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- [00:00]
David Droga
Foreign.
- [00:07]
John Evans
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the uncensored cmo. Now, the legend that is David Droga has recently stepped down as CEO of Accenture Song, and he's been in the industry for a full 37 years. And I thought now would be the perfect moment to sit down and ask David what are the biggest lessons that he has learned from leading our industry over the last 37 years. I think it's fair to say that there aren't that many people on this planet that have had a bigger impact on the world of creativity than David has had. So here I'm asking him for his biggest lessons and what you can take from those. Here we go. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the uncensored cmo. We've got a returning guest.
- [00:43]
David Droga
The boomerang.
- [00:44]
John Evans
The boomerang. We've got a boomerang. David Droga, welcome back. It's good to see you again.
- [00:48]
David Droga
I'm very happy to be here again. Happy to see you again with all your fancy equipment. Now I have to try harder.
- [00:53]
John Evans
Well, you seem a little bit more relaxed. I have to say now it's like.
- [00:57]
David Droga
The weight of the world has lifted off my shoulders. What's happened the last few weeks?
- [01:00]
John Evans
What's happened in the last few weeks?
- [01:01]
David Droga
Exactly. Exactly.
- [01:02]
John Evans
Although I have to say, rumors of your retirement I think might be exaggerated, I have a feeling that you're not going to be going quietly into the next stage.
- [01:09]
David Droga
Well, it's not a retirement as such. It's. I mean, originally it was going to be a retirement, and wisely. And, you know, in a flattering sense, they sort of asked me to stay on as vice chair. And I really sort of had to understand what that meant. I said, well, it's really up to me to decide what that is. But they know my personality is. Because I care a lot about what I do and what I've done. And people around me that I get to sort of cherry pick the clients and the projects and some of the acquisitions and particularly the people that I can support and all that. So it's a. It's kind of a glorious weaning. You know, as an ex smoker, I haven't smoked for 20 plus years. You know how you wean yourself off with nicotine patches?
- [01:51]
John Evans
Yeah.
- [01:51]
David Droga
Maybe this is the equivalent of sort of weaning my way off of every day.
- [01:56]
John Evans
I think you and Rory Sutherland's the only two people I know that are vice chairs.
- [02:00]
David Droga
Again, it sounds very fancy, but it is great. Look, I mean, the thing is, as I said, I take any opportunity Seriously. So already just in the 10 days that I've stepped into this role because obviously I had my pedal to the metal to the end of the financial year because I wanted to close it out with glory and hit certain things and you know, and hand it over in a really great place. But even in those 10 days, I've sort of had some fantastic meetings already and I've. But I've also had some, a few days where I've been able to just walk my daughter to school or go visit an art gallery, things like that. How wonderful. It's unbelievable. Yeah, it's unbelievable.
- [02:39]
John Evans
Enjoy life.
- [02:41]
David Droga
No, no, I know, I mean, you know, I also know my personality. It's, you know, I'm a thinker and a builder. So for the rest of it, you know, my life, I'm always going to be contributing hopefully in positive ways.
- [02:52]
John Evans
Now the last few years, of course, you've been CEO and Accenture Songs had a, had a, had a brilliant growth trajectory over those years and it's great to see someone with your kind of creative talent leading an organization. We don't see many kind of CEOs that kind of have your kind of background. What have been the big lessons for you in that time?
- [03:11]
David Droga
Well, you know, that was the whole point of why I took it so seriously because I, I think more creative people should definitely be given those opportunities because I think that we look at the world slightly differently and I think that, you know, for some reason I think people assume if you're a creative minded person or you know, a pure creative, that doesn't mean you have a respect or an understanding of business or operations, which is just not true. I mean there are certain, look, of course there are some creatives that are best left in the playpen and just left with a, you know, kept away from people and sharp objects who are inspiring. But at the same time, I mean, creative people is just a way you look at things and frame things and unpack things. And I've always been very proud to be a creative first and through, you know, to my marrow. But I understood the mechanics of business as a way in the early days when I say to protect my belief system, I didn't want to just be just a hired gun or someone who's just a thinker and you know, paid by the hour or paid by the project. I wanted to build a robust business. I wanted to understand the clients because we're not, as I said, we're not in Fine Arts Gallery and you know, we are in the business in a capital market and people pay us millions and millions of dollars to do things that are hopefully worth billions and billions of dollars. You have to have a business mind to that. So the last, you know, that's what. Going back to your question, the last four years as CEO of Song was a privilege. It was very all consuming. But I'm, you know, person who likes, I'm a mission based person and I didn't want to let the team down because, you know, I'd hate to be a poster child of. That's why you shouldn't put a creative in charge. And hopefully for any of the successes I've had with brilliant teams behind me and around me, it would hopefully open a lot more doors for creatives in boardrooms. I really would hope that and I would say that because I think it's better for business as well that will actually make it work.
- [05:06]
John Evans
I mean, I mean to that point, do we, do we value creativity enough? Because if you look at kind of tech, you know, there's huge multiples on tech companies, massive margins and it comes to the creative industries and it seems to be low margin, not valued enough as it should be. Do you think we need to do change how we view the role of creativity?
- [05:26]
David Droga
Well, definitely, but I think it's also the way creativity is frames. For some reason, creativity is framed as just the sort of the, the veneer on things. You know, creativity is, is essentially more, much more than that. It's the idea sometimes it's the essence of everything. You know, the tech companies look, they're not really paid for just, just by the hour or they're not really in the service business. I think that's the flaw. The business model of, of advertising and marketing is the biggest barrier. I think the necessity for creativity and originality and uniqueness and style and design and taste and understanding. I think there's never been more of a premium need for that. But I think the business model is what we need to do.
- [06:09]
John Evans
Talk about your point about reframing the model for creativity. Last year I did this thing with Adam Morgan, Peter Field called the extraordinary cost of being dull. And we tried to actually work out how much is our businesses losing by basically doing boring creative work. And in the US alone, just on audio, so just on video, we worked out it was something like $180 billion gets wasted on ads that make zero difference. And just to illustrate it, we came up this, Adam said to me last year, he said, john, let's find the most boring thing we possibly can, like a film of cows eating grass. And test that against all the best, all the best adverts in the world and how would it do? And Cows eating Grass was more interesting to people than 50% of the ads.
- [06:55]
David Droga
That we could find. Well, there's so many points to unpack in that one as well because Cows eating Grass actually is more interesting and you don't see that every day on television. So it's already unique. It's a weird thing in so many categories where the averages is the norm and it's the, it's people's aspirations are to be average. You know, if they want to be of a category, they want to be of a type, you know what I mean? And so they aspire for the middle because then they did this. They worry that if they go too extreme, they sort of lose the, on the edges and then everything blends. You know, why does every car commercial kind of look the same? Why does every pharmaceutical commercial or bank commercial kind of look the same? It's beer, you know, they almost have the same uniforms of conformity and it's strange. And I, and I, and I understand why that happened when categories were being created because you sort of people want to project or signal where they are, who they are and stuff like that. And you know, they saw if the reputable car company had this field and if you could be like them that put you in the same class. But people's need to sort of replicate category leaders, they didn't realize they're not really a category leader can still be failing.
- [08:06]
John Evans
Yeah.
- [08:07]
David Droga
So people started, you know, I mean they've all, they've been copying, they've been following the wrong pace car all the time. And I think that's the problem. And as I said, things are written by, you know, research and conformity. That's why everything is bland. Look out the window. That's why most architecture is bland. That's why most music is, is formulaic. That's why most advertising and films as you know, people appeal to the middle because they think they're going to get more people and more and more now where, you know, people are looking for uniqueness and differentiation and personal personality and stuff like that. It's always a return back to the craves. And again there's there, there's enough examples of companies that have mastered storytelling or creativity with engineering or with the business of, or the mechanics of something and created something unique. Apple's obviously an obvious one. You could pick some of the German car manufacturers. Tesla put aside the politics of that one. Great design never goes out of Style, great insight, great communication, great storytelling, never ever goes out of style. But there was decision makers and bean counters would make decisions and engineer things in a mediocre places. And so when creativity, as I said, even with the onslaught of AI, which is going to be incredible, and everyone's sort of caught up in the, the excitement and euphoria of we can do all these things that are very familiar really fast and really cheap and that's just exciting and interesting at this stage. But everything's eventually going to look the same because everyone's going to have access to exactly the same. And when everyone looks the same again, we're going to have the cows in a field thing.
- [09:48]
John Evans
Yeah, well, did you know, it's funny you mentioned cars because actually in the study we looked at all the car logos and how the car logos are going to become the same, the side profile of cars. In fact, we had 40 cars in the same category. So these are small SUVs, right? And we took the logos off and you couldn't work out which one was which. You couldn't tell the Mercedes from the Kia. We did the same thing with fashion. This is the crazy thing because we thought, well, surely fashion, if there was ever a category that's going to be distinctive and different. We showed the logos 20 years ago and the logos today and it's just become the same. It's like this massive homogenization. And then as you say, you put technology in, we just get to do that quicker and more cheaply.
- [10:28]
David Droga
It's amazing. As I said, people find comfort in familiarity to a point and then it all starts to tumble away because unless there's a point of difference, if you're just. If you're the same as everybody else in any category, what business case do you have? You know, if you're. People have heard me say this about opinions as well, you know, if I have 10, 10 people who, who work for me and if all 10 people agree, then 10 people aren't necessary. You need different points of view now. You need consensus to move forward with certain things. But 10 people all agree on everything and have exactly the same taste. And all that sort of makes for one very dull future.
- [11:09]
John Evans
Now, I love the way you framed Essential Song as creative LED tech enabled as a lovely kind of balance those two things. I mean, talking about that risk that technology is going to homogenize and potentially kill creativity, how do you kind of use technology to release creativity?
- [11:25]
David Droga
Well, I don't think it's funny because, you know, it's not like technology is A new thing. It's all the time, everything's been technology, you know, that's moved us forward, sort of technology has taken, made life easier for us since, you know, almost the dawn of time. But I think obviously the pace of which technology's moved into our, into industries and playing catch up has changed. But you know, all technology has been amplified and be brought alive by creativity. It all has, you know, once the technology becomes the common denominator, that it's the creative minds and that sort of seep into it and change it and do stuff with it. So I'm not one of those people, sort of naysayers who are saying that, well, technology is going to kill us and it's going to wipe us all out. It's more, as I said, the lazy people who are going to allow that to happen surrender to it. But I think the beautiful thing about humanity and people is that there's a tenacity to us and an improvisation and a need to tweak and change and bend and, and there's emotion baked in stuff and all that. And I think that we can bend it to our will. The best stuff is always, has always happened that way. And it's a lot. And they don't always have to be creatives as designers or writers or anything like that. You know, a lot of times, you know, some of the geniuses in Silicon Valley, you know, they took the emerging technology digital and they sort of input their ideas or their ambitions into it and they just allowed them to do things they couldn't do before. And I'm excited for what's going to happen with yes, the jobs model will change and the org charts will change and the skill sets will change, but the outputs and things we're trying to create won't change. People still need to be informed, still need. People want to be entertained and feel safe and feel loved and feel needed and feel, you know, status and all these other things. But the delivery systems will change and that's why I'm optimistic about creativity. You know, people were decrying robots will be taken over by robots in the 1920s when they first, I think that's when the word robot was around that was actually created and people were like, oh, we're going to be. Automation's going to take over, robots are going to take over. That's why all those sci fi started that and we're just there now, but just with, you know, more proof points.
- [13:35]
John Evans
Well, even going back to like the printing press, the printing press was seen as like an evil Propaganda machine that was going to make everyone take uncle.
- [13:42]
David Droga
Thing is, I mean, I, yeah, my, my love of our imaginations and the potential of thinkers and doers, it transcends and it eclipses my loyalty to, you know, types of technology that were, you know, when they. I didn't, I'm not moaning that I love a typewriter now. I have it as a, as a, almost like a sculptural piece. I didn't bemoan the fact that I didn't write on typewriters anymore, you know, and I didn't care that when, you know, I used to have a typography department when I was in Saatchi, London. Brilliant typography department. You know, when technology allowed us to do type in new ways, in different ways, my love of type and the necessity of type didn't disappear. You know what I mean? And so my loyalty is to the output and the opportunities that they open. More so than, you know, I'm not sort of trying to unionize our jobs, you know, what I'm trying to do is unionize our output.
- [14:34]
John Evans
We often talk to me about craft, don't we, as something. And I think that's something that we have to probably protect. Yeah, don't we, with, with new technology because so the output I tend to see, it all looks very similar, doesn't it? When you see AI generated output, that sort of love and craft and care and nuance.
- [14:50]
David Droga
Well, that's, that's the point I'm saying is I think everyone's still excited and intimidated by the pilot trick of, oh, you can do that, that much output and you can create this image or this moving image or this logo and all that. And it does a fine job to, you know, to be dominant and to be as disruptive as it is, AI only has to be better than average. And it already is great. You know what I mean? Fantastic. I could put in, you could design, you know, open up an art gallery or a coffee shop tomorrow and it could design you 10 logos in five minutes that you would be really chuffed to have. Build you the website, do some marketing material, all those things. Fantastic, that's great. And let everyone have at it and let all the people do that. But eventually, as I said, when everybody has that, what's going to be the difference? It's going to be the imperfections of how we think and how creative people think. I mean, I said this in an op ed that I wrote. AI is designed and technique is designed to avoid error. It's built around the worst thing that can happen in a program or an algorithm is error, a bug. It's designed to be perfect and deliver all that sort of stuff. Everything that makes us interesting is the errors is that is how we misrepresent or misinterpret or reinterpret or context or angst and all these things that make us human, that's what makes us creative. So, you know, that's the sort of, the tension between the two, you know, and when you imply what makes us human, which is our bugs, our personalities, you know, all that sort of stuff, and you put, you know, that's why we. That's what separates us from that.
- [16:24]
John Evans
I can't remember who said this, so I'm probably going to misquote them. But they were saying that the last thing AI will be able to work out is human stupidity. Well, it's true.
- [16:32]
David Droga
Something like. Because we don't make sense. That's what I mean by like. Our personalities are our quirks and our bugs in the way we look at the life. And it can be from upbringing, context, it can be from emotional devastation, or it can be from great things. It can be desires, needs, personality trait, all those things. You have yours, I have mine, all that sort of stuff. And how that manifests out in the world is, you know, put some skill to it and all that sort of stuff. No one can replicate that now. Yeah, sure, I'm a writer. I know that I could put into AI write a paragraph that sounds like David Roger wrote it, and it would probably do a fine job. But it's not going to be thinking how I'm thinking at that moment and what I want to get across right then and there. And I might be pissed off that morning or I might be sad or happy or excited about something and those sort of multilayers. That's what I think is that gives me optimism that the necessity of us is going to be, you know, it's going to be the forward scout with technology. So I'm not anti AI and technology. I'm wary that it's going to be too easy and convenient and laziness is the thing that worries me more than technology is human laziness.
- [17:44]
John Evans
That's interesting, isn't it? Because there's already, I think, research suggesting that people using AI are thinking less because they're kind of outsourcing the thinking to AI and therefore they're not training themselves to think through a problem, make the creative leaps.
- [17:58]
David Droga
Yeah, I just, I just don't want, you know, as I said, going back to the averages Thing I don't want good enough to be good enough, you know, because we're going back to. You were talking about researching things and the averages, you know, people celebrate better than average now. You know, they even celebrate average. And I think that the world needs all these people who are filled with provocations and ambitions and you know, want to blow things up or want to create greatness or whatever it is just to drag us into lateral deep places that move us forward. And that's what's so exciting. That's why I love being creative. I love being a creative person because you have permission to be outrageous and a daydreamer and think about possibilities and without really understanding the mechanics of things. And you can always backfill that. You know what I mean? I just think that that's what's exciting, to be a creative person.
- [18:50]
John Evans
Love that. Love that a lot. As you look back on your career, what you created with Droga5, what are you most proud of leaving in terms of your kind of legacy over that time?
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David Droga
It's not a piece of work or anything. I probably think that I'm proudest of the fact that since day one, when I was sort of fortunate enough to find my footing in this industry, that I grew along the way in every place I went. I sort of felt that I contributed and learned a lot creatively and did it with a lot of great people. Yes, I produced a lot of work that I'm very proud of. But I felt like I grew with. I didn't plateau emotionally, mentally, ambition wise, my care didn't plateau. Like I just kept on snowballing and moving forward and allowed me to go all over the world and prove to myself, you know, maybe that's an insecurity in myself. You know, I'd probably hide behind ego, but it's, you know, this part of insecurity in that as well. It's just like you, you just want to be relevant, you want to be contributing. And I was just always put myself in places and sometimes that means deliberately challenging myself to find a harder task, you know, to burst the bubble of security of running Saatchi London, to go to public, burst the security of being the first worldwide creator to start my own thing from, you know, like I liked reinventing myself because it forced me to always want to prove that, you know, I'm a relevant person that is contributing daily and stuff like that. And I, you know, I don't know. So my pride is in. Is it maybe is inconsistency, I said, not just consistency of Output but consistency of belief. I have zero regrets in my career, which is a.
- [20:42]
John Evans
That's great.
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David Droga
Yeah. I mean there are things I wish I'd done better or, you know, it doesn't mean I haven't made mistakes or stumbled or anything like that, but zero regrets in my career of the choices I made about it, where I worked and how I did it and how I held myself up and stuff. You know, there are business decisions. I'm like, oh, I should have done this or should have done that or should have learned this lesson quicker. But I feel so grateful that I was, you know, and I. And maybe because I felt so fortunate, which is why I took it so seriously because I kept nothing. Like to have had the opportunities I've had is so rare and special. I gotta do everything I can to over deliver on that because you don't get given these opportunities. And very often, and because I was given it all very often, I felt like I was getting away with something. And the only way to sort of make up for that was to exceed expectations. I don't know if that makes any sense, but it does.
- [21:39]
John Evans
It does. He says something. Last time we met actually which struck me was you didn't have a business plan, you just had belief 100. And that comes through in just what you said there, that the belief in.
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David Droga
The next thing, they're also. I'm blessed with a weird thing that would, you know, probably stress a lot of people out. My belief system is sometimes a little bit blinding where there are multiple times in my career where I stepped away from something that had that a reasonable person or a sensible person would never have walked away from. There's probably five times in my career. I remember first job I had when I, after I went awards, I got a job as a, my first job as a copywriter actually. And very excited. Couldn't believe I was so excited. I got this job, paid for my imagination and I was paid $30,000 a year, which was like being a millionaire. And I was living out of home and this new agency in Australia started and brilliant young agent, you know, the two people who were starting with two of the best young creatives in the country and they said, come and work for us. We can only pay you 20 grand, so you have to take a, you know, 33% pay cut. We don't have any clients, we don't have any office furniture. And I remember saying to my dad, dad, I'm going to quit this job at a big American multinational to go to this startup. They don't have any clients, no furniture on the first employee and I have to take a pay cut. It was like, you are insane. Definitely don't do that. Best thing I did quit did that same thing. It was just I believe that they believed in good work. And I just thought, well, because they have the belief system and I've seen work they've done in the past that I'm going to hitch my wagon to that thing. And they were right. And I worked my ass off and I slept at the agency three days a week. But we became a huge success. The agency became a huge. It was like Australian agency multiple times. And we grew. And because I was the first employee, you know, I was. My career was accelerated by that choice. And I was crave rector at 22. And then when that got bought by BBDO, actually I was ready to leave to go on an adventure. Same thing. But I owned a quarter of the agency in stock at this stage and same thing, signed the contract. They were like, you have to lock you down for three years. And I didn't want it to stay. And I was betting on myself again. And I'd been offered to run Saatchi Asia and again, I was 26 at the time. And everyone was saying, you just stay for three years, you'll make X amount of money. A lot of money. Which was more money than I could even compute. Like, no, I want to do this thing because I want to explore the world. I want to be even more creative. I remember saying to one of my partners who then I said, I'll give you my equity. And they said, for what? Why would you give my. I said, in fact, I'll give you the equity if I can take that rug. I just pointed the first thing in there and they thought I was joking. I said, I'm not joking. Give me that rug, you can have my equity. I literally took the rug, gave my equity away so I didn't have to stay again. Everyone was like, well, you're nuts. So there's so many times where I was blessed with that thing where I was never chasing. I was chasing work and building something and being part of something and proving something more than. Because I say, I mean, that's the privilege of. And the innocence of youth, right? London was so grateful to have the success there. Pulpit's got that job that I thought, you know, everyone thinks they want to be the worldwide chief creative officer of a company. You know, same thing. And when I left that to go to do Dragon Fire, I left behind millions and millions of dollars of equity But I didn't care because I was better. I bet on myself that I'd rather build something without a business plan, but with a belief system and in the timing and enough experience around that I sort of knew that I could was worth a shot. And also I brought some great, you know, so it's just wherever I got that gene from, I don't know, you know, because I didn't come from wealth and I didn't come, you know, I just, But I was, I never chased it. I chased, I don't know, just the idea of contributing and making something and the challenge of stuff. Don't get me wrong, I love build. I was very happy to build a very successful company. But, you know, but there are certain decisions I made along the way that I think a rational person and I'd probably, if someone was asking me for advice, I'd probably tell them to stay and do not do the things, you know what I mean? But because it was me, I just kind of always knew.
- [26:10]
John Evans
The thing that struck me about that is the power of the environment you put yourself in as well. So rather than chasing the big client, the name above the door, the salary, etc. Etc. You're putting yourself in a position where you could flourish because of the people you're with. The environment completely.
- [26:25]
David Droga
I mean, I've also, I've always liked putting myself in a position where there's something at risk, not like personally risk and something like that. And it's not, you know, but I have to prove that I love. I don't know if that's because I'm a Leo, because I'm the fifth son in the family or whatever, but I wanted to prove that I could step into hard things and make them great. And I knew if I took these risks, like again, if I, if I walk away from that, wow, you better be successful, you better make that success that make you work harder, you know, if you walk away from that, like, I don't want to be the, I don't want the footnote to be that idiot did that, you know, I mean, again, I'm drawn by what could be more than what is.
- [27:04]
John Evans
There's something powerful about a big challenge, isn't there? I really relate to that because there's motivation, isn't there? Where there's a really big challenge, you've got no option other than to lean in and make it a success rather than play it safe and repeat what you've done before.
- [27:17]
David Droga
Oh, I love when you can take the alibis away and it's Just you and the rawness of the opportunity and your own talent and your own tenacity and your work ethic. There's just something pure about that, you know, And I love being in my own head because, I mean, I'm. My wife sort of teases me that I sort of, you know, I like my own company a lot where I sort of like to think about things and this. Yeah, there's something great about that. It's a privilege to be able to. To try and unpack things and think things through. And that's what's a. What a great thing to be able to do. Yeah.
- [27:49]
John Evans
If you were to start today, let's just pretend you were starting out from scratch, what would you do today? And would it be any different to how you started out given that the world has changed, media channels have changed, you know, technology's changed?
- [28:02]
David Droga
Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't, I wouldn't necessarily start an advertising agency or anything like that. I definitely want to be a. It would have to be a creative endeavor. I'd have to be put. Thrust myself into a creative business. But I would look at how I can apply my creativity in what industry and where I think that I can add value, you know, so it might be something, you know, I'd be definitely compelled to understand AI and what I could do with that. You know, I mean, I. I don't know whether it be entertainment, whether it be healthcare, who knows. But I would definitely look at something where there's the biggest need for creativity and a platform for me to grow and learn. You know, I like both that I want to contribute, but I also realize want to. I want to learn. At the same time like I think it. I wanted to. This mutually beneficial relationship because that was also another reason I. I like throwing myself in the challenges and that can be the challenge of moving to Asia or London or America or starting an agency or joining a tech company is. It's another step up and another gear to add to sort of who I am. And I'm learning, you know, there's another. Everything was a different dimension to what I already believe. So no, I'm collecting things as I. The experiences of all those places were not lost when I went to the next thing, but then I added another dimension. And I think that that's always sort of something that I've, you know, I'm a collector of things and I'm a hoarder of. You know, I've always collected art and things like that. So maybe this is just another thing I'm Sort of a, a collector of experiences and, and learnings and experiences and. Because then I can apply them. Because isn't that creativity? Creativity is, is, is parlaying other, you know, taking something and making more of it.
- [29:47]
John Evans
I think that's the lovely thing about creativity is like, you know, the, the circumstances may change, technology may change, but the need for creativity and problem solving is. It's never going to go away. He's been here. You know what I mean? That's not, that's who we are.
- [29:59]
David Droga
Again, going back. It's who we are as people.
- [30:01]
John Evans
Yeah.
- [30:02]
David Droga
You know, it's who we are as people. Imagination is the world's greatest natural resource. Yeah.
- [30:08]
John Evans
Now a lot of marketers be listening and obviously uncensored CMO is the premise of the podcast. What are some of the traits of the best clients that you work with? That. What advice would you give client side marketers?
- [30:22]
David Droga
Well, it's probably blatantly obvious and I would say to all marketers, by the way, a lot of respect to you because I think one of the truths and the consistencies that I've, the longer I've been in the industry, the more I have empathy for the, the how tough it is to be on that side to be a cmo because, you know, you're sort of trying to obviously deal with, you know, creatives and people and who are trying to help you and that side of things. Then you've got the mechanics of your business and the weight of that. And also the role of the CMO has changed so drastic. It's not, it's much more than just built, you know, marketing these days. It's about, you know, influencing every other chair in the C suite. It's about building brand and business and it's, and also they're playing catch up. You know, they're probably all. The wave of, wave of new technology and media and deployment and all that sort of stuff is suffocating and exhausting. So I have a lot of empathy and I think that was a big epiphany for me when I first started Drogo5, because we started in the digital age, was not trying to sell to the person, obviously. TABLE I was like, I really wanted to understand, going back to that. I like to understand things like what are they, what are they trying to solve for? What's the challenge? And if I can not just have empathy, but then the empathy will give me permission to try and understand from their chair. So when I do try and solve something, it's, it's, it's the gears are matching. There's an interlock between what they're trying to solve for and what we're trying to bring to the table, as opposed to just. Because in my early days of my career, you know, sometimes I would just. I thought the sheer genius of our creativity was going to solve everything. But I also think, you know, other things I would say is a lot of my favorite clients were not the easiest, by the way. You know, it's not like, oh, they just love everything we do and all that. You know, there's clarity, there's an appreciation of strategy, There's a desire for or permission for creativity. It doesn't mean you always have, you know, permission for grounded creativity. So there's a reason for it and an appreciation of craft and also, you know, an honesty. I've always said to a client, like, if you don't like something, there's a reason you don't like it, or there's a tell me. I'd rather have the most frank conversations. I'm confident and arrogant enough to think that I can solve it. If this isn't the right answer, I don't need to be coddled to be like, to broken it to me slowly. So a lot of my favorite clients was really tough, but we had very honest relationships. You know what I mean? And then when there's a trust built, People have heard me say this before. I mean, it's the most intimidating thing any client can do is to trust their agency.
- [32:58]
John Evans
Oh, totally.
- [32:59]
David Droga
Because going back to taking out the alibis, it takes the alibis out.
- [33:01]
John Evans
It does.
- [33:02]
David Droga
Now you have to earn trust. It can't be blind. But I. Yeah, so I, as I said, some of the work that I'm proud of it, because also some of the, Some of the work that. Of my work that people think, oh, that must have been impossible to sell. I'm like, no, it was. Some of the. Some of the most. Most ambitious stuff was easier to sell because there was a logic and a strategy behind it and understanding behind it. So when you explained the reason for why we were doing something, before we got to what the idea was, it was already almost completely sold. So when we did present the idea, they'd be like, of course, has to.
- [33:36]
John Evans
Be X. I think you talked back. You know, we're not just making art to put in museums here. And I think that's the crux of it. And often whenever I've been giving advice to agencies, as a kind of former client myself, I'm like, start with the business problem that I'm trying to solve. Because at the end of the day, I've got to take this big idea. You've got go back to an organization full of accountants, logistics people, sales people, and explain how this is going to help us all achieve.
- [34:03]
David Droga
Well, I think. I know I might have said it to you on the last podcast and if I did, just edit this out and drop in something more interesting. But, you know, again, I start with the end, which is, you know, why, what? Why should anybody, the consumer or the receiving person on the receiving end of this or the people on the receiving end of this give a shit about this, this experience, this, this moment, this ad, this piece of communication, this app, this whatever. Why should they give a shit about it? And what role is it going to play in their lives? And are we interrupting them? Are we a speed hump in their life? Is it hitting them at the right time? Is it adding value? That value can manifest itself in different ways. It can be rewarding, entertaining, educating, you know, helpful, create ease. You know, there's all of those things I love, I love that every, everything's an opportunity to do something fantastic. Yeah.
- [34:54]
John Evans
Now you've come from, as you talked about, you started in Australia, Singapore, uk, You know us, you've covered the, literally cover the globe, haven't you?
- [35:03]
David Droga
Classic Aussie. Yeah. If it was, If I'd said I'd worked in a bar and all those places, that would have made sense as well.
- [35:08]
John Evans
Exactly, yeah. As you look around the kind of world today, what are you seeing? What trends are maybe overrated and what trends are underrated? Because as marketers, we are obsessed, aren't we, with what's changing, what's new, that kind of thing.
- [35:25]
David Droga
I think the blindness to just celebrity is just something that drives me crazy. Now, don't get me wrong, I think there's some celebrity that have immense power for the right products and they can do incredible things. But I think just, there's a certain laziness to just slapping X person onto this thing and thinking that. And I'm like, it's no wonder, you know, half the things don't work when you've got one celebrity selling burgers and then perfume and then this and that, it sort of dilutes their brand, you know, I mean, like I'm. There's a certain laziness in that that I don't like. But trends, I don't know. You know, as I said, we're just, we're all trying to keep up with what, with what's happening in the world now. And as I said, People are. Heads are spinning because they're trying to understand, you know, we were talking about TikTok earlier as the power of that. And how, you know, it does have the decision making hierarchy for certain things, particularly for the younger generation, is phenomenal. It's insane. The power it has, you know what I mean? And again, it's so. So I don't turn my nose up at things if I don't completely understand them either. You know, I'm sort of much more intrigued to understand how and why. And then, then I think about, like, can I contribute to that or I just have to get out of the way of that, you know, I mean, I mean, for me, I think it.
- [36:44]
John Evans
Comes back to, you know, are you clear about your strategy often with these things? Isn't it because there are so many. You can make an argument for anything these days, can't you? For being on Tick Tock, for maybe using celebrities, not using celebrities, or, you know, building a brand in traditional media, new media, all those kind of things, or being experienced. But there's so many kind of like tactics.
- [37:03]
David Droga
But that's more what I mean. It's like, it's like with the celebrity thing, it's like with all these platforms, you know. Yeah. If you know what you're doing on these things. Yeah. Then it's fantastic. But just there are too many decisions where it's, someone reads a report that says, oh, this medium, you know, is huge with the youth and blah, blah, blah, blah, and they just, they scrunch up something that was probably intended for a different medium and force it into that and it's out of context. And it's like, that drives me crazy. I'm always seeing this, I'm thinking, who's. Who approved that? The amount of times I've said in my career, actually, and I've always used to joke, you know, people always say, you know, you'd see. I'd always see something if I ever saw a great piece of advertising. You know, a lot of times if I'd be like, who created that? And I'd want to find out who wrote that or art directed that. Because I'm thinking, you know, maybe I should hire them. And when I saw an absolute piece of garbage on television or advertising, I was like, I need to find out who sold that, because maybe that's who I should hire.
- [38:02]
John Evans
I was gonna say, you can't hire them.
- [38:03]
David Droga
You know what I mean? Cause it's like, how do you get that coverage? Yeah, you know, imagine giving them something great, you know, I mean, because there's so many things where I'm like, sometimes even when I see terrible films, I'm like, there had to be dozens and dozens of approval processes in that. And I think sometimes, you know, crappy things just have momentum, you know what I mean? It just once it's rolling downhill, no one can stop.
- [38:31]
John Evans
I guess sometimes those things is the creative is so inoffensive that no one can say no.
- [38:36]
David Droga
Well, I think a lot of that is. Which is going back to that thing I was saying before about, you know, clients try and be good clients and they sort of. They don't want to kill something, but they just tweak it and they compromise it. And a lot of also people on the creative side lie to themselves about something, even though what they've intended to make or believed in, it's a shadow of itself and it's been sort of compromised along the way. And so the end product is. You can't even identify what it started out as, but everyone still refers to it as the same thing. But there's nothing, you know, I mean, like, everyone's tried to not hurt each other's feelings along the way, and you end up with this engineered mediocrity, you know.
- [39:15]
John Evans
Well, this is why we did the Costa Dole experiment, because we're trying to work out if you could actually show people how much they're losing by saying yes to those kind of ideas. But that's my incentive completely.
- [39:25]
David Droga
I mean, that's why we did the. That Coinbase, Coinbase super bowl ad. You know, everyone was in. You know, it's also. That's what the thing that I always say is one of the most underleveraged parts of communication marketing is context. Everyone talks about canvases and content and all that. Context is often most important. That can be timing. All that is look at the medium, look at what people. Look at what you. Where you are, what everyone else is doing. How are you going to stand out? Like, what's the messaging? What do you want to do? Like, you know, context is such a massive thing. We have context as humans when we talk to each other. You know what I mean, how I talk to you in a setting like that? But a lot of times when we're in a business setting, everyone talks to everyone like they're in a boardroom with each other. And I'm like, people aren't watching this in a boardroom.
- [40:10]
John Evans
Well, actually, going back to the AI point, that's often where AI doesn't answer the question. It doesn't understand the context. Or what's going on in culture at the time or where your brand is, you know, and that's where. That's where the, you know, humans are critical to understand context and culture and all this.
- [40:27]
David Droga
As I said, it's our. Our bugs. Yeah, exactly. That are going to be the thing that saves us.
- [40:31]
John Evans
Yeah.
- [40:32]
David Droga
And saves creativity.
- [40:33]
John Evans
So let's talk about some of the work over the years. I love the fact that the other day, I think you wrote. Was it 37 lessons from 37 campaigns?
- [40:40]
David Droga
Oh, yeah. They asked to pick 37 campaigns and some stories behind them to. To represent my 37 years in advertising.
- [40:48]
John Evans
You started early, right? As you said, you're. You're out.
- [40:50]
David Droga
I was at 8, so I started.
- [40:52]
John Evans
Yeah.
- [40:53]
David Droga
So I'm. Okay, true. But even that was, you know, it's a. I don't really have a big rear vision mirror. So it was kind of lovely and sentimental to look back.
- [41:01]
John Evans
Yeah, I mean, we'll come to some of those in a minute. Are there any ideas that you've had over the years that never saw the light of day that you think, man, I wish that one had had come to life.
- [41:12]
David Droga
Yeah, definitely. I think the. I may have talked about. Did I talk about the GE building in our first one? I might have.
- [41:17]
John Evans
I think. I think you pitched that. You pitched. Didn't you pitch that as an idea.
- [41:20]
David Droga
A building for ge? Yeah, that was actually. Yeah. Because that was the first thing, the very first idea that we created at Drogo 5 to present and make, which was, you know, for the G. For the Olympics, instead of doing a TV and poster campaign to actually build a building, take all the money, like 60 to 80 million dollars that would have spent on the global campaign and build a building in the middle of the Olympic city. And that made out of all GE technology and it was going to purify the river in Beijing and so take all their products and actually create a product demonstration that would last the test of time. And we had Philip Stark design the building at Bill McDonough help us be an authority on that. And this I did for my dining room table and I was sort of writing contracts in an Internet cafe because I just moved. Still to this day, I'm like. But that building would have been magnificent because it would have been. It's just a proof concept. It'd still be standing today and it'd be an exhibition center now. And they actually approved it. They did. Which is unbelievable.
- [42:20]
John Evans
Yeah.
- [42:20]
David Droga
But the Beijing Olympic Committee didn't approve it because they didn't want to. Because they, as you saw some of the buildings they built in Beijing were rather extraordinary. I don't think they wanted anything that competed with that. But it's interesting. It would have cost the same as that as the regular campaign.
- [42:35]
John Evans
Well, to actually build the building would be the same as a normal campaign. 80 million does force you to think, doesn't it? What could you do with that money?
- [42:42]
David Droga
I know, but the thing about it is it set in motion right from the get go, was present what you think is the right idea. I'm not an architect expert, I wasn't a sustainability expert. I'm interested in both. But I believed that was the right idea. And also a great idea brings people to the table. The fact that Philippe Stark, I just picked up the phone and called him, told him, he's like, yeah, I'll be there. He flew to Beijing with me. You know, it's like unbelievable. With a three person agency, that's insane. But it made me remind me like, okay, always do the right thing and present what you like. And then the second thing I did after that was echo. And I just kept on thinking like that, which is, what is the right thing? You know, the right thing may be the most traditional thing ever, or it might be. And I've tried to broaden the perspective of what marketing and advertising could be and also broaden the perspective of who can contribute to that and who we can partner with. And that's why I made the deal with Endeavour and that's why I sort of with Accenture. But there are things that I've made. I mean, I think the number one thing that there's many campaigns and ideas that I wish had happened. There's always, I think every single creative person has a graveyard full of things that they think are on life support their whole life. They don't ever acknowledge that they're dead. They just think that they're on life support somewhere that they can be resuscitated. But I think one of the ones that people forget that before I actually wished I put it in that 37, if they'd asked me for 38, I might have put it in there. Between Publicis and before Droga5, there was a period of about a year and a half, two years where I tried to build a advertising entertainment network called Honeyshed, which was sort of an online mix, as we called it was QVC meets mtv. We had hosts and we had a whole studio in la. We were filming content and all that. And the thing about that is the idea is exactly what influences are today. It's what's happening on TikTok today. It's 20 years ago, you know, it had girls trying on lipstick and telling about lipstick. Gamers talking about games, sneakerheads talking about, you know, that, you know, four or five hosts. The problem was it was before the iPhone. So content we were shooting was 30 grand to shoot a three minute spot. Now you do it for 10 bucks. We built a very janky, janky piece of shit interface because I didn't understand it enough. This is again about. I was so taken by the creative and the idea that I didn't put enough into the execution. I didn't partner with the right technology people and we built something that was just very janky and it was way too early. Now had I built that 10 years later it would have been rather great.
- [45:30]
John Evans
That would have been rather good, wouldn't it?
- [45:31]
David Droga
Rather great. But it was an amazing experience, amazing learning experience because it. And because you know the premise there, I sort of did it with Smuggler and actually publicists were a partner in that. That was when I. Because when I resigned from Publicis I wasn't to start Droga 5. It was to. I said I wanted to start this entertainment network and I explained to an advertising network. I said it's going to be an advertising network that doesn't hide the fact it's advertising. Because most, you know, I'd come from where advertising had to be the best advertising. But you kind of, it was a trade off. You didn't pretend to be advertising. You just do stuff that was really interesting, engaging and entertaining. And this was, let's be overt about the fact we're advertising but let's make it so helpful to those who know what they want. And we built this thing and we had, I think we shot 200 hours of content. We had four full time hosts. One of those hosts was, I think it was his first job was Michael B. Jordan, the actor.
- [46:21]
John Evans
Oh really?
- [46:22]
David Droga
Yeah. It was a fantastic, fun thing to do. But it was too early. We didn't have the cameras to be able to do it properly where you can do it now. I didn't have the tech expertise and the connections to build something and audiences weren't quite ready for it. And clients, I mean we had maybe 100 different clients ago. I mean it was, I was really. It so should have, could have been one of those ones. But it was just.
- [46:48]
John Evans
You are right because you have just described the content creator industry, haven't you? The creator economy. 100% is exactly that, isn't it?
- [46:56]
David Droga
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was just 15 years too early. Yeah.
- [47:00]
John Evans
Now, there's a lovely little quote in the article you wrote which struck me. You said the size of the idea is 50 times more important than the size of the budget.
- [47:07]
David Droga
Completely.
- [47:08]
John Evans
Which I thought was.
- [47:08]
David Droga
Was always 100%. I mean, ideas are the thing that are contagious and spread. Yeah. You know, I mean, and there's no, there's no ceiling to the size of an idea. There's just no. Or lifespan. There is an expiration date and a, and a. And a ceiling to a budget. Now, if you can combine the two, then it's unbelievable. But if I had to choose, if I had to choose every time, if someone said, you can have the best idea with a small budget or a terrible idea with a massive budget, I'd choose the great idea every single time. And that's again, proof point about why you should pay for thinkers and ideas and creatives. Because the proof's out there all the time. There's been Super Bowls where the most memorable thing is a tweet. You know, I mean, the Coinbase ad cost, probably the catering budget of every other thing. There's things on the Internet that just, you know, I just think that a great idea, and sometimes it doesn't always have to be just in communication as well. Sometimes great ideas, you know, half the ideas that a lot of the. These Silicon Valley billionaires have very, very simple ideas, just great ideas, you know.
- [48:20]
John Evans
And you mentioned super bowl as well. What would you say if you flip it? You talk about budget there. What would be the best campaign you've done on a small budget? Well, quite a few examples, actually. Well, a lot.
- [48:33]
David Droga
Yeah. There's probably, I mean, Coinbase was obviously one because it was just so against the grain and so cheap and just fun to make it sort of. It was a middle finger to everything, which is part of the spirit of the. Of crypto as well. It's a middle finger to, you know, capitalism and convention, all that. And I loved the fact that, As I said, 20 million people, literally, I think it's gotta be the highest IRI ever on that. But also 90 million people didn't get it. I think the one we did in the beginning were early droga five days, which was if we made it for Newcastle.
- [49:05]
John Evans
Oh, I love that.
- [49:07]
David Droga
Which was just absolutely, like, how do we celebrate the fact that we can't afford to be on the Super Bowl? We've got enough money just to be a bee in your ear and buzz and just create something. And also, again, context and just Play with the rituals and the gamification of the ridiculous nature of the scale of the super bowl and who's the competing and sort of like an arms race and just, you know, we just paid enough for an emerging celebrity to be this person researching storyboards. You know, the most cliched story we wrote and all that sort of stuff. I mean, the irony is we could have made that today because of AI, but it wouldn't have been better. No, it wouldn't do what? I mean, like, we could have actually afforded to make it, but it wouldn't have been better because the story was in the fact that it couldn't be made. And it was raw and primitive and everyone was up as upset. And it was again, you know, there was great humor in the fact that we were scrappy and had we turned around and said we made this commercial and because we. It would have just been a. Yeah. And again, it was sort of a rubbing up against. But the right spirit of humor for the Super Bowl. That was a good one to make. The Australian tourism one, the Dundee, that was a lot more expensive, but that was fun. Very fun to make as well. And then the sort of. The scale of budgets went up. We had the one from our UK office, which was very big budget, was the Amazon one, which was very successful. The Ellen DeGeneres one.
- [50:32]
John Evans
Oh, that was genius. Because in my day job at System, when we measure all the super bowl ads, and that was like number three.
- [50:40]
David Droga
Yeah.
- [50:40]
John Evans
Out of all the super bowl hours that year. Because it was funny, like, brilliant story. Loads of emotion in there.
- [50:44]
David Droga
Yeah.
- [50:45]
John Evans
And you know, exactly what it was.
- [50:46]
David Droga
It was exactly.
- [50:47]
John Evans
I mean, product demo in the most.
- [50:48]
David Droga
Yeah.
- [50:49]
John Evans
Clever way.
- [50:49]
David Droga
Right. And I think. Oh, actually another favorite. Gosh, I've forgot how many ones I like was. Again, it was expensive, but it was the audacity of it was the. Because we were doing Game of Thrones, I convinced Bud Light to let me kill their mascot.
- [51:03]
John Evans
I remember that. Yes, yes.
- [51:04]
David Droga
Remember, Bud Light wasn't our client. Game of Thrones was. And they were like, we want to do a Superbot commercial. And we just thought, well, you know, what's the most Game of Thrones thing to do is, you know, to kill. We sort of, let's have the mountain kill someone. And the thing is, it was outraged. This is again about saying earlier is great ideas, they just break down barriers and great people want to be part of great ideas. And obviously, there's a certain momentum and hype for Game of Thrones, but I had to go and on the side I literally had to send an email through a friend who worked at AB in Brazil because I didn't want any paper trail to the. The person who was running Bud Light in America to set up a meeting with he and I in a coffee shop because I didn't want it to get out. Because if he did agree, it couldn't get out this thing. And if he didn't agree, you know, because as I said, I'm basically going to tell him, we have to kill your. Your mascot and the Bud Knight. So just do it. I was laughing so much thinking about this meeting that we're going to present it. But I really thought it was the right thing. But in my head, I was thinking, if he says no, I'm. My next meeting is going to be with Burger King. We're going to kill the Burger King. And I don't know if I told this one. And then. And if he's. If he or she said no, we were going to go to Coke, and I was going to have the White Walkers wipe out the polar bears. So I had this.
- [52:24]
John Evans
Good.
- [52:24]
David Droga
So I had this fallback position. But again, one of those things where you think the things that would be so hard to do. And I remember presenting to the client and took them through why this? And they're no fools. They realized that, you know, Game of Thrones is a very, very, very. This was going to be the finale pop culture that's highest order. And I was also very respectful because, you know, the Bud Night was being done by Wyden and Kennedy. And I said, look, we'll. If you approve it, we'll pay for the production of the first part. You have to pay for the media and also that you have to pay for your butt, but we'll pay for our part of it. And so we had the director and shot all the mountain stuff. But the second that the Bud Light Bud Night thing is, we had Wieden people come on set because I called Colleen at Wieden and said, listen, I've just sold something to your client, but I've said to respect for you, I won't try and get my fingerprints on anything to do with the Bud Night. Your team can. They were like, up for it. They were like, this is amazing. So then. But my only nervousness was, how do you keep it secret? You mean. So that was. That was a lot of. So. I mean, Super Bowl's been very good to me. I've had so much fun with some of the super bowl stuff.
- [53:37]
John Evans
I mean, the common theme through all that is the role of humor, isn't it? And that's the role of humor.
- [53:41]
David Droga
And also being subversive in a way that is rewarding. You know what I mean? Like, there's always a. A twist that's not just a twist for the sake of it. The twist is relevant to the. Like, the Coinbase twist is. Is relevant to tech people, do, you know, I mean, who are sort of embracing that sort of stuff of, you know, simplicity, you know, retro, but also the, you know, QR codes. And the beer one, you know, Newcastle. I mean, that's right for that sort of Southern. I mean, that northern English humor of Woe is Me, you know, I mean, like, oh, we can't afford one bum, you know, that sort of stuff. And whereas all the American beers are all like, yay, and all that sort of stuff, the. The Game of Thrones one is dark. Do you know what I mean? Just what, like a nothing is sacred type of thing. And that was the whole thing with Game of Thrones. I mean, how many times you watch stuff and your favorite character was killed, you're like, what? You know, you can't kill that person. You can't kill her. You can't kill him. So that was the thing. Like, of course we should do that. So there's just. I love the surprise is worth. It's not just a rug pull where it's like, whoa, that's crazy. It's. It was. It's. It's faithful to the brand. I always think that's as well, really important that whatever ideas you have, the creativity can't be at loggerheads with the personality. The brands. Like, sometimes you see things on television, like what? That's not the personality of that brands. Whether it be humor, whether it be esoteric, whether it be, you know, I'm always like, that's just a creative or a company forcing their personality to sort of hijack that. And I'm. That's why I'm big on. Our job is to amplify things for our brands, not to sort of try and have one flavor. You know, I loved being part of a company that could do that, but they could also do, you know, Prudential or New York Times or Under Armour or, you know, like very different tones. Our job is to be faithful to them. It's not to input, you know, Droga 5 or a song personality onto them. And I think that was one of the reasons we were also successful. We didn't. There wasn't a Droga 5 style. There isn't a Droga 5 house style.
- [55:49]
John Evans
Yeah, that's true. Actually, when I looked at 37, the breadth of the work is.
- [55:54]
David Droga
Well, that's. I was very fortunate, you know, I was very fortunate to hire a lot of very talented people of very different skill sets. You know, and it was. There was the teams that were more comedy, and there were the teams that were the more artsy, and there were the teams that were much more, you know, esoteric or gamified. And, you know, like, there's. I imagine for lots of different companies, you have, you know, different flavor profiles, different, you know, basketball shoes are very different, football cleats and, you know, like, you've got to have different. And I always wanted our. Still to this day, even with song, our job is to burrow in and be the very best of what we can be. But in service of this client, in service of their consumer, in service of that. You know what I mean?
- [56:41]
John Evans
You used a phrase on, I think it was the Puma campaign about untapped potential, which I thought was very interesting, because a lot of marketers kind of get bored, don't they, of their work and keep on changing it. But you're talking about the strength of the idea and how it. It could have gone on. And it reminded me. You talked about a smuggler earlier. Actually, I was on Lucas Aid in the UK and we come up this amazing platform called Made to Move. It's brilliant insight. As human beings, we're all designed to move, right? And we decided our purpose was to help. Really, really simple, right? Let's help get the nation moving. Healthier, Healthier nation, all the rest of it. And with this amazing film with Auntie Joshua, because he was about to do his biggest ever fight. And so the idea that the team pitched is before he goes out to his biggest fight, we're gonna take the entire ad break. I think it's like three minutes or something. And we're gonna show this little film of him being born, taking his first steps, gets into trouble with the police, ends up in jail, comes out, gets a job on a building site, learns to box as rehabilitation, and ends up, you know, in the biggest kind of fight. Just show that human story arc kind of thing. And actually Smuggler were the team that worked on it. And the. We won some cans for it. I mean, it's just like magical, you know, but it was like done on a. But the. The platform we were building was this. You know, we wanted to make the next kind of Nike, you know, just do it and build this kind of made to move kind of movement effectively. And, and I remember I, I was only like kind of there two years and then I remember a couple of years later, oh, the team had just changed the idea, changed the platform.
- [58:07]
David Droga
It's hard that I always think it's.
- [58:08]
John Evans
Really hard, isn't it?
- [58:09]
David Droga
Well, I think there's two parts that there's something. Sometimes things need to move because platforms have been sold that are disposable. And that's what I mean about. They're not grounded in truth about the company or the consumer or stuff like that. And other times when they do have these great potentials, people get. Markets are feisty and people come in and they want to prove themselves and they think the first thing to do is discard something and start from scratch. I'm like, if there's ever a poster child for that, 911 is a great example car. Do you know what I mean? Are people bored of the shape of that car? It gets tweaked, it gets, you know, it hasn't, it's, it's, it's how it's revered, hasn't changed at all. And it's still, you know, I mean, sometimes you people discard things way too soon because. And there's ways you can deploy it. And I also. That's why again, now is such more interesting time because it's not just a battle of storytelling and, and experience. I mean we can build things that stand the test of time, create experiences, you know, change commerce, add value in different ways. That's. I mean, again, that's why I loved the sort of what we're doing with Song. We're not just. We can build programs and new business ideas, not just communication ideas and that I think that's where we can show up and contribute and create these new interactions with consumers. Yeah, it's fantastic.
- [59:22]
John Evans
We did this system, this project with Effie's actually we looked at the Effie database and we looked at loads of campaigns over a US UK long period of time and we looked at what was making campaigns successful. There's some things in there that you expect like emotion versus logic or how well branded things are and that kind of thing. The biggest lesson was the role of time. Literally compounding it was basically the campaigns that were consistent, that stayed. Not that they were the same thing every year, but the idea was faithful, all those kind of things. And you literally just saw this big gap emerge over time where, you know, the brands were similar and then literally over time the consistent ones.
- [60:04]
David Droga
Well, that's the thing. I mean, again, it's sort of. It's going to sound contrary to what we were saying earlier about, you know, people like certainty. And I, I mean that, you know, that it's weird because people like the certainty of the category or the people who make those decisions and that leads to dullness. But then, as you said, when you've got something good, you can always take it up a notch. I mean, that's why I liked, you know, the five, seven years we did stuff for the New York Times. We did. It was all built around the same sort of platform, but it was every different version of. It was a unique experience of it. You know what I mean?
- [60:37]
John Evans
That was. Describe that a little bit for anyone who hasn't come because that's really powerful. The New York Times work.
- [60:42]
David Droga
Well, it started very simply in Droga 5, where it was just, you know, the truth is worth it. So it was just very much. It wasn't necessarily selling the paper, but it was just selling the sort of the virtues and the belief system of the paper, you know, and it was also context because you look at, you know, the truth was up for grabs and then. But it was. Every story was told through the journalist work, through the, you know, all the content that was ever shown was stuff that was created in the newsroom and from the photographers and everything. So we again, the real sign of creativity is knowing when to use it and what to use. And sometimes you can be, you know, we don't try and get in the way of things that are even better. Like nothing we create is going to be stronger or more powerful than the actual news stories and what's happening in the real world. We've just got to create a platform that allows to bring that alive. That's again, going back to the start. Like it's such a privilege to have all these storied brands and important things, you know, some. And we can toggle. I used to love walking down the corridor and sometimes, you know, I'd walk out of one room reviewing work for save of super, laughing my face off. And then I'd walk into another room and talk to a team about trying to save journalism and begin. Really caught up in that. And then you walk to another room. Of course, who doesn't want to have that job? Who doesn't want to have that job? And they're responsible. But it's such a great responsibility. That's why we work our asses off to deliver great stuff. The way to preserve that more so is now, as I said, is to understand what's going on with technology and not be quaint and just keep that in its purest form. That was relevant a couple of years ago. The expressions of the executions, as I said, the intentions of what we're trying to do, but use the new tools to do that.
- [62:17]
John Evans
I mean, something that struck me as well, reading through your list, was the power of simplicity and that there was. I didn't know you were behind this is NHS campaign. Oh, yeah, that really struck me. And that was emotional and it was so. If you describe that it was so simple.
- [62:31]
David Droga
Well, that was one of the first things I did when I went to London and, you know, with Frank Budgen, you know, Duncan Howard and, you know, it was. That was an amazing campaign. That's for the national. You know, it's for the nspca, which was sort of the child abuse, which is the fact that, you know, is so bad. And we just. It's one of those things where things like child abuse, just like animal abuse and also like, you know, famines and things like that, people become so immune to it or they shut it down because they don't want to deal with it. So I like the idea of creating a film that juxtaposed a father, but the kid in the picture was. In the imagery was a cartoon kid and had all the sound effects and silliness of cartoons that are sort of, you know, almost mask everything. So as the father is. Hate to say it, like beating the kid or hitting the kid or kicking the kid or putting a cigarette on the kid. You know, it has that cartoon sort of elements where it's like, oh, you know, bump and all this sort of stuff. But it's so you sort of. It was so different way of seeing it that you'd still watch it and get to it, because it still felt abstract, it didn't feel real. You weren't nowhere sure whether you'd laugh or cry. And at the end is, I hate him in saying this because it makes me upset, you know, when he throws the cartoon kid down who pees his pants down the stairs and it goes, bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce, ding, ding, ding, ding. And then it pans down the bottom of the floor and you realize it's a real kid. And it was. The point was, like, real children don't bounce back. And because. But it was. Again, you know, our job is to. Is something like that, is to. How do you make a very, very, very crucial message? Get to the. Get to the audiences and make a point instead of them just shutting down or feeling like. Because sometimes you can deliver Hard messages, too hard. And people, our job is to understand context and all that sort of stuff. And. And you're thinking about simply, I. There's no question. I. I'm a very simple person. Like, I really am. You know, I. I'm a very emotional person, or more emotional than most. You know, almost every decision I make is emotional. And there's immense power in simplicity. There's immense power. It doesn't mean that complexity can't be beautiful too. Sometimes it can, if it's appropriate, but I don't need to prove any. I never thought we needed to prove anything to how many layers or how complex. And, you know, we've done very complex things that are very ambitious. You know, that the Jay Z being thing, like multiple thousand spinning plates type of thing. But the idea is simple. The premise is simple. So my starting place is always, if the idea is simple and true and the strategy is robust and real, that gives you permission to be outrageously creative because there's something to come back to. If there isn't a backbone of reasoning and strategy and ownership of it, then all creativity does is take you further away into sort of confusion and to an abyss. But if there's something that you always go back to a red thread back to something that's permanent, then you can be as creative as you want.
- [65:33]
John Evans
Totally. In fact, for a fact, on my career, I think I spent most of my career trying to take the complex and make it simple for people. Because the complex thing, complex answer is usually the easy one. It's really hard to get to simple. And yet, I mean, human nature is. We love. We love easy, right?
- [65:51]
David Droga
We love easy, but we also love to be able to understand things. You know, a wonderful thing you can do for anybody is explain something to them or make them understand something. That's a gift you can do. Yeah. You know what I mean? Starts with our kids. And also, you know, that's why again, and I'm obsessed with, you know, I love meeting people that are obsessed that are passionate about anything. Like, my ideal dinner party would be go to a dinner party. And there were 10 different guests who are obsessed with the most random things. And that could be horticulture, that could be whale noises, it could be ceramics, whatever it is, basketball. And just getting out of them a lifetime of their passion condensed into an hour. Like, I feel like that's the greatest gift. And I always go down rabbit holes, which is dangerous. I had a conversation. This is no exaggeration. This is fantastic digital designer that we hired who's won An Academy Award, actually. And he is in LA and just. We were at a dinner recently, and his passion is bonsai trees.
- [66:47]
John Evans
Random.
- [66:48]
David Droga
We talked for the whole time about bonsai trees. I've literally found myself at home going. And I made him send me links to bonsai trees. I even said to my wife, until she's basically, you know, metaphorically slapped me down, was like, we are not getting a bonsai tree. I suddenly was like, we got to get this bonsai tree. Look at this Saturday. It was just so. And I got caught up in every part of it because it's the lure and story and craft and you know what I mean? I just love. That's why we love sport. Right? Like, that's why, you know, I love American football now. And, you know, when I lived in Australia, didn't understand it. I used to laugh at it, thinking it was, what this, you know, stupid. But as soon as you understand what's at stake, what matters in this play, what this player is, their backstory, what this city is like. We love to understand things, and then it makes you care about things and that, you know, so that's why I give that random segue story. But that's also. Our job is. Mark is like, why should someone care about the brand? Why should they care about the message? Why should they care about what used to. Like, our job is to find that connection. And sometimes it's wrapped in humor and sometimes it's wrapped in mystery or, you know, or experience and, you know, virtues that it's. That's what a privilege.
- [68:00]
John Evans
Yeah. Couldn't agree more. Well, maybe round off, then slightly left field question, then. What's the most Aussie thing you've ever done?
- [68:09]
David Droga
Wow. Most Aussie thing I've ever done. Well, the most Aussie thing is, I mean, this is an easy answer, is, you know, pack up a bag and just leave the country and happily travel around the world. Because that's where, you know, at any given time, you know, Australia has a population of 24 million. I think it is. I think I read some stat once that said 5% of Australians are abroad at any time. Wow. As I said, usually working in a bar or running a company.
- [68:34]
John Evans
Yeah.
- [68:35]
David Droga
And we, you know, we're easy travelers because we like to sort of, you know, because we're young country, so we sort of assimilate well and, you know, we're always up for a good time. So I think that's probably the most Aussie thing I've done. But part of that is also because my mother was Danish So I also had this European thing. She was sort of pushing me around out to sort of go and explore. But I'd also like to think this is me now projecting or hoping, making work. Even though, you know, there's been a high intensity that I've worked at and have hold people to a high expectation, keeping it very human and you know, always leaving room for humor and personality. Not just mine, but people's like always leaving. I think that's an Australian thing. Yeah. You know, into always making sure that. That there's. That can exist that's not checked at the door. I think that's probably.
- [69:30]
John Evans
And probably that skill set is going to be even more in demand, isn't it?
- [69:33]
David Droga
As absolutely.
- [69:34]
John Evans
As the world carries on.
- [69:35]
David Droga
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, these are the things that are lost in, you know, that's also something that's lost when people work, you know, remotely. And it's also lost when people get too corporate and too rule follow, you know, just. They get too wound up and filled with angst and, you know, in. It's a human business after all. Every business is almost. Except for the AI business. But, you know, but even that is, you know, I mean, I just feel like.
- [70:04]
John Evans
Well, that's quite an Aussie thing, isn't it? Not to take it too seriously.
- [70:06]
David Droga
No, look, I take, I take the alibaba. I take. Yeah, that's. I think that's a better way of saying I definitely take the opportunity and the output and the, the, the business very seriously. But I never took the how we do it and how we hold ourselves too seriously. Yeah. Because as I said, that goes back to. Aren't we the lucky ones? You know, we got paid to solve problems and use our imagination to think and have fun and laugh at stuff and cry at stuff and. And you sit across the table from people that give you some of the most immense challenges ever and you're like, wow, they're sitting across asking me to help with that. That's unbelievable. And we have the skill sets and, you know, we're an industry filled with some of the oddest people in the world, which is magnificent as well. And that makes it more interesting too.
- [70:51]
John Evans
It really does. Well, good luck with the next chapter. Wherever it takes you, whatever. It ends up being excited to see it. And thank you very much.
- [71:01]
David Droga
No, I'm looking forward to just weaning my way and just sort of take, as I said in my, you know, catching my breath for the first time. But I'm a creative, so I'm always going to be doing stuff and I'm still got a lot of things here I want to achieve just in a new version.
- [71:17]
John Evans
Great stuff, David. Thank you so much.
- [71:19]
David Droga
Absolute pleasure. Absolute pleasure.
- [71:21]
John Evans
Thank you very much for listening or watching Uncensored cmo. I hope you enjoyed that. If you did, please do hit the subscribe button wherever you get your podcast. If you're watching, hit subscribe there as well. I'd also love to get a review. Reviews make a big difference on and other people discovering the show. So please do leave a review wherever you get your podcast. If you want to contact me, you can do I'm over on X at Uncensored CMO or on LinkedIn where I'm under my own name, John Evans. Thanks for listening and watching. I'll see you next time.