Uncensored CMO: "CMO Masterclass & How to Grow Billion Dollar Brands"

Guests: Jane Wakely (Global CMO, PepsiCo), Neil Barrie (Co-founder, 21st Century Brand)
Host: Jon Evans
Date: September 17, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Jon Evans hosts a dynamic conversation between Jane Wakely, global CMO at PepsiCo, and Neil Barrie, CMO advisor and co-founder of 21st Century Brand. Jane shares her hands-on experience building and scaling iconic brands, while Neil distills research from his CMO Thrive Guide, having studied and counseled 100+ leading CMOs. Together, they deliver a masterclass on what it takes to thrive as a CMO today—balancing growth architecture, commercial strategy, creativity, and the transformation of organizational culture. The episode is packed with practical insights and vibrant stories from leading billion-dollar brands.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The CMO as Architect of Growth

[01:33] Jane Wakely:

• Jane likens the CMO role to an "architect of growth," blending science and art to bridge consumer understanding with commercial opportunity.
  • "It's not about what you're called, it's about what you do and how you impact. As an architect, you bridge the human growth opportunity together with the commercial growth opportunity."
• The analogy extends to building both vision and structure: painting an aspirational vision for the future while creating systems and culture that enable teams to thrive.

[03:06] Jane Wakely:

• The “three S’s” a CMO must bring: spark (vision), structure (roadmap), and a safety net (culture) that allows teams to innovate.
• Reference to Gaudi’s Sagrada Familia as a model for building enduring, visionary brands.
  • "He created a roadmap for others to bring his vision to life—that's what great CMOs do with brands."

2. Balancing Long-Term Vision & Short-Term Results

[05:32] Jane Wakely:

• Describes the CMO’s “tightrope walk” between delivering quarterly results and nurturing long-term brand health.
• Advocates for a human-centric approach: leading category growth comes from recruiting new users and driving new occasions.
  • "You’ve got to bring the outside in and the future back... Our value should be measured: have we driven human behavioral growth for those brands?"

[07:42] John Evans & Jane Wakely:

• Emphasis on growing the overall category—ensuring that partners, retailers, distributors, and consumers all succeed when the 'pie' expands.

3. Insights from the CMO Thrive Guide

[08:19] Neil Barrie:

• The “Thrive Guide” was created to reframe the CMO narrative from one of vulnerability to one of value and possibility.
  • "Great CMOs—they've never been more valuable. We should stop talking about the role's vulnerability and instead take action to strengthen it."
• The role of the CMO is uniquely complex—spanning marketing technology, performance, reputation, creativity, and business growth.
• The first year is critical; successful CMOs often must “rewrite” their job description in partnership with their organization.

[11:01] Neil Barrie:

• Finding from research: CFOs and CEOs want CMOs who can clearly link human behavior and commercial growth—not get lost in measurement complexity.
  • "What they really wanted was just a really clear link between the human growth and the commercial growth..."

4. The First 90 Days: Listening & Learning

[12:49] Jane Wakely:

• On joining PepsiCo, Jane prioritized deep listening, direct consumer visits, and immersing herself in frontline and local operations.
  • "You've got to listen way more than you talk... If you don't take that opportunity, you'll never be able to add the value."
• Importance of contracting a learning agenda with peers and leaders, and maintaining a “learner’s notebook” to preserve that fresh, naive perspective.
  • "I say, write it down, because it’s incredible how you’ll forget that fresh perspective."

5. Building Cross-Functional Relationships – Especially with Finance

[16:46] Neil Barrie:

• CMOs should adopt a "servant leader" posture, proactively collaborating with CFOs and other C-suite peers.
• Transparency is valued: CFOs appreciate honesty about measurement limitations more than 'black box' precision.
  • "Don’t black box it... Be honest about what the gaps are and then plot with them how you can fill those gaps."

[18:54] Jane Wakely:

• Uniting the organization under a shared philosophy of growth is crucial; marketing must lead but not operate in a silo.
  • "Aligning the philosophy of growth and the science of growth is critical... Marketing has been way too siloed."

[20:36] Neil Barrie:

• Introduced the “KPI tree” to help align teams on the levers that truly drive the business and clarify where marketing moves the needle.

6. The Boardroom & Brand as an Organizational Asset

[22:55] Jane Wakely:

• NED (non-executive director) perspective: marketers bring an essential audience-first, human-centric lens to boards.
  • "Most businesses can really accelerate their growth if they put a deeply human centric lens onto growth."
• CMOs are uniquely positioned to bring “outside in and future back” vision to the board.

[24:24] Neil Barrie:

• The brand is a board-level concern, especially during major milestones (IPO, M&As, talent attraction).
  • "CMOs are often the custodian of the brand... The brand is going to have a big influence on your company’s total addressable market."

7. Managing Legacy and Growth in Billion-Dollar Brand Portfolios

[26:13] Jane Wakely:

• PepsiCo has 20+ billion-dollar brands, serving a billion people daily.
• Managing such a portfolio requires different strategies for brands at various lifecycle stages—startup, scale-up, and “stay-up.”
  • "I've never met a CMO yet that said, 'Oh, I shifted resource too fast.' Normally it's very difficult to shift resources to the future, but you have to be decisive and focused."

[28:45] Jane Wakely:

• Category vision must be rooted in foresight into future consumer needs; focus resources on the biggest bets, such as Pepsi’s focus on “Food Deserves Pepsi.”
  • "At Pepsi, we're shifting significant investment... putting creativity at the service of the job to be done, end to end."

8. Consistency, Reappraisal, and the Value in Brand Heritage

[31:05] Jane Wakely & Neil Barrie:

• Many marketing innovations are about making classic brand truths feel fresh, not necessarily inventing from scratch.
  • Jane: “Often the clues to your future are rooted in your archaeology and past… Consistency of positioning is a multiplier in terms of impact.”
• Neil’s “Stay-Up” concept: enduring brands must maintain sharpness, facilitate reappraisal (not just reinvention), and mine their history for future growth.
  • "The keys to the future are in the past quite often. Pepsi Challenge: 50 years old and driving momentum right now."

Memorable quote:

• [34:52] Neil Barrie: "Only the sharp really survive. The longer your legacy, the more baggage you accrue... you need to be really sharp. What am I sunsetting?"

9. Creativity, Emotion, and Distinctiveness

[37:59] Jane Wakely:

• Lay's Super Bowl ad featuring a real farmer: successful because it anchored emotion and brand truth, not just celebrity.
  • "Creativity is there to create emotion. To grab attention by creating emotion. It's a beautiful illustration of creativity pointed at a product truth."

[39:38] Jane Wakely:

• Consistency in emotional branding and leveraging distinctive assets (e.g., Lay's sun logo) are keys to long-term brand impact.

[41:50] Jane Wakely & Neil Barrie:

• Celebrities can amplify messages only if the underlying creative idea is authentic and brand-linked.
  • "The critical thing is, what is the idea? The idea can never be the celebrity."
• Brands must ensure creativity is commercial and product-centered—evident in campaigns like Doritos Silent, GoDaddy, Ziploc, iPhone, and Cheetos.

10. Brand Purpose, Social Impact, and Sponsorship

[49:09] Jane Wakely:

• PepsiCo’s role in promoting women’s sports; sponsorship and elevating women’s leagues and events is a growth strategy and a social cause.
  • "It’s a dream come true, honestly, to be able to bring the excitement of women’s sport to life through our growth strategy and brand plans."
• Sponsorships need to bring genuine value (“gifts to the party”) to consumers and communities.

11. Driving Organizational Transformation & Cultural Movements

[52:57] Jane Wakely & Neil Barrie:

• Transformation must blend vision (“spark”), structure, and a safety net for experimentation.
• Change must be a movement—not a mandate—led by “change maker” communities that model new ways of working and celebrate success across the business.
  • "You’ve got to create a movement, not a mandate." [55:38, Neil Barrie]
• Internal change requires as much brand-building energy as external marketing.

[56:51] Neil Barrie:

• "Staying up means never standing still."

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jane Wakely ([01:33]): “The most inspirational and effective CMOs see themselves as architects of growth. It’s bringing the science and art of growth together.”
• Jane Wakely ([05:32]): “You've got to bring the outside in and the future back... How do you be a market maker, not a market follower?”
• Neil Barrie ([08:19]): “Great CMOs—they've never been more valuable. We should stop talking about the role's vulnerability and instead take action to strengthen it.”
• Jane Wakely ([12:49]): “You've got to listen way more than you talk... If you don't take that opportunity, you'll never be able to add the value.”
• Neil Barrie ([16:46]): “Your posture should be servant leader. You’re here to service the growth agenda.”
• Jane Wakely ([18:54]): “Marketing has been way too siloed... Great CMOs help unite the company behind what’s really important.”
• Neil Barrie ([34:52]): “Only the sharp really survive. The longer your legacy, the more baggage you accrue.”
• Jane Wakely ([39:38]): “Being clear about the emotion you need to evoke, rather than the message you need to tell, is the most important thing.”
• John Evans ([41:42]): “Your own celebrities should be the distinctive assets that you like the sun shining in. Find the things that make celebrities of your distinctive assets—that’s the biggest hack.”
• Jane Wakely ([43:34]): “Doritos Silent was just a brilliant way of very creatively bringing to life that we are super crunchy... Brings attention to our product truth.”
• Jane Wakely ([55:38]): “To create a movement, you've got to create artifacts of change... People really want to be on that stage and to hold that team trophy at the end of the year.”

Discussion Timestamps

• [01:33] – The CMO as "architect of growth": Vision, science, and creativity
• [05:32] – Balancing long-term vision vs. short-term execution
• [08:19] – CMO Thrive Guide: Rethinking the CMO’s value and first year impact
• [11:01] – What CEOs and CFOs really want from CMOs
• [12:49] – Jane's approach to her first 90 days at PepsiCo
• [16:46] – Shaping relationships with CFOs and cross-functional leadership
• [20:36] – "KPI tree" for unified business impact
• [22:55] – The marketer's role in the boardroom
• [26:13] – Managing and growing a portfolio of billion-dollar brands
• [31:05] – Brand consistency, reappraisal, and reinvention
• [34:52] – Lessons from "stay-up" brands
• [37:59] – Lay's Super Bowl ad and the value of emotion in creativity
• [39:38] – Distinctive brand assets and the power of repetition
• [41:50] – Celebrities in advertising: myths and realities
• [43:34] – Doritos Silent: Creativity anchored in product truth
• [49:09] – The role of brands in social progress (women’s sports)
• [52:57] – Creating cultural movements for organizational change
• [55:38] – Internal change management: Celebrating and sustaining transformation

Conclusion

This wide-ranging episode weaves together high-level strategy, practical tools, and vivid brand storytelling to answer: What makes a brilliant, future-proof CMO? Jane Wakely and Neil Barrie emphasize the need for vision, consistency, and a relentless human-centric approach—while never neglecting creativity, organizational culture, or commercial outcomes. It’s an inspiring and actionable listen for anyone interested in the true art and science of growth marketing at scale.