So that's a savoring time in your life when you got time to step back by, a lot of time to step back and think about, well, that didn't quite work out. I went there to turn around a business, we hope to sell it, be successful, move on to other things. It didn't work out. And then you have to sort of think, what am I going to do? How's that?

[John Evans]

I resonate a lot with that. I mean, I did on a much smaller scale, something a bit similar. So I was at Britvic Soft Drinks. I'd done, you know, big, big brands have been relatively successful, I like to think. And then I'd gone into private equity a bit similar to you. And I met this private equity company and they said, we've just bought a juice brand that no one's ever heard of. It's a food service only brand. It looks like it's been designed in a cash and carry on a Friday afternoon. You know, it was, you know, it was sort of very anonymous, very generic and this sort of thing. And we want to turn it into a leading retail brand of juice. And I was like, fantastic. You know, I do that. I'm like, this is great. You know, I love taking something that looks so desperately, you know, difficult because you can make so much more impact. But actually my story is very similar to yours because I mean, I mean, I learned so much. I mean, exactly as you say. Like, you know, we had to make people redundant or the lease on the factory was running out or we had to, you know, remortgage the, you know, the site or whatever, you know, all the industrial disputes to sort out. And it's funny, I Suddenly realized that the marketing bit of my job was like 10%, it was like the optional bit, but actually running a business and cash flow and all that kind of thing was the main thing. But I remember, I mean, I learned so much that the, the advice they, they gave me when I started there was they're the philosophy of doing two, three things. Number one, really invest in your positioning and your brand identity and what you stand for. They would literally say, hire the best agency on the planet to help make sure you have ultra clarity on why you here and why exist and how you look. Second thing, hire a management team at least two rungs above the management team you think you need, you know, sort of thing. So, you know, we were all over qualified. I know that's why they approached me. They're like, you know, you know, what happens next, you know, where we're going, that kind of thing. And then the third thing was invest in efficiency and capacity so you have a sustainable business model that will last five years that you can kind of sell on. And they were very good about it. And I remember we sat together and we actually wrote the exit plan on day one. We like, what do we think needs to happen in the future for us to be a success and how's that going to work? And it was great. A bit like you though. Things changed on the journey and they had, in this case, they had other businesses they'd invested in and they were managing the portfolio businesses and they were failing in other businesses and they asked us to all effectively double what we're committed to do and extend the ownership for twice the length of time. And for me personally, having put all my savings in, I couldn't go that long for starters. And I wasn't going to get out what I thought I was going to get out by doing it. So even though being successful, the context just changed on me. And then a bit like you and then you suddenly think, what do you do for that?

[Keris Bright]

There are some things you can control. I mean, we had a very sobering meeting because we knew the markets were tough with McKinsey. They were doing a blueprint for us. And all of us, as you say, we were all massively overqualified for our jobs. Sat around this table and them telling us about what the prognosis was for the marketplace and what we're doing. I remember them saying all of our experiences, bad markets trump good management teams pretty much every time.

[John Evans]

That's sobering, isn't it?

[Keris Bright]

And we were sat there thinking, oh, oh dear, we think we are this dream team and we are in hideous marketplaces and it's for us it's not always the case. There will be the exception that proves the rule. But actually we were not the exception. We were that rule.

[John Evans]

That's probably the reverse, isn't it? Is that expand, rapidly expanding market probably raises poor management teams as well, doesn't it? The reverse of that.

[Keris Bright]

Spot on. So we couldn't do what we needed to do and I mean Bain Capital, the people there, they invested twice. There's some very smart people that lost quite a lot of money and we all thought we were the people to turn it around. And I think, I'm not even sure, I think it still might be private, I'm not sure. But it didn't work out. And so yeah, got to move on now.

[John Evans]

Everyone listening is probably shouting in my head going John, when we're going to talk about the B2C because you've been chatting away about some amazing experience and and by the way thank you because you know your experience through that is incredible and there's a lot to learn from and I haven't even touched on the fact that you worked at the B at British Airways and Virgin. So very just before we get into BBC what's it like going from British Airways to Virgin because they're two ultra competitors. They look and feel totally different from the outside in terms of what they stand for and how they look up. But what was that like?

[Keris Bright]

Well, I went to British Airways because I was a gold card holder. I was a frequent flyer doing a lot of traveling and a very and a proud British Airways gold card fly but felt I could help the airline because as a customer I thought they could do better. And I just working with techs and on purpose I thought I think this organization and we said lost its mojo. And I was asked and Drew Crawley who recruited me for that role and I really loved Drew and went there to work for him and he said look I really want to do something different here. And it's a very commercial role the way it was constructed at the time a lot of customer, the customer team was going to be part of that team. So a big role but really want to help get this airlines mojo back. And so I sort of went in with thinking I can really help this organization help get its purpose back and and I think even though I was there for a short period of time, I think really helped to do that. We really focused on how are we going to compete because it was getting squeezed between low cost airlines and then airlines with unlimited pockets, deep pockets to invest in the customer experience. How are we going to do that? We did a bit of work and basically said, look, we'll win by making people feel special. We'll use data, we know a lot about our customers, we can use data to unlock making that a special relationship. So we had this whole program around how we're going to make people feel more special even if they can't have everything they want when they're flying. But it will feel special because we are human beings running this airline and we'll make our customers feel special. And a lot of the insights where it's amazing how a pilot walking down the back of the aircraft and saying hello to your 5 year old son is going to think may the thing that makes you love that airline for your life, not whether you got a better packet of crisps or not, it's the human experience, it's how you're made to feel. Of course you need a fairly decent seat and a bottle of water, but so we were tapping into that. So we did quite a bit of strategy work on how we're going to do that and then working with the pilots. At one I had an amazing meeting with pilots and I talked to them about it, what had been like to be a frequent flyer and how I felt when the impact that they had to me when I got on a plane from flying back from Japan, which is an interesting culture and if you've been away for two weeks in Japan, suddenly you get on the aircraft and they say good morning ladies and gentlemen, welcome British Airways and you're home. And I talked about that and they were losing connections with their customers and, and I was like, you've no idea the impact. In fact, putting pilots out front in cabins again was one of the initiatives we had which said they welcomed you onto the airline, you couldn't go into the cabin anymore because we know 911 stopped that interaction. But the fact that pilots stood outside and welcomed when you came was one of those initiatives because it makes people feel great about who they're flying with. And working with the most brilliant Nigel Bogle at bbh, a man who's had a big impact on my life and learning. We worked together on how through communication we could unlock the power of the airline. And through that we worked with to fly to serve. Because to fly to serve is written on all of the planes, it's in the pilots uniforms, it's stitched in that their role in life is to fly to serve. And we felt at that time with strikes and ash clouds that the organization had lost touch with why it exists, which is they are the experts in flying, the safety of flying, but they're there to serve. And the quality of service and British service and the Britishness of the experience of being fair and quality and that spirit was being lost a little bit. And so this was an idea to help the organization. It was inside out. So trying to take my learning from, from from AXO and text gunning an inside out idea to help the organization get its mojo back. And the expression of it was very much to flight to serve. Now ba great large organization complex. Probably quite a lot of parallels to what it feels like to be at BBC I have to say. Come on to that bit later. But then after my year of sabbatical I was actually attracted to Virgin Media and I actually after taking that year off where I wasn't sure I wanted another job, I then was really attracted by the opportunity that came because very data, very digital subscriber driven business. I didn't have experience of driving subscription businesses and to work with the Virgin brand I thought was like an opportunity beyond belief. So that was, that's why I kind of came back big time into the world of work and Virgin. Yes, I mean Virgin Media, it's a wholly owned business but you're part of, they are part of the Virgin Group. You get to work with the Virgin Group but you mostly get to try and live the Virgin values and they are clear, they're writ large. And a couple of them I take with me through my life actually, which is being straight up. I try and use that a lot in business and as a leader. But one of their values from a brand is being red hot. And we felt a Virgin Media, some of the communication and the way we talk to customers was not really treating customers in the way a Virgin brand should treat a customer. And so part of the brief there was can we just get a bit hotter, dial a bit more red hot back into the Virgin brand. But it's brilliant being part of that group because you can learn from others and everyone else who's been a pioneer, a Virgin and even talked to Rich himself about what it really is at the essence to be a Virgin brand. And even though this is a Virgin Media, it's a very competitive, very dynamic, very commercial business. Yeah, you've got to deliver the numbers, that's for sure. But I was trying to also build up me a bit more of that red hot brand spirit so they would drive the numbers. And so that, that was a bit about Virgin Media and the two businesses. Ba. Yeah, it was quite interesting to be at meetings with the airline people and I'm like, sorry, because they, I remember someone talking about they're working at Virgin Atlantic and they said, yeah. But during those three years BA then got their mojo back and they did. And I was a bit like, I'm sorry because it didn't help the Virgin Atlantic business at that time BA really started to. To work. So that was quite strange being in the same room as the Virgin Atlantic people. But at that point I was pretty happy to be part of a Virgin business actually as a brand builder. It's amazing.

[John Evans]

Well, from one iconic British brand, I mean you must tick the box for iconic.

[Keris Bright]

You like your British brand.

[John Evans]

You do, don't you? You should be have some kind of like damehood or something for services to Britain. You're right, I should we drop that in the New Year's honors. Whoever's watching or listening. Kerris Bright, ladies and gentlemen, give her a dam hood. But yeah, one iconish British brand to another, the BBC. I mean like that is. That's the crown jewels, isn't it? I mean if ever you had responsibility for managing a brand that everyone loves is, is trusted around the world, is, you know, put on a pedestal sometimes, I suspect. And that's one of the challenges. What, what are you here to do for the brand in your role as kind of chief customer officer?

[Keris Bright]

Wow. Essential. When I took the phone call, I really wasn't sure because I was loving Virgin Media and I thought the BBC as a, as a customer leader, a marketer, am I really going to have an impact? And I was really worried. I heard the BBC is going to be tough to work in. I wasn't sure it was the right thing. My head was saying, don't do this. My heart, however, and as a Brit, you're like, how can I not try or at least want to be part of this organization? And I'm so grateful that I heart won overhead and I made the leap and I came here and originally the role was, was sort of designed to sort of say, look, we've got these incredible data sets of customer data through the license fee and count data through asking people to sign the BBC and we think we can develop a more personal relationship with our audiences and we want someone who can come in and help do that. It was quite a loose brief and also, yes, you'll run a few things and it was quite hard to work out quite really what they wanted me to do and why they wanted me to do it. And it was the first time that role had existed. There'd been of course a CMO and good CMOs where marketing and the audience's team, which is all the insight and data were sat together. But this was the first time they put the license fee unit, which is the revenue generating team that's accountable for collecting £3.8 billion worth of revenue from the license fee, which essentially is the biggest CRM machine in the UK outside of the NHS and hmrc. First time they put all that together. And so I'm not sure quite that what he wanted me to do, but I've kind of designed what I thought I could do and try. And I mean they wanted a very much commercial person into this organization. So they wanted to bring in some customer centered, customer growth thinking into the organization. So they hired a commercial person to do that. And so that's what I've tried to bring in and what I've really tried to do and in particular over the last four years is a couple of things. One is the uniqueness of this organization, this wonderful beautiful torture that we say we live with inside the BBC is we have to exist for everybody in the uk. If you consume live telly and iplayer, you have to pay, you have to pay the same thing. If you do, you have to pay for us if you do that. And we have to do that for everybody. So unlike every other job I've had where I segment my audience precisely work out who wants more, who's going to charge, who can get to do more for. So they want to love me more and pay more, I cannot ask anyone to pay more. I can't do more for some audiences so they pay more. I have to create, work out how to help this organization create enough value for everybody. So one of the first things I did is luckily by putting these teams together in these data sets a year in one of my audience's team, guy called Nick north, who's brilliant, came to me and said, look, we've got this cross media measurement tool that actually for the first time we think we can codify what a valuable relationship behaviorally looks like with the BBC. If you do this, you're willing to pay for us. And we codified that threshold of value. It's like a value daily habit. If you have this relationship with us, if you spend five hours over five days and two or more modes so you watch and listen or you watch and go online, if you do that, it's enough and you'll want to pay. And we've Got many people that we're doing way more than that for, but they pay the same. But critically, you've got a lot of people that are not getting enough value, you aren't serving them enough. So how can you, with this threshold measure of customer value, help the organization understand how to orient what it makes to get enough value for everybody? So I would say the one thing I think I'm most proud of inside the BBC, and it took a couple years to do it, is to put a measure of customer value at the heart of the BBC that now sits on our audience scorecard that everyone in the BBC, particularly in the uk, is trying to work to do. We know the segments for whom we get enough value. With those that don't. We look at the return on investment of all of our content. Charlotte Moore and her TV team or audio team. Deborah Turner's own news team, Roger in his nation's team. We're all working to one big audience map and an understanding of who gets value, who thinks the BBC is for them and who doesn't and how do we help those that don't get enough. And it's driving a lot of decision making where we put our money across the BBC. It's probably not what you'd expect out of this job, but it's like with an organization like this that doesn't have a P and L and how do you understand what customer value needs to look like? We codified it, it's now driving all the decision making it feels when people come here, we talk about people that might churn out of paying the license fee. I've put a propensity to churn model into the BBC. It was like, God, this feels a bit like a commercial business. And I'm like, yeah, funnily enough, if you hire someone like me, it's going to be a bit like that. But mostly we're here to get enough value for everyone so they value us critically because we feel that the world and the UK is better off with the BBC. We think we've got three critical roles to play if we don't exist, won't happen. Which is to pursue truth with no agenda other than the audience's agenda to back homegrown storytelling and talent that tells our stories with our talent. Because if we don't exist, trust me, the global players will not invest. They might say they do, but they won't. So we feel like we belong so the cultural, the culture of the UK can stay intact and to bring people together when others seek to divide. We are Unique because of big events, whether it's sport or the things that drive the nation or the big TV moments, We seek to bring people together, communities together, because we think we're better off together than as divided. So we think we're fighting against some pretty powerful forces and we believe we are valuable to the UK and to the world. And those three roles are kind of driving what we do. And so, having first put value at the heart of the BBC and customer value, the thing I'm now really, really trying to do is really connect audiences with the brand of the BBC. Many people use us. In fact, 90% of the UK uses the UK every month, and we are pretty much consumed by everybody. But they don't often know that they touch the BBC. With this amazing piece of research where we took the BBC away from people for two weeks or for 10 days and said, right, we're going to give you 13 pounds, because that's what the two weeks of BBC cost at that time. We're going to take the BBC away. You cannot watch, listen, go online and consume the BBC. They had to do it. We took families away from it. And at the start, majority of them said, well, I don't really use the BBC live without it. We shouldn't have to pay the license fee, don't use it enough. Maybe watch it once or twice a month. When we went back, they're like, please, can I have it back? I didn't realize I can't watch much of the day. I didn't realize I can't watch EastEnders. I didn't realize I listened to Radio 2 in the car. I didn't realize I listened To 5 live or the Cricket. I didn't realize that Nan really loves Radio 3. We didn't realize we can't go to news online. We didn't realize when something's happening in the world, I can't watch the BBC news. We didn't realize actually the role that you play in our lives and you kind of think, and if ever that is a marketing challenge or communication challenge, it's like people are consuming you, they are using you, you've solved that. They just don't know it. And part of my job is to make sure people are aware much more of the BBC that they do love, that they love us a bit more and they value us a bit more and maybe understand that our existence is better for all of us, that we all contribute something, but that we all get something out of it and that society gets something bigger out of it as a result of us Existing. And now that is probably, I would say my big task is really driving advocacy for the BBC brand and wanting and helping people love us a bit more and be a bit more valued.

[John Evans]

It's our challenge, isn't it? Because I think whereas with, I don't know, sky subscription on Netflix, you, You opt in, don't you? You make that conscious choice of, you know, is 5.99amonth or 50,000 months, which I know exactly. I'm trying to think of the lowest Netflix subscription. Maybe it's 999 now, who knows? But you know, you're making a conscious decision, aren't you? You're doing the equation in your head thinking, do I want to watch that series? How often do I watch tv? I think with you, everyone's grown up with it on the radio, in the living room. When you go abroad, you know, you think, oh, where can I get my news now? I'll try and find BBC Worldwide, you know, the World Service to try and, you know, know what's going on. If something's happened, you know, remember that in 911 I was in the Maldives, you know, and you do, you go for it. And that's a hard thing to convey the fact value of, isn't it? It must be very challenging.

[Keris Bright]

It is. And let's be also honest, audience behavior is changing quite a lot. So many younger people, or really digitally savvy people consume much less of the type of thing we do. Our competitors are gaming the, you know, social media. So there really are some big societal shifts and audience shifts that really, really mean that we have to stay relevant, really be on top of our game to ensure that we stay relevant for the next hundred years. So this is not an easy task by any way, that there are trends that we have to be really mindful of. But yeah, just helping people understand the role and value of BBC in their life today. And also, yeah, getting people to consume us a bit more, making more of the things that they really love. Particularly for some audiences that don't get as much value out of us that they should because they pay and they need to get more value from us. So that's the job.

[John Evans]

So a tricky question. So if I was to think about the BBC and what brand attributes I applied to BBC, it would be trust, wouldn't it? And you think about, where do I believe the news is coming from, that sort of thing. What happens when, I mean, like Hugh Edwards, the story blew up. I mean, that must provide you with some pretty hard challenges and particularly when, I mean, I'm fascinated. You're reporting on that news story as well. Which is a really old position to be in, isn't it?

[Keris Bright]

Like it is strange.

[John Evans]

And I think the only way you can be trusted is to report on it honestly as well.

[Keris Bright]

Yes. And people probably don't realize and they probably don't believe us. But I can say as an outsider that's come in BBC News is editorially independent from the management of the BBC. We have no control over what BBC News reports on. They have to report fairly and impartially on the events of the day. And if the events of the day and the news is about the BBC they have to report on that in a way. And we do not, I find that we do not go downstairs and say can you spin it this way? There is no control. And in fact they probably over index slightly because of the desire to show impartiality and distance, editorial distance from the corporation and probably talk a little bit too much about the BBC. But it they are. The news organization is editorially independent. They are free to talk about the stories of the day, including us. In fact they have we. Yeah, we have to hold power to account and if we are the power or some of our talents power is being used in an appropriate. They have to hold us to account in that. That is life of being here. When you're inside it, it can be frustrating and challenging because you kind of think don't do that. We need people to love us. But it's powerful the fact that we have the editorial independence so we'll preserve it. That's why we're here.

[John Evans]

Worse advantage than a disadvantage I imagine because you kind of forced to, you know, to talk about it. How do you win back that? I mean do you measure trust? Because I'd imagine that's a high key.

[Keris Bright]

Yeah. So we measure a lot of things. I mean we've got a couple of five big metrics at the top of our scorecard. Universality matters to us. We need to be used every month, every week. So we measure who uses is us. We, we measure are we fair and balanced? So actually are you trusted? Is whether people see you as fair and balanced? Yeah, that's the key measure we measure. That's right at the top of our scorecard. We measure people whether they consume us, whether they choose us often. That's that sort of value daily habit metric. More and more we measure actually at online reach how many people are engaging the BBC digitally and in assigned an account. We've got like five big metrics at the top of the scorecard, but trust. So RBC is fair and balanced. We absolutely measure it and measure it globally. And BBC News is the most trusted news brand globally. And that's really important to us. And we absolutely want to preserve that and drive that forward.

[John Evans]

Now, one of the interesting challenges in your particular role is you're marketing probably some of the best content that ever existed in the world, Whether it's David Attenborough doing Blue Planet. Well, you know what I mean. You've got some incredible. But you're not an advertiser, I suppose, in the traditional sense, are you? But you are obviously communicating to an audience.

[Keris Bright]

The big difference being here than in many other businesses. Marketing is usually the most interesting storyteller of an organization. It's often one of the most creative parts in organizations seen to be the creative engine that takes other products and services and maybe makes them more interesting to the audience. That is not our job here. This is an organization of storytellers, the most brilliant storytellers, whether they're journalists or whether they're drama storytellers or their comedians. This is an organization of storytellers. And so our job as sort of brand builders is to engage audiences in that content and of course to make sure they ladder up to the BBC and so to make that content famous, hopefully and critically attributed to the BBC. It's quite hard. Everyone loves traitors. My job is not just to get them to love traitors, to make them should realize that it comes from the BBC. So support us, otherwise you may not get more traitors. So making sure that people understand that content, making that content famous, loved and out there. And historically there may have been a much less role for marketing because we've got so much owned media. People were sat in front of four BBC channels or listening to our radio channels. But the world, as you'll know, is not like that these days. You know, proliferation of channels. So actually we are. I buy media. I absolutely plan and use my owned media. Television, racings, GRPs, digital display. We plan and own that as sharply as anybody. It's not as personalized as likely to be, but that's coming. It's run like a proper commercial organization. And we buy media, we buy cinema, we buy out of home, we buy commercial radio. We treat it like an organization. And why that matters more than ever is because our audiences aren't just sat in front of our channels. I have to go and reach them on social, on digital or out. I have to go more often and find people to attract them into the BBC. They're often paying and I need them to get more value from BBC. So actually the role of marketing to help audiences discover our content is, as is critical more than ever. But I don't have to be the most powerful storyteller, but trying to add up the story of the BBC is actually quite hard because individually, it's easy to get people to have traitors, but to make people understand that all of that drama, all of that comedy, all of that music, all that news has come to BBC is actually quite hard. But that's. That's the joy. The joy. Right.

[John Evans]

Tracer is great. I mean, I actually applied for it last season. I didn't get. I didn't get through. I was thinking. I was just. It was more. I don't know, I. I love it. I love the format.

[Keris Bright]

What would you be? Traitor.

[John Evans]

I would, I would. I was going to do a social experiment because I just thought I spend all my time convincing people to do things right in terms of, you know, sales and marketing. I interview and meet a lot of people and I have to get to know them and understand them very, very quickly. So, so anyway, so, so my pitch was, you know, as a podcaster and as a promoter, effectively my job is to meet people, build relationships quickly, convince them of things. And I just. As a social experiment, I'd love to take part in it.

[Keris Bright]

You know, keep applying.

[John Evans]

I know I have to again, but.

[Keris Bright]

It'S going to be more serious.

[John Evans]

Amazing.

[Keris Bright]

We have celebrity traders, of course.

[John Evans]

Is that. Oh, I didn't know all that. Didn't know that.

[Keris Bright]

That's casting. That's going to be pretty interesting.

[John Evans]

Yeah. Oh, yes, no spoilers here. Yeah, very good. That's very clever twist.

[Keris Bright]

I like that. And it is a druid to actually market that, if you call it marketing, that. Interestingly, when you've got a new series, no one knows about that, trying to engage people in new things is sometimes quite hard because how do you introduce that? And we try and get talked about and as marketers, what we often do is like, well, we don't invest right up front, you don't know whether it's going to connect, but if it catches fire, you then invest behind. And something like Traitors is a brilliant example of that. We could see quite quickly, it was really getting talked about. The social media conversations were amazing because it is incredible, isn't it? I absolutely love it. And we then just really pumped in behind that, a lot of marketing expenditure to get people to know that, to draw them in. So we sort of like wait for it to Catch fire a bit and then really sort of like go behind. Then you get series two, series three. That is amazing because you've got people you want to engage in. Series one, engage in series two. So from a marketing perspective, it's fascinating to engage people. We absolutely love it.

[John Evans]

Any tips for anyone listening about how to make content that really engages and catches fire? Because, I mean, you've got the ultimate war chest of amazing content to work with, haven't you?

[Keris Bright]

Yeah, but choosing what to talk about, that's half of our job actually, because there are so many things and we do do a lot of marketing. But you got to choose what you're going to choose to engage audiences in. Is it going to build the brand? Is it a going to drive the audiences, the ones that you really want to drive to your platform, disproportionately investing in those underserved audiences, are you going to build your brand in the way that you want to build it? If I did everything around traitors or things we might have acquired for the platform, does that build the role of the BBC in the way that I want to build it? That people realize that we're different than other organizations? Probably not. It's got to be a balancing act. So we'll also talk about journalism and the fact that we'll pursue truth with no agenda. And in fact, I mean, tomorrow, October 3rd, we'll launch of a big new campaign for BBC News or BBC that talks about the fight for truth is on. The fact that trust is earned is about the fight against disinformation. So from a brand building perspective, we're also having to choose what are the things that you should talk about, not just to engage audiences and you and drive audiences to your platforms and to consume you. Being consumed matters, but also to get an idea of the BBC and why you exist and help them understand that. And that is part of the challenge. So brand advocacy is audience driving as well.

[John Evans]

I like the Five Truth Zone because it does that Venn diagram you said earlier, isn't it of a proper consumer insight, who do I believe? But also it's a platform that you can own because you have owned it and you haven't got a vested corporate interest.

[Keris Bright]

And also the thing we're trying to do is lift the lid on BBC News. So one of the first campaigns we did, and this comes out of BBC Creative, this is their work. If you know how it's made, you can trust what it says. The team are trying to lift the lid on what they do and Deborah Turner is wanting to make it a more transparent organization. Because her belief is if people understand the power and why we do what we do and how we do it, it will of course earn their trust and earn their trust even more. And we then said it, we actually turned it into communication and said, you look, if you know how it's made, you can trust what it says because trust is earned. And this is when I think from when the business and marketing is in a sweet spot. For me that's a great example of that. You've got a business that's doing something competitive, relevant and true and then as communicators and marketers you sort of then take that to the organization in a really, really powerful way. And I hope, I believe your data suggests so. But I hope we can really connect with audiences and particularly audiences that may not think that BBC News in a world of TikTok and social media is a place that you should go if you really do want to know what's going on in the world.

[John Evans]

Now I'd love to carry on talking about this because there's so much we could talk about. We might have to do a follow up episode just on the BBC but I know time has got better us but maybe just finish up. You've had a really, really interesting career, kind of brand led. You've gone into, you know, something quite technical and sales organization. Then you work for iconic brands, startups, you know, and now at the BBC, what advice would you give somebody else who's kind of, you know, entering into a marketing career, wants to aspire to the kind of role you do? What, what have you learned that really stands out that makes you a success in the role that you have?

[Keris Bright]

Oh my goodness. I think first and foremost, I mean as marketers, right, always being really curious. I'm interested in what make how things work, why people do what they do. I'm interested in business, I'm interested in business models and I think that's why I've actually operated a number of different business models. I'm curious about if I understand the world of packaged goods and fast moving. How does an airline work, how does a subscription? But so I, I think it's helped me because I've been very curious. I'm as curious about the customer and why they make the choices they make. I'm really curious about the people in the organization, why they do what they do. Really important organization like the BBC because people are here for a reason. It's never about the money, it's about the belief. So I'm curious And therefore, you invest in them and understanding them, what they want to get out and what you can do to help them. And sort of remaining curious and curious also in how organizations create value. In this organization, it's audience value. In other organizations, it's customer value, it's financial value, it's profitability. I've always been interested in the commercial aspect of business, how to drive growth and how to create value. So I think being commercially savvy and interested in that has helped.

[John Evans]

Yeah, that's pretty good advice to me. Understand how money is made and understand how the customer makes sense.

[Keris Bright]

And I would say I got some really great advice quite early in my career when someone said, what are you afraid of, Karis? Why aren't you being bolder? And I'm glad they said that to me really early because it was like, what am I afraid of? I wasn't being very bold or very courageous. And the one thing I've learned is you've got to go for it, be bold. It might not all work out, as I can tell from my career, but if you aren't doing something big and courageous and bold, what's the point? So I would always say, go for the bold thing.

[John Evans]

Yeah.

[Keris Bright]

Ask for big things. Be a bit courageous, Put yourself on the line. Be good, be nice, be kind. That's what I try to sort of.

[John Evans]

I love that. And if anything, you know, it's those challenging career moments that don't go well that probably set you up for the kind of roles you've got.

[Keris Bright]

Don't get upset. How are you going to expand your comfort zone? As they say, it isn't comfortable, but when you look back, you sort of think, yeah, I'm glad I made that leap.

[John Evans]

So, yeah, well, listen, that's a beautiful place to end. Thank you so much. Caris really enjoyed this conversation. I'm sure we'll be having a lot more conversations like this in the future.

[Keris Bright]

I hope so. I really enjoyed it. Thanks very much, John. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[John Evans]

Thank you very much for listening or watching Uncensored cmo. I hope you enjoyed that. If you did, please do hit the subscribe button wherever you get your podcast. If you're watching, hit subscribe there as well. I'd also love to get a review. Reviews make a big difference on other people discovering the show. So please do leave a review wherever you get your podcast. If you want to contact me, you can do. I'm over on XcensoredCMO or on LinkedIn where I'm under my own name, John Evans. Thanks for listening and watching. I'll see you next.